647: Baking Hits, Flops, and Absolute Keepers with Sally's Baking 101

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0:31But it's funny, when it was time to photograph this recipe, I had my stylist hired for the day. My oven broke. The galette you see in this cookbook, I made it at my neighbor's house, and I walked it through the yard into my kitchen where I shoot my recipes. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbarg.

0:59Sally McKinney is the creator of the wildly popular website, Sally's Baking. She's known for providing clear, concise instructions, tips, and tutorials to make every recipe approachable for home bakers of all skill levels. On this episode, we talk about her great new cookbook, Sally's Baking 101, and what she's excited to bake this fall. I hope you enjoy it. And at the top of the show, it's the return of three things, where Eliza and I talk about what is exciting us in the world of restaurants, cookbooks, and the food world as a whole.

1:35Eliza, we are back with three things. It's been forever. How are you? I'm good. I'm refusing to admit that summer is almost over. Summer ends in like the 20th of September. That's what the farmer's almanac says. But some of us in this room who like to eat apples, I think, are a little quick to draw on the fall front. Oh, fair enough. Not to name names. Okay, okay, okay. So we have a lot to talk about. I feel like I just haven't seen you, and I think we did some traveling. But do you want to start with three things? Yeah, I've been doing some really fun restaurant meals here in New York. I think that especially August is a really great time to go to new restaurants.

2:12A lot of people are out of town. It's, like, easier to get seated. And I went to E Cavallini, the new Four Horsemen restaurant, which was really special. And I'm happy to report that if you, for some reason, can get off work and get in line at 4.30, like before the restaurant opens at 5, it's very easy to get seated without having reservation, which is exactly what I did. Great tip to definitely line up. And Nick Rotola, all signs point that he has opened up. It's a new phase, a new era in his career. Yeah. And I think the restaurant is great. You know, they're doing a lot of like really special Italian dishes.

2:46They're doing something that I had at Four Horsemen in the past, which is called gnocco fritto, which is like these pillows of fried dough that they have like a melt in the mouth kind of shaved cured ham on top. Very satisfying to bite into. They're doing farfallone, which is like giant bow tie pasta, basically, with Calibrian chili butter and smoked pancetta. It's kind of like the elevated version of the pantry meal that I would make myself at home late night. And even the vegetables are really great. I had a chilled cucumber dish, which has a colatura de alisi. It's like an anchovy-based fish sauce.

3:21So it's a very cooling cucumber that has this kind of salty punch on the end. For dessert, melon sorbet, classic. I had a really nice meal there. I also chatted with my friend Kat Wang, who is in the kitchen at Four Horsemen. I was like, hey, is it making it easier for you guys? Like, is the line shorter or longer now that the new restaurant is open? She said, absolutely longer. It seems like people are coming to the block on Grand Street and sometimes even like splitting up their group and getting in both of the lines at once to see where they can get in, which I would say is probably not the right way to handle that.

3:56I would just pick a line and wait it out and see. But it's exciting to see them growing. I love that report from Il Cavallini. I feel like you should definitely stick with one line. Don't try to play that game. I agree with you fully. Yeah, I mean, I would do that at like TSA maybe, but certainly not at like a nice restaurant. Yeah, that no cofrido sounds great. I'm heading to Mila Romagna next week, so I'm going to have some no cofrido myself. Yeah, you'll have the real deal. The real deal. What's your first thing? My first thing is also in the New York City restaurant train. And I was doing some research for future episodes.

4:31And I have to say, Eliza, I went to three restaurants in one evening. It was under three and a half hours, and it was so enjoyable, and I didn't feel crazy at the end of it. Okay, what were the stops? Okay, so the stops are this. I started at Eel Bar. I had never been there, and I had heard so much about it on the show from you, from many guests who went in Taste Check have been there and showered with praise. So Aaron Crowder is the chef and partner there in Servo's, and really, really, really great meal. the pickled cucumber and anchovy gilda, the highest quality anchovies. I just love this dish.

5:12It was probably my favorite, and it was like one of the early courses. There was a cantaloupe and copa, which is like their planned prosciutto and melon. And we have our cool melons now, I read in New York Magazine. Weiser's got to watch their back. I think he was probably using that one. And then the cantaloupe is at the end, you know, he's doing it with seasonal peaches, stewed in cava with a little bit of light cream. And like, what a great restaurant. What a great vibe inside too. Yeah, I really like the front bar area. When I went, I think the Gilda was one of my favorites just because I love an anchovy, but they also are doing these like stuffed piquillo peppers.

5:46That was good too. Definitely had that too. Next stop, Servo's. Hadn't been there in a long time. It's probably 21 or two I went there. Still one of the most uncomfortable restaurants in New York, I have to say. Where did you sit? I sat on like the side. Oh, the little table. The little tables on the side. Those are – but whatever. It doesn't matter. The restaurant is really, really good. And I wanted to go and I went. And it was – I had the cockles, which, you know, to me with a little bit of great sourdough, I love that. A bowl of cockles and some sourdough. Like perfect meal. I was – I knew I had a third stop so I wasn't going crazy.

6:21Highlight was definitely the seabream, which I think they've done that hard-seared fish and different fish over the seasons. but Seabream was in season and they were so clean, so perfect. What a great restaurant to have a few dishes and then head on to your next stop. Yeah, I would say Servos is like one of my all-time great date spots, especially if you sit at the bar. It's a great bar. And we didn't sit at the bar. We sat at those little tables and the bar is where you want to be because you can see the action too. It's an open kitchen. You can see all the action. Incredible service at both of those restaurants.

6:53But I had a third stop. I made it to Bridges finally. Finally made it to Bridges. And I wanted to put eyes on bridges because I've heard all these things about it. Some good, some bad, but mostly good. And I really, really, really think Helen Rosner nailed it in The New Yorker when she called it the gastronomic version of quiet luxury. Totally makes sense. I think Helen's a brilliant writer when it comes to these turns of phrases, and it was a great observation. Because, you know, you've got this room that has, like, a lot of very cool people in it, very fashion-y. Ran into Andy Baragani having a birthday meal in the back room.

7:28And definitely a scene, which I love about New York City restaurants. It's like all positive. I would never feel negative towards having a scene because that's why we dine in New York, especially downtown. I like the food a lot. I think that there was a Monday night and it was a really casual service. And I thought a couple highlights was I finally had, obviously, my first visit, the cured tuna dates and onions, which is, I think, one of their signatures these days. What a crazy pairing. Have you had that dish? No, but I do feel like it's something I've heard people talk about. It's a really, really great dish.

8:02And it has really nice ponzu on there. And I just think it's a really well thought through dish. And I would order it again. The highlight, though, was definitely the dessert. I had the Vinjean gelato, which I think Vinjean, when you have it in any form, really, it just is this flavor that takes you to crazy places. It's like distillery, winery, you're traveling, you're going to not in New York. And it's like in this gelato form, it was just exceptional. And I really enjoyed these three restaurants. And to be honest, and especially late summer into even early fall, like you can book these restaurants.

8:39Like you can do that one, two, three. Like it's I wasn't using Flex or Context to get these. I think I was just using Resi. Go out to these restaurants and hit a couple up. You don't have to like order everything. And it's a great way to catch up on New York City's dining scene. What's your next thing? I'll keep the New York City restaurant Rex going because I got to go to Bong, which is the new Khmer-Cambodian restaurant from the pop-up Krong Cambodia. It opened in Crown Heights, I think just over a month ago. And I have been waiting for this restaurant to open probably for years. Like I have been loving going to the pop-up when it was around, even during the pandemic.

9:15I remember like going to some random building in Crown Heights and like picking up some food that have been prepared. I think Cha, who's the chef, with Choppy, like Alexandro Chaparro, are just such a great duo. And it's such a fun restaurant to go to. It's in the old Ursula space, so it's not very large if you've been there before. But there's a lot of energy packed into it, I would say, and also some tables out in front. And I just had so many special dishes. I had, I think, the best corn dish that I've had all summer, which I eat corn every single day that I can in the summer. They do a whole fish with herbs and like different dipping sauces.

9:52They're even doing like calamari stir fried with salted duck egg. All really special. And then the dessert is coming from Mina Park, who does the pop up 99 here in New York, which is mostly like kind of cream cake style pop up. She's doing a dessert corn cake right now on my corn crusade a little more. That was like my favorite corn dessert. I loved it so much. Also, as of recording, I would say that But Chow, who's like the main chef of Kronk Cambodia, who was nine months pregnant when I was in the restaurant, had the baby. Baby is healthy and born. And now there's like a whole other side project that they're working on, I guess, together.

10:29But I think it's really special to get to eat at restaurants in New York for a long enough period of time that you can, you know, go to a pop-up, be able to support it, and then see it have like their own space to really kind of root in and build something. And I think it's just a special place to go. I can't wait to visit there. Yeah, that's bong, which is a Khmer word for like friend or like a familiar greeting for someone. And Mandy Schneier wrote a very positive review. Yes. And I loved, obviously, your Meg does terrific work. And they had the photo gif, you know, firing at the top. And you can see the vibe in the room.

11:03It's amazing. Yeah, my friend Dominique, who is one of the people I ate with at dinner, is in that photo. And she has been to bong three times since they've opened, which is a feat because it's pretty hard to get their reservations. I think they open at midnight. I believe 20 days out. What's your next thing? My next thing is a novel. It's the debut from Jason Diamond. It's called Kaplan's Plot. Jason's a friend. He's written for Taste and we've known each other for a very long time and I'm having him on the show soon. So we'll talk more about this novel, but I read it very quickly. I wish I could have read it slower, to be honest, because it was that good.

11:36I just love when novels, you just don't want them to end and this one ended way too soon. Jason's story is a crime thriller based in Chicago in the 1920s, though it's a generational novel with a more modern day narrative. The story is essentially about a character named Yitz Kaplan, who is a immigrant to America, comes from Ukraine, and he is without parents and kind of figuring it out in the Maxwell Street neighborhood of Chicago, which anyone who knows Chicago is the Jewish quarter, Jewtown called many things and just a place that Jason brings to light. Absolutely. For the first time I've read any novel that he that this neighborhood has been portrayed this way.

12:24Elijah Mendez is the grandson of Yitz Kaplan and he's the more modern day protagonist. And there's a great narrative there. Jason and I will talk about the food, but I have to call out wonderful scenes from Manny's Deli, which is a really famous deli in Chicago that my father went to as a kid and really is still operating today. And Jason obviously is a food writer, but also a novelist and writes about culture, just nails all the details here. It's a remarkable work. It really gives a lot of boardwalk empire. So if you followed that show on HBO about a decade ago, it's kind of the same era. It's still the gangsters of that era.

12:59And I just think I'm so impressed by this novel. I hope everyone reads it. I loved it. Yeah, congrats to Jason on the debut novel. That's huge. Yeah, what's your last thing? My last thing is just, I think, a really genius idea. I've been going to a lot of block parties. It's a classic Brooklyn summer move. And at a couple of them, I've seen this small business called Greensicle, which is a green juice popsicle stand. Yes, smart. It's really so smart. And I don't know why I haven't seen this elsewhere before. My favorite flavor that I had is basically like the ginger turmeric, you know, like energy shot kind of juice, but in frozen popsicle form.

13:38But they also do a classic green juice. They do one with beet. I think it's a really cool, like small Brooklyn business. And you can follow them on social media and see like what other block parties they're going to be at. But I don't know. I have high hopes. I feel like I could see this being in Erewhon or Whole Foods or something one day. In those cool little sleeves that you get from like a cool cooler. Exactly. It's like an Otter Pop, like Ice Pop style. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah, totally. The long skinny guys. Yeah. Very nice, especially when it's hot out. I love that you can get juice and get your greens and all your probiotics in the frozen popsicle form.

14:14It's so smart. No one wants to just take a shot. I mean, I do like to do that because it feels invigorating when you have that ginger like hitting your. esophagus. But I think the Popsicle form is so fun, especially for summer. Nice call. I can't wait to check that one out. What's your last thing? My last thing is a final. It's a shout out to Traverse City, Michigan. I was able to attend the first Traverse City Food and Wine Festival and it was a major hit. I got to share the stage with Anthony Porosky, who is incredible. I got to vibe with him and his partner and their dog. And I love those guys and I hope to hang with them in the future.

14:49I also share the stage with May Lynn and Sarah Welsh, two tremendous chefs who've appeared on Top Chef and various shows. We talked about the behind the scenes of reality television. I'm going to run the Anthony interview on This Is Taste at some point. Just a terrific interview. But Traverse City food was on fire. I hadn't been there in a couple of years. I've been going there since I was very young. I'm into northern Michigan near the Lelanau Peninsula, just one of the most beautiful spots in all America. and a couple shout outs restaurant wise, Common Goods Bakery, which is doing great lamination.

15:23They do danishes with, of course, the regional cherries. You've heard, I'm sure, of Forever City cherries. They're like the main product from there. Yeah, absolutely. And they also are doing just really terrific like all day cafe cuisine, you know, like kind of Italian inspired. And the last one, and I know you'll appreciate this. somebody spent time in the Midwest. Modes Bumsteer. It is a classic Midwestern prime rib restaurant. Did you ever get a chance to go to one of those when you're in college? No, and the whole time I was like, what is a bumsteer? So I had to Google that myself. So bumsteers are like old cows or old steers, and there's a whole genre of restaurants that use bumsteer in the naming convention of their restaurant.

16:05It goes back to the early 1900s in America. Wow. I was very curious about that myself. So, but the vibe inside is amazing. It's like Prime Rib Restaurant, 1970s. Our server, wonderful woman, had been working there for 40 years. And this is one of the few restaurants in Traverse City that's open past 10. So I love that. I think Sarah Welsh had given me the recommendation, who's a local chef there. And the Prime Rib, I, of course, ordered the Prime Rib. It came with a wedge, of course, with ranch, baked potato. I hadn't been asked about a baked potato in like a decade. like what do you want on your baked potatoes like you're serving baked potatoes of course wrapped in foil and the prime rib is served with creamed horseradish so it was like a like a lot of like creme fraiche and horseradish like whipped up it was really good it was like in the carafe that you can like dip onto basically everything what do you think you're you're sounds so good i love an institution i think that's always such a great place to go when you're traveling and you can really like sink into like what is the food history of this place and i'm going to be thinking about creamed horseradish for a minute i love it well thanks for sharing your three things you too

17:19hi there it's matt co-host of the show we are currently running a this is taste listener survey and we'd love to hear from you do you have a guest request a restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on three things what about a lesser known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair. You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible. That's the This Is Taste listener survey link in our show notes. This episode is brought to you by Aura Frames. If you're one of those last minute shoppers, you might know the feeling.

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19:18Terms and conditions apply. Sally McKinney, welcome to This is TASTE. Great to see you. Great to see you too. So nice to meet you. Well, we have a lot to cover. This book, Sally's Baking 101, it's not your first book, but it feels kind of like your first book. It feels like my first book because I haven't written a book in eight years and I'm with a new publisher and I feel like the pressure's on and I was just really excited to write this book. I took so many years off of writing book to kind of grow my business and my knowledge in the kitchen and grow my family and I was just ready for this big project.

19:53I love it. It's a terrific book and happy to have you here at Clarkson Potter. Yes. And I want to ask you about, let's go back to 2011. And you're thinking about maybe posting online, posting a recipe. What's going through your head at that moment? I was following some food blogs at the time and I loved to bake in the kitchen. I kind of grew up in the kitchen. My mother and my grandmother kind of made everything from scratch. I grew up around it, baking and things like that. And when I was fresh out of college, I was working in, well, I worked at a restaurant first. And then I worked at just in an office.

20:31I was an assistant to a team of financial advisors. And it was fine, you know, just a regular nine-to-five job. Not much creativity, though. And so I would find myself, you know, going home and making cookies and cupcakes and brownies and those kinds of things to bring into my coworkers the next day. And then they would ask me for a recipe, and I would type it up or send it to them. And then I thought one day, wouldn't it be great if I could just put all of these somewhere online so I could just send people to the destination to get the recipe? And I, you know, had a little free – I started a little free blog account.

21:09And I put in my first recipe for peanut butter blondies. Ooh, nice choice. I love peanut butter. Yeah, great kickoff recipe, Sally. I fully endorse that. Oh, yeah, with Reese's pieces. And so, so delicious. And I still have that up on my website today, you know, 14 years later and fun to look back on. And then the rest is kind of history. I started just publishing more and more. And I started, you know, when I first started, I would just input recipes as if it were just like a little recipe diary of sorts. And over the years, I started, you know, treating it more like a business and a regular publishing cadence.

21:51Well, I mean, the business grew because the audience grew. So how did people start finding you? Because I know your community is rabid. They love what you do and much respect. That is something that is very difficult. And I love that you have this very special and robust community. I know. I am so lucky. It's been so wonderful to connect with so many bakers around the world, a lot of home bakers. Everyone is super vocal. I receive emails every day. I mean, my team will attest to this every day about special memories people have made, making my recipes, some really heartfelt stories. and I consider myself so lucky to do this and truly, and I say this a lot, but hearing from readers and having them share their stories with me just kind of is motivation to keep going and reminds me why I'm doing this and it's to teach others and connect with others and learn from each other.

22:48I learn a lot from my readers too and I consider myself really, really lucky. And I think, you know, It all started from that one silly little decision to publish a recipe online with honestly no thought whatsoever. It's so organic. I love that. There's no agency telling you what to do. No, not at all. Let me ask you, Sally, why are people baking right now? I think it just is a safe space. It's something that brings just genuine joy. It's also like very methodic and it's nice to follow something and read instructions and bake something that you know is going to bring yourself and other people joy.

23:36I mean, I have never had someone turn down a dessert. I mean, I literally just brought in dessert to all of you guys. You did. It was a muffin with zucchini that you grew. It was delicious. Chocolate chips inside. I loved it. Thank you. Yes. And so it just brings people joy. It's just a happy, wonderful thing to share with others. And I've always felt that way, especially when life gets loud and chaotic and stressful. It's nice to have that comfort in the kitchen. It's really a wonderful sentiment to know. You know, it's like the instructions are there. It's like a project. And I think that soothes the brain when there's crazy things happening in all elements of life.

24:16I agree. I agree. Whether you're making just a really easy cookie recipe or a more intense baking project, they can both bring you joy in different ways. So, Sally, take us into the test kitchen. I mean, how do you develop your ideas and how does it start? And then where do you go with the testing? Because I know you test all these recipes many times to get to the perfect recipe to publish. A lot of work there. Yes. A lot of work. It's a lot of work. And I feel like it's definitely grown over the years as I've been able to expand my team. And we, you know, sometimes coming up with a recipe, it's usually inspiration from other things I'm seeing online or requests from readers or something that I think can fill in the gaps on my website.

25:04and then I, also in my book, and I, you know, start researching a recipe or I'm taking information that I've learned from developing a previous recipe and I work off of that. And then lots of tests, lots of various tests, lots of post-it notes and lots of just little recordings of what we did and lots of different drafts and lots of mistakes. And, you know, I have this wonderful team and we work together to kind of build off of each other and to create what we think is going to be the best of the best and lots of recipe flops along the way. And I really like sharing those with my readers. I like to share with them the test process and the baking disasters.