689: Tom Colicchio's First Cookbook Says It All

27:35And on top of that, we really want to make sure that they have exceptional health insurance. We work with Oyster Sunday. We do so much to really try to take care of people. And a lot of the people who work at AMA are there because of the mission. And I think that that creates more of that sense of community and it makes it just more enjoyable work environment. so you know at polio is you know real stainless steel silverware and you had to like polish it and you were doing like the table it was just very pristine and i loved being able to see that and and that level of expectation and i'm definitely like very detail oriented because of that um but i also want people to be able to make a mistake and be able to you know like love the place yeah they want to you know there are tough tough shifts obviously but overall generally it's a supportive environment and it's still hard work.

28:33And we're open from like 8 a.m. until, you know, close as a dinner service. And we have this, you know, cafe bancone window. It's this open air thing. And I just love walking in in the morning and I see our barista having a chat with a guest from the window who's sipping an espresso. Like it's what I always wanted to feel a little bit like Italy, but here in Washington, D.C. And I think that because the staff feels like they can have a chat and just like really create these relationships, we see so many repeat guests and so many people that are part of like the AMA community now. It's very cool.

29:06Yeah. What is your wish for the restaurant industry? My wish for the restaurant industry is that we start to get more education on when it comes to kind of the health and sustainability and how it takes just a little bit more work to actually get that education and get the best practices and resources and tools necessary to do it. But like once you actually do it, the investment is so worth it. You know, a lot of people look at what I'm doing with Ama because when you look at sustainability, it's, you know, usually, you know, the sweet greens of the world of like, you know, doing the eco containers or going all the way up to, you know, very high tasting menu, green Michelin experiences.

29:55And, you know, I remember hearing on a podcast, you know, some restaurant critics being like, I don't think there can be a sustainable neighborhood restaurant. Interesting. And, you know, I want to challenge that. Yeah. You can get a$2 espresso at Ama. You can get a little pastry. You can also get a meal and not break the bank. And you can do it. And we use all certified organic ingredients. We work with all local farms or artisanal Italian producers, like from Beatrice. and the quality of our ingredients directly correlates to people's health and when you think about it we're having people eating out sometimes two to three meals a day and so we are directly responsible of their health and so we have to really start creating menus that have balance, that have nourishment.

30:47The food porn experience or the viral dish is great. Oh, when that brodo was being poured over the dumpling, I definitely had a food porn moment, I have to say. And you can find that, right? But that's a nourishing bone broth, right? Sure was. And it's like one of those things that when I say health, I don't mean going on like a paleo diet that you can't touch a carb. Like it's the quality and sourcing and the way that I even address gluten, right? That makes it feel like I have guests who are celiac and gluten intolerant that literally have had pasta or gluten at my restaurant and had no reactions.

31:30They trust you, obviously. Yeah, I mean, for me, I was with a celiac, I was very concerned, but she was like, I wanna try it. And it was the pasta that has mostly chestnut flour. But, you know, she's had no reactions. And having those testimonies, even another person was like, I haven't had a croissant in forever. And we have these cornetto, the Italian cornetto. And I was like, listen, you do you if you want to try it. You know, I'm happy to give you one. He tried it and he came back the next day and he was like brimming from ear to ear being like, I had no reaction. I feel amazing. And so that sourcing is really important.

32:06And the last thing I'll say is the plastics. Yeah. That's a huge one for me. Absolutely. You're as plastic free as you probably can be in a busy commercial restaurant. I think it's really important to say that you cannot be entirely plastic free as a restaurant or even just as a society. It's everywhere. It's in paint. It's in chairs. Like, I mean, what do you line your trash cans with? And I believe in radical transparency and not greenwashing people. So to me, it's really important to say like, you know, we are doing our best. Like we don't have any squeeze bottles. We don't do, you know, any deli containers, plastic containers.

32:43We really work to create as plastic free of an environment. And so I challenge my chefs to really think about how much plastic interacts with their food before it hits the plate and really understanding plastic, right, and how high heat, high acid, high fat, the difference between polycarbonate versus polyethylene. A little education on that goes a long way for some healthier practices that really take care of people's health. If you could eat through a city for a day, what would the city be and what would you eat? Milano. Oh, beautiful. I'm going to Italy. You have to. Milano is great. Tell me about your day in Milan.

33:24Oh, God, it's my favorite. It's one of those things that I will, it's a central point between Alto Adige and Liguria. So sometimes I find that to be like the good place to stop. And I'll always put like an extra day there. I will get a panzerotti from Luini. I will get a little coffee from Cafe Vergnano. Princi is a great bakery that I like love to just stop in and see. I will I mean, I will eat that city all the way. I'll go. There's so many amazing places. I can't even. Revello was a great restaurant that I went to the last time I was there. It was so delicious. You can sit at the counter and really watch the chefs cook.

34:10I love going to Langoceria Cafe. You have to go to the cafe one that's near the Duomo. Jacopo, the chef for the group, does such an exceptional job with seafood. And they also have a chef's counter there. And yeah, it's a little expensive, but it's like the one thing I'll be like, okay, budgeting to go to Langoceria. because you just don't get access to seafood like that anywhere like in the U.S. I'm sorry. Like there's no comparison to that fresh. Mediterranean seafood. The Carabineros that come, they have sometimes the Santa Margherita. We have these purple prawns that have like the purple. It's just like, it's incredible.

34:52Languistines, you can eat them raw. Like just the access to freshness is incredible. Those are the big boys too, those langustines. My gosh. The one thing you can't resist splurging on when you're dining out. You know, I can't resist splurging on like something that's really like the quality ingredient, like the highlight that they have. So if a chef is really proud of, you know, working with a local farm and getting this beautiful vegetable, like I'm going to get that. Same thing with, you know, if they're sourcing a really great steak, you know, just proteins being so quality, it's going to be a little bit more expensive.

35:32But I just think it's so worth it. And it really also puts your money to your values. And that's really important for me when it comes to dining out. Speaking of values, what do you value most in restaurants? I value the nurturing and the way that we are just naturally born nurturers. I think that people in hospitality just genuinely really love to take care of people. And I really love that about the industry. I think we're the first people to show up in a moment of crisis, right? When there's a fire happening or, you know, even with World Central Kitchen, I'm a Chef Corps member. Just what they're doing to obviously take care of people in natural disasters.

36:12There's just something about our industry that is really just about hospitality and taking care of people that I think is so exceptional. Last question. It's your last meal on earth. What are you eating? Pastina in brado. I know that sounds so funny, but it's my favorite childhood memory. It's just like a really good broth and a little pastina. and I love putting parmigiano reggiano in and then it's like scraping it off the bottom. It's one of my - Just that act of scraping. Yeah, there's something about when you put parmigiano reggiano in broth. Yeah, yeah. That is just one of the most amazing things.

36:56It's a very simple dish, but it's so comforting. And I think at that moment, I would need a little comfort. Johanna, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

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38:33Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. Tom Colicchio, welcome back to This Is Taste. How are you? Great. Great to see you. Before we get into the 25th anniversary of Think Like a Chef, a book we talked about in our last conversation a year ago, and I'm linking to that great episode in the show notes. Just where have you been dining out in New York as of late? Oh, God, I have not been dining out in New York as of late at all. That's good. Okay. No, you know, I don't get out much.

39:14I should get out more, but I really don't get out much. Tonight I'll be in the restaurant probably until 8, 8.30 after I go home. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And nights that I'm not working, I'm cooking at home. So, no, there's a restaurant called Strange Delights. Yes. that's in my neighborhood that I like a lot. Yeah. That's probably the most recent restaurant that I've been to. Yeah, yeah. Great, great restaurant. It's cool that you go there. I mean, they just launched breakfast too. Oh, did they? They have a pop-up breakfast there. No, I like it. I like to sit at the bar and just get raw bar stuff. And the back restaurant's really cozy as well.

39:47So I like that, yeah. That's a great call. I like that. So again, I'm linking to the great episode about your memoir. Still sticks with me a year later. I thought it was just a terrific book. Talks about your journey. What have you been up to the last year since we spoke? I think we've had an election. We've had a— We're having another election today. Today we're taping this on Election Day in New York. Yeah, you've done Top Chef. You know, you're continuing to do that show. And you're working in your restaurants. Well, I think the big thing is in terms of craft is 25 years old next year. And we made some major changes there.

40:24Yeah. For years, we were large format, family style, and we recently changed and went to a plated menu. And the reason being is that, you know, everything on our menu is really for two to three people. But yet when people saw, you know, we're just browsing menus and they saw our duck at$72, they were like, this is ridiculous. And, you know, it doesn't indicate anywhere that this is for two to three people. Yeah. And also, I think post-pandemic, a lot of people just weren't sharing anymore. They were taking, you know, a 16-ounce pork chop and ordering it, and we put it in the center of the table to share, and they would just take the whole thing and try to eat it.

41:04So the combination of the two, and, you know, the price is going up the way they are, we decided to make a big change. And so we've been—so that's the big change for the year. You know, started doing that, started working on that in the summer. And so that's been, you know, a challenge because a lot of our regulars were like, you know, we like the old menu. What are you doing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's, but that's been it. Let's go back to the book, Think Like a Chef. 25 years ago, it was published, and I think we were chatting last time. Right. I don't know if it was on mic or off mic, but you were like, that book needs to come back.

41:40Well, yeah, we talked about it. And I think I mentioned to you that I was really disappointed that it was only available in soft cover. That's right. And that the cover was one of my least favorite photos of me ever. That's right. And I just hated the cover of the book. And I guess, you know, maybe you shot that to someone who makes decisions. And all of a sudden I got a phone call saying, hey, we want to reissue. I have to say I did send an email to Aaron at our publishing group. I believe he had been on his mind. So it was like stars aligning. And here we are a year later and the book is out.

42:13And I think I was able to really give it a read and I have a bunch of questions about the style of cooking back then. But let's go back to the original publishing of it. I think it's important to note Roy Finnamore was your editor, a real legend at Clarkson Pottery. He's since passed. Also, my current colleague, Mary Sarah Quinn, was working on it, who I still adore and love working with to this day and does a lot of our covers. Tom, my question is when you were writing the book 25 years ago, what is that like? You know, it's a different era. I mean, the technology is not here. What's that like for you?

42:50You know, I just published a book last year and the process is relatively the same. It hasn't – technology hasn't changed anything in terms of producing the book. We did have one thing in common in both books. the author for Think Like a Chef one of the authors, Sean Fry was a captain at Grand Ritchie Tavern a very smart guy but he turned in a draft that was really hard to follow and he was trying to pull something off that was very hard to do partly it was written in his voice partly written in my voice there was this narrative running through the book and it just didn't work and luckily for me my wife Lori Silverbush is a writer and she rewrote that book and the same thing happened with the current book but you know working with Roy was great because once we turned in the draft he did very little work he was like I love it just the way it is it's really good I mean I don't know if the word was changed wow and but he was also instrumental in the cover even though Mary Sarah Mary Sarah did the design of the book yeah but the cover actually Roy chose the photo of my hand that was a bigger picture of my body and he just zoomed in on the hand and thought that was the right cover.

44:06And I completely agree with him and loved it. And then, but he was just very, just very open to what we were doing and it was a little different. And he said, no, this is perfect the way it is. So Roy Finnamore also famously discovered Ina Garten when she was running a shop out in the Hamptons and found her as an author. How was Roy approaching you? You know, Tom, you're a very well-regarded restaurant chef in New York City, James Beard, but you're not a media personality at that time. How was he courting you to do a book? What was that like? Well, I pitched the book. You pitched it? He was assigned, you know, Clarkson Potter picked it up.

44:45He was assigned to edit it. Cool, cool. So I remember him coming in. And so we shot all of the photos were done at Gramercy Tavern in the private dining room. Because there was a kitchen in the back of the kitchen that we would use for the private parties. So I was able to do everything real time there. And he came in and Bill Bettencourt was a photographer. And he came in and he was like, I'm going to be there for the photography. I want to get hands. And he walked in and saw what we were doing and said, this is great. And he left. and um but then it was you know he shifted through all the photos and did all that work and and made sense of it all but but uh no i think there was this you know he came in and saw what we were doing and said i like what you're doing just continue doing it yeah and um you know i i've styled everything i don't work with a with a with a stylist i do it myself and i i have a certain thing that I'm looking for.

45:42I don't want it to look fussed over. I want it to feel real and natural. And I think, you know, we accomplished that. I think in the time it was progressive in that way. Yeah. That it wasn't overly propped. It didn't feel like, you know, some of those 90s cookbooks felt pretty 90s because they were pretty ornate in a lot of the dressing. And you really stripped it down. It obviously lended to what you're writing about, which was a lot of technique and a lot of some minimalism. Well, you know, the book was written for someone who likes to cook. Yeah. And someone who is—I struggled with recipes.

46:21As I examined it when I was older, most likely I would have been diagnosed with ADHD. All my children are clinically diagnosed. Back then, they weren't diagnosing it. And I struggled with a recipe. and I struggled to try to figure out what the author was trying to tell me. It wasn't until I found Jacques Propin's La Technique that completely changed the way I was able to look at food because then I was looking at it through the lens of there's a series of techniques and methods and things like that that you have to learn. And so with Think Like a Chef, I wanted to get the reader to understand that once you understand the basics, then you can cook your own food.

47:00You don't have to cook someone else's food that, you know, or you don't have to worry about going to the market and there's one ingredient you can't find, so you've got to scrap the recipe. Right. You can just go there and buy a bunch of ingredients and cook. So you make your own recipes. I mean, the book I wanted to write wouldn't have had a recipe in it, but obviously it's kind of hard to do a cooking recipe, right? They had different thoughts, but your instinct was to really focus on technique. Yes. And also ingredients, too. But then also then looking at some of the trilogies, the section on trilogies, we take three ingredients, and by changing the approach to each ingredient, you come up with different dishes.

47:31And then the same thing with studies, where it's one ingredient that you turn, like the tomato, you turn it into a roasted tomato, and then that becomes the springboard for the recipe. And to me, that was a way to illustrate to the hobbyist, home cook, I call it, you know, a hobbyist cook, that this is the way to think about putting things together. So now that you have the technique, the question is always, well, how do you know what to put together? I think this is the first time in print to say what grows together goes together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was, but also this is the way I think about putting dishes together.

48:05And then in the end where we just take dishes that are kind of like side dishes and turn them into dishes by looking at this whole idea of component cooking. Yeah, it's a very intuitive. And so, you know, the thing for me is that this was really for the home cook, but then so many young, you know, budding professional chefs and cooks really latched onto it. and really use the book. Yeah, and will today. Yeah, it still does. Picking up this anniversary edition beautifully. It's a hardcover, really nice, you know, new art direction throughout and some elements. Let's talk about the introduction.

48:42What's it like, Tom, to write the introduction for a cookbook that came 25 years before? Was it challenging to write that introduction? No, because, I mean, you know, so much has changed, but so little has changed. Yeah. You know, I think especially in cooking, there's not a whole lot of tech that is going to help you, like really help you. I mean, maybe, you know, where you can access recipes has changed. But other than that, you still got to get there and turn on the stove and, you know, get a saute pan or a sautoir or a rondeau and cook. There's no substitution for that. and so no I thought it was a pretty easy thing to write yeah are there are there recipes that you wanted to maybe finesse a bit not so much the recipes but I wouldn't have minded maybe because we didn't have the time to yeah but fill out maybe some more like add another trilogy or add another study yeah that would have been you know listen would I want to do a whole book on this again I mean I thought about I even have the title it's called Think Again but we'll see I mean you should think about that because I think it's cool because I think that there are certainly timeless flavor combinations but there's also things that were of the moment in 2000 right?

50:02Oh yeah there's definitely ways to reduce some of these theories and come up with new ones yeah. So Tom you write quote cooking is a craft that begins with technique and I think we have a lot of people listening to this show who might not even know what technique means. Give us a sense of when you write that chapter, what you're trying to say. Sure. I mean, the building blocks of cuisine, you know, making a stock, you know, had it then turned that into a sauce. Yes. We have a small chapter on that, though. I think we break it down pretty easily. Knowing how to properly roast something, how to properly braise something.

50:41You know, I love when you get a recipe and it says, you know, take a shoulder of lamb and tie it and bone it out and tie it and sear it on all sides, remove it from the pan or from the rondeau, add mirepoix, you know, cut into quarter-inch pieces and, you know, brown that, return the lamb to the pan, add two cups of red wine, four cups of chicken stock, a bouquet garni. Well, you could simply say braise the lamb shoulder. That's all you're doing here, right? And it doesn't matter if it's a rabbit leg, a lamb shoulder, a pork breast you know pork butt braising is braising the technique is all the same and so now once you learn that this is what they're trying to get you to do then the question is okay how do i alter this well if you're doing like more of a french braise it's mirepoix bouquet garni in stock right well if you want to move that into a different direction you know add star anise add you know five chinese you know five spice you know powder you know um add you know chilies to it um if you want it spicy you know so how do you want to alter these flavors is the liquid ratio the key there with this technique again the ratio isn't so here's here's what people i think they rely too much on measurement as opposed to the process so the process is if you're braising something do you want it completely submerged or do you want just maybe the top maybe eighth of an inch sticking out of the braising liquid so it gets a nice little crust.

52:10So the question is now, what size pan are you using? Yes, yes, yes. All these things, you know, are important. This is why it's more important to say, put the amount of liquid in it so the piece of whatever you're braising is either submerged, fully submerged, or just barely poking out of the top. That's the real, you know, the same thing with like, we're coming up on Thanksgiving, and you're going to get the question, I have a 14-pound turkey, how long do I cook it? That's not the question. Yeah. The question is, what temperature should I cook it till? Yeah, yeah. Right? The internal temperature, if you want it at 160, why is turkey always dry?

52:43I mean, no brine, probably. Well, no. That's not even the issue. I don't like the brine. I think brine actually dries it out. Most recipes will say put it in a 375-degree oven. If it's a 14-pound turkey, that's going to take how long to cook? You've got to bring it to 160 degrees. So by the time the internal temperature is 160 degrees, the external temperature is 375. Yeah. So how about we take that and lower that down to 225? It's going to take longer to get that internal temperature to 160, but the outside temperature is still only going to be 225 degrees. It's not going to be as dried out. So people are just too focused on the amount of time something takes as opposed to what temperature you want to cook.

53:27Yeah, the final. If it's a roast. So anyway, the proper way to roast, the proper way to braise, the proper way to saute. How do you cook a green vegetable? You know, how do you cook, you know, beans and things like that. And so once you understand the techniques, then when you're looking at a recipe, you can go, oh, I see what they're doing here. And you can alter it and change it and make it your own. Or you can just get rid of recipes. Did you come across any new techniques since publishing this that you wish you would have added? I think the roasting, I actually roast much lower. Lower now.

54:01Much lower. And then, so what I would do for the turkey is roast it at even 200 degrees. And then when it gets to 160, you take it out of the oven. Then you crank your oven up. Take the turkey out first, then crank it up, and then put it back in to crisp it up. Yeah. But I just think it's a better technique, especially for a large roast. So let's go back to trilogies, this idea of three components and playing them off each other. I think during this TikTok age, there's so much maximalism out there online. but the idea of pairing it down to three simple ingredients and using the technique we just talked about is really a safe way to cook well.

54:37For our listeners, you should pick up the book. Tell us some of the trilogies you include in there. We did rams, morels, and asparagus. Love it. Because that's all about spring. Yes, spring. And by taking each of those ingredients and treating them differently, you come up with different dishes. Yeah. we also did lobster pasta and peas I loved that and again by treating them all differently you come up with different dishes that feels a little bit of the era yeah a little bit of the early 2000s yeah I love it love it but I think it still holds up oh 100 % I was just at Carbone and they were doing that exact thing no peas but they were lobster pasta yeah exactly I remember you know back in god it had to be 80 for Alfa Portale, his first menu at Gotham had a lobster bolognese on it.

55:31Oh, fun. Yeah. I like that. And I think actually Jacques Maximum had a lobster bolognese type thing in one of his menus because I think Alfa worked for him. So it goes back, yeah. Tom, on this is Taste We Asked about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Sure. The best fruit? Peaches in season. The worst vegetable. The worst vegetable. You know, worst vegetable. Why is it? I don't know. I mean, you're an optimist. You like vegetables. I love vegetables, yeah. Worse, though, I mean, I grow a lot of vegetables. Oh, well, I hate okra, so that's it.

56:13Sure, there you go. Okra is the answer. Yeah, you can't cook with it. What is your typical breakfast? These days I do a protein shake. All right. What's in it? Every morning, it's a chocolate cachava makes it, and it's just a protein powder, a chocolate protein powder. Sometimes we'll blend with ice and a banana, but that's usually what I'm doing these mornings. You swim in too? Yeah, I'm swimming, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm back to swimming. After 40 years of not being in a pool, I started swimming in January. Oh. And, you know, I lost about 40 pounds since January, so that's— No way. That's great, man.

56:47You feeling great? I feel great, yeah. Yeah. But I'm swimming like four to five days a week, and I'll do about 2 ,000 to 2 ,400 yards in 45 minutes or so. So it's good. It's a good exercise. That's nice. And you've got to have that shake, of course. The best dessert? I just like ice cream and sorbet. But, yeah, I like chocolate, but I don't go crazy for it. I'd rather a fruit dessert. Give me like a lemon sorbet, and I'm happy. Yeah, I like that. But a restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead? Jean-Louis Paladin's restaurant. Yeah, yeah. He was so innovative. He was so ahead of his time.

57:25It'd be great to see if he were alive to see what he'd be doing today. Jean-Louis, yeah. What made it so special? Jean-Louis. Yeah. You know, I'd never eaten there, but I knew Jean-Louis really well. And I never got to his restaurant. I mean, he cooked with us at Gramercy for an event. and uh but uh you know he was actually before anyone in this country he was going to farmers um he was buying from farms he was you know buying great seafood i mean he was he was way ahead of his time yeah yeah um when you're craving fast food where are you going i i don't just i don't do fast food not even a quick shake shack burrito no no no no i'm not a you know, I don't crave a burger like so many people.

58:15I don't need to have one. If I'm going to eat meat, I'd rather eat steak or something. But no, I haven't had fast food in, I mean, the last time I had fast food, we were shooting in Wisconsin and I went to one of those burger places, but I just went there for ice cream. Oh, like Culver's, I'm sure? Culver's, yeah, but I went there for ice cream or Leon's. Oh, Leon's, right. I forget which one, but I went for ice cream. That was it. But I don't do fast food. I don't, it's just not my thing. I respect it. I respect it. You know. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food? I was in Singapore.

58:46We shot our finale there. I thought Singapore was just amazing. Yeah. Food-wise, you know, between hawker stands and chili crab and, you know, they food like a sport there. I mean, it's like, I was really impressed. That's very cool. Last one, your favorite sandwich? I don't know if I have a favorite go-to. Yeah, yeah. I love sandwiches. We have a whole new sandwich menu at Valada that we're serving at lunch. and Dude, witchcraft Well, I know witchcraft but witchcraft's gone there's no more I know, I'm remembering it like it was truly like a legendary place Absolutely So if you like sandwiches like witchcraft, man that was great Yeah, witchcraft was great It was so good There was so many good sandwiches there I think the tuna was one of my favorites Yeah, yeah Tuna with fennel black olives which we actually do a version of that at Valada but we do sandwiches there and if you want a great sandwich we got them Yeah, Valada Yeah Yeah, yeah I got to down there this past winter.

59:40It was great, man. Great restaurants. Tom, you know, 25 years at Kraft. Maybe you'll come back next year and we'll talk about those 25 years. Always a pleasure having you in the studio. Thank you so much for joining.

59:56This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Barbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, Director of Media Production and Development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Logo and guest illustrations by Ellie Skrzat. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.