700: Elbow Bread's Zoë Kanan Makes the Case for the Knish

33:40and there's this whole documentary called Deli Man, I think, about Ziggy, who's one of the owners. And so I had knishes on the menu there and they were homemade. And it was the kind of thing that appealed to me as a kid because it's like potatoes baked in dough. Starch on starch. Exactly. It's like sort of a dream dish and a dream baked good. But I basically was like, Like this is it feels in New York, especially like a fixture of Jewish baking. But you wouldn't really know that from the way that they like it's hard to sort of. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So like Yonah Schimmel, for example, is a very famous knish bakery on Houston.

34:28Honestly, I don't know if it's still open because whenever I walk by it, it's closed. But in 2017, when I moved to New York, I moved to that neighborhood. I would always be walking down the street craving knish. And you receive it, and I say this with love, but it just doesn't look good. It's like a grapefruit. It's like kind of soggy. Like it's like wrapped in like, I don't know, some sheet of paper. Like it's just like in theory really good, but in practice it's like a lot for one person to eat, you know? Exactly. And it's like, yeah, so maybe— Did I say that okay? I think you said that. Yeah, you took the words out of my mouth basically.

35:03And I think I want so much in my heart to like love a knish because I love everything about it. But I was not finding one that sort of spoke to me. And it just felt like it was ready for a revamp. And we see that with so many. I mean, obviously you see that with bagels. And I mean, knish are never like at the level of bagel as far as like. Are people like a dense food, I would say? Yeah. The densest foods. The densest foods. The most filling foods. And also, like, made with inexpensive ingredients. So, yeah, I just, I knew off the bat that I identified that as something that I felt like would just be easy to improve upon.

35:54So what is the elbow condition, its current form? So the elbow condition, its current form is made with this. I started with the filling, which is made with roasted Yukon gold potatoes. So we just started by roasting the potatoes rather than like boiling or steaming them. So they just taste more potato-y. And then I decided to add sauerkraut for some balance, like a little bit of acidity. and then to sort of match that we added caramelized onions for some sweetness and then a ton of dill and I think fresh dill is I was like the knish is just like desperate for something fresh about it yeah and so the dill just made so much sense I'm always using like a dill with a heavy hand so to me I actually it seemed like a normal amount of dill but it's since been described as very dill heavy.

36:56It gives it like a chicken noodle soup feel. Is there any schmaltz in it? There's no schmaltz in it. It tastes like it to me. Yeah, it has a lot of clarified butter in it. And so I think that that is, it's golden in a similar way. And then And we use a ton of black pepper because I think often with these foods, you find that they're like, they're sort of like lacking freshness or they're lacking seasoning. So I started with that approach. And then I went to the pastry and I did some research before sort of embarking on developing the recipe. I use the Ratner's cookbook a lot. I don't know it. Yeah, so Ratner's was a, like a kosher dairy restaurant that was on the Lower East Side for many years.

37:53And I had always, I'd also had on my list to work on an onion roll, which was, they were really known for. And I think you just like got onion rolls with your meal. It was like a bread basket kind of thing. And it was like dried onions, rehydrated maybe and baked into challah. and so I had that on my list as something to work on and I was just looking through their cookbook and saw they had like a knish dough recipe they had a strudel dough recipe um and so I decided to try different pastries um and I I'd done them before with almost like a pie dough but it just like wasn't I wanted it to be crispier yeah um and just kind of work on work on its texture game because it is prone to being so soggy.

38:45So after some like experimentation, I ended up kind of using the Ratner's strudel dough recipe as it's like right next to the knish dough recipe in the book or something as a jumping off point and made the first ones in my apartment, like on my coffee table putting like a sheet down um it's very like theatrical and yeah it just was like it felt so perfect and as as a concept to be like making that uh like on the corner of canal and Ludlow and just um there's just this theatrical element to it that makes everyone like I was just excited to bring that to a production environment, if that makes sense.

39:33Yeah. And the other element of the, not to talk about the canish for all podcasts, but I do think it's so perfect. The size of it also, I think, is really cool because it's maybe like palm size, depending on if you have a smaller hand, which is maybe half the size of what I would expect it to be. Yeah, exactly. It was like, and I think that also helps with the crispy sort of, you know, goal that we have for like maintaining that kind of like diversity of texture. but yeah they get really really soggy I think also at Yona Shemul they microwave them um which probably do yeah which is nice to have it warm um but then you do lose like any texture that it once had so um I wanted to make them smaller also mainly because I wanted people to be able to have more you know of our more things on our menu um rather than just like okay the knish is what I'm gonna eat today yeah over three meals of the day exactly and to like you know leave them wanting more uh-huh okay I'm glad we got to go deep on this and now I have to ask you about my other pet favorite menu item which is the walnut sandwich yes that was another that was another one that was like very very early on in the like menu development can you give us the breakdown of what's in it yeah so the sandwich itself is on our black bread which is a sourdough bread that we make um that is seasoned with anise and caraway it's a sourdough bread um it uses a rye sour and so we do loaves of that then we slice it pretty thinly and it has a layer of ben's cream cheese.

41:18Then it has a layer of dates that have been kind of pressed into this like thin, we use medjool dates, so they're really like sticky and gooey. And then it has this walnut butter, which is like walnuts that are ground down into a nut butter with a little bit of brown sugar and salt. And then the, I think like the key element is that we fold in this fouillotine, which is a pretty common pastry ingredient you see it in like entremets you see it in in french um and like viennese desserts and it's just this like flaky crispy crepe and it kind of tastes like a fortune cookie yeah like wafer wafer like it just has kind of a blank slate taste and so we fold that into the nut butter and that is the a layer in the sandwich um and that's the sandwich and it has It has about 12, like, references, I would say, in terms of how it came to be as an entity.

42:24I'm picturing your, like, walls with sandwiches up on them and, like, the yarn connecting them all together. That's exactly. That's my brain. What was, like, the Genesis sandwich? The Genesis sandwich. We're getting so biblical. I know. I mean, this is, like, but truly this is, like, how I think about this stuff. And then I have to try to like, like, okay, and now we're going to make, we're going to produce this in the bakery every day. Absolutely. Exactly. But it's, so the Genesis was, this is like similar to Ratner's, like looking at these kind of like, like slightly deeper cuts of like New York, like food culture with like Jewish elements.

43:05So Chalkful and Nuts was – you see it in the grocery store as like a coffee brand. They started as like a nut – like a hot nut like street cart. Oh, you're kidding. That makes so much sense. And yeah. And so that's – and so then they like evolved from that, their business, into these like cafes. And they used to serve coffee and like a little bit of food. I think they also served nuts, but they were, like, very much, like, a morning, like, you know, commuter, like, spot where you would get your coffee. I think, like, heavenly coffee or something. They had some, like, slogan like that. And they had two sandwiches and one, and they were sweet sandwiches.

43:54So one was on this. The sandwiches are, like, very similar. But one was on date nut bread. And then it had a layer of cream cheese. And that was the whole sandwich. Okay. So, like, you could say, is that a sandwich or is that just, like, a piece of bread with something, like, smeared on it? But I guess if it's closed face, then we won't get into that. And then they had another one. Oh, they had another one. And I can't remember what bread the other one was. But it was, like, it was a raisin bread, I think. And then it had a cream cheese that had walnuts like folded into it. So these were like their two sandwiches.

44:41And so I knew I wanted to use, I was like thinking about things my grandmother would have for breakfast. And like the sort of the like things that you see on deli menus and like the coffee shop section, like things that like elderly people order. I just seem like drawn to those kind of dusty corners of menus. And yeah, so I knew I wanted to use those flavors and something. I love cream cheese, too, and sneak that into so many things. So yeah, I started working with Kirsten Brewer, who is the chef at S &P. And we did a little bit of R &D together. They have a cream cheese sandwich on their menu.

45:21They do with olive. They have like an olive. Yeah, I've never ventured to try that one. But I respect that they do it. They do it. And like I think there are people that still go there that like that's their order. I've seen it. Yeah. I couldn't look away. I'm like I want the little Shonda and pancakes and a Diet Coke. I get tuna melt. Tuna melt. Rugula. Yeah. Larry's rugula. Yeah. So I was telling Kirsten about this sandwich. And so I was like I want to rework it some way. So we tried it. We tried putting dates in the black bread, which was good. But because you have to bake sourdoughs like so hot and for a long time, they were kind of like burning and it just seemed complicated to get that right.

46:06And so we ended up just kind of going in a date paced direction and in making this nut butter. and I'm trying to remember the idea of the fuitine was like just kind of a like it I don't know it just came from within I don't know how I I like maybe we were eating it and I was like it's so rich it needs texture like it needs something to break it up a little bit because nut butter and cream cheese together is like not necessarily like in my head I might be like oh that is gonna be too over the top yeah and it kind of is but i think the bread really helps also because it's this like savory hearty bread exactly and like crusty so yeah we so folding fuitine into into nut butter was a technique i first learned at milk bar and it was something we used in a cake we made this banana cake and it had um a layer of it was like hazelnut praline with fouillotine folded which is like the most common application I've seen for that so yeah it was like that was always my favorite part of that cake um and why not bring that into this other sort of format of a sandwich which is kind of like a layer cake yeah oh I love that such a full circle moment too yeah okay so those are my like pet favorites on the menu is there anything that you guys are doing that you think is like a pet favorite of yours right now or is something that you think is kind of special yeah I mean I feel so I was talking to my bakers to I was talking to the elbows bakers um the other day about this because we we have such a long menu and they're always like nagging me because we I feel like we have so much on our menu and I I am just like, I don't know how to take things off.

48:04I know how to add things. I like struggle to remove things. And we have so many regulars and I don't want to disappoint them or take away their favorite thing. uh but i would say right now i love our cake donuts that we're doing on the weekends which are not necessarily like so specific to um you know to the kind of like jewish american elements of the menu that are kind of the mainstay like the bialis and um and the roll the onion roll which is like became a scallion knot um and the rugala and babka and all of that is like really core menu items and then the donuts are something that we do on the weekends yeah and we do these cake donuts which is like i was never a cake donut person before but worked out a donut for that doing pop-ups um because it's easier to execute than a yeasted donut on the day of and and just kind of fell in love with them in that process and um that's been a really fun one because it's always on the menu but we are like changing the flavors every yeah that sounds like a nice thing for your staff because then you can get the itch of doing something new but it's like an ever-evolving thing I had one over the summer that was the I guess it was early fall the um corn what was that yeah the cornbread the cornbread donut yeah I just knew when I saw that, like that just speaks to my soul.

49:37And it's so it's like also that kind of salty sweet like combination. What's the seasonal version of that you're doing right now? So right now we're doing our like triple apple cider is what we call it, which is the first one we ever did. And it has like apple butter in it. It has like reduced cider in it. It's like glazed with cider jelly. like it's pretty commonplace that so many of the things we make have like all these different like additional steps to them. The cornbread was, I feel like we really had a corn dessert moment. I think corn desserts have been on the come up for the past couple summers and this summer was easily the most corn desserts I've experienced, which I really like corn as a dessert flavor.

50:22So I think that's why I was so excited about the donut. Yeah. And I know that it exists and desserts like in so many yeah and then like korea it's very popular yeah yeah like all kinds of asian desserts too and um yeah and it's like a flavor that i think of too like at milk bar we made the corn cookie which was always my favorite cookie yes and um so it's been like part of the sort of mental pantry of flavors that i like bring with me and yeah i think i was inspired in part by this um like i wanted to use sweet corn i wanted to use this corn meal from um patrick at brooklyn granary um which is a really really beautiful like freshly ground corn corn meal and um yeah just bring in the sweet savory element and it has tons of fresh corn pureed into it too yeah that's so great i'm curious it's been i guess a year almost a year since opening yeah What does it feel like at this stage?

51:29Is it what you imagined it would be? It's so, like, we just had our one-year anniversary at the end of October. And it's, like, so hard for me to answer that because it's, like, it's been, like, the longest and shortest year ever. That's been my, like, phrase that I've been using. Because similarly to today, I feel like since the bakery opened, I just, like, kind of started talking. And I like never stopped talking for the entire year in like many different capacities. So I feel like it kind of rewired my brain in a lot of ways. But it feels like I think I had no idea what it would feel like.

52:20to I had like seen people running businesses and been part of the team behind that and I was also worked in a lot of places that were kind of like owned and like were operated by the people who own them and that those were the places that I was always like the most drawn to and I think it's felt really good to just have this kind of like build this universe where I can like all the ideas that I have had and developed can just kind of live in this world that's how it started out and then what's been surprised like such a wonderful like experiences getting to see how like it really takes shape based on the people that work there um and their contributions and how like we work together um and the ideas that they bring the improvements that they bring um and and then also as someone who used to do a lot of pop-ups and like go into other people's spaces being able to like be a place that can host that yeah um i I think Elbow has really become in a year one of the bakeries that seems to be hosting people the most when people come in from out of town and they want to do a pop-up somewhere.

53:45It's really nice to see that kind of sharing happening. Yeah, it's so much fun. It's one of my favorite things about the baking community, although we do collaborate with people who are like outside of the baking world too. um but yeah it's it's so much fun to get to invite those people in and and just have a mind meld and um and and just grateful that we have enough of an audience um there that people like come up come out for these things yeah i'm curious you know i've being someone who's worked in so many of these different spaces in new york over the past 15 years like what is this current moment in the New York City baking scene feel like to you?

54:29It's, you know, it's so, like I loved going to look at the elbow space and like running into other bakers who were opening their own places and most of them like for the first time. It feels like we're really in this heyday of baking and there's always been, I've seen a lot of like, that's been mentioned a lot and I've seen some pushback on that too, saying that there's always been great baking in yeah there's the cupcake era exactly magnolia bakery yeah but yeah like cronuts and i mean i think about city bakery and that i loved the i love the baked goods there that's always the chocolate the chocolate cookie the chocolate cookie the coconut cookie yeah but i think the amount of independent small like baker owned bakeries or restaurant groups that are partnering with bakeries.

55:26I do think this moment is different. I agree. I think it's, I think there's, yeah, you see that arrangement a lot more. And when I opened Elbow, I talked to other baker friends who are in similar partnerships to just learn more about how that works and yeah it's exciting that restaurant groups and people want to back these spaces and there's it's and it's great that there's I think precedent now for for those kinds of businesses thriving and being successful um and yeah I think there's just a lot of there's a lot of like personality and and experimentation those are like two words that I think of and like those are that's what I love and what I like strive to bring to Elbow and try to like encourage that to with the people that bake within Elbow.

56:23And I love seeing that in a lot of the bakeries that we're opening in New York now. I love that. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables and little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner. Yeah, man, I have so been there.

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58:18So right now. Your favorite cookbook? Favorite cookbook. Or a favorite cookbook? A favorite cookbook. Favorite cookbook. I really love Gina De Palma's books. Famed pastry chef of Babo. And I learned about her mainly through Melissa Weller. And I think her books are not in print anymore, so you have to look hard for them. But they're wonderful. Set your eBay alerts. Yeah, exactly. Your favorite food neighborhood in New York? Favorite food neighborhood in New York is the East Village. Favorite quick lunch spot in New York? Quick lunch spot would be Carol's Bun, which is around the corner from Elbow.

59:04Your favorite occasion restaurant? Occasion restaurant is Cafe Subarsky if your occasion is before 8 p.m. And involves strudel. And involves strudel. Exactly. Anything involving strudel is an occasion. Yeah, that is the occasion. A favorite bar in New York? Favorite bar in New York is, it's a restaurant too, but Ruffian, drinking wine at Ruffian. A favorite bakery that's not in New York? Favorite bakery not in New York is Comadre in Austin. by Mariela, who is, I feel like, such a kind of kindred spirit. We just got to spend some time together recently and just love everything that she's making there.

59:48Okay, finally, a fictional food scene, like from a book or a movie or something made up that you wish you could eat in real life. Okay, so this is, I feel like my spin on it is like, this is something that I saw in a movie that I made in real life at Elbow which is the Charlotte Roos scene which is in Once Upon a Time in America which is a Sergio Leone movie from the 80s but it's about like italian americans jewish americans on the lower east side um i think it spans a few different eras anyway so patsy goes to as like a young kid goes to this bakery goes to this bakery um and get a little cake and a little cake and a little cake term streamlined um and it's in a little push-up cup and it's like a disc of cake jam cream on top and you would find them at like italian american jewish american bakeries i think they cost like a nickel or something like in this category of like nickel treats um and yeah he just there's a whole context that i won't go into in the scene everyone should watch it um but he just like ends of eating this cake, like, alone in a staircase of, like, a tenement building.

1:01:25And there's, like, Ennio Morricone, like, playing in the background. Anyway, so I totally romanticized that. And, like, we made Charlotte Roos at Elbow because of that scene, basically. I love that kind of wish fulfillment and that you have your own space to do that. Zoe, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks, Eliza. Grayson Samuels, this is Tase. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Thanks for having me. I'm super happy to have you here. You're one of my favorite writers to edit at Tase and just kind of people to chat with. And you came bearing pastries, which is always extra nice.

1:02:02I did some good stuff from my favorite Italian bakery on Court Street. Yeah, what's your plan when you go into an Italian bakery? What kinds of things do you gravitate towards? Rainbow cookie, number one. But then I just sort of like leave it to who's behind the counter. I usually want like a mixed box of cookies like that. And I'm just like, give me your best stuff. And then I trust them. And you go by weight that you want or something. I was like, I want a pound of mixed cookies. She said, say less. And there we are. Shout out to Court Street Pastry Shop and Carol Gardens. My favorite. I love that.

1:02:32I think it's certainly a little bit of a sugar rush for me right now, which is a good place to be chatting from. And I have a lot of different topics I want to get into with you. But I guess to start, I'm wondering if you can share an early food memory with me from growing up that you think somehow encapsulates your perspective on food. Yeah. It's not one that I, like, grew up eating. It's not something I grew up eating. But the Travel Channel was huge for me and the way that they covered food. Specifically, Andrew Zimmern really, really loved his show. And Samantha Brown, who is still making a show, she makes a show called Places to Love, which is on season nine.

1:03:09But sort of in like her heyday when I was probably like seven to 11, she had two big shows. It was called Great Hotels and Passport to Europe. And on both, she would like, you know, Great Hotels, she would go to Great Hotels and she would sort of tour the space, try the restaurants. And in Passport to Europe, she would go to European cities and sort of, you know, work through the city. But I think the way that like both of them explored food, it was always about like the people behind it who was making the food. And they approached them with like such kindness and curiosity and like a way to really get to know the person.

1:03:46And it made me really excited about food, specifically Samantha Brown. Like she was really, really formative. She made me really excited to travel, made me excited to try different things at a young age. And she lives in my neighborhood now. and every now and then I see her on the street and I'll just like stop her and be like, I love your show. I've done this a few times. I don't know if she remembers. By the third time, she's like, Grayson, I get it, you're a fan. No, I know. I'm like, I just think she's fantastic. And yeah, her show is so formative and it really sparked a love of just getting to know people through what they're eating.

1:04:21And you were watching this like in the living room in St. Petersburg, Florida, where you grew up? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, my family's like big TV room and I'd like, you know, get home after school, make a grilled cheese. And I'd sort of, you know, put the DVR onto great hotels. And I was like, I was really, really obsessed with her to a point of when we would like go to Orlando on vacation. And if we were like going to a hotel that she had stayed at, I would go to the room that she had stayed in, like on the show and just sort of like touch the door. Just in like a Samantha Brown was here. It was major.

1:04:56It was wild. You're so cute. Oh, my God. This is like really my dream eight-year-old child is going on a pilgrimage to a TV channel's hotel room. Yeah, it's like really niche and like super gay, of course. Yeah, I mean, that's my dream child. So I kind of love that. I feel like it's interesting to think about travel and hotels as a kid that doesn't really have access to those things necessarily. Do you feel like you had a moment later on maybe, I don't know, did you go to Europe and feel like you were in your TV channel moment? Or how did you kind of evolve that relationship over time? Yeah, certainly.

1:05:32I mean, I had access to travel as a child. We would go to Orlando a lot, which was really great. But I think like once I was able to sort of get out of the country, I remember going to Europe maybe, I think the first time we went to London when I was like in fifth grade. And I really loved that. And I loved the food. I just loved like being in a different culture, being in a different environment that was so different from like the Gulf beaches of Florida. And then I went to like France and Spain and high school. And I think it's funny to do that like as a teenager with your parents because you're just like a little angsty and a little like mad the whole time.

1:06:14But it does make you want to like explore yourself as a person more at that age in a different setting. That was pretty cool. So I'm getting like kind of the storytelling roots maybe that trickle into who you are today. Another big part of your identity, I think, is as a pastry chef and a baker. And I'm wondering if you just tell me a little bit about what was your background like? Maybe I know you have some theater background and then kind of like how that came into food as well. Yeah, absolutely. So I started acting as a probably like nine-year-old, ten-year-old, just like summer camp. And I really like stuck to it for a really long time.

1:06:51And before that, funny enough, I wanted to be a writer. There's a great writing institute in St. Petersburg called the Poynter Institute. And I would do summer camps there. I think I did that for a few years. And I really like wanted to go into journalism when I was really, really young. And then I remember like, I have a memory of being in my living room. and my mom had brought up a summer camp at the St. Petersburg City Theater and they were doing Oliver. And she was like, you should do that. I think you'd be really good at this. And I remember being like, no, I don't want to do that. I want to be a writer.

1:07:22I don't want to be an actor. And she was like, you should just try it. Maybe get some energy out. And I went and I was cast as the 60-year-old villain in Oliver. Every mom's dream. As a 12-year-old, of course. And I loved it. I loved like just stepping into like a different world. And more so I love just the community aspect of it and being around other kids that had a lot of energy and wanted a place to get it out. And so I really stuck to that for a really long time. I did a lot of community theater and I went to a performing arts high school. And then I got my BFA in musical theater at Texas State University.

1:08:05and when I graduated and I got to New York City, the sort of reality of the business of theater hit me like a brick wall and it was like the hardest few months of my life just understanding that like this might be harder than I thought it was going to be. I don't have any other skills, didn't do anything else for over a decade and that was really tough. So during COVID, I wanted to sort of step into cooking a little bit. I knew I wanted to work in a kitchen in New York in some capacity. When I was living in Texas, I was south of Austin, and I was really, really into the McGuire Mormon hospitality group in Austin, which owns Elizabeth Street Cafe, June's All Day, Joanne's Fine Foods.

1:08:54And I don't know, I think they really showed me for the first time the sort of like intersection between restaurants and theater in the same way that like a play is its own world, its own story on stage. A restaurant is the same thing. And the sort of like step into a restaurant that feels like its own world where all of these aspects are coming together to tell one story. I saw those similarities instantly. and that made me really, I don't know, invested in exploring food in some way and didn't really have a goal of what I wanted to do. I didn't know if I wanted to do like front of house or back of house.

1:09:36But when I was living in Florida, I worked at a bakery for about eight months. So that sort of put me like on the pastry route. And then when I moved back to New York, I was like looking at pastry cook jobs and I joined the team at Gage and Tolner. And that's when it sort of moved on from there. Yeah, it's really interesting. I think you're right. There is such a pageantry and showmanship to running a restaurant, being in theater. And certainly there's a long tradition of actors working as servers, I think, especially. So it's interesting to me that you chose to go back of house and work in pastry.

1:10:11And Gage and Tolner is like, to me, one of the most cinematic theatrical restaurants in New York. It's so historic as a dining room. And a lot of the pastry specifically, like Baked Alaska, like she's the diva of the dessert menu. In a big way. Yeah. What was it like working there? And I guess what drew you to the pastry side specifically? I don't know. I love dessert. I just, I love it a lot. I think I love the technique behind pastry. I liked that a lot of it felt, A lot of it consisted of like more like slower daytime prep. It wasn't so like intense as like cooking during dinner, even though I did end up doing a bit of that at Gage.

1:10:52Working at Gage was fascinating. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done. I had not worked in fine dining before like going to Gage or working in, you know, a bigger restaurant. And Caroline Schiff, who was the pastry chef there at the time, I met with her. and it was exciting. She was saying like, this is going to be a really buzzy restaurant opening and it's going to be a really exciting time. I interviewed right before, or right after they had reopened, sort of right before the New York Times review had come out. I went back and trailed. I remember like plating for Adam Platt on my trail, which was like very nerve wracking for somebody who is very new to New York restaurants.

1:11:36and it was really trial by fire. I was doing some prep, but I was doing a lot of plating dessert at the restaurant when I joined. I think I started with like Friday, Saturday, Sunday plating dessert. And at that time, I mean, we were doing like 300 covers a night and that was just one person on the pastry line and people were going for dessert. People were going for Caroline's menu, which was and continues to be really fantastic. it was just really intense of like seeing all these tickets pop up and some of them are timed out and you're surrounded by all of these cooks who have done this a lot longer than I have and it was really scary but it really taught me how to do it yeah in a huge way like Caroline was such a great mentor to me but also um Catherine Arzari who took over her position um and they've both continue to be great mentors to me in pastry.

1:12:32Yeah, I think it must be really special also to be a part of just a long tradition. I mean, Edna Lewis was the chef at Gage and Colner back in the day. Like there's been so many people that have gone through that dining room. And I think to be serving like the American classic desserts is not necessarily something everyone has the opportunity to do. No, it was really, it was really neat. I mean, it made me feel, I think when I moved to New York City for the first time, I had a really tough relationship to it. I didn't feel like I had a place here, especially as an actor. And this made me feel like I had a place in New York City for the first time, being a part of something a lot bigger and like a big tradition, especially with Gage.

1:13:11And those baked Alaska's were so hard to play when I started. I got really good at it. Yeah. Do you have any tips? Yeah. Totally. Just like think up. You just got to get some height to it. Yeah. When you're piping the meringue. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's sort of like, you know, you're whipping them to order and like each one makes about two or three and you just plop it on you get your um you know little offset spatula and you start going it's like really a muscle gesturing happening in the studio and then how did you guys uh flamboyed did you use a torch yeah yeah okay i've tried to do that before and i don't have as much experience as you and it was very stressful and i kind of like lit it on fire too long i would say yeah i think it's about like the distance from you know i like to just keep maybe six inches and I like keep the torch in one place and then you turn the plate.

1:13:58Okay. Okay. Next time I make a baked Alaska, which is never again, I'll do this. So after you were at Gage and Tolner, you went to Winner and then you started your own pastry pop-up called Guest Check here in New York. What made you want to kind of go the pop-up route? Yeah. I think when I was at Winner, Ali Spahr was the pastry chef when I joined and I learned croissant lamination under her and I mostly did croissants there. But probably after like four or five months of being there, she and Andrew Ullis, who was the sous chef, they were like, you should try like doing your own specials on the weekends.

1:14:36You understand flavors really well. Why don't you do some like toy baked croissants or danishes? So I started doing that and it was a blast. It was so fun to like not really have any restrictions, to have a full kitchen sort of at my disposal to play around with. And once I got, you know, going there, I was like, I want to do something that just feels like my own just for fun. I want to cook for my friends and I want to have them, you know, come to my house and get some pastries. So, yeah, that's what I did. I started Guest Check in August two years ago, 2023. And, yeah, it started as a pastry box pickup from my house.

1:15:14And, you know, my friends placed orders over Instagram DM. And it was a blast. And then I started doing it at restaurants. I've done it at Margo, Public Records. It was, yeah, it was nice to just try out my own stuff. And it's still, you know, it's a nice creative thing. Yeah, it's so much work, I think, to be moving, especially from producing in a professional kitchen to out of your New York City apartment. Whenever I talk to people who do pop-ups, just the sheer amount of logistics is so much. It's so much. I mean, it dictates the menu. There's so much that I would love to do that I just can't do with my fridge space.

1:15:52So much of pastry is temperature control. So there's a lot I can't tackle, but I still have fun with it. My favorite thing to do is kolaches. I think it's like such a great blank canvas to play around with flavors. So November 22nd, I'm coming up with another one. Ooh, okay. So I'm going to play around with some kolaches there. Vegan kolaches? Yeah. Our favorite vegan venue in New York. Absolutely. Good club, too. That'll be really fun. I feel like it's fun to have kolaches in the mind because I think one of the things that you do really well as a writer is focusing on regional food stories. And that's been certainly some of the stories that you've done at Taste.

1:16:30Do you feel like that's something that you're drawn to? Yeah, big time. I think there's so many stories that I hear about or, you know, read about that I think if they were in New York City, they'd be covered instantly. And just because they're, you know, in the South or in the Midwest that they're not getting such coverage. I think that's a real shame. So, yeah, I'm really interested in that. I'm really interested in writing about Florida and like sort of understanding where I grew up in a different way. I think I took it for granted as a child. I just didn't understand what a beautiful state it is and the tension between the politics and the beauty of the nature of the state.

1:17:15It's a state of extremes. It's extreme heat, extreme politics. It's a really divisive place. And to understand that as an adult, especially not living there all the time, I love writing about it to try and understand it. Yeah, I think Florida looms so large in the national imagination and the global imagination, certainly like the Florida man, like new stories of it all. What are some of the Florida foodways that you think have been like especially interesting to focus on? I think there's so many restaurants that have been there for so long and hold so many great traditions. I wrote about Ted Peter's famous smoked fish, which is a place in St.

1:17:54Petersburg. It's like a roadside fish shack. It's an open air dining room. And it's been around for, you know, over 70 years. And it's not changed once. Everything's the same. The plates are the same. The menus are the same. It's the same preparation for the smoked fish. And, you know, smoking fish is one of the oldest fish preservation practices in Florida. And it's an amazing tradition. It's a delicious tradition. There's so many other restaurants that have been around forever. There's one called the Columbia in Tampa, which was opened in the early 1900s. It's not only the oldest Colombian restaurant in Florida, but it's the oldest restaurant in Florida, continually operated.

1:18:36And it's a huge dining room in Ybor City, which is historically a cigar manufacturing neighborhood. And it's delicious. I don't think the Cubano was invented at Columbia, but it was invented in Ybor City. And there's just such rich tradition there. Yeah, just these long sort of cultural traditions that are sustained for a really long time. I'm so invested in. Yeah, you were recently telling me about what's that steakhouse that has the whole floor of desserts? Yeah, Burns Steakhouse, which is in Tampa and is one of, you know, very nationally recognized steakhouse. And above it is the Harry Waugh dessert room, which has 48 private individual dining rooms that are all enclosed in their own red oak wine casks.

1:19:29and in each little dining room, there's a telephone, landline telephone, that goes to the, you can call the live pianist directly to request a song. And the pianist has been there for 20 years. He's there every night. So fascinated by it. And it looks like a haunted house inside. There's nothing like it. And the menu's amazing. It's very special. Yeah, I think like my grin just gets bigger and bigger the more you talk about it because that is the kind of hospitality we are missing in New York is an on-demand piano player with a landline. I know. Get a little Vodor to get a live pianist in there.

1:20:07It'd be unbelievable. That would be really funny. Have you called in a request there before? I don't think so. I haven't eaten there in a long time. I think the last time I was there was maybe 10 years ago, but I have secured a reservation for December. Okay. I'm going back with the fam, and I will be requesting, I don't know, some pop song. Maybe they can do Carly Rae Jepsen. On the piano? You should think of a song that they would have to like look up the chords for. Yes, he, in interviews with the pianist, he said, you know, if he doesn't know a song, he'll like pull it up on YouTube and learn it by ear in the moment.

1:20:37So I do want to sort of test him there. That's hospitality. Totally. I think another story you wrote for Taste, maybe the first story you did for Taste that was so fun was about actors who go on tour and the kind of food that they eat. What about that story kind of came to you and like made you think there was something to explore? I think the interesting thing about it is like actors on tour are superheroes. They are juggling so much in their heads and physically. They're doing eight shows a week. They're going town to town like every other day in some cases. and it's funny to think about one of the hardest things they have to deal with is what they're going to eat and how they're going to eat it um i have a lot of friends who've been on national tours so i talked to them just about like how they did it and a lot of people travel with like you know hot plates in their suitcases or hot pots in their um you know big traveling uh boxes and people got really creative, really, really creative.

1:21:40Some people were like frying chicken in their hotel rooms, some curries like in the bathroom, stuff like that. Yeah, there's like a hotel manager somewhere that was reading that article being like, no wonder this room smelled like whatever afterwards. Absolutely, it was freaking out. I think they also have a really great point of view on just national trends of what's happening nationally. There's so few people who travel the country like that for a whole year and get to hit some really amazing spots. I think the thing that is tough about it is there are actors who are in shows that are on union contracts and they get paid a good amount of money to do what they do.

1:22:20And then there are actors who are on contracts that are not represented by the actors union and they're getting paid a quarter of the price. They're on shorter runs in smaller cities. So they don't have the same access that somebody who's maybe on the Hamilton tour, on the Wicked tour, who can, you know, take a night, go to the French Laundry if they're over in Napa. They can't do the same. And a lot of national tours are starting to go on lower contracts, paying less. And it was interesting to talk to people who are on those non-union tours about what they need. Yeah, I was going to kind of say, I think the level of access people have to food is really interesting because part of it is this way of getting to, you know, explore the country, go to a restaurant that you've heard about in a town.

1:23:09Maybe it's cooking to make yourself feel closer to home when you feel far away. Or it's a reality of like, I only have X amount of money to feed myself today. So I'm going to make ramen in my hotel room and like that's going to be the meal for the day. Yeah. And balancing too. Like doing eight shows a week is so physically toxic that you have to be eating a certain way to perform like that. And eating, you know, ramen or a cheap meal for every, you know, lunch break, they can't sustain that. Yeah. I'm just thinking also about like what it must be like to be performing the same thing but in a completely different setting all of the time.

1:23:46And if you are on Broadway and you live here in New York, you can at least like sleep in your own bed and have your own pre-show routine and go to Just Salad or wherever you want to get in Midtown. But when all of the variables around you are so different and then you also need to have the same quality performance, it just seems like really hard. Really hard. Yeah. I mean, it makes me think of like, I spoke with Talia Saskauer, who was playing Lucille Frank in Parade, which is a very politically charged musical about the, you know, very unfair trial of Leo Frank in the early 1900s. hundreds and she played um his wife in that and i spoke with her just about you know what's comforting to you about um coming home after um doing that performance and she's saying like each each audience is super different especially with a performance like that so it helps to sort of go back to your hotel room and the constant thing is like your roommates baked some cupcakes and And that's very comforting or baking some bread and you can rely on that comfort.

1:24:49Yeah, I think that does really resonate. I also really liked your interview with the actor who plays Kevin G in the Toy Mean Girls. I felt so like tenderly towards him because he was packing like his Instant Pot and then all of his spices so that he could make like masala curry on the road. And like that's just like the level he really cares about food clearly and also the people around him that he wants to share that with them. Yeah. Shout out Kabir Gandhi. Um, yeah, so, so sweet. Yeah, he was saying he travels with soy sauce and shampoo bottles, like travel shampoo bottles, which I think is such an amazing detail.

1:25:25Yeah, it's a way for him. He was saying to me, it's a way for him to connect with the other people of color on, you know, his cast and to learn about each other through the foods that they grew up eating. It's such a great thing to have on the road for them. Yeah, and I bet once you mix up the soy sauce once, you probably know that that's not going to be your shampoo. Yeah, probably not. I love that. I think looking at all of these stories, I guess the other taste story that I wanted to ask you about was you wrote about these peanuts that are made by the church in North Carolina. How did you encounter these holy peanuts?

1:26:02The holy peanuts. I saw them for the first time at Dimes Market, and I saw them and they made me crack up. I was like, what are these church peanuts doing at Dimes Market? Such a chic little spot. And I got them. I tried them. And they're the best peanuts in the world. They're so unbelievably tasty. They made me laugh. I just thought it was very funny. And I read more about them. And they're prepared by a group of people in the church kitchen in the Mount Olive Methodist Church. They do it about like once a month. and production really ramps up around the holidays. Church peanuts have a very long history, especially like in the Carolinas.

1:26:47They're not the only one that does them. There's many churches, gets a little competitive, but it's a classic stocking stuffer. So they get very busy and then they take a break in January, February, and they're just delicious. And I think, you know, when I was thinking about that story and I was thinking about how I love writing about food, it's all stuff that I would like love to see in a movie or on stage just really it's theatrical I would love to know more about the people who are making these peanuts who are they why do they come back you know every month to do this it could be a musical it could be a musical it could be a like stirring of the peanuts is the background beat for the song you know absolutely I you know I'll start it let's just be a blast I feel like we're on the verge of breaking into song right now but luckily the song doesn't exist taste the musical this is taste the musical but i think it's like i think there is there's great storytelling is great storytelling and i think that there's always a food angle and that always interests me yeah i totally agree with you do you have any dream like bigger writing projects you would want to do yeah i was i really really loved um eric Wareheim's Steakhouse.

1:28:02I was slipping through that and I was just really loving the idea of just a regional book that follows a story sort of across the country. I would love to do something like that in Florida, write about Florida restaurants that have just been there for a long time and just chronicle them and the people who are keeping them open and talking to the people that have continued to go back for years and years. Yeah, I would do that. I'd also like love to write some fiction, maybe a play as well. That's maybe a little food focus. There's not been many plays that are like set in kitchens. There's been some.

1:28:41Yeah, there's Waitress. Classic, of course. With the pie smell that they pipe into the theater. Yeah. Bring Back Waitress. Waitress did come back. Anyways, I could go on and on about that. But yeah, I would love to sort of see what that looks like. I love the idea of a Florida book for you. I can see it now. I think it needs like the same beautiful kind of portraits that Eric Wareham's book Stekheim had and that kind of storytelling. There are so many characters in that book and he obviously is a comedian and actor and has that kind of background. So I think it makes sense that you would be drawn to that element as well.

1:29:17Yeah, absolutely. I just love to tackle all the places I grew up eating that are still there. Yeah. I think something I really appreciate whenever I get a draft from you as an editor is that you seem very eager to talk to sources and get good quotes from people. And I think a lot of people, especially writers that are just starting out, are kind of nervous about the reporting part of the process. And I was curious if you have any kind of strategies for getting people to open up to you and tell stories. Yeah. You know, it's something that Samantha Brown does really well on the Travel Channel. It's all back to Samantha Brown.

1:29:50It is. What she really does when she's talking to people and wanting to get them talking about something that is exciting to them is to meet them with the same excitement. When I was speaking to Michael Afatato, who's the owner of the Village Tea Shop in New York, I started off by saying, I know you carry these peanuts. They're the best peanuts in the world. What do people think about them? and he was like, you're right. These are the best peanuts. People love them. And yeah, I think like if you can just meet somebody where they're at or where, you know, you hope they're at, you can get a lot out of them.

1:30:31He was such a great source. There was so much that he said that I didn't put in the piece. I could have just interviewed him about the church peanuts. He was so enthusiastic. I think that's one of the great things about food writing also is that most of the time people are really passionate about what they're doing and they're just looking for somebody to give them space to really kind of pop off about it. Absolutely. It's what I love, like, about talking about restaurants with my friends, just talking about a great restaurant with somebody who loves the same restaurant. You can just go on and on about, oh, God, I love the chocolate mousse.

1:31:07The chocolate mousse was so, so good. And you know that this other person appreciates it, and it feels great. You're just making each other feel good, remembering a great meal. Yeah. I wanted to ask you, I did not warn you about this, but I feel like one of the worst things to have to do as a New Yorker is planning where to eat around the theater district because often people come to town and they want to go see a play and they're asking for recommendations. And it's just a pretty tough neighborhood. And I feel like you probably spend a lot of time going to plays. And I'm curious if you have any recommendations.

1:31:37Yeah. I mean, my first answer is not a serious answer, or maybe it is. The Raising Cane's in Times Square is unstoppable. The way that it's so packed in there, but they get the food out so quickly is amazing. I love Raising Cane's. Also, there aren't that many. There's like two in New York, probably. So it is kind of like a destination restaurant for a New Yorker. Yeah, it's very like big for Europeans who are coming here. I was like watching some TikTok of a woman from England who came and she was like, we're here for we're in New York for three days. We've eaten at Raising Cane's four times.

1:32:10Probably going to go back before we leave. It's such a cult favorite. it. It is very good. There is three or four Raising Cane's in New York. I have been to the opening day of two of them. Not the immediate fact check about how many Raising Cane's there are. You've been to all of them? I've been to three of them. I was at opening day of two. What's your order? Well, there's not many options. They have chicken tenders. And it just depends on how hungry you are, how many you want to get. And the Texas toast, right? Texas toast. So my order is box combo, no slaw, add extra fries, add honey mustard.

1:32:44Okay. But besides Raising Cane's in the theater district, I really love La Rock at Rockefeller Center. That's quite delicious. I prefer, I live in Brooklyn, so if I'm in to see a show, I'll eat like downtown Manhattan and then take the train up. Yeah, that's very reasonable. I don't know. I'm sure people have a better answer. It's tough out there. No, I like these. I think they're good recommendations. And I guess on the theater side, I feel like you go to a lot of shows. Do you just rely on recommendations from people that you know in the industry or how do you decide like what show you actually want to go and see?

1:33:22Most of the time, yeah. Most of the time. I feel like I'm just talking to friends or, you know, I have a lot of friends that work in the theater, so I'll go see friends' shows. But it's mostly word of mouth, I would say. Every now and then I'll, like, you know, check into the publications. If there's something off-Broadway that's really interesting and there's a review of it, you know, I'll go if I love the review. But, yeah, it's... Broadway's in such a funny place right now. I think it's really hard to sell a Broadway show. It's really commercial. Yeah. At this, you know, post-COVID moment. I think the best stuff is off-Broadway at the smaller, like, nonprofit theaters.

1:34:04Have you seen anything off-Broadway that you've been like, I can just tell this is going to be successful? Yeah. I mean, I saw this and it was very successful, but I saw Stereophonic when it was off-Broadway, which is about sort of loosely inspired by Fleetwood Mac recording rumors. And it's a fictional band. But I saw it when I was at Playwrights Horizons. And I sat second row with my friend. And it was so unbelievable. It was you're really like in that story. And I remember intermission coming along and just thinking, oh, this is going to be so huge. This is going to be really, really big. And then it transferred to Broadway and it went a bunch of Tonys and it's gone to the West End and maybe there will be a movie.

1:34:50I'm imagining there will be. It was great. I mean, I think it was one of those stories that you just get really dropped into. It was a live band on stage, like really playing the music and the score was so great. That was really exciting. That's cool. I think my best claim to fame is that I saw Hadestown when it was off Broadway in the East Village. And I had listened to that album a lot already. So that's how I had known to go and see it when they were turning it. They adopted it from an album into a play, basically. And then I went back to see it on Broadway as well. And it was just like so consistently excellent.

1:35:31But I think it's kind of like when you go to a restaurant when it just opened, like before the review comes out. and then you feel like you are beating the crowd a little bit. Yeah, totally. You want to go tell everybody about it. It's really exciting. Yeah, except for plays can accommodate a bigger crowd than the restaurant. You know when you go to a 10-seat restaurant, you don't want to tell everyone because then you're not going to be able to go eat there anymore. I haven't been to Haas Snack Bar yet. Oh, I can take you. Let's go. Whenever you want. Let me know. I'll be there. See you later.

1:35:59I think it is that same kind of feeling of buzz and energy and like just like you want the crowd to be good in the restaurant in the same way as you want the crowd to be good at the play. Yeah, totally. I want to play a rapid fire game with you to close today. I'm going to make you play some favorites. Do it. Okay. Your favorite cookbook right now? Linger by Hedy Lemekinnen. Your favorite like writer who's food writing you love to read? I really love Helen Rosner. I love her sense of humor. And I really like Jay Lee at Interview. Something that you will never make from scratch? Okay. I might get hate for this, but I just don't want to make pasta.

1:36:36I don't want to do it. I don't think I'm very good at it. Like the noodle. Fresh pasta. Fresh pasta. I'd rather just get fresh pasta from somebody who makes it very well. I think that's very fair. Thanks. Your favorite bakery in New York? Radio bakery. Your favorite quick lunch spot? S &P Lunch and Court Street Grocers, same group, so I'll put them together. Yeah. What's your, like, Quartz Street order? The Ollie at Bacon. I'm sort of famous for that. Okay. Where? At Quartz Street Grocers. Yes. And S &P at Tuna Melt. I love the Tuna Melt at S &P. That's so good. My Quartz Street order is the Vegetalian, which I think is the greatest vegetarian sandwich I've ever had.

1:37:20It has butternut squash, roasted butternut squash is, like, the meat of it. One of just the best sandwiches ever. It's such a satisfying sandwich. It's so crunchy and it's squash, right? The squash is so delicious. I love it. Your favorite special occasion restaurant in New York? Romans. Your favorite bookstore? Books are magic. Your favorite musical? Is that insane? Oh, no. Oh, it's so tough. The Light in the Piazza by Adam Gettle. Okay. Your go-to karaoke song? Oh, This Kiss by Faith Hill. That's so good. Okay, finally, a fictional food scene from a book or a movie that you wish you could eat in real life.

1:38:01The bruschetta scene in Julie and Julia, when they're like, it's sort of at the top of the movie. Chris Messina takes the most erotic bite of it, and it just looks so delicious. The whole movie is food styled so beautifully. Yeah, I love that thought, and this whole conversation has been so fun. Grayson, thank you for coming on the show. Thanks for having me.

1:38:27This is Taste is hosted and produced by Matt Rodbard and me, Eliza Abarbanil. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergang Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skurzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.