681: Don’t Be the Worst Dinner Party Guest with Chelsea Fagan

26:25Even if you're like the best home cook, don't like say, oh, I'm going to bring something and it be like a main or even a vegetable side that may clash with the plan. Can I tell you, I think I have this anecdote in the book, but like I have seen some truly, I mean, horrendous guest behavior, but none more so than like I know sometimes men go on fitness journeys that like really preclude them from eating most things, which is truly none of my business. But this man showed up to my house party. I didn't really know him like that. He was a colleague of my husband's. He brought his own rotisserie chicken, his own like gallon of water and his own like supplies for a smoothie.

27:09And like started rooting around in my kitchen while I was cooking to like make himself his little like creatine dinner. And then was just picking out a rotisserie chicken. That's wild shit. And I was just like. Wild shit, man. Leave. Please leave. What's the industry your husband works in? He's in tech. Okay. He's in tech. I was going to say finance 1A and tech 1B. So those are my guesses. Well, he kind of works on the border of those two things. And let me tell you, one thing I cannot stress enough, not only does hosting slash being a good guest not cost money, it is often the richest motherfuckers who show up with the worst manners.

27:50like the number of times I've had people who I know personally are worth in the eight figures who show up empty-handed for a for a house party grotesque yeah I think that's just good behavior is to always bring something and it doesn't have to be expensive it doesn't have to be homemade it just just brings something just bring something it's I think like there's like that frat house like house party mindset that people just don't grow out of and they're in their mid-30s and they You just think, oh, we're just showing up to a party. But it's like, no, we're adults here, guys. We're adults. Also, like, if I recall correctly, even when you were at that age, you would show up to a party with a bottle.

28:26Yeah, you'd always have a bottle. It could be off the$10 rack or whatever. Just bring a bottle. Yeah. Interesting social science here in this book. I mean, it's really it's fascinating stuff. I love this book because I think you offer a lot of really cool ideas. I want to zoom out and just talk about, you know, the idea of the dinner party. And, you know, social media brain rot and how the dinner party on social plays out in so many different ways and how we are so obsessed with documenting our parties that we sometimes like lose the plot. I think similarly to like this, the sort of epidemic of like the very, very contrived viral recipes that I think ultimately put some people off of cooking because it felt too intimidating slash pretentious.

29:20There's also been a rise of home content creators. Here's the thing. So I've been doing a 30 day series for this book, which is like the most I've ever put my actual like life and home on social media. Yeah. Harrowing. Yeah. Harrowing. Yeah, because your work is in financial advice and just like helping people with their financial diet. And so this is new for you. To a large extent, yes. And like what is harrowing, I find, is like the first of all pressure to like turn your life into content. Horrible. But also, like, suddenly you're looking at your home and everything feels imperfect and you see the flaws and you and people pick at things in the comments and you like, for example, I posted a video about making a beverage station.

30:12Dozens of comments about how I need to buy an ice bucket, something that, to be honest, hadn't really crossed my mind. I just used a ceramic bowl for ice, which is working just fine. But it was like I was like, ooh, this is like I see very easily how turning how sort of the act of exposing what you are creating immediately opens it up to such a higher level of insecurity and self -criticism. And it also explains why, like, for me, as someone who really does love entertaining in the home, decorating my home, you know, it really is a passion of mine. I had to go out of my way to basically mute or unfollow every single account where, like, the person's brand is their home and their job.

30:56Because not only is it incredibly unrealistic from, like, a financial slash sponsorship perspective, like, half of that stuff is, like, paid for. But also like there's such a pressure to constantly be turning things over, doing something new, doing something better. And to me, what is so special and sacred about entertaining in the home is that it is a three-dimensional, five-sensory experience that can never fully translate to a photo or a video. And so the constant sort of rendering of your own space and life, that's why I prefer to follow magazines and things like that, because at least there is a clear separation of church and state.

31:39Oh, absolutely. And it's just in magazines, it's clearly this is all aspirational. Yes. It's not real. It's not like in the feed, it feels a little too real, especially when it's being blended with literally real things. Like, so it's more confusing. I like that idea of just like thinking about editorial as being the place that maybe you should be looking to more than these influencers. Yeah. I because I genuinely well, first of all, a lot of them need to get their children the hell off social. Why am I seeing your underage child in your content? Let's start there. But moreover, I do genuinely feel and we've done video essays about this before.

32:15Like it is very bad for mental health to turn your private personal life into your full time job. You know, I started on YouTube in 2015, 16, which is like the OG YouTuber days. Almost all of them crashed out. Almost all of them like went offline, stopped entirely because the sort of act of transmuting the life that you're physically living and economically living into an endless source of new engaging content is it's almost inherently at cross purposes. And so I do feel like I know a lot of these people, these women, especially personally, who, you know, their lives are so aspirational and so beautiful online.

33:01And they are very depressed. Yeah. I mean, you think about the actual you're plotting your life like it were a film or a screenplay. Like literally in home offices, you see like no cards up on a wall about what my life is going to do for the next six months for content. Can't be healthy. Can't be healthy. And again, like the pressure that it puts on you to consume, like there's this one I like I just mentioned Philly apartment and any of my girlfriends who are like kind of interested in this stuff will be like, I know exactly who you're talking about. There was this online creator who went viral because she has a beautiful apartment in like downtown Philadelphia that was just like gorgeous, very aspirational, whatever.

33:40She like moved. She bought a home in the suburbs of Philly to go live in that home with her family, but kept her rental in downtown Philly just to make content out of it. Yeah. And I was like, diva. Like, we have lost the plot. Yeah, it's losing the plot. How did you survive YouTube then? How did you come out the other way? Or was it maybe not that clean and simple? Because my content since inception, like we started as one of John and Hank Green's channels and they have educational channels. So it has always been explicitly about education, commentary, you know, where it's a large, I mean, not large, but like there's seven staff.

34:17So like it's more than just myself. We have, you know, a lot of people writing, producing, things like that. But like I've never had, you know, my husband on the channel, my family, my friends. Like it's not about my life. And I think that that like there's some of me, but I do think that to take it back to this content online, like there is a very distinct shift when your value proposition is look at how fabulous my life is. Yeah, you said it so well. You're not all down on social media. And I love the sentiment at the end of the book where you talk about following older influencers and maybe returning to the Nancy Meyers of it all.

35:00I thought that was a really nice sentiment because I think you are undoubtedly going to stay on social, even if you take that break. So we have to have some real talk. It's like you're going to be following influencers. It's highly entertaining and engaging. But maybe you have a suggestion of maybe a different way to follow for home entertaining. So as I say, I like really go out of my way. We're actually doing a new podcast starting later this month where I interview women over 50, generally not even really women who are particularly online, but, you know, who just live some life and have some tales to weave.

35:35But I do think that there is, you know, a really inherent youth obsession that comes with social media and a sense of scarcity and a sense of competition. And I think that seeing people who are at a different place in their lives, who come from a different generation, who've been through a lot just by dint of being on this planet for a long time is incredibly valuable, I think, especially for women, because we tend to sort of get squeezed out of public life as we get older. and as it pertains to community you know one of the things that's really striking to me and we talk about it in the book is like the reason women are so much happier as they get older and happier in divorce is because they have friends they have really really strong social bonds they have profound platonic relationships that they curate and cultivate and i notice that that's even stronger in the older generations um and like several of the women i've been interviewing, like they went through, I mean, truly like life upending divorces, for example, like one of them, her husband essentially like robbed her of nearly like between half a million and a million dollars that she'd worked her whole life to save.

36:50And, you know, her friends all swooped in to carry her through that period to, I mean, they literally came over physically and like moved her out of the house and, you know, same day. They literally even emptied out half the pantry because they're like half this flower is yours like but to me like that is the most compelling reason to even when it can feel like an extra bit of homework in a life that feels kind of overextended all the more reason to invest in our relationships absolutely thank you for saying that it's really a great sentiment i think we all are seeking those those types of relationships in some way, some more than others.

37:34And be it through religious organization or a sport or just being maybe it's your office. But I agree with you, forming those bonds later in life really pay off. 100%. And by the way, some kernels won't pop, right? Like that is, I think we're also deeply afraid of rejection, more so now than ever, I fear. And people are really afraid of investing and then not having it reciprocated or being rejected or being, you know, in some way turned down or not valued. And like ultimately that kind of is the cost of entry a little bit. Like you do have to run the risk of that happening. Like I, to this day, even as someone who wrote this book, who does this stuff, like I throw parties and every single time there's some flakes.

38:24You know what I mean? And that I think you have to get used to and also embrace that like the ups and downs of these relationships and the imperfection and the vulnerability of forming these relationships is part of the human experience. and feeling a little sad sometimes is okay. And feeling, you know, wanting to become friends with someone, putting yourself out there. You know, I always say like part of the reason I think especially Gen Z struggles to make new friends is because it's hard to accept that the early stages of making a new friend is kind of like dating. It's a little awkward. Well, on that note, I have two people in my life, one younger, one same age as me.

39:03So, you know, millennial and Gen Z. they used the platonic dating app to find friends and they had great successes. Some psychos on there. Some psychos on all apps. But I think some people don't realize it's even a thing that you can actually find friendship on these apps and you can find cool people on there for a platonic relationship. A thousand percent. And I talk about this in the book, but like Gen Z is drinking less. Millennials are drinking less. That's fine. And bar culture, to a large extent, like, isn't great. Like, there's a lot about it that's, like, expensive and draining and whatever, like, kind of, you know, sad by moments.

39:42But, like, the answer can't be we don't go to the bars so we go nowhere. Do you know what I mean? Like we need to take it upon ourselves to find other things to do. Like I don't disagree that like decoupling social life from alcohol is an important thing. And that's something clearly boomers got a little wrong. But when you actually look at like the net net numbers, like we used to ascribe false health benefits to moderate drinking. When you look at those numbers, it's actually that their most moderate drinking occurs in social situations. And there's a ton of benefits to those social situations that are falsely ascribed to drinking.

40:18Yeah. And so, like, listen, I think we all know boomers who are like low grade alcoholic and like don't even acknowledge it and like can't even fathom a social life that doesn't revolve around alcohol. Clearly, that's not something we need to carry over. But the answer can't be just scrolling on our phones eight hours a day and like being a total sort of recluse in our social life. What's the activity then? I mean, for real, like, I'm really curious, what aren't we seeing that maybe is a great way to have these relationships that are maybe outside of the alcohol paradigm? Well, first of all, let's get back in the home.

40:55Yeah. Why are we not, like, literally doing, like, the number of things that people tell me about the rituals and things that they've created in their home, you know, make up a holiday, make up a thing to, like, oh, on, you know, the first day of fall, we all get together. We do little arts and crafts. We, you know, watch a special movie. We all do a potluck. Like some people are like, I have soup Sundays where everyone we rotate and like we make a, you know, a soup at a different person's house. Like we do board game nights. I have one of my dear friends is she runs a Dungeons and Dragons club out of their home.

41:29Like there's a million things to do in the home and it's generally a lot less expensive. But also like join clubs, join meetup groups, like do activities. Like I always say that like the value that you often get in terms of friendship from joining an activity outside the home, you know, whether that's signing up for a class or learning a new language and going to language groups or, you know, whatever the case may be. Yeah. A political group is a good example. Like the actual connection is more based on the fact that you're all the type of person who will show up to something like that. Agree fully.

42:03It's just showing up is like 90 percent of the thing. 90 percent. Yeah, fully agree. And if you're with a community of people who show up to things, you're going to be like minded in that simple fact that you showed up to a thing. Yes. And also socializing with people of different cultures, of different age brackets, of different like, you know, walks of life. Like that is something that I think a lot of people like I love to do canvassing like door to door. Me too. I'm a huge fan of that. Yeah. Love it. Solidarity. For a lot of reasons. I love that. Anyways, we don't need to go to politics, but it's just a great social experiment.

42:39And you get to spend time with people that you would otherwise never encounter in your day to day life. And especially when you do in your neighborhood, you get to meet people in the neighborhood. I feel like the showing up part of it is so important. And we have to just put ourselves out there and and just go to the thing. Go to the thing, guys. Go to the thing. And don't let a doorman gaslight you in these nice neighborhoods. You have a constitutional right to canvas. Yeah, yeah. This is so much fun. I feel like we could talk all day about social science and maybe we'll come back and we'll talk more.

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44:42Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there.

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46:30The best fruit? Pineapple. Love it. You can grill it. You can braise it. Al pastor. Oh, yeah. Pineapple is an upside-down cake? Come on. You're just naming so many great foods there. Worst vegetable? This is an unpopular opinion, but I'm really not a big fan of eggplant. It's popular. It's a tough hang. Well, I mean, to me both tastes and sort of has the texture of like a dirty sponge. So true. What is your typical breakfast? Coffee. Really? I don't eat breakfast. I was one of those people who was just never hungry in the morning since I'm a little girl, and I used to force myself to eat breakfast, and then I felt sluggish all day and then I was just like, actually, I don't need to do this.

47:14The best dessert?

47:19I would say anything. Honestly, I'm going to say, you know what I'm going to say? I'm going to say a babo rum. Interesting. We had a guest on recently. Do you know babo rum is Polish and not French? That's crazy to me. Yeah. Where's your source? It's a beautiful book called Dobre Dobre as an aside. But anyways, great, great, great call. Yes. And it has to have like a really fresh, beautiful baba and fresh homemade whipped cream. Yeah. To me, whipped cream, like fresh, good whipped cream with like the flecks of vanilla that's like almost at the borderline of butter. If it's that, it's perfect. If it's out of a can, boo.

47:56Yeah, boo. Boo. Unless it's like straight to the mouth at Thanksgiving. Yeah. I can give that. Exactly. Is there a restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead? Yes. They got rid of Frankie Spuntino in the West Village. and I used to love it. It was great. And now, I mean, listen, I live uptown. I can't go to Brooklyn for dinner. Brooklyn, yeah. It was a really great restaurant. It's funny. Weirdly, it didn't work. The one in Keogar Gardens is so prolific. Their sausage and sage butter pasta I still make all the time. Cavatelli, so good. Great for dinner parties. Easiest thing on the menu.

48:30Yeah, certain pastas will hold. I mean, that type of pasta like a cavatelli, you can definitely, it doesn't have to be a la menu. It's not like you're doing cacio e pepe, which I think is like the worst dinner party pasta yeah don't do it like risotto risotto is really bad too not a pasta but but but in the in the zone i think you have to find a pasta that holds up on you know on the table for many many minutes yeah you can't be getting those like gummy ones i would put a carbonara in there too like a carbonara that's been sitting out as a little yeah anything that has like an egg component or or cream can it will break and and solidify get gummy so you just i I think that is the sage brown butter.

49:06I love that pasta. By the way, gemelli is the pasta shape. It's a gemelli. It's a gemelli. At Frankie's. It was, I think. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I have photos. I've had it as cavatelli. I've had it as other things. Do you know that they have that, those flavors on pizza form at F &F in Brooklyn? What is F &F? So it's Brooklyn, I'm sorry to say. You're not going to, you're going to Brooklyn like twice a year. I do go to Brooklyn exactly twice a year. Well, okay. I used to live in Williamsburg. Sure. That wasn't for me. You put in your time. I put in my time. No, but it's honestly just more that like, I don't know if you feel this way, but I feel like in New York because it's such a.

49:43And by the way, this is not just in our heads. It's like 10 times the size of Paris geographically. It's a massive city. It's as big as Chicago. For like if someone lives in Flatbush, I'm like, diva, that's Philly. You know what I mean? For me, from where I live. So for me, it's like either we're meeting up centrally somewhere in like south, you know, southern Manhattan. Or I'm like, I feel like I'm like on the deck of the Titanic. like I wish you well over there. I won't see you very often. So FNF is a pizzeria in Brooklyn. They do a cavatelli in place form. Wow. Wait, the pasta noodles on the pizza?

50:12Well, no, not the noodles, but the flavors of it. They've done that before and it's amazing. Because maybe that's an unpopular thing, but I hate when people put like mac and cheese, grilled cheese or like noodles on pizza. I've gone back and forth in college. There's a place called Ian's that did it really well, but honestly, not my favorite thing either. Where did you go to college? Madison, University of Wisconsin. They did like a mac and cheese pizza. That was quite good. Midwestern King? Yeah, dude. Kalamazoo, Michigan. Oh, wow. Yeah, West Michigan. You're Philly, though. Not though. No, but my parents lived in Philly for six years.

50:44Yeah, yeah. And that was going to Flatbush for me. It's true. I love Philly. I go to Philly all the time. Philly's the best. Great food city. Great food city. When you're craving fast food, where are you going? Ooh, you know what one of my favorite questions to ask people is? is compose your perfect fast food meal with like fries from here, burgers from here, drinks from here. Oh, let's recast it. Let's put you on the spot because you asked this question on your show. So give me three. What's the perfect meal? It doesn't have to be coursed out. Could be coursed out. Could be coursed out. Shake Shack Burger.

51:12Yeah. Chick-fil-A Nuggets. Checkers slash Rally's Fries. A deep cut. I feel like this question needs to be stolen for this taste. What about you? You have to answer it. Oh, I have to answer it too. I'm on the spot. quarter pound with cheese, McDonald's. Wow, crazy. I'm going to say something controversial. Shake Shack fries. Listen, I love a crinkle fry. I love the crinkles. They do it for me. Good cheese sauce, too. And great for dipping, exactly. Yes. They're for dipping, and I think they should definitely be, and then I have to represent Taco Bell. So I think for a middle course, for me, it's definitely double-decker.

51:51Wow. Yeah, that's the middle course. You're like, that's funny. I will say Baja Blast is up there for the beverage. Oh, Baja Blast is so good. I lean Dr. Pepper personally in the fountain, but Baja Blast is pretty great. Have you heard about the Taco Bell Marathon? Oh, we've been discussing it off mic. So Clayton and I ran the bakery half marathon, which was in New York. We ran eight bakeries we covered on the show. But this Taco Bell, it's a 50K. It's 50K. I mean, that's a true marathon. Yeah, it's a little bit over. And honestly, and I think the rules are very cool that you have to, I think within the first 10 miles or 10K, you have to go to four.

52:34And then they have like menu items that you have to be required to try. Are you a runner? Hell no. God, no. My husband's running his first marathon this year. And I've told him it will be his last because even being a marathon spouse is like. Oh, you're giving up. So what's the game plan for food after the marathon? Have you talked about it? Our friends are hosting a party. So all of our friends are coming to watch him in the marathon. We're going to dress up. We're going to be out there cheering. And then our friends slash neighbors, we're all going to head over to their place. And they're just going to do bagel spreads.

53:08Oh, that's nice. That's fun. My husband, I've been very clear with him. You must at least say hello. And then you can go. Because he's like time guy. He wants that time. So he's not going to be. He's like, he's a little into the time, which I think is a mistake. It is, especially if you're a first skid on men. I love armchair quarterbacking physical endeavors that I will never engage in. No, it's great. I think it's cool to have a, and it's great to have a gathering at the end of it. Exactly. 100%. And by the way, I will say, this is a last thing I'm going to say on this, but everyone I know who like does marathons, they're falling apart at the seams.

53:40It's tough. It really is like kind of bad for your body. I ran one in my 20s and I gave it up. I do halves now. That's it. Yeah, but that's like way better. I'm constantly sending my husband videos of like doctors being like marathons are bad for you. They're tough. You should do that. I will. You really should. It seems like something to dip into with your husband at the center of it. Your favorite city outside of America to visit for food. Favorite city outside of America to visit for food. Marseille. Oh, wonderful story. I love that. Why? I'm a huge Marseille fan. I love it. So I, Lordrop, spent half the year in France.

54:18French is my second language growing up. And then I married a French man. And I'm not a huge Paris person. I think Paris is actually one of the most overrated cities in the world. Not that it's bad. It's just for the amount of hype that it gets, I feel like France has a lot more to offer. And to me, Marseille is a superior city for food and for basically everything else. Like, yeah, I'm a southern France girl. Yeah, you go to Cassis, you go to all the places around, the parks around there. Love that shit. I mean, it's a beautiful part of France that definitely, weirdly, you still get that strange, maybe older person is like, Marseille is dangerous.

54:57Well, and it is to an extent. I mean, so is other cities in America. But like, here's the thing about Europe that I will say. You are just constantly getting your shit stolen in a way that they do not do in America. I think because we have guns. But like you, like in Marseille, like everyone I know has been pickpocketed there. I had something stolen there. Like you will get your shit stolen. Yeah, I had my shit stolen this summer. Other city is Naples. Oh, cool. Which is the Marseille of Italy. Beautiful city too. I have to plug Gay Olden for gelato. Gay Olden, so good. Naples. Which by the way, can I say this?

55:31Everyone when I was going to the Amalfi Coast was like skip Naples, go to the Amalfi Coast. I've never hated a place more than the Amalfi Coast. Yeah, I fully agree with that sentiment. It's awful. You're just getting paid. I mean, go to Umbria, honestly. Anywhere. Go to places that— Go to Calabria. I mean, have you been? Yeah, it's like the best. I mean, we'll go a little off mic because we're getting along with this, but tell me about Calabria. No, no, no. I want to, for our listeners, I was in Italy doing a culinary tour, hosting one this summer, and the guide was like— Slay. She was like, don't go to Calabria.

56:05It's so crazy. And I'm like, I need to go to Calabria. Oh, my God. Wait. Were you with Elizabeth Minchili? No, I was not. My diva. Yeah. No, it was not. It was with we do these days. I was with Mauricio Leo and we were having a wonderful time in Emilia-Romagna for two weeks. But our guide, she's a very northern woman. So I give her the grace there. But she was like, don't go to Calabria. What? Calabria is like the best region of Italy. I know. I've read about it. After she said that, I literally was on my phone for an hour reading about going to Calabria because I was like, this needs to happen.

56:35I will also say as much as Amalfi was like a complete tourist trap nightmare in summer, I was in Tropea, Italy for a week in height of tourist season. Nothing but northern Italians. It's kind of a bitch to get to. You will be nothing but Italians. Excellent food, not overpriced, beautiful scenery. Could not endorse it more. Yeah, I think Lecce and Puglia as well is one of those cities that has a ton of Italian tourists, very few American tourists, and just a beautiful region of Italy. Lucca and Tuscany, excellent, excellent, smaller city. We started with Marseille and we ended up in Italy, in regional Italy.

57:16I love that. Also, lastly, because this is where I spend my time in France primarily, Arles. Go to Arles. Oh, the famous artists. So fabulous, Van Gogh chop his ear off. Yeah, yeah, I did. So you spent half a year in France? Yeah, well, so we've been sort of inching up and now it's May to September starting this year. I'm also doing like retreats and stuff there now. Last one, your favorite sandwich. My favorite sandwich. Ooh. You know what I'm going to say? I'm going to say a really good BLT on toasted white bread. Yeah. Buttered white bread. What about you? Buttered. Not buttered, but like, you know, like mayo.

57:57But with mayo. Like toasted, like glistening. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It has to be. Number one is banh mi for me. It's like the one sandwich I don't like. Fair enough. And I've tried to get into it. Fair enough. I'm not going to try to sell the banh mi. I could and I have. Sell it. I like that it's polarizing because I think it has the deep love for it when it's that polarizing. I love the BLT as well. We drafted sandwiches a couple of years ago and that was in our top four. Also, I must shout out in my neighborhood, a little shop called Roti Roll Frankie's. They do these just unbelievable little, I mean, roti rolls.

58:32Yeah, roti rolls are great, great call. Unbelievable. Worth the truck. Chelsea Fagan. Hey. Really fun having you on the show. Please come back. It would be, we have so much more to talk about. I agree. And listen, I famously live very close and have nothing to do. I love it. Thank you so much. I'll be back.

58:53This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.