676: Michael W. Twitty Went Deep On American Southern Food

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0:31And I did not want a book based on the Confederate Southern identity. Because in the Confederate Southern identity, I am three-fifths of a human being. So bump that. I wanted to make sure people understood. There's this false division between Southern and soul. Not all soul is Southern, right? Yeah. And not all Southern is soul. This is Taste. I'm your host, Eliza Barbanel.

1:22It's a delight having Michael on the show to talk about bringing this book to life. And at the top of the show, it's the return of three things, where Eliza and I talk about what is exciting us in the world of restaurants, cookbooks, and the food world as a whole.

1:38Eliza, we are back with three things. How are you? I'm good, Matt. Do you want to go first? Yeah, definitely. I went to Ceres, finally, the pizza. I'll give a quick scene report. I went there. The caveat is I went there for a sweet green activation, So it wasn't like full service. I planned to go back and actually buy a full pie and enjoy the full speed Cirrus or series by Cirrus. I think that's right, Cirrus. I really like it. I really like it. I think that the flavor development in the dough is very, very obvious and clear. It's a darker pie than I was expecting. I saw some photos online, but I think that day they were even going darker.

2:17And I think that was a real strength to it. To remind folks, this is the pizzeria from 11 Madison Park. That's Julian Gelmacher and Jake Serbnik. And it's on Mott Street in Little Italy. And it's tiny, but I would say by all accounts, it's worth it to go there and try these pies. What I really liked about the pie as well is the structure. When you hold up the slice, it doesn't really sag. It really holds up. And it's really that beautiful, thin, thin, ultra thin crust. that has structure and crunch. Very hard to do. We've all had pizza. We all know the floppy pizzas that you can get that are great, but this is not one of them.

2:58And I loved it. I can't wait to go back. I think the closest connection is Joe's on Bleeker to me, just as like that inspiration is clearly there. But I liked it. What's your first thing? Well, my first thing is that I went to Long Island Bar, which is a place I go to a lot, but I had something there that I'd never ordered before, which was the fried cheese curds. Oh. Have you had those? Not there. I have a long history with fried cheese curds in my day. So you're a cheese curd expert, I would say, despite our lengthy time that we spent in Wisconsin together. I'm not necessarily super into cheese curds.

3:32But these cheese curds that I had were incredible. I think they were the best cheese curds I've ever had. They were super light and, like, not too heavy. And they had a little bit of kind of goo because of the fry. But it wasn't too, like, mozzarella-stick level of lava. It was just kind of the perfect cheese curd. And I think a lot of people go to Long Island Bar and just get a burger and fries, which I understand. But I just needed to spread the gospel a little bit. Love that. Was there any dipping sauce included? Yeah, they do have like a ranch-like dipping sauce, I think, to dip it in. Yeah.

4:04It was good. That's a great choice. Yeah. I like a cheese curd that is like fried a la minute and doesn't have too much batter. And it sounds like that's being achieved here. Yeah, it was the platonic ideal of a cheese curd, in my opinion. Very cool. What's your next thing? My next thing is I want to shout out a coffee roaster in West Michigan called Madcap Coffee. I made a friend on a recent taste travels and this friend sent me a couple bags. Thank you so much. That was really kind of you. And it's a reminder that this is one of our country's finest roasters. I love what they're doing. As a reminder, they're headquartered in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

4:40They have cafes in Grand Rapids and Detroit and up north in Leland. and they have been operating the roastery since 2008. So it has a long history. And it's really, I think on the national coffee scene, it might not get as much attention. It could be because it's in West Michigan and not LA or New York, et cetera. But the coffees I tried, and I tried two of them are spectacular. One is from Yeni Reynoso at Finca Vista Hermosa. It's a Colombian geisha and it uses honey processing and it's really drinks, really, really, the roasting is everything and it's very light. So we're tasting the agriculture in the best way.

5:21And the other coffee was Elirio Munoz Ortega and that was a washed coffee that was a more straightforward Colombian that I love that those types of coffees, those washed Colombian coffees are some of my favorites. And when they're handled with care as they are at Madcap, highly recommend it. Both are available online. I'm linking to the store in the show notes. And I just love Metcap. Yeah, that sounds great. I will keep in the beverage direction for my next thing, which is I had some tea that I really enjoyed from a new tea brand here in Brooklyn called Razzie Tea. I first started trying their tea because Arjun, who's the founder, started selling chai kind of outside the Fort Greene Farmers Market.

6:03Hot and cold over the summer. Super delicious. and I just love someone who wants to set up on the sidewalk, really like talk with people, get live feedback about what they're doing. They have an Indian breakfast blend, which is not a spice chai, just an English breakfast style blend. He's kind of trying to reclaim that name, although I think it's been a little bit of a marketing problem because people read Indian breakfast blend and assume that it is chai, but it is just this beautiful blend of awesome tea, darjeeling and Ceylon tea from Sri Lanka. So it does make a very good chai, as I can attest based on the chai that Arjuna is making at the market.

6:38But I just made some at home, like just drink it black, delicious. What's your tea setup at home? I've never asked you. I just have like a gooseneck kettle and so many teas, like more teas than anyone should have. I believe the teas are labeled tea, tea continued, and then tea part three because I have three different boxes of it. I love that. But I definitely am like a winter tea. I think in the summer I'll make iced tea occasionally, like a barley tea or something like that. But in the winter, I'm always a little cold. So I'm just kind of constantly drinking different teas. Another just tea-related thing that I want to do is I was having dinner with Ham and Sola al-Waley, and I was having this really good rice that Ham had made that tasted almost like a barley or like a, you know, mixed grain rice.

7:24But it was just white rice. And when I asked him about it, he said that he had leftover barley tea, cold barley tea, that he just used as the basis to make the rice, which made total sense, but it's not something that I've done before. So that's my next kind of tea-related. Keep the extra tea. Yeah, make rice with your extra tea. Yeah, wonderful. I have a lot of corn tea that I like to drink, like the Korean corn tea, and I feel like it would be really delicious to make rice with the corn tea. Yeah, the tea sometimes is poured over the stone bowls in Korea, and it's blended together at the final moments of a meal.

7:55Yeah, I mean, you can do like that kind of steeped rice tea thing, or you could just mix the dry rice with the tea. And cook it with it. And cook it, which is mostly what I want to do. But maybe I'll try both. No, I like cooking with tea. That's really smart. I love that. What's your last thing? My last thing is my friend, the chef Marijuana, Ronnie, runs this terrific spice company, Spicewala. You may have seen it. It's kind of everywhere. Congrats on those guys. They just launched an olive oil, which I think is a really cool evolution for Spicewala. And I really like this olive oil. And for the record, it is not available in a squeeze bottle.

8:32It is zagging where everyone is zigged. It is in a wonderful 17-ounce tin, a beautiful vessel to have on your counter. This olive oil is from Umbria, and it's very flavorful. I would call it, you can definitely cook with it, but I would hold it back for vinaigrettes or drizzling on vegetables. That's definitely the way I would do it. I actually did cook with it recently, and I did some dill mashed potatoes with it, which I love, just boiling potatoes, throwing in a lot of dill, and then adding great olive oil and salt and pepper. And it was a terrific use for that. So that is the Spicewala Extra Virgin Olive Oil, really terrific product.

9:14I love the sound of dill mashed potatoes, too. So good. What's your last thing? My last thing is that there is a new location of Big Night on the Upper East Side. Yeah, saw that. I don't know if you've heard about this expansion. I've heard about it. It's cool. It's, I think, really interesting to watch Big Night. If people aren't familiar with the store or haven't listened to the episode that I did with Catherine Lewin when they had their book come out, this is a kind of entertaining-focused store. Their first location is in Greenpoint. They have one in the West Village. And now they're kind of moving uptown as well.

9:43And they offer this really cool blend of like home goods, tabletop stuff, some like pantry essentials as well. And every store is kind of laid out differently. But the one on the Upper East Side is very much like a shoppable apartment kind of experience. There's a kitchen with a kitchen section, this built-in glassware bar, a dining room and a pantry. And they have their own mix of like their own house product line that I think they're expanding. Kind of signature brands like Sabra, who's tortoise shell. So flatware is always something I covet if anyone is listening and wants to get me a birthday gift coming up.

10:17Sophie Lou Jacobson glassware. Lots of other things. I've mentioned on the show recently my love of the tiny dollhouse store. It is very close to what I believe is the new Big Night location. So if people wanted to go get like tiny versions of the big things that they're getting, that could be fun. I love Big Night. I go every year to the West Village location around the holidays for shopping. And I'll definitely buy their pasta candles. I typically buy a couple of those. The pasta candles that are shaped like a... Shaped like pastas. Yes. Terrific gift. And I love that these experiences are like walking through a home.

10:55It's really, really cool. Yeah, I think you're right. It's so good for gifting, especially if you're buying something for somebody who, you know, kind of has what they need or has like a specific point of view, like guaranteed to find something that feels like it would be at home in their home. Speaking of your birthday, what's the birthday plan? Well. Because you asked. My birthday is three days after my girlfriend Shirley's birthday. So we are combining our birthdays this year and throwing a big birthday party for all of our friends just so that people don't have to, you know, go super hard back to back.

11:30Yeah. We are hiring a magician for the birthday party. Wonderful. Because I think magicians are like a new kind of trendy thing to have at parties. I think like there's something about this moment in time where AI, generative AI is so prominent. Like we're seeing things all the time that we're not really sure if they're real or not. I think there's something really cool about seeing something that you know is fake but that you can't catch it and that it's happening in real life. And we were at a party and we saw this magician who was doing sleight of hand card tricks and just thought she was so cool and wanted to see our friends like lose their mind over these card tricks.

12:02I love card tricks. So this is not an open to the public event. But if you are a— No link in show notes. No link in show notes. But if you are a good friend, then hopefully I'll see you there. And maybe we'll get some footage of the sleight of hand to go on my Instagram at some point. Well, happy early birthday, Eliza. Thank you. Have fun. Happy Scorpio season to us all, almost. Thanks for sharing your three things. Yeah, you too.

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13:53Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. From February 20th to March 7th, dive into Canada's biggest culinary festival, Montreal en Lumière, an exclusive partnership with the McCord Stewart Museum and its exhibition, On the Menu Montreal, a restaurant story. The 2026 festival invites food lovers on a flavorful journey through time. Montreal's top restaurateurs will reimagine 65 years of the city's iconic astronomy, crafting inventive, nostalgia-inspired dishes with a modern twist. Prepare your palate. World-renowned chefs, including several Michelin-starred talents, will team up with over 80 of Montreal's finest local chefs to create unforgettable, one-of-a-kind menus.

14:39The full program is available at MontrealOnLumiere.com Presented by Lotto Quebec in collaboration with National Bank. Hi there, it's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on three things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible.

15:16That's the This Is Taste listener survey. Link in our show notes. Michael W. Twitty, This Is Taste. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Well, thank you so much. I'm glad to be here. I'm really excited to have you in the studio. I've been a fan of your books for a while, especially this new one. And before we get into that, I often ask my guests to share an early food memory from growing up. When reading this book, Recipes from the American South, it seems like you had a lot of early food memories that were maybe at play, but I'm wondering if there's one that you'd want to share.

15:49Chitlins, otherwise known as the small intestine of the pig. Two people in my house ate them, three people actually. My father, my uncle, and my grandfather and my grandmother would prepare them. And they were park chitlins, which came in a plastic container. And they were disgusting. They looked disgusting. And I'm not kidding you that on at least three occasions, my mother took me to the National Zoo. and the joke was that the National Zoo had a better fragrance than our home when my grandmother made. My grandmother couldn't stand them, and that's because my grandmother, less because of what they were, more because when they had hog killing time, it was the young girl's job to squeeze them out of any remaining fecal matter.

16:42So, yeah, that left an indelible impression in my mind the rest of my life. What was the impression besides the fact that you didn't like them? I think it was my first step towards Judaism. But they were really, oh, they looked gross. They smelled gross. And the smell of the house, no matter what you put on them or in them, I think it was combination of the vinegar, the onion, and no matter how much you clean them, they would just never clean it off. Yeah. I think a lot of people listening would be like, poor contestant, how is that your first step towards Judaism? I mean, I half joke, but it was really just like, because, I mean, Chitlins are like informally a very strong signifier of the black Southern heritage.

17:32Because it's about survival and joy and making the best out of what you have and being attached to the land. Yeah. And I've found other ways to do that outside of chitlins, which you can obviously do. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's right. And I feel like there are so many, you know, chopped liver, gefilte fish, a lot of Jewish staple foods that I grew up with that I didn't like, but my family ate. And I remember, like, I don't know if you ever did this with chitlins, but really trying to be like, I'm going to keep eating chopped liver until I like it because, like, everyone else around me is doing it.

18:09And, like, I feel like that's the way I have to do it. But I honestly still don't really like it. Have you ever had pichah? No. What is that? Pichah is, it goes by a couple other names in Yiddish. But pichah was the, if people still make it, it's calves foot jelly. Oh. Okay. And the only thing that makes it any better, and I've only had a little tiny, you know, as much garlic as you can throw at it. Yeah, that's how that works. I feel like garlic does right by a lot of things. It does. It's an angel. So this book, Recipes from the American South, is your fourth book. But to me, it seems like there are threads of it that have appeared in other projects you've worked on.

18:54I'm curious when you began kind of developing the idea for this book in earnest. So Emily Takutis, editor at Fiden, reached out to me to find an author, preferably a young author, preferably somebody who wasn't, you know, off the shelf type for these books, preferably someone who was starting out. And frankly, I was like, OK, well, I'll look around. I did. Nobody wanted to do it. Then I said, well, let me find a partner so I can write with. That was difficult. And then eventually nobody wants to do it. And then she was like, you know what? Hold on. I got Michael Twitting in front of me. Obviously, you can do this.

19:34So why not try? And I said, OK. And then I thought about like my life experience. You know, you obviously were ever seeing the cooking gene, rice, which is part of the Southern cookbook series that UNC Press did, Savoring the South, and then Kosher Soul, all of which have elements of Southern history, Southern food, and, you know, the basic pieces. and at that point I didn't really understand my own self-worth in this and I was like oh right I've been to Europe several times I've sought out the parts of you know British food French food Germanic food that came to the south I've been to West Africa now eight times I've read all these books my entire life.

20:24I mean, it's not usual that five, six, seven-year-old kids are watching cooking shows on PBS. And then it becomes 10, 12, 13, 14. And then somewhere around, you switch over to the Food Network and read the books, did the work, interviewed all four of my grandparents as I was growing up. And then some of the discomfort towards the legend of the cooking gene was me and my former partner, Jacob, me, rest in peace, traveling, you know, the entire breadth of the South. So at what point between the Vietnamese gardeners in New Orleans and the Mennonite sorghum farmers and all the people in between, did I not have the chops to do this?

21:07And that's something, I mean, I guess for someone who's still relatively younger, and I still look good for 48. Thank you so much. It's hard to see yourself because you've seen people who are twice, three times your age do the work, but they have money and they have experiences. But wait a minute, I was like, wait a minute, you are organically prepared for this. This doesn't come from a class, come from a school, doesn't come from someone blessing you or making you. You did this because you wanted to. Now write this book. It's your thesis. It really is. It's like an encyclopedia. It has so much breadth in terms of what you're covering and the kinds of recipes and the families and the stories.

21:50And you write a little bit about how the American South isn't a culinary monolith. I'm curious what you would say the key influences are and how you went about trying to both highlight these threads and then also see how they become woven together. I wanted to make sure The first thing was to write down the recipes that I wanted to do, to list them out. That's all. I'm ashamed to say I forgot fried okra, but that's why God made kohl nidra. But yeah, I went through all the whole thing of like, okay, so I did include the chitlins and the pig feet, right? Also included possum and sweet potatoes, which I hope nobody ever makes.

22:32and I just kind of went through what are the dishes and the recipes that are essential. This book is written for English speakers that are global, particularly North America and Europe, right? So you have to kind of like think about what people have access to. I strongly disagree with some of the European editors' suggestions like Lyle's Golden Sirt for Sorkum Sirt. No, ma 'am. That's crazy. I'm sorry. Or calling the linguistic terms like black-eyed peas are always called black-eyed beans. In the book, you say black-eyed beans, also known as black-eyed peas. I'd never heard of the beans before.

23:15Yeah, that's how they do over there. So it was done to be an international book. I'm like, ugh. But, I mean, going through, I want to make sure that all the indigenous African, West Central African, Western, Northern European cultures were there, but also Asian cultures in the South. A little bit, since I did so much for Kosher Soul, I didn't do Coca-Cola brisket because unless you actually spell out why, it's Jewish Southern. Now, matzah ball gumbo could have been one. I could have, but that was a little. Those of you who've done cookbooks, you understand this. Cookbooks aren't, oh, I have a fun recipe.

23:55I'm just going to jot it down. Then somebody will publish it. Nah, they got it tested. They got to make sure it's this and that. And by the way, by the time you get done with that book, it's still going to have missing pieces and mistakes. So I did Sephardic pink rice because I had red rice. And I noticed after a while I was doing a lot of that pairing, right? So pink rice, red rice, mock shoe from Louisiana, succotash from the eastern seaboard south. Okra soup, okra gumbo, you get it, and so on. So these foods that are quite similar, but read very differently to the people who know them intimately.

24:32So that was my big goal, was to make sure I had the culture, the breadth of cultures from Kurdish to Salvadoran to, you know, Chinese, Mississippi, Delta folks, to making sure that the recipe showed not just one version, but how different dishes morph across space and time. Yeah, I thought seeing that evolution was a really special part of it. I'm blanking on the name of the dish right now, but you have a beignet recipe and then you have it's a rice-based beignet. Yeah, kala. Yeah, I'd never heard of that before. Yeah, kala is from Louisiana. And so the word comes from wundabakala, which means in the southwestern part of Cameroon, which is the English-speaking part of Cameroon, it means beans of the Europeans, which is how they thought of Asian rice because their rice was red if they saw it through trade.

25:31And so kala also comes from the word akara, which more people know from Nigerian food. But it's not just Nigerian. It's all the cultures that lived in that area, the best speakers and the Yoruba speakers and et cetera. And so there are the cookbook that I initially researched many years ago said, oh yeah, on the streets of New Orleans, the people, the black women sell these rice fritters in the morning for breakfast. And you can also, it says you can also get ones made out of congri, which is black eyed peas. So that's very powerful because these are both fritters from a West African background where the name is preserved, like the word fevee in New Orleans means okra.