686: Cha McCoy Is Doing Wine Pairings for the People

26:30So is my man really wine? I don't know. The man is like the vineyards along the way. I feel like it's one of those like 2000 rom-com. I love that. I love rom-com. So trust me, you're giving me new meaning to my whole experience now. And I eventually, around 2018, kind of made a decision that I was going to stop the drama of being in both industries and truly figure out how to, you know, move full force into wine. And that's what I did. Left my engineering company at the time and decided to relocate, like take the path so it make the steps for me to start relocating to Portugal. That's such a big decision.

27:10I imagine your mom must have had a lot of feelings about it. Like, what did you kind of like keep in mind as like your guiding kind of ethos into why you wanted to move and like work into wine more fully? I'm a big believer. So I think my faith just kind of felt I felt convicted to just keep going. like it kept pulling me and I didn't know why like you know at that time I was already or preparing I think I was wine enthusiast 40 under 40 um I was getting recognition for the communion wine dinner series that I had already started so the fact that doors were opening up and maybe the recognition and I was getting I was like this is clearly not by just happenstance because I didn't I wasn't coming from a hospitality background where folks were probably working in wine for years in restaurants.

27:56And I mean, not just women or black women. I mean, folks who were not getting the type of attention or media attention. So I realized the way I was speaking about wine, the way I was highlighting wine and the community that I was building around wine was something unique, you know, and I feel very much like called to kind of go full force with it.

28:20And I'm very much a, I was an independent kid. And I think that shows, but I think she's just, she still does the side eye, you know, like if you're like, what's happening? You have a whole book now. I feel like that's like what every mom wants to put on their bookshelf. For sure. For sure. I love that you mentioned the communion series. I think that's how I first started following your work online here in New York. Can you maybe speak a little bit about what the idea was behind that series and what you kind of learned by putting it into practice with events? Yes. So I would say that's a good two part question.

28:50And first, the supper clubs, wine dinner series, I recognized. Like, that was a big thing. I'm trying to remember. I mean, now we have, like, the outsider or out—like, they're in the field doing these really dramatic long table dinners. Outstanding in the field. Outstanding in—yeah, outstanding in the field. There was a few other—at that time, supper clubs in these abandoned buildings. Like, that was all the rave around that time. And I remember mentioning it because I had a bunch of friends, chef friends. And I was like, oh, I'm going to be to Psalm and you guys should do the food and we could do this.

29:24And they were like, girl, we can't be doing that. We're at the restaurant. Like we can't be everywhere. Like we're tired on Sundays. We don't want to be doing these Sunday dinners with you. Some of them were like super excited about it. But I think just matching up the days of when, like how can we do it consistently became, you know, a little bit too much to like beyond their capacity, especially during O &D, during the holiday season. And so I was like, okay, I'm working at the wine shop. I have access to wine. And I went on, I mean, I went to visit my cousin. She lives in Paris. And she took me to a tasting, let's just say a tasting room experience that you would normally have at a winery.

30:02But it was in someone's, like, at a venue space. It was not a winery. It was in the heart of Paris. and this person was, I don't know if she was, she's a Psalm, but she definitely came, moved there from expat from California. And she was like, child, you should do it. You should, you know, create some type of thing where people can, you know, imbibe with you and you can be able to tell the experience and stories you have about wines and about the wines you're passionate about. And this was after trying to find jobs as a sommelier in New York City and trying to get that service component. those who know trying to take the court of the masters of sommeliers exam there is a service component and I just worked I knew wine knowledge because I worked at a wine shop now for years but it was the service component I was also I was always anxious about and so I was like okay I'm gonna get a job as a sommelier and when I didn't get one it was kind of I felt defeated you know and she was like yeah just create your own thing just do it and that gave me the confidence seeing which she created in Paris in her apartment, I would say, or in her building.

31:07So I came back and did the same thing. I invited my family and friends. I had a folding table, dressed it up, and became a hit. And in my mind, I thought this was something I can be able to pull off every Sunday, and I realized I couldn't do that. So it became every month, and then it became every season. So they could at least look forward to something quarterly. But it originally started with just wine, and eventually I even got, I mean, everyone loves Fairway. This is New York City. There was a cheesemonger, a young woman there. She even did a wine and cheese, but we want to introduce people to maybe cheeses that people don't know as much, so education on that.

31:42And we just kept diving deep, pulling out different regions that I was super excited about tasting, maybe some of the regions that I actually visited that I wanted to show folks. and that was the premise it was more about how do I bring wine for lack of better words to the people in my case my people my community and the more the word got you know someone would bring a friend and I kept realizing now I'm having equal amount of like strangers in my actual apartment even though they may come from someone else you know I was like okay maybe we need to start moving out of my apartment and so that's when I moved into the like taking over restaurants and doing in the same experience.

32:20Yeah, I think after a certain level, you probably need more room to grow. And it seems like the food component became like much more considered and like a bigger part of it as you're moving into restaurant spaces as well. Correct. And that was always the intention is the same storytelling that I'm doing with wine. I want the chefs to be able to, in my house or even in the rented spaces that I have done as well, they were able to maybe cook differently than their day jobs. So I wanted them to fully express themselves too. Like, if I get to talk about wines from South Africa that I'm geeked out about and producers that maybe you won't find on your typical wine list, it was an opportunity for them to also do the same if they are usually cooking French cuisine or, you know, whatever.

33:03You know, they weren't the executive chefs at these restaurants, so they didn't create the menu, but they were able to express their own culture. So being able to have someone who's, you know, Creole background and be able to show that and be able to have fun and truly show up as ourselves fully in that experience. Absolutely. And I think reading your new book, One for the People, like that kind of ethos behind the series seems to be at play in the book. And I'm wondering if you could tell me about when you first started thinking about writing a book and how you kind of landed on what this book ultimately ended up being.

33:35When I met my agent, maybe that's a better way to start. I said, oh, yeah, I got a book. Of course. You know, that was very like an idea for a book. Yeah. Well, when an agent asks you if you want to write a book, you say yes. And then you figure out the idea later, maybe. In this case, I kind of I felt like I wanted to make sure there was, you know, the first thought was like, how do I make the communion a book? Right. How do I do this? How do I scale my mission? Right. And how do we make wine more accessible? and I felt like a lot of people we use this word we want to diversify wine we want to make wine more accessible we want to democratize wine you'll find a lot of sommeliers and and I say a lot I would say maybe I should say people black women you know brown women you know we are moving in that path when you look at underrepresented people in wine to like be vocal about our work But we all do it in different ways.

34:31So I recognize at that time that my dinner series, which then turned into my wine shop, was all an extension of how do I make it accessible through educating people to these underrepresented people, meaning producers, underrepresented regions, and bridge the gap between the basically the knowledge gap that we have in the market. I think we've been so focused, the training about wine, like almost transnationalism on European wine and culture, that we're not even celebrating the different wine and cultures that are fully, you know, whether it's Georgia, whether it's Chile, whether it's Australia.

35:17You know, I feel like there's a lot of regions outside of the ones that we always propped up. And that was where my focus became when I started doing wine dinners with Senegalese food pairings. Not only is the pairing allowing me to bring wine to the table, which some would call elevating, you know, a type of cuisine. In my case, it was just exploring, you know, something that hasn't been done or is not. You know, when you go to a Senegalese restaurant, maybe the wine list is not going to be, you know, they may have a red, they may have a white. It's not going to be the focus of the experience.

35:49And I may, one, be culturally because of, you know, religious reasons. But then also, if you're going to have red and white, let's make it good, you know. And I feel like when you go to certain restaurants that maybe that's the last. They just want to have a red option and have a white option because that's no one's told them the permission wasn't given to them. to, yeah, you should equally have, you can find wine that's the same price point that you can get from distributors that are, you know, lower to venture in great quality. You don't have to go with the cheap corporate big stuff just to check like, oh, we have a red here.

36:23And so I just, it was so many boxes that I was trying to check off with my dinner series and then my wine shop that I was like, okay, the book would be easiest for me to like map it out, I thought. And when I I presented it to my agent. It was like, okay, are we going to tell a story about, like, your life? I was like, is it? I was like, uh-oh. I don't think it's going over everyone's head. But once I developed the sample chapter and we, you know, sent it out to folks, I think they, the ones who got it, got it. And they were super excited about the book. So, yeah, I would almost say the book is like a travel wine book because you're highlighting all these different regions and not just the wine that grows there, but like the history of that country and the agriculture and the culture and then your own experience there.

37:13And then it has this kind of tasting pairing component. That was the hardest part, by the way. Coming up with the pairings or? Coming up with how to put all of my thoughts in a systematic way. way oh yeah where it looks like a book like you know if you get a wine pairing book it's not going to have all of those you know things you just mentioned history and pairings and all maps and pictures and everything so how do we consolidate this idea and still make you know make it digestible yeah because it is like a third encyclopedia and third like personal travel and then a third really fun pairing ideas did you handle it like did you write all of the kind of travel personal chapters first and then add in the pairings or how did you actually like make the book come together i recognize especially in the thick of it it was at times i was like okay i need to trans like send myself back to either that memory um of when i was traveling there or in the zone I ended up creating like playlists for each section.

38:22I'm like in Brazil. I was like, OK, so that's what we're eating tonight. Like I need the flavors of my time there. I want to hear samba in the background while I'm writing. Like I had to truly get in the zone. And so I took it, I would say, region by region so that I can already have the flavor, the vibes. I'm watching videos. I am trying to get myself physically, you know, back to Brazil as much as possible from my living room. And so I'm usually I was doing all of it at the same time. So I didn't break it apart because once I was locked into that, that even that memory or even for places that I have I have not traveled to.

39:04Once I started, it was in deep research and looking up things that I was got excited about. It was almost hard to kind of get me out like, you know, and sometimes I had to I wanted to go in order. like how you see the order of the book from Africa. And I may have a memory of something I had, you know, last night. And then I'm like, oh, now I'm excited to talk about Cuba. And now I'm like, let me just switch my whole zone to like that time when I was in Cuba. So that also was not the, it wasn't the best for my co-author, of course, when you're like, we're off track, girl. We got to get it back.

39:36We're still in Africa. Come on, get out of Cuba right now. And I was like, please give me some grace. I need to jump over here because I'm feeling, you know, I had Ty last night and right now I just want to I want to deep dive into that for a moment. So so I think I divided and conquered the book by like geography first. Yeah. Geography and vibes. That makes sense. Geography and vibes. Next time put the playlist in the book. I want them. I feel like that's what I'm in right now. Like I'm like, where am I for the book? And so where I want to be and what's my next travels? And so that's that's the zone I'm in now that it's finished, too.

40:08I'm like popping the playlist on and kind of just getting ready for these interviews. Oh, I love that. I guess for someone who's listening and they're curious about what kinds of places are covered in the book, can you maybe like broad strokes talk about the regions and the countries? So Africa, Latin America, South America, Asia. We have the U.S. as an African diaspora U.S. and that probably is the only section that is broken up by cuisine style instead of a city or state. So it goes soul food, low country, barbecue, etc. And I think I said Asia, but I'll say it again in case I forgot. Yeah, that's a great kind of bird's eye view summary of that.

40:55I want to talk about pairings because I think that's a big focus in the book. Can you maybe just on a basic level explain, I feel like there are kind of two different traditional approaches to wine pairing. Sure. I go about it as there's either compatible tastings or contrasting flavors. In the first section of the book, I didn't want to just jump into the storytelling. So that was also another like I had to raise my hand. I was like, oh, wait, I think we need to go and put some more bit of like just wine. I'm a wine educator at heart. Yeah, 101. Yeah, you don't even know who's going to get the book.

41:31So I felt like, again, back to accessibility, let's do that. And that was important for me just to, hey, I don't want to make this complicated for you. There's no rules to any of the things when you open this book. If you're like, I don't get it. Why does, you know, I want you to know that was my approach to it. And everyone's going to have a personal approach. maybe you and I, depending on our tolerance for heat and spice, maybe you will pick a wine that will be more compatible versus a wine that's going to be more contrasting flavors. That's why they're like, okay, this is hot. You should get something sweet.

42:02So I feel like that's, first I want everybody to know, take your own palate into consideration when you're actually picking a dish to go with a particular wine. So that was my approach. I try to keep it as simple as possible. Yeah. Is the hot, sweet thing why Riesling is like often one of the only wines that you can find when you're eating like African or Asian diaspora food? I haven't heard people talk about it with African food. And I think that's the reason why the Asian food comes up a lot. And I feel like I'm not a big fan of the term ethnic, you know, cuisine, but I do recognize that that's what we're told during my time when training as a sommelier to check the box of like, if this is the type of cuisine you work in with, you pick Riesling.

42:48And I was like, OK, ethnic food, literally the whole book is ethnic, technically. So does Riesling answer the question for every dish, you know? So those are the things that I, when you're studying anything, I think we all don't take anything as like the Bible. We should all question a little bit further. And maybe this industry has not been challenged as much in that way that I felt like I slowly started doing one with my dinner series by showing different expressions of how our food can be my culture, your culture, and, you know, can be expressed with different wines. And most folks really enjoy, you know, spicy food or flavorful, you know.

43:25So they don't want to mask it with something that's going to be sweet. So I was like, OK, this this one theory alone need to be debunked in a way that I think everyone can digest, too. Yeah. While we're talking about debunking theories, you write in the book that you think like what grows together goes together is not necessarily like the best possible approach to pairing. Can you unpack that? Yeah, I do agree with it. I'm someone who definitely loves a good truffle pizza with Nibbiolo. So don't get me wrong. Classic, yeah. Right. So I do feel like there is something to say that that is a valid answer.

44:01But and, right. So how else can we get folks to think about places that wine is not known for? Wine is not grown, you know, on its own or we don't have access maybe to their wines. Does that mean they don't deserve wine pairings? And I think that has been the default of what happens is that if you're if you're enjoying food just because now I'm in Brazil in my head still. If you're, you know, having a good dish of feijoada, Brazilian cuisine, very traditional, do you think that, OK, wine doesn't shouldn't pair well with this because wine is not grown there? So that's what I that was the kind of big question mark for me is, OK, how do we give space and grace to the fact that these other cuisines?

44:45There is probably a wine out there. It may not be from the country that it's from. And, you know, shout out to Brazilian bubbles. They do make amazing wine. But maybe a wine from a whole nother region, a different country, or even at colonial history, you'll see some shared or transported spices in dishes and flavors. So that's why the history part was very important. I didn't want to just throw out there about like how much Portugal while my time living in Portugal, I learned more about Brazilian food as well as Mozambican food and Angolan culture. But there is something to say about those dishes made its way back to Portugal as well as people have actually come back to Portugal and actually opened restaurants.

45:29And now I've had the pleasure without even visiting those countries to know those areas and spices and traditional foods through their, you know, I guess, colonial history and shared language, obviously, Portuguese. So I feel like that's kind of what I want. I call it cultural terroir, which is very important for me from that perspective. Like we do want to talk about soil and the weather and climate and the aspect of, you know, terroir, the way that we learn from Burgundy or which has been shared with us as folks studying wine, you know, where you are, a sense of place. But I also think whether you're, you know, as someone who lived in Italy for two years, I'm very much a person who drinks certain wines from Italy because I lived in Lazio and I love wines from, you know, southern Italy and enjoy the dishes that came out of Lazio and Campania.

46:25and as much as I will, you know, when I go to Florence, I try my best to enjoy that experience too. It's still considered almost like my second home since that's how I, you know, grew up in wine, was in Italy, right? So that's still a cultural connection for me and it's very regional when you're in Italy too, just like, you know, your soccer team. So that's what happens with wine and I feel like we didn't, we're not really taught that in traditional, I say, wine education. Yeah, I really like this idea of cultural towar. I think it makes so much sense, but it obviously is in a way that a lot of wine is being kind of set up.

47:01It makes me think about wine terminology. And I was curious what you think about the terms old world and new world when it comes to wine regions. I mean, I'm still for it. I think there is, I would say, doing this book also made me realize I'm questioning things in my own way of thinking. Like, oh, I've been helping this beast get fed. You know, like I've been adding to what's going on in the wine industry. This book allowed, you know, it was like I'm woke now to some terms that maybe we should change how we say this. I know I've seen articles about even using feminine terminology for certain grapes or wines.

47:45And so given wines gender, even in this case, newer versus old world, especially when I'm deep diving into wines of Georgia, I'm like, OK, so are we calling it the old, old world? are we you know yeah like the so I feel like there is something to say about I traditionally feel like that's the easiest way to kind of break the conversation up but I feel like maybe going more I like separating things like traditional natural like by the style or kind of the ethos of the wine versus saying a new world old world I do understand if you say old world people like if this is an old style old world styled pinot noir from Oregon I think the idea is that we're expecting it to to taste more similar to winemakers' way of make or techniques that they would do in Burgundy.

48:36So I think in short right now, since that's the lingo, that's part of our lexicon as wine professionals, that until we replace that, I feel like that is going to continually be used. But I do think we need to maybe come up with a new way of breaking down what's old world versus this new world because heritage and legacy is what clearly has made some regions more you know the prices you know the prices that they are in the market um you know we talk about bordeaux of course with the classification and how do we actually change that narrative when there's been wines grown in other places older than those regions um and yet they don't get the same type of you know, recognition, even though they're older than the history of the wines that we're saying, you know, these wines are so great because they're from, you know, this region and have all this history.

49:31Well, there's wines that predates that, that is, you know, half the price. So that's something where I'm challenging as well. And then the stories that has been untold about wine as well. Like, how do we actually highlight those? You know, when I was, my time being in Portugal, which is also interesting, was learning more about Madeira and the transatlantic trade and And the conversations that has been left kind of maybe still not told about the crossing of the slave trade in vessels and spices and everything else, just like sugar when it comes to making rum. So that's why you'll see rum in the book as well.

50:09There's this history that maybe we did not really, you know, we're not focused on as much. We're glorified. I love to talk about how Madeira is part of American history. Right. You know, the founding fathers of America, quote unquote founding, you know, they toast to the glass of Madeira, you know, at the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Right. That's that's part of, you know, Madeira is part of American history. But we don't really talk about maybe the not so celebrated side of Madeira and its story, too. So I became fascinated with my time living in Portugal about Madeira and its history and its connection to the American story and more particularly African-American stories as well.

50:52Most likely the winemakers who are clearly in the estufas, which is the oven that is cooking and baking the proper temperature of the wine to serve. And even the sommeliers who are serving are the black hands who were actually doing the work. And we have that as part of the history as well. And Virginia, you know, the person tended to the vineyards, the vineyard manager, as we would call them today, that title, were the enslaved people who were on the property. But we don't get credit for that. So I feel like a lot of black people don't see ourselves in wine, but we don't recognize that we are part of the American wine history as well.

51:35And that should be celebrated. So that was a long way to get back there. But it's all very important to understand culturally the context of how wine may play a role and what goes together, grows together. It's more about what history connects as well. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's so important to be kind of tracing that history. And you can even look at the fact that South Africa is a growing region of wine. How did those vines get there? Who brought them there? What's the history behind that? When I was reading the South Africa section in the book, I thought it was really interesting the way you were writing about how the boycott against apartheid in South Africa was impacting the kind of wine industry, I guess is the right word, in South Africa trade.

52:14And then the way that it was kind of protected as a legacy moving out of that. When you are looking at like South African wine, I guess like what excites you about that region and what kinds of winemakers do you especially like enjoy supporting? Yeah, Aslina comes to mind immediately. Aslina is the producer, the wine producer name. The actual winemaker is Niziki. It's named after her grandmother. I think her story, you know, getting a scholarship and going to University of Stellenbosch and being able to bring her wines to the world through the distributor wines for the world. Shout out to them for bringing it to life, you know, her project to life for us here in the U.S.

52:57to be able to enjoy. This one, this is someone who is like trained and have done years working underneath another wine label and have earned her dues. But, you know, these are not the folks that we learn about when we talk about, you know, renowned producers. And so she's probably one of my go-to example. There are a lot more winemakers that are being more recognized here in the U.S. because it's all about getting the wines to the countries that are talking about the wines. So I feel like, you know, America ends up being the squeaky wheel, which is, you know, in a good way, be able to put them on a map here, which may open the doors for them in other countries as well.

53:38So, yeah, I feel like South African wines, I'm super excited about the fact that they already have a lot of system in place where black people are already, you know, at schools, learning programs. And I hope there's a rise of more African winemakers and African sommeliers in South Africa. I feel like that would be where everything is happening. Look, I put my money on them. I'm not trying to say that U.S. We don't have the hope. I think that it's just harder every day just to make things happen here. And as an entrepreneur, I think that the folks who are kind of making their way up is the folks that are scaling bigger.

54:21So if you are a black-owned wine producer, in order to truly be able to make this your thing, not be an engineer part-time, et cetera, It truly is, you know, by going to be able to scale it quickly. In their case, I feel like they can still be able to grow the business, work, you know, be in a wine country. And maybe there's some fine line. And again, I haven't worked with anybody directly there in South Africa. So I'm more than happy to really learn more about how the trajectory of bringing it to like a full life cycle of the wine and a brand. But I do see there's a lot of hope and interest in South African wine today, which means people are naturally going to South African wine thinking that a African, black African person had something to do with making this wine.

55:08Not understanding much about the history and that this person could be Afrikaans or Dutch heritage, you know. So they're not really thinking about that. They're like, oh, I think I'm supporting a black brand actually by buying this South African wine. And that's just lack of awareness about the history. And again, maybe not traveling there to know that South Africa actually is not, you know, run by as many black people as we would like. Yeah, absolutely. I think it is interesting also to think about what you're saying about the infrastructure being in place to allow winemakers to scale and then reach that kind of level of success.

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57:08Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. It makes me think a little bit about something I think is interesting in the book is that in addition to having all these great wine suggestions and wine pairings, you're also kind of highlighting the other drinks that would traditionally be paired with food in these places. And I was curious if you always wanted to include non-wine beverages in your wine book or how you kind of, you know, brought in that element, because I feel like it is such a cool kind of contextual there.

57:45Thank you for that question. The best way I can explain is that I didn't want to wine wash cultures. And I guess you heard it here first. I have not, you know, I think at the end of the day, as I continue to talk about wine from a sommelier's perspective, a wine entrepreneur perspective, and now a wine book author perspective, these are cultures that are not known for their wine. So how do I still support what they are great at? If they are known for rum, let's talk about the rum that they're making for agave spirits. Let's give people so sip the culture is what you're referring to is a section you can find in a lot of the countries that I think most people know tequila is from Mexico, but I don't know.

58:34And so that was something I was like, I don't want that to go over people's heads, even though they're making great wine in Mexico. Let's also take this opportunity to get people to be excited about the different agave spirits that I was able to enjoy when I was brought to Guadalajara and on a trip to learn more about tequila and about the agave spirits with Fortaleza tequila. So I was able to have now more of the same way I did with wine. I was having basically a vineyard like experience at this. I'm always agaves behind me and learning about the production of, you know, agave spirits. And I feel like that wasn't originally part of why, you know, what I was going to include in the book.

59:19But the more experiences like that that I had, I started recognizing this would it would be remiss not to even mention sake, tea, even beer, when they're a big part of how people drink culturally. I didn't want folks to fly into a certain country and go, OK, where's your wine? Because, you know, Charles said this taco will go great with this, you know. and without respecting those, you know, erasing the beverage culture of that particular country. You're dropping so many good terms today. Wine wash is like something that's going to stick with me for a long time. And I feel like it also shows the cultural palette for beverages and drinking that then wine also exists.

59:59And so it almost gives more insight. Do you think that people can ask you a question? Yeah. I was like, do you think that would be helpful for the industry at large to truly understand and saying that, oh, all Americans drink sweet wine, right? That's what was, you know, in the past. If you start understanding that, OK, if this is the drink of choice by Mexicans at large, then maybe making wines that if you want to sell in that area, that was an excuse to bring there. If their palate is going to be more, let's say, agave driven, you know, that's what they're looking for. So then now we can tailor not just making everything sweet, but also understanding the palate of like when they're drinking and when they're imbibing, this is what they're looking for.

1:00:39So if you're making a wine for that actual, you know, that group of people, that demographic, we know now better how to serve them. Yeah, I think it's nice on one hand to know like the cultural context so that like you can be understanding like why people have certain flavor preferences. But at the same time, I don't think you only want to be bringing stuff that you already think people are going to like because then you're kind of boxing people into one kind of thing. You know, just because there's a certain tendency to like a certain flavor doesn't mean that you can't try something different and then enjoy that and be kind of like broadening the, I don't know, the paint box of flavors that people have to play with.

1:01:17I feel like that's what, since I work with European wines, and when they are thinking about importing their wines, and Spain is probably the easiest to think about, they have all the colonial history within language that they could connect with Puerto Rico. So when I'm in Puerto Rico, there's a lot of Spanish wines on the list. They can read the labels. It's very easy, right? Same thing, obviously, when you're in Brazil, you're going to see a lot of Portuguese wines for that same reason. It's easy for them to digest the language. So that barrier for, let's say, Portuguese wines in America is end up being a benefit for them in a country like Brazil.

1:01:55Right. So then if their palate is geared towards certain spicy foods and or certain beverages like Cachaca, you know, maybe if you're like, OK, out of all my SKUs, when I'm making a connection on importing wines there, these three. Right. So it helps make a more informed decision when you're a small winemaker in Portugal. trying to send your wines to Brazil. You don't send everything. These folks are going to, you know, they're going to eat feijoada. They like drinking these type of drinks. So maybe these three is going to be the ones that's going to actually like do well. And then now you can introduce them to other wines later.

1:02:31So I'm just having like a think tank session with you right now. I think it makes a lot of sense. It's like targeted because you're shipping things, you know, over the ocean. It's a high investment in that. And you don't want to send something that you think no one is going to like. I guess I just feel like here in the U.S., we eat so many different kinds of things. There are so many different kinds of people here. In New York. Let's just say New York. In New York City. That I think, you know, I want to try everything. Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about the recipes in the book. Okay. Because I think that you have some really great contributors for the recipes.

1:03:04How did you kind of think about including, like, proper food recipes in this book and what kinds of recipes are in it? I think I got overwhelmed at first because I realized maybe it was a much bigger axe than I thought. I was every country, every—and I was like, okay, maybe for like a few within each region. I was like, let's not go crazy. And that was really how the concept came about. It was like, is there going to be a photo component to the book that wasn't just, you know, me, but literally, you know, of the wine itself? How are we going to show that? And I feel like pairing books, that is something that is traditional in wine, pairing books that I looked at, wine and food books, et cetera.

1:03:49So I was like, OK, what's going to be important is that the dishes we got to get a dish that I'm not coming up with recipes. I'm not the chef. So that's already been vetted and checked or at least from folks that people already respect. And so this great idea of going to folks who've already had authored cookbooks and had, you know, something to say about their region, their cultural connection was important for me. And you may have seen also a sprinkle of cocktails in there, too. But it was very important for me to have that visually. I think that was probably, you know, a check for or nod to a traditional winepairing book.

1:04:27Yeah, also, it's a great contributor. Like lots of people have been on the podcast before, Hawassan, people like that. And I think the recipes, it almost is like if you haven't tried that kind of food before and you want to try to like make something at home and then get a bottle to go with it, it's such a fun like activity for the evening. Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, I mean, I was I owned a wine shop while writing this book. The whole thing is like, OK, I want people to get this bottle from my shop, from a shop near you, and then be able to like remove the excuse that you don't live in New York City, as you mentioned, and have access to Ethiopian or Somalian food.

1:05:05And so, you know, Howard's recipe ends up being a gateway maybe to a new style of cuisine for you. I didn't know it was going to be a boom right now for that. I think I was at a PsalmCon conference and they said the uptick of interest in diverse cuisines at fine dining. I was like, oh, so the book is the perfect timing that people are more interested in generation, I guess, Z is more interested in actually having diverse dining experiences. And so that's the new wave. So that's great, whether it's fast casual or, you know, whether it's the Naya, N-A-Y-A. Oh, yeah, like the bowl. The bowl. Yeah, so that's like a fast casual.

1:05:54But maybe it's from cuisines that people wouldn't normally see in like a fast casual dining. And even near me, there is a fast casual like bowl restaurant that is of West African food. So there's a taranga. Yeah, well. Or a field trip. There's a bunch of them. So, well, there is a bunch of them, yes, in Harlem. Taranga is now closed, unfortunately, in Harlem. But yes, that is a great example. Oh, no. Yeah, yeah. Do they still have a location? I know. I feel like I love that place. I know. Shout out to Chef Pierre. His recipe for jollof is in the book as well. You were very diplomatic. You did multiple jollof approaches.

1:06:34I don't want no smoke. Yeah. I just, it's not a, I don't want to fight. It's a losing game. You don't want to get involved. And because I'm not from, you know, any of these countries, I thought it was like, how do I keep the Jollof smoke off my back, but still entertain folks to understand how can we approach the war at large? And I made it feel like, you know, the same way we did with wine. I don't know. No, I thought it was beautiful. It was very, you have like three different pairings for Nigerian, Ghanaian and Senegalese Jollof. That's like going the extra mile, you know? I don't know. I hope it works out.

1:07:11Thank you. Thank you. I was like, I hope they all feel, like, loved, you know, at the end of the day. You saw all of them and, like, the differences. And had a different wine for each. So I feel like to see somebody is to love them. I want to close today by playing a rapid fire game with you. So I'm going to make you play some favorites. Okay. Okay. Your favorite cookbook right now. I feel like you just said Taranga. I have that on my heart right now. So Taranga definitely is one of my top fives of all time. So your most like used or read wine book, to be honest, is probably Wine Folly. Yeah, I feel like even all my staff, I tell them, hey, you don't have to get into the more headier books with all the words.

1:07:54Yeah, here's this one have graphics and easy to digest. She has the Magnum edition. And that's the, you know, I always recommend that, folks. Yeah. Your favorite bakery? Bakery? Do I go Levine? For cookies? Oh, those are good cookies. Oh, my goodness. That was the first thing that came to my mom just now. That's classic. I'm a big chocolate chip cookie person. Can I ask you what you would pair with a thick chocolate chip cookie? Oh, I don't know. Depends on the day. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. And I feel like when I'm usually having chocolate chip cookies, I'm just like devouring. There's not enough time to like savor.

1:08:32Yeah. But I would say, and if I could throw a dessert out here that's not like I don't get it from bakery because, you know, we're close to the holiday season. is my aunt's sweet potato pie. And so I'm obsessed with that and sauterne. So I'm always like, okay, this is my moment. I've earned it. It's Thanksgiving. I don't make the pie, but I've made everything else happen. So I try to pull out the sauterne and have a moment. That's a great, I'm going to keep that pairing in mind for my Thanksgiving. A restaurant whose wine list you love? Haven Mar, Tatiana. You know, those are places where I feel like the just as diverse as the people are.

1:09:11So is the wineless. And so I respect that. I mean, we're near Iris as well, since it's they have Turkish wine. They have wines from Georgia. You know, I love the idea of going to a restaurant. No shade. I love a good, you know, burgundy, but I don't want that to be 90 percent of my wine list, you know, especially when I'm in a place that is not French. You know, so I do love being able to see wines from diverse cultures. A favorite wine bar? Like a bian? Love. Your go-to bottle shop? Oh, shout out to the winery. I guess that's my first wine job, so I'm going to always cherish them. Yeah, you brought the book there.

1:09:55Have they seen it? I don't know. You know what? I ran into Eric the other day, so I need to officially, like, sign it and gift him one. Yeah, the full thing. And like give him all the love in it. Yeah. Yeah. So the winery on 116th Street and 8th Avenue. Your go-to bodega snack?

1:10:17Snack? Oh, could it be like candy? Mm-hmm. Sour powers. You know the sour straws? Yeah. They were called sour powers when I was little. Yeah, no, I know exactly. I can picture it in my head. And they weren't served in individual packs like they are now, the sour straws they were in this large container and then the person had to crack it open and yes individually put them in a brown bag and they were like 10 cents or something like that each and we were like i want what like here's all the change in my wallet as a kid and like give me as money as this can afford me and that was me and my me and my brother that's like a nostalgic thing we do now like whenever i see the sour straws and like these random flavors now they got like grapefruit and all his other passion fruit that got real fancy these days.

1:11:06So I always buy a pack for him. And you know what? Shout out to White Tic Tacs. You will see me any day with a big box of White Tic Tacs. My father used to say, you and your brother are going to have the best breath in all of New York City, the way you down Tic Tacs. So yes, I'm always, you know, I guess that's going to be my church lady purse, you know, candy as an old lady too. But those two are like the candies of choice from my neighborhood corner store when I was growing up. Yeah. You're probably the only person on the podcast who said shout out to white Tic Tacs before, but get the sponsorship.

1:11:41Oh, my goodness. They are, you know, they are part of my childhood at this point. I love that. Your favorite Harlem restaurant? I know it's supposed to be rapid fire. It's okay. It's a big question. Well, okay, let me just go through. We said Tarango already, which is close, but go to Afrikan, which is West African cuisine. go to Melba for soul food. Who else can I shout out? I mean, to be honest, I used to go to Floradita, which is, you know, Cuban slash Dominican, et cetera. And so I feel like in Harlem, I'm always eating more casually, casual dining. I'm not usually seated and having a whole moment, but that's, we're like true New Yorkers.

1:12:21We're the working class New Yorkers. We're too busy. I feel like when I go to brunch, if it's not Melba's, it's something on 8th Avenue, which is where I lived last. And so I'm always buzzing around 8th Avenue after church, going to get some soul food from like Boulevard Bistro. And now I'm here for the vibes. And so I can run into Sherry Shepard. She's always out there, you know, brunching too. But my, the ultimate, like if you know you're in Harlem or you're talking to somebody from Harlem, if they are mentioning their favorite fish fry place, I feel like people don't recognize that we're like slightly obsessed with fish and chip.

1:12:57and as New Yorkers and more specifically as folks in Harlem. Like we have one at each family has like this is our spot. And even within my family, we may have to make two trips depending on who's in the house because this one likes the fries from that place. But this one likes the fried shrimp from that place. It's a whole thing. So this is, you know, you heard it here first. My favorite place is a hole in the wall spot that only takes cash and it's called Devon's. And who is the I'm trying to think of Anthony Hamilton, the R &B neo soul singer in his like MTV interview one day. He went to another fish and chip place that's like two corners away from it.

1:13:45And that one is all every is always packed now because it's right next to the actual train station. and so I always know when people say it I'm like they must have got that from like tv they don't you know um but I feel like when you know you know and and you're in Harlem we definitely have our particular ones that may be in our neighborhood or we'll be willing to go to a fish market I don't know if you know there's like fish markets that's open to like two in the morning in Harlem for you to get fried fish or steamed or whatever and yeah I feel like that's sour, personal, like, cultural thing, if you know.

1:14:18Yeah, I love that. Okay, final question. A fictional food scene, like, from a book or a movie or something made up that you wish you could eat in real life? Eat or drink in real life? Wait, wait, one that's actually in a movie? It could be, like, from a movie or a TV show or a book or a children's book, but you wish you could somehow eat it. So, Tim B. Locke, she wrote From Scratch, which was adapted, that's the word, adapted into the From Scratch Netflix series, right? Sound like you're a rom-com girl, so I'm sure you've seen it. But in the book, there's actually recipes like after each chapter.

1:14:55So to be honest, I feel like I wish I was like having, there's this connection of us both being expats in Italy and falling in love in Italy. That all like was real for me too. So very much, I feel like she's a kindred sister of mine as well. And also now a sorority sister of mine. So I appreciate that love. But she has all these dishes that every time when I was reading the book, I was like, oh, you know, bring me back to Italy right now. I want to have all these things. And I wasn't lucky enough to fall in love with a chef. But, you know, so I feel like all of the recipes in the From Scratch, the book version, I'm down for.

1:15:32I think that's a great answer. And thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been so much fun. Oh, thanks for having me.

1:15:42This is Taste is hosted and produced by Matt Rodbard and me, Eliza Abarbanel. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell, logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste. Thank you.