687: Peak Private Label on Food Writers Talking About Food Writing with Maggie Hoffman

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1:00And I was like, this is my place. Like these people who have just this obsession with cookbooks. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard. We are back with food writers talking about food writing. I have Maggie Hoffman in the studio. Welcome. It's so good to see you. It's great to see you. This is a long time coming. I'm a huge fan of your work and you personally. And you have an amazing career in food media and in writing. you're independent now. We'll talk about your sub stack. The sub stack of it all. Great, great. We went off mic and we prepped a little. We got some stuff coming. We got some stuff coming.

1:39I always like to start this special episode. Is there a meal that you've had recently in a restaurant that you want to talk about? Yes. We took my dad out for his birthday this weekend and we went to Bridges with a friend. And we'd had a great first meal there a while back. And, you know, it wasn't a fluke. We had a great meal. The kind of meal where my father looked at me and said, this is about as good as food gets. Oh, wow. Which was, you know, they've really hit their stride. You know, the sardine is back. You know, over the summer they were doing like this very thin toast with this like marinated pepper, aioli, and a cured mackerel, which was incredible.

2:25But now it's like a cured sardine and it's beautiful. And we had, I am not an espresso martini drinker. I'm too old. But we had the greatest espresso martini I've ever had. Was there a plan in a spin? It was made with a German hazelnut gin, Nonino Amaro, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cointreau and velvet falernum, which you know is like spiced. So what does it have to do with an espresso martini? I think it had either espresso. The server said the espresso liqueur from 4th Ave. But then later when I was like, I need the recipe. Like, we're really doing this. Then he said espresso. So I don't know if it was espresso or the 4th Ave espresso liqueur.

3:09I'm going to try both. I want to make a decaf version. Yeah, I mean, that's my biggest issue with the martini. Can't do it. It's tough. But you can get decaf comatier pods. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And those are great in a cocktail. So I'm going to try because this was fun. And the Hazel Mudge Inn, you can get it. I think it's Zebra Rovine. It imports it. So for those who don't know Maggie, Maggie writes books about cocktails, among many other things. In a previous life. And is such a clairvoyant about drinking culture. But I didn't really prep for any big drinking talk. So let's put a pin in that and have you back.

3:42Because I'm just so curious about the evolution of this bar world we live in. because it's different and changing. We'll put a pin in it. Let's do it. My place, I was just in Las Vegas, and I was staying at the Aria, and I went to the Dintai Fung location there. And I've been to Dintai Fung, and I've enjoyed my meals. This was on a different level. You know, this is the 50-year-old Taiwanese dumpling house of great acclaim. There's one in Midtown Manhattan now. and um i was reading that they they're serving 10 000 dumplings a day at this location and honestly um mine were pretty good my my shalom bao was was not the best i've ever had in my life and i think with with this with this acclaim comes huge expectations and didn't quite meet it um i liked that you could watch the dumplings being made it was behind glass kind of awkward I guess, but like also kind of cool to see the actual dumpling making.

4:45But for me, the highlights were the vegetable dishes. I had these beans, you know, they were, they were wok, they were fast beans. And I think when you can get, you know, beans transformed into a wok style bean with, you know, clearly a perfect amount of seasoning, they know how to do it, they do it a thousand times a day. Maybe a little MSG, you know, dotting the eye. And I like the wood ear mushrooms. I I had really vinegary wood hair mushrooms, and they were in season. And thank you very much, Dintai Fung, for giving me some great vegetarian food. Love it. So, Maggie, before we get to the food writing, I want to hear a little bit about your career.

5:23You know, you started working at Food Media in 2009 with Stop Serious Eats and Epicurious. I think I first got to know you when you were part of that Serious Eats crew, which at the time was doing a lot of, like, kind of what they're doing now, which is, like, front-facing cam work. Like I remember, you know, going to those galleries on every Friday or whatever it was. I remember being like, this is cool. I got to know all of you before, this is like before Instagram. Yeah. What was that era like for you? I'm trying to remember in my head, in my head, we didn't have scheduling of blog posts. And so I used to, and I don't know if we actually didn't or if I was just nervous to do it, just wanted to make sure it went up.

6:04But I know that what I did is in my studio apartment on St. Mark's Place, I woke up and at 7.30 a.m. every morning, I published the first post of the day. It was that era. And it was such a creative time. You know, Kenji and I started on the same day. There was Robin Lee, Carrie Jones, Aaron Zimmer. It was like a bunch of really cool people. And so much excitement about food, obsession about food, really trying, you know, all the different ways to do things. But it was also definitely scrappy. Like we just had like a table in the corner and we would take pictures and stuff. And it was, you know, it wasn't my first job.

6:43I had been in book publishing before that. And it felt like such an exciting moment to build things. So I joined them to build a drinks section and then ended up being managing editor of the site after I had left New York. and we worked really, really hard in those days. It's obvious and I love all those names. That's like a blast from the past for me. You know, Aaron and Carrie, I haven't seen those folks in years and it was a special time. You know, you were the first to really capture that blog era but also doing food in a real way with bench testing and real experimentation and recipe development and really standing behind recipes.

7:33I mean, did you feel like this could never end at that point? Or did you feel like in the moment into 2010 that this was a real era and maybe not sustainable? It felt super exciting at the beginning. This was the early moment of so much of that stuff. And, you know, especially because I came on and was sort of like, we got to do drinks. drinks is exciting right now. And that was sort of in those early days of those bars and all those things. And I think I maybe got old. I mean, truly, I had a child and it was harder to juggle in that time. And I sort of realized like I need to be a little less on call.

8:19And of course, you know, the company has been sold multiple times since that. And, you know, it was just like a really exciting time and then everyone moved on to new things but it was my first experience like really um just throwing experiments at the wall see what works it wasn't extremely data driven um it wasn't seo driven that was sort of before all of that we would talk about like what worked this week and what didn't but it wasn't you know compared to the experience of going to condé nast and having all of these really smart people working in data analytics and all these different things uh that was such a different era it's so interesting that you lived both both lives because i think like it was more instinctual at serious eats and you were looking at like real-time traffic results while assigning the next week's slate of stories right i remember there was sort of a sense of like oh we figured this out like i remember saying to carrie like oh yeah like we discovered that like you got a view in those days for like every part of a slideshow.

9:22So we were like, yeah, we're just going to like interview chefs and have each answer be part of the slideshow. And we've won the internet. Well, of course that didn't. I started working in 2007 at a website, a long forgotten one that did a lot of slideshows. And I remember like loading up like 180 photo slideshows. What an era. You move on to Condé Nast, working Epicurious. And And, you know, you mentioned the data-driven element of it. And you clearly did have like a lineup of stories there. I want to hear about your work there, but also just reflecting on both jobs. I mean, there's like instinct and then there's gaming the system through SEO.

10:04I think that those are two models. Do you have a preference of the two? Well, I will say before I got to Condé, I had this little interim moment where I was freelance. I wrote two books for 10 Speed Press. Shouts. And I was working at the Chronicle. I had a column at the Chronicle reviewing bars. But I really, you know, my second book was about batch cocktails for entertaining. And it was really about, like, when you have people over, you want to actually spend time with them. And I think at that moment, I was leaning more and more into food and feeling like hosting was something that really was important to me.

10:41And not just having cocktails, but also food. And I missed working as an editor. You know, people sort of assume that people do all the roles in the world of food media. And I have. And I write. And that is, of course, important to me. But also, like, editing is a very particular role that I missed so much. And so I came back to New York on my book tour, did some things. Like, I think I was here recording for the Taste podcast. And I was like, oh, what if we just came back to New York? And when we decided to do that, I was at IACP. I met David Tamarkin. He was like, I'm looking for a senior editor.

11:19I said, I've done that job before. Let's do this. And we made it happen. You made it happen. And I was so excited to walk into Condé Nast and sort of open office, a bunch of desks, and people had towers of cookbooks piled up on their desks, like literally like hiding as high as the computer monitors. And I was like, this is my place. Like these people who have just this obsession with cookbooks. It was a different era, right? Like media had changed and you were able to learn a lot more, you know, a deeper sense of what are people reading and all of that. And at some level, you act on that information.

12:06And at another level, it's still your gut. It's more like editing traditionally and you are going off of your experience and your instincts and what you're seeing in the world to assign the stories. And we spent a lot of time, you know, looking at books that were coming out and trying to identify what was exciting. You know, like what was the hook that was going to get people excited about this book? What was the one trick that was surprising? and so it really deepened my obsession with cookbooks where at Series Eats it had been much more about whatever was being developed in-house and I also got to build at Condé Nast in the way that I had built at Series Eats you know at Series Eats I built this drink section and then I was running the whole thing at Condé Nast we built this app which was really exciting to sort of shift into this totally different design project and working with all these people who do design and product design.

13:02And so there's a lot to learn there. But, you know, as it got on, it was sort of like, well, I built this thing for Conde Nast. I built this thing for Siri Seeds. None of it paid off for me. What if I built something for myself? Yeah, right. You said it well. And one more question about Epi. I mean, it's kind of no longer a thing. I mean, I know it's a brand. But, I mean, was that like a failure by the ad side, the business side, to kind of use this great editorial because it really was great and not monetize it properly? I know you have time to reflect on this. It's been a couple of years. I don't know that much about how much monetizing was happening.

13:43Right. It was all a little opaque. I got to do some cool projects. Like we did this like interactive drinks cabinet where you clicked on different ingredients and you got to get the recipes from the site based on what you had. And that was really fun. And they sold it. It was someone sponsored. So there were really cool things. You know, I have a theory. I have a theory. Yeah, sure. I just read the book, the recent Condé Nast book. Yeah, I actually read that as well. I read that really quickly because I loved it. Really interesting. And maybe my takeaway, I mean, I think my takeaway was that some of these projects never were big moneymakers, right?

14:27And maybe, you know, I don't know. I will say that it's really unfortunate to have an amazing archive and not support it enough that they can have a functional website and not support it enough that they can have editors and not support people enough that they're not working, you know, working around the clock. And so when I started, there was a really big team and it got smaller and smaller and smaller. And that was just mentally so difficult. And the people there are really smart. Oh, for sure. And the people I worked with were amazing. I worked with an incredible group of people. And, you know, it's just unfortunate to see everybody sort of scatter.

15:14Yeah. You know, love to our friends at Condé and BA. I mean, I'm pulling hard for BA, and I really hope that when things settle, you know, we can have a healthy food media landscape and a place like BA and maybe Epic can come back in some form. I think the lesson here, I mean, for any young editors, writers listening is like try to find out about the business plan. I know it's not as easy when you have this massive company, and I'm not blaming you by any means. you've probably tried, but it's like you should try to figure out how things are being money is being made. And, you know, it goes into that church and state conversation.

15:49But I think we're post that, obviously. And if you want to be a working journalist, you should kind of know how your company is making money and perhaps how you can help in a way that keeps your work true. And even if you do help, you know, I think in my career, there have sort of just been these amazing opportunities to work with amazing people. And maybe it's not forever. Yeah. And that's just just sort of how it goes. Well, we have to move on. You said it up well about, you know, betting on yourself. And you really did that. From February 20th to March 7th, dive into Canada's biggest culinary festival, Montreal en Lumière, an exclusive partnership with the McCord Stewart Museum and its exhibition On the Menu Montreal, a restaurant story.

16:37The 2026 festival invites food lovers on a flavorful journey through time. Montreal's top restaurateurs will reimagine 65 years of the city's iconic astronomy, crafting inventive, nostalgia-inspired dishes with a modern twist. Prepare your palate. World-renowned chefs, including several Michelin-starred talents, will team up with over 80 of Montreal's finest local chefs to create unforgettable, one-of-a-kind menus. The full program is available at montrealonlumiere.com. presented by Lotto Quebec in collaboration with National Bank. Hi there, it's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you.

17:20Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on three things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible. That's the This Is Taste listener survey, link in our show notes. This episode is brought to you by Aura Frames. If you're one of those last-minute shoppers, you might know the feeling. Ideas are running low, and the clock is ticking. Here's a fun idea, Aura Frames.

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19:17And I see the work and I just respect the hell out of it. You're doing great work. You're interviewing cookbook authors, many who appear here as well, and having very different conversations. And I appreciate that. You're also publishing recipes. And I think, Maggie, tell me about the sub stack of it all, like how you as a single operator of this publication are making it work. And what are you thinking about for 26? Like, you know, in terms of revenue, in terms of just growing it? Well, it's a lot. But I do think, I mean, this is part of the thing. Being able to see sort of how we grew at Condé was amazing training to build something for myself.

19:57and it would be so much easier to have a corporate sponsor just like run a podcast for you, run a website for you, but that's not the situation that I was in. And so the question was like, how can this be a whole ecosystem? So somebody comes on the show each week and they talk about their book, but they also talk about what they really cook at home, what they cook at home when they're exhausted, where they look for inspiration, And it sort of kicked off from, I wrote a story for Epi about burnout and burnout in the kitchen. And I've been thinking a lot about, I mean, I don't know if like, are we more burnout now than people were decades ago?

20:41I don't know, but it feels like it sometimes. And so how do you as a human connect to, I think a lot of people cook for fun and can lose that when they feel too busy, too stressed, like all those things. and cooking becomes difficult, it becomes a chore, or you just don't do it. And so one of my questions was sort of like, how can we as people like tap back into cooking, feeling exciting, inspiring, meditative, all of those things. And that's sort of the core question of this. And so I always ask people to come with their, like the cookbooks that inspire them. And sometimes it's some real deep cuts, which is fun.

21:24And we put them all together on this list. So they come in, we talk about what they like to cook and where they find inspiration. And we just talk about like real life. And, you know, there have been a bunch of books in this last year that tackle this. Like Mirasota's book, Dinner, really gets into this moment of like just extreme burnout. And how do you find yourself back to your craving? Yeah, yeah.

22:24told me they were taking notes on the show. And I was like, no, no, no, no. No, it's your job. Do the show notes. We do that for you. So the newsletter has those like, oh, this is this person I like on YouTube. And oh, this is this book I love. So that all comes in the newsletter with a full recipe from the book and a chance to win that book that week. So I give away a book every week, which is fun. And so that's why it's worth it to do both. It's worth it to listen. It's worth it to do the newsletter. And then, you know, I'm playing around on Substack. When I quit at Condé, I sort of was like, I am getting off this hamster wheel and I'm going to miss what happens next in media.

23:07And like once I caught my breath, I was like, wait, this is what happens next in media. Like what's happening is, and not just Substack, everywhere, Patreon, all the different places, so many people are building their own flywheel of a business. So one of the things that's fun, there's a lot of complaints about Substack becoming a social media platform. Yeah, totally. You see it all the time. It's with the notes in particular. People are mad about this and like, sure, be mad. Like it's less pure in many ways. But also what I love is I am not a photographer. I'm a lot of things. I'm a digital strategist.

23:51I'm a writer. I'm an editor. I am not a photographer. So the idea that we could, you know, in however many years after Twitter, that we could have a mostly words-based social media platform is fine with me. Yeah, no, I agree. It's like why I live Subsec as well. It's still very much, even though they're doing like streams and interviews live and all that stuff, they still really are text-based. And I think, I agree with you, Notes is a really nice product and I use it myself. And if you get a new audience that way, there's definitely like a vibe that isn't as crazy as like Blue Sky or Threads.

24:29threads. So something I do on there is just like my, you know, totally regular old everyday what I'm actually eating for dinner that night. I started posting them a while ago. People tell me that they see it and then cook that thing. People are just tired of coming up with ideas. The thinking part of cooking. It's not that people don't want to cook. It's not that they don't want to chop an onion. It's that the thinking is exhausting, the mental load. And so this is another way besides the show, besides the recipes, I just post what I'm cooking. Sometimes I post like here are five things you could do this weekend to make your week better.

25:09And that seems to be helpful to people. Yeah, I love it. And I love that you are a photographer. In the notes section, you're doing some photos there. I want to ask you about 26 though, like when you're looking out your business, and this is a business, you know, obviously subscriptions is probably your primary revenue stream. So not, you're not, you know, shaking your head. Tell me then, what's the business model then? What is the business model? Well, I want everyone to listen to the show. The show is free. I want everyone to get the recipes. You get the recipes for free. I do have some paid subscribers who are supporting the show, and what they get is that is the easiest way to win a book every week.

25:52And a couple times a year, I do a big giveaway. I'll do a big one for December that has like a beautiful Dutch oven and all these books and all this pantry stuff, hot sauces, all these things. The easiest way to enter to win those is to be a paid subscriber. A handful of people do it and I love them. Thank you. There is another way to enter those things as well, which is to call me and leave a voice memo telling me what is in your freezer, in your pantry and your fridge and then I play those on the end of the show so I need those so that's the other way to enter that is a very small percentage of my business um and uh I sell like old school ads I sell podcast ads I sell uh ads in the newsletter so there's one spot in the newsletter that has a word from our sponsor and a picture and a link and I like to work with food businesses that I love.

26:44Yeah. So it's so exciting to have people who I've known for, you know, decades in this food business be like, actually, yeah, like my listeners are doing the grocery shopping. My listeners are making decisions about cookware. And so it's, you know, is it the hugest audience ever? No, but it is an engaged audience. I mean, size doesn't matter at all. Like we're post scale, obviously. These are the people who make these decisions. Yeah. And so often what they want is, you know, Brooklyn Deli's starter sauces. They're so good. I use them. I'm so pumped that they're going to do ads on the show. So that is actually the business.

27:23And it's also like 50 % of my time. Yeah. I am doing it all on my own. So I think the dream is to grow in a bunch of different new directions. I want to do as many shows as I possibly can. But each show is the interview. You see this writing of the newsletter, all those things. So as many of those as I can. I do that totally on my own. And is there a world where I hire someone to help with a little bit of the social media? Or is there a world where I hire someone to help with the ad sales maybe someday? Very, very exciting. You never know. Very, very exciting. I mean, I love it because you're highlighting cookbook authors, and I love them as much as you.

28:04So first off, that's great. But also, going ads supported is totally smart. Like you want to build the audience over the subscribers. That's one path that I think many have seen success with. And it's so many. I mean, I log it in like various systems, but most of these people are buying like four ads, you know. They're small. So it's like I feel it's a little scary because, of course, you're hoping that these companies succeed and want to get the word out, right? But it's like a hundred different companies. So it's quite diversified. Well, Maggie, I will be following the dinner plan and linking to it in the show notes.

28:44You should check it out. Let's talk about some food writing. How about that? Yeah. Let's go. First story is, what does a six foot eight pro wrestler eat? Question mark. The entire menu. Great piece by Kim Severson in The New York Times. Profiles Braun Strowman, who was a WWE superstar 12 years. if you may remember from a previous food writer talking about food writing I admitted that I was a employee of WWE back in the day not to bring that back but I feel I feel like I know Braun I didn't never met him but I know what it's like 12 years in that business is pretty crazy so the guy he retires what does he do well he starts a food show he starts a food show this show is I actually caught it I was I was channel surfing randomly and I I watched the first episode.