679: Hetty Lui McKinnon Has a Salad Superpower

26:31So a time old question, but like how do you keep your chickpeas crisp and crispy? And I feel like we're always trying to achieve that in the kitchen. Yeah. I mean, I think that – see, these ones don't – I mean, a little trick I did in my last book was I tossed them in chickpea flour. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that kind of adds that extra layer. Completely. Yeah. But these ones is like if you're going to toss it, just put them on the top and toss them at the end. But, you know, high temperature is always – and quite a bit of oil. yeah you gotta you can't be lax with oil or butter or just something to keep the crisp it does need it that's what the pros do in the restaurants and if you want it at home you gotta add some you gotta add the fat tell me about the falafel in spirit salad I love this idea the deconstructed falafel we love those flavors but sometimes you don't want to make the balls it's a little too much for some maybe too much carb and you've figured out a way to make it a salad I think that was exactly where I came from.

27:31I was thinking about the falafel, thinking about what a great, almost like a gyro roll, you know. All that freshness. You know, you've got these balls of fried balls, but then you've got the freshness of the vegetables in there and the tahini. And I was like, how can I turn that into a salad? But I didn't really want to be deep frying falafels. That's it. The deep frying step is really the barrier for a lot of folks. Yeah, it is. It's not very like weekday friendly either. So what I did was I made like a chickpea mixture and I added like all the herbs and the spices. And then I just whacked the whole thing in a fry pan or a skillet.

28:09You call them skillets here. I whacked the whole thing in a skillet and I just kind of fried it like a big patty. But it doesn't have to hold together. So when it's in the skillet, it's like a patty. You press it down so you get nice little burnt bits on there. and then you kind of flip it, like you kind of keep flipping it until you get lots of little burnt bits with non-burnt bits and then you just toss that with cucumbers and tomatoes and herbs with the tahini dressing and it really tastes like a falafel. That's exactly right. I mean, and when you eat a falafel, usually the last bites are kind of that format.

28:45It's like a little bit of falafel, a lot of vegetable. Yeah, it's very satisfying. Very cool idea and I think it's cool to not have to be married to like a structure where you can crumble it up and have that mixed with the veg. Yeah. Very smart. What's the vinaigrette on that one? It's just a tahini dressing. Oh, it's a tahini, right? It's tahini. That's smart. I like that. Back to cauliflower. Doing a cauliflower lab or larb is really, really fresh to me. I haven't seen that. And channeling Thailand and thinking about those flavors. How did you come to this recipe? Well, I've done a couple of larb recipes before.

29:19I've done a tofu larb. Yeah, I've seen that a lot. on the New York Times. And personally for myself, I do like a mushroom lab. But I thought, you know, I was thinking cauliflower that month. I mean, a lot of it's just like, what am I craving? I'm craving cauliflower. And I remember that particular recipe came about because I had these beautiful shiso leaves and perilla leaves that I'd picked up from the market. So I was like, I want to really use these in a recipe. So in the book, there's this beautiful platter laid out with lettuce and all these beautiful leaves and then a bowl of this cauliflower lob.

29:55And I love meals like that where you can put things together. I actually love things wrapped in lettuce. Me too. I think everything is better wrapped in a lettuce. It's amazing, especially if it's a central lob or some kind of dip or spread that is so strong. You can't have it on its own. Yeah. So you could have it with rice, but I actually love it with just the lettuce. Lettuce wraps and having shiso or perilla. Yeah, like these kind of fragrant leaves. I mean, I grew these leaves, actually. I had a community garden in Sydney. Oh, fun. And they're like weeds, so we just grew them. So for me, they're like very nostalgic kind of flavors.

30:34Speaking of New York Times, you contribute quite a bit for the publication. And, you know, you had a recipe. I would say it went viral in the best way. And it was very smart. It was a tomato dumpling salad. I want to first ask, what's it like writing for the New York Times and having and doing videos too? You do plenty of videos for the YouTube and really having your work really like there for judgment, for collaboration. Is it unnerving to you a bit? I don't read the comments much anymore. Very. Yeah. I made the mistake of doing that. My first recipe for them was something I was very proud of.

31:14It was a recipe called Suk Mei Fan, which translates to cream corn with rice. And it was a dish I grew up with. But obviously, I served it with silken tofu. And there was a lot of chatter about how this was not a Cantonese dish and they'd never seen it before. And it's like, well, food is very regional in China. And, you know, my mom grew up in different areas and lived in Hong Kong and all this stuff. So I thought from that moment when I read those comments, I was like, this is so crazy that people are telling me this is not a dish that I grew up with. So I learned to not read the comments. Every now and then I'll pop in just to see what people are going on about.

31:56But generally I try not to read it. And I say it to my other peers who are also contributors. Sometimes I see them and they're panicking about something someone has written. But I have full confidence in these recipes, Matt, because they're so well tested. There's a rigorous testing process with getting a recipe to print. So I know that my recipes are rock solid by the time they're published. And yeah, it's really cool to publish to such a wider audience. I mean, the work that I do at The Times is slightly different to the work that I do personally because it's, you know, obviously when I write for my newsletter or for my books, it's a little world that I enter into, but the Times is a bigger world.

32:43So, yeah, I mean, doing something like the dumpling salad, for example. I mean, that salad, that was not my first dumpling salad. There was one in my book, To Asia With Love. To me, I always saw that that dumpling salad is kind of the culinary personification of who I am. You know, as a Chinese person who somehow specializes in making salads. But to see that salad kind of take off and like become this other thing. And a lot of the time it wasn't even like people didn't even credit me for it. You know, like, you know, when this became like this viral dish on TikTok, nobody was crediting me or the New York Times.

33:22They were just, it was just their invention. I kind of took offense to it because it's like, that's my personal salad. Are you going to jump into the comments? Once in a while? Actually, a lot of friends did it and my kids did it. I love your kids. So my friends would see like these people in Europe cooking it and they'll be like, that's Hedy McKinnon's recipe. And I was like, oh yeah, okay. I don't personally, I mean. You're above that. Yeah. You float above that. The thing is that salad's been around for a few years now. Yeah. But it keeps having like every summer it has these new legs. Well, it's a beautiful salad.

33:55I mean, it's basically taking tomatoes and putting a really nice vinaigrette and then doing steamed dumplings. And the beauty of it is marrying the two and having the heat component of the steamed dumplings hit the tomatoes with the tossing of the dumplings. It does something. It does. And the vinaigrettes are chili crisp vinaigrette. Oh, that's right. And a lot of people have said, oh, they just use that on everything now. So I think that salad is basically showing anything can be a salad. It really is. Your thesis is strong. Yeah. And a lot of people come to that salad with a lot of skepticism.

34:28And they've told me, even friends have said, oh, I was really skeptical. But hey, my mom loved it. My Chinese mom loved it and things like that. So, I mean, you could eat that for lunch for a week. I mean, because you have like a big bag of frozen dumplings and tomatoes are everywhere, you know, for many months of the year, even in the wintertime. I did a winter version on my newsletter. How do you think about winter tomatoes in the Northeast? I kind of, I mean, there is an essay in the book that's about, is it a rebellion to eat tomatoes in the winter? I remember this. Yeah. Your essay writing is amazing, by the way.

35:04Thank you. I don't want to bury that. You're just natural. Natural writer. Thank you. Natural writer. Yeah. I have pretty strong views about kind of snobbery around how to eat vegetables. You know, like I grew up, my dad worked at the markets. That was what my last book was about. And so I grew up around wonderful vegetables all year round, very hyper-seasonal. But then when he passed away, I saw a different side of just going to your local store and picking up three cucumbers. And we'd never shopped that way in our house. So I think that accessibility is, if you have accessibility to, you know, green markets and fresh, hyper-seasonal vegetables, that's great.

35:52But not everybody does. And I don't think that should stop you from eating vegetables. So I'm like, if you really crave a tomato. So this is a question I'm also asked a lot in the winter. How do I keep winter eating exciting? And I'm like, bake some, you know, put some tomatoes in the oven. Yeah. supermarket tomatoes that are like past their prime, that they're not going to have a lot of flavor when you eat them fresh. But if you put those in a slow roast, them in an oven with some garlic and some herbs, it's going to be so beautiful. Your house is going to feel warm. You're going to have a beautiful aroma.

36:28And that's going to be a really lovely meal. Yeah, I love that sentiment. I think it's so true. We like to talk about it on the show a lot. Like, you know, we have a lot of strong opinions about food and we may be snobby about some things. But when it comes to accessibility to produce, it's important to not be a snob. And you're a leader in the industry. To say that is super important, that you don't have to have the perfect tomato to cook with it. Exactly. And I think that there's a lot of guilt around, like, where do you shop for your vegetables? And people don't always – like, we're in the food industry, so we're in a bubble.

37:00Yeah, we are. And we have access to – we know where to go. But there's a lot of people who don't know. And so they feel, like, guilty about where they're shopping. that's like, who cares? Go to your local supermarket. Go to Key Food and buy that tomato. Oh, damn. I shop at Key Foods all the time. Like, it's fine. Just buy the tomato. Go to your frozen, get frozen vegetables. Very much so. Peas are awesome. Frozen spinach. But just eat your vegetables. I mean, eat your vegetables. Last recipe I want to talk about is a cool one. And I can imagine it's pretty tricky to figure it out. The French onion soup salad.

37:32Because the French onion soup is so iconic. and to divorce it from the liquid form with the crown of Gruyere. And to think of it in salad form is almost contradictory, but you've done it. Yeah, I've done it a lot to many soups. Yeah, yeah. In my first book, I did a borscht salad. I've done it to potato and leek. And French onion was waiting for me. Yeah, French onion was waiting. Those are cool and I could see right away. But French onion, I was kind of like, whoa. What are you doing here? So what I wanted to do was actually put onions front and center in a salad. So I was thinking, this is a vegetable that everybody has and probably lots of in their pantry.

38:15And how can I center that as an ingredient? So I was thinking, French onion, you use a lot of it. I roast it at high temperature. And when it comes out, I put balsamic vinegar and soy sauce to almost deglaze the sheet pan. Yes. And then I add it to quinoa and have like arugula in there. And so there's lots of texture. It really, it's highly savory, that salad. Yeah. And, you know, maybe it doesn't have those. I kind of resisted the croutons. Well, you already have the quinoa there. So it would be a little bit much. Yeah. And, I mean, you don't really do a lot of bread salads either. I used to.

38:56Used to. But I'm also like a little bit gluten intolerant. Yeah. And something else I've discovered. So my food is incredibly friendly to people who might be gluten-free. Yeah, exactly. You know, I use soy sauce, but I actually in my daily life use tamari or gluten-free variety. And yeah, in my first book, there's lots of croutons. Yeah. But I've kind of steered away from the croutons now. It's fun to see that evolution for you as just your own eating habits, like kind of. Yeah. It's the flow of the book is like your story. Yeah. Basically, you can see the way my tastes have evolved from my first book to this one.

39:36But I think that should be always the way, right? People talk a lot about their first book being their best book. And my first book is this cult classic in Australia, so it was very hard to follow up almost. But I feel when people say, you know, what's your best book? And I was like, your latest book should always be your best book. 100 % agree. You know, you've written, you've grown as a writer, you've grown as a recipe developer. Like, I know I'm a better recipe developer than I was 10 years ago. So this should be my best book. I see that in Alison Roman's fourth book, which is coming out in November.

40:11It's a really cool evolution for her. Yeah. And like yourself, you know, this long publishing history shows this evolution. And I feel like this is your best book. Oh, thank you. It's really, really special. I want to talk about the playlists just a little bit. I was messaging with you last night when I was actually hit the QR code, which I don't do a lot in cookbooks because honestly, controversial as it may be, sometimes those playlists are such throwaways and they're not really good. I agree. Bryant Terry is the exception. Bryant Terry has incredible playlists in his book. So I will. Bryant does an amazing job.

40:51But you had I love XTC, one of my favorite bands. And you had on there this like the deepest cut. Rhodes Gertie, The Globe is like not one of their big songs or even one of the best songs on drums and wires. But it's in there. And then I'm like loving the playlists. Tell me about. I'm so happy you're liking because I feel like you're a music fan. I love music. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not going to take credit for these playlists. Okay, that's right. This is my daughter's doing. So there was originally a different playlist that was just a linger playlist. And it was just basically all my favorite songs, like a lot of, you know, 80s Britpop.

41:31Really? I mean, like what? You know, a lot of George Michael. George Michael, Erasure, Depeche. Yeah, all that stuff, Pet Shop Boys. Pet Shop Boys. I mean, I kind of like this playlist, to be honest. I'll share it with you. But then I thought, you know what? Maybe there's something cool I could do with my daughter. My daughter's 19. She's really into music. She's actually studying music. She's a musician herself. and she has this knowledge of music that is so crazy to me because it's intergenerational she loves the Beach Boys she loves Paul McCartney it crosses a lot of boundaries and she has a music education so she loves classical music and jazz and I was saying to you last night this could be the only playlist where XTC goes into Sam Cooke Yeah, I know.

42:23And I love that. And you did good Sam Cooke songs too. They're really cool playlists that I've actually learned a lot from. I only had a few suggestions. Okay. Some notes. Yep. Some notes. Did you drop any songs? I asked for one to be switched. I can't remember which one. I wanted the Rufus Wainwright song in there, Going to a Town. Going to a Town is such a beautiful song. Yeah. And it ends. So the way she did the playlist is they all have stories. There's a lot of light and shade in them. There's, you know, smaller moments, quieter moments leading into big moments. So she really kind of thinks about these playlists a lot.

43:00She makes a lot for herself. Ezra Furman is going to be wondering why she's getting so many listens because that's Scout's favorite artist. I love that you have some smaller artists in there. And you have it at the beginning of every chapter. And again, love the music. And shout out to your daughter for having great taste. Thank you. Yeah. I love that. So, Hedy, where are you traveling next? Because I think your books and your writing is very informed by travel. You have, like, such a great way of writing about cuisines around the world through travel, through, of course, being born in Australia and living in the United States.

43:35You have that point of view as well. It's not easy to represent a culture with a recipe, but I think you do it very honestly. Yeah. I mean, I think that I try and do that. So, thank you for saying that. I think the head notes, I really try and show where a recipe is from and where I'm inspired from. I have traveled a bit. I mean, I used to live in London, so I did a lot of travel, European travel in my 20s when I lived there. But where I'm traveling next is actually Australia. I'm going there for Christmas. I'm going back to Sydney. My first Australian Christmas for over a decade. No way. So you're not on the yearly visit track?

44:13We usually go every couple of years, usually, in the 10 years that we've lived here. Yeah, yeah. It's so expensive. Yes, it is. And we usually go for, like, a longer time. Yeah. So we go during their winter. Yeah. Which is our summer here. I was just there recently for the Australian Leg of the Lingabook tour, and it was so beautiful. Their winter is crazy. It's ridiculous. Yeah. Like, it's so warm. Yeah. I mean, I visited in January once and that was hot. That was hot. It was nice though. Yeah. I got to get back there. So that'll be nice. What is a Christmas tradition for you? Pavlova. Yeah, of course.

44:54And lots of salads. And my husband, I will go this year because I haven't done it for a long time, but he usually goes to the Sydney fish markets at midnight. Yeah. Because it's open 24 hours at Christmas time. Because seafood is a big thing for Australian Christmases. I don't eat the seafood, but he will go. He's already planning on it. So the kids will probably all go. It's a fun thing to do. Did you go to Golden Century? The yum cha there was truly the best I've ever had. Yeah. Sydney yum cha is something very special. And it's always my first meal off the plane. It's something special there.

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46:59Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. Hedy on This is Taste, we ask guests about their certain tastes. So to close this interview, here's a rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Okay, I think I'm ready. You think you're ready? Yeah, yeah. The best fruit. Okay, bananas. Okay. I'm a daughter of a banana monger, I have to say that. Yeah, you have to say that. How do you like to eat a banana? I peel it and eat it. I also put it in my smoothie.

47:36And I really, you know, what? I mean, it was the most ridiculous follow-up question. So I take full credit for that. Well, no, people have opinions about how they eat their bananas. No, I know. I was kind of trying to go there and you said some things. I peel it and eat it. Yeah. The worst vegetable. I hate this question so much. How do I answer that? People answer it very willingly. Willingly. I like all vegetables. But, you know, I was thinking like one of the root vegetables, maybe parsnip. Not that exciting to me. But I feel bad about saying it. You know what? We had a real go viral with that response.

48:16Like we had a lot of comments. Over what? Parsnip? There was a large contingency of parsnip love in the world. There always is, though. I don't see it. I don't see it. Do you like parsnip? Hell no. It's not the most exciting. It's vegetal. And like when you when the best way of serve a parsnip is with butter and cream in the puree that were so common. I mean, so is there an acceptable answer to this? I mean, I love all vegetables. I'm going to be honest. But I'm disturbed by this. But anyway. I appreciate your honesty. What is your typical breakfast? Two cups of black coffee made in my mocha master.

48:58Oh, I love the mocha pot. Mocha Master. Sorry. I love the Mocha Master. It is the superior brewer. It is. What's the coffee choice right now? Oh, it's a Costa Rica coffee. I can't remember the brand, but I always buy the same one. Buy the same one. And that's it. Just coffee. When I travel, I pine for that cup of coffee. And actually in Australia, a lot of the cafes now serve coffee made in a Mocha Master. They call it a batch brew and it costs$6. Yeah. And I like it. Yeah. It's expensive. I like a$6 cup of coffee. You can go back to several hours of me saying that on this podcast. I think that's beautiful.

49:36Here's the thing about travel. You can make that cup of coffee in your hotel room. Oh, what do you use? I've always wondered about. Collapsible cone. Oh, yeah. A filter, pre-ground coffee, and a hot water source like a kettle. Okay. You can do it. I mean, you can have that coffee in your home. It's true. But then I have nothing to whine about. It's true. And finding coffee without coffee in your body is such a joy about travel. Yeah. Isn't that so fun? Sydney has great coffee. It's insanely good. Really is true. And it's not just a flat white. Let's move on from that one. Yeah. Great roasting, incredible culture.

50:10They really, you know, the Australians, like, you know, you really pioneered cafe culture. They really take things very seriously there, but for a good reason, because it's excellent. It's excellent. The best dessert. Pavlova. Yeah. Yeah. Australia Day. End of Jan. My favorite. Beautiful, beautiful dessert. Yeah. Can make it with my eyes closed. It's great. And I always, I have cans of passion fruit in my pantry that I bring over from Australia. Nice. Because to me, there's no pavlova without passion fruit. I love that combination. I don't think I've had one with passion fruit. Oh, it's essential.

50:44You haven't had an Australian pavlova then? Yeah, maybe I have, but I thought of it as more strawberry. It might confuse me. You can have strawberry on it, but you've got to have the passion fruit over the top. You've got to have passion fruit. Yeah, so you have the fruit and then you pour the passion fruit pulp over the top. That's the key. Yeah. Is there a restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead? Oh, this one's kind of recent, but R &D. Oh, yeah. Do you know R &D in Prospect Heights? Just closed. I was going to say, I thought they were open. Just closed a few weeks ago. Yeah, I'm like breaking news here.

51:14They had this sandwich that was my absolute favorite. Kale salad sandwich. Yeah, so I'm very sad. But I think Gertie's has taken it over. Okay, cool. And I haven't been yet. I don't think that has reopened yet. Maybe they can do an homage and bring the kale salad sandwich back. I think they are doing an homage. Sandwich back. So, yeah. We're going to have to go try. When you're craving fast food, where are you going? Probably Shake Shack. Shrimp burger. It's good. I could also say McDonald's french fries dipped in a sundae, but they don't have a veggie burger. Mm-hmm. So. They need to have one.

51:49McDonald's needs to have a veggie burger. You know, I had recently, I had In-N-Out animal style grilled cheese. And I have to say, it was so damn good. Oh, amazing. I thought you were going to go the other direction. No, it was incredible. And their fries are incredible. Well done. You know, the whole In-N-Out thing where you have to know all the different words to use to get the good stuff. The winks, all that stuff, yeah. It is. We had a whole discourse in our family about whether it was as good as Shake Shack. For me, I like that better, but I can't get it. Unless I'm in California. If you're in Cali.

52:27I was a vegetarian for like four years. I used to do Whopper, no meat. Oh, yeah. I did that when I was young. Whopper, no meat, it always kind of hit for me. Yeah, when I was a young 20s. Yeah. McDonald's, no meat. Yeah. But they always charge you the full price, which I always felt that was like not cool, guys. I want something more thoughtful than Big Mac, no meat. It feels like there's a collaboration in your future. Come on. Come on then, McDonald's. Come on, McDonald's. Step up. We're very pro McDonald's on the show. Yeah, I've heard. Yeah, we are. I was so surprised to hear this. I live my truth.

53:00I mean, I think that for that price and for it's good. It's delicious. Don't eat it all the time. Can't do that. I have nothing against McDonald's unless, but there's no veggie burger. No, there's no veggie burger and there needs to be a club with Hedy. Corporate folks listening, let's make that happen. your favorite city outside america to visit for food tokyo yeah i've never been to seoul or um that's very high on my list yeah of places to go because i think i would like it a lot i think you would too but um tokyo is mind-blowing i've been there twice in the last few years you know uh korea is is really uh seeing a boom in in plant-based yeah i heard incredible i mean It's not just obviously the Buddhist cuisine and the long tradition there.

53:49Very important to culture there. But in fast casual, in a lot of restaurants, they have whole guides to it. It's very cool. Wow, yeah. I'm super excited to do that. Yeah, very cool. I think Tokyo is sick of Australian visitors. Yeah, I mean there's been a lot of visitors from America there as well. I think it's a pretty visited place. That's another podcast. We can talk about tourism and responsible tourism. Yeah, that's true. Go in the fall or winter to Seoul. Summers are tough. Yes, that's true. Summers are tough. Last one, your favorite sandwich. Well, you know, I already mentioned the kale salad sandwich.

54:24But I do have a favorite, another favorite, which is the Vegetalian from Court Street Grocers. And there is a Vegetalian-inspired salad in this book. I love that. And I think that that is a great choice there. Court Street Grocers, elite. Elite. Great. Hedy Lou McKinnon, what a great conversation. Please come back. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Anytime. See you soon.

54:54Tony Chapman, welcome to This Is Taste. How are you? I'm good. How are you? Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to chat. I want to hear all about this. You're doing a McNugget, your own version. I mean. Exciting, right? I mean, it's beyond exciting. I mean, pro McDonald's podcast first and two, it's my favorite menu item. Yeah, I loved McDonald's and I love chicken nuggets and like I just grew up eating them and I love making them at home. Well, that's the teaser audience because we'll get to that. But when you're in New York, when you're back here, back home, are there any places you're dining out restaurant wise?

55:26I have like so many chef friends. I usually let them pick, but I find myself in like multicultural communities. I like to go to Chinatown and eat. I like to go to Little Italy. I like to go to the Little Caribbean. and I like to eat at like the small hole-in-the-wall restaurants. Like I'm really big on like small business, mom-and-pop shop, hole-in-the-wall takeout. Like I'll order takeout to my hotel. And then occasionally like the fancy restaurant that like someone's paying for. But yeah, there's so many like special spots. Tell me about chef. You got some chef friends. Yeah. Are there any chefs in New York you want to shout out?

55:57Yeah, yeah. I mean, I actually have a lot of industry friends. Like that's where I draw like a lot of my inspiration from. So people that just work in the industry, they work in restaurants, They work on the line. They're deeply passionate, like, about food. And, yeah, it just—it also, like, keeps you grounded and, like, helps you, like, stay, like, super obsessed with, like, cooking, which I really love. For sure. Well, let's go back to growing up in Jersey City. What's food like in your home? Yeah, Jersey City was really awesome, multicultural, super diverse. Grew up eating a lot of Puerto Rican food.

56:27That's my background. I'm Puerto Rican and African American. So grew up with my dad's side of the family. So it was a lot of like comforting, like soulful kind of like Latin dishes. So lots of soups, lots of beans, lots of rice. Like imagine like if you've ever been to like Puerto Rico or Dominican Republic or something like that. Like all of the food that's there. Like that's what we grew up eating. But yeah, like lots of soups. Like my grandmother loved to make soups. And that's something that I remember eating. And we had two dinners. So we'd eat like. Oh, really? Yeah. Double dinner, obviously.

56:59Double dinner. Yeah. Yeah, right after school and then like around 830. Is there one recipe from childhood that you just like land on that's like a memory? Yeah, like my grandmother, like whenever we were sick, she would make this soup. I call it kick a cold soup because like it was like when we were sick, she would make this or when anyone in the neighborhood was sick. And it has like lime and it has like chicken broth and it has like all these like secret Puerto Rican spices that like really help open up your nasal. But like it's really delicious. I make it even when I'm not sick. That probably stands out the most.

57:28Well, I really like your culinary style. You know, it channels your Afro-Latina heritage and also really has a lot of creativity in the way you execute the recipes. You know, you're doing adobo to mac and cheese and cookies and cream tres leches. I mean, it's a really unique blend of cultures. What are you offering fans of yours who know you from online with this cookbook? Yeah, I think like one of the things that is like a differentiating factor is that, you know, I do have like a lot of like all American recipes with like the slight emphasis on my culture. So this twist. So these are like dishes that everyone like really loves, but like they're going to have like a little flair to them.

58:11Like I try to make the dishes like as like broad as possible. So you have things like peach cobbler and cheesecake for desserts and chocolate chip cookies. But then like you have classic soups that everyone loves too, like a loaded baked potato soup or short ribs. But there's like this little edge that makes the dish not only unique, but like super flavorful. And that usually comes from like my culture and how we cook on both sides. And so I like to like sprinkle a little bit of this and a little bit of that. And so it's like really like unique and extravagant and like flavorful. It's great. Every recipe when I was going through the book, I was like, these are really, these are hits.

58:46It's like hits only. Yeah. It's going that way. Yeah, I tried to do that. I tried to like make like popular food favorites, very viral kind of friendly stuff that you like see online. But like stuff that's also like super approachable that you can make at home. What was your big social media moment like, your first moment? Oh, my goodness. I think when I started working with Tasty, I was having a lot of moments around that time. Like this was at the height of like Tasty like kind of transitioning from like long form to digital. So there was a lot of engagement happening. And so they brought me in to like work with them over the course of like a year.

59:20And we were doing like this series where I would go into a grocery store with like a limited budget and I would get like really creative. And it was going like crazy viral around that time. It was like post after post. And I was really looking forward to it. And yeah, I think it's been like super lovely. To be in the tasty universe and then expand out to your own platforms is exciting. Yeah, it has been like really, really exciting. Very cool. For sure. I want to hear about, I've never seen this before. Brilliant idea. Rum and cola wings. Love that. Tell me about it. Yeah. So like growing up, like I think like the quintessential like drink in like the Puerto Rican community is like a rum and coke, right?

1:00:04Like that's what people like to drink. It's easy and it's like cheap or whatever. And so I think there was like one night where I was like, you know, just making chicken and I wanted to make like a sauce and that's what we were all drinking. and it actually is really nice. Like when you like cook it down, like rum and Coke, it's like really nice and it's like sweet and sticky, but you like taste like the rum. Rum is like obviously really, really popular in Puerto Rico. So I love it. It's like one of my favorite little wing recipes. It's like a nice little party trick too because like people are always like, oh, ah, oh my gosh, yeah, that's cool.

1:00:37What's in the sauce? So you're basically reducing down rum and Coke and then doing a chicken wing recipe and then doing a combination, like a tossing it in there. Correct. And it has a little bit of brown sugar, you know, a little bit of soy sauce and rice wine vinegar, things like that to kind of like bring out those flavors. But like the base of the sauce is like some rum that we cook down to the alcohol cooks out, of course. And then yeah, cola, Coke. I love that. Pozzolay verde. I like that a lot. When I looked at the photo, man, I wanted to have that in the kitchen. That was a nice recipe.

1:01:07Tell me about it. Yeah, that one is probably one of my favorite. It's so special. And again, And growing up in like this soup kind of like family where soups are really important. Like we also really liked green soups because they're like really vibrant and they have a lot of good stuff in them. And it's super flavorful and it's an easy way to like get your greens in. Because my style of cooking is very comforting and wholesome and like gooey, cheesy, like super flavorful. But this is one of those like recipes that you can make and like freeze and like have throughout the summer or the winter.

1:01:40it's so so flavorful zesty yeah comforting the sour cream is like a nice little touch it's it's it's i think it's honestly like top five top five in the book i mean right away i was like that probably my one of my top recipes and i haven't made it but just the idea of it is you pay tribute to the new york city sal chicken wings but they're not the chicken wings that most people realize what's the story behind it yeah definitely i think i grew up like eating a lot of like chinese takeout food right like you know growing up on the east coast like that's a thing so we go we get like chicken wings pork rice egg rolls like duck sauce all that stuff and uh when i left i mean i found that like outside of new york it's just not the same it's not the same it's really not i mean you do find little places in like different cities like that one little place I can like try to replicate it, but it just wasn't the same.

1:02:34So I was like, I want to make some of this stuff at home. So there's like an entire chapter in the cookbook that like has the pork fried rice, the duck sauce, the chicken wings and all of that. And my editor, Jen, she was like, you know, I grew up like my family owned a Chinese takeout restaurant. And like, this is like as close as it gets. Like I was really inspired. She was like, how did you know what we do? And I was like, you know, I have my ways. You have resources. I know people who know people. But yeah, I know all the little secrets to get like that extra crunch or like that flavor. You're talking about Jen Sitt and her family runs a great restaurant in Kingston, New York.

1:03:10Yes. I love that Jen edited your book. Yes. Amazing. She knows. She knows. She knows. Exactly. And so that was like, I was really proud of that because I was like, oh, wow, I'm legit. You know, to get like that stamp of approval from someone who has done it is just amazing. Okay. We've reached the moment in the show where we're going to talk about this big nugget. So, like, you have your own version of the big nugget. I think they do a pretty good job. Yeah. What are you improving? I'm very curious. Yeah, they do an amazing job. Better words, amazing. Yeah, they do an amazing job. I think, like, you know, chicken nuggets are really good.

1:03:43Like, even if people are, like, they have their things about them, McDonald's, like, does it the best. Hands down. Definitely. I will definitely say that. I think, like, what it was is that I started having a lot of friends who were pregnant, and they were telling me they were craving McDonald's. but that, you know, their doctors were like, maybe you should stay away from McDonald's or try to make nuggets at home so that you can kind of control what's in them. And so I was like, you know what? Let me see if I can replicate this at home using minimal ingredients. Like, I mean, it's literally carbonated water, cornstarch, flour, oil, salt, pepper.

1:04:16And then, of course, the chicken. And it's all about the ratios, but, like, it's really, really good. And you can, like, make them, you know, your perfect size. It's really cool because I, like, shape them exactly like McNuggets. to just like form them with your hands. Because we all know that shape. It's so recognizable. Yeah, we know that shape. And so like it's like nostalgia. And like sometimes you want that stuff at home. Like I remember like during COVID or during snowstorms or like sometimes it's like a weekend and you want to do something fun. I think making those like popular food favorites, like those takeout dishes, that's like what I'm like super excited about.

1:04:50I'm absolutely going to try this recipe. I can't wait. What's the dipping sauce of choice? Honey mustard. We have a whole sauce chapter. You can do like honey mustard. You can do like barbecue sauce. There's ranch, of course. Like it really just depends on what you want to do. But I've always been like a honey mustard kind of girl. It's easy. Yeah, honey mustard and sweet and sour. Yeah, love sweet and sour. Those are my guys. So I want to talk about candied yams. Underrated, underrated. Like it's truly one of the best desserts around. When it's good, it's good. The balance of acidity and sweetness, the yams just work with that syrupy sauce.

1:05:27Talk about yours. Yeah, it's like such a really nice holiday side to your point. And it's like sweet and savory. So it really goes well with like a lot of the other things on the plate for Thanksgiving or during holiday season. So when you're having things like mash or turkey or like, you know, green bean casserole, like the yams is like it cuts it really nice. And yeah, it's like it kind of pays homage to my African American roots. Like I, my family, that side of my family is originally from Detroit and they migrated there. And so like I learned a lot of like those recipes from them. And it's really just super simple, right?

1:06:04Like it's just the brown sugar, the butter, a little vanilla extract, good vanilla extract, of course. And then like the sweet potatoes and you allow it to like slow cook. It takes time. A lot of my recipes, you know, you be patient. It's worth it. For sure. So that's like an amazing side that everyone should try. And you used a really great word, ratios. Because you have simple ingredients, but if it's not exactly measured correctly, it's not going to be great. It's going to be too sweet. It's going to be something else. Yeah, absolutely. Ratio is everything when cooking. And I recipe tested everything in the cookbook, like myself, two, three, even four times.

1:06:39Because sometimes somebody can have one oven and that can control things. But I try to make recipes that work. Like I think about, okay, whether somebody has a fancy oven or an old beat-up oven that their landlord doesn't want to replace, this recipe is going to work. And I take a look at all those different factors to make sure it's really good. It makes it very challenging. Yeah. And when you test it four times, you know it's going to work. For sure. That's the best. Tony, and this is Taste. We ask guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid-fire, fast and furious taste check.

1:07:12Are you ready? I'm ready. The best fruit. Oh, mangoes. Love that. The worst vegetable? Broccolini. Yeah, it can be a tough hang. Yeah, broccolini for me. Yeah. What is your typical breakfast? Oh, good one. This is a good one. I do a two-egg sunny side up with tostones, so just fried plantain. Sometimes I'll have it with avocado, some bacon. Pretty heavy breakfast, but I need it. I like to eat. Start the day right. Big one, the best dessert. Oh, the best dessert, bread pudding. There's a place in Hoboken, New Jersey called Antique Bakery. They have one of like the oldest cast irons and, sorry, brick ovens in the entire country.

1:07:52And they have a phenomenal bread pudding that inspired the one that I have in my cookbook. It's like big and bready and they use brioche bread. And it's phenomenal when done correctly. A couple more. Your favorite city outside of America to visit for food. Favorite city outside of America to visit. I have to say San Juan. I'm Puerto Rican. Puerto Rican food and culture is vibrant unlike anything I've seen. And it's just, it's like so under like rated to me. It's a great call. Last one, your favorite sandwich. You know what? That's like tough. I'm going to have to go with a bacon, egg, and cheese.

1:08:23Like I grew up eating them. Yeah. And never ketchup, hot sauce, a little bit of salt and pepper. Easy, really tasty. Can never go wrong. Tony Chapman, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much.

1:08:42This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skirzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.