695: Holiday Cookie Boot Camp with Vaughn Vreeland & Marissa Rothkopf

27:20And because of the alcohol in there, the curd really doesn't freeze. So I decided to kind of hearken that, recall that frozen margarita vibe. That is how you said it, is in the freezer. And they stay really good in the freezer. And I love a freezer dessert, right? It's like almost a mix between a key lime pie and an icebox pie. And with tequila. There's a quarter cup in there, tequila. There's a lot of tequila. So like this is not for the kids. No, no. And it doesn't necessarily, I wouldn't say that that amount of tequila like burns off or bakes out. It still tastes pretty strongly of tequila.

27:58It's a cool flavor profile. The Mexican hot chocolate cookie, let's go back to that one. You want to like, you're channeling beverage and you've done this over the years. But what is it about Mexican hot chocolate that just, it almost sells itself? You know, I think for me, I love chili in desserts, and I think that's why I really gravitated toward it. But I really like any flavor that creeps up on you. I think that's what I really love about the Mexican hot chocolate flavor profile in general, is that it's like you taste it and you're like, that's delicious, but it still has something left to say.

28:35I think this might be the one for the cookie competition. I think so, too. Because you want someone to like, you know, we've got this table and there's like, there was like 25 and maybe 28 if I remember. You kind of want it to last a little bit, right? It almost creates this craving a little bit because it's like spicy and it makes you want to go back for more. And I think that, I think that might be why. I think that might be why that could be the cookie. I'm also thinking Black Sesame because I feel Black Sesame, there's a lot of fans who do not like chocolate. like people in that in that like voting totally thinking about my constituents my voters yeah you've gotta you've gotta really read the room I think that another thing about another important factor in the type of person that wins a cookie competition is how empathetic they are I think they have to I think they really have to play to emotion and they've gotta really know their audience yeah and that's that's and now I know the audience because we did it one year before so that's a really good point I think for all baking empathy is super important.

29:39You can't show off. You're not putting in flavors that are cool, buzzy, chef-y that aren't accessible. Totally. Absolutely.

29:50I feel like I've been kind of beating this quote into the ground, but I do love it. And it is something that kind of guides a lot of my recipe development. It is a quote by the late, great Diana Vreeland, which there is, I'm putting it out on this podcast, there is no direct relation. I am I'm like, you have to kind of own it now that you're quoting Miss Vreeland here. I went on Watch What Happens Live the other day, and Andy Cohen kind of called me a Nepo baby. And I was like, no, I'm not. So there's no connection for the record. If there is, my grandfather, who was a hoot and a half, would always say that she was his second cousin or something like that.

30:31But it's like, I've never met her. I don't know her children or her grandchildren. Like, you know, there is no direct connection. But she had this great quote that when she was at Vogue that she would say, you know, you shouldn't give people what they want. You should give people what they don't know that they want yet. And I think that that is something that's always like really driven and guided my development with a lot of things. It's like not putting people too far outside of their comfort zone, but kind of turning the light bulb on in their head. I love it. And I think with recipes, we do that all the time, right?

31:10We, when we're writing recipes for cookbooks, we're trying to give people what they, you know, possibly don't know they want. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. These recipes, it's not all about playing the hits. Which I think is why the gochujang caramel cookie just like exploded is because it's like, oh, that might not have been something that you were like sitting on the couch, like dreaming up or craving at that time. But like once you try it, you're like, this is amazing. I have to say in my first cookbook, Koreatown, we had a kimchi white chocolate snickerdoodle. But it had kimchi in it. that actually sounds I mean I would eat it it was it was a little bit more than just go to you know I had a um oh we had this really great I think we still have the recipe um like it was it was a from I think from Zoe Kanaan and it had uh seaweed in it yeah and it was like a seaweed chocolate chip cookie oh amazing it was so good oh I love I remember trying that for the first time i was like that was amazing that but that also i think that is a chefy thing you know i don't know if that is something that like for the competition you're talking about yeah i don't know well maybe but maybe for the competition but i'm talking more just like generally recipe writing like i'm not sure if i would be able to convince a wide swath of people to put seaweed in their cookie but like the chefs can do it because they're like they have that mind and it's like oh wow like that is this amazing chefy thing that i'm willing to like do you know i i kind of feel like i'm trying to write recipes that open people's minds but also appeal to the widest amount of people that's that's so important as a star when writing cookbooks i mean talk about your tv career i feel i feel like i mean talk about watch what happens but i mean you've been on some TV shows and like you're great at it.

33:11And like, what do you want to do? Like what's, what's like on your vision board for TV? Let's put it out there. Let's put it out there. I'm like, okay, existential crisis incoming. No, no, I, you know, I think that judging cooking competitions, which I've gotten the chance to do. There's this show that is out now in the countdown to Christmas on Hallmark Network called Baked With Love. And it's, it was really fun. You're on the Hallmark, too. Yeah. Yo, flex. I love that. It was, like, out of all of the things that I have done in my life, I think that my sisters have never been so impressed with me as when I told them that I booked a Hallmark show.

33:53They were just, like, us beside themselves. Anyway, that was super fun. I think that I think just getting the chance to meet people and try food through their lens is something that I love. Like, I'm not trying to be the next Anthony Bourdain. I'm not trying to be the next Martha Stewart. But maybe I'm trying to, like, combine elements of the people that I loved growing up. And, you know, because I grew up on food television. I mean, I grew up on, obviously, you know, your Food Network staples. staples but i also loved like i loved a martha stewart i loved a bourdain i loved a bizarre foods like i think that all of those things were really enticing to me um and just like in my travels personally that's how i've connected with people yeah i love that i love that attitude can't wait to see you do some fun things oh thank you um what is your baking schedule like like December 1st through December 25th.

34:53Like what, like now that you have the book, you're really the holiday cookie. Yeah. I mean, I put in the intro of this book that I deliver cookies to the people at my laundry bed every year, which I do. That is true. But now I'm like locked in. Like that is like, I like, I have to deliver them cookies every year. Maybe with a book too. Yeah. I actually, I do, I do plan on giving them a book with, with the cookies this year. uh they're so sweet but anyway i i would say starting you know today december 1st until really i mean through the new year like probably like i'll bake something for new year's eve usually um i'm not baking every day but i'm baking every other day like i think that that's like yeah and i like to especially when i put my cookie boxes together for like my my neighborhood people yeah um i like to set aside like a good solid sundae and maybe take them on a monday morning to to go like deliver them around how many cookies are in the box um usually i would say i make four different types and put two of each in there yeah so eight yeah it's a perfect amount i think that that's a good amount for you don't want to overwhelm people you know my neighbors I'll maybe make like a smaller version of that if they're just because we live in like studio one bedrooms or whatever so I'll give them like one of each and they know where I live if they want more but yeah I think that that's usually like where I'm living is like the eight cookie what about future cookbook projects now that you have this one I know like on the spot I didn't prep for this one but I'd love to see you obviously your work uh expand to other territories thank you i you know i definitely don't want to be like just a baking person no i i think that that is something that i am incredibly passionate about it's been you know a big uh guiding light in my career but i also cook you know i also develop savory recipes i develop weeknight recipes um so my next book that I am working on now is about that.

37:16It is about like, it encompasses everything without saying too, too much about it. You don't need to spoil a good show. There are some people in this very building that might not want me to say too much about it. But it is kind of, you know, how cooking helped me reclaim and refocus my life. So there is a little bit of like an autobiographical component to it in through recipes. And I, it definitely is not meant to be self-help at all, but it is a, just the overarching theme is like cooking is so good for you to do and you should do it. But I also know that you don't always have the capacity, the bandwidth or the time to get in the kitchen and make something from scratch.

38:08There's just some, I love that there's some, there's a satisfaction after preparing a meal. Oh, yeah. And it stays, it's like a halo. It like stays with you. One thousand percent. And it connects with the other people. I'm not trying to be corny here. I just think you're so right. And we, and, and, you know, if you don't cook a lot at home because of a lot of reasons, it's fair. And, but I would say just making that effort to make a meal, you're going to feel better about yourself and others. A thousand percent. When I tell you that I was on the road for two weeks, before that I had like events every night, whatever.

38:45Hence the McDonald's a lot of the time. Nice. You got some points on the app. Oh, yeah. If you're not getting points, what are you doing? You got to use the app. Come on. Once again, not sponsored. No, not sponsored. So use the app. I mean, the app is where it's at. But I cooked my first meal that I like cooked for the first time in like three weeks. on Saturday and I was just my my mindset just immediately shifted I was just so much more centered and and grounded and ready to like actually do things with my day I think before that I was like kind of dreading the day a little bit I was like I'm back I just want to sleep but But then I cooked something and I just was excited to like live.

39:36And not to get so like esoteric. What did you cook? Well, so I cooked this weekend. I was working on the recipe. Yeah. Which is a brunch recipe. So I did that. And then I had this big, well, this ties into cookie week. When we were doing the cookie week shoot for Claire Saffitz's cookie, it is a mortadella cookie. so it is it doesn't taste like mortadella is that clear's recipe yes it is it is a it is like a trompe l 'oeil like looks like mortadella uh but we had just to show people this like really nice chunk of mortadella so i fried up mortadella i made some slow eggs i did the recipe that i'm working on for the holidays and it was just like perfect it was so it was simple it it but it was like a complete meal to me i made myself my own like iced latte which i hadn't been able to make coffee in a few weeks and that is another thing that helps me get going in the morning is like actually making my own coffee um and yeah that just like that just like really got me grounded for the weekend i love that i i the package is amazing it's so cool thank you let's shout out your designer too oh my god i love the design and and we talk a lot about that on the show and And I was talking to Felix off mic and I was like, this design is really good.

40:58Oh, Deb is amazing. What's her last name? Deb Young. Deb Young. Deb Young. She is awesome. She like really took, I think, my like Pinterest vision board of sorts and channeled it into the cookie book. Like at the New York Times, a lot of things have like a certain structure that they have to follow. Yes, they do. you're so elegant being as diplomatic as possible yeah um that is not my man from essex that is my no uh but i would say we were able to really play with form for this book and i'm very thankful that they allowed us to do that and deb with the table of cookies like i think that that alone has driven a lot of sales i think that alone has like made this a popular book because it is just so satisfying yeah to be clear the table cookies is when you open the book up the table contents it's not just a bunch of words it's the photos of all the cookies yeah and it's amazing it is it is so amazing and uh you know shouting out caitlin and trisha the new york times and molly and kari here like it's just like a lot of folks went into the making of this book beyond just the recipes um and i'm just like really thankful because it is it is an expression of who i am in a book and i it's really cool that people were able to like put that into like a visual thing you know i love it vana this is taste we ask guests about the discerning taste so to close this interview here's a little rapid fire fast and furious taste check are you ready yes the best fruit blackberry the worst vegetable uh the the uh cauliflower wow i don't know if i i don't believe that though i just wow you said the words that i love cauliflower but that it's your answer i don't know though i'm like i see my brain is scrambled eggs yeah yeah i'm like trying to go rapid fire that the worst we can slow it down let's slow it down okay so cauliflower no we're going to X on that one?

43:04I don't know. I just, it's so messy to cut. Yeah. It's tough, man. I don't know. We all feel that. And we feel our floors because if you have a dark floor and you've got like cauliflower, little, like little granules, it's like a pain. A thousand percent. I, I like the taste of cauliflower. Um, it's just, yeah, it gets everywhere. And it also like, not to be like, whatever, it kind of makes me a little gassy. So maybe that's why I'm saying cauliflower. Definitely. I love cauliflower because love me. The best dessert. The best dessert. I do have to say a cookie. But aside from that, like one that I've had at a restaurant or one or just like a general category.

43:48Category. Oh, okay. I'm going to say an ice cream cake. Yeah. Yeah. It's childhood. It's memory. An ice cream cake is the best dessert. A thousand percent. What is your typical breakfast? My typical breakfast is a bowl of yogurt with usually a like fruit compote of some sort. Blackberries, which is why I said blackberries are the best fruit. Which I don't know if I even believe that though. I love passion fruit. I love mango. I don't know. Whatever. That's just so nice. When you get them in season, they're fucking perfect. Yes. One thousand percent. And granola. And then that is like my first breakfast.

44:29And then my second breakfast is a, uh, an egg thing, a savory thing. Yeah. Usually eggs. Love it. I love a second breakfast. What is the best thing you've ever baked? The best thing that I've ever baked, I would say is a.

44:56maybe something laminated for sure probably queen amon i would say is one of the best things i've ever made with sheet or without without a sheet oh i don't i just at home yeah yeah um cannelly I love canelé. I just think like they're – I don't have the copper molds anymore. But I – yeah, I would say canelé are probably one of the best things I've ever made. A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead? Oh, Uncle Boone's. Good call. It's come up on the show like once before. You know, just the cavernous nature of it, the spice, the vibe in the back. Yes, I loved it down there. I love Thai Diner.

45:38I think Thai Diner is like one of my favorite restaurants in New York. But there was just something very special about Uncle Boone's. Favorite city outside America to visit for food? Oh, outside of America? Bangkok. Yeah, Bangkok has just, it's got a little bit of everything that I want. It's got street food. It has fine dining. Also, Bangkok's just like a phenomenal city. Fun place. Last one, your favorite sandwich. Favorite sandwich. Oh. Oh, at a place or a category. Could be both. Oh. Could be one or the other. Oh my God. I love a French dip. There's a place in Raleigh where I'm from that has a really good, or actually I think that they might have closed too, called Boundinis, which I would also bring back from the dead.

46:26They had a really good French dip. I would say in general favorite sandwich, I got to go with, or I love banh mi too. Like Hello Saigon has really good banh mi or something from Court Street Grocers. Probably the Turkey Reuben. That's a good one, yeah. Yeah. Which I don't think they call it the Turkey Reuben, but it's called something. Clever name, I'm sure. An artful name. Yes. And banh mi is my number one. Yeah, of course. I love this. Banh Vreeland, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Oh, thank you so much, Pat. This was fun.

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47:45The full program is available at MontrealOnLumiere.com, presented by Lotto Quebec in collaboration with National Bank. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner.

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48:55It was incredible. These ButcherBox ribs are amazing. For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year, plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. Marissa Rothkopf, welcome. This is Taste. Great to see you. Great to see you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation.

49:36I've been on your podcast and I love what you do and prolific sub stack. And I'm linking to all those links in the show notes. Before we get to your book, The Secret Life of Chocolate Chip Cookies, which I really like. Thanks. And it's following our conversation with Vaughn because I think Vaughn has some thoughts. You have some thoughts. Yeah. But before we get to that, you used to review restaurants for The New York Times and your territory was New Jersey. and we were just chatting off mic about how there is really no New Jersey coverage in the paper of record, this wonderful publication that covers the five boroughs in the best way possible at a really, really, I would say, amazing point of the year, in this year of growth, where they've hired more critics and it's really robust.

50:20But what the fuck? Where is New Jersey in this conversation? You know, and how many people who either work at The Times, read The Times, come from New Jersey, Not to mention that reviewing restaurants in New Jersey for The New York Times was one of the great experiences that I had. Not just like from a journalistic point of view, which of course it was great, but I really got to know my state. And I will defend New Jersey to the death. I will tell people in Connecticut that our pizza is much better. Hard to agree. Right? Those are facts. Facts. Thank you. It is a fact. And from like red sauce, Sunday gravy type restaurants that people have been going to since, I don't know, meatballs were invented in New Jersey.

51:12No, they weren't. But you know what I mean? Yeah, pretty much. By all means that. But Sunday gravy, you know, those big oil tanks by the Newark airport filled with gravy. Anyway, red sauce. Like the Belmont Tavern, one of those old-timey places to places that are literally on the cutting edge of cooking where people are growing their own wheat and grinding it, making their own pasta from scratch. It's a truly amazing place and diverse. Every kind of food you want is there. So I really feel like I've got to start reviewing restaurants for the time. Opportunity for the New York Times. Yep. Free idea to hire Marissa back to just take a look at New Jersey.

51:53I know many readers live there. I drive through New Jersey on the way to my home, and I just love the northern suburbs. And, of course, you've got the middle of the state, the shore. You've got the areas around Philly. I mean, what an amazing place to cover. Exactly. It has everything. Yeah, well, you know, let's— We'll talk. Yeah. I mean, I have no say, unfortunately, but I would say right on your sub stack. I would say do some reviews. Maybe I'll just start. Yeah. I mean, there's a bunch of new restaurants that are just opening even in my I live in the restaurant capital of New Jersey, which is Montclair.

52:27Oh, funny. Well, that's a take. but there are so many new places that open and i also want to point out that even before pete wells discovered the best pizza in new york was in new jersey yeah i'd been to raza of course you did it was a great you know like how could i miss it was a great internet moment for that headline um i i fully disagree i love dan richer he's amazing pizza pizzeolo but not the best pizza in New York. I'm sorry. Just have to like correct that in my opinion. But definitely in the top 10. It's great pizza there. Dan's amazing. Maybe the best bread. Definitely. Dan's bread baking is insane.

53:07In fact, my review starts out by saying, normally, I wouldn't tell you to pay for bread and butter. Pay for bread and butter and buy a boo on the way out if you can. I mean, I still think about he was on the show three years ago, brought me a bread and I remember dipping into it. And like, this is so good. Exceptional. So lots to lots to cover in the in the world of cookies. But I wanted to talk first about your podcast. And I really like the framing how you can talk to a guest about cookies, but then get into these topics like culture and feminism and even politics. I mean, it really opens up avenues.

53:45How did you find that cool mix? Well, I think a lot of it stems from my childhood. Can we talk about my childhood? Sure. Let's do it. We're on the sofa. I am. This is very comfortable. Chair sofas, but you know, it's very comfortable. It kills that vibe, yeah. Everyone should know these are very comfortable chairs. I grew up in a house where we talked about two things at the dinner table, and one was food and the other was politics. So it was sort of a natural progression for me. And I knew I wanted to do a podcast just in the same way an actor knows one day they want to direct. You know, it was at that moment in 2020.

54:23And I was having tweets back and forth with Kathy Griffin, of all people. And you have to remember this is like in the midst of COVID, everybody is really feeling awful. Christmas is coming. Trump is leaving, but we still have January 6th to contend with. Anyway, I'm sitting there tweeting back and forth with Kathy Griffin. who says, I want to learn to make lemon bars. Oh, yeah. And I was like, well, I'll tell you. Come on my podcast. I have a podcast. And quickly made a podcast. Created a podcast. You literally invited a guest on before you had a podcast. I think that is a beautiful Genesis moment for a podcast.

55:07That's the way to do it. And so she came on. And you couldn't not talk about, because of her, like, tete-a-tete, as it were, with Donald Trump. I could not talk about it and also everybody was at home and having a lot of feelings so it was easy to get to talk to people because they were still at home and it was easy to bake with them and so I would have people on like E. Jean Carroll in the beginning and Joyce Vance and Joyce Vance would explain the law and how we were going to put away all the people from January 6th and how they would be punished and stuff but whatever we made a delicious cake and the cake lives on.

55:47And you invite them over to share these cooking experiences sometimes. It was all, I've never done one in my own house. Oh, you do it like virtual, yeah. I do it virtually. It's all across the kitchen table. Got it, got it. Which is where the best conversations happen. Yeah, I agree. And I just love, I love your Rolodex. You've got some names in it. Because you're like a long-term journalist. So you have these connections. And I think on the show, we've proven that journalists make great hosts and guests because I think we just like ask a lot of questions. Yeah, for me, it's awkward to sit here.

56:18I would much prefer to be asking you questions. I know, I know. I feel the same way when I appear on shows. Okay, like let's talk about this terrific book. Thank you. The Chocolate Chip Cookie has been given its own book. And probably it hasn't been done before, but I've never seen anything like this. A huge task to fill a full book. And really, it doesn't feel repetitive. It feels really, really like a nice read when you're going through it. But how did you land on the chocolate chip cookie as like the topic for your book? First of all, it's the chocolate chip cookie, right? I mean, that's like the sort of safest answer.

56:57The other thing was, you know, the scene in Ghostbusters where they're like, like they say to the guy and they're like, think about the nicest thing, you know. And he's like, I thought about the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man because that's the one thing that made me really happy as a child. And so I want to think about the happiest thing. Considering what's going on in our world, I wanted to think about the happiest thing. And that to me was a chocolate chip cookie. Also, I've been playing around with him on my sub stack, making all sorts of different versions. But you could have done a cookie book.

57:30I mean, and we talked to Vaughn about his great book and like many other books have been cookie centric. And those books are robust. But like thinking deeply about something that we may think as a singular recipe, perhaps the Toll House cookie. You're shaking your head in no. You're giving me a no. Explain. It's a polite no. It's just a, well, why don't we discuss this? I would say that, first of all, when I talk to say to people, oh, I've written a chocolate chip cookie book, more often than not, their response is, that's my favorite cookie. Right? I don't need any other cookie. I went to my endocrinologist.

58:09Okay, this is a guy who should not be encouraging cookie eating. And he was like, I shouldn't say this, but it's my favorite cookie, you know? I talked to like General Mark Hurtling, and I was talking to him about them. And he was like, we were talking about the war in Ukraine. And then I obviously did like some really clever segue. It was. You're great on the mic. So, yeah, totally. It was not gauche or anything. And I said, oh, gosh, what do you think about – what's your favorite cookie or whatever? And he goes, oh. And it's like whole countenance changed. They talked about chocolate chip cookies.

58:48There are so many different ways to make a chocolate chip cookie, so many different textures, flavors, different ways of making it appealing to a person that I really could have gone far beyond the 60 recipes or so that are in the book. I bet. So let's talk about the recipes. When you're outlining the book, how do you organize the book? And what did you really want to feature and prove that there are a hundred chocolate cookie recipes in our world? I wanted to feature it by texture. I knew that from the beginning. Love that. Because that's really – if I say to you what's your favorite chocolate chip cookie, everybody has an opinion also on what it has to be, right?

59:36Yeah. So I thought I'd divide it up that way. So you can approach the – I approached the cookies by soft, thin and crispy, crunchy, which I had an argument with my editor about. She's like, well, people know what that means. And I'm like, chocolate chip. Crunch chewy. We know what that means. Crunch chewy is amazing. Amazing. And it's now a word. Yeah. Let the Oxford Dictionary know. Yeah. It's now a word. And crunchy is sort of my favorite. I don't want to get ahead of the game, but that's really my favorite. And also the different flavors that you can put into it if you want to go kind of wild with it, right?

1:00:12Raspberry, hazelnut, pistachio, toffee, coconut, all those things. But the start of each chapter is the basic for that. Yeah. So you can, the basic thin and crispy, the basic crunchy and it goes from there. And then it kind of goes into different, you know, add-ons. Coffee, cardamom or whatever. Yeah, of course. Cardamom is a great addition to make something a little, you know, that like, I would say like a definitive spice, but not something that takes you to the holidays. Right. Which I like about cardamom a lot. So Vaughn made a very, very, you know, clear assertion that he's pro-chewy. Like he's like the chewy chocolate chip cookie is the only is the way not the only way but the way.

1:00:55What do you think? I like the chewy center and the crunchy outside. So crunchy. Crunchy. Yeah. Yeah. I really do. I think I know this isn't like NASA and we're just talking about baking. But I think there's been a lot of technical improvements in the making of chocolate chip cookies. Yeah. Due to great people like Stella Parks out there who and other people who have messed around with different things that you add to your cookie in small amounts. And like for me, I add malted milk powder to a cookie to help make it really chewy. And I brown the butter to lose some of the water, which is also going to ensure it's chewy.

1:01:40And then I put in an egg yolk instead of a whole egg. I also add an egg. But to increase the protein, which is going to make it chewier. And the way I use baking powder and baking soda to get a rise, but not too much in a spread. But it's like it's a fun – it's about as fun a science project as anything. And I hope that people get from the book that they should mess around with the recipes too. I love it. I'm linking to the book in the show notes by it. It's a really nice addition to Yvonne's book if you want to really up your cookie game. I mean, I'm trying to win our holiday cookie competition.

1:02:18Talked with Vonna a little bit about it. I got second last year. What did you make? I made a Muddy Buddy Puppy Chow cookie. Oh. So leaned heavily into the peanut butter chocolate, had some texture in there, seemed to work. But I want first. I want first this year. Okay, so how am I going to do it? Are you sure that the person who won last year didn't pay people off? It's anonymous. I made sure of that. I mean, we didn't have like observers who were there at the ballots. Do you need me to be an observer? I think I need to come in on behalf of the UN cookie. I actually was talking to the organizers.

1:02:56Like, can we invite a couple of authors? And they're like, no, this is company only. We want to keep it like real and legit. And it's only for the employees company. We don't need ringers in here. You are a ringer if you're involved. That's true. I would be. But for my book, I would think the cheesecake chocolate chip cookie bars are quite delectable. You read my mind. I love that one. I was thinking about that one a lot. If you can enter – I mean, I think of a bar cookie is – I mean, it has the word cookie in it, so it's – Bars are acceptable in this competition. Very good. I'm glad. First of all, cheesecake.

1:03:35Second of all, chocolate chip cookie. Yeah. Is it difficult? No. None of my recipes are difficult. Well, I mean, it's true because it doesn't feel like you're returning multiple pages for it. This one has two pages, but that's fine. I mean, what's the key with incorporating cream cheese into a bar? Because I think we have our idea of what a cream cheese bar should be like texture-wise, and I'm kind of a little intimidated by it. First of all, make sure your ingredients are all room temperature so that they blend nicely. So oftentimes I'm in a rush and I end up with like little bits and I hope nobody sees them.

1:04:11I'm just being honest, people. And then you really have to watch with this because it's not as much cheesecake as you're used to baking that it doesn't overbake. That is the thing. I think keeping your eye on the prize. Little jiggle. Little jiggle. And then you pull it. It's a little jiggle. Is that right? Little jiggle. That's when you know. It should be just a jiggle in the center. Just a jiggle in the center. A little jiggle. That's clarification. These are the tips I need to kind of get to number one. Did Vaughn have a recommendation? Vaughn did. We talked about a couple ideas. I think incorporating coffee flavors was his idea, which I thought was smart.

1:04:48I think incorporating. I mean, I think you win a competition by having familiarity first and second, intrigue. And third, like I think salt. Salt is really. People love that surprise of salt. It can never go wrong on any cookie, by the way. I didn't bring this up. You were so kind and generous. You sent me some cookies, which I thought was so nice. And I brought them home to my wife. I gave folks in the office. Producer Clayton had some as well. And the first note that I have is that these are well salted. Thank you. And that's the way. It has to be, especially. And also the other thing about most of my cookies is they aren't sickly sweet.

1:05:32Because I just don't like that in a cookie, right? So there's a lot of balance of like caramel notes and like brown sugar, which are all say sweet, but not too much. And they're balanced with salt and the right use of chocolate. Yeah, the right use of chocolate. And the right use of chocolate is what? I would imagine it's maybe staying away from the chips and going with the bars. Hey, there are great chips out there. In fact, I used – I'd happened to like win some competition before this book. And Ghirardelli sent me like 50 pounds of discs, chocolate discs, which were fabulous to bake with. Yeah.

1:06:11So it's basically like a big melted chocolate chip cookie – chocolate chip. Yeah. Those were really fun to bake with. If you're listening, Ghirardelli, thank you. I do mean to write you a note. You're doing your job by seeing the brand on a podcast. Yeah, there you go. The influencer marketing has worked for them. Yay. But I really like buying a big hunking chunk of chocolate and slicing it so I can get all sorts of different textures. There are chefs out there who are very particular and say to sift the chocolate so that you get the dust away and end up with a very neat cookie. And I'm all for that if you are presenting them to the Queen of England or the King of England.

1:06:50King of England, yeah. But I'm all for just like, let's get it all in there. And I just love the difference between little bits of chocolate. And for me, in my crunchy cookie of great fantasy, like the one I will pick off the tray to eat is the one with a giant seam of gooey chocolate in it. So what's the knife cut then with a bar? You're looking at the bar, you open it up, and, you know, I'm thinking I need to rough chop this, but there's a lot of ways you can rough chop. Yeah. You can – I mean, for like the bar? Yeah. I would rough – I always do it on an angle. Yeah. Like this so that I get small pieces, but not, I mean, so I don't get the giant pieces.

1:07:29I also like playing around with bars because I can get lots of different flavors in there. The cookies that I'm going home to bake off because they rested overnight in the fridge because you should try that. Then you always have cookies in your fridge. Yeah. The ones I'm going home to bake off for like some videos that I'm doing have chunks of dark chocolate, like the big Trader Joe's. Yeah. Pound plus bar. And Tony's Chocolonely, they do a milk with hazelnut. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that's a really chunky bar. So you get these nice chunks of milk and dark chocolate in this. Tony Chocolonely just as a snacking bar.

1:08:09I mean, my heart beats for that. Me too. Have you ever had their gingerbread? Yes, I have. It's only seasonal. I look for it every time. I'm either at the grocery store. I think Starbucks sells it sometimes. I think it's just about the time that they release those. I order them. So that's smart, actually. I could actually order them and plan. You could order them, yes. They're my favorite. Me too. The gingerbreads are so good. And I think it also has a Christmas tree in the middle. It does. It has those patterns. What a great, what a cool company. Yeah. I really, really like this tip, and I've absolutely never thought about this, and it's kind of insane.

1:08:43You are like, at the beginning of the book, you're like, make sure your baking powder and baking soda are not out of date. I mean, I've been definitely baking with out of date everything. Sorry, admitting. It's good. But now what are you going to go do? Buy fresh, especially with cookie season coming up on us. I think a lot of people don't bake every single day of the week. So they're digging into the cupboard and they're like, was this in the back of my fridge for the baking soda? or was it really something I should use? And it's not a big investment. It's not. Get the fresh stuff, your cookies, your cakes.

1:09:21You know when your cake doesn't really do what it's supposed to? Your muffins don't look as grand as they could. That's such a great tip. I mean, I should not use the baking powder from last season. You can test it. You can test baking soda the way you do in chemistry class with a little bit of vinegar. and if it fizzes away, great. Baking powder you can put in hot water. And if it bubbles away, for a little bit, it won't last for a long time. Then it's fresh. So you don't necessarily have to throw it out. But you're there. You're buying some new flour. Do that too. You're buying new flour for sure.

1:09:58That's important. But just pick up a couple new containers of that. Very, very good tip. The other point I wanted to talk about, and Vonna and I touched on it, But you have some other thoughts is this idea of baking with dark pans. Like you're shaking your head. Exactly. I feel like we kind of exclusively bake with dark pans in the like novice world of baking. But you're like, no. What should we be baking with? No, you should go to Costco. They're having a sale right now. The big Nordicware or any brand that has a heavy half sheet pan that's nice and bright and silver. If you have some cruddy dark ones, save them for roasting your vegetables.

1:10:40Yeah. And that's what they should be used for. Same with your cake pans. Yeah. Especially if you have one of those like a pound cake or something, try and get a shiny pan. It's going to make your crust eat more even as well. And less likely you're going to burn them. Because dark absorbs heat. It's going to cook that bottom of your cookie really fast. Yeah, and we see that a lot when we're using dark cookware, bakeware, is you think it's like, okay, it's like still like not done, but then you pull it out and you're like, oh, man. Right. They're dark. They're dark. And remember also there's bakeover.

1:11:18So like take that cookie out. It's going to keep cooking. If you want to like make sure that you're not taking it out when you think it looks perfect, take it out a little before it looks perfect. Think about scrambled eggs. I think maybe there's more scrambled eggs makers than bakers on this show. Right, right, right. You want to pull that when it's like still a little bit unset and then it'll finish cooking. Great tip. Also, great tip about the scrambled eggs. Oh, you got to pull those early because you know. We know what happens. I mean, so light bakeware, definitely replace baking soda and baking powder.

1:11:50A third tip. Just something that we maybe, you know, fuck up a little bit and we need some help. Butter temperature. Yes. Butter temperature is what I think kind of messes people up the most. some people say start with cold butter I'm not of that I mean if you want to eat the cookies right away and you're like desperate you're jonesing for them you need them start with some cold butter and make sure you beat it so that it incorporates some of the sugar me I love cookie I love I insist actually that I refrigerate my cookie dough if your butter is too warm it will not incorporate the sugar well.

1:12:32So there is that fine line. So what is too warm? Is too warm like... You put your finger and it goes... Listen for that sound, people. Yeah, great audio. You're a pro podcaster here. I love that. So not that, but definitely not hard. Definitely not hard. No. And you can always just cut it up, put it on the counter. I never put whole sticks of butter into my mixer. I always cut it up so it's easier for it to blend. And the thing I think they cut a lot of out of that I put into my regular, my own edited recipes on Substack is always be scraping. Always be scraping down those sides of your pan because there's – we all know that there's that little like cave, that little – I don't know.

1:13:22It's like a – Crevice at the bottom and you're like, oh. It's a flower corridor, a crevice. A flower corridor. Yeah, it's something like that. Yeah, you want to make sure it's all really nicely incorporated. You don't want to see any white dust on your batter. So butter, really important. And a lot of my recipes use melted butter, which is a really fun thing to do. But let that cool before you. So, yeah. So if you're doing a full melt, like it can't be bubbling or hot. You definitely don't want that. You'll just separate and it'll be an icky mess. And you'll be like, Marissa, what? I like just having hot water and then putting the plate of the butter above the hot water bowl.

1:13:56Just bowl. That's the way I do it. And you get it down to room temperature. Yeah, that's the way. If you don't have time on your temperature, if your house is not that warm, you know. Mine isn't. You know, that's the thing about houses, right? They're never warm. We're like, it's December 1st, and it's like we're in this season, and it's just— I'm so cold. My wife loves cold. I don't. I've come to that realization. That's why we wear sweatshirts. Yeah. So all you out there in not cold areas, you know, you guys are a bit in it. You're lucky because there's probably less fighting in your household.

1:14:27Less sweaters, too. All right. So it's December 1st today. I want to know what's your schedule like for the next 31 days in terms of baking? Like, what is it looking like for you? There's a lot. I've already stocked up on butter. I go to Costco. I buy all the Kirkland butter and I buy Kerrygold, which is less expensive there. So expensive. It's so expensive. For the really special stuff, gets the Kerrygold like a shortbread. Yeah. The other stuff where it's got a lot of other flavors, Kirkland unsalted will do just fine. And I'm baking all the time. I mean, if I'm not creating a cookie, and I'm also, my sub stack is all about cookies, cookies, cookies, cookies.

1:15:04Yep, yep, yep. And on top of new recipes, my family demands the old favorites. So it's, you know, I got a lot of people to please. Do you do a cookie box? I don't. That's fair. I don't, mostly because. You're like working and you're separating the work from, I get it. Believe me, I get it. I'd love to. I have fantasies about it every October. And I'm like, I would buy these tins. I think I'd line it up like this. Yeah. Nah, nah, nah. Okay, one more question. Parchment or do you use the mats? Parchment. Love it. Me too. I prefer parchment. I love that. Get the big rolls, cut them in advance, have it all ready to go.

1:15:45Do you have a cookie competition in your future this year? I did a cookie competition as a part of my book tour. And I'm happy to do it any other place. It was so much fun. I was at a Frenchtown bookshop, and people came to hear me talk, but they also brought their own favorite chocolate chip cookie recipe, and we had a contest. Oh, my goodness. You judged? I judged 20 different cookies. That's amazing. Yeah. Do you remember which one won the general direction of that one? Yeah, it was a woman who had browned her butter, and it was a very chewy cookie. Yeah. It was a really good cookie. Yeah, and salt on top.

1:16:23It's all about the salt. It's all about the salt. Think of the competition. It can't be flat. It has to have that punch to it. The va-va-va-voomski. Marissa, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you so much.

1:16:40This Is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, Director of Media Production and Development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. Local design by Ellie Skrzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.