648: From Buzzy Food Brand to the Menu at Taco Bell with Zab’s Miles Soboroff

27:26Initially, the idea was to do a Zab's Taco Bell ranch sauce. Nice. Which uses our St. Augustine style hot sauce. And so we're going to let them decide. And that's what we've always done is sometimes chefs will ask us, hey, what do I do with this? And I'll tell them a few things that I like to do with it. But at the end of the day, they're the artists. I want them to tell us what they want to do with it and paint their painting. You know, we just want to be a part of that. Taco Bell is Taco Bell. You know, we're thrilled. We're honored. PJ and I got to go down to their headquarters and like they made a bunch of dishes for us to try.

28:01And it was cool that they actually wanted our feedback. At the end of the day, we trust them to do what they think is the best thing to do with it. So how's the business doing? We think we're doing great. You know, we've been doing this for five years. We started in farmer's markets in Los Angeles. us and now for me to fly out to New York and see people enjoying our hot sauce. I was at Reveille yesterday for breakfast in Soho, the same owners as Raul's. It's amazing to see people enjoying our hot sauce. So in that way, I think we're doing really well. But as a business, yeah, it's very hard. We need to be discovered in a place where we can stand out.

28:35So that's why we're really focused on restaurants. And restaurants are great because we're fortunate that they'll buy our product from us and we don't make a ton of money there. It's, you know, one little bottle at a time, but they're helping us spread the word and build brand awareness. And then we also need to be in places where our consumers stock up. You know, we can't ask them to come to our website. If they prefer to shop at the grocery store at Whole Foods or Sprouts or where the Fresh Market, wherever it may be, we need to eventually be there. Or if they prefer to shop on Amazon, we want to be there too because we want it to be convenient to them.

29:09We want to be a part of their life and meet them where they are. And so we're trying to do all these things at once. And we're trying to be as disciplined as we can be. And it's tough. The grocery business for a small food brand is very challenging. It's expensive to get on the shelf. You've got a little slice of real estate that is very coveted. You're paying rent. You're effectively paying rent. And you got to spend money to get people to know about your brand. And you got to move units or you're getting kicked out of there and you might be buying your product back at the end of the day. So we've had some great successes and we've had some failures, admittedly.

29:42And we've learned our lesson, which is for us at this point in time, trying to really focus on the restaurant business for Zabs and get people to try it and know about it and then layer in the grocery stores in those areas in close proximity to our restaurant presence so that people have tried it or heard about it from their friends and then going to the grocery store already somewhat familiar with it. And so we've got to get the sequencing right. We've got to be patient and we've got to be really focused. So right now it's restaurants first and then really thoughtfully layering in grocery as it makes sense and cross our fingers.

30:20How many doors are you in on grocery right now? Probably about 800. We're in half the Whole Foods stores in the country. We're in Sprouts. We're in the Fresh Market. Some other regional stuff. You know, you mentioned Erewhon, like Bristol Farms, New Seasons in the Pacific Northwest. And then a bunch of little independents. You know, we work with a lot of specialty stores, and those are awesome to me. The butcher shops, the cheese stores. Yes. Those places are so cool to me because a lot like restaurants, they're very experiential. You know, you know the owner, and they're recommending stuff to you, and it's very personal.

30:51And that's huge. Our philosophy when it comes to marketing, if you can call it that, is I want you to hear about Zavs from anybody but Zavs. Absolutely. And so this is like a lot of hand selling, going to specialty stores and just reaching out, sending them product, getting them to sign up. Yeah, man. It's exciting. I mean, for me, I know there's so much hard work and risk in founding. I mean, for me, that would be the coolest part is just like reaching out to people and getting to know local businesses. That's the beauty of it. As hard as it is, I know, we know we can't necessarily predict or control the outcome.

31:27but I'm already winning because I get to have so much fun. I'm in New York city. I get to go to restaurants that I want to try and meet people and form friendships and connections. I got to meet you through doing this. This stuff is super cool to me, you know? Um, so it's already such a positive, enjoyable thing in my life. And I love the way we're doing it. And I love, I love that we go one place at a time and just try and stay within ourselves and hope good things come out of that instead of trying to be everything to everybody. You're five years in. I mean, have you taken on investment? Are you still keeping it friends and family and keeping it light?

32:06No, we have. We've taken on investment and that comes with its own set of complications. And we're also very lucky to have people that want to back us and see us succeed. But, you know, it does put some pressure on. It puts you on the clock a little bit. It sure does. People want to see you grow faster. And that has helped us in some ways. And we've made some mistakes as a result of that. But the key is that we're learning from them as quickly as we can, iterating as fast as we can. But, yeah, we needed some investment because we manufactured our own stuff from the beginning up until a month ago.

32:39So we had a commercial – we've had three different commercial cases in Los Angeles. And the state of California is pretty strict about canning from a food safety perspective, which obviously makes sense. And so we needed to get certain equipment. And then we needed team members to help make the hot sauce. And then it's expensive to get on the shelves. And you got to travel around to go and do what I'm doing and selling and visiting restaurants. And so we needed some investment. And we're very lucky to have it. And it ranges from, you know, random, not random people, but individuals who are just enthusiasts.

33:13Yeah, small checks to restaurant owners and operators who love the product and saw how their customers engaged with it to, you know, some proper funds. But at the end of the day, we got to stick to, I think of the brand as a child. It's like it's got to grow at its own rate and it's got to be who it's going to be for it to be successful and have the outcome that we want. We want Zabs to be new Tabasco. We want it to be around for 100 plus years. I think you're on your way. I mean, it has obviously a heritage aesthetic that you've chosen and it's just such a good sauce. Thank you. But it has to happen over time.

33:51Yeah, man. It has to evolve the right way and people have to keep choosing it and opting in. I don't want you to feel like we're forcing it upon you or that we need things to happen on a certain time frame. We want people to tell their friends about it, enjoy it, buy it again, rediscover it and re-fall in love with it all the time. This question is from my wife Tamar. She's a big fan of your brothers. Oh, awesome. He's a celebrity in his own right. He's on NBC, Jacob. And, you know, he's really, when he started doing his thing on television, it was a fresh voice. What's your relationship with your bro?

34:28Is he Zab's spokesman? Is he sliding into the Today Show when he can? It's really funny you say that because people all the time ask me about that. You got to get Zab on the Today Show because Jacob is kind of like a guest host on the Today Show. He's filled in many times. Yeah, he's good. He's good at TV. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. I'm extremely proud of him. It's super cool to see. People think, I mean, okay, so for me, for my brother to be on television is cool, but it's cooler to me to see him doing what he loves. That's the real important piece to me is that he's on top of his game. He's so passionate about his work.

35:02He loves talking to people. He loves talking about real stuff. And to see him doing it at a high level is amazing. It's just as inspiring to me as watching a chef like doing their thing, like Brooks at Superiority Burger. and so people ask me oh you got to get on today's show of course like they they're featuring different products all the time we actually cannot have zabs on there because of mbc standards of course so it's actually backfired in a way that we can't have zabs on there because of that but jacob our relationship is awesome jacob has been so supportive of what i'm doing i'm so inspired by what he's doing um he's got friends i mentioned black seed bagels earlier jacob's freshman year college roommate at NYU is Matt Kliegman, one of the owners of Black Seed Bagels.

35:46So I'm very fortunate that I have that relationship because of my brother. And so we do like very different things, but I think what's similar is storytelling. Jacob is very good at talking to people and getting them comfortable to share how they're feeling. And that's what we're trying to do with Zab's is storytelling. We want you to feel slow and it's not just about hot sauce, as you said. It's about an ingredient that has heritage, that has story, that hopefully makes you enjoy that moment a little bit more. I mean, he could at least, like, slide it into Al Roker's dressing room, green room, just, like, get him a cup.

36:22Al knows food. I mean, Al's is a great palate, great evangelist for food. Well, to be fair, Jacob has gifted. Okay, gifted. To many of his colleagues. Okay, great. For Christmas, you know, holiday stuff over the years. So I should give him credit for that. Okay. And I'm very grateful for that. But I don't expect him to do it publicly. He's a journalist, and he's got to maintain his integrity, and I would never want him to compromise that because he's doing such good, important work while I'm making hot sauce. You're both doing important work. At least in this studio, I consider them both important.

36:59I appreciate that. But he's done more than his fair share to help support our little Zav's mission. Hi there. It's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on Three Things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible. That's the This Is Taste listener survey, link in our show notes.

37:38Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt. My friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there. ButcherBox is a true exception. I was sent a box of premium beef and pork and was blown away by the quality and variety.

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39:02Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. Miles, and this is Taste. We ask guest and brother to start in Taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? I'm ready. The worst vegetable. I can't do raw onions. I love any kind of cooked onion, raw onions. Can't do it. My wife loves them. She's Persian. She'll eat like a quartered raw white onion like an apple. And I can't believe it. That one's tough for me.

39:41My father was a salesman, and he would never eat the raw onions. It just was one of his things. With one exception on a great burger. There's a place called Yellow Paper Burger in Los Angeles. Yeah, yeah, totally. To answer one of your questions, they have one of our pumps. Yeah. And if they do it really thin sliced and they ice it to take some of the edge off it, then it's palatable to me. but raw onion's tough. The best fruit? Strawberries. Being in Southern California, you know, we're close to where they grow some of the best ones. Harry's berries. You got Harry's. Insane. Yeah. What is your typical breakfast?

40:14Eggs. Any kind of eggs. I like sunny side up eggs, some spinach. I'm pretty simple when it comes to breakfast, but love eggs. Obviously with a little dabble. Dab-a-zabs, of course. 100%. Gotta have a dab-a-zabs on it. Usually I'm going with original for breakfast, actually. Um, yeah, I don't know how to make hash browns very well, but anytime I can throw some Zabs original on hash browns. I love it. I think a deli bacon, egg and cheese in New York needs a little dab of Zabs. I just came this morning from Edith's shout out to Alyssa in the West Village, her new location, had a sausage, egg and cheese with some Zabs on it.

40:49And it's delicious. Love that call. Is there a restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead? Boulevard Deli in Minneapolis. My grandparents, uh, Jewish Deli never got to go. And I mentioned earlier Mort's Deli in Pacific Palisades. Grew up on it. Loved it. Used to get the turkey melt and wish I could taste that again one day. Amazing. Yeah. What's the best dessert? Anything. A pie from Fat and Flour, Nicole Rucker in Culver City. Shout out to Nicole. What a great episode we had with her. So good. It's become a fan favorite, actually. And I love, I love, I love her pies. Everything. The key lime is incredible.

41:25So good. She serves it at Found Oyster. my wife and I had her apple rhubarb pie that was incredible recently banana cream pie speaking of banana cream pie also the banana cream pie from apple pan oh cool incredible good choice now let me ask you can can zabs be incorporated into pastry into dessert is that possible yeah funny you should ask that like I think most people think of hot honey as a pizza thing and that's a credit to Mike's Hot Honey. You know, started in Brooklyn at Pauly G's, and he's been doing it for a very long time, very credible in that lane. We made a Hot Honey, and I don't really try hard to compete with Mike's in the pizza lane.

42:06They've done too good of a job there. I think it goes really well in pastry. I think on ice cream, Hot Honey is underrated. And, you know, incorporated into, like, okay, so it's not really dessert, but last night I went to Yellow Rose. Oh. One of my favorites in the world. It is still one of my favorites. It's been open five years. Incredible. Queso, and of course, their desserts. I didn't even get to dessert. The chocolate, you didn't get the chocolate yellow cake? I did not get to the dessert because they gave me the cornbread. Oh, yeah. And the cornbread had like a honey butter, and I wish it was a hot honey butter, but it was honey butter with some pecans.

42:46Yum. Yum, I love that. And sliced green onions, hot honey on cornbread or in any kind of butter. But yeah, in the pastry occasion, I think hot honey works. I'm going to say like pizza with St. Augustine, that's working for me. It's great. You know, the St. Augustine style, you mentioned it's kind of barbecue-ish. Yeah, exactly. It is tomato-based. We make sort of our version of a ketchup as the base of that. So it does blend pretty seamlessly into pizza or into pasta sauce. I know that's going to like make some purists head roll, but. Yeah, I mean, it's not traditional Italian flavor profile, but, you know, what the beauty of pasta is that we we love eating it and sometimes we don't want a marinara it just adds a little tiny element of this like lingering back end heat yeah try it i mean why not get some zabs and do a dab i mean it come on dab zabs please i love i love that last one a big one for you what is your favorite sandwich oh god that's impossible um the blt from breadhead in los angeles incredible with they use our St.

43:45Augustine style hot sauce. Langer's number 19. Probably one that stands out to me most right now, a place I went with my wife last year, Denver, Colorado, Little Arthur's. Oh, I don't know. Formerly Little Arthur's Hoagies. Now he does other stuff too. He made a sandwich called his Ode to Wawa. He's a Jersey guy. Yes. We love Wawa here. And it was maybe the best sandwich I ever had. Turkey provolone, heavy mayo, pickles, pepperoncini, incredible. And he made a Philly cheesesteak. To be fair, I haven't spent a lot of time in Philly, so I don't have a baseline to compare it to, but that was incredible.

44:26Little Arthur's in Denver is amazing. Dude, get those pumps to Philly. Get yourself to Philly, then get the pumps to Philly, I'll say. Yeah, you know, wherever they'll have us, wherever people want the pumps, we would love to be. And like I said, we're honored every single time. Miles, this has been so much fun. I hope you come back in a couple of years, tell us all about Zabs. Thank you so much, Matt. I appreciate the opportunity.

44:49Tyler Sharp, welcome to This Is Taste. It's great to meet you. Nice to meet you too. Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to talk a little bit more. So before we get to your book, just tell me a little bit about Modern Huntsman. What does this publication strive to teach readers? Sure. Well, I appreciate it. uh so just a little back little background my I spent my career in the hunting industry as a photographer and filmmaker and a writer um I traveled to over 40 countries filming all over the world and I kind of saw the good the bad the ugly in my opinion um I didn't grow up as a hunter um I was around it a few times I grew up in Texas so it's kind of part of everyday life there and in some cases but I graduated I went to USC film school graduated from film school and when I was 22 moved to Africa to start filming hunts.

45:41And when some of my friends in Los Angeles found out that that's what I was going to do, they had these really emotional reactions. And some of them got very upset and were mad at me. And I hadn't been yet. So I didn't know how to talk about it. I didn't know how to defend it because I didn't even know how it worked. And so that sort of observation was an underlying theme of a lot of our work. And then after spending my career and And documenting a lot of the stuff obviously started to form my own opinions on what hunting is about or what it should be about, how it plays a role in conservation.

46:12And a lot of the hunting organizations I was working with, in my opinion, weren't doing a great job of communicating with non-hunters. And it was kind of this combative, defensive tone. And I just saw a major communication gap there between people who hunt and people who don't. And the experience that I was having in places like Pakistan and Russia and all over Africa and India and Nepal and these very inspiring cultural and in some cases mystical experiences. You don't have to speak the same language as someone to still know how to connect through hunting or use sign language and tracking buffalo in Africa or whatever it is.

46:52And when I came back from these things, there wasn't really anyone focusing on that side of the story, or at least in my opinion, in a way that allowed people, let's not an official step, but let's call it the 80 to 85 % of the global population that doesn't hunt. How do I tell that story in a way that they might find interesting or for sure aren't offended by? And so that's really kind of what the genesis of Modern Huntsman was. We started as a biannual publication in 2018. but I used to work for a lot of magazines. And so I knew what I didn't want to do. And we, we basically have a creative studio that partners with, with a handful of brands and organizations.

47:32And we strategize and collaborate on stories and, and you know, photo campaign ideas and things like that. Some of which we include in the book, some of which we, you know, hand deliver back to them. So we really intentionally designed the experience to be purely editorial. And I mean, we all grew up reading National Geographic. And at a certain point, you know, unfortunately, the first six pages of the books ended up being like erectile dysfunction ads, you know, what does this have to do with anthropology or history? And so that really, you know, it was, I guess, just kind of right time, right place.

48:07And when we launched, we sold, I think 10 ,000 copies of the first issue in 2018, or something like that. And it just sort of launched us on this trajectory that kind of validated that there was a space for that and that people wanted to hear, you know, there's, there's, we can call it fine art from the field, right? You can call it like diplomacy for hunting. There's all these different terms we can use, but really, really what it's about is just showcasing the best of hunting, fishing, ranch, ranching, land management, wild food sourcing. That's a big part of what we do is work with a lot of chefs.

48:40It's a great summary. And it's you've really I think our listeners will really be drawn to what you're doing hunters or not, because I think you hit a lot of topics we love to cover on the show and in the pages of taste as well. And take me back, though, to USC film school. Sure. What takes you to Africa? You're not a hunter. So how do you end up on hunts in Africa right out of film school? Destiny is the only way I can describe it because I had no experience. And long story short, my dad used to run a store in Dallas that did screen printing and embroidery and vehicle wraps. And I helped set up all the equipment and used to work at this store.

49:23And it was next to, it was like in a kind of a strip mall. And it was next to a place called U Edit Video. It was this random place where people could bring in their home videos or whatever and have a DVD made. and the owner of a safari company from Tanzania walked in there and said, Hey, I've got all this footage. Can you guys, you know, help me make videos. And also I'm looking for a cameraman to start filming these hunts in Africa. And my dad was just standing there when this guy said that. It's amazing. And he, you know, was like, well, my son's about to graduate from USC film school. Maybe you should hire him.

49:52And the guy was like, okay. So that's how it started. And then obviously I had to follow through and, and, um, you know, it took a lot of effort to like actually get there, But when I did, I mean, I feel like I went through a boy and came back a man because I was this was 2006. It was the middle of nowhere in Tanzania, like, you know, three hour bush plane. This was before iPhones, no contact with the outside world other than like, you know, a five dollar a minute satellite phone at the time and just got thrown into the wild. Right. And had lions come in my tent and, you know, chased by elephants and black mambas and anything you can think of.

50:30Um, and so, yeah, there really was no way to plan for that. Right. Um, and like I said earlier, I just, I, I went in there with very wide eyes as an observer and trying to understand how does this work? Um, and I feel like I wrote, I do a lot of writing and I remember writing this in my journal. I said that it's like a good pair of boots that you got to break in really well before they're comfortable that I had to get my ass kicked and I had to get bit and scratched and burnt by everything there before you start to feel comfortable in Africa. it. But once you do, once you spend the time there, it feels more like home than any place I've ever been.

51:04That's very common. It's not unique to me. And yeah, that's when I just, I stopped wearing a watch. I could tell you by looking at the sun within five minutes, what time of day it was. I learned how to track. We were eating all wild game. I learned Swahili. And so it was just a very unique entrance into what hunting is to be in the middle of the bush and basically living a sustainable lifestyle in harmony with the animals and the villagers and the whole community, which is not common, right? Yeah. But obviously an incredibly life-changing experience. So I want to zoom out and ask you a question.

51:43I grew up in West Michigan, so I grew up around a lot of deer hunting and bow hunting particularly. Lily. And I have a picture of a hunter that I think is quite different from what the modern hunter is. I think, honestly, our listeners probably have many pictures of what hunters do, how would they look like how they speak, and how they treat nature and, and the animals. Let's zoom out and let me ask you what does the modern hunter look like? That's a good question. And honestly, that's why we chose the name modern huntsman instead of hunter. Because a lot of times if you say the word hunter, people have this idea in their head of what that is.

52:27And whether that's where they grew up, or they saw it on TV, or they saw it on an anti-hunting campaign on social media, or whatever it is, there's a lot of that out there, right? A lot of those stereotypes. And so the word huntsman is a very old word. And the derivation that we're sort of basing this on is kind of someone who knew the ways of the woods, right? A huntsman was somebody that was a hunter, but they were also had amazing knowledge and woodcraft, right? They were naturalists, maybe they were poets, the whole warrior king thing. And so, yeah, we really wanted to sort of create a differentiation in the word to be able to point and kind of create a new definition in a sense.

53:09Right. And so I don't know if I'm qualified to tell you what the modern hunter looks like, because that's that's obviously a very broad spectrum. But I can say what we are trying to curate, right? And the sort of definition and personality that we've focused on, right, is call it maybe the thinking hunter, right, the conscious hunter, somebody who, and honestly, a lot of people who read our publication or come to our wild food dinners like last night, or come to Scotland or Africa or Colorado or Montana with us on our trips, aren't hunters. and it's because you know we we honestly don't even often say that we're a hunting publication we say we're a collective of artists and writers and naturalists focused on the responsible use of wild resources because really that's what it's about right there's only so many wild places and wild things and populations globally are expanding and that puts pressure on those things and so it's more about the conversation around how do you know you responsibly navigate those things But at the same time, you know, not pointing fingers or slapping wrists or calling names or making people feel guilty, but more so bringing information to the table about, you know, your impact as an individual.

54:26Right. And if you want to go hunting or if you want to go fishing or do these things, these are some things you should consider. And if you've never done it, hey, here's some interesting people that we think you should maybe reach out to or go on a trip with. And so, yeah, I think that in a sense, sometimes I call it the Hemingway effect, right? If you asked me if we were at a cocktail party in New York City and somebody's like, hey, Tyler, what do you do? If I led with, oh, I film hunting safaris in Africa, wouldn't go well, right? That wouldn't be received well. It might offend some people. I might be asked to leave.

55:03Particularly in Brooklyn. I think Brooklyn is actually probably where that would perform the porous. Just make a observation. But if someone asked me that question and I say, I run a company that does storytelling and wild food dinners around Hemingway-esque safaris with fishing and mountain climbing and a little bit of hunting, same thing, but presented in a different way. And I found that saying it in that way allows me to have an ongoing conversation with that person in Brooklyn or wherever it is. It doesn't get their defenses up. And then all of a sudden you can kind of focus on the common ground, right?

55:42What do we care about, right? Okay, we both love animals. Great. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about, you know, traveling to Iceland or whatever it is, right? Oh, we both like the chef. And before you know it, that's what the conversation becomes. And then quite often people end up being, you know, interested to hear more or, hey, yeah, you know what? Send me that link to that story. Or you know what? I've never been to Scotland. I'd like to go. And so I think that to come back to your actual question, I kind of like to say we're like the hunting misfits, right? Where there's this incredible community of people worldwide who enjoy literature and art and music and good wine and food and travel and adventure.

56:25Some of it involves hunting. Some of it doesn't. And so I think that's really we're trying to focus on that. And I kind of rewrote our mission statement in our last issue, but I read a quote from Edith Wharton, who's a Pulitzer Prize winning author from the 1920s or 30s. But basically she said, there's two ways to be the light. You can either be the candle itself or the mirror that reflects it. And so that's honestly a major goal of mine is to just be showcasing, inspiring people, great stories, wonderful places, outfitters who are taking amazing care of whatever landscape they're in. um and yeah and that's kind of uh you know in a sense in a sense what what we've built right and people have sort of gravitated towards yeah well let's talk about the book it's filled with contributors it's it's a very cool format and i'd just like to hear about a few of the contributors and how you brought them to the pages so yeah obviously we're independent publishers ourself right we've we've published we're on our 15th uh it's a 200 page book we do twice a year and people have been asking us for years when are you gonna do a cookbook when are you gonna do a cookbook and we're like yeah we should probably do that um and then just again by chance ended up meeting uh someone who is a publishing agent and he was like he started asking some questions and about how many issues we've sold and we're like i don't know we sold like 100 000 copies of of our magazines and stuff.

57:50He was like, really? That's huge. We're like, oh, that's good. I had no idea in the publishing world. So long story short, he was like, put a deck together, put some of these names and these characters that you've been working with all these years, and let's just put it out there. So he basically started a bidding war with a bunch of publishers. And I remember having a conversation. We obviously, we published with 10 Speed Press, obviously, which is a division of being a random house. And I remember talking to Kelly and Emma. And this is ultimately why I chose to partner with them because I was like, hey, we're not trying to just do a cookbook, right?

58:28We're trying to win a James Beard award. And I was like, most cookbooks are boring, in my opinion. And so I was like, what are the rules I have to follow? And they, I can't remember exactly, but they were like, you got to have 50 recipes. And then there was something else about formatting or something. I was like, okay, cool. We're going to break the rest of them because we want to do something that doesn't sit on your shelf all year until the one time around Thanksgiving, you're like, oh, we have a cookbook. Let's pull that out. So we took a different approach with this to be very editorial in nature, to be more about, yeah, the philosophy and the story of why these people do what they do.

59:03And I mean, there's a lot of times, you know, you always hear about restaurants failing or something or other, and you're like, why? That's such a hard business. Why would you do that? And then you meet some of these chefs like we have in this book, And because they're artists and they're passionate, and that's the way that they support and love people is cook food. And so we picked, there's nine chefs in the book. Some of them wouldn't even call themselves chefs, to be honest, from a wide range of places and backgrounds. Some are professional, some are not. But yeah, we wanted to kind of curate an interesting mix of people.

59:36There's three James Beard Award winners in the book. and then we had four essays. So Terry McDonald, who is our advising editor, he's the founding editor of Outside Magazine and was editor-in-chief of just about every publication out there. Legendary, he wrote the foreword and then Jamie Harrison, Jim Harrison's daughter wrote the intro as well. She wrote an incredibly moving essay, which she read last night at our launch dinner. Rick Bass is another famous Montana writer and Chris Dombrowski, who is our editorial director. So we wove those in throughout the sort of biopics of each chef. But our dinner last night was with Chef Eduardo Garcia, who's a Montana native.

1:00:19I guess you could call him a celebrity chef because he used to be very in the limelight. And then there was a documentary produced about him because he was electrocuted. Just a freak hunting accident, lost his arm. There was a dead bear and was laying on a live wire. And he didn't know that and touched it with his knife just to see if it was wounded or whatever and sent, I don't know how many volts, 10 ,000 volts through his body. And he should have died and he didn't drag himself three miles out of the back country, lost his arm, was carefully to a burn unit, you know, survived, got testicular cancer, beat the testicular cancer, relearned how to cook and bow hunt and fish and is just this incredibly inspiring person.

1:01:02And so last night, so my chapter in the cookbook that I photographed was about him three years ago. We did a 400 person dinner in the middle of a ranch with bison. And they harvested this bison and made the whole menu from the different parts and flowers and local vegetables and things like that. And then, you know, there's our good friend who's also our wild food editor. His name is Jesse Griffiths. He's based in Austin. He owns a restaurant called Dai Dewey. He won the James Bearden 22 for his hog book. Great chef and great advocate for cooking with whole animals, Jesse. Absolutely legend in the game.

1:01:40He is. And I'm sure you're aware, but he won a green Michelin star last year for his Dai Dewey restaurant in Austin. And so it was funny because I asked him, I said, hey, Jesse, is there anything unusual or weird that you want to talk about in this cookbook? I don't want to do the same old thing. And he's so funny. He just had this big smile on his face and he just goes, pan fish. What I love about Jesse is obviously he's a legend, but you would never know it because he's just like the kindest, most humble person. And he's just a guy that likes to eat tasty food. So he just he is like his approach to the world is very the cooking world, in my opinion, is very childlike.

1:02:18There's this enthusiasm and wonder about it. And so it was super fun for him to get to do something that he really, really loved. And then there's another good friend of ours named Sarah Glover, who's originally from Tasmania. she uh does these incredible they're they're like shows she's wears these incredible you know prairie dresses and you know cowboy hats she's this beautiful woman and puts on this amazing show with i mean the the uh the recipes that she did for us there was like 10 animals like whole deers hanging from like old wagon wheels over fires with tactuses on you know old wagons and all kinds of stuff like that.

1:02:57And hers is very performative, right? It's very much about getting people involved, coming out by the open fire, throwing things in the coals, kind of Francis Malman-esque, I would say. And then we had another good friend of ours named Tommy Davidson is a very traditional British chef. He lives in the highlands of Scotland and cooks at a lot of estates and lodges, but very traditional Scottish base, but then a lot of wild food and fresh ingredients. And so, yeah, I mean, a very, very wide range of people from different places, Italy, Maine, Scotland, I forget where else we had, Denmark and the US as well.

1:03:41Amazing lineup of chefs. And I really appreciate the care you gave. And I want to go back to that moment where you're like, Like I went to the publisher and I was like, I don't want to do what everyone else does. And I think like you're a true editorial guy, which I appreciate going into the process. And I know Kelly and team over there did a great job giving you the space. And I love the book. It's a great just document just to have on your coffee table and pick it up and read it, obviously. and I want to close and just ask you give me a good story about just shooting on location because you as a photographer and videographer cinematographer you have seen many types of hunts that kind of informs the pages of modern huntsmen give me your wildest story wildest story sure so I would say, and this isn't in the cookbook, it's in, I think I actually published this maybe in volume one of our magazine.

1:04:49Starting strong. Yeah, yeah. So I was in Tanzania in a floodplain, right? So there's no trees and you navigate by boat. There's this like double-decker boat with a tower on top and it's 12-foot tall elephant grass everywhere. And we're looking for Cape Buffalo. you're riding driving around these rivers and you're you can't even see them you're just looking for the white oxpecker the birds on their back and when we'd see the oxpeckers you know the guide would like pull this string that would ring a bell down by the driver and he would run the boat into the bank we'd all get out take our shoes off we're walking barefoot through swamps hoping we find these buffalo oftentimes they would charge and like you know you have no idea what's going on they're running on every side of you um but there's also a lot of lions in this area and they're like unique because they're they're like aquatic lions kind of they swim a lot and as a result they have less of a mane because they're just you know climbing it out of banks and all this stuff and we're in this camp and the canvas safari tents that we sleep in um the zipper on the mesh door was broken and i was like hey we should like we should fix this because this is sketchy and they were you're setting up a horror movie right here by the way tyler pretty much setting it up uh and they were like they were giving me shit like oh you know don't be a little baby it's you know whatever okay fine um because the you know there's a there's a canvas door but it was so hot there that you couldn't close that you couldn't sleep you could not suffocate but you'd just be incredibly uncomfortable and sweaty at night so um anyways it was so hot i was like let's i'm gonna shave my head and he was like well let's do a mohawk first because that's funny so we shave a mohawk into my hair, you know, and then we go to sleep.

1:06:35And this is the last time I've ever, I ever took malaria medication. And if you've ever been to Africa and depending on what you take and how your body reacts, you can have these murderous nightmares. Yeah. Um, so I'm having this murderous nightmare, uh, and wake up. I don't remember what the nightmare was, but it was, it was bloody. I just woke up like heaving and sweating and panicking and I kind of calmed down. Like, okay, I realized it was a bad dream. And then about 10 seconds later, behind the tent, I hear,

1:07:06which is a male lion basically like announcing his presence. And I was like, holy shit, do I have time to run out here, undo both canvas flaps, pull them down, jump back in, close the zipper. And by the time I even flinched to think about going and doing that, The lion called right next to my head outside the window of the tent. So now he's essentially, you know, two feet away from me, but outside the tent. And like, okay, well, there's no time now, you know. So I just sat there. And side note, so the story that I wrote was called Badamwezi, which in Swahili means full moon. So it was a full moon.

1:07:51And this lion steps out in front of the tent, doors wide open, in the full moon. And this thing looks like a centaur. I mean, it was huge, you know, and I'm sure like in the moonlight and everything, it was it was probably exaggerated, but it steps out and it has a mohawk mane, which is an important detail there. and uh i uh basically reached down to grab the bed frame because i was like if this lion comes i'm going to try to flip the bed on top of myself you know the the the guide is asleep in the in the bed next to me right there's like through the whole thing has no idea he's like he's snoring his guns under his bed and i don't have i can't whisper like you know i'm just so as i reached down to grab the bed frame the bed creaks like classic horror movie right and this line just just turns around and just looks me straight in the eyes from like probably six yards away, maybe very close.

1:08:52And when a lion shows up, everything else gets quiet. All the bugs, all the birds, everything shuts up. So I could hear the sand as this lion, like Doug is pausing and crouched in his tails doing like the flicking cat thing. I'm like, all right, well, this is how I die. At least I'm, you know, seeing this lion in full noon. It's, it's beautiful. And it felt like a lifetime, but it was probably 15 seconds. Um, he just turned around and rubs his face on the fence and jumps in the river and swims off. And I wake up, Georgie, I'm like, Georgie, wake up. That lion was here. He gets up and of course he acts all tough now.

1:09:31He's in his underwear. Um, and, and the lion, you know, sort of goes off in the distance roaring and, and, you know, that sort of thing. And so, uh, next full moon. So exactly one month later, same tent, same lion comes back this time. The door is shut, right? But he lays on the front porch and like his body sags the tent wall in and he's, he's breathing and the tent wall is just moving back and forth. And I'm sitting there like talking to this lion. I literally, I'm like, what, you know, are you my spirit animal now? Like what's going on here? You know? And, uh, and, and, you know, he ended up leaving, but, uh, yeah, I, I, uh, I, I take that, that maybe it was my spirit animal.

1:10:15Um, I love that, whatever it was, and maybe it was the Mohawk and he was like, Hey, we're pros now. Cause we got Mohawks. Um, but yeah, that was, uh, obviously I wasn't out in the field photographing, but I was sleeping in the tent between photographing safaris. Um, and that was definitely, uh, simultaneously one of the scariest, but also one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. Um, and I actually have that lion tapped. I have a tattoo of that lion, um, because I, I ended up getting really, really good footage of him, um, at one point. And so, yeah, there, uh, I would say that one, that one qualifies as a top one for sure.

1:10:51I love that story, Tyler. It really shows the deep empathy you have for nature and, and, and animals. And really it's, it's refreshing to hear this story about what your point of view is at modern hunts been. And I hope our listeners perhaps have a different point of view about hunting. Sure. After, after listening to this. I hope so. Yeah, I appreciate it, honestly. And that's kind of what, what our mission is, right. And we have a lot of readers and subscribers that aren't hunters. And, uh, you know, there's, there's, we've had, you know, many emails over the years, in some cases from vegans who were like, Hey, look, I don't eat meat, but if I did, I could do it this way because you guys have respect and, and care, uh, for the way you go about it.

1:11:42But also the fact that we just, anybody's welcome. Right. And that we validate other people's perspectives and opinions. Um, and, and often as a result, find common ground. right? And that's the most important thing. I love that. Tyler Sharpe, thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it.

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