701: Carla Hall Is the Best Kind of Cookie Snob

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0:31because i have to eat for a living because i'm on a lot of baking shows and there's a lot of sugar when i'm at home i really eat like an athlete yeah so i'm like what's my protein plan you know how much fiber can i get in uh after dinner walk in 10 minutes you know what i mean Yeah. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbarg.

0:59It was so much fun having Carla Hall in the studio. Carla is a chef and TV host who is currently serving as judge on Fox's Next Level Baker, a show that tests both professional and home bakers on their baking bona fides. In this episode, Carla shares some great baking ideas for the holidays, and she answers a question that many have asked over the years. Is Gordon Ramsay really an a**hole in real life? And at the top of the show, it's the return of three things where Eliza and I talk about what is exciting us in the world of restaurants, cookbooks, and the food world as a whole.

1:39Eliza, we're back with three things. You have been traveling. We both were out of the city for Thanksgiving. I was in the Pacific Northwest and you were in the Midwest. I was. Which is not a coast, but that's okay. It's not a coast, but it is where I grew up and I got to visit a city that I don't really get to visit often. But tell me a little bit about where you were and what you dined. Well, I'm going to start with a kind of combined recommendation for what I would say is the most romantic and architecturally significant night out one can have in Tacoma, Washington, which is south of Seattle and my girlfriend's hometown.

2:17And I love just beautiful architecture. And by beautiful, I mean completely specific and ideally like a giant version of something that normally you would see tiny. So first we went to Frisco Freeze, which is a very popular, casual kind of like walk up, drive up burger shack that opened in Tacoma in 1950. So it's easily the best onion rings I've ever had probably in my life. They must be triple fried. They're so crunchy and delicious. And the burgers are also just a really good classic. Like it's not quite, I would say it's the thinness of a smash burger, but they're kind of very smooth on top.

2:59So I don't know how they're achieving that effect, but the ratio of, you know, burger to cheese to this kind Kind of Thousand Island relish style dressing they have on it. And obviously the buns is just that perfect kind of flat bite. They also just have incredible decor. They had a wholly lit Christmas tree on the roof of the burger stand we drove up. I've seen that move. Yeah. You throw a Christmas tree up on the roof or like in a window. It's always good. It's fully on the roof. They have this beautiful restored sign. It's a great place to go for that kind of classic Americana vibe. And then afterwards, we went to Bob's Java Jive to get drinks, which is another institution in Tacoma.

3:39And this is a dive bar slash karaoke bar in a giant concrete coffee pot. I saw your post on Instagram and had questions. I'm glad you're answering them here. I would say I was there and I still have a lot of questions. But that is kind of the appeal of Bob's Java Jive. It was originally built in 1927 as like a roadside novelty, basically. And it's had many owners and many iterations. It was a diner for a long time. It was a dance hall where Bing Crosby performed in the 40s. In 1955, they turned it into Bob's Java Jive after a song called Java Jive that was playing on the jukebox. In the 60s, it became like a go-go dancer hotspot.

4:20In the 70s, they had a pair of live monkeys named Java and Jive that lived in the bar. In the 90s, they turned down Nirvana, who wanted to play there, because they said they didn't allow loud music. And it just goes on from there. And at this current iteration, I would say it's a very beloved karaoke dive bar. And we went there the day after Thanksgiving, which is, I think, a really, like, local's time to go to any bar. And everyone who did karaoke was incredible. And they all seemed to know each other. Like, after someone would sing, people would come up and tell them that they did a good job.

4:52and how compared to a previous time that heard that song. The front bar has dollar bills completely covering the ceiling that people have stuck up there. And also just everything is covered in the graffiti of people who have been there. There was like a, you know, Bob and Linda Forever from 1992 written in the booth that I was sitting in. That's so cute. So Bob and Linda, if you're listening, I hope you're still together. And if you find yourself in Tacoma, Washington, and you really appreciate dive bars, karaoke bars, or just giant versions of things, Bob Strava Drive. Bob and Linda, very 90s, very 80s.

5:27Yeah, maybe I'm saying Bob because the whole thing is called Bob. Yeah, that's the names that you saw. It was great. What's your first thing? My first thing is I was driving from the East Coast to my hometown in Kalamazoo, and we made a stop in Cleveland, Ohio, a city that my wife was born in, though we have no really family or connections there. so we rarely get to go and it's a shame because I love Cleveland Cleveland's got so many cool neighborhoods and uh you know I'll I'll start with probably my most unexpectedly I would say incredible meal uh in a long time uh the restaurant's called Cordelia it's from chef Vinny Semino and I got to chat with Vinny after the meal I you know we're just obviously just dining there no one knows I talk about food or whatever and he just like introduced himself at the end of our meal and just wanted to chat and I loved it grew up in Akron which is a nearby uh city and he has deep love and respect for midwestern cuisine and I just enjoy he hasn't like he's not like staging in Copenhagen or whatever he's like been local in the midwest for a long time and he has some incredible skills uh just a really sick chef he was a food and wine best new chef last year and has had some acknowledgement on the national scene and has been nominated for two James Beard Awards.

6:49So he's not an unknown quantity, but at least for some he may be a little bit under the radar. But again, I love this cooking. He did a honey nut squash hash brown with andouille leek mornay sauce and pickled peppers. Wow. Yeah, right? A lot going on there. Sounds really good. Very cool ideas. Very cool. Doing a honey nut, doing squash style for Hash Browns is genius. He has this overdressed greens, which is essentially a salad covered with cheese in the way that you would expect it, like a pizzeria, especially Midwest pizzeria. You went to school in Chicago, you know the vibe, right? Where there's almost more cheese than lettuce.

7:27He mixes it with a white French dressing. The coolest part about it was there were turmeric pickled zucchini within the salad. Cool. I love pickles in salads when it's not like the dill pickle, but it's like some kind of, I would say, like a sweeter pickle or like a cool herb. And we had a couple other dishes. I love the gnocchi with popcorn, meaning it was like a pretty traditional bechamel, but little bits of popcorn within the gnocchi. And the idea of the contrasting of gnocchi and popcorn felt really smart, and it worked for me. Like popped popcorn? Yeah, popped popcorn. Like not like full kernels, but like it was basically adding texture via popcorn.

8:07That's crazy. Does it feel a little like you're like maybe. I totally believe that it works. I'm just trying to imagine the experience. But I think probably it has to be experienced in person. Yeah, it is. It feels like it might be a little slapdash. But that's the thing about this. It might read a little like too casual, but it's not. They have a very messy burger. And I watched the guy. We sat at the counter and he made like literally had a 19, like, you know, 19 to fire or 19 all day, essentially order, which is insane. to see a guy do 19 all day in real time. They had a private event downstairs and like everyone clearly got the burger.

8:45The best thing I probably had was the dirt and worms, which is a traditional Midwestern kind of childhood party favor dessert. And he was doing one with like a really great house-made caramel and house-made cookies and really nice cream. And then of course, gas station gummy worms. I gotta love that. I feel like dirt and worms has been kind of a cute dessert I've been seeing pop up here and there. So that's fun. It's fun. What's your next West Coast stop? I went up to Seattle and I finally got to have a meal at Pho Bok Soup Shop. Have you been there before? No, I haven't been there. This is a really great pho restaurant that was the first pho restaurant in Seattle in 1982, which if you've been to the Pacific Northwest, Vietnamese food is everywhere.

9:31Pho is like probably the dish I associate with Seattle. and this parent generation opened the restaurant and now it's being run by their kids, the younger generation. I think the recipes seem to be pretty much the same, but the restaurant is, you know, a little different. They have natural wine on the menu and they have opened another restaurant that actually shares the same parking lot, which is called The Boat, which has this whole fried chicken that among other things, I'm truly dying to eat. But this night it was cold, it was rainy. It was absolutely the perfect time to have pho. And I had their short rib pho, which was so delicious and flavorful.

10:05And they serve it with like a Flintstone style, like huge short rib on the bone in the bowl, which just looks super cool and fun. And I also had something I'd never had before, which was, they call it a dry pho, which is a brothless pho, but it's not bone dry. It still has this kind of delicious fatty sauce that you kind of mix through it. And then they serve that with kind of a shooter of broth to sip on on the side. So you can still have that experience of having the noodles and sipping on the broth, but it's kind of a more manageable portion. I also had these twice-fried jumbo chicken wings that I think is a version of what they have at the boat, which are doused in this, like, sticky, tangy tamarind glaze and fried shallots.

10:43And it was just the perfect cold Seattle meal. I also just have to give a shout-out to this parking lot because I have never seen— Parking structure, shout-out. It's not even a—it's just a lot that it's attached to. But the way that people stack their cars, just pack them in, and then people walk into the restaurant and they say, hey, does anyone have the red Dodge Charger? Why is it always a Dodge Charger? Red Dodge Charger is blocking me. And people get up and move their cars. And it's just this like sense of accommodation and also the lanes that people will go to to get their pho fix. And I thought that was just kind of sweet.

11:17I love that. I hope we can make it back to Seattle next year and I'll take that rec. Yeah, absolutely. What's your next thing? My next thing is staying in Cleveland. I crossed the river and headed over to Ohio City, which is a neighbor I've been going to for years and just a really cool spot. We went to Paradise Galleria which is I would say like a very good vintage shop like by all means like you're gonna get your cool Memphis style Pee Wee Herman furniture and get like a great tea from the 80s and some cool like they have like they make it kind of like a walkthrough you know installation kind of style but across the street we had a great meal at Heart of Gold a great I would call it it's not a bar not a wine bar but it's like more bar than restaurant it feels and there's like a large outdoor patio and like it's really really well done and I have to say waffle fries with ranch done that way superiority burger you've got great fries Heart of gold in Ohio City, you might be as good if not better than superiority.

12:30I love these fries. It's weird to talk about waffle fries this long on a podcast, but I loved it. Great fried chicken sandwich with Maggie mayo. And they had these Old Bay and aged cheddar garlic knots with miso scallion butter, which was nice. And so I think that kind of speaks about the cuisine. It's like a lot of like fried Midwestern bar food, but done in like a cool, interesting way. I loved it. And it's like a very like sharp space. Great art. Like probably like 30 foot ceilings. Like crazy in the Midwest. You can get like these big. Wow. High ceilings. I loved it. That's great. I'm going to come back to New York for my last thing.

13:13Oh, cool. You're back. I'm back. I'm back. And I ventured to a new side of the Fort Greene Farmers Market, which typically I just go to the Washington Park side, which is where all of the produce vendors are. But if you walk down DeKalb towards downtown Brooklyn, there's a variety of like home goods and bakeries and other kinds of curated tents and stands that are over there. And I specifically went to this bakery called Zena Bakery, which is a Palestinian bakery selling just really delicious breads and cookies. They specifically are doing a lot of mamul, which is Middle Eastern shortbread that traditionally is filled with dates or nuts or figs.

13:50I had some of their more traditional flavors, but I also had the maple pecan mamul, which was so delicious and salty and had that really kind of crumbly short texture that I think the pecans really lean into in that kind of way. I would say like traditionally, maybe walnut would be what you would have, but the maple pecan was a standout for me. And I also had some of their focaccia. They were doing a honey sesame focaccia that's been brushed with honey after it comes out of the oven. It has this really nice kind of tangy bread, sweet crust chew. I took it home and I used it to kind of make like a snack plate for lunch.

14:24That was super satisfying. And I think it's just a nice reminder to, you know, keep walking when you get to the market and see what other good things there are. Oh, that's exciting. I got to check it out. I haven't been to that farmer's market in many years. Well, I'll be there if you ever want to go. I know. It's your hood. What's your last thing? My last thing is I'm staying in Cleveland and I have to admit I had very low expectations for this stop and I was stunned about how much I liked it. It is the little spot called the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Ever heard of it? Ever heard of it? I don't know.

14:57Have you been? No. So I asked a few people and there was like some snarky responses like, you know, like the people in the hall are fine, but they're missing a bunch. Which I have to agree, there's a lot of bands that are not in the Hall of Fame that should be there. But that's not the point. My point is like visiting the Hall of Fame. It's very cool. It's a very fun and I would say well-considered exhibit of, air quotes, rock and roll music. Because there's like a lot of directions to go in. And, you know, I think that they have to pick their angles. So I was there while they were running an SNL retrospective.

15:36So they had a bunch of really cool costumes from SNL performers and bits about music and some musical like interactive pieces. But what I really liked was going past that temporary exhibit, walking past the CBGB awning, the original one, and heading to like the historical halls. They had sections about Philly in the 60s, Detroit in the 60s and 70s. There's really a little bit of little country music because there's their own Hall of Fame. but the way they kind of exhibit Chicago and moving through the eras and, of course, over the pond to Liverpool and London as well. Very cool to see not just guitars, but just great narrative and stories about these different eras of rock and roll music.

16:27And then you head upstairs and you actually see the rock and roll fame. You see the actual names on the wall and the new people who were inducted this year. and the White Stripes were inducted, which I thought was an interesting choice. And I support it. There's no Stereolab in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and I was bummed by that, looking at their history. Well, I have to mention my favorite YouTube video of all time is Prince doing My Guitar, Gently Weeps from the posthumous George Harrison introduction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. So I think for that video alone, I should probably make my own pilgrimage.

17:03I love that reference. They do a little mini documentary about the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and it was in this auditorium. And of course, they close that doc with that performance where Prince throws his guitar into space at the end of it. Can we put it in the show notes? I mean, let's do it. That YouTube will be in the show notes. Probably the greatest guitar performance ever recorded. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely up there. Maybe there's a Jimi Hendrix fan out there that's going to come back with another retort. But, you know, I love ending on a non-food related thing because why not? Why not?

17:41It was a great trip. And I just think Cleveland is a wonderful city, even when it's cold. Thank you for sharing your three things. Thanks, Liza.

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19:17Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. From February 20th to March 7th, dive into Canada's biggest culinary festival, Montreal en Lumière, an exclusive partnership with the McCord Stewart Museum and its exhibition, On the Menu Montreal, a restaurant story. The 2026 festival invites food lovers on a flavorful journey through time. Montreal's top restaurateurs will reimagine 65 years of the city's iconic astronomy, crafting inventive, nostalgia-inspired dishes with a modern twist. Prepare your palate. World-renowned chefs, including several Michelin-star talents, will team up with over 80 of Montreal's finest local chefs to create unforgettable, one-of-a-kind menus.

20:03The full program is available at MontrealOnLumiere.com, presented by Lotto Quebec in collaboration with National Bank. Hi there, it's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you. Do you have a guest request? A restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on Three Things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible.

20:40That's the This Is Taste listener survey. Link in our show notes. Carla Hall, welcome. This Is Taste. So great to see you. It is really great to be here. I'm excited to talk about your new show, Next Level Baker. But I first want to know, when you're in New York City, is there like a restaurant you're going to? Have you had any, you know, cool experiences in the past few days? Well, I just went to the Whitby Hotel. I went to the Whitby Hotel to have tea, and I decided, you know what, let's get an English muffin. I'm like, please, no diss with Thomas's, but please be a real English muffin with those little pockets.

21:23And it was so simple and so delicious and such a beautiful space. So I literally just had that experience before I came on. Now, have you attempted English muffins yourself to bake them? I have not. Okay. Mauricio Leo, friend of the show, author with us, has incredible recipe with sourdough starter, sourdough English muffin. That is so good to know. I mean, I've been to a restaurant where I've seen them made and I'm fascinated by it, but I've never made them. And now you're telling me and I'm going to do it. You should do it. So how do you kind of think about your own cooking? I mean, you're doing professional consulting restaurants.

21:59You're on television and doing media and cookbooks. And then you're at home. how do you like balance all of these different types of cooks so the one thing that i i tell people and they're really surprised because i have to eat for a living because i'm on a lot of baking shows and there's a lot of sugar when i'm at home i really eat like an athlete yeah so i'm like what's my protein plan you know how much fiber can i get in uh after dinner walking 10 minutes you know what i mean yeah so i i i'm i'm not thinking about delicious food necessarily yeah I'm thinking about fuel. You're thinking about fiber here.

22:36Not that fun to talk about fiber on national TV. I know. Look, also, I'm 61, so we talk a lot about fiber. If it comes in, it's got to get out. It's always a good rule of thumb when we're on our seven taqueria crawl. It's coming in. It's got to go out. How are you going to leave this neighborhood? I like that. Yeah, you obviously timed Next Level Baker, which is on now in a great show, with this time of year of baking. And I think many of our listeners, they often, they are dusting off the stand mixer this time of year. It's been resting for like 11 months. Yeah. And I want to get some advice for those who are thinking about holiday baking and maybe haven't done it in a minute.

23:23So first of all, I love baking for the holidays. I really do. I love cookies. I love pies. I love cakes. So first of all, if you're making cookies, make that dough ahead. Yes. You know, just make it now, throw it in the freezer. I am a big fan of putting the doughs flat in like a Ziploc bag and then cutting them into small pieces and then like whatever you need, like pulling them out. Right. Yeah. And the thing that I learned from Dory Greenspan, for those of you who do decorated cookies, when your dough is soft, roll it out and then, you know, put it in manageable, like pack it up like that and then put it in the freezer to chill.

24:06Flat. Flat. So you're not working so hard. Remember back in the day, people would say, oh, like your crust, put it in a ball. I mean, you have to work so hard to take that thing from a ball to a pie crust. Yeah. So whether it's cookie dough, whether it's pie dough, roll it out when it's still soft and let it get cold and it will be perfect. Pie doughs too. Get your pie doughs done. You can even do some of your pie mixes ahead, like things like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am just a big fan of, especially if you don't like the hours in the kitchen, do your dough. You know, do it in steps and then cut your dough and then you're ready to bake your dough.

24:51Nothing has to be done really at one time. Yeah. I love that. I mean, you have to think ahead. I'm hearing roll out the dough and freeze it and have it ready there. I've been thinking a lot about cookie competitions for office. Yeah. Oh. We have one here. Okay, let me tell you. Okay, my whole thing about cookie competitions and cookie swaps. Please. So, I love cookies. I'm a bit of a cookie snob. Snob. I'm really trying not to say snob. But I am particular with cookies. I had a cookie company where I had the little cookies that were half inch by half inch, like jelly beans. Yeah, yeah. I think cookies are the one thing that you start making when you're a child, right?

25:35Yes. That's the first recipe. One of our first recipes you ever have as a kid. Right. You'll do the chocolate cookie. Such memories. It's a whole house cookie, right? Licking the spoon, you get the bowl, all that. That's right. Yeah. But I don't think that for cookie exchanges, the technique of most people making cookies has changed since they were a kid. So there are a lot of bad cookies at a cookie exchange. I mean, you've got the one that's like the thumbprint with the Hershey's Kiss. Yes. But look, when somebody comes in with a thumbprint and they try to sandwich that thing, you cannot unhinge your jaw to bite it.

26:08I know. Right? Unfortunately, I know. Correct. Correct. That's what I'm saying. So I think one of the keys to making cookie dough is to get the butter at the right temperature and the chilled the dough. So that's what I'm saying for all of you cookie exchange people. You know, the cookie shouldn't be real thick. Short bread should have a snap. All the things. There's all the things. I mean, what about adventure with spicing? Oh, 100%. I like it. It's not too much. Like too much cardamom to me. Oh, your face is so good. Yeah. Oh, no. Too much cardamom, too much rosewater, too much of any one thing.