659: The Jake Cohen Experience

24:46So having the balance of all that. So dairy can be a tough hang for you sometimes. Yeah, uncultured dairy at least. I see. Good point. So it's choosing dairy correctly and maybe moderating it slightly. But also it's like now that I like this also ties in. Again, everything comes together. Now that I'm this like party animal, I'm going to the club for 13 hours. Like I'm not eating a fresh mozzarella caprese sandwich right before. You're getting some honey soft serve. Let's get real. That is so true. Really? But that's the reward. That's the reward. That's the reward. After 13 hours of sweating it out.

25:19There's a really great recipe, this pistachio salad dressing, which I think the combination is very sharp. But you write in the head note that it is inspired by a Hudson Valley restaurant. And it's the only restaurant that you'll gatekeep. And I'm going to ask you just a favor for our listeners. Keep it here on the podcast. What's the restaurant? I live there. I'm so curious about this restaurant. Tell me the story. Okay. So here's the story. So I love this menu. This menu is called That Was Tonight. It's a good menu. And it's really a menu you could throw together in like two hours flat. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

25:52And this is a salad dressing that came about from this place. I used to always go to, before I owned a home in the Hudson Valley, which not anymore, but I would always stay in Kingston. And I started staying in the Rondout and just fell in love with that area, Kingston. And we used to always go to, what's that other, what's like the Guidos? Guidos, sure. We used to always go to Guidos, which obviously has such like a New York charm to it. And it was like really good. And then there was that place Rosie's General opened. Of course. And I was talking to them because there was a connection. We had a bunch of mutual friends, but I can't remember what the connection was.

26:33and we were just chatting, and he's like, well, you know, where you really gotta go to is right down the block. You have to go to Graziano's Downtown Cafe. Yeah. And we went to Graziano's, and it's just this, like, one middle-aged Italian man who's making fresh pasta and cooking everything, and the chicken parm with fresh pasta is, it's one of the best things ever. I love that you're calling out Kingston. It's been a theme on our show. I try to hype up Kingston as much as I can. I think it is the best. The Hamptons are dead. Hamptons are dead. And for food, pound for pound, it's the best food city in New York state.

27:08A hundred percent. Kingston is. But it's the whole thing. Obviously, everyone's like, oh, where do you like to go for your vacation? It's the Hudson Valley. I mean, I love Fire Island. Love Fire Island. But I'm not eating on Fire Island. It's like, oh, there's one Long Island deli. I have three quarts of low-fat chicken salad and a spoon, and I call it a day. Graziano's downtown. Great call. I love that recommendation. And tell us about the salad dressing that was inspired by that. They just did this really interesting. Like we just, we ordered a bunch of salads. I went for my 30th birthday, actually, with my birthday's New Year's Eve.

27:43So it's like fun. I had a bunch of friends staying at our house and we like went there. I took a giant like 10 milligram edible. We ordered everything for the table and we got a couple of salads and they were like, do you want to do all Caesar? Do you want to split it up with a pistachio salad? And we did that. and they add like olives and grapes to the salad. It's very like eclectic. But the dressing I thought was really cute. So when I was thinking of a recipe to do for this menu, I wanted to do a, I don't just want to do like the norm. And so I wanted to do something that was kind of an emulsified Caesar-ish dressing, but the pistachios add such like meatiness to it.

28:21That's really nice. Really, really nice touch there. Jake, tell me about having a Sunday moment at a dinner party. I talked to Kuchibu Shah about this recently, about how just all restaurants need to have a sundae on their menu. It's like a no-brainer. Shout out to Dan Kluger. I got what he did at ABC and then at Loring in terms to sundae is huge. And having multiple sundaes on a menu is really smart, so that's a little bit of a side, but you are proposing to have a sundae moment. Yes, a sundae moment. Oh, and then the other shout out is Cafe Pana, because if you see me at Cafe Pana eating avogado sundae, I'm on a date.

28:58I think I like, I know, yeah. So should they approach? Always. I love, there's nothing better with it. It's wonderful. So here's the deal. I hate formality. I'm not the kind of like, I'm not Martha. I love Martha. I'm obsessed with Martha. I was blessed enough to go up to Bedford and do her show and she showed up, I showed up, she was in her pajamas and made me a cappuccino and fried me an egg. She's so cool. And it was, and she couldn't have been more complimentary to me on her show and my book. And that was like a huge thing because I was so nervous. But I'm not looking to be Susie Homemaker.

29:35And I'm not looking to have this like, everything is so plated beautifully. Everything in this book really is like family style version. And what I love to do, and this is something that I do, doesn't matter how famous the person is, doesn't matter ages, is at the end of the night, take everyone from the table and you come back to the kitchen. And I always have everyone huddled around my kitchen. We're always going to the kitchen at the end of a party or even during the party. And I love it. So literally what I do is, this is also from that same menu that was tonight. I make a peanut butter hot fudge that comes together so quickly.

30:11I make a quick peanut brittle, which is, it's a really good recipe. Really great. Funny enough, I'll give you, It might be out by the time that this airs, but I did a bunch of promo. Obviously, I'm very close to Benny Blanco. We did a bunch of promo videos for the book, and we did one where we built this sundae in a Grammy. Fun. They probably hold a nice sundae. Grammys seem sizable. They held a very nice sundae. I don't know the food safety about what medals we're eating out of, but God bless. I mean, that's— God bless. And so it's like I made the fudge, made the brittle. And then I just pull out a ton of ice cream.

30:48So it's like I always get – I'm on the – I'm sure everyone like on this podcast is on the Jenny's press list. I'm friends with Jenny. So literally like I did this with Jenny. I had Jenny over for dinner a few months ago. And I did just this where you come around the kitchen and you do dessert around the island where I pull out all the ice cream I had. And I do one of two things. We do sundaes or I'll typically have a pound cake in the freezer that I've made. Slice it and I griddle it in butter. Yeah. And just serve it up with some honey and a scoop of ice cream. Having that pound cake at the ready is so smart.

31:24So smart. But the same thing with the fudge. I keep a thing of the fudge in the freezer. The brittle is great in the pantry at all times or it comes together in no time. And you just let everyone kind of build their own thing, do their own thing. And it feels like so communal. and it really is this like, it's a little moment of intimacy. Yeah. Katie Couric pops up in the book a lot. Yeah. And you cooked with her at our Hamptons house. It sounds like she was like tackling the grill in like a kind of a nice way. Yeah. And you have a recipe inspired by Katie's grill skills, but you went to the stovetop.

31:55I went to the stovetop. Yeah, she is, I adore her. Like we met literally, again, through Instagram. She was always just like DMing me because she loves food and she loves food. people and eventually she kind of bullied me into coming over which tbh is actually how benny and i met too i had no idea who he was this was like 2020 and he like dm me like you're my hero i was like who is this man and then next you know i was doing shabbat at his place in la and we became super close are they looking for like a little bit of a for you to cook for them like a slight bit not for them but with them with them okay i think that's the difference that's an interesting thing i've never thought about but that's a big difference of of why i think the waltz come down so quickly is because you're looking for that shared moment of intimacy in terms of cooking with someone, which to be totally clear, it's like, I talk about this a lot.

32:44Like that is the most intimate thing you can do. And I don't cook for money. I like, I just don't want to cook for other people. I don't want to have a restaurant where I do that. Um, but with Katie, we started just like hanging out. We also have a lot of mutual friends that we learned. So our communities overlap a lot. So we did like everything from like, I took her to, we had this crazy date night where I took her she wanted to go see O'Mary so we went to go see O'Mary or if I'm in the Hampton staying with other friends I'll hit her up and be like let me come by and raid your garden and I went over and we did this beautiful dinner and it was really sweet and she did this grilled fish and she made this quick olive dressing and it was just like chopped olives with capers and herbs and red onion she's nice in the kitchen she's got skills yeah and so I took that as like Katie's olive salad and I put it over a steamed white fish in a menu that's called Mediterranean spa food.

33:40I thought that that was a very smart framing of doing like healthier, like lower impact foods. Yeah. And steaming fish is something that I feel we don't talk about enough. Completely. Steaming fish is amazing and having this great tamponade style sauce on top is brilliant. Speaking of brilliant, you have really thought deeply about the fruit salad and you make some choices and I'm for most, I'm for all of them. I mean, I've not made this salad. It sounds really good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Honeydew, kiwi, and grapes. That's like the base of it. But you add this kind of a dressing to the fruit salad.

34:17So we don't think about adding a honey-based dressing to fruit salads often. I think people just like, we cut fruit and put it on the table for brunch or for dinner or dessert, wherever it may be. But you have a real point of view here with the fruit salad. Let's go there. And funny enough, I ended up kicking myself for this because Ziki, Ben Gingy's wife, who's the co-author of their new book, did a fruit salad in their book that they came over and made. And they added all these beautifully, deeply toasted almonds to it. And I was like, damn, I missed something, which I love. I love when I get that feeling.

34:53I did this as this menu. It's so funny. I call it Green Machine. It's a monochromatic green menu. And I did it first. It's funny. I first tested it at my friend's apartment because I was doing this dinner with Isaac Mizrahi, the fashion designer, and Myra Coleman, the illustrator. And I just wanted something that was – it was like really at the cusp of a season of like spring into summer. And I wanted something that was like light and bright. And I do these like cucumber cups that are filled with this like avocado, apple, and radish salad. Cool. And then this yogurt roasted salmon with caramelized leeks.

35:32There's this big farro and cabbage salad. These like white beans braised chard. And then for dessert, I was like, what is green? What should I do is green? But I wanted it also to be really light and bright. And I was like, you know what? I'm done overthinking it. We're going to do a fruit salad. Yeah. And I chose only green fruits, which happened to also be my favorite fruits to do, other than like a really good summer peach. Yeah, I was going to say, peach has got to be on it. Peaches, peaches. Good, good, good answer. But I wanted to really judge it up, and this was something that actually happened in Fire Island.

36:05I had another friend that would do this constantly, where he'd make almost like a salad dressing to put on stone fruit that was really like honey balsamic. Yeah. And it was really nice, and it just added that bit of acidity and that extra bit of sweetness depending on how ripe your fruit is. And so I made this really beautiful mint lime dressing to go on, ton of honey. and it's so simple. It's brilliant to do a green food salad. It's so smart. I'm into that idea. And also Isaac and Myra, cookbook authors themselves, that's like a good crowd to do a recipe test with. Listen, there's always a good crowd when I'm recipe testing.

36:44It's always a good crowd. Take me through the shtetl chic menu. Clever. Ashkenazi food all the way. You've written a book. You wrote a book called Jew-ish. and so this has been your wheelhouse for previous works this book is certainly not that it goes all over the map for food but you're kind of coming back to your roots but you're calling it Shed al Shik yeah it's just something that's so true to me which is that this book is has everything and yet it's still a me book so you have these huge elements of Jewish food and culture throughout and I love Eastern European food I think we're really having this renaissance of it in America and especially New York, especially with chefs like Jeremy Solomon and the girls from Dasha 1946, who inspired my love of Medovic, of the Russian honey cake.

37:41And I started to think, all right, this is really my easy version of a lot of the Eastern European classics. So I do a version of, I call it unstuffed cabbage, which is actually started as like my summer cut recipe because it's just so good macro wise that I used to make. Benny makes it too all the time. It's just, you take all the aspects of a stuffed cabbage and turn it into a giant like baked rice. Really like also kind of inspired by my love of Middle Eastern cooking and things like to beat. Like this was like, how can I take that vibe and marry the two together? Yeah. Instead, I love a pig in a blanket.

38:24I think I have a pig in a blanket in every book I've done. Oh, yeah. So this one I do kielbasa in a blanket. Oh, smart. And instead, since it's so big, you know what I do is I end up cutting them thinner into like chips. So they bake up into these like really delicious chips that you then just dip. So bite size. Bite size. Cool, cool. And then you dip and I make like a quick dressing with vodka. I add vodka into the sauce, which is really nice. And there was another recipe that was inspired also by Jeremy Solomon because he does this salad dressing that's rich with caraway seeds. And I always loved that.

38:59That's the salad at Brooklyn's. Yes. I love that salad so much. At Auggie's. At Auggie's. Yeah, that salad is so classic. It's a great salad. So I love the idea. And I did a roasted beets. And what I do is I treat almost like an Indian tarka where I bloom the caraway and garlic in oil. And then I pour all that hot caraway oil over the beets to dress. And then I just spoon it over, season sour cream. And these are like roasted beets? Roasted beets. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So these are all simple dishes with just like little twists. And then for dessert, I call it a zaftig honey cake because making a traditional honey cake, it's so much work.

39:42And you have to make all these individual layers and do this stack and stack and stack. And instead what I did is I made a brown butter honey batter, spread it onto a half sheet pan, bake it as a one little cake. Like you're almost making a jelly roll. And then I cut them into four rectangles and just stack them with like a sweet and sour cream whipped cream. and in the end it's the same vibe and it's delicious and it takes you no time. I'm going to stick with pastry because you write the perfect chocolate cake recipe as you call it. Yes. And let's just shout out your photographer. Matt. Matt Taylor Gross.

40:18Matt Taylor Gross. Yeah. Same photographer the whole time. Matt Taylor Gross, you killed it with this photo. Yeah. It's like, we see a lot of cake photos, right, in cookbooks. This is like a really nice cake photo. Oh, I love that. Yeah, it's really nice. It's really good. The cake looks cool, so tell me about the cake. It's something that I've just been working on forever. In terms of a birthday, and it would be a family birthday or a niece's birthday or a friend's birthday. And I would be always making chocolate cakes and always tweaking and turning. It's like, all right, how much butter? Do I brown the butter first?

40:48Do I do oil? Do I do this? Do I do that? Using ganache. And again, they're definitely elements of where's my inspiration. I think I've always loved Stella Parks and her cake recipes and Ina's chocolate cake. And then there were like – there are a couple more. And they're all elements or techniques from each that I've loved that I've married over the years into this Frankenstein perfect chocolate cake. Yeah, and it has raspberries. And, well, that's my whole thing. So that's what drew me in because you make a choice. It's like the perfect chocolate cake, period, raspberries, period. So that is amazing because I fully agree that raspberries and chocolate cake is perfect.

41:31Yeah. So the main thing is, is like I wanted a super moist cake. Yeah. I wanted the filling to be some kind of gelled fruit because I wanted to add the acidity and the sweetness and a little bit of brightness so it's not overly rich. Because there's nothing worse than a really incredible chocolate cake and you have two bites and you're like, oh, I can't, I can't. And then for the frosting, it has to be ganache. I'm over whipped buttercreams. I'm over all of that. It has to be ganache. What has the intensity of the chocolate that you want in that? The texture. And the texture, too. I need that texture to be, and I'll really rest in peace in the West Village, Mazé Dar's Devil and Ganache was the true blueprint for me.

42:08It was, my grandmother lived like two blocks away, and we would go, we would always meet for a coffee and share a slice of the Devil and Ganache chocolate cake, and it was like our tradition. What would you talk about? Everything. what show she's seen. She was like, oh, I took the bus yesterday and I was talking with Blythe Danner. Do you know Blythe Danner takes the bus? She was this poor single mother from Brooklyn who worked her way up to Fifth Avenue and she was like one of my best friends and she loved New York and she loved culture and she was always going to the newest show and the newest restaurant.

42:44And it had opinions, I'm sure. And she had opinions on everything. So great. And this cake, like it seems like the kind of cake you want to like it's a keeper for listeners to show you want to buy the book it's like the one you want to pull out I keep saying like buy the book just for the cake yeah no doubt there are two things that I think are going to be the big draws so obviously most of these menus are everyday but I do a full Thanksgiving feast yes you do and each menu comes with your grocery list and your timeline so the ability to I would pay$35 just to have the list written out of like what do I need to order for Thanksgiving every year well that's truly what like real professional chefs they don't need to look at the methods they just need to look at the list.

43:18That's pretty much what it comes down to. You can kind of figure out the rest. It's all about the list. Tell us about your TV show. Jake Makes It Easy on A &E and also streaming on Hulu. It's this really fun, I always wanted like that old school Food Network stand and stir. Yeah. And Rachel Ray, who was obviously, I was raised on three women. And those three women were Rachel Ray, Giada De Laurentiis, and Ina Garten. And they are my queens. And I was really honestly like shook because Rachel and Giada both blurbed the new book. And Rachel was such a huge supporter of mine. I did her show for my first book as like a prerecord.

43:58And then this was actually, I would say really the moment I knew things were happening. And I'm not a very emotional person. and I've done a lot of woo-woo retreats to help cry more. But this was my launch day of Jew-ish and I was watching the Rachel Ray show and I had just done this pre-record so I wanted to see it and she sets it up. And she's saying, hi, this is Jake Cohen. This is his new book. And pretty much starts going off on this tangent of how it's one of the best books she's seen in a long time. I love that. And I started hysterically crying and I just I just knew it's like I've always known I've always known I was meant to be a star and she went from being such a supporter and I did her show a few more times and then she reached out and she's like hey I want to give you your own and so she's the executive producer of the show and it's been really really huge and it's fun it's easy.

44:56I feel like there's chatter online that the stand in stir needs to come back yeah and you're doing it and and everyone needs to watch your show but there's like an exhaustion with the competition right now and i was just on a panel at a food festival with a producer uh and some top chef uh you know chefs and we were like talking about this topic and like i think like people don't want competition all the time there's plenty of great moments when top chef calls because they want a guest judge like yo i'm coming no top chef is a brilliant show and the ratings are getting better by the year, which is incredible.

45:33But we want stand and stir. And so are you seeing your viewers grow and do you feel like this is a real thing? I think it's interesting because it's speaking to an audience that we've been walking away from where I think of who's watching my TV show and who's watching my social content are two different audiences. And my goal is to always bridge that gap. I will say it's like I meet people all the time and I am for these like cool 30-year-old girls and their mothers. And I am this both. I'm both. But also I'm now this connector for these two generations that get to bond over me, which is really fun because they come together to my book signings because they send my videos to each other.

46:25And to have that is really special. So to create a piece of content that both was so important for me because this is literally why I do what I do, was watching these stand and stir shows and seeing something and being like, huh, I can do that. I want to be like that. And it is interesting because this is a female-dominated world, and I will never have the relationship to my audience that – like Meredith from Wishbone Kitchen or Alison Roman or Molly Baz. I will never have that connection to the audience because they're predominantly female. And when you have that kind of bond with a female personality, there is a level of I want to emulate them.

47:12I want to be like them. I want to live like them. I want to dress like them. And I'll never have that because we don't share the same lives. And there's a level of voyeurism that they like that I'm a gay man. But at the same time, it doesn't change that it's like the biggest honor to be able to do what I do. That sentiment, I think it's articulate. And it's important to realize that you can't have everything. Yeah. And every audience member won't connect you the same way that they would with Allison or Meredith. Yeah. But I also think that's important. And whether they want to admit it or not, we're all kind of polarizing figures.

47:47And I think that's the important thing that we're moving back towards, which was so key in the original Foo Network personality. you either love this person and their aesthetic and their style or you could not stand it and that's like we need to start treating food personality celebrities like they're like real people where it's like you meet someone and you either like them or you don't and there's no difference in terms of that so I said this in my second book where it's like I hope you don't like me because I'm not your vibe and not because like I'm a Jew or I'm gay but at the end of the day it's like I want people who they see it and they get it I say this on every I've said this a million times one of my favorite TikTok videos is this girl and she goes it's going to sound like a step back for feminism but sometimes I feel like my personality gets in the way of people recognizing how hot I am and what she means by that which I relate so much to is that when you have a big personality and when you are very authentically yourself people don't get the opportunity to project their idea of mystery on someone that they're attracted to, whether that's physically attracted to or you like the way I cook.

49:01And the issue is that you get people, you get rejection a lot more and a lot faster, but the people who do love it Opposite end. You get attraction. They are in. They're fully in. And it comes down to point of view as well. And having a super strong point of view and not being like middle of the roadsy, which is what we don't want with our cookbook authors, with our television personalities, with our TikTokers. I literally, on my show, this is like a family show, but I give this thing, there's this one recipe I make. I do this version of haraime, like the spicy Moroccan fish, but I do it with tofu.

49:31And the story is, I met this Danish man in Burgheim that I had this love affair with. And he came, it comes up again. It comes up again. I mean, since the last time I've been on, I've been two more times. No way. But he came to visit and this was this meal that I made for him on our one night together. And it's such a beautiful little story And that's the anecdote of where this recipe comes from. It's just sitting there on Hulu right there. This story about me being a businessman at Berkheim. I literally said, for a lot of you, this will mean nothing to you. And I refer to him as the Viking. I was like, I met this Viking in Berkheim.

50:03And he was a vegetarian. And so I made this dish for him. And he loved it. I mean, credit to your producers for letting you do that. Or you are a producer and Rachel is a producer for not trying to play middle of the road. I mean, I'm not going crazy. I sound like I'm doing bumps of ketamine on camera. But you're saying Berkheim on A &E. I mean, I just think that even going back five years, ten years, you're not going to get that on a lot of television programming. I think I don't really care. I think there was a point in which I did care, and I don't really care anymore because I know that authenticity is the most important thing for me.

50:41And as I go through my life, like I know I can always do another book. I literally – this is a great anecdote. So this was last week. I did way too many shrooms and went to the Lady Gaga concert. Oh, fun. It was really fun. But too many. Too many for like, you know, like sometimes I love psychedelics, but this was like, sometimes it's like a, ooh, fire of lights dancey. And this was like, ooh, let's contemplate everything coming up in the next four weeks. With like 40 ,000 of your favorite new friends. Exactly, exactly. And so I ended up having this like real deep introspective moment of like, oh my God, I'm going into another book launch.

51:18I was like, do I actually, do I have it in me? Because I go with my heart on my sleeve and I'm an empath and I take things very personally. And it's really difficult going through this cycle where I've built a piece of art that I think is that I know is magic. Like this book is special. And now I have to convince people that I'm worthy. It's like, no, I am worthy. I love it. This book is going to be amazing. So I'm going through this now from a very different perspective. My last time around, and this is the real honesty that I think a lot of people probably don't give in terms of a podcast like this that's so insider baseball.

51:58which is my first book did very well, instant New York Times bestseller, and I went into my second a mess because I was so terrified that it wouldn't do well that I approached every step of the marketing and the pre-pub and the post-pub with absolute fear. And I was so miserable during it that when I did make the Times list again, it wasn't like all of a sudden and I was happy. Yeah, it was just like a nothingness feeling. It was a nothingness feeling because you realize that's not why you do it. Artist for the artist. Booktube can be that way. But also, I'm not going to lie, I think this is this industry.

52:40These publishers have put a lot on and a lot of this has to do with now it's like you look at all these authors and they're all social native people or any of these personalities that the onus is on them to sell the book and do everything possible and listen, don't get it twisted. Like I'm hustling. Yeah, you sure are. And I'll hustle for this one too. Yeah. But I'm going at it from the thing of I know how great this book is and it's going to do well because it's a great book, not because I kill myself trying to convince everyone. Yeah. It's an important topic we have talked about on the show and it is we will make the book with you and then when promotion happens, we have our teams and we have strategies and agencies we work with.

53:28But it really is the author's job. Sell that book. That's the industry. And don't kid yourself. That's just the way it should be. I mean, I've been on tour myself and it's like you have to do all the things. We just don't, I think going into it, people don't realize how taxing that is. Oh, yeah. And that's the thing. Nobody realizes that. Because making the book is so hard. Yeah, it is. So hard. And then you add on that and it's just like, wow. but I love what I do, and this book is amazing, and you'll catch me on Drew Barrymore's show at the Today Show. Yeah, Jake, you're doing it. You're doing the press run.

54:06I love it. This conversation, man, it's gone to some cool places. I want to have you back on. Whenever. I feel like we have to do Taste Check because we can't end this show without Taste Check. Let's do it. Hi there. It's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on three things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible.

54:47That's the This Is Taste listener survey, link in our show notes. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables and little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there. ButcherBox is a true exception.

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56:03As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year, plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. On This Is Taste, we ask guests about their asserting taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Jake, are you ready? Yeah, yeah. The best fruit? Peach, peach. The worst vegetable? White button mushroom. Very specific.

56:41Tell me why. I just think it's never good. I've never had an instance of it being good. It's always either raw on a pizza or it's like soggy in a dish. Like, uh-uh. I love like fancy mushrooms. Fancy mushrooms are great. Yeah. Preferably cooked. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, raw mushrooms are a tough hang. What is your typical breakfast? Okay, it's cold brew with protein powder and water shaken up. That's how I start the day, but that's an hour after I wake up. And then it'll be like typically either slop and some kind of like overnight oat porridge high protein. Yep, yep. We all have a slop recipe that we have a go-to.

57:16I know what you're saying. All right, big one. The best dessert. Oh, I am tiramisu. Love that. Tiramisu, followed by a warm chocolate chip cookie. Oh, a chaser. Yeah. One, two is perfect. Is there a restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead? Wow. Rotisserie Georgette on 60th and Madison. It was a super special place for me. I worked with the first chef, Chad Browse, when we were at Danielle together. He went on, obviously, to become like the king of R &D chefs for different brands. He did Chipotle. He's now at Sweetgreen. And then my friend Stephanie took over as chef. So it was one of those super special spots.

57:58We did every family occasion. I literally got crazy life moments happened. Georgette was a really dope place. I'm so happy you bring that up. And, you know, a deep Danielle connection to that place with Georgette. man, it just went away? I don't know the story. Yeah, it closed. It just closed. Restaurants closed. This is why we honor them on the show. When you're craving fast food, where are you going? You know, people argue with me sometimes about if it's fast food, but I eat a Chipotle burrito every week. Okay. Every week. And then I would say on top of that, I love, the one thing I love most in this world, post club, post, honestly, I'm not even going to say post club, any moment, but if there is like, if I have any substance or a sip of alcohol on me, the only thing I want are chicken fingers.

58:42And I've recently discovered Raising Cane's. Yes. And I'm in. I'm in. I mean, I feel New York is having a moment. We've had it for a couple years now. It's not like a historical restaurant. No, no, no. But we're having a, this is, you could do a whole episode on this. We're having a chicken finger renaissance. Oh, no doubt. And Raising Cane's is definitely. This is the future of like the adult happy meal. It's chicken fingers. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food? Tel Aviv. Yeah. Tel Aviv is a really special food city. I'll say London right now is having a really great moment food-wise.

59:13Paris is not. Everyone was like, oh my God, I'm going to Paris for the food. They're a liar. They're a liar. There are some great restaurants, but most of it's mediocre, and you really have to work to get food in Paris right now. You have to work similar to Rome. You have to work. Put the work in. If you want. Yeah. If you want. It's like when I go to Berlin, I love Berlin. I think it's a great food city. I haven't really explored it because I'm always partying. Yeah. And well, I was at this other club last time and it was like 630 in the morning. My friend's like, I think it's time to call it.

59:41And I was like, no, no, no, we can't because Sophie opens at 830. So we're going to go straight from the club, Sophie, the bakery for breakfast. And that's what we did. And it was the best call I have ever made. I mean, writing a piece about clubs and the next two hours, the next four hours or something larger. I'm not going to propose, you know, it's funny because New York Magazine just did that piece. we've reached peak gay sluttiness. Yeah, good piece. And I think it was a great piece. I think it is, it's like, obviously, I just don't think everything in my life needs to be publicized. I think you can hear these little hints and that's it.

1:00:19Thank you for reeling me in with that idea. I'm so happy you said that. No, no, no. Listen, it's great. It's a bid for connection. I think intimacy through that and also the fact of having the new hot after spot or different bakeries in New York. I love that. I love it too for bakeries. Last one, your favorite sandwich. My favorite sandwich. My favorite sandwich is a peanut butter and jelly. I love peanut butter and jelly more than anything in this world. I have it on anything from challah to sometimes, depending on where I am, if they don't have it, I makeshift it. I was literally, I was really, I think it was in the pines and we didn't have anything.

1:00:53So we had Ritz crackers. And so I literally take each Ritz cracker. I'm individually making a peanut butter and jelly on each cracker. And yeah, whatever it takes. It's a beautiful choice. I agree. Jay Cohen, you're coming back, I hope. I love this conversation. Thank you so much for joining us. This is Taste. My pleasure.

1:01:14Griffin Owens, Bajal Beshkov, this is Taste. Thank you for coming on the podcast. We are so happy to be here. Thanks so much, Eliza. Yeah, I'm really excited to talk about all things Yuzu with you. I think that anyone who has been going to cafes or restaurants or bars has probably been seeing a lot of yuzu on the menu. Griffin, I see you sipping on a sparkling yuzu drink right now. And I'm excited to kind of dig into all of that with you. To start, I'm wondering if each of you would tell me if you remember the first time you tried yuzu and what that experience was like for you. I'll kick it off and get started.

1:01:54So, you know, I think like so many people, I've kind of been aware of yuzu in Japanese cooking for a really long time, but I didn't have a specific like flavor memory of it until I had it in a cocktail in Tulum, Mexico, of all places and was like, oh my God, this is a, this is an incredible flavor. At the time I was developing beverages. And so I was really like tuned into flavors and was always looking for new things. And that's the first memory that I had where like Yuzu specifically stood out as apart from, you know, everything else that it was with before. So, so much about like globalization of flavors that Tulum is the place where you had it for the first time.

1:02:38What about you, Griffin? Such a great question. I was such a picky eater growing up. And when I was around 11 or 12, a friend convinced me to try sushi. And I was really much more a penne with butter and Parmesan. and the sushi had a yuzu ponzu on it and it really just blew my mind. And I think from there started to open my eyes up to just culinary scene beyond simple foods and experiencing yuzu in that format was really fantastic. I'm proud of you for moving beyond the buttered pasta. My whole family is as well. Yeah, I'm sure. And I mean, we're talking about yuzu being a popular flavor, but I imagine there are probably people listening who maybe are not sure if they've had it before or maybe haven't had it before.

1:03:23And I'm wondering how you would kind of describe if there is a signature yuzu flavor. I would say that, you know, a lot of people are in that boat. Many people are aware of yuzu or they love it or they're like, I'm vaguely familiar that this is a citrus. I would just describe it as really addicting. It is the, it's got all of the best qualities of citrus that I love and it has seems to blend some elements from lots of different types together. I often describe it as like if a lemon had a love child with a mandarin. Yeah, I think, you know, Oro Blanco, like grapefruit, there are kind of other citrus fruits that have a similar kind of fragrance to them or maybe that kind of herbaceous quality, but maybe like Oro Blanco mixed with Meyer lemon if I had to guess.

1:04:14But it really is, you know, this heritage Japanese citrus that has its own distinct flavor. And I guess I'm curious if you could tell me about launching Yuzuko in 2023. What made you go from, you know, tasting this fruit, being interested in it, to seeing that there is some kind of like business model to be had? Long backstory here. my brother and co-founder Nikolai met Griffin and his business partner Marcus one day. This is a couple of years back. And at the time I was working at HealthAid Kombucha and I was developing new flavors. And I had this experience with using, I really sought it out, but couldn't figure out where to buy the juice.

1:04:58So it was like on my radar as a thing. And when we met Marcus and Griffin, and they were working on a Yuzu project and thinking about, you know, flavor and, you know, the opportunity with Yuzu in the same way that, you know, we were and trying to answer some of the same questions, it became pretty clear that like, oh, we all share a common interest in something that we think needs to be like celebrated and promoted. And we don't see anyone else really doing this. So like, I guess that's, you know, that's an opportunity and it comes from a personal need, right? I was specifically looking to solve a problem that I was experiencing that was preventing me from using, you know, the juice in a product.

1:05:43So we very quickly had a meeting of the minds and then we're like, okay, cool. I guess we're starting a business. And what was the first product? So I just chime in there. It was really interesting. We kind of met each other totally randomly in LA just because we had a love of Yuzu. And Marcus and I had a very small brand doing candles and Yuzu essential oils, so more on the fragrance side, which is one of the reasons I really fell in love with Yuzu. And what we noticed in talking to so many people around LA was just Yuzu was super expensive and hard to source. And even if we were kind of paying or subsidizing what Yuzu we could find, no one could really afford it to implement into their drink programs, let's say.

1:06:24And so when we met Basil, those insights were kind of shared mutually. And the first guiding principle or vision rather was that we wanted to make Yuzu shelf stable, have great flavor and cheaper than what was currently on the market. So that's how we got into Super Juice as like the first initial product that we were making. But very quickly, it became clear that we should also offer 100 % juice as well. Super Juice is a brand name. What is that product? What makes it different than 100 % Juice? I'll go ahead and take that one. So when we launched our brand, the conventional advice was really don't do two juices at once.

1:07:03But we decided we would zig where others zagged and said that we do 100 % Yuzu Juice with no additives, just a cold press, really amazing pure flavor that was positioned premium. And then Yuzu Super Juice, which blends up all of the essential oils found in the peel of yuzu and creates what's known as an oleocitrate by adding in citric acid. We also put in malic acid and sugar in terms of our super juice formula. That really extends, you know, instead of one yuzu, you have about five and a half in our recipe in terms of the juice because you're diluting it with water and getting in all that amazing flavor from the peels that would otherwise not be incorporated.

1:07:44So the super juice is kind of like the more like entry level product in some ways. I wouldn't say there's anything simple about Super Juice. I mean, it works better in certain applications than 100%. So just to get technical for a second, Yuzu has this really high percentage of essential oil in the juice, which makes it very flavorful and is the thing we like, but also can make it really difficult to sometimes work with in take a cocktail concept, especially one that uses a really high percentage of juice. I think margarita, right? So super juice really turns the profile of yuzu into something that looks and plays with like a lemon or a lime, which, you know, are very, very, you know, known to every bartender.

1:08:32And so it makes it really work in specific formats where you need that acidity and you need a different concentration of flavor. I guess I want to talk about sourcing with you guys. Where is the yuzu coming from? How have you built the bench of farmers that you're working with? So yuzu is originally from China, but of course, it's really well known in Japan where the most yuzu grows globally. And we started our relationships going into Japan with a couple different farmers and manufacturers. What's really interesting is in the beginning, it was us doing outreach and kind of working connections or network to find different farmers that met our criterion, which was really, you know, passes food safety regulations and also is unpasteurized yuzu juice because we wanted the freshest flavor you could get.

1:09:22And that meant not heat treating the juice and bringing in frozen yuzu juice. So we started with a few farmers. Now we have really a network of anywhere from 15 to 20 different suppliers. And we've actually expanded where we also source from Korea now, which is super interesting, and looking at other countries as well, just because the demand of yuzu is so high. And in Japan specifically, there are different problems with an aging labor force and climate change in Japan that makes yuzu's harvest not as good as what they historically were. We can get into the problems of Japanese farming, but I'll just add that many of the suppliers that we work with they're not used to exporting to the u.s so we're talking like soy sauce manufacturer that makes ponzu sauce and grows some yuzu because they use it in that product and they have extra and like what do we do with it so we're working with um a number of suppliers that kind of fit in that bucket and we're helping them export to the u.s for often the first time.

1:10:31And just really going through the process of understanding, you know, what their needs and requirements are and like, how does that line up with what we need and trying to find people that, you know, we think is a good fit. Yeah. So we can get as much juice as we can. I'd also add that it's an incredibly in-person relationship process. So we're regularly going to Japan and Korea and wherever else to build and maintain these relationships and really learn more about their processes. The user's only harvested once a year. So all yuzu juice is kind of on a pre-order basis. It's not readily available in June.

1:11:14You have to secure it in September, October, and the harvest is in November, December. And it's a very structured process. So you can't really just buy Yuzu juice. You have to work really hard to find the right parties that meet our quality standards, but also work with them to understand their payment needs and so on. Yeah, I think that logistic is so interesting. And I'm curious, you're based in Los Angeles. There's obviously a huge citrus business in California, in Florida. Have you expanded into U.S. Yuzu growing? Is that even happening right now? We are actively in talks to make that happen.

1:11:52And it is on the long term vision. I think that the main thing to keep in mind when it comes to farming is nothing happens quickly in agriculture. That's a 10 year plus type vision. Right. And there's it has its own variables and problems and things that we'll need to figure out. And I'm sure we'll get there. we're very focused on you know the immediate like how do we get like from where we are now to the next three to five years with the correct amount of supply and build our business and introduce our products and help really advance Yuzu in the U.S. without you know running risks of shortages or selling out the product in a way that would, you know, would not feel on brand for what we're looking to do?

1:12:44Yeah. The shortages point I was thinking about just in terms of, I think, like, especially today with social media driven trends and like the global pantry and the way that people expect to, you know, have basically anything available to them. I know like matcha, for example, is another beverage related ingredient that has been experiencing shortages in Japan. It's been causing a lot of stress on global foodways. Like, how do you kind of like navigate that sustainable growth? Obviously, Yuzu Co is a growing brand, but at the same time, there's like people like White Claw and Spindrift that are, you know, putting Yuzu in their drinks as well.

1:13:22So I think we should kind of delineate a couple of different types of situations that we're dealing with here. Sure. We'll put White Claw to the side for a minute and focus on getting the Yuzu juice. And I think the first thing is when we talk about shortage or usage, really it's about availability of the right type of product where and when people need it, right? So that's what we do so much of is trying to make sure that we're purchasing good quantities of Yuzu, onboarding new suppliers continuously and making it available where and when it needs to be in the formats that it needs to be available to.

1:14:07So take, for instance, just randomly, but like Yuzu Juice Powder is an item that we made for a protein bar customer, but it has all these applications in things that you wouldn't necessarily think of like, you know, some like alcoholic products are using it. You know, just having that available helps alleviate a portion of like the experience shortage, like globally on the market. And kind of, you know, the ultimate goal there is just creating like consistent customers that have recurring demand and make new products that are great and sell well and can, you know, afford the premium that Yuzu currently commands, as opposed to, you know, just pushing a flavor that says Yuzu and driving the trends and becoming really hypey for a minute.

1:14:56And then, you know, people forget about it. That would not be sustainable growth. That could create, you know, some serious whiplash issues that we, you know, think best to avoid by just focusing on, you know, selling to people who are also going to be advancing the flavor in the right places in the right formats in the right ways yeah i'm curious about the powder like how is that developed like what what is yuzu powder oh yeah okay so let's let's go there um it's a spray-dried yuzu powder so you mix maltodextrin with whatever your juice sources in this case we're using 100 juice um you want to load up that juice with enough maltodextrin that it can run through this big spray drying equipment that you know turns it from a liquid into like you know a basically powdered version of it it comes out like powdered sugar you pack it in in bags and it works great in you know applications like if you were going to make a use like a salt and you want to have yuzu flavor like it works well there's seasoning blends, cake mixes, anything that, you know, really you want yuzu flavor, but you don't want water content.

1:16:11Like it works really well for that. And it helps solve a problem, you know, that exists on there, which kind of creates part of that disconnect between like, people want yuzu, but they can't find it, you know, we're trying to make it easy for people. Yeah. I'm curious, like that you said you made for a protein bar client, like what are the different kind of main clients for Yuzu Co. Is it a lot of like hospitality? Is it D2C? What's so interesting about us is we really started where our first customers really were this high fine dining crowd. So we give a shout out to Akira Akuta, a longtime guest of This Is Taste as well, who had our Yuzu juice with Kondi day one and said, you should really get this to some of my friends, introduced us to some fine dining places.

1:16:57So So we started servicing kind of like the John George restaurant group and those kinds of customers, Alinea, which was really fantastic. And I think as we've grown, we've continued to support that side of the business. But we also work with national restaurant chains such as Cheesecake Factory and Goop Kitchen here in Los Angeles, developing custom products for them using Yuzu Juice as kind of the unique factor that makes us relevant for that kind of customer. and overall just talking about like you know chair of the business it's right now about a third a third a third between like consumer facing products um like hospitality bars restaurants fine dining and then a third like ingredient sales but we've seen the most growth coming from the hospitality channel and that's really where we love to sell um you know we love seeing people's creation with Yuzu.

1:17:53So we are very encouraged by that. Yeah, I think it's interesting also probably from a marketing point of view, if you are able to have more chefs and bartenders that are using Yuzu, then customers are able to kind of experience it there and then maybe want to do something with it at home. Yes, conceptually, it is a very virtuous circle, right? We like to say that chefs and bartenders and bakers are kind of like Yuzu co-athletes. These are the people who are really the ambassadors and community of our product that are educating the mainstream on what is Yuzu and what is Yuzuko and why we really love working within food service specifically.

1:18:34And they're doing a very difficult job of translating, you know, a traditional Japanese ingredient into formats and using it in ways that make a lot of sense for the ways that we eat here in the States, you know, is pushing kind of our boundaries and our understanding of, you know, where Yuzu can go and how the ingredient can be used and exposing a lot more people to it as well. Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense. I was, you know, referring a little bit to just the level of Yuzu trendiness that we're experiencing right now. And you don't have to name names, but I would imagine that like some of the very big players that are using Yuzu, like maybe are not using like pure yuzu juice.

1:19:20Like, I don't know if there's an artificial yuzu or an oil or something, but like how can consumers like kind of navigate that and understand like what they're really consuming? Such a good question and definitely a potential problem that we talk a lot about, like maintaining authenticity of yuzu as it scales. You know, I think with anything that's expensive and, you know, delicious and has a lot of demand, there's obviously like a huge incentive to just use the name and not really use the product. So the thing I look for when kind of tasting and evaluating things is like, is yuzu juice going into this or like yuzu fruit or is it natural flavor?

1:20:05And it just says that it's yuzu, but it's really a combination of every sort of citrus essential oil used in a way that someone thought tasted like yuzu. But really, there's no substitute for the real thing. And so the more of the real thing that we get out there, the more that people will come to learn and understand what the flavor is. And people will know what it should taste like with more experience trying the product. And consumers are reading ingredient panels more now than I think they ever have. But when you see natural flavors and yuzu natural flavor, you might think that's derived from yuzu.

1:20:46In reality, it's not. And it might incorporate other citrus, but it's not really going to taste like yuzu. And so that's kind of the main problem of why we started Yuzu Co is to make sure you could steward that authentic yuzu experience. So when people are tasting it, it was the real thing. Is natural flavor like a regulated term? What does that mean? Well, yes, it is a regulated term and it specifically covers a large body of compounds that, you know, give basically flavor companies complete discretion over what they put in it and everything wraps up to natural flavor. so it may or may not contain essential oil it may it just needs to be a occurs in nature aroma aromatic compound um so that's a pretty big uh category that can catch a lot of things in and not that i have anything against natural flavors like they can be amazing they taste great they're in so many products uh it's just with yuzu in particular you know yuzu natural there is not a good yuzu natural flavor.

1:21:54There is great, there is yuzu juice. And it really, the flavor and the thing that we love, it goes back to the authenticity of the fruit as opposed to, you know, this kind of, you know, concoction that a food scientist, you know, came up with that won't work for this product. And I'm saying that as a food scientist who absolutely, like, you know it's very pro you know using natural flavors where it makes sense which just doesn't it's not not here that makes a lot of sense i don't know if you've found yourself having these kinds of conversations but i'm really curious what it would be like for a japanese farmer like food producer who has been like growing yuzu for a long time that now is receiving this kind of interest from the u.s like did what is that like do you have those kinds of conversations Yeah, I'm thinking of one conversation in particular with one farmer supplier that we work with very closely where, you know, we were just like chatting, like, you know, it's quite long drives from, you know, the city to the countryside when, you know, you get to chatting.

1:23:04It was like, you know, what do you think about like organic yuzu? Like, what are your opinions on that? And he said, it's a trend. And I'm not sure if I'm interested in it. And I said, well, how do you define the trend? And he's like, you know, is it going to be popular in 30 years from now? And I was just like, whoa, like, that is such a long time frame for anyone to be thinking about. Like, you would, you know, your head would spin at some of the conversations that we have where, you know, people are like all of a sudden coming out and like figuring out what Yuzu is and like trying it out. And I think that it would be, you know, they would, some of the, I think our culture moves so quickly in some ways in Japan.

1:23:44and there's such a deference to heritage and tradition, that there would be a little bit of a disconnect between some of the things that we see. Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot about like, I don't know, kale salad or like some of the like really trendy things from 15 years ago, like maybe people aren't walking around with tote bags that say like, don't kale my vibe on it. But like certainly people are still using kale in their cooking. So maybe there is a kind of intermediary place that you can get to? Well, I think a lot about like, we compare, you know, when we're thinking about where yuzu could go, we talk a lot about like, look at olive oil, look at avocados, look at, you know, things that once were niche fruits and didn't have heavy usage, which have become ubiquitous staples that we wouldn't, you know, we couldn't imagine what life would be like without them.

1:24:37And I think that yuzu is kind of that fits that foundational category of citrus, right? And we use it in so many places and it could grow really, really large in that same way. And navigating the ups and downs of the waves of popularity and usage cycle is like, that's the journey that we're on. Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense. And even just looking at the Yuzuko website, there's kind of a variety of products that you're working on. I'm curious if there's, you know, either anything that like recently came out or that you're working towards that you see as like a new chapter for the brand?

1:25:14I probably point to putting our Yuzu juice in cans and entering the ready to drink market, which was very intentionally, you know, a few years after building the core Yuzu co-brand values of what we're doing with these pure juices. But how do you really make that consumption driven trend where you're able to enjoy our products, not just at the home and on the go. And so that's really where our waters and our sparkling Yuzu Aid and then our green tea Yuzu Aid, we think are the future of Yuzico really being a more consumer friendly brand instead of focusing just on food service, which we still are going to support and want to grow organically.

1:25:57But chefs already know what Yuzu is by and large, and it's just about making it available and having a great product for them at the right price point and having these ready-to-drink products really be the face of Yuzu Co. for consumers. We've also been pushing peel-based Yuzu items like Yuzu Kosho and Candied Yuzu Peel, which are important byproducts that are not juice, but help utilize the fruit and are important for the processors that we work with. So we introduced those items recently and been really encouraged to see their reception. Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. I think certainly if you're talking about sustainability of like a ingredient becoming more popular, like having the peel, which is delicious and flavorful, go to use as opposed to having it be a byproduct, I think seems like a key part of that.

1:26:52The more that we can use every part of the fruit, the better it will be for yuzu in the long run. I guess on that note, to close today, I don't want to make you play favorites too much, but I'm curious if there's a drink or like a dish or even one of your products that is like your favorite way to be consuming yuzu right now. I've been working with like in my home cooking, I've been roasting a lot of Japanese sweet potatoes and I love 100 % juice poured all over those. And that's been like a really, really easy, low lift, but high impact type recipe, which seems to be, you know, what all my cooking is like these days.

1:27:34So I've been, that's, that's the number one thing that I've been working with. I love that. And for me, the summer drink has definitely been a Campari soda with the splash of our yuzu juice is just a really great and refreshing item. Wow. Okay. I love that too. Thank you so much for giving me the Yuzu rundown. I'm going to go try to drink some. Thanks for having us on, Eliza.

1:28:02This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.