649: The Art of Clocking Restaurant Critics with Drew Nieporent

26:01Because people don't buy the newspaper anymore or they maybe read these reviews on their handheld. The reviews come out a day earlier than they normally would. I read about the restaurant today. It's a Tuesday. It comes out on a Wednesday. It just doesn't have the same pattern. But still, people, to your point, people need to be told where to go because they're not like us. They don't care about this stuff as much. David Portnoy, he goes to pizza places, and he says, no flop. I mean, he makes up shit about pizza. One bite you all know. And then he takes three bites, and then he's like 8.9. And meanwhile, I grew up in New York.

26:43Pizza was a nickel. When they raised it to 10 cents, it was like a disclaimer. The price of tomatoes and olive oil in Italy went up. I mean, I've never met a slice of pizza I didn't like. I love pizza. But I mean, like now, and I used to get really upset about this because we fight hard to get press. and they were giving equal press to tacos, pizza, you know, hamburgers. I mean— And they still do. I mean, you know— It's—I want to continue this conversation in media briefly, but, like, I think that that is interesting that you say that because I think, like, the great growth of food media has been moving out of the restaurants like the Montreux days of the world.

27:24But I see your point. Well, we work so hard, you know, Even when you're young and you're earning experience, to get to a certain point where you can flirt with a New York Times three-star review. And if you get one, it's a rarefied club. But then some – like I do hamburgers too. I mean I'm 12 years at Madison Square Garden. But I serve – I'll tell you what. We could do a whole other show about hamburgers. But that hamburger for 2 ,000 people a night for a Nick or a Ranger game is damn good. No, you— And there's a reason it's damn good. I don't just mail things in. No, it's obvious. A lot of people mail them in.

28:03Like the smash burger thing? Yeah. Like, think of the idea. Like, what food substance do you put on whatever cooking utensil and then smash it? I mean, what do you do then? Yeah. So that's for people who don't want a juicy, delicious hamburger. So this is a charred piece of, you know, charcoal, you know? Yeah. I mean, anyway, I could go on. The MSG burgers are great, and you've been doing it for 12 years. Last media question, Eater launches in 2005. I mean, you and I love this era of food media. Like it's like one of my favorites. This early Eater days when there's a real voice and some real snark and it's not all good.

28:40But you're really, you're on Eater all the time. Like they're covering Drew and they're kind of mean. They kind of love you in a way. I think Leventhal, clearly you and him had like a thing that was kind of fun to follow. So what was it like when Eater launched and you started reading it obsessively, obviously, and becoming part of the narrative? Well, like all media, when you get good press or they're on your side, you defend it. It's the best. The second they screw with you, it's like, ah. So I used to see Ben and Aspen. I was like, this fucking guy doesn't know anything. What is it? But they were controlling the narrative.

29:22So in other words, we want to tell our own story. but they're basically and the worst it's aversive yeah what was what was the thing when when the place was like troubled Death Walk that was to me that was like the most mean they regret Death Walk I think Ben wrote a post on Instagram for the 20th anniversary and was like that was probably a mistake and like that was mean they were mean but that was the age of the internet the era like Gawker was coming up to and that was like but like you you became a personality and a celebrity in some ways in many ways yeah like people who read Eater knew who you were and maybe they knew the Nobu stuff, but like you were like there a lot.

30:00I guess you're right. I, I, I really like Eater because I liked that, you know, out of obscurity. I mean, most of people, when they open a restaurant, they have no money. Yeah. So they, they open a restaurant and then they get discovered to me. That's the ultimate compliment. And then when you have something like Eater, which is promoting the restaurant, in a fun way. I think Ben just wrote something where I think I was at the top of his list of memorances of things that I pissed him off about or whatever it was. No, I enjoyed that time. Look, Tribeca, now that I can look back on it, it's probably the worst neighborhood you could set up in.

30:40But at one point, we were there with Moroche. Chanterelle moved to where Junkzik is now. They were in Tribeca. Boulay, several different restaurants. Every beach restaurant opens up basically across the street. Right, exactly. But the point is now you're driving the bees to the honey. You're that good that people are going to spend money in a cab. Today a cab would cost you$50 to come downtown. But back then it cost like$20 and it was expensive. And so we were driving the bees to the honey. I had Montrachet converted to Corton, converted to Batard. Each one, three stars. sold it two years ago after 38 years, and they got three stars.

31:23So a premise, 40 years. It's an amazing run, Drew. Three stars, and right next door is Frenchette. Yeah, it's an amazing run. And retaining three stars for all of those restaurants. Here's the key. Here's the key. This is what separates me from everybody else. It's like, look how big of this stupid. This was an invitation. This is an audio format, but just to be clear, he's - I'm just showing you. Yeah. I mean, like - He's showing the filmy tree of the... One time, Ed Bradley was interviewing Bob Dylan. And he goes, he says a question, I think, how did you write these songs or how did you come up with this?

31:59And Dylan's looking at him and he goes, I don't know. And I watched this and I was like, that's amazing. He admits that. But when you do something that is a real achievement or that people appreciate. And you do it over and over and over. It's not just one hit wonder. It's like many songs. I did many restaurants. Like Coppola. Everybody talks about The Godfather, but he just made Megalopolis, which everybody— What's your review of that? I watched it on the plane. Oh, wow. Yeah. Are we giving it like A-star? Because he was my partner in Rubicon, I'm not going to really pass judgment, but I don't think I would have invested$120 million in myself on that one.

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34:15Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there.

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35:25For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. I think this is a great time to segue to Tribeca Grill. and this enters a different era for you. And you found Tribeca Grill with Robert De Niro, who is a customer at Montrachet.

36:07Take us to that time when you and De Niro are talking about this new Tribeca Cinema Center that he's opening. Well, essentially what happened was, and De Niro used to do something that really pissed me off, which was this girl would make reservations. I didn't know this at the time, but she'd make reservations at three places. And so, like, you know, you're doing the staff meeting. Robert De Niro's coming tonight. And so the staff is all jacked up, you know. And then, like, five minutes before the reservation, I'm sorry, Bob has to cancel. That's so cool. Because he would choose which restaurant he's going to go to.

36:38Can't do that with Resi now. Good. I mean, that's a good, you know, that's great. When I finally was in business with Bob and I saw this, I didn't realize what he was doing back then. But now I saw it. I said, you can't do that. You know, that's really bad. So he comes into Monterey one night. He had a girlfriend named Tookie Smith. She was a model. Willie Smith was a designer. Willie Ware, he died of AIDS, but he was a great customer of ours. But his sister and Bob were dating. And she goes like this. She goes, Bob wants to know if you want to open another restaurant in Tribeca. And I'm like, you talking to me?

37:13Because there's nobody else here. And I was like, you know, it's Bob De Niro. So Tookie's like the one who's actually the intermediary. Tookie, and she was like, you know, like that, right? She's sassy and everything. So we walked up the block. The three of you? Yeah. So I'm standing in this burnt-out former Martin's Coffee place. It's huge. And I'm like, so, Bob, what are you thinking about? And he goes, uh, hummer to hummer. You know, it's like Jackie Gleason. And I'm like, so like La Coupeau in Paris. Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like La Coupeau in Paris. Yes. So, you know, I realized at that moment I would be able to do my thing.

37:52Yeah. Until the surrounding entourage of people, you know, and Bob's not that bad. The De Niro universe. Bob has a lot of hangers about, but not as many as most celebrities do. And it's in the book. The accountant is the one who got in your way, right? No. Well, the accountant was, at the end of the day, I want him over. Well, clearly. He had this like, I can't even call him a janitor, but he was on every project. So when we're building Tribeca Grill, because Bob had this, I give Bob, the most credit I give him is that the building was perfect for what his idea was, which was to have floors of creative film people, offices of film people, casting directors or whatever.

38:40Spielberg's still in the building. Yeah, he's still up there. And then a canteen on the ground floor so they could eat. It was a great idea. It's very like throwback to the Hollywood lot canteens. There's just one problem. Okay. So he's like, oh, I have a chef you should meet. I said, who's that? He says, Nobu Matsu Isa. So Nobu's Japanese. We're not opening a Japanese. Even back then, that wouldn't have been cool anyway. But so we're not going to open a Japanese restaurant. But I'm like, okay, Bob, you know, fly them in. This does not come off, this newly released Nobu documentary. What comes off is like I had some experience in the restaurant business, so I told Nobu, it's a no-brainer.

39:18We can open a restaurant anytime in New York. But he didn't know me that well, and three years later he called again, and now he's ready to do it. No, he wanted Nobu to be the chef at Tribeca Grill, which is bad casting. Now, you know, I'm the only one who knows that story because it's me. So I'm like, okay, nice to meet you. and he goes, you know, maybe one day. We'll get to the good casting later when we talk about Nobu. Right. We continue with Rebecca Grill. So he goes, maybe one day I'll do a sushi walk with you. I saw the kinship. I saw the friendship. I made it happen. You know, it's like, you know, anyway, the point I'm trying to make to you is that when I die on my tombstones, I'm going to say, Junipurna brought Japanese food to America because, you know, essentially, Nobu is just an extraordinary achievement.

40:03But anyway, we wound up hiring Don Pindabona, who had worked at the River Cafe under Charlie Palmer. His food was perfect. We got a stellar two-star write-up from the New York Times, which at that point was great. You weren't reaching for three? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. What's the menu like? No, I'm the type of person that there was no three-star aspiration there. And the last line is something like, this place is going to last for 100 years. And we did. And guess what? We wrote one review for 35 years. 35 years. I mean, the New York Times, they re-reviewed Montresay every, like, two years.

40:41I had five three-star reviews. Such when Amanda Hessler downgraded us. Oh, my God. It was like death, you know. Yeah, that's a pure bumps. And back to the Montresay story. And, like, you take extreme umbrage with a temporary critic. Right, interim. Interim critic coming in and taking away those stars from Montresay. I just found the article when she writes about Emeril Lagasse. And she slags him like nobody's business. But meanwhile, that guy was, he made the TV Food Network. Yeah. I used to walk into rooms with Bobby Flay. And Emeril was there. And I go, you're never going to be this guy. And he goes, I know.

41:23What do I have to do to be? Yeah. And then now he's like, ah. Yeah. He's 10 times more. So back to Tribeca Grill, though, you launched this menu from a chef who. American. American. So it's like, what's the food like at Tribeca Grill when you open? Well, the customers thought it was going to be Robert De Niro's restaurant. Yeah. And I don't even think we had pasta on the first menu. Extremely smart move there, Drew. And right above the book, I don't want to skip over this because the instinct would be let Bob get his way, do the red sauce thing. But you knew with your experience that doesn't have a holding power.

41:57Now, I mean, listen, Robert De Niro, like when I would visit him in the building, his office, he has a bookshelf, all books on travel, food, no cookbooks. But so he knows good food because he eats good food. Yeah. But he never, ever, ever put pressure on me. The accountants that you were mentioning, they were like, Eddie Schoenfeld should do this. Eddie Glasses. I love the reference. And meanwhile, you know. All right. Anybody but Drew. You know, anybody. But I proved my value. I think so. And the whole thing was, you know, you go from three-star restaurant, Mon Roche, to this incredible two-star restaurant, Tribeca.

42:39And then I was getting offers left and right. I used to call it the deal of the day. Yeah. And I would say no until I saw, like, all these posers who were taking the gigs that I didn't say yes to. And so I formed Myriad Restaurant Group. Now, I did take the Harley Davidson Cafe, which is like one block from where Nobu is now. And they've been showing recently the pictures of Trump with Epstein at that party. Because the opening party of the Harley Davidson Cafe was like the greatest thing you've ever seen. But like O.J. Simpson was there and Joe Frazier and Howard Stern. These are some characters.

43:16And I don't think I even talk about this in the book, by the way. I don't think you do. Because the whole point of my career, Matt, is that I've done so much. I fit so much in. At one point, I said to Jamie, I said, you know, write in the book, I said, so when are we going to get together? She lives on the West Coast. Oh, we're done. I said, what do you mean we're done? No, you contracted 250 pages. I have 250 pages. So I was thinking to myself, so the process since then, it's like a year ago. Every time I bump into somebody who I had a professional relationship with, I'm like, oh, my God. You forgot them.

43:53Well, they're not in the book for whatever. And so many of my friends are like, well, I'm sure I'm going to be in the book. And I'm like, you know, I hate to break it to you. I think there's more stories. I think this book will do well and maybe you can do more. I don't know. I'm just going to ask you, what's Donald Trump like as a customer? He's been your customer, I'm sure, for many of these restaurants. if we get into the Donald Trump thing right now I'm asking as a customer I don't want to like go well no as a customer he's just a steak and potatoes guy well give me a story Trump's dining in and Trebek and Grill the story in the book is a great story because basically they told me I met with Philip Johnson who was the god the god of architecture the four seasons he designs the building but I went actually to a bookstore to buy a book on Philip Johnson because I wanted to be prepped when I had the interview, when I spoke with him.

44:46And I'll just tell this very briefly, but I go into his office, and he was like in his late 70s probably then. Healthy ego, I'm sure. Oh, he was very quiet. He's cool back, all right. But he goes, let me show you what I'm working on. And he proceeds to show me the ugliest renderings of like cave-like structures with little porthole windows. And he says, so what do you think? And I swear to God, I go like this. I go, well, Mr. Johnson, Central Park is right there. I would think you'd try to get the outdoor indoor. And he looks at me, and this was priceless. He gives me a look, and he goes, maybe you're right.

45:19And he moves his papers over. He says, let's start working together. The next day, they called me up, and they said, he loved you. He wants to work with you. There's just one problem. I said, what's the problem? He said, you're going to have to meet our partner, Donald Trump. Now, he only owns 5%. Have you ever heard this before? So when you meet Donald Trump, let it go in one ear and out the other. He only owns 5%. Fast forward. I meet Donald Trump. Hey, Drew. Oh, you're a downtown guy. This is uptown. This is not for you. Everybody wants this, so I'm letting it in one ear and out the other. He invites me.

45:54He really doesn't want you on the project. No, he just wants whoever's going to give him the most money because the end of the story is, the end of the story is like I was just letting him talk because I have the deal. And he invites me to Mar-a-Lago, by the way, and I went. I saw Beverly Sills in a recital at Mar-a-Lago in a room of 12 people. And I had sleep apnea at the time. I was sleeping through the recital. But anyway, so I find out through my mother. My mother called me because New York Magazine said, John George von Gerichnen is going to do the Trump Tower. Oh, man. And I call Phil Suarez, John George's business guy.

46:31And I said, Phil, tell me what you did. He goes, Drew, it was Donald Trump. by offering him$100 ,000. That's it. I made the deal. Wow. And it's like, and truthfully, I was going to do a restaurant with Michelle Richard, who I would say is easily in the top five of the greatest food people that this country has ever seen. No, mostly in LA, right? Yeah, mostly in LA. Yeah. But his ideas, like one day I said to Michelle, I go, because David Burke, I thought was very talented. You like Burke. You and Burke. When he was younger, he was unbelievable. You have a real soft spot for Burke in the book. Well, we stayed very good friends.

47:09Yeah, he's cool. But he kind of hosed me too, by the way. But that's not in the book either. But one day I said, Michelle, what do you think of David Burke's food? Because we were just eating at River Cafe. He goes, I don't like Christmas trees on my plate. Oh, that's great. That's great. All right, I'm going to move us forward, Nobu, because we haven't really gotten there yet. Is this a three-hour interview? Well, no, we're going to keep it in our realm. I would love to do three hours. No, I'm joking. We should do a drive time three-hour live. Maybe we'll do a live. We can do live. Let's go live someday.

47:41I think Andrew Friedman is going to do a live one. Well, Andrew's great. He'll do a great job. So Nobu is, it opens in 94. And it's really important to note, you write very clearly in the book, when you're working with Nobu, the chef who's coming from L.A., the naming convention of the restaurant is up for debate. And you have a very strong vision to call it Nobu. Oh, you see, in the movie, which you haven't seen. Haven't seen the movie. My Israeli partner, Mayor Tupper, he goes, I always wanted to call the restaurant Matsuisa. But Bob wanted to call it Nobu. You're like, that's not true. Well, the camera's looking at Bob and Bob's like, he's got that quizzical look on his face.

48:23The neuro face. We know it. He's got the shit-eating grin. Like, okay, that's a good story. I remember it like it was yesterday because he says it to me. It was always a Nobu, by the way, always in my head. And he says it to me. I said, Mayor, Matsuisa is an electronics company. Nobu's easy. But you see, when you have partnerships, like if something's a failure, they want to blame you. If something's a success, they don't want to annoy you. that's part of the story in a way which is you know you achieve a certain thing with your partners and with the chef and the second you achieve that status they want to go across the street you know boulet was it was it was unbelievable it was so hurtful why is that with you it seems to be a recurring theme is it are you are you not are you too generous i mean no no no i i don't think it's that heavy.

49:22I think it's, first of all, I can't see myself, so I'm not looking at myself. I watch interviews that I do, and I realize I'm insufferable at some point. I don't even like watching myself, to be honest with you. I mean, I like myself a lot. I like myself, but watching myself, I realize I talk too much. But here's the thing. You're fine here, to be honest. Thank you. Thank you. With Boulay, for instance, I think they have to prove to themselves that they can do it on their own. They don't need him. Paul Liebrandt, exactly the same. Marcus Glocker, I tried to sell him, Batard. You know, the name of the book is I'm Not Trying to Be Difficult.

50:06They were difficult. But I'm Not Trying to Be Difficult infers that they see me as difficult. So I guess that's the way it is. In other words, they want to do their own thing without me to prove that they can do their own thing without me. It's fair. I mean, the assessment's interesting. It's simple like that. So you open Nobu in 94, and it's a real, it's obvious, it's a big moment in American gastronomy. The fact that you can take this style of Japanese cooking that is based in Los Angeles, but you bring it to New York, and it evolves beyond omakase sushi counter with a lot of the cooked dishes, and you put in Tribeca and you have this celebrity ownership.

50:50There's something that happens here. It's like an alchemy moment. Describe it. Okay, so when I'm about to do a restaurant, I feel it. I feel every element of it. And there was one point where I realized design, because I used to think you can just put a restaurant in an ugly place and it will work. Montrachet. because we didn't have that. It was a minimal. They used to call it minimal. I guess minimal is a design, but that wasn't what we did. Some view is quite cool. So I feel this thing, right? And I always talk about how the stars line up. If you have celebrity ownership, that's a buzz. But at the end of the day, you have to have substance.

51:37The food has to be good. Service obviously has to be up to snuff. Okay. So I did two things at Nobu. that were audacious and nobody would do. Number one, David Rockwell, tremendous, but he designs the sushi bar all the way in the back. So I come in and I go, it can't be all the way in the back. It's got to be right there. And there's two poles right there. You enter and it's there. Yeah, and it's there. And he goes, well, that's the bar. I go, okay, so no bar. What do you mean no bar? I said, we don't need a bar. You know, we had a service bar. It was a form of bank space in the vault. I couldn't take the vault door was so heavy.

52:21I left the vault door there. So the service bar was in the vault. Okay, that's number one. No bar, sushi bar right up front. Yeah, it's a set piece of the space is a sushi bar. Right. Revolutionary moment. Right. And then the other thing, which nobody gives me credit for, which is okay. I studied the labor laws. and when you had a counter, people could leave tips to the people who worked at a counter. So it was a sushi counter. You're not allowed by law to split the gratuities that the guest leaves with the kitchen. And you could theorize that sushi chefs are back in the house, they're kitchen, but they're worked at a counter.

53:05That's how stupid... These laws, yeah. Right. Like David Chang once told me, I hate the customer, you know, because he just, you know, so he built the restaurant, Ko, where there was like minimal interaction with waiters. But I'm sure at Ko, because it's a sushi counter, they split the gratuities. And I've read also at Masa, there were all sorts of lawsuits and stuff about the tips. But the fact that the sushi chefs at Nobu could share in the tip pool was part of the success. Why? If they weren't, the waiters would be making$700 a night. And the sushi chefs would be making nothing and be pissed off.

53:47Now they're part of it. There's a little more esprit de corps, better for morale. No sandbagging for the sushi counter. They're happy to be working very hard. They make tremendous money. And guess what? There's 56 nobles around the world now. And there's only one that doesn't do that. And that's an Atlantic City. Why? because the union there is that powerful. Wow, interesting data there. So you write about these early years of Nobu, a lot of ups and some downs. I mean, you had a robbery. That was an interesting piece. And then you got into a fight with De Niro. I want to know, what's it like working with De Niro on Nobu?

54:25And what's your relationship with De Niro now? Well, I'm very cordial with him now. In fact, his birthday was two days ago. Yeah, where'd you guys go? No, it was his 82nd. He had a big party. Actually, I met Paul McCartney at the 80th. Oh, cool. And that was a star-studded event, which was right next door to Tribeca Grill at La Condoverde at the hotel, Greenwich Hotel. Look, he's complicated. One of the greatest actors of our generation. It's been an honor. Honor. And I would say pretty much he's left me alone. but you know the thing with nobu is he was influenced by perhaps maybe another partner and and it's in the book i i tell the truth of the whole story but i survived it so in other words um you know if you're married to somebody and they don't want to they don't love you anymore but you love them you they want a divorce you're gonna have to get a divorce in in my case not only did I maintain partnership for 35 years, which is half my lifetime, with Robert De Niro at Tribeca Grill, and even today, you know, and he's had a number of passages in terms of different people in his life and restaurant partnerships without me.

55:53He knows deep down what I provided. And, you know, I had my 70th birthday a couple of months ago, June 4th, and he came to my birthday party, which I had invited him, but he didn't respond, but he just showed up at the end, which was, you know, for my guests there, where it was a kick in the ass. That's nice, though. It's a nice sentiment that, because, you know, the book doesn't quite articulate that, and that's fine. Right. Well, you know, the book ended a year ago. Yeah, exactly. Life goes on. But here's the point I'm going to make. when you have the fame, celebrity the notoriety that he has and we see it now in the politics of this country you know if you want to be a bully you can be a bully because there's you know you can you can you know minimalize everybody's or you know push them out of the way or whatever, however you want to characterize it.

56:59I hope the book puts forth that I survive, that I wasn't in the restaurant business to squeeze out the last dollar. I was in the restaurant business to be creative, and I was. And I did a Mexican restaurant, a Vietnamese restaurant, an American restaurant, a French restaurant. 40 of them. 40 of them. and when it's over, it's over well I'm going to leave it there Drew, here's what we're going to do we're recording this in August I'm going to have you back and I'm hoping we can do that near the end of the year and we're going to run it near the end of the year and what we're going to do then is talk about Rubicon Tracy Dejardin, we're going to talk about Corton Moore, we're going to talk about ending Rubitard and like honestly I have like so many more questions for you thank you so rarely do I say this but we're going to have a part two Thank you.

57:54I enjoyed it. And life's too short to have a bad meal. So you have to join me one day at Nobu for some Yalta jalapeno. Yeah, I mean, I've had plenty of meals at Nobu and the food is exceptional. It's a great restaurant. And I found through your Instagram the Duki Hong coincidence that you did his book. Yeah, Duki Hong and I worked at your restaurant, Semtico, when he was 15. Unbelievable. So we can talk about Arona Sanchez. There's a lot of amazing people that went through my place. That's incredible. Tremendous. So yeah, we'll talk about Family Tree. I think part two, we'll talk about Family Tree.

58:33There's so many great people to talk about. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Thank you very much.

58:41This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.