675: The Incredible Nite Yun and Why Cambodian Food Is So F*cking Good

28:24And it's like, rock and roll is obviously the root of it, but it has its own unique presence. Talk about the music a little bit. Yeah, so in the 50s and 60s, leading up to the 70s, it was the golden era of Cambodia, where like the art scene was thriving. And then there, there was like this renaissance of musician that just wrote such badass Cambodian rock and roll music that was inspired by American rock bands, the Beatles. There's like some blues influence, but also like it's very psychedelic at the same time. and there was this great like artist movement but unfortunately that was all lost because of the genocide and you know what i tried to do celebrate the good times um like put that in a time capsule like at the restaurant when i you know when i had down by like the golden like the rock and roll music was very dominant uh it's always in the background and then also in luna cambodia i try to bring that same vibe too oh i can't wait to visit so you end you end your book brilliantly.

29:28And you titled the final chapter, The Donut Shop. And it's apt because there's a long history with donuts and Cambodian food. But tell us a little bit about this final sweet section and this history of donuts and Cambodian culture. Yes. So the dessert chapter is tied with The Donut Shop. If you know, you know, but because, you know, most of the donut shops are, the majority of donut shops are operated by Cambodian's family in California. I would have to say like at least, I mean, I might be wrong, but I want to say 90 % of like Cambodian donut shops like in LA or in California are owned by a Cambodian family.

30:07And some signs to notice is to look for is if you see like an altar in the back with like a Buddha statue or like a portrait of the Ghor Wat, it's definitely owned by a Cambodian family. But if you really want to test it, you walk into a donut shop and say, which is hello. And then they'll give you like a really big smile and like some free donuts. But to me, the donut shop represents like our survival story, how resilient the people are. And like, it's a place where Cambodians can come and bond. And it's a place and it's, it shows how the Cambodian people can turn some, turn the bitter past into something so sweet.

30:48Yeah, it's really smart. And the recipes are great too. I mean, it's kind of misleading because it's not like a chapter about donuts. I mean, there's all sorts of other recipes. What's a dessert recipe that you're really proud of? There's this dessert called nomkroj, which translates to orange dessert in a way because it's covered in sesame seeds and the texture is very much like an orange skin. but it's like a crowd favorite at Yan Bai, which is a fried mochi ball stuffed with palm sugar and then covered in sesame seed. Beautiful. I love it. I would have many of those if I presented with the opportunity.

31:31It's addicting. Yeah. Oh yeah. Mochi and sweets. Oh my gosh, please. On This is Taste, we asked guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire. fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Let's go. The best fruit? I would have to say right now, black mission fig because they're just so cute looking. They are. The aesthetics of them are really, I agree because like, you know, obviously you bake with them in the fall. It's really amazing. But like the aesthetics are kind of perfect. Yes. So cute. So cute. The worst vegetable? Oh my God. Beets for sure.

32:08Every time I see them at the market, I would just roll my eyes at them. I hate it so much. Cosign. What is your typical breakfast? I love eggs so much. So any variation of eggs for breakfast, either soft boiled eggs or like scrambled, I'm good to go. Nice. The best dessert? Currently, I'm really into tres leches because of the condensed milk. Yeah, that's a good one. A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead? uh well this is wild because the rest this restaurant actually came back to life which was um turtle tower in san francisco it's a vietnamese restaurant that serves one of the best like chicken pho and it reminded me so much of my trip in hanoi um so i was so sad that they closed down during the pandemic but a few months ago they opened back up within walking distance from the ferry building so i'm so happy wow it's like a this this question is asked and we don't really have happy endings for them, but you've given one amazingly.

33:07Cool. I love it. When you're craving fast food, where are you going? I mean, if I'm going to do fast food, I'm just going to go hard and it's Jack in the Box. You know, they have curly fries, waffle fries, like tacos in a bag. Yeah, Jack in the Box is my go-to. Love that response. We haven't had it yet on this show. When you can get tacos and waffle fries together, that's a great day, I think. your favorite city outside america to visit for food i mean of course cambodia like siamidea in cambodia it's like everywhere you go there's like delicious bites everywhere um but i would say second place is taipei taiwan amazing uh let's go back to cambodia when you're visiting uh and we you know we we know where it is but we have never been as a potential traveler how do we uh visit cambodia what's your recommendation plan about a week um but you You might fall in love with Cambodia and you might extend your trip a little bit longer.

34:05So I would definitely say fly into Phnom Penh, spend a few days there at the Central Market, and then you would go to Siem Reap, check out the temples. But also in Siem Reap, you'll find traditional Cambodian food that chefs there now are breaking back or researching Cambodian food from the past and making their own. So it's a very exciting time to eat in Siem Reap right now. there's like Watamnak that I recommend or Lam Ong which is also very good and then also the beaches in Cambodia are like so underrated there's Koh Rong like Bunny Island Beach is also a must visit so I'll just start there that's a great survey I just absolutely want to visit this is amazing last one your favorite sandwich oh gosh this is a hard one but I always go back to peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

35:01Great response. How do you do it? What's the build for you? I usually, anything from Saba jam. Saba jam is locally made here in the city. Any of our jams with like a creamy peanut butter on milk bread or like just plain old wheat bread is like the way to go for me. Without the crust actually. Oh, a little bit at the end. Okay, no crust there. Yes, cut the crust off. You don't need them. Night, Yun. Thank you so much for joining us this day. Oh, thank you for having me. That was fun.

35:35Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there. ButcherBox is a true exception. I was sent a box of premium beef and pork and was blown away by the quality and variety.

36:10There was 100 % grass-fed pasteurized ribeye, tri-tip, and ground sirloin for my favorite at-home smash burger recipe. George Motes, you better watch your back. For pork, they sent me a beautiful center-cut pork loin for slow roasting. I was super impressed, and I haven't even talked about the ribs, which I cooked in my Instant Pot. There was a rub of salt, white pepper, and togarashi, and I pressure-cooked with water and apple cider vinegar. It was incredible. These ButcherBox ribs are amazing. For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year, plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste.

36:59Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. Sarah McLean, welcome to This is Taste. So fun to have you here. I'm so excited. I'm already just like so into it. I already have questions. I love it. Well, you're a podcast host. You host Faded Mates, which is, you know, one of the most prominent romance novel podcasts. And I'm going to link to it in the show notes. Check it out. I love when podcasts are so specific and really know their, they call it domain expertise.

37:35Oh, is that what? I just thought it was being weird. So I have like another podcast host on the other end of the mic here. Yeah, which is really fun. And so I have a question for you about cookbooks. Oh, my God. From the jump. I'm just taking over. Let's do it. Let's do it. This is Taste with Sarah McLean. Yeah. Welcome, co-host. You're always welcome back. We can do three things as well. We can talk about some of our favorite things that Eliza and I do. Yeah. So you have done three cookbooks, you said. And so now lore in publishing is that there used to be a time long ago where there were kitchens in publishers.

38:10Wow. Is that true? Absolutely not. That's not. I mean, you know, I think of Judith Jones as being like a real like Titan. She was an editor at Knopf and like, you know, was Julia Child's editor. And I think in the film version of Julia Child's life, Judith Jones is a character. And to my knowledge, there weren't like there wasn't a test kitchen at the Random House office. It was like the home kitchen of the editor. They would go home and then cook at home. Yeah, and that's the tendency of an editor. And when we're doing acquisitions here, all of our acquiring editors, when they look at a proposal closely, they go home and cook the recipes.

38:55It's very important. Amazing. Yeah. This is like a dream job. It is. I mean, why?

39:03Do you need me to tell you that you have the right job? No. Oh, my job is – I love my – I thought you meant editing cookbooks because I was – I mean, I think that must be really cool. Although it does strike me that for a lot of chefs, measurement is not like really – it's more a vibe. Well, for chefs to adapt a fully scaled restaurant recipe to the home kitchen is a task. Yeah. Some are really great at it and learn. Some hire people to do that. Right. Like a writer. I think in their kitchens they have these like laminated manuals basically with a gram scale measurement. and like many of them are very precise.

39:44But when you get them into the home kitchen, it's like a shit show, frankly. I think the acquiring job is really difficult. I want to give them like full respect. It's very cool to work with food and work with food culture and around that. But it's still like in book publishing, you know, your friends on the editorial side and the marketing side, you know, we'd be working here. And I'm not thinking you imply that it's an easy job. Oh, no, no. In fact, I imagine it's very difficult. I mean, I know how difficult it is to write. I know how hard my editor works to get to wrestle, let's say, my words into a legitimate book.

40:23I can't imagine. I imagine. And you don't actually have to produce anything from my books except, you know, hopefully buying another one. Yeah. I mean, they don't have to actually prove something. It's an imaginative relationship. Yeah, but I mean, I can't imagine. I mean, I think it must be really cool to go home to your kitchen and cook something that is glorious because somebody else gave you the recipe for it. Extremely cool. And I think what the editors love most about the job is interacting with their authors and learning about a culture. Like if you're in a book project as an editor in a cookbook and you don't know about Burmese cuisine and you've got this expert and that you're reading, you know, 80 ,000 words from this expert, you as an editor through osmosis are becoming a bit of an expert yourself.

41:13And I think they just have such curiosity. And I imagine they also have to be like deeply decent people because the editorial process on that as like, I think there's something wrong with this recipe is, I imagine, delicate sometimes. I think like a great – this is a great conversation to kick off. And then I'm going to talk to you because we have a lot to cover because I love everything about your 20-book career, your podcast, and romance as a genre is very cool. I think that the key to a great relationship between a cookbook editor and the author is having a great trust in both ways. But I think the acquiring editor needs to trust their author that what they're saying is what they need to say.

42:01And like, yes, there's a copy editor and there's a line editor and there's multiple passes that will go through the recipes. But if you've like I can paper edit a recipe really well now. So I don't even have to go to my kitchen and I can like go through a recipe. Oh, interesting. That's so great. So I know like there's like common mistakes. There's like some real like copy editing things. Obviously like ingredients and directions. Tissue into tablespoon. Yeah, stuff like that. And, like, I think by the time you've done a few books, you become second nature. The real work is about framing of recipes in the head notes.

42:31It's about, honestly, making sure that the recipe sells itself, that the recipe title is really interesting, that it's not just, like, bean soup. It's, like, a little more descriptive. Yeah. I would buy bean soup, though. I mean, it depends on the beans. I mean, like, let's get some, like, six beans. Fava beans. A fava bean soup would be fucking kidney beans. You're very seasonal here. I am. I just, you know, I just I just bought fava's at the farmer's market. I want to tell me about the romance genre. I mean, I just want to know broadly for our audience. You know, there may be some readers here.

43:05Shut up. We're not talking about beans. Well, listen, we are going to talk about food. You're a Rhode Island native and we're going to go deep in Rhode Island. You're not even ready for what Rhode Island delivers food was. I know you're ready. I want to know about your work, though. and the genre is extremely popular and what I love about what I know is that the fans of romance love romance and they read a lot of books and that's amazing to have like cookbooks like we don't know I mean some people read them some people don't but when you're writing a book people are reading your work like a lot so when you're thinking about the genre and your work what makes it really what sets it apart what makes a great romance novel Listen, romance is all about feelings.

43:50It is the genre of feelings. And I think that it does it often better and more powerfully than all the other genres because that's what we do. That's the work we traffic in. Right. So the story of a romance novel is people falling in love. Like that's the baseline of it. And if you know from your own life, like love looks really different between different people in different relationships at different times. Love over the course of a relationship. And this is not just a relationship, a sexual relationship. It's also about, you know, relationships with friends or relationships with families. The work of romance is to tease out all of the emotion that comes with the relationships that we have together.

44:45Right. And and I think that what romance does really beautifully is it turns every interaction into a moment of connection. Right. Like you and I, we've never met before. This is our first time. I'm sitting across from you. And like we now have a relationship. And we're going to walk away from this with emotion about each other. Yeah, and about Rhode Island food too. And you're going to be like, I got to get to Rhode Island right now. No, that's really well said, Sarah. I feel like we maybe don't think about romance as like a psychological work and thinking about the way we think about people.

45:23We think of it as obviously Fabio and that cliche. And like we think about the sexual relations, but there's like it's like emotional connection and humanity of it all. And part of that is because love is so ubiquitous, right? Like we use it to sell like mouthwash and cookbooks and, you know, car insurance and, you know, also each other. Yeah. But and that's that's because it is everywhere. And we can all if I say love to you, even if you aren't in a relationship right now, you can envision what love is. You've seen it in a thousand different ways all across the world. And it feels throughout your life.

46:03And so it feels often like, well, it's so ubiquitous that do we actually need books about it? And I think in this day and age, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, with people being more online and not having interaction in the physical sense, offering a gateway drug. Yeah. Going out in the world and doing, you know, going to that farm for the weekend and meeting that person. Sorry, I'm using Hallmark language here, but you know what I'm saying. But it's also really transformative, right? Like love is what drives us to act in the world. Like love brings us to a place where we have stakes, where we think to ourselves like we are going to we're going to take action.

46:45We're going we're going to fight. We're going to to thrive. Those kinds of choices are often born of feeling love and not again, not just love in a romantic sense, but love across, you know, across all things. And so it feels very much to me like what romance is saying and what love sort of drives us to do is transformative and subversive and revolutionary. Yeah. In a lot of ways, like food. No, great segue. I feel like I want to have a million questions about food in romance. But you've written most of your books. These Summer Storms is your recent book, and that's in contemporary times. And most of them are in the historical setting in the past.

47:29Sarah, how do you think about using food in your work as a device, as just scene setting? And really, have you evolved over your 20 books in the way food plays a role with this increase in interest in food? Yeah. Well, I think food is really fascinating because – so, yes, my first 19 books were all historicals. But all of my books, including this one, are really about power, right? Relationships are about power. And the move through a relationship is about equity, right? And so often in historicals, power lends itself to thoughts about class, right, about money and family and society and culture.

48:23and all in and I think historically and now right food is so deeply embedded in class that when I'm writing a scene or building a world or establishing kind of the home life say of a character food becomes shorthand in a lot of ways for what does this character how what is zero state for this character? What is normal? What does food look like to them? You know, if I'm writing an incredibly wealthy person, that food is going to look different than if I'm writing somebody who, you know, grew up in the, you know, in a poor neighborhood in London in the late 19th century. Wow. So your research about these eras, I mean, when you're doing historical fiction, it must be pretty deep.

49:17I mean, give us some examples of how food has played a role in different worlds that you've built in these different iconic time periods. Yeah. So I wrote a book. My most recent historical book is called Knockout. And the hero of that book is the heroine is an aristocratic woman, like born into wealth and privilege in London in the 1840s. And the hero is a Scotland Yard detective who grew up on the streets in East London. His father died when he was very young, so he had to get a job very early. We're talking about the early 1800s. There is no school. There is no safety net. Luckily, he had a mother who cared very much for him.

50:02You know, there were he had a home life. And one of my favorite scenes in that book is this very wealthy kind of moneyed woman who comes from just rarefied air. Right. And when we're talking about England, we're talking about like class looks real different in England than it does in America. So does like the air quality. I can't imagine. I think about London in the 1890s. Oh, yeah. Gross. Yeah. Not not great. No. Not a great time for like lung health. Air as thick as like soup and people literally, this is a fun fact that's not about food, but in the early 1800s in London, the soot hung so heavy, like the air was so polluted that people would actually fall into the river because they couldn't see.

50:46They would just walk right, they would walk right off the edge and fall into the river and die. The River Thames has like a massive tide. Like that was it. If you fell in, no one was saving you. Wow. Anyway, back to food. You must have had a good death. Listen, I could talk about. Yeah. Good deaths. Yeah. That's a different podcast. Good historical fiction deaths. But one of my favorite scenes is in this book, they sort of end up in his childhood home. His mother is there. It's in a flat sort of walk up flat in East London. And she the heroine walks into the room and she can smell like lamb stew hanging in a pot over fire.

51:28Right. Which feels really primitive in a lot of ways. And like she can there's like fresh bread that was made that morning by his mother. And like the family is seated on like benches around a table and like they tear, you know, they tear the bread open and like and they, you know, are eating out of these bowls, these like chipped bowls. this like hearty, warm suit. And that might be the only cooked meal that they've had that day, right? Like full meal. But it feels, you know, the table, they have to move furniture out of the way to like sit, to make space for food. And choose, I feel, for me, it feels like mealtime is so indicative of what a character is, right?

52:16Like my new book is about, a very, very, very wealthy, privileged New England family, right? And their meals are much more precise. Like there's a scene where there are canapes and like every canapé is like perfectly, there's no tearing bread, there's no hearty stew. This is, everything is lean and spare because it's all decadent, right? It's. Yeah. I mean, Jodi Pico writes, this twisty succession meets clue novel is deliciously impossible to put down. I mean, I'm getting succession vibes from what you're saying. It's set on an island off of Rhode Island. I mean, is there quiet luxury happening in these characters?

53:05Yeah, I mean, it's not quiet. It's just luxurious. I mean, the premise of this book is there's a billionaire attack. Their father, it's a dysfunctional family. their billionaire father who basically invented the cell phone dies in like a freak billionaire accident and all the children are summoned home in the week after his death to their private island the family's private island and he's left them an inheritance game so the question is who will inherit the billions oh it's actually a game a competition it's yeah they each have a task that they have to complete. That's fun. What's the, what's the, give me a food scene.

53:46Give me something the way that you wrote food into this succession like narrative. Well, interestingly, so the, the main character of this book is, uh, an exiled daughter. She hasn't been home for five years. We don't know why, but it's clear that she's been pushed out of the family by the father and she comes home and she goes into her, the fam, the family pantry, like it's morning and she goes into the pantry to get, uh, to get coffee beans, right? Her father was obsessed with Dunkin' Donuts, New England. Yeah, totally. And so she goes in to get coffee beans in the pantry. And in there, she has this moment.

54:21And this is a woman who has convinced herself over five years that she does not need this man. Her father has never been good to her. And she certainly shouldn't be grieving him. And she walks into this pantry and she sees a bag of red licorice and a jar of hard pretzels. like Rhode Island hard pretzels and this Dunkin' Donuts bag. And it's like the scars of this man, like his, the things that he cared about. And it's food. Of course it's food, right? Because I grew up this way. Like my relationship with my father was like a lot about food. I'm sure we'll talk about that. But the, so it's not a scene where they eat, but it's a scene where food evokes.

55:11And it's the first moment where she has a kind thought about him. Oh, wow. Where she thinks like, I miss him. Wow. Even though there's like these scars that are clearly there. And it's because she can remember like reaching into that pretzel tin, you know. She remembers going to the farm stand on the farm coast of Rhode Island to buy a particular kind of tomato sauce from like a farmer's market. I have to say black licorice is absolutely psychotic. Like psychotic. I mean, why does this food exist? People either love it or hate it. I agree with you. I think it's really weird. It's a weird—I mean, I like anise.

55:50I like bitter, I like fennel. I like, you know, pastiche flavors. Yeah. So I'm not against the flavor. But like industrial black licorice is like the worst version of it. And it usually comes in like—it's like big chunks of it. Yeah. It's so much of it. It's not a Twizzler. It's not like elegant. Oh, yo. Red licorice Twizzlers. Listen. That's my— Twizzlers are elegant. I ride with that. Well, let's stick with Rhode Island because I really want to know. First off, I've never really spent time there. I know it's a lovely place to visit. You're shaking your head, but I'm just going to say. No, it is a lovely place.

56:27I know I shook my head because a lot of, I mean, who goes to Rhode Island? Nobody. It's tiny. It's a small place. Taylor Swift and no one else. Wait, Taylor Swift goes there? Taylor Swift has the country house area. Oh, wow. I didn't know that. Wow, that's a good fun fact. I mean, is there a pizza style in Rhode Island? Oh, yeah. Have you done your research? No, I haven't because I wanted to talk to an expert. Okay. So in Rhode Island, we have what's called Red Strips. Oh, right on. Tell me about it. Is that my list? Everyone, I made a list on the subway this morning coming into the studio of all the weird Rhode Island food I could talk to you about.

57:05I am so excited. Just like off the top of my head, and it is extensive. We're going to go over that list, but let's just stick with pizza. Let's stick with, yes. Just to start, but then we're going to go into the list. The red strip, which is basically focaccia and tomato sauce. Okay. Like, there's no cheese. Austere, wow. And it's in about, it's maybe an 8 to 10 inch long rectangle. It's like 8 by, say, 3. Yeah. and they're in like every bakery so cool and they're kind of gross i mean like focaccia on the industrial side can be extremely weird and gross i mean like there what i will say is i i'm sure you know what it is it's the red sauce of it all like it's how listen rhode island is deep and it is inspired by there is a lot of like for a tiny little state there's so many different cultures that just smash together.

58:05And one of the things we are best known for is the mob. Yeah. Like, we basically, we still blame that ourselves. It's a breeding ground. Yeah, I mean, basically everyone's in the mob. It's fine. Yeah. And so the red sauce of it all is there, and basically a pizza strip or a red strip. With this, like, kind of industrial sauce that's been, like, baked into the top of it. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure at some point it was, like, Nona's sauce. Yeah, but no, at the industrial level. I mean, already people are going to send me letters. Well, let's get more letters because let's go to that list because I think the prompt was weird foods from Rhode Island.

58:40Let's just go down the list. Yeah. So your producer, Clayton, said somebody once told me about milkshakes from Rhode Island. And this is the thing that really – I married a Californian and he is very confused by New England altogether. Because if you know anything – where are you from? I'm from West Michigan. Okay. Which has its own – So you also have, yes, well, there are things in West Michigan also. I mean, there are things. What is the thing? Wow. Thank you for turning back on the mic. This is a good podcast, you know, hosting the host. I mean, like, briefly, we, Agricultural Center, there's a great apple community there, apple growing grapes as well.

59:22But I think for West Michigan, we're known for Bell's beer. Okay. So, like, we have a really good craft beer scene. Okay. That's what I would say. All right. Yeah, we don't have that in Rhode Island. There's no beer. There's a mob control of the beer. Probably. Yeah. Yeah, it's all, what is it, Peroni? Yeah, Peronis. Yeah, lots of Peronis being cracked up in Rhode Island. No. So if you are a New Englander, the New Englanders out there will appreciate this, or if you know anything about New England, you know that we are a group of six states. I'm making that up. It feels that way. It feels like six.

59:58Yeah. Six states and every single state is just so proud of being different than everywhere else. But you can drive through all six states in about three hours, like a circle. So people from outside of New England don't really understand the like deep New England pride that comes from being like, no, I'm not from Massachusetts, despite the fact that I grew up 10 minutes from the Massachusetts border. I'm from Rhode Island. You know, there's a very, you know, we're small but fierce. Yeah, no, I get it. And so the thing about Rhode Island, though, is it feels like we also just like are so small that we had we felt we had to be so fierce.

1:00:34And we've really we're very extra there. So we don't call milkshakes milkshakes. We call them cabinets. What the fuck? That's crazy. Cabinets? Cabinets, like the furniture. Yeah, right. And I did make this list on the subway and I did not look this up. So let's just go off. This is off your point of view. No, this is, well, I mean, the cabinet thing is fact. Yeah, yeah. But as I understand it, or at some point somebody told me that this was because at some point, like, the refrigerated, like, the ice or something was kept inside. Makes sense, yeah. A cabinet. Yeah. And so they would call these, like, this particular kind of shake, you know.

1:01:14Fully makes sense. A weird kind of, like, roundabout way to get to the name, but it makes sense. Yeah, so you'd be like, get me a cabinet, right? So the – but what's interesting about Rhode Island is we also are the home state and the inventor of coffee syrup slash coffee milk. Yeah, coffee milk. So you can get a coffee cabinet in Rhode Island and you can't get that anywhere else. No. That's an us thing. Sarah, can I ask you to like break into a little bit of Rhode Island accent? Clearly your podcasting voice has broken accent. Well, we haven't gotten to lobster. Okay, let's go there. All right.

1:01:50Chowda, lobster, you know, we'll get there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you get a coffee cabinet, and then you can get a hot wiener all the way. Okay. Which is our hot dog. But it's in New York. So they're called New York. What are they called? Like New York hot wieners? But you can only get them in Rhode Island. Pause. I had to do the internet thing right there. There's been like six of them, and I've been like fighting it back. Anyways, the New York hot wiener. It's a New York hot, New York, New York, it's not style. It's like New York hot wiener. And the wiener. Wiener, there you go. New York hot wiener, and you get them all the way.

1:02:31And these are made, they are not beef. They are made with veal and pork. Okay. And like spice. This is like, this comes from like Portuguese influence. There's a big Portuguese community in Rhode Island. And they're covered in raw onions, like not pickled or like cooked. They're just fucking onions. Yeah, the white onions. Sorry, can I swear on the penguin random house? Fucking onions, yeah. Just like onions. Yeah. And some kind, what an untrained eye would refer to as probably chili. Chili-like product. Yeah, it's like meat sauce. Okay, meat sauce, sure. And you get them and they're on like a sweeter, like the bun is sweet.

1:03:19Sounds really good. And steamed, I think. Oh, yeah, totally. Sounds great. I would crush one of those. You gotta go. There's a place in Olneyville. There's a city called Olneyville. Here's the other thing about Rhode Island. Everybody knows the guy who like there's a guy in Olneyville. And you can go there and you get hot dogs all the way. Hot wieners all the way. Sounds extremely good to me. I'll crush one of those. So we have, and like, literally we are, you can run, you can drive, you cannot drive 45 minutes in Rhode Island. There's no way to do that. Amazing. But we have all this food. Many of our listeners have not been there, so this is good facts.

1:03:59We also have our own clam chowder. Oh, tell me about it. This is, New England clam chowder is shit, everybody. I said it. Manhattan clam chowder, there should be no tomato in your chowder. That's an odd one for me. Is it shit because there's just too many bad potatoes? It's so creamy. Oh, the cream. Why is there so much cream? I don't need fish cream, soup, hot fish cream. Hot fish cream. Sounds great. No, it definitely sounds like something from your 1820s writing. Oh, no. I am like a fighter when it comes to chowder, which really disturbed, again, my Californian husband when he discovered this.

1:04:33He was like, why are you so serious about chowder? So what's Rhode Island's chowder? It's in a broth. Like, it's fucking civilized. Umbroto. Very nice. Yeah, civilized. So it's in a fish broth. It's really lovely. And it's got all the stuff. Clams, potatoes, maybe a little bit of corn if that's your thing. I don't know. But cleaner broth. I wouldn't say clean. It's a little messy. Sometimes there's sand in there. Like a little crunch. Yeah, a little extra terroir. But you got to go to George's of Galilee. There's a town called Galilee. And it's by Newport Second Beach. Okay. And you go there and you get clam cakes and chowda.

1:05:14And clam cakes are also a thing that nobody has outside of Rhode Island. Yeah, you think of the strips, you think about steamers, but no clam cakes. No, it's like a fried dough ball and it's got clam in it. Yeah, the clam culture. And they make it with clams, like clam juice. Sounds amazing. Listen, that is it. That's the business. Clams are hitting, man. When they're fresh and you can steam them and fry them. Oh, my gosh. And then in Rhode Island, we also have something called a quahog. But it's a giant clam. It looks like it's like this big. You've probably seen, you know, seen pictures. Are they good?

1:05:51I don't think of big bivalves as being my jam. Like when they're bigger, the... Well, now you're speaking to a Rhode Islander. So obviously, they are the best of the bivalves. Obviously. Fuck off, Matt. The giant bivalves work. But what I would say is no, not on their own. I wouldn't steam one open. I wouldn't cut one open and eat it raw like an oyster. Okay. I would say that, no, what you do is you cut them open, you pull out the thing. Yeah. The animal. Yeah, the animal. And then you mix it with breadcrumbs and a little bit of sausage and some hot sauce. And then you put it back into the shell and bake it.

1:06:29Yeah, definitely. And you get a stuffy. A stuffy. That sounds incredible. Listen. Yeah. Rhode Island knows the business. This is an amazing food ways. I mean, listen, I know you're having fun here, but this is some good stuff here. Where's my Rhode Island cookbook? I mean, somebody's – I haven't seen one across my desk. Somebody's got – there's got to be one. Yeah. You're still looking at the list. I know. There's such a – there's so much to talk about. All right. Do you want to do beverage or do you want to do dessert? Let's do both. Beverage and dessert. I can't not – Okay. So in Rhode Island, we have – well, we talked about coffee milk, but we also have something called Dell's Lemonade.

1:07:05Oh, cool. And Dell's is like it comes from the Italians, the Italian ice world. And what they do is they take a whole lemon and they grind it up and then mix it with like shaved ice and syrup. And you get it. It's like the greatest snowball you've ever had because it's just pure lemon in there. Yeah. And there are like bits of lemon rind. But if you get the simple syrup or the sugar element correct and the balance straight and after doing that 150 ,000 times, they got it down. Yeah. Nothing is better than a fresh lemon dessert. It's like in New York, we have Mr. Softy. Yeah. Like in Rhode Island, you have the Dell's truck goes around.

1:07:48The Dell's truck. And it's basically in a cup. It comes in a cup, a paper cup that's like a Dixie cup and will definitely disintegrate before you get to the end of it. That's part of the charm. and when I was a kid they also had cherry which some people feel like this is not a real Dell's but like for a kid getting a mouthful of lemon rind is not the same as when you're an adult and you're like oh I like it can you go 50-50? half and half? I never did half cherry half lemon? you could be wild I guess get crazy let's get crazy go half and half that's what I would do well now you know when you get to Rhode Island we'll go to Dell's so was that the beverage or dessert?

1:08:24that was the dessert that was the beverage that was the bev excuse me We know Rhode Island summers. That shit's a beverage. It's liquid at the end. In the end, you get the last sip. And then the dessert is the Doughboy. Oh. Which is like a fried. It's like, I would say it's like a funnel cake. Yes. But it doesn't have, you know, funnel cakes, they like squirt the batter in the oil and they make it attractive. A Doughboy is like a flat. It's free-flowing. We called them in the Midwest. We called them elephant ears. Yeah. I've never seen one of those, but I'm sure it's the same. They're the same thing.

1:09:03They're at county fairs. With cinnamon and sugar on top. Absolutely. And they're like in a weird, there's no like shape to them. A perfect like summer fair like treat. Yeah. I love that you remember. I've seen them in called fat balls in like Wisconsin. Yeah. Like elephant ears. These all are the same. Doughboys on the East Coast. They're in like dirty oil. I don't know what's going on in there. Yeah, that oil's been there since like the 90s. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. And that's where you get the flavor. I know. You want a little dirty oil. Wow, what a great tour. So everybody go to Rhode Island and lobster rolls look a little different in Rhode Island.

1:09:39We don't do that mayonnaise thing. Yeah, that's true. And I like that. I like when it's a little bit, you can taste the lobster. It's warm instead of cold. Oh, yeah, that's right. Oh, that's different. There's a whole. What's the bun choice? Is it like a hot dog split? Like a hot dog. Like a sweet, like, again, that sort of like sweeter hot dog bun. Yeah. I love this. I mean, it's clear that you've done your research and— You mean by living there? By living there. But like, you know, you're curious by living there. But you look, you know, you're curious. Some people probably from around don't think about food in that way.

1:10:15But when you're thinking about your writing and tell me, how do you research your characters? It could be for food or in general. Because I think when you're talking about historical, you really got to get those details right. And there's like definitely pressure on you to do that. Yeah. I think that – so I think you're right. You have to be an innately curious person I think to be a writer. I don't know that it's any different for historical than it is for contemporary writers. But for me it feels – I mean I really love the world. and, you know, I think most novelists can spend a day literally anywhere and come up with a way that that experience or that relationship or those feelings, you know, get packed into a book.

1:10:57Research for me in the historicals is very much about, like, going to the places. You know, like, the great thing is I write in London largely and – or I don't – I write in New York, but I write about London. But you write in – that's the location you've dealt with. I'm largely right about the early 1800s in London. And the cool thing about London is it's still all there. Yeah, totally. So, you know, I can literally stand on the cobblestone street in the neighborhood I'm writing in and think, like, well, how would this look? What would this be? Like, you know, you make a lot of friends with librarians and you read a lot of books.

1:11:35The cool thing is when you get to be this far into your career, I also have a lot of friends who are doing cool stuff. You know, my dear friend Joanna Shoup writes Gilded Age New York City and, you know, we'll share, you know, information. I'll be walking down the street in New York and I'll see something and go, oh, Joanna, you should put this in a book, you know, and similar experiences. You know, we all share with each other. So the community of writing historicals is really great. You guys share notes. But I'm also just a person who asks a lot of questions. I love that. That's what writing is about.

1:12:13And it's honestly how you should be in the world, I think. I think if we all asked more questions, we'd be in a much better place. Fully agree. What's your take on Downton Abbey? I wish they smash more. I know. I mean, frankly. No, it's a good call. It's such a great show, though. I feel like Edith, her romance was like really, really late in the series. I know. Speaking of the quote-unquote smashing, it seems like the show could have been a little That's an industry term. That's what they call it in the trade. In the trade, it's called that. My podcast co-host, Jen Prokop, is a middle school English teacher.

1:12:53And she says all the time that like one of the first lessons she teaches her kids in the sixth grade when she has a new class of students is like animals always mean something in text. Right. And I would say food always means something in media. So, like, I mean, obviously we're talking to a bunch of people who are really into food. So you probably all do this anyway. But if you don't, I would urge you to, like, think about food when you see it on screen. Like, we just finished Severance. Did you watch Severance? Yeah, sure. So there is this moment. Food in Severance is so fascinating because it's reward.

1:13:29But it's never, like, nobody gets a cake. They get, like, a melon party. Yeah. Like, what does it mean to get cantaloupe? It's so great because it switches the value structure of that innie world and it creates a new dimension where melon cake is being valued as if it would like a champagne toast. Yeah. And there's a retirement party in Severance where they like – somebody has sculpted a character's head out of watermelon. Yeah. And you're like, what does it mean that like then they're cutting – like there's something. Whenever we put food on the page or on the screen or in audio, like, think about what that means.

1:14:12Like, I'm watching My Daughter's Eleven and we've just introduced her to the Oceans movies. Oh, cool. And, like, Soderbergh is great, right? But that first, the Oceans Eleven, Rusty, Brad Pitt's character, is always eating. Yeah. In every single scene, he is always eating. And he's the only there's no food anywhere else. It's just Rusty always eating. And it's always like already in his mouth. Like there's no. And so my daughter sort of noticed this, like, why is he always eating? And I was like, I don't know why. Why might he always be eating? And like, I think there are just some really interesting.

1:14:52We don't put food on the table just because they have to eat. and if we are writing a scene where they are eating what they are eating is important fully agree and I think you spot it right away if you listen to the show you care about food so when they get the details wrong or they don't care about it and it's throw away yeah and what does it mean food is nourishment so what you are eating what they choose to be eating or how they are eating is like character development and I think in Korea like K-dramas do such a great job with that. Oh, tell me about that. They just have like really, obviously food is really important to Korean culture and it's at the center of life there.

1:15:35And, you know, the way that food is at the center of these plot lines, like in Attorney Wu, and like there's like a restaurant subplot there. And like just the fact that food is used for power structure and like the way that it's presented on screen is it's beautiful in some ways. It shows class, as you said. Early on, very important. Different foods in Korea mean different class things. Like there's meat. If it's a humble noodle dish, it means different things. There's a famous clip from a K-drama called the kimchi slap. And I highly recommend you and any listener, if you're here, if you're rolling with us this far, just Google the kimchi slap.

1:16:15It's incredible that at a pivotal moment, a character is slapped with a whole head of kimchi. and it's amazing. Oh my gosh. It's an amazing moment in K-drama, food history. Fully agree that food is really important in details. I have to close and ask you this question. It's a horrible question, but I'm going to ask you, what is the sexiest food? Not kimchi. I mean, kimchi can be quite sexy, but no, not kimchi. Not when you're getting slapped with a whole one. The sexiest food, you know, I think most food can be made sexy. I think it's more about, food is about experience, right? You could have the best meal of your life, but like you had it with a person you don't like or a place in a place you didn't care for and you wouldn't even remember it.

1:17:01Right. So for me, it feels like sexy is a state of mind. Into it. You dodged the question effectively. It's a terrible question. Sir McLean, thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thanks so much for having me.

1:17:19This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.