669: Behind the Scenes of Topjaw and Sweating Out Michelin Stars with Jesse Burgess

0:00This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. Resi is a digital platform that connects restaurants to restaurant lovers by elevating dining experiences, providing original industry content, and helping to fill some of the country's most exciting dining rooms. Because restaurants have always been more than just places to eat. The amazing world of restaurants is just a few taps away in the Resi app and at resi.com.

0:32You know, when I started making videos with my best bud, Will Waugh, about food in London, you could say, right, mate, 10 years on, Gordon's going to hand you a mic and ask you to talk about the Apple TV Plus show that you've been hosting that he's made. You know, I'd never have believed that. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbarg.

0:59Jesse Burgess is behind Top Jaw, the wildly popular restaurant-centric social account covering the scene in London and beyond. Jesse is also the host of a cool new series on Apple TV +, Knife Edge, Chasing Michelin Stars, which is streaming now. The show follows several restaurants including Cocoduck, Naksu, and The Musket Room in New York and Feld and Esme in Chicago, as they sweated out during Michelin Guide season. Jesse reveals how he views these star-worthy restaurants and what it's like being at the center of food influencing. I hope you enjoy this episode.

1:39Jesse Burgess, welcome to This is Taste. How are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm really excited to chat with you because you do two things I really like. You do Top Jaw. Amazing. I love it. I'm a fan. and then you do this new show Knife Edge which was out on Friday we're dropping this soon after and I love this show you really nailed the Michelin guide and kind of like the drama around it internally at restaurants I think it's difficult to capture that in documentary form without it being too Hollywood and kind of fake and from all accounts I've screened two full episodes and watched two more so I went up to four it's really accurate Right.

2:20Studio Ramsey done a really good job at like having a perfect balance of beautiful cinematography, but also a lot of raw like cameras moving really quickly because they're following the action in the kitchen. And I like that blend. me too it works really well I think you you picked some great subjects too I mean in New York alone I mean you've got um you know Noxu yeah which I think is a polarizing restaurant and it shows that some of the critical blowback from it um on your show and then of course Michelin and you know I don't want to spoil anything you can obviously check out the Michelin guide and see who gets the stars and doesn't but don't do that before watching yeah you know yeah I went to Noxu last night yeah um because it's fun you know we go to these restaurants we get stuck in i do of course eat but there's three cameras around me and you know they have like cameras eat first right so they film the dishes and then i can sort of go in um so it's nice to return to the restaurants and have a proper dining experience with like no cameras except for your own exactly yeah that's good um yeah i just i think it's a terrific show before we get to more details about the the about but a knife edge.

3:30I'd like to hear about Topjaw. I'd like to hear about how you and Will, how did you land on this format that it really works? Like the man on the street interview is obviously part of social vocabulary these days, but you guys are great. You're great on camera. How did you land on that? So Topjaw, we started at 10 years ago. So for the first like eight years or seven and a half years, it was very much like a passion project just for Will and I to do as like a hobby. So we had other things going on, but like some friends go and play golf together or whatever, we would go and make a video. And of course, like because of that, we weren't playing to the algorithm.

4:10Growth was quite slow. And then it got to about sort of late 2022, early 23. And we were discussing, we were like, God, I don't think we can carry this on. Like it's not really making any money. It's quite a big undertaking. there's an expectation for us to keep posting and will was starting a family and it was just a bit it was a real crossroads and so we had a chat and we're like right do we pack this in or do we just throw everything out all right one last stab and we had about we had a certain amount of money in the bank account that we saved up over seven years eight years which was quite pathetic really um like a car like you could buy a car with it yeah okay not an incredible one okay but you know Yeah, there was a car there.

4:57Nuff said, nuff said, nuff said. And we decided like, okay, we could take this money. We could hire like a little studio so that we're together. And we could employ one member of staff to then sort of help us. And we've probably got eight months to a year run rate until everything's dry. Not paying ourselves anything, obviously, but that's that. And we thought, you know what? Let's just go for it. and I had a friend Joe who's an American guy and whenever he came to London big foodie I'd take him to restaurants and I'd always basically gossip with the chef like talking about you know where I've loved recently where they've loved you know what's really exciting what's a bit disappointing what chef has moved where and he sort of observed this a few times and just said that's your short form because we had no idea it was all YouTube long form videos we wanted to get into you know, TikTok, Instagram reels and stuff.

5:55And he just went, if you could bottle that up, that would be a great like social series. And so that's when we started doing Best of London. And the first one that we put live was like... What was that one? It was with a chef called Don Fernando. And he's a Sri Lankan guy. He's got a restaurant called Paradise in Soho in London. And, you know, it was, he was then helping us beckon other chefs out of their restaurants to come and do these interviews with us. And from the very start, we asked, you know, best restaurant in London, which is a really difficult question. Crazy question. Impossible answer.

6:28Yeah. But we know that. That's the point. That's the point. And then also we always ask most overrated as well, because I always fill up with an opinion. If you just say everything's amazing. Yeah. What is amazing? If everything's art, what is art? No, it's great. But like with the overrated question, it kind of grounded. If you're willing to say something is not saying it's terrible, but just has a little bit too much hype, then the rest of your recommendations become a lot more potent. Yeah. And like they want to make sure you're just not doing PR. And I like that you put at the top of your gram that you do not take money from any of these restaurants, which is kind of the exception here.

7:07tell me about the research that goes into your current top job productions because like you guys are really really uh informed you go to cool places uh and how do you select the restaurants because i'm sure every single restaurant is pitching you obviously uh but how do you pick um it's often we'll profile places where we've been before basically i am i am out and about all the time. Okay, cool. Or I'll know a chef and maybe they worked as a sous chef somewhere else and then they've opened their own place or head chef. Like, you know, like any industry, there are people sort of move around and you can sort of spot like, oh, that's going to be good because they're there.

7:49You know? It is a people, it's hospitality, right? It's people-led business. So you just follow the good ones. And I go to a lot of like pop-up restaurants and like I'm going to one when I get back that's in someone like a chef's home in North Finchley. Oh, cool. Which is, you know, it doesn't get much more grassroots than that. I love that. Have you done Rambaton yet near Burrow Market? Oh, God, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that spot. Yeah, Cynthia is awesome. Cynthia's dope. I love her. She's done on the show. How do you think about the responsibility of featuring these restaurants? Because there's obviously, when you put them on Top Jaw, they have to be ready for that moment, right?

8:25Because like the lines and the crowds do arrive. arrive yeah i think we we have a great like audience i'm really i'm so proud of like the audience that we have because they're they're discerning people um they're not necessarily the people that are just going to go stay and stand in line for a bayonet that they've seen online like they are they're kind of going out for a special meal or whatever and they want to make sure they spend their money wisely in the right place um and i think they like the story behind the restaurants, not just, here's a massive cheese pull. You know, we don't do that.

8:59Well, I like you. I mean, you're a journalist in many ways. I don't know if you consider yourself that, but you're actually like reporting. You like shake your head a little bit? Yeah. Yeah, I wouldn't say a journalist. Closer than most. I'm just a real, like, I just love this industry. Yeah. And I love food and I love people. Okay. And so therefore, nothing is more rewarding to me than a restaurant like opening. the other day Dom Hamdy opened a restaurant called Canal and you know it's in a really weird part of town it's in like a new building on a canal with loads of graffiti over the road like over the canal and again he is like a discerning restaurateur he's not doing Instagrammable food he's just doing really delicious food and it is really out the way no restaurant was there before no other restaurant really is around and so there's no footfall And so for him, you know, PR and getting the name out there was really important.

9:58So we went, profiled the restaurant still whilst there were building works going on around us. But I knew the chef, I knew Dom. And also, if we film somewhere and we don't particularly like it, we won't put the video live. So if we like the food, that video is going live. And, you know, he said that they got 800 bookings overnight from this video that we put live. And he was like, without that, you know, it would have been really tough. and that is just the most rewarding thing ever. Yeah, clearly that's why you do it. I mean, you obviously have a business and it does well, but like you clearly love restaurants and it's infectious, it's great.

10:32Yeah. Yeah, let's talk about the show Knife Edge. I mean, just from the jump, like for you and your producers and I know Gordon Ramsay's involved, like what was so compelling about Michelin? Because I think like there's a lot of lists, particularly in the States and like James Beard sometimes goes above Michelin in some circles, But the more I've been talking with journalists and folks about the rankings of restaurants, we always come back to Michelin. It's truly right now on this morning recording it, the most influential awards program for a restaurant. At least getting butts in the seat. I like the way that you've classified that it's this morning as of this morning, as if like in three days time.

11:12Somebody's going to upset Michelin. But it's a really I just love how secretive it is. I feel like it's, we're watching a movie about a world that has this elusive, secretive, like CIA type operation that would never exist in the real world because an inspector would go rogue or someone would compromise it in some way. Like it's a tire company 125 years ago that started a guide to effectively encourage people to wear their tires down. And yet still today is the most relevant and prestigious culinary award there is. And I think that's just, yeah, really fun. I mean, particularly in places like New York, L.A., I know they're launching in the South.

11:54It's like wherever European tourists are flocking in the States, they are looking at Michelin and Asia as well. So I think that with James Beard, that's a big awards program and it's very coveted and prestigious. But you're not really getting the European travelers and the Asian travelers caring much about a James Beard award. This episode is brought to you by Aura Frames. If you're one of those last-minute shoppers, you might know the feeling. Ideas are running low and the clock is ticking. Here's a fun idea. Aura Frames. Aura Frames is the solution with a gift that feels personal, a little curated, and sent with love.

12:31And a gift that can be purchased in no time with a few clicks of the mouse. Aura Frames are great. They sent me one to check out and it was really cool and dumb simple to set up. I loaded photos using the app, and it was displaying them instantly. There are no limits to the amount of photos you can load, and you can customize messages with each photo. And here's the deal. You can preload an Aura frame with photos and have it directly sent to that special person in your life, gift-wrapped and all. There will be no price tag, and you can include a personalized message. Think about it. All those photos from this past summer's family reunion delivered in a digital frame.

13:09That is pretty cool. For a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting AuraFrames.com to get$35 off Aura's best-selling Carver Matte Frames, named number one by Wirecutter, by using promo code TASTE at checkout. That's A-U-R-A frames dot com, promo code TASTE. The deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast, so order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. From February 20th to March 7th, dive into Canada's biggest culinary festival, Montreal en Lumière, an exclusive partnership with the McCord Stewart Museum and its exhibition, On the Menu Montreal, a restaurant story.

13:55The 2026 festival invites food lovers on a flavorful journey through time. Montreal's top restaurateurs will reimagine 65 years of the city's iconic astronomy, crafting inventive, nostalgia-inspired dishes with a modern twist. Prepare your palate. World-renowned chefs, including several Michelin-starred talents, will team up with over 80 of Montreal's finest local chefs to create unforgettable, one-of-a-kind menus. The full program is available at MontrealOnLumiere.com, presented by Lotto Quebec in collaboration with National Bank. Let's go back to the inspector's part, because I like, you're definitely doing the dramatic, you know, mood lighting, identity is not revealed.

14:38Interviews. So these are real inspectors that you're talking about on camera. First time ever. It's not like some actor. So, okay. So the producers did interviews with the Michelin inspectors, but of course they didn't want even the producers to know who they were. I see. That makes sense. So it was all under, all behind the screen basically. And so when they then did the, like in the series that you've seen, Those are actors. Those are dramatic drama. Those are actors, but the voice is the inspector. Yep, that makes sense. And I'm glad you clarified it. I actually assumed that. Yeah. But when you're talking to inspectors, and we've had a former inspector on our show, and she revealed what she could legally about the program.

15:18But what did you learn about these inspectors? And also, I know that there's a couple of former inspectors that go around doing interviews who aren't former inspectors. Interesting. Because there's no way they can prove it. I was talking to the Michelin about this, and there are people that write these Reddit posts that say, oh, I'm a former inspector, and they're not. No, we have Mahira Rivers. She's a writer for Taste, and she's been on the record multiple times as a former inspector. I trust her, just to be clear, that you're not referring to our inspector. Oh, no, no, no, no. But yeah, there's probably con people.

15:48Like, I was an inspector and try to get in free to restaurants now. But, like, Jesse, what did you learn from these conversations with the inspectors and really for our audience? What are they looking for? so they're judging on five things right the the quality of produce the harmony of flavors the the techniques the mastery of cooking technique the consistency and the personality of the chef and that fifth one because to get one michelin star you need to be nailing all five of those but to rise through to get two and three star you need to have so much personality on that plate like Like you need to have, they say for someone to, like a chef could eat that dish or an inspector could eat that dish and go, I think that's by Yannick Heleno or Helene de Rose.

16:35And that is how you get to two and three star, which I think is so interesting. I love that. So if you can make a clear name for yourself on the plate and you have an identity that you're like, that's a coconut dish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. As featured on the show, Bib Gourmand star. But anyways, that is important. It's like a musician having a really unique sound. Yeah, right. It's that exact thing. And you can be a great musician and not quite have that signature sound. And it's the same with chefs. Did you get a sense about how much these inspectors are dining out? Like what their actual life is like?

17:10So much. I mean, especially in the lead up to ceremonies, they have to be sometimes doing three meals a day. I bet. At that level, which is crazy. they have to have eaten a thousand meals of that ilk to qualify as inspector right so in the application process which is secretive that is a data point that's interesting so they have to have proven that they've been to a thousand meals around that of this level of michelin yeah that's really interesting yeah yeah i think that's good to hear what i find interesting is it doesn't hinge on one inspector no so yes if you have a bad service and you have an inspector that comes in you give them a bad time that is that could be curtains for you but you will be inspected by multiple inspectors and then they have to unanimously agree like a jury on whether or not to issue you a star so if one inspector goes i had the best time ever and another one says yeah me too me too great but if one person goes no way it sucked then you won't get a star it's it makes sense because you need to be unequivocal about that one star status and that's the consistency right so exactly if you're great five times out of six that's not star worthy that must drive the restaurants fucking crazy well exactly and i think that's what nightly shows really well because they are so tied into this one inspect you know if they suspect someone is an inspector gosh that's a really weird sentence if they suspect that someone is an inspector they will be like all over that that inspector but i really like in the series one inspector saying yeah they were fawning all over the table next to me yeah right and actually i was the actual inspector wonderful yeah so did you while filming this series and and to be clear the series goes from new york to chicago to denmark to london to italy uh yeah do you ever mexico to mexico too i haven't watched that episode yet uh did you ever film an inspector did you ever catch one on camera no well yes i think yeah because obviously in most of the episodes there there are moments when they go i mean most most nights these chefs are trying to pick out who is inspector yeah and they might you know we catch lots of the thing lots of these scenarios in the series but it's because it's happening all the time yeah you know they have someone who's maybe on their own and taking pictures or maybe they're in a couple and they're asking questions or they're french yeah you know And your mind just starts going crazy.

19:40Yeah, because we know that a lot of the inspectors are based in Europe and they travel outside of territory. And then same with Americans traveling to Asia. I know Mahira said I think she traveled to Asia. I mean, what I love about Knife Edge, on Apple TV +, now, to be clear, I got to shout it out because you got to find it. You know, it's the psychology. It's very stressful. to operate a restaurant in New York, but to be at the caliber that you're searching for that one star or elevating from one to two, you can't stay sane. Yeah, they say you're sort of only as good as your last service, which is, you know, quite a treacherous way to operate.

20:25But the thing is, it doesn't matter to these guys. Like, they only want to do that. Yeah. You know, I liken it to being like an actor, you know. like you'll find an actor who only wants to be an actor, you know, and will go years and years like out of work or working bar jobs because that's all they want to do. And these guys are the same. They just, they are doing it not really to earn loads of money because it is a terrible way to earn money in terms of it's so fraught with risk and, and, you know, pressure, but they are doing it because they just are obsessed with the craft and they want the respect of their peers.

21:05And yeah, it's a really fascinating industry and way to operate. Yeah. And you really do show the stress boil over. Let's talk about the New York episode, which I was drawn to living here. First off, I just love the restaurants you profile. I mentioned Kokodak, Naksu, and then Musket Room. Those are the three that you really focus on. And we've had, I think, all of those chefs on the show. So it's nice to see you recognize them. What did you learn about these restaurants and like this dynamic in New York with Michelin? So, yeah. So Michelin have been in New York for 20 years, I think. It was 2005 they came here.

21:44Yeah. And so where you have it in like France, where they've been 125 years, Italy, I think they've been 100 years. The UK, they've been for many, many decades. All the chefs have grown up with it. Whereas like Eric Rappert in New York, or that's a bad example because he's French. Yeah. But, you know, American chefs or people like, you know, Bobby or Mary from Musket Room, like they haven't grown up with Michelin. It's a newer thing. So it's not like they were running around when they're a kid being like, I want to be a Michelin style chef, which I think you get in Europe. You know, some people are just like, boom, right from when they're super young.

22:23But I think with every year, awareness is growing for Michelin. Oh, yeah. And, you know, I'm really happy to see they've just gone to Texas. I mean, I kind of disagree with some of their, like, some of their shouts in Texas. Give me one. What do you disagree? Well, I love, the thing is, they are way more qualified than me. So what do I know? But in terms of my own experience, Franklin, you know, because they gave Michelin stars to a few places, barbecue shops in Austin. And they didn't give one to Franklin. Really? They gave it a Bib Gourmand. Yeah, and Le Barbecue probably got one, right? Which one?

23:02Le Barbecue? Le Barbecue did, but Ali's fantastic. I love that she got one. But yeah, I just can't believe that you didn't get one there. Yeah, Travis C down in Austin. I love the little path you took us on there. I almost go back to New York. No, I appreciate it. Dude, Jesse, you're my guy. Let's talk shit about Michelin when we can't make mistakes. It's not that. It's just, you know, because also this show is not a fluff piece for Michelin as well. Like, you know, I think Michelin encourages chefs to really push the boundaries. And without it, we probably wouldn't be as advanced in what we experience, right?

23:35It's like F1 technology filters through eventually into cars. And I think that Michelin encourages chefs to push, push, push, push, push and innovate and just be really creative. And then that then comes down to very casual dining. And I love that. I mean, once again, Michelin today, as we record this, is the most influential reviewer, ratings, guide, listicle, whatever you call it, that we have for butts in the seat. I want to go back to the original point about the 20-year cycle. I agree, like, there's definitely not that heritage in the 100 years. But 20 years in New York is, like, literally everyone who works in New York right now.

24:13So I think, like, while you are – it's true they didn't grow up as children thinking about Michelin. And I think that every single chef working in New York has grown up with Michelin in New York being what you strive for in most restaurants. Not all, but most when you're concepting the restaurant. Yeah. Let's move to Chicago. I love the choice of Feld. I think it was really smart to obviously see the future with this restaurant that is well documented on the show. It was a very controversial opening and very polarizing restaurant. I've not been but I think the people I respect the most rave about it and think it's truly one of the most remarkable restaurants in America.

24:55Tell me a little bit about that case and also Esme which is another restaurant in Chicago but it's a different scenario. It's trying to elevate from one to two and there's a great data point on the show where when you elevate from one to two on average you receive 40 % more business which is that was a great stat. Yeah, so that stat is actually from the late, great Joel Rubichon. So he said that with one star, it's 20 % more, two stars, 40 % more, and three stars, buckle up, it's like 100 % more business. And I don't know, part of me thinks that it's actually more than that. Probably is. For one star in particular.

25:35Because to go from no stars to one is a huge deal. Yeah, I mean, the 50 ,000 restaurants in New York and you're like anonymous, basically, unless, of course, with the New York Times and New York Magazine, you get great editorial. But like no people in who are coming from Lyon to America aren't reading the New York Times, really. They're checking out Michelin. But tell me about Feld a little bit. Set up the restaurant because I think our listeners may be interested in checking it out. Totally. Yeah. So Feld in the Ukrainian village in Chicago. um jake set up this restaurant he wanted to do 30 courses which is a lot i mean they do come at you yeah and obviously it's not like 30 lasagnas it's 30 bite-sized dishes basically um and he wanted to do change that menu basically every day yeah uh i saw that tv show the what i saw that that's my first and only bear reference on this conversation oh i see that was the whole thing on the show sorry continue continue but it's so knife edge is the real version of the bear basically i think just because you brought that up i mean it really is it really is um and i love also they've done so well with the sequences where it's like playing with the chef's mind like you get in the bear it's like service or doors and then bam bam bam bam it really channels that energy like to you straight away um but yeah feld he's he's very avant-garde he's very i mean he will serve you a dish that will just be like a tomato slice of tomato on a plate and you go what what are you doing and it's because he'll just say that's the best tomato in the country and his point is like i know this is unconventional i know it's kind of crazy but i'm trying to platform produce he talks so much about his like relationships with all his suppliers platforming produce is amazing that's a quote from him that's a really really great i I think I just said that.

27:33Yeah, you said that. I don't know. I was like, that's an amazing way to say it. Yeah. Loved it. But, you know, he constantly talks about, you know, he'll serve you a piece of cheese or whatever it is, and he'll tell you all about the cheese maker. Like, oh, this is from Danielle in Maine or whatever that may be. And I like that, that he's celebrating the suppliers because most restaurants you go into, you haven't got a clue who supplied them. Maybe they'll talk about their meat supplier, but that's about it. And so that is very different. But, you know, he stuck his head above the parapet doing something very rogue.

28:08And I think that, you know, it was very divisive. Not everybody loved it. And, yeah, I won't say too much because I want you to watch the show. Yeah, let's not spoil it. But it is, you know, it was, I love the comparison between him and then Chef Norm at Carino. And Chef Norm is sort of, I guess, maybe doing things a bit more conventionally. Incredible food. I was doing an interview with Forbes and they were like, if you go back to one restaurant tonight, what would it be? And I said, Carino. Carino in Chicago. I love that. It's like a lesser known restaurant on the national scale, but clearly aiming for stars.

28:44So this is really interesting. So is Feld way more known than Carino? To me, in my little small world and with my peers. Really? But I don't live in Chicago and I don't go there with that much frequency. Of course. But what I mean is that in terms of like the industry. I think Feld, at least from my seat, is because of that early polarization. And then, of course, their performance with Michelin and this high concept. It's getting some interest. But it's so competitive, Jesse, when we talk about what has the national attention. That's why this is such a great show and important to knowledge how difficult it is to give a star to a restaurant.

29:22Because there's some great restaurants that haven't even been on the radar for Bibb Gourmand. I think, obviously I'm really hoping the show does well, but I think it's going to be really fun to go and eat the show like we did last night at going to Noxu. And I love it because I know Jing, I know Bobby, I know Chef Day because doing the show, but watching the show, you'll know them just as much as I do. And then it's fun to then go there and eat those dishes that you saw on the show. and you've seen into the chef's homes. You've been with them when they're talking to their family or their friend in a cafe or whatever.