650: New Fall Cookbooks with Alexis deBoschnek & Miyoko Schinner 

25:23Totally. Totally. Yeah. I think, you know, more chickens this year and next year we'll see what happens. Very exciting for you, Alexis. This is very, very cool. Thank you. A couple of recipe questions that really jumped out. This Everything Bagel Panzanella, super fun. Hadn't seen that. Really, really original. How did you come across it? You know, it feels like a deconstructed like bagel, you know, like every, you know, all the things on a bagel. You know, I had a whole jar of Everything Bagel seasoning, which feels kind of like outdated in a way. Totally. But it's really good. And I was like, oh, it'd be fun to just use this in a panzanella.

26:00Let's like doctor it up. Yeah, it's a really good idea, especially for like late summer, early fall. You get this tomato still happening. You might not want to do a tomato salad. You need a little something else. Another clever idea, the au poivre, but with pork. Yes. Now, pork au poivre, I mean, au poivre is also like kind of a detailed kind of fussy sauce. But your positioning as something you can do during the week nights and then with pork, better pricing. Totally. I mean, pork is like really, really affordable. Totally. Yeah. And so, I mean, I think that's such a – it's so delicious, first of all.

26:36Yeah. No, totally. But it's really – I mean, it's really easy because you're just searing the pork chops just to get them brown and you're finishing it in the oven. So, and, you know, that whole thing takes, I don't know, 10, 12 minutes. Yeah. Depending on how thick your chops are. and then while that's in the oven you're making the sauce and it comes together really quickly. What's the sauce? Take us through a little bit. It's like, you know, it's shallots, cream, a splash. I think I'm using like a splash of like vinegar instead of, you know, no flambé in at home. Yeah. It's really simple but really, really flavorful.

27:07Yeah, I love that. What would you pair that with for a meal, for a weeknight meal? I mean, listen, you could just boil some potatoes. You know, you want something or like even a piece of bread. You want something to like salt up that sauce and a salad I'm like, keep it simple. You know, I'm like, I think with a lot of these recipes, I was like, you can just serve it with rice. You know, it doesn't have to be crazy. If you have a rice cooker, like, it's doing the job for you. I think you're right. I think with home cooking and especially weeknight cooking, you know, sometimes we have to live with the fact that we're having steak au poivre and maybe some potatoes.

27:39And that's dinner. Now, it's maybe not the macros you want, but like you've got other meals in the day and you're talking about just getting a dinner on the table. Yeah, I just think most of us, like we don't, you know, don't have the bandwidth to be doing like three separate recipes every night or even like, are we going to roast these asparagus for 40 minutes or whatever? You know, it's just adding more things. I'm just I was just trying to be smart about timing, you know? Yeah, I love it. The point of view is really strong. I want to talk about desserts, but I'm going to just like flip it to you.

28:11Is there a single dessert recipe in the book that you feel is like a real accomplishment? I mean, pavlova. Yeah. It's my favorite dessert. And this one is spectacular. You know, there's lemon curd, there's whipped cream, any fruit you want. It's like, it's actually amazing when you leave it in the fridge and it becomes, it kind of like melds together. It's like eating a cloud. It's so good. I love that. And is that a week? Oh, no, that's definitely a weekend. I didn't put any dessert in the weeknight recipe. It's just weeknight recipes because dinner recipes, because I'm like, you're going to eat ice cream.

28:46You're going to eat a chocolate bar. No one is making dessert on a Tuesday. Agree fully. That's the real talk. And you just have to like go into cooking during the week with that mindset that you can't accomplish. And even if you're being fed the social video content of these elaborate meals. Most people aren't doing that. You know, I'm also, you know, I think with the type of content I share, you know, I'm like, I think I'd be more successful if I was like doing the viral stuff. But I'm like, I just want to show what I'm actually eating. And like, it's not that fussy. What's tour looking like for you?

29:16New York, some upstate stuff, of course, Chicago, L.A. Love that. And I think we're capping it at that, which feels like it's like two months of stuff. And that feels like plenty. What are you doing upstate? Oh, man, there's some events in Hudson. There's something in the Finger Lakes. There's a few Catskills, something in Kingston. It's like, you know, a combination between like dinner, classes, signings. Oh, I love that. So classes, when you do a class, what's an Alexis class like? Oh, man. I mean, it depends on, you know, how many people. I've done virtual classes. I've done in person. I catered a bachelorette party where I – it was like class slash dinner.

29:53It was kind of crazy. Was it fun? It was so fun. I mean, I think the reality with a class is most people are there to like have a glass of wine and like hang out with their friends and maybe learn a few things. But, you know, something like a pie, for instance. I'll have the dough already made. Yeah. And then like, let's go out, let's go through how you properly roll it out. Let's show you how to tuck it under and then crimp it. You know, I feel like even like little light bulb moments like that really can change someone's cooking journey. I agree fully. I think it's a really nice gift to give someone a class for like a bachelorette party or a wedding present.

30:35Agreed. I think that's really smart. And I bet you're a great instructor. Thank you. This episode is brought to you by Aura Frames. If you're one of those last-minute shoppers, you might know the feeling. Ideas are running low and the clock is ticking. Here's a fun idea. Aura Frames. Aura Frames is the solution with a gift that feels personal, a little curated, and sent with love. And a gift that can be purchased in no time with a few clicks of the mouse. Aura Frames are great. They sent me one to check out and it was really cool and dumb simple to set up. I loaded photos using the app, and it was displaying them instantly.

31:12There are no limits to the amount of photos you can load, and you can customize messages with each photo. And here's the deal. You can preload an Aura frame with photos and have it directly sent to that special person in your life, gift-wrapped and all. There will be no price tag, and you can include a personalized message. Think about it. All those photos from this past summer's family reunion delivered in a digital frame. That is pretty cool. For a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting AuraFrames.com to get$35 off Aura's best-selling Carver Matte Frames, named number one by Wirecutter, by using promo code TASTE at checkout.

31:51That's A-U-R-A frames dot com, promo code TASTE. The deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast, so order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies.

32:29I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there. ButcherBox is a true exception. I was sent a box of premium beef and pork and was blown away by the quality and variety. There was 100 % grass-fed pasteurized ribeye, tri-tip, and ground sirloin for my favorite at-home smash burger recipe. George Motes, you better watch your back. For pork, they sent me a beautiful center-cut pork loin for slow roasting. I was super impressed, and I haven't even talked about the ribs, which I cooked in my Instant Pot. There was a rub of salt, white pepper, and togarashi, and I pressure cooked with water and apple cider vinegar.

33:09It was incredible. These ButcherBox ribs are amazing. For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year, plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. On This is Taste, we ask guys about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire Fast and Furious taste check.

33:48Are you ready? I am so ready. The best fruit. Peach. Okay, take me through your peach. What makes it so good and makes it great? You need to be standing over the sink. Like it needs to be so juicy that you have to be like standing over the sink or like a piece of grass. And it's juicy and it's sweet. It's like got to be perfectly in season. There's like only a few weeks to get that perfect peach. Yeah, we're there right now. We're there. Yeah, and it's the moment. It is. I was at Blooming Hill Farm. You ever go up there? Yes. Oh, my God. They had eight peaches. Oof. So good. The worst vegetable?

34:21Kohlrabi. Oh, yeah. Never, never have gone into it. Never gotten into it. Don't want it. Yeah, yeah. Can you even imagine a recipe with it or do you just? I imagine there's probably some like slaw, but I'm like, would rather put like napa cabbage. Yeah, yeah. Definitely agree. There's great subs for that. What is your typical breakfast? In the winter, oatmeal. In the summer, granola and yogurt and like whatever fruit we have growing. Definitely. What's your yogurt situation? Yogurt situation is usually like just like full fat Greek yogurt. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, you know, it's kind of a boring breakfast, but it makes me feel good.

34:55It's not. It's a beautiful breakfast. I fully endorse it. The best dessert. Pavlova. Yeah, I know. You were going to say that one because we went over it. Really, really good. Is there a restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead? I feel like if I could bring back Uncle Boone's, that would be great, just for a night. I think that's great. I think Uncle Boone's was so pioneering. And Thai Diner picked up a lot of the recipes. Totally. Different vibe, though. Different vibe. Love Thai Diner, but Uncle Boone's just for a night for me. Great call. When you're craving fast food, where are you going?

35:28Okay, I'm never craving fast food. I know, I know. I sound like such a brat, but I just, I don't eat it. Yeah, yeah. I don't eat it. Not even upstate when you're in a pinch? Never. Never? Okay. I'm like bringing my own food on the airplane. I'm bringing my own food on the road trips. Yeah. I just, you know, my husband's like teasing me, but I'm like, I just, it's not for me. I respect it. I respect it. You dodged the question effectively just then. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food. i mean i feel like tokyo what like changed my life yeah yeah i mean and and like paris too is always amazing those are good ones always good yeah and and i don't know new york la la maybe it's la yeah yeah i mean la he said i lived there for seven years and it's an incredible food city what were you what were you living in what part of town i lived in east hollywood which is now like booming.

36:21It's so weird to hear all these restaurants opening there and I'm like in East Hollywood? What? Yeah. It's a little different when you were there. Affordable. Affordable. It was great. It was great. Now no longer. I have to stay in the Catskills. Yeah, definitely. Gotta get upstate if you're thinking about making that move. I mean, it's a different lifestyle. You're not gonna have the culture of New York. It's definitely for a lot of people. Last one, your favorite sandwich. BLT. How do you do it? And I want like, oh, sorry. I was like, what is my perfect? Yeah. The bread needs to be like a little soft.

37:00Yeah. It can't be like too crusty. So much mayo. A truly shocking amount of mayo. Thick tomatoes, salted. Yeah. Bacon, very crispy. And like romaine. Always romaine, yeah. Some pepper smashed together. Again, maybe you're eating it over the sink. I did that this weekend just with tomatoes, not with bacon. Yeah, I was over the sink. The best. What's your mayonnaise choice? I'm a Hellman's girl. Yeah. Listen, Love Dukes can't get it by me. So I'm like, well, I have one choice. Hellman's is great. That's my choice as well. I love Hellman's. Alexis, this has been a lot of fun. Thank you so much for joining us.

37:36Thanks for having me, Matt.

37:42Miyako Schenner, this is Taste. Thank you for coming on the podcast. It's my delight. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to talk all things plant-based creamery, vegan creamery with you. To start, I'm wondering if you could tell me about one of your kind of early breakthrough aha moments when it comes to making vegan cheese. Well, that would go back probably three or four decades. I was living in Japan, playing around with tofu. I was already a vegan or it had become a vegan back then in the 1980s. and I was trying to figure out, well, how do you make cheese? Cheese is the coagulation of proteins in milk.

38:22Tofu is the coagulation of proteins in soy milk, but why are they so different? So I began to really think deep about that. And one of the first cheeses I made was actually fermenting tofu. I'd seen this TV show about these nuns that were doing interesting things, burying tofu in ash and miso and so on. And so I actually took some tofu, I buried it in miso, And about a week later, it had transformed from something that was very tofu and crumbly to something that was smooth like butter and had a very strong, cheesy, fermented flavor. Tofu had undergone some sort of fermentation due to the bacteria in the miso and had become sort of a cheese-like substance.

39:06So that was my first sort of aha moment. And it just sort of went from there. I love that moment. And I think making the connection between like, what is cheese? How is it developed? How can you replicate that makes so much sense. I'm curious, like I know you have such an incredible career when it comes to developing these kind of plant based dairy alternatives. Like once that was your dropping off point, did you see the potential of, wow, I could be making hard cheddar, I could make ice cream, all of these things? Or how did you kind of come to realize the full scale of what was possible with plant-based milk?

39:41Well, I think ice cream was a lot easier. So was mayonnaise, all of that stuff. I started experimenting in the 1980s. It actually culminated in my first cookbook, which was the Now and Zed Epicure, which came out in 1990. It's out of print. So, you know, you can't Google it or anything. But in it, I really started exploring what I could do with cashews. So that was sort of my foray into the whole cashew concept. And, you know, I was making creams. I was making mayonnaise, using cashews in place of eggs. I was making ice cream out of it. So I was doing that exploration. But really being able to land on a cheddar cheese was something that would take quite a few more years and experimentation.

40:29Yeah, you mentioned cashew. I think that is such a common ingredient that you see in plant-based cheese, at least today. I'm curious if there are any other ingredients that you would nominate as being especially useful in this context. Okay, well, I have my new favorite. I've moved on from cashews. A lot of the recipes I've developed for many years were cashew-based. But my new favorite is watermelon seeds. And that sounds really strange. But actually, watermelon seeds come from a type of melon that's grown predominantly for their seeds in places like India and China. And they're actually a very common snack item like peanuts are here.

41:08So they're relatively inexpensive, you know, where they come from. and it is the strangest ingredient because it makes the absolute milkiest milk I have ever had in my life. Of all the plant milks I've had, watermelon seed milk makes a milk that actually coats your tongue just like whole cow's milk does. And it coagulates like dairy milk. I mean, the curds are different slightly, but it's very high in albumin, which is the protein that you find in egg whites as well too. And so it coagulates upon exposure to heat, even without adding anything to it. So you don't have to add redden or anything, just heat it up and it forms large curds.

41:54And you can actually press the curds, especially if you've flavored the curds, to make something that's very cheese-like. And so it is sort of my new favorite plant milk. And I make all sorts of things out of it. I make cheese, I make butter, I make ice cream, all out of watermelon seeds. There's a whole host of other ingredients that are in my upcoming new book, but I would say watermelon seeds are at the top right now. Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that. I was checking out your new book, The Vegan Creamery, and I was very intrigued by the watermelon seed additions throughout it. How did you land on experimenting with watermelon seeds?

42:34Well, I don't know. Somehow I came across the ingredient. I have so many ingredients, whether I'm at a, you know, I don't know, Asian grocery store or Middle Eastern store, whatever, whatever is interesting, I tend to procure. And somehow watermelon seeds came across my supply chain of interesting ingredients. And I just, you know, played around with it. What can I do with it? Can I turn it into milk? How does it react when it is exposed to heat are frozen. So this is sort of what I do when I come across something new. I just sort of test it across all potential culinary techniques to see how does it react?

43:16How will it perform? Yeah, I love thinking about that experimentation. When your recipe developing, are you trying to specifically mimic dairy or eggs, or do you chase a different kind of flavor or texture based on what you think the best expression of the ingredient might be. You know, I love the way you put that, the best expression for that particular ingredient. I think we, yeah, we are kind of stuck on this idea that whatever we make that's plant-based or vegan has to replicate an animal product, that it has to replace that. And why are we so desperate to do that? Why can't we let plants express themselves the best way they do?

43:57And so I'm really excited about like, how can I capture, like, let's say I want to to make a cheese. So I will experiment with different plant milks to see what works, what doesn't work, but I'm not trying to force that plant milk to be exactly like cow's milk cheese. Sheep's milk cheese, goat's milk cheese, they don't try to replicate cow's milk cheese. They all have their individual attributes and characteristics. And so why don't we celebrate those within the realm of plants as well? Why don't we make a cashew milk cheese that expresses the best in cashews or watermelon seed milk, which, you know, performs differently than cashews.

44:35You can't make the same cheese with watermelon seeds that you can with cashews or with almonds, etc. So why not let each of them capture best what they do best? Yeah, I think your point about how animal milk has different expressions within it is such a good reminder and there is such diversity there. I'm curious, you know, you mentioned that your first cookbook, which was vegan, came out in the 90s. There's been so much development in the vegan food landscape since then. You've been a part of shaping it in many ways. Do you feel like consumers and vegan eaters are at a different point now in terms of what they're looking for, what they want to try?

45:14Oh my gosh, absolutely. When I first wrote The Now and Zan Epicure in 1990. I think it was one of the first two vegan cookbooks that were really trying to, I don't know, mimic haute cuisine, trying to elevate vegan food from the realm of brown food, you know, lentils and brown rice and steamed vegetables. And trying to make it, I don't know, more interesting. I developed a lot of my recipes on, from reading, Mastering the Art of French Cooking by Julia Child. I literally read every recipe and tried to understand what are the techniques behind a Bordelais or a Bourguignon or a Demiglage. Like, how do you create those umami flavors?

46:04And then I tried to figure out what can I use from plants that can replicate that same sense of satisfaction. And I, you know, I did my best to sort of present those ideas in the now and zen epic here. But today, it's just a totally different world, whether it's vegan French food or Italian food or whatever, everything exists everywhere. Of course, there is going to be a range in quality between cookbooks and restaurants, but there are so many amazing cookbook authors today, as well as restaurants that are really expressing the best in plant-based cuisine. It is just a totally different world.

46:44At the same time, back when I wrote that book, we didn't have a lot of so-called plant-based products. There was no real plant-based industry. So you had to go home and make things yourself. And today, unfortunately, to some degree, the plant-based industry has created sort of a bad reputation where people think that to be vegan, you have to eat a lot of highly processed food, which isn't true. At the same time, on the other side, there are so many beautiful plant-based recipe developers doing beautiful things with vegetables, legumes, nuts, and seeds, keeping it colorful, full of umami, without having to resort to store-bought products.

47:28Yeah, I think it's also interesting. I don't know if you would agree with me, but it seems to me that maybe in the past, like something that was being billed explicitly as vegan would only be consumed by people who identified that way. And I think today there are a lot of people who are omnivorous but are still interested in a dairy alternative, maybe not all of the time, but at least sometimes. No, you're absolutely right. When I had my first food company, which was back in the 1990s, I had a so-called alt-meat company. I purposely made products specifically for vegans. I wasn't trying to reach anyone besides vegans.

48:04You know, I just wanted something that, you know, I wanted to level the playing field. I felt like vegans should also be able to have access to tasty foods. But today, it is a very different scenario, especially in the realm of plant milks. Plant milks is where we now have about 15 % of market share in the liquid milk category. That has not been replicated in plant milk cheeses or in plant-based meats at all. It's really just been in the milk category. And I think that's because a lot of people are lactose intolerant or they don't like the flavor of cow's milk. and they want something that's lighter that they can still be able to use in cooking or just as a refreshing drink to have with cookies or something.

48:57About 50 % of households today have a plant milk in their refrigerator. That is not the case with plant-based cheese or plant-based meat. Yeah, I think at least anecdotally, I have, you know, dairy yogurt and dairy cheese in my fridge, but I have oat milk and not like I would never drink just cow's milk on its own. Maybe from a digestion point of view, also, it seems like it can be harder to kind of go for the straight up milk. Yeah, well, you know, lactose intolerance is a real thing. Most people of color, Asians, African Americans, Hispanic people are all lactose intolerant. It's just a very small percentage of Northern Europeans that have lactase, the enzyme that breaks down milk sugar.

49:45So it's very, very natural. We lose that enzyme that breaks down lactose once we pass infancy. It's completely natural. But we do want something creamy and milky to drink. So it is very natural that many consumers prefer plant milks. Yeah. Something that you touched on before that I think is interesting to talk about is the variety of plant-based products that are available on the market today. I know like in addition to the meat alternative, you had the vegan cheese brand Miyoko's Creamery for a long time. When it comes to kind of recipe developing and sharing recipes for making plant-based milk or yogurt or cheese or ice cream, like why would somebody be interested in making stuff at home when there are so many things that we can buy in the store?

50:38Yeah, that's a really great question. One thing is, I think you have to look at the ingredients. And I think more people who are, let's say, early adopters or flexitarians are looking for cleaner ingredients. And many of the products that are sold can be great and have clean ingredients. But then there are a whole bunch that have, I would put in the ultra processed or processed category. A lot of vegan cheeses are just based on oils and starches and have no nutritive value. And so that might be where you might want to make something at home. But from more of a food justice standpoint instead of just a nutrition standpoint, I am a strong believer in kitchen sovereignty and human beings in ordinary people reclaiming their kitchens and being able to make things from scratch rather than having to rely on another corporation to provide the food for them.

51:3470 % of what we eat today in America comes from one of 10 multinational corporations. And, you know, we've gotten to a point where we've forgotten how to make a lot of these foods. And while I'm, you know, there's nothing wrong with buying products, I certainly do that as well too. It's also very liberating to be able to learn to make these products yourself, to be able to control what ingredients go into them, to learn the art or the technique behind things like age-old techniques like fermentation, and to really be able to reclaim the control of your kitchen. Yeah, I agree with that. And I think also there is something about being able to make something exactly to your own taste, whether you want to add in a different flavor or have a different kind of final texture.

52:21I think to be able to own something can be really empowering. Yes, absolutely. You know, I always think of whatever recipe I develop as a starting off point. It is not the absolute destination. So take my recipe for, let's say, a certain cheese, for example, Reggie goat cheese, and then do your own thing to it. You know, add your own seasonings. Age it longer, age it less, grow some the penicillium candida on it and make it fuzzy. I mean, like there's so many different things that you can do. My upcoming book, The Vegan Creamery, may be the culmination of decades of experimentation I've done, but it is also just the beginning of the evolution of what we can do with plant milks.

53:09I mean, dairy products have had thousands of years to develop amazing cheeses and ice creams and sour cream, all sorts of things. We're just beginning to uncover and discover what plant milks can do. So my goal in writing this book is that it's just a kickoff point for people, a diving board, so that everyone can jump into the pool and really push that evolution further. Yeah, I love that kind of point of talking about the history of cheese cultivation. And I have to say that The Vegan Creamery as a book is so impressive. You are encouraging people to, you know, obtain their own vegan culture and inoculate their vegan cheeses and kind of doing all of these things.

53:55I'm curious when you were developing the idea for this book, knowing that you've kind of released several already, like what did you want this book to kind of represent and how did you go about thinking what recipes would be in it? Yeah, in terms of the recipes, it really, oh God, you know, if I were to rewrite the book today, I would probably have other recipes in it. And in fact, until the very last final edit, you know, there's several rounds of edits. I was still writing to my editor and saying, oh my God, can I just swap out this recipe for this one? This one's even better. So, you know, even in my repertoire, I feel like things are constantly evolving.

54:34One of the recipes that I added at the very last minute is a really easy ricotta recipe that's made out of a combination of watermelon seeds and cashews. And I discovered that making a combination milk from those two ingredients produced the perfect size curd for ricotta so that you could coagulate the milk and form these tiny little curds that when you drained it, the whey would drain away and then you would get this beautiful, creamy, sweet, milky ricotta. And that was, I think, the last recipe I contributed right before my editor said, no more changes. This is it. And so for me, you know, the recipes were always changing.

55:19And I was, I also try to simplify them over time. I think my initial butter recipe came out in the homemade vegan pantry in 2012 or 24, 2015 actually. And it had, I don't know, a whole list of ingredients in it. And I found through experimentation for this book that I was able to narrow the list of ingredients for making your own plant-based butter down to three. Wow. Without any emulsifier, which is, you know, emulsifiers are in all plant butters or margarines because that's the only way you can get a watery substance and an oil to combine. but I found that if you just change the order in which you add the ingredients, you could actually make a creamy spreadable butter with just three ingredients and with salt or without salt.

56:11That's why I say three. And so this is sort of the evolution of my thinking is how do I simplify so that it's easier for people, at least for many of the recipes, I can't do that for everything. How do I make them as nutritious as possible? How do I not add a whole bunch of adjuncts like starches and oils and gums? I try to keep starches and oils to an absolute minimum, only add them if I absolutely have to, if the expression of the plant milk just doesn't cut it for whatever it is I'm trying to do. Yeah, I think it's really interesting to be kind of perfecting the craft. And while there are some really kind of approachable, beginner-friendly recipes, it's also really interesting to see these aged, mold-ripened cheeses that you have in the book.

57:05I've never used mold in my home kitchen before. Can you maybe demystify that or make that sound a little bit less scary for people? Or is it scary? No, no, it's not scary at all. It's not scary and it's not as hard as you think. I think if you remove that fear factor and just kind of go for it and really just try to understand the science behind it. Molds require a certain amount of humidity. They require a certain temperature and they have a certain tolerance to things like salt. and so you do have to really take care of the environment in order for your mold to grow successfully but you know mold grows in your refrigerator all the time I mean who hasn't found a moldy loaf of bread for example that is penicillium roqueforte that's blue mold that you could you know inoculate cheese with for example although there's different varieties it's better to get it from a culture supplier so that you know you're getting a flavorful one instead of one with, you know, odd flavors.

58:14But once you just take the time to study and read the recipe really well, so you know what you're getting into, it's actually sort of a fun science project, if you like that sort of thing, to see that blue mold grow, to see, you know, the bloomy rind, the white mold grow on a wheel of cheese that you've made. It can be quite fun. Yeah, it does sound really kind of empowering to be able to make something like that, that I feel like most home cooks have probably never made blue cheese at home before. I really encourage it. My mind is always thinking about ingredients. So yeah, no, I wouldn't start there.

58:59If you've never, ever embarked on a vegan cheese making experience, probably a bloomy rind or a blue cheese would not be the place that you would start. Start with something really, really simple, something that you can make in a day. For example, the mozzarella, that's start to finish just, you know, a couple of, an hour or so. And then, or the ricotta, and then move on to something that you ferment overnight, for example. And then once you're comfortable with that, move on. One of the primary differences in some of the techniques in the new book, The Vegan Creamery, as opposed to my first cheese book, Artisan Vegan Cheese, which came out in 2012, is that in the current book, we really are adopting true cheese-making techniques of making the curds, separating it from the whey, pressing the curds to make a hard wheel of cheese, et cetera.

59:58Not every single cheese in the book is like that, but a lot of them are. And that is, I think, completely new. Most cheeses, even the ones that I was making out of cashews before, were really more like cashew spreads where you sort of puree cashews with a low amount of water, and then you go from there. So you're not really making curds. But I really wanted to find a way to do that to sort of replicate that cheesemaking process, that time-honed process. And so I'm really excited to be able to offer this technique to cheesemakers around the world, and I'm hoping that they're going to be able to improve on my recipes.

1:00:39You strike me as someone who always is experimenting and working on something, And I'm curious if there are any kinds of types of cheeses or other foods that you are still striving towards making a perfect plant-based recipe for. Yeah, I mean, I would say, you know, while I'm not trying to replicate dairy cheeses exactly, there is one cheese that I really, really miss, Gruyere. And I can replicate a soft Gruyere by the combination of using miso, white wine, and nutritional yeast. but I haven't been able to get that Gruyere texture, that sort of waxy, sort of flexible texture you get. I've been able to replicate that texture, but then not the flavor at the same time.

1:01:24I can get the flavor, but not the texture. So I am really working on how can I actually do that? How can I get those two? One cheese that I was really happy that I was able to add to this book is feta. And the only way I was able to get the feta was by actually studying how traditional feta was made. And traditional feta is made by once you coagulate and you press the curds, you have to salt the curds, heavily salt the curds, and then you let it air dry. And the salting draws the moisture out and transforms a soft cheese into a hard crumbly cheese. And so I was able to do that. I was just shocked.

1:02:06And I was able to replicate that nice, crumbly, hard texture that you get in feta. So there's just so much more work to do. I'm sure that people will read some of these recipes and think, you know what? This is a good start. I think I can take it further. And I'm thrilled for that. Yeah, I'm excited to see where vegan cheese goes. And I have a feeling you'll be able to figure out the perfect gruyere at one point or another. I certainly hope so. To close today, I want to play a little rapid fire game with you. So I'm going to ask you some questions and you can just give me the first one that comes to mind.

1:02:40Okay. Favorite plant-based milk? At this point, watermelon seed milk. The one and only. What does the milk itself taste like? Does it have a flavor? You know, so if you don't add a little bit of maple syrup and a dash of salt to it, it does have a slightly grassy flavor. And it's very low in sugar, whereas dairy milk has lactose and so slightly sweet. And watermelon seeds have very, very low sugar. So you do have to add just a little bit of sweetener to make it more palatable. But the mouthfeel is so milky that I absolutely love it. Okay, your favorite plant-based cheese right now? I would say my mozzarella.

1:03:24Your go-to ice cream flavor? Okay, I'm going to throw out two. Vanilla thyme and amaretto rosemary. Wow, those both sound really good. They're good together, I bet. Your go-to late night snack? Oh, spaghetti aglio e olio. Very classic. your favorite cookbook right now that isn't one of your own well i would have to say i have to go back to julia chow's mastering the art of french cooking because that's how i learned how to cook yeah it's such a classic okay finally a fictional food scene like from a book or movie something made up that you wish you could magically eat in real life um have you ever seen tampo po it's a japanese yeah yeah ramen western and even though there's nothing in it that's vegan.

1:04:14I just love ramen. So every time I watch that, you know, to get a good laugh, I also get really hungry. It's a great answer. I think if we're magically bringing the food to life, maybe we could make a vegan version of it for you. Absolutely. This has been so much fun, Miyoko. Thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

1:04:42This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.