651: Understanding AI in the Grocery Store, Sweetgreen's Dip, and Tariff Chaos with Dan Frommer

27:00I, my first job in New York was like a block from Mesa grill. And so that was to me, the first like expensive meal I ever had and where I would have people take me out to lunch. And, uh, so yeah, that was a, that's a fun book to look through now, uh, 20 years later or whatever. What's in the rotation on YouTube at the Frommer household? You know, it's been a little trickier lately. Not as many people are posting. Still, Claire Saffitz is at it. We're watching a lot of her dessert person. Kenji is on fire with all the videos he's doing and his Kenji energy. And I'm trying to think what else. New York Times cooking is great.

27:38We love Vaughn. We love Melissa Clark. They're just doing a really great job. super high quality and always something interesting. And we'll flip through Bone App when they have something. But I am looking for recommendations. There are a lot of people who were posting who are not. I know. It's funny. I've been wanting a doobie-doo-bop update from Tina out in Spain. She's my favorite YouTube creator. Oh, I'll have to check that out. You know, I imagine that YouTube, I think there was a big rush to YouTube during COVID. and when there were few options for even getting paid anything to cook. And now the private chef market is back open, books are being published and purchased.

28:24And I think YouTube monetization is just not what it needs to be. If you don't have your own salesperson that you trust that's really making big sponsorship sales, I think it's not a great income stream relative to other options. I've heard, I did an interview with Molly Boz earlier this year and her sub stack. And I think this is true for a lot of those who have, or actually she doesn't use sub stack. She was just memberful like me. Her newsletter though, is making a bunch of money. And, and, and so that's great. I do miss YouTube. Everyone, a lot of these people have had kind of interesting, unique life things happen.

29:01So that's why they're not posting Molly. You know, she's been very public about her tragically lost her home and where she was doing her studio to the fire here in LA. So, you know, I'm never ever in my life going to call her up and say, Hey, why aren't, why aren't there some videos on YouTube? But, but her newsletter has kept ticking and she's been doing Instagram. So maybe the answer is YouTube is just not worth. It's not. I mean, you look at the CPM numbers for the ad numbers, it's low. I mean, you have to do the branded sponsored episodes. You can't just rely on the the two million views anymore because those CPMs are just not there.

29:37And there's other places to make money, Subsec being the main one. I'm curious, from your perspective, then, being around so many cookbook launches, is YouTube a required element for promotion? Or do you think Instagram and TikTok just go way further for the juice? I think it's a great question. I mean, the editors here who acquire cookbooks look at all sorts of metrics very closely when looking at an acquisition and I think any kind of paid membership is a very, very strong indicator for buying a cookbook. So I think you look at the audience and you're like, okay, are they streaming 10 hours of YouTube or are they paying$30 a month?

30:17There's a clear choice that you're going to look at. But I think the acquisition process is very unique in case by case. I think that there's definitely big YouTube stars who don't have a subset who do terrific cookbooks and sell lots of them. And then there's small names, too, who don't have any platform that get books because it's just a great idea and should be out there. So I think it's a range of topics. But I agree that YouTube seems to be cooling a little bit, at least as the buzzy platform for food creators. Whereas on the math scale, it continues to take more and more share of viewing.

30:50So it is winning the streaming wars quietly. But yeah, the food corner is a little trickier these days. I mean, it's pods though, baby. Let's talk about podcasts. I mean, that's where it's at. I mean, look at like time on site and just like consumption numbers for podcasts and where we're at today. If you're this far in the episode, you may be into our show. And really, to me, that's a great indicator too. If somebody is listening to three episodes of a show a week, it's chances are that you're going to buy their cookbook or their project, you know, their t-shirt. is I think that's another place that we look for ideas.

31:29Even if you got to the back of my report, but there's a big section on podcasting too. And one of the more interesting data points was that more millennials would rather run into their favorite podcast host at the grocery store than their favorite movie or TV star. This is not true for any other generation, but millennials who listen to podcasts have a very intimate and close relationship. some would say parasocial with their with the host um most millennials think uh most gen z and millennials think that they would become friends with their podcast host if they met favorite host if they met them in person so i did see that i didn't want to make it too meta and we actually did talk about podcasts but i i read that very closely and it's very cool and i think uh shouts to the listeners who do reach out to me and and i love hearing from you and i i think it's special.

32:19I mean, I love that people fall asleep to listen to podcasts. I think that there's something to be said when it's that's the last voice you're hearing before you sleep. There's going to be a deeply personal relationship with that person. And I know a lot of people do that. Boy, I wonder if my I don't wear an aura ring, but if but when I did, I wonder if my sleep was better when Bill Simmons was the last voice I fell asleep to or Terry Gross. Oh, my gosh. Well, it depends if your sports team is doing well and Bill Simmons is is on your side and you You'll sleep well if Bill's on your team's side.

32:50But yeah, Terry, so you're a Terry fan. You listen to Terry Pods. Well, I'm not in charge of the podcast before bed, but yes, it's usually fresh air or the rewatchables in our house. Well, there's more to cover. I mean, I love this conversation. We've gone in some great directions. And I wanted to ask you about Sweetgreen. You wrote about it on The New Consumer and you gave the recent earnings call a very close look. And it wasn't pretty for Sweetgreen. They're definitely, the arrow is going down for that company. And really, I'd love to get your take on what you learned about Sweetgreen and really the importance of newness for not just Sweetgreen, but Cava, Chipotle, and others playing in that space.

33:32Yeah, it's an interesting time. It wasn't a pretty quarter for Sweetgreen. It hasn't been a pretty quarter or even a pretty year for a bunch of these companies. Even some, like Chipotle has just crushed it for the last few years. and their same store sales are down. Sweetgreen's same store sales are down. Starbucks is in a known recovery phase with a new CEO. Their sales are still down. Other companies are up. So this is not like everyone's down. But like Cava, for example, is still up, but barely. And they had been absolutely crushing the last couple of years. Taco Bell is up. I was just looking at the other kind of, you know, I was wondering, are Chipotle customers going to Taco Bell or are they going to Chili's more?

34:23Well, Taco Bell sales are up and Chili's sales are up. So I think there was an article recently about how Chili's has kind of made it, made a comeback. Chili's same store sales were up 24 % last quarter. So that's actually very good. But everyone's coming from a different base. So I think there's a couple of things worth analyzing here. One is kind of what is going on in fast casual and, you know, sweet green specifically a decade ago when they were kind of emerging in New York was a very, very special offering. It was a salad that was really high end ingredients relative to whatever other salads you would get at like the bodega or, you know, certainly a McDonald's.

35:00Obviously not this kind of salad you would get at, you know, ultra paradiso or four horsemen or something like that, but just a really solid salad lunch. It was a little more expensive than eating at Chipotle, but it felt very much worth it. The dressings in particular, I will never stop saying this, they were bracingly acidic and very fresh in a way that you never got out of a kind of pre-made deli lunch salad or anything like that. It was just a very special place. The line was long. It was a good looking crowd. Oh yeah. Up on Park, the Broadway location, You remember when, you know, when they first opened, like talk about a scene.

35:39I mean, oh my gosh, you know, I didn't even mind waiting half an hour for lunch. So things have changed in two ways. One is Sweetgreen is a public company now. They've had to scale. They've had to build out a system. And the other thing is a lot of other restaurants sell salads now with pretty good dressing. And, you know, and I would say the Sweetgreen quality sometimes feels like it's where it was 10 years ago. And sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes you get a sell and you're like, what's going on here? Something isn't great. And that is, I would guess, a huge, just hard thing to do is scaling a company from 20 stores to 200.

36:16You know, Chipotle has thousands, you know, Cava's on its way, all these on their way to thousands of restaurants. It's very hard to do in a way that maintains not only ingredient quality, but assembly quality, staff quality. So much of this industry is just training new people all the time. Sweetgreen on its earnings call bragged that staff retention was at an all-time high, that turnover was at an all-time low, and that is 88%. So you're basically, and they have tens of thousands of people working there. So you're constantly hiring and training and bringing on thousands of people fleet-wide who are there for a few months, a year if you're lucky.

37:00a few of them, which is great and which is what has to happen, keep getting promoted, then they become managers, regional managers. That's how you build an organization and a team. But it is so hard. So that's why you see a lot of these restaurants really try to simplify process as much as possible, make everything as pre-scripted as possible so that consistency can be achieved by someone who is, I think the official term at Chipotle is thwacking, someone who has thwacked millions of times, and someone who's on day two. And so you, I think, inevitably lose what makes a lot of these restaurants special if you don't constantly work on, you know, what makes a culture strong, what makes a brand strong.

37:46Sweetgreen, last year, I don't know if we talked about this, you and I, but last year they launched Steak. That was a big thing for them. Steak was a new protein. They figured out how to make it without having to bring in any new equipment in the store. And it helped their business. And everything's about protein now. I don't have to talk about that. You've talked about it on every other show, I bet. And then when they launched steak, they kind of took their foot off the gas on their seasonal menu, which is what made Sweetgreen in the first place, was this seasonal menu where every three or four months, there's a new menu.

38:18There's early spring, late spring, seasonal ingredients. It feels like you're not at the farmer's market, it. But if you're, you're as close to the farmer's market as you can get in a chain restaurant. And they stopped doing that when they launched steak because they couldn't do too much at a time. It was hard to introduce a new protein to begin with. And they kind of took their foot off the gas and they realized at some point, oh, we really need to go back to that seasonal menu. So they just launched one recently for the first time in a while and it's done well. I went in and had my, I had the Caprese bowl and I enjoyed it.

38:56It was nice. It kind of was the first time in a while where I went back to sweet green and went, oh, you know what? I'm very pleased with this lunch. I will come back and try this again. There's a surprise there. And I think you want to - A bit of a surprise. Yeah. And it's not to say they haven't been doing things like they launched fries and fries were another thing that they talked about on the earnings call. They launched fries. They were kind of, what did they call them? Ripple cut or ripple cut. something it was a play on crinkle cut that made it made them seem rather unique they have a an herb dusting on them which is unique and then they also came with dipping sauces that you're not going to get at wendy's they came they came with a uh some sort of aioli which i never ended up trying and my favorite was the dill pickle ketchup which was incredible and actually it was very funny if you have a fry in the dill pickle ketchup it remind me of the taste of a mcdonald's cheeseburger, which is a very specific.

39:47Oh, wow. Yeah. Anyway. Pickle heavy. Everyone knows when they hit the pickle in McDonald's, you know. Exactly. Yeah. And it was interesting. But it was one of these things where the fries were, you know, I did an interview with Nick Jamey, who is the co-founder and chief concept officer there. And he, and this is kind of a mantra they were saying about this evolution with these fries is, we're not just a salad restaurant anymore. we are putting a new spin on fast food. This is our take on a fast food classic. Salad and a fries is kind of this, I don't want to say trendy, but a lunch that people have.

40:22Maybe it is a little trendy. It is a great balance, right? I'm going to have a salad and I'm going to have some fries. And much to, I think, everyone's surprise on this past earnings call, they said, you know what? These fries, we've had them for a few months. We're actually discontinuing them. It's a real bummer. I don't think they even said what percentage of sales they led to, if they led to much of an uplift. But operationally, they were a problem because when, and Sweetgreen was very proud, they launched fries without adding a new piece of equipment to the kitchen. They had a little fry warming station near the front of the line, but they didn't need to install fryers.

41:00They used their convection ovens to air fry them. And that was a big point pride. Like anytime you can launch a new part of the menu without having to bring in a huge piece of equipment and invest in hundreds of those fryers or whatever it is and teaching people how to use them and figuring out the venting and all that kind of stuff, that's a win. But the problem is that every minute the fries were being cooked in the convection oven, meat and vegetables, which are the core of the menu and value proposition of sweet green, were not in the oven. So meat was sitting out longer. Veggies were sitting out longer.

41:36They weren't as fresh. And if you're going to get something, if you're going to get a salad and the chicken feels like it's been sitting out since the morning, that's not great. It was a smart bet. When they launched it, I was like, this is clever. I saw the way that the salad and fry thinking about like a brasserie style and having that little indulgence with a salad. It made a lot of sense. But I think my personal experience was that, and you wrote about this in your great piece, is like they were kind of sad. I mean, they weren't like really hitting. They felt like they'd been sitting out for a while and they were kind of being neglected.

42:11They didn't deliver well. I mean, that's part of the problem. Or delivery, too. And no fries. I don't think any fries deliver well. Definitely not. Although the fries from Dune actually deliver pretty well. Oh. But there were, I, you know, I was like, oh, I'm going to try to crisp these back up in the oven and then I would over crisp them. I never even got to try them in the restaurant. So, you know, fries are ideally 30 seconds out of the fryer, right? Something like that. So you're never going to get that with delivery ever. But every time they were delivered, they were kind of cold. They weren't crispy.

42:40And then I over-crisped them. They tasted good. Oh, yeah, they did, for sure. And I agree with you. The dipping sauces were great. Sauces were great. And another thing kind of strategically that mattered for Sweetgreen was that this was, if you think about one of the most successful fast casual marketing ploys over the last 10 years to me is guac mode from Chipotle. Chipotle will hit you with a push notification and say, hey, free guac today. And I'm such a, you know, I'm a mouse on a treadmill. I'm like, oh, okay, I'm getting Chipotle for lunch. And with Sweetgreen, they finally had this lever, this kind of high margin thing where they could go, hey, free fries today if you order, you know, that sort of thing.

43:19And they're losing that. So that's kind of a bummer. But ultimately, if they're messing up your chicken, which is the base of your business, then that's not okay. They have a new chief operating officer. I'm not going to put out the possibility that maybe down the road, they can figure out a playbook where they can walk and chew gum at the same time and have chicken and fries. McDonald's does it. So we'll see. I'm a huge fan. I continue to support Sweetgreen. They're across from our office. I love the founders. They've innovated time and again. And this is just a setback for me. I believe so. I think they're going to be fine.

43:59They have a lot of intention with what they do, which is rare. They're nice people. I do have a personal relationship with some of them. I want them to do well. I loved eating there every day in 2018, or I should say 2015 through 2018. I went there a lot. It was great. I want to go back more and really enjoy it. And I finally did recently with this kind of seasonal summer menu. They were also very proud of the Korean Steakhouse collab they did earlier this year. I thought that was a strategically smart move. I thought the product had like six days worth of salt and sugar in it, so I couldn't have it more than once.

44:40But maybe that's not designed to be ordered more than once. But they're so tied to Food & Bev. They just know the right chefs. Credit to Nick. He's a very astute diner. And at that scale, it's cool to see Simon Kim getting his time at Sweet Cream. That's really cool to me. It is cool. Totally. Yeah. And they do it well. And I think they do it with real intention, which is not something you can say about almost any chain. A couple of things I found interesting. So first of all, is this kind of obsession with newness. And this was kind of one of my last newsletters called People Want New Stuff All the Time.

45:22There's always been limited time burgers or specials or that kind of thing. I remember one of my first McDonald's experiences growing up was the McJordan special that would come out in Chicago and maybe it came out nationwide. I don't even know. And then Bill Wennington got one called the Beef Wennington. But then there was like the Batman tie-ins. First Bill Wennington reference on our show, I must say. I appreciate it. Hey, underappreciated Chicago sports hero. So this is not a new thing, but it feels like in this kind of social media era where you're not just learning about these things from commercials, you're learning about them because people are posting them all the time, that there's increased urgency to this and also increased upside too.

46:08If you look at what's happened globally with this concept of Dubai chocolate and how quickly Shake Shack was able to get a Dubai chocolate shake on its menu and they limit them to a certain number per day, but boy, does that do wonders for foot traffic. You have to appreciate this obsession with novelty. You don't have to love it. And not everyone, I don't think, has to participate in it, but it seems to be increasingly important for fast casual. Chipotle has a seasonal special recently called Hot Honey Chicken. Hot Honey itself has kind of had a big explosion in popularity over the last few years.

46:48If you look at Google Trends, hot honey is just kind of on this lift off curve still. But a quarter of people who were buying Chipotle during that limited time offer went for that seasonal thing. At Sweetgreen, it was something like mid-teens percent of people were buying the seasonal menu while it was out. So a meaningful portion of people, both your everyday customer and also people coming in just to try out this new thing. And that adds up, especially in this era where, you know, I don't like the idea of running your business to make your investors happy. Obviously, you have to do that, but it's only one piece of it.

47:27But if the difference is, you know, same-store sales are up 6 % versus 4%, and if you can make a real difference because you have a smart, on-brand, limited thing that captures people's attention in this era where everyone's going after their attention, that is an important piece of the playbook, especially if your brand, as Sweet Greens is, is rooted in freshness and seasonality and all that sort of thing. So it is very important. It is to be a symbol of, and again, this is very, the brand of Sweet Green is like knowing what is going on in food and bringing that to its customers, but also a sign of operational maturity where you can do more than one thing at a time.

48:11And that is important for these companies because competitors will. If you look at Cava, they've really come out of, I don't want to say nowhere, but they've grown tremendously. And a big part of that is they have a more complex operation. They have grills, they have all kinds of different kitchen implements, and they have a much bigger menu than Chipotle. I think Chipotle's tiny menu has served it very well over the decades, but I think we're at a point now where people have expectations for more variety and more newness. And I think that is only going to get more important. I had Kava founder Ted Zinnokristos on the show about six months ago, and we were talking to that exact point about the complexity of it and just like cooking, using the grills to their advantage.

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50:16Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there.

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51:26For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year, plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. Before I let you go, let me ask you, are there two brands in food that we should be paying closer attention to? You know, I'm always going to root for the tiny brands because I think those are the ones that are doing it with the most heart and obviously have the most upside too.

52:10If you're looking at what's the future of food, it's to me what the small brands are doing. There's a few that I'm really impressed with recently. One is, and I don't fully know how to pronounce it, but I think it's bad hombres or hambrays or hombres or something, but it's H M B R E S. So please tell me the correct pronunciation of that. But it is as far as I can tell, a husband and wife team out of Arizona. And this is one of those things where it's like, I was sick of the frozen bean burritos that I could buy. So I decided to make the best ones ever. And now I'm running a burrito company and, and we're posting every minute of it on Instagram, including our vacation.

52:49And a lot of that can be really cheesy and over the top. This is great. I love it. I can't even eat them. I'll never really eat a flour tortilla, but they look great. People seem to really like them. Their business has grown. They seem like good people and they're just giving it everything. And they've got, you know, I think they've rented out like an old fast food restaurant to use as their, as their kitchen. It's just a great story. They're still only in Arizona. I think mostly in the Phoenix metro area. But this just seems like people who are, are starting a food business because they want to, because they feel they need to.

53:24And I just love it. It makes me really happy to see it. I wish them all the best. I've never actually never talked to them. I should reach out to them and do a piece on them because now I'm talking about them here. But really impressed. And I think that's awesome. A couple others, Rocky, Rocky's Matcha here in LA, someone again, a side hustle that's turned into something almost too real, just really, really focused on quality and also So very interesting integration into the fashion business. If you go to shows at Paris Fashion Week, which I'm lucky enough to get to tag along to a couple of times a year, Rocky will have a matcha stand at some of the, I think it's Sakai over the spring.

54:04And he's just very smart about kind of where he shows up. And it's been hard. Matcha is on a rip-roaring popularity growth right now. It's been hard to source matcha. Another one is Kettle. I know you love Kettle. I love Kettle. all of these even the best matcha sellers in the u.s are having a really hard time getting enough supply right now kettle just opened in la a really fantastic tea shop which i go to whenever i'm in the neighborhood um big fan of kettle and then lastly um sunny's which is a tahini brand has just launched the first pre-made salad dressing that i have purchased with my own money and will be purchasing more than once.

54:45It is so good. There are three flavors. I was lucky to get to beta test them. One is just a very simple lemon that tastes so good. Just very classic lemon, a tiny bit of sweetness, but really good acidity and freshness. Then there's a kind of a yuzu ponzu type thing. Maybe it's not actually yuzu, but a ponzu type thing and a miso Caesar, which sounds trendier than it is. It's just a really simple Caesar thing. I, again, I am a make your own dressing every kind of every time kind of person. This is the first one where I've said, you know what, this is good enough. I'm going to keep this stocked.

55:19I'm going to throw a splash on my greens that I was going to eat with no dressing. And, and again, the founders are just, you know, again, I think it's a family, family startup and Sonny's dressing, I think is in Whole Foods on the West coast now, but we'll be going across. I love this, this range of, of, of founders and products and getting a solid bottle dressing is more challenging than you would think to pay actual money for. You make me think about a small company as well when you talk about posting through it. I think that there's definitely the cheesy way to do founder's journey on Instagram.

55:53But I've been following Sour Milk, which is a new yogurt company launched in New York. and the founders are all over Instagram. I would say probably posting too much for my taste, but I'm still watching and it's really cool. Like they're showing the hustle and they're doing it with real heart and I've not tasted the yogurt, but I'm like, that's a really nice playbook is like posting like the burrito company you spoke about, posting through your journey, but doing it in an authentic way and not like a picture perfect way. I think it's a great call. It's great because I think customers really root for you when you do it this way.

56:33And if you show who you are, eventually it stops mattering. You know, your product has to be great every time. And eventually, you know, you're not going to be doing the day-to-day of the company. But as long as you are, I think it's really, really important. And if you can do it and you can do it well, I think it's awesome. And also, investors love it. And that's the thing is like, I discourage companies from taking investment before they're ready for it. But when they are investors these days want to see that, you know, how to make noise that, you know, how to build an audience organically and not just through paid acquisition or through partnerships.

57:10And if you can say, Hey, look, we built our social feed up to, you know, whatever it is, thousands of people because, uh, and I am follower 4852 for, for sour milk. So we'll, we'll remember that when it's 10 times bigger, but, um, people remember that. And investors are, see that as crucial these days is building, being able to build an audience online organically. I don't think that's, should come as a surprise, but, um, there, there are a lot of reasons to do it. And honestly, I think it keeps you going too. Like if you're, and then you look back and say, Oh, how far we've come. So I love those brands.

57:45I'm now going to follow sour milk and, and check it out next time I'm in New York. Well, Dan Frommer, thank you so much. It was a great conversation, many topics. I appreciate it. Always a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

58:00Stella Drivas, welcome to This Is Taste. How are you doing? I'm doing fantastic. Can't complain. How are you? Oh, it's great to talk to you. I mean, you're not in New York right now. Tell me where you are and what have you been eating recently? Yes. Well, currently I am in Athens, Greece. I come here every summer. My mom has a place here and it's right by the water. So we're very lucky and blessed. And we're here right now, currently the whole summer. So what have we been eating? A little bit of everything. I can't, you know, like that's the one thing about Athens. I think in the past five years, it has grown exponentially as far as restaurants go, as far as a lot of things go.

58:44And Greece is not only about going to the islands. We've been going to Matsuhisa. We've been going to the taverna and getting gyro and French fries and khoriatiki salata, Greek traditional salad. So we've been all over the place. I've been, again, so lucky to be able to sample it all. Well, I have to say I was in Athens last summer and what an amazing city. I I was there for like three or four days, dining out. Kukavaya was on my list. I love that place. So many great places. What's the restaurant scene like? What's going to Athens as a restaurant fan like? Yeah, I mean, so a lot of people ask me on my socials and on my website, where do you go in Athens?

59:35And when I'm referencing Athens, there's like kind of two parts of Athens in my mind. as a Greek American. There's Athens, the city, which is where the Acropolis is and most buildings, businesses are and that kind of thing. And the famous flea market, Monostiraki. And then there's the part of Athens where I'm in, which is kind of like I equated to the Hamptons of Athens. They call it the Athenian Riviera. So basically the people of Athens come out to this area where I'm at. And they have their summer homes here. So the eating scene here is amazing. Like I said before, it's got it all. It's got high end, it's got middle, you know, middle of the road, and it's got dirt cheap.

1:00:23And it's all amazing. I cannot complain. It's all wonderful. Very, very cool. I bet having this home for the summers, it's great for your work. I mean, you know, I want to hear a little bit about Hungry Happens and the community. You know, know, you know, what's the what's the cooking like on on your on your platform? And what kind of health advice are you giving? Yeah, absolutely. Well, I don't get a lot of work done here in Greece. Yeah, I come here to relax and kind of recharge so I can go back to New York and go go at it. But as far as my Hungry Happens community and my website and my socials, I really try to, I've tried to fuse together kind of my upbringing and Greek culture, Greek cuisine with more of what I kind of eat and practice and believe in, so to speak, which is kind of like a low carb lifestyle.

1:01:26There's a bit of a contrast between the two, but that's kind of what I've been trying to do for the past, I'd say 12 years I've been doing this. So yeah, I think that my community is there for that specifically where I bring Mediterranean into low carb and just, I really, really focus on easy recipes because that's the feedback I get. We love the fact that we can just kind of throw together whatever we see on your page quickly. Like I probably have most of the ingredients. So that's, yeah, that's what I try to give my audience as much as possible. We talk about low carb and it's obviously trending.

1:02:05We talk about protein maxing on the show a lot. And I mean, you're really well positioned to write these recipes and in your cookbook that you're putting out. Did you see this coming? Did you see this big protein era coming? You know, of course, low carb is not new, but we're really, really in an age right now. Yes. I mean, like I said, I've been kind of following. When I started in 2013, it was kind of labeled clean eating. Before that, in the late 90s, it was Atkins diet, which I find interesting how it's all kind of shifted in titles and branding. but I think it's always been there. I think that there's always been a result.

1:02:51So that's why people just kind of keep going back to it. For me personally, I enjoy eating high protein diet, a high protein diet because I feel full. I can eat, at a certain point I get full and then I feel full and then I'm not hungry two hours later where if I just noticed with myself, if I eat pasta or sugary foods, uh, pizza, traditional pizza, I just, within a few hours, I'm kind of hungry again. It doesn't always satiate me, but I do also believe in kind of balance and not, not strict behavior in anything. I think that everything kind of can be had to a certain extent. if you're doing this kind of plan.

1:03:41It doesn't have to be strict, and you still can be healthy. So I just think that you can have your cake and eat it too, to a certain extent. So tell me about food growing up. Where are you growing up, and what's it like in your household? I had a wonderful experience with food, mostly thanks to my grandmother, my Yaya. I was raised by my parents and my grandparents. We all lived together, the six of us. My parents opened up a restaurant when I was seven. So poof, they were kind of immersed in that. And I was left at home with Yaya and Papu, which they were extremely loving and caring. And my Yaya always showed her love in many ways, but especially through food.

1:04:29What do you want to eat? Tell me what you... All the time, I'm here to make... She made anything we wanted whenever we wanted and from scratch. So I was really spoiled and very lucky. She made a lot of pasta, homemade pasta, homemade bread. Gosh, just anything you can imagine. Pastizio all the time. A lot of stews. A lot of vegetables were always on the table too. A lot of feta, a lot of cheeses. Yeah, I mean, it was just amazing having her as a food role model because she really taught me like how this is family and, you know, you cook for family and that's how you show love to your loved ones.

1:05:16And it was a great experience. And then I also had my parents, on the other hand, where we had the diner. My parents had a Greek diner. It wasn't Greek, so to speak, but we had a lot of Greek dishes, a lot of Italian dishes because it's New York. And so I also experienced that, a lot of food through that, bringing home food, going there, started working there when I was 14. Tell me about this restaurant. Where's it at? I mean, you're growing up in a restaurant. I mean, that is an amazing upbringing. I mean, food is at the center. You're, you're, you're. It was a diner. Yeah. So my, yeah, my father bought a diner when I was seven with his brother and, uh, my parents and, and my uncle and my aunt worked it, you know, and then, um, they left that diner, uh, probably, I want to say in like 2002 or something like that.

1:06:10And they bought an even bigger diner out East by Stony Brook university. and that was like double the size and a lot more foot traffic in there. And, you know, it wasn't, it was, it was just a diner, like your traditional diner. It had a huge menu. It had like three, 400 items on the menu. It was, I don't know how they did it. My dad ended up selling in 2020. And so we, you know, we're not a part of it anymore, but he had an amazing run in at it. it was the restaurant business. I have so much respect for anybody in the restaurant business. A lot of people are like, oh, you should open up a restaurant.

1:06:51That's definitely not for me. I had the chance with my father and I was like, no, thank you. I've worked in the restaurant business for many, many years, but it's just not for me. It's a lot of pressure. There's a lot at stake and it just has to run smoothly, cleanly, beautifully. And they did that, but it's hard. It's hard to do. It's not easy. I mean, 400 menu items. That's crazy. I mean, that's amazing. I think for listeners who haven't been to a New York metro Greek diner, it is a singular thing. It is incredible. When you have 400 menu items, what's the line like? I mean, a busy morning. So inside the kitchen, you just see a lot of the traditional diner menus.

1:07:35I think that's what sold the most cheeseburger, you know, cheeseburger deluxes with the French fries, pickles, onions, tomatoes, lettuce. A lot of eggs were getting sold. And then, of course, traditional Greek entrees, a lot of pancakes. It's, you know, it's the waffles, that kind of thing was, I think, were the biggest sellers at the at the diner. Yeah, I mean, I love a Greek diner. It's incredible. Let's talk about going to school in New York City. What's food like there for you? Are there any restaurants that you have memories about? I sure do. So I went to college. I'm going to date myself now in the late 90s.

1:08:19Early 2000s. That's what I'm talking about. That's what I wanted to hear about this because I knew that that was your era. The golden era of New York City, in my opinion. I mean, you know, I'm sure the 80s were great too. And the 2000s were great. So I don't want to throw anybody under the bus. But I had an exceptional time in Manhattan when I lived there. Basically, there were a lot of spots that I went to, but the ones that really were repeated constantly and throughout, I lived on Waverly Place. so it I was going to cozy diner which was right around the corner and all the time we would either get takeout delivery or eat there we get our cheese again I can't leave I can't leave where I would get the cheeseburger deluxe I would get soups and grilled cheeses and um my diet was not the best when I lived there I would get a lot of pizza uh New York style pizza who can resist that and then um we also there was a restaurant there called caliente's right across the street from my building oh hell yeah my friends and i oh you know it oh caliente of course love that reference so uh we used to hit that up like at least once or twice a week after classes meet there uh for happy hour of course uh and then there was a a small it was just so funny because i hadn't thought I haven't thought about it in a while.

1:09:50And there is a small, there was, I don't think it's there anymore, a small Greek restaurant about a block or two away from where I lived called Sadorini. And we used to go there and it was Greek cuisine. It was a little bit nicer. It was a little like middle to upper scale restaurant, so to speak. And it was just fantastic there. You got a little bit of taste of Greece. We would also jump in the subway and head into Astoria and eat there a lot. Yeah, it was just wonderful. Well, I want to talk about some recipes in the book. It's really, really sharp recipe development. Lots of ideas here. And I think, you know, the low carb element is kind of the through line.

1:10:36But even if you're not, that's not your style or you want something more. I mean, there's so many cool ideas. And something that jumped out that I hadn't seen was this balsamic roasted strawberries. I love that idea. Tell me a little bit about it. Yeah. So I had had it, I believe, at a restaurant in the past couple of years. And I just loved the flavor of whenever you roast, bake, whatever you want to call it, the fruit, it just brings out its flavor tenfold. And so I wanted to do that, the balsamic vinegar. Whenever I add balsamic vinegar to pretty much like any salad that has fruit in it, it just also brings out the flavor in the fruit tenfold.

1:11:19So it was just a natural combination. And it's a very simple recipe, whipping the ricotta cheese with a little bit of honey, I believe it was, in olive oil. And it's like a silky smooth kind of flavor explosion with crackers, with a little crostini bread. It's just, it's great. I love it so much. And it's a great way if you have that strawberry pint that's been sitting in your fridge for a few days and maybe looking a little older. Roasting is such a great idea. Yes, ideal for sure. I like that you have a savory cookie because we don't do that enough. And you have this great spinach and feta cookie recipe.

1:12:09It's so smart. Tell me about it. Like I said before, it's all about easy recipes. So I grew up in a house where everything kind of was done from scratch. And I'm kind of a lazy girl. Okay, so I want to do shortcuts. I want to find shortcuts. I want the same, kind of the same experience without doing all of the work. So that's where that specific recipe comes from. You basically get the same flavors from spanakopita, spinach and feta pie without the filo because that's kind of a specialty item. Yes, they carry it at most supermarkets, but sometimes I have it, sometimes I don't have it. So anyway, that is like a perfect appetizer snack, breakfast on the go, grab and go.

1:12:54They taste so good. The texture is kind of like crispy on the outside, fluffy on the inside. It's amazing. Let's zoom out a bit and tell me just the idea of carb light cooking. What are some of the key, I would say, goals with it when you're thinking about a carb light recipe? Okay, so when I think of carb light, I mean, okay, the name carb light comes from Coke light. So in Greece, they don't have Diet Coke, they have Coke light. So I'm just like, okay, I don't want to use the word diet because a lot of people don't like that word. It can be, you know, like, not triggering, but just annoying to some people to think, oh, this is diet food.

1:13:40It's not diet food. I don't look at it as diet food. Uh, so I just like, you know, lighter kind of eating. So that chapter in my book is basically filling food, filling entrees, delicious entrees, but a little bit lighter. So you're not going to have pasta or rice. You're going to have, let's say a shrimp dish with a nice sauce, but it's going to be over a bed of cauliflower rice. I just think that a lot of people appreciate that on my page and I wanted to give them as much as I can. It's not only in that chapter, it's throughout the book. So Stella, tell me about a dessert we can't miss. I think the chapter is really strong and I want to get your take on that.

1:14:23Yeah. So desserts have become a big part of my website. I try to deliver to my audience as many dessert experiences because I see that they enjoy them, but I try to do them with a healthier spin. I try to decrease the sugar that is found in traditional recipes, kind of make the same recipe that they would find on like Martha Stewart or whatever popular dessert website. But I would grab that kind of concept and idea and lessen the sweetener in it and try to use just more wholesome ingredients or low carb ingredients. In this chapter, my favorite recipe that stands out to me is the baklava cheesecake bars.

1:15:08I think if there's one recipe that, I mean, they're all, again, they're all delicious, but that one is one of the most memorable ones in the chapter. I took, a traditional cheesecake is made with three bars of cream cheese. There's nothing wrong with that. I enjoy that too. I love that. But in this recipe specifically, I did one bar of cream cheese, cottage cheese, and Greek yogurt. So the flavors are there. The protein is there. The creaminess is there, but it's just kind of adding different ingredients and it just, it came out perfectly. Beautiful. I love that. I love that. Stella, this has been such a pleasure.

1:15:49Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. It's my pleasure. And I thank you for this experience.

1:15:58This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.