704: The Year in NYC Restaurants with Alan Sytsma of New York Magazine & Mahira Rivers of the New York Times

24:30I mean, I haven't eaten in all of the food cities. I haven't either. But I would say it is my favorite city to eat out in in the world. Like the restaurants, the pageantry, the places you can go to. Next year, maybe let's do our favorite restaurants of the year that have been open for like five years or more, 10 years or more. Let's do it. Let's do it. Like we could do that early in the first quarter of next year. Just like thinking about what we love. Love that. I think five years is a great number. Well, that's the benefit of having the podcast. We can do whatever we want. We can do whatever we want.

25:01Well, thanks for chatting, Liza. You too.

25:07Ellen Sitzema, welcome back to This is Taste. How are you? I'm great. How are you? I love talking with you. We've mentioned you on the show a few times since your last appearance a couple years ago. Well, that's good to hear, I guess. I hope good things. Good things. We've talked about your work on Food Writers, talking about food writing, and we certainly are always reading New York Magazine, where you're the food editor. and such important work. Thanks. It's, you know, sometimes it feels like we're in our own little corner at New York Magazine where, you know, there's a lot of talk of politics and the, you know, culture writ large and to be covering New York restaurants is fun and, you know, it feels like we're in our own little world sometimes.

25:46So it's nice to hear that. Let's get real, though. I think the New York Magazine reader, everyone is reading the food pages. Like, people are going to the food maybe after the cover story. That has to be true. This is my pet theory. I have no skin in the game. I mean, you know, I feel very fortunate where we are in the magazine, we're sort of like right in the middle. So the issue tends to flip right open to where we are. So I think by default we win. Well, we're going to talk about some favorite restaurants in New York from the year and just generally New York dining over the year. But before we start, I always ask guests, and this is a fun one for you.

26:18Alan, where have you been dining out maybe in the past week or so? You know, this weekend I went to Ileone in Park Slope, a new pizza place from a chef and an owner who got his start in Maine and has come down to Brooklyn to try his hand. You know, one thing we don't have enough of in Brooklyn is pizza. So it's really it was really a very charming place. I mean, it's super small, dark. It's all candle lit. And the, you know, the energy and the vibe. We were there, you know, two days after Thanksgiving, still totally full. There was a line out the door as soon as we walked up. And, you know, great for them.

26:56And they have this beautiful backyard. So once it warms up, I can't wait to go back. Yeah. What's the pie like? Is it classic New York style? Or is it, are they doing like fermentation? No, very Neapolitan. Great, great, great. Very, you know, they have an electric oven. It's not wood burning, but it's that same style. Super thin, really like a fork and knife pie, not a pick it up and cradle it pie, which threw my daughters off a little bit because they're used to the very stiff New York style. No. They're seven and four. So this was a new experience. But, you know, I mean, they take the sourcing really seriously.

27:26The staff was super friendly. And it's kind of just what you want in a neighborhood place, you know. Yeah. Like it would be such a great date restaurant. I mean, to just go and hang out for a little bit. Yeah. I mean, opening a new pizza shop in Brooklyn, ambitious. Opening anything is just, you know, I work with and talk to enough people who run restaurants that, you know, all credit to them because the effort and the energy and the time and the money that it takes to do this is just all consuming in a way that I think you have to be a little crazy to even attempt it, especially in New York. I mean, you just need so much capital in New York City.

28:01You just it's like, you know, five million dollars is like possibly just starting out. Well, and you need all these amazing connections. I mean, you know, if your dishwasher is broken, who's going to come and fix it before service? You know, if your oven goes down, it's like all this behind the scenes stuff that you can't even think about that just must drive people just nuts all the time. And I think it's an important note at the top of conversation where we're talking mostly about the best. But of course, New York Magazine writes critically about food and not everything really slays. And but I think recognizing the difficulty of operating not just in New York, but anywhere as a restaurant tour and having that North Star is important for the work you do.

28:39Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, we try to treat restaurants the way everyone else in the magazine treats any other cultural pursuit. You know, we are thinking of it in terms of we want to be fair, but our responsibility is to the reader. We do know how hard it is. We're not trying to, you know, go after anyone's livelihood. But we do want to be truthful in what we're saying. And when we recognize something isn't quite up to par or there is a situation where somebody is maybe trying to get away with something that they shouldn't be. You know, we want to be in a position where we can cover that, say something, but do so from a place that it's understood there isn't like some kind of larger agenda behind it.

29:21I think, and Chris Crawley, your colleague, we had a great conversation on Food Writers talking, and he just made a great point about you're covering the city through food. Absolutely. And really the culture and really the diversity of our city. Yeah, I mean, that's really where we find the most interest is like what the restaurants that we go to say about us as New Yorkers. And all of that, that that implies and everything that goes into it. Chris, of course, his beat is a little bit different. I mean, it's a little more investigative journalism than, you know, say Matthew Schneier, a restaurant critic.

29:56So he is really, you know, digging into court documents and and just really getting in there. So his is really like city folk. His beat is really. He's a city reporter with food. Exactly. The background a bit. I want to talk about your personal writing. You made a really cool shift. And, you know, writer, editor to writer, editor. I tried to do both in my work as well. You were the guy who was editing for years. And how long have you been at the magazine? I've been at New York for, I think, 15 years. But it's been kind of a shift. You know, when I started, I was just the editor of Grub Street.

30:33And Grub Street was still very much a blog back when blogs were around. So we were doing six, seven posts a day. And at that point, you don't have any choice. You have to be editor slash contributor because there aren't enough hands on deck to produce as much as we needed to back then. And, you know, yeah, that has shifted into being sort of overseeing all the food coverage. Yeah, and honestly, I'll jump in and say, like, you have kind of taken the newsletter writing to heart. And I love it. You're terrific. You write a terrific newsletter. There's great info about new restaurants, I'm sure, right, about the new pizzeria in Brooklyn.

31:13But also there's a little bit of gossip. There's a little bit of takes at the bottom. And I just I love it. And really, you had not been writing with Frequency for years. And now you're you're writing. What's that like? You know, I think that every editor will tell you that they are writing. It's just the difference is like now my byline is on it and I'm kind of starting from the blank page. So there is an element of, you know, I guess it doesn't it doesn't feel like a big shift to me, really, because basically for a long time we had the website and we had the magazine. Right. And so where is a story going to go?

31:48Where does it make sense? What does each outlet need? But in the last several years, and this isn't a unique phenomenon in New York, there are now all of a sudden all these other venues available for information. their social and their newsletters, which are really big. And at some point we were having a conversation at the magazine and saying, you know, we really miss that energy of like the very early Grub Street days or especially the Eater days where there was this little like nugget or germ that you would hear and you could just turn that into a story on the site. But the way that reader habits have shifted and the way that the media landscape looks now, you can't really publish, you know, a 120 word news tidbit on the site and expect it to do.

32:30Yeah, it's a link on the page or text on the page is a link and doesn't really work. And so we kind of were thinking, well, do we do a roundup of like gossip for the week or where does this information exist when you find out, for example, that, you know, Taylor Swift went to a restaurant and everybody who had a reservation had their reservation canceled that night because Taylor Swift decided she wanted to show up. Where's that at? That was the 86. Okay. Yeah. And so, you know, you're hearing about these things and they're just sort of fun and insidery. And they're the things that people are talking about when they're out having a drink or dinner.

33:00And we wanted to find a place where we could put that. And we did have this newsletter and we were publishing it as, you know, here's a full essay from one of our critics. And we thought, what if we do little blips and bops and bits at the end of this? And so I kind of needed like a proof of concept. So I sort of did a couple of tests each week sort of looking around. seeing if it could even turn into anything or make sense and then sort of sent it around internally. Like, do we have something here? And it was clicking. It was really working with people. And so it became pretty clear that this was now my charge.

33:35You had fun doing it. I do have fun. It really reminds me of the old blogging days, which is a muscle that I haven't been able to work in a while. And so that is sort of like you click into this mode of like, oh, yeah, I remember how to do this. but I think any editor will tell you also that basically assigning yourself a weekly column is the stupidest thing you could possibly do in terms of time management. Yeah, I have made that error myself over the years. I mean, just finding the time to, you know, you have an idea, okay, I want to call three or four people and talk to them about this, and how am I going to find that time?

34:09Yeah, it's three hours later. Whereas I'm trying to plow through this week's review and this huge guide that we're putting together for two issues. So finding that balance and talking to people is really the tricky part. But it is super fun. It's fun. And I think you have written provocatively about not just restaurants specifically, but just the culture of restaurants. And speaking of takes, you had a really good one. It was a piece about bringing back the tip jar. It was a story we talked about in Food Writers Talking. And I want to hear about the response because I think there was definitely, at least from our episodes, I got a couple messages on Instagram about it.

34:46It was provocative. You know, it's funny because I didn't think of that one as especially provocative. But that one started with just this idea. I'm sitting there. I'm using these screens to buy coffee or whatever. And it's just sort of irritating. And then you're constantly sort of churning ideas around. And is there something here? Is this a story? So my first step was I just contacted Square. And I said, I'm thinking about doing something on tipping. Do you have any data? Do you have any information? Is there somebody I can talk to just about trends, you know, whatever it is? They got back to me.

35:21It was like an hour. I mean, it was so fast. And they just sent me a spreadsheet that was like, here is all of our tipping data for the last 10 years that we've been tracking. These are the average percentages across every industry that people are tipping. And you could just see it dropping, dropping, dropping, dropping, dropping. Then, you know, the pandemic comes along. There's a little blip up and then dropping, dropping, dropping. And this year was the first year where it was below 15 % as the average. That's crazy. And it just, you know, it put it in such stark terms, like I'm not the only person who feels this way.

35:52Clearly, there is something going on. Let's express that. I don't have any real answer to this, but this is obviously a problem and something that we're dealing with and something that everybody is encountering, you know, and it's not that we're saying we're anti tip because we are clearly not. We are very pro-tipping, pro-labor. And it's obvious that for whatever the reason, you know, the inflation of goods, the fact that, you know, a dollar just doesn't go as far as it used to, whatever it is, it's clear that the gratuity is not keeping up with the cost of living. And so how do we at least raise awareness of that so maybe a conversation starts about how we can do something to change it?

36:35And I think the big part of the piece was about the UX of these screens that were presented with. And you made a great point of, you know, the one, two and three dollar tip at like the coffee shop, the bakery or the sandwich shop and where a lot of tipping happens is maybe broken. It just, you know, you see so many people who just walk away. They just don't want to deal with it. They encounter this and it does start to feel like a chore. And so that's why I was thinking about the tip jar, because that never felt like a chore. That always felt like a moment for generosity. You know, I'm going to throw a dollar in.

37:10I'm going to, you know, whatever I have, I get the change back. It's 90 cents on my$3 thing. I'm going to just drop it in, whatever it is. Whereas this, it really, you can tell just watching people out in the world, they are confronted with this. All of a sudden, it's like they have a job to do and they just don't want to perform it and they just choose to walk away. Yeah. So your suggestion is just like one button, add gratuity and have a bar that's like add a number. I think even, you know, there are places that do it right. There's just the, you know, it pops up at a tip one, two, three. And OK, there you go.

37:39Like at a coffee shop, you're never really going to get to a point where the tip is more than like three or four dollars anyway. So why am I getting this endless array of options? Yeah, yeah. Another piece, and maybe this is the one I was thinking about, provocative, because I was speaking with many people about it, and it was about the restaurant spiel. Basically, that time when a server sits you down and wants to tell you about the menu. Let me tell you about how we do things here. and you wrote a piece called The Spiel Has Become a Scourge, which I think is a really, really great headline. And I was actually traveling that week and I was talking to an operator, an owner of a restaurant, and he had read it and had a lot of thoughts about it.

38:20What was the response to this piece? You know, I think it was a little divided, I guess. And probably that's my fault. I should have been clear with what I was trying to say, maybe, but - You were clear. I think you were clear. I think some of the reaction that I saw was like, we aren't trying to silence the labor class. And it's like, yeah, that's not really what I'm saying here. I don't think so. At all. That criticism seems a little bit of a stretch. But the response was, you know, good. I think anytime you write something like that, you do wonder, is this something that I'm feeling or is this something that everyone is feeling?

38:56And it had really become a running joke every time I went out that we would sit down. You know, I go out with the same five or six people because we're going out a lot. And it's people who maybe don't work in media, but they want to check out new restaurants. They like doing it, whatever. They're available. And it was just a joke that we would sit down. It's like, OK, here we go. And we were sitting at a restaurant. I was sitting at a restaurant. It was Bartolo, I know. And I didn't say in the piece, but I'll say now because obviously we love Bartolo. Yeah, it's on your list of top 10 restaurants of the year.

39:23But the server is like, should I do my spiel? And you could just see that he was so resigned to it. and we knew that it was coming and we said, yeah, do it. We want to hear you do it. And it just, you know, I think that what happened was it's serving a different purpose than what I think was the intended purpose. I think that operators want it to feel like a moment of connection and they want it to feel like you are getting to know the server. Obviously prices are up. And so you want to feel like there's this level of service that maybe wasn't there five or 10 years ago, and this is a way to do that.

39:59But I think what happens is so often you can just see them sort of reciting the script in their head or hitting the talking points that they were told to hit. We have many fine actors who work in the service industry and wonderful memories and performance skills. There are people who can do it really well, but more and more it was starting to feel just sort of rote and mechanical. And I think that it was, you know, that person didn't want to be doing it. We didn't want to be doing it. And it was sort of breaking the illusion and the fantasy a little bit of like, this isn't really what this is supposed to be.

40:29This is supposed to be a moment where we're just having a nice conversation about something that they feel really good about. But for whatever reason, management has decided that this is the way to do this and it's sort of collapsing on itself. It is. I think there's one key point you bring up, which is just the price of menus. The number next to the menu item has increased to a level that makes a lot of people feel uncomfortable, particularly those visiting New York and many do and I feel it's like a justify your existence moment where you just have to like explain what goes into this meal to justify the the 49 next to the uh the Dorad yeah and I think prices have kind of I mean they've leveled to a point where it's the sticker shock is sort of over if you go out enough it's like it's high it's definitely high but it's not so high that you just think like wow this is not what this was like you know 10 years ago, which is whatever.

41:22And the reasons why are, you know, multiple, you know, so many reasons and nobody's getting rich off of their independent restaurant, you know. And so I don't know. I think that increasing the level of service is a good way to add a little bit of value to the restaurant experience. But the spiel itself was just not the tool that was unlocking that, you know. And like I said, I think it was sort of undermining that goal a little bit. So I think it was just sort of, Once you can put a name to it, once you can kind of try to encapsulate that idea that people are feeling, you have a piece. 45 seconds is your number.

41:58That's like the golden number right there. 45 seconds is my number, but only because I think people have to put it in a training manual. Really just like if someone feels strongly about something, yeah, I want to hear it. Like that sounds great, but I don't want to hear about it. I was thinking – I don't know if this was in the story. I should have looked back. I was thinking about the server who was really going hard on recommending the morsel mushrooms at a restaurant. Oh, that's tough. We're looking for the morsel mushrooms. And she definitely meant morale, which is like, fine. That's an easy mistake to make.

42:28But it was just such a tell. Like this was a list of something that she had read and was now trying to endorse this thing that she didn't actually feel very strongly about. And you just feel sort of, I don't know. It's like I said, like the fantasy gets popped a little bit. You see the labor happening. And you don't want servers to be put in that position where they have to say this thing they don't really want to say. And they watch the diners kind of glaze over. So it's just like let's have a moment of like real connection. That's great. That feels good. And the places that do it really well do it really well.

43:00Like diner, for example, you know, the server sits down at the table and writes the menu on the tablecloth next to you. which is like as spiel as it gets. But because it's all baked into the service, it's like, it's such a fun little moment. It's such a fun moment at Diner Williamsburg. I mean, I think back to my favorite meal in New York of the year was at Fowlwich. And Fowlwich is like really technical cooking. Like the pastas are really, really, some of them are pretty avant-garde, but no spiel, literally no spiel. Like we were just presented with a menu and they went to work and they were very busy that night.

43:36And I just, I was so refreshed by the service. It was effortless. They just kind of, they did the job. They brought the dishes. And we were kind of left to design our own menu. And I fucking loved it so much. I mean, I think that it really, you know, a big part of that is just trying to figure out instantly what a table wants if you're a server, which is a real skill to begin with. And I think that that's super hard. So I understand that, you know, trying to sort of navigate what's the vibe here is a tricky thing. and the places that do it, like I said, the places that do it well do it really well.

44:10And it's just about, you know, my sense of it is just training mixed with experience. I mean, you need the people who have done it. Today's episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. As a food writer, I can be a little skeptical about subscription cooking boxes you hear about on podcasts. There's big talk about cooking simplicity, but you're usually left with disappointment after smashing that promo code. Now, Clayton, have you ever tried one of those subscription boxes? Yeah, Matt, my friend gave me a code for that one that has all the chopped vegetables in little baggies. I felt like a drug dealer trying to cook dinner.

44:42Yeah, man, I have so been there. ButcherBox is a true exception. I was sent a box of premium beef and pork and was blown away by the quality and variety. There was 100 % grass-fed pasteurized ribeye, tri-tip, and ground sirloin for my favorite at-home smash burger recipe. George Motes, you better watch your back. For pork, they sent me a beautiful center-cut pork loin for slow roasting. I was super impressed. And I haven't even talked about the ribs, which I cooked in my Instant Pot. There was a rub of salt, white pepper, and togarashi. And I pressure cooked with water and apple cider vinegar.

45:19It was incredible. These ButcherBox ribs are amazing. For nearly a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in every box for a year, plus$20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. Visit butcherbox.com slash taste to get this limited time offer and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. So on to the year of dining. I want to start with a zoom out question. You know, Alan, in general, were you seeing any overarching trend, we'll call it, or just like movements in New York City dining in 2025?

46:07We definitely saw a lot of trends this year. And the one big thing that struck me is I think this was the year where coming out of the pandemic, places were opening. Obviously, the industry was getting back on its feet. There were places that had been in the works that were stalled. There were operators who can, you know, access a lot of capital to open a project like in a hotel or something. This was really the first year where we saw operators who had an idea, wanted to have a restaurant, had gone through the process of like getting the backing, finding the space, going through construction, opening like that whole process.

46:46It really kind of came to fruition at a lot of places that opened this year. And so it was this kind of I don't want to say like there were other places, but this was the first year where where I think almost everything on our list, if not everything on the best restaurant list, was an independent restaurant that had gone through that process. Yeah, it's a good point. I think that New York's coming out of the pandemic, the economics become more stable. They've become more stable. And I think that you see operators open with more confidence because I think in 24 even, you know, we still were looking at capital raised in 23, a lot of unknowns.

47:25And really, are you feeling our diners really, really back in seats in New York? I think so. You know, my theory from like like around like 2021, 2022 was that restaurants were sort of boring on purpose just because getting back into dining rooms was like such a strange experience. and you were seeing friends that you hadn't seen in like literally two years and you were connecting with people and we were all sort of relearning how to live with each other, that you didn't need to then on top of that layer on a chef's vision for, you know, what a crab dumpling could possibly be or something. It's like you didn't want that added wrinkle of complexity.

48:05So restaurants were more about facilitating a good time and getting people together. And now I think you're finally starting to see there's been enough of that foundation that people can really take a chance by offering, you know, a point of view, which is what we saw a lot this year. And a really strong sensibility in saying this is how I want this restaurant to be versus, you know, this is the restaurant that I think is going to make business sense right now. Well said. Well said. I totally agree with you. So this list is a group effort. I mean, it's a group think from yourself and your colleagues, you know, Matthew Schneier, Tammy Teclamerian, and Chris Crawley are all bylined on the piece.

48:47I want to just hear a little bit about some behind the scenes. Coming up with this list of the best new restaurants, how did you, the four of you, kind of come to this list? I wish it was a spicier process just for the purposes of this. So it's a Google Docs. Well, you know, right. There is a spreadsheet. But, no, you know, we sit down for a meeting. a month or two before we're really going to start getting serious about our list of the best restaurants of the year and just all of the year-end coverage. And that changes each year based on, you kind of have a sense of what's coming up and if there are going to be spots that might make sense to include.

49:27This year, we were a little earlier than usual, but only because we felt like we had a pretty good handle on the big things that would be around. But we sit down, we have a meeting, We all come to the table with our ideas for places that we think are great. Our tastes are all very different. But for whatever reason, coming up with that list of 10 spots is usually a pretty seamless process. We're looking for what I'm looking for, especially as I know that I'm going to be editing the piece, is like I'm looking for that spark of like when you mention a restaurant's name or a dish or something, everybody just kind of perks up a little bit.

50:03Everyone's like, oh, yeah, that place was great. and once you get 10 of those that make people respond like that then you you feel like you're really on to something and we also have a second list that's just like kind of we call it like the superlatives it's like the one-off things that we just loved and so a lot of times a restaurant will come up and it will be you know maybe the overall restaurant experience wasn't so great or we just feel like for whatever reason it's not like one of the 10 best maybe it's like the 11th best restaurant of the year, but there will be some dish or some little service trick or some dining room element that we just absolutely love.

50:40And so that allows us to kind of, well, let's place this here and then we can reserve that spot for a restaurant like this. But you're also, I mean, you know this, anytime you're putting together a list like this, you're looking at how it all balances together and you don't want, you know, 10 of the same restaurant. Or geography. I think it made a really strong effort for geography of the list. Absolutely. And I think we get lucky because the kinds of restaurants that we love, we are looking for new sensibilities, new voices, new arrivals. And so just by virtue of the economics, those restaurants tend to open around the city in places that are maybe a little undervalued because that's where people can afford to open whatever project they're dreaming up.

51:23Yeah, but it wasn't all Bushwick, which is good. It's not all Bushwick. It's not all Ridgewood. It's not all Chinatown. Yeah, Dime Square, yeah. It's sort of we're trying to, you know, we're trying to look around, you know, and we go to, you know, we're everywhere. You are. Well, I'm not going to go over every restaurant. And I'm linking to the great feature in the show notes. You should definitely read it. But I do want to go over a couple of the selections that really interest me. The first one is a hot snack bar. You know, what draws you to this restaurant? It's small. It's driven by extraordinary buzz.

51:57It has an interesting location. and the one thing about Haas that I've heard both on the mic and a lot off is that the menu is always changing and I think like frankly I've heard mixed reviews because of that. You love it though so tell me more about Haas. I do love Haas. I think that you have this restaurant they're on Broom Street they are in this tiny tiny I mean it's like it is the size of a studio apartment and you can see everything that's happening the kitchen is wide open it's the size of the kitchen that you would get at a studio apartment in, you know, on the Lower East Side. And you have this couple, Sadie Mae Burns and Anthony, and they are married and they are just opening this project.

52:41They have done pop-ups around the city. This is a restaurant that exists through like sheer force of will. Like they want this to happen and to succeed, and they are not going to stop for anything. So then on top of that, you have this really interesting culinary sensibility, which is this sort of Vietnamese French fusion where there's a lot of bistro cooking, but then there are all these Vietnamese flavors on top of that. And then you have this really nice sense of like the, you know, the wine and the drinks and the value that they're trying to offer people because of who the crowd is and who their fans are.

53:24that is like catnip to a person who covers restaurants in New York City. So, of course, everybody descended on it immediately. And it really did sort of live up to expectations. You know, whatever kind of faults that it has based on just the parameters of what they have to work with in their budget. It's like you're kind of overwilling to look that because it is so well-meaning. At any restaurant, what we're really looking for is like a sense of honesty. Yes. And that really comes through there. These are people who just want to make a very good restaurant. And when our critic went to review it after they had opened, I can't remember, you know, he had been a couple times and I can't remember who made the first point of contact.

54:07It's usually like a restaurant usually gets wind that we're going to review it when our photo department gets in touch or our fact checkers get in touch. Because obviously our critic goes in anonymously. Sometimes he's spotted. Sometimes he's not. But, you know, his visits don't always turn into reviews, et cetera, et cetera. And so in this case, they got wind that we were going to review it. And they asked us, you know, very nicely, please don't review us. We are so busy. we are not looking to do any more press and we really are hoping to lay low and so you know I got on the phone with them and I said you know look we're not trying to make anyone's lives more difficult we're not trying to harm your livelihood because we know that you know this restaurant is you know everything it's not like you know some celebrity chef in a hotel where if it's not any good who cares they'll go on to the next one um and so you know we are interested in telling the story of this restaurant to our readers and really talking about it for the people you know we're not michelin we're not world's 50 best it's not a review from us is not just this is a good restaurant go eat here it's trying to tell the story of the place within the context of the city and trying to explain to readers why there's so much interest around i mean it's the news media it's food media you are a journalist you have to report on the news and this was a big opening.

55:32I mean, like it or not, as the operator, they created a news moment. Well, and, you know, regardless of whether it was us or Helen at the New Yorker or it was The Times, it was going to get reviewed. And I think within two weeks of ours publishing, everyone else did review it. And I think from what I've heard, everybody had the same conversation with them. Please don't review us. And it was kind of like, well, we can't resist. And this restaurant is just so good. And, you know, they are just easy to root for. I mean, that's what you're really wanting and hoping. And I know that they have another bigger place that is like right around the corner.

56:10Not literally, but in the time. Well, I think both literally and in the timeline. I mean, it's just about to open. And so, you know, you hope that this sensibility that they have can kind of pervade the restaurant scene a little bit more because we want more of it and we want more people to go and check it out. Well, speaking about a buzzy opening, let's talk about Kabawa because on paper, when I was reading about it, you know, pre-launch, my read was, it was a pretty high stakes opening for the Momofuku group. You know, I love the chef and I've always enjoyed his work, but honestly, it felt like a gambit.

56:46And I love the meal there. And Paul is, Carmichael is is just a terrific chef. And I have to say, I was really pleasantly surprised to see it on both New York lists and national lists. Why include it? And also did this kind of factor in this, this high profile nature of the opening? I think, you know, before they opened, I had, I had sort of not written it off exactly, but, you know, Momofuku was in a real lull. You know, their heyday had been 10, 15 years ago. They had closed a lot of restaurants. There was a lot of focus on the grocery line and you just think okay well you know that's that was a great moment in time we've all sort of moved on things have evolved the way that they closed co was also just you know it was quick and kind of like something just felt a little off about it you know they didn't give people a lot of uh it was notice it was closed under duress it felt like like it wasn't their uh their ride off into the sunset exactly and so you know things just felt like they were really having a problem.

57:47So, you know, who knows what this is going to be. Yeah. You go and you are immediately charmed. I mean, it's just it's unbelievable how happy that restaurant make you walk down this dark alley. The restaurant itself is still pretty dark, but it just feels like there is all of this like great goodwill inside coming from the kitchen, coming from the staff. Everybody is so friendly. The chef, Paul, is like has this huge mile in his face. He's there, you know, talking to all the diners and just having this great time. The food is really good. It is not unlike Haas, driven by a very clear point of view, a real appreciation for, you know, a part of the world where the cooking hasn't been elevated to this fine dining level very often.

58:31We speak about Jamaica and the Caribbean writ large. Exactly. Yeah. And, you know, you just have this great time. You leave happy, which is obviously the clearest indicator that you've had a good time at this restaurant. and you know the first thing you want to do is tell all your friends about it and go back and so from there it's like it's a pretty easy choice of like this place is great and i think as far as all the new restaurants just in the last calendar year it might be my favorite i mean it really is the place that uh you just you can't wait to take you know it's like when you see a great movie and you can't wait to tell a friend to or like watch it with them or show it to them it's like you can't wait to take a friend to this restaurant and show them what they've been missing Yeah, and I had a great conversation with Paul Carmichael about six months ago, and that's a great.

59:17If you are a fan of Cabal, go back and listen to that episode. Let's talk about two restaurants that I, just from my read, could not be more different. We're talking about Santi and Sons, and they're both on the list. Alan, just let's talk about these two restaurants together and what drew you to their excellence. I think it is that sense of, you know, for us, what drew us to the excellence of that is really like these are two chefs who are in their element and those are completely different worlds. They are very different audiences that I think that they're speaking to. but you see both people in this really great groove where Santi, you know, it's a midtown Italian luxury restaurant from Michael White.

1:00:07It's a place ostensibly where business deals are getting done. It is a place for, you know, regulars before they hop on their train at Grand Central and go back home to Nassau County, whatever it is. But you sit down and it feels like Mireya in the early days. Yeah, it does. is just the food is so good. I mean, like it is so much better than it needs to be. I love that. Like it is delicious. They have this mushroom pasta that is just, you know, it's creamy and it's mushroomy and it's beautiful and you just eat it. And there are so many layers of flavor going on that you can't even believe. And the food, you know, the food at a restaurant like that doesn't need to be good.

1:00:45I mean, we talk about Stefano Secchi and we talk about Missy Robbins and even Carlo Marocci as like these pasta geniuses in New York. And we forget about Michael White. Michael White, who's been doing it for 20 years. He just, you know, and it's not like it comes as a surprise necessarily, but you just can't believe how good everything you're tasting is and how consistent it is, which is really not the case even at, like, great restaurants. You know, some things are better than others. But it is just so dialed in that, you know, we couldn't ignore that. And, you know, a couple of us felt that way.

1:01:22A couple of us. So was there like a debate in the room? No, I mean, I think, you know, not all of us go to every place. And I think Santi was a place where it made sense for, you know, our restaurant critic to cover. He reviewed it. And, you know, but if your beat is not that, I think it's pretty easy to say, okay, well, the high end Italian luxury midtown restaurant is maybe not a place where I need to go if other people that I'm working with are going there. Yeah, yeah. So, no, the people who had been there, we all felt that way. Okay. Whereas Sun's is kind of the opposite. that she had been doing pop-ups around town for a long time.

1:01:56You need to retake that and just give her a name. Yeah, it's Sunny, right? Sunny Lee? Sunny Lee, yes. Yeah. And so Sunny Lee, the chef and the owner, had been popping up all over town. She was at Achilles' Heel for a long time. She had built up a lot of goodwill. She had a lot of people in the industry who were really rooting for her. And she finally found this brick-and-mortar spot. and it really is just the pure expression of her sensibility. You know, this like, she had this banchan pop up and it really is just coming across. Like again, like with Haas, there's this sense of honesty that comes through and I think with Haas, Sons and another restaurant on the list called Bong, you see that same story play out there.

1:02:40Different restaurants, you know, the sensibility is very different but the scale and the ambition is the same and what comes through clearly is that these places succeed because the cooking is so good. If the cooking was not interesting, you know, it'd be kind of easy to just move on. But they really, you know, they demand your attention because they are just so focused on having a great time and making food that is absolutely delicious. So the view is the final entry on your list. And I feel it's almost poetic because I forgot about The View. And I was asked by a friend to give some pre-theater recs.

1:03:22And I gave my spots. And I did not mention The View. And it's an interesting choice. I've heard great things. I've not dined there, so I don't have any firsthand experience. But this is an opening from Danny Meyer. And it feels like you made a real editorial choice to include The View. We did include The View. It's only last because The List is alphabetical order. Of course, I know. And so it's not like we were ranked. No, no. But no, the view was we were in the meeting to talk about the best places. The view was a place I threw out. And it did. Everybody kind of raised their eyebrows for the reasons that you just mentioned.

1:03:55And I said, no, here is the reason why. You know, I have two daughters, seven and four. When we were working on a story about the opening, I had the layout open on my laptop. We had this beautiful photo of the servers working in the dining room. One of my daughters saw it on my screen and said, what is that? And I said, this is a restaurant that literally spins inside. And she said, I want to go there. And I said, yes, we should go there. So we have dinner there. And I think, you know, a lot of people had these restaurants that they went to as children where it felt like you were getting a little bit of access to the grown-up world that you wouldn't have otherwise.

1:04:35You know, we take our kids out all the time. But if it were up to them, we'd go to Cafe Spaghetti and Montague Diner six nights a week. Love Montague Diner. Great call. Love them both. Great restaurants. But they are not the same as giant Times Square rotating two-story restaurants. And so, you know, you could watch their eyes kind of get big as we're in this place. And they are having this moment of like you feel like you're in an environment that is a little bit larger than life. And I think even as an adult, it's easy to see that and to feel that. And just the ambition and the scale and this ridiculous idea that this restaurant is going to turn very slowly the whole time that you're eating is like places like that just don't exist anymore.

1:05:15Felt like this sort of very old-fashioned, very earnest optimism that had fallen out of favor. But at the same time, I found it just like irresistible. And when my four-year-old's birthday came up a few months after we had been just to check it out when it was new, you know, oh, it's your birthday. Where do you want to go for a birthday dinner? Do you want to go out? Do you want to do anything? I want to go to the restaurant that spins was her love. Like pure like that was just what she clicked on and wanted. And so, you know, Chloe, to her credit, probably got the view in there. Danny's happy in team.

1:05:51But, you know, I think that they just they they understand what they are and they really deliver this sort of like this big Apple version of New York experience that was I found really fun. I think it is easy to kind of be a little cynical and jaded and dismiss it. But I just really loved it. And I feel like you can't go there and forget about it. And you love the food, obviously. The food is OK, I would say, on the record. It was pretty good. It is, you know, what you would expect. Obviously, a big chunk of their business is out-of-towners who are looking for a special night. It is like it's not trying to break any molds, but it absolutely delivers on the promise of what that room is.

1:06:33Listen, Alan, I just have to say refreshing that you just kind of articulated why I love your list. I think when you create these lists, it's an impossible challenge. But a lot of times it's like virtue signaling of the publication and they want to like show knowledge and like a depth of interests. And this is not on paper the most interesting restaurant. But you are aware of your reader and New York Magazine readers have kids and New York Magazine readers have friends who are in Midtown. And you put it all together and you have to write about these restaurants. And that's why this choice is it's inspired and it makes sense.

1:07:19I mean, you know, look, they have live piano music. They have, you know, chocolate cake that is like as big as your head. It's like it's just a fun, really old fashioned restaurant that, you know, deserves to be celebrated because of that. And, you know, I think any list that can include a place like Bong or a place like Haas and a place like The View, which is in, you know, a Marriott Hotel. It's like to me, they are very different restaurants, but they all come from the same place, which is like, you know, there's a vision and a real point of view that are driving it. Yeah. Well, let's close and talk about other restaurants that are on your radar.

1:07:59And we focus on the new, but I've repeated it many times and I'll say it again. We need to support restaurants that have been open between two and seven years and longer, really. And I think the media oftentimes focuses on the new. New York Magazine is not one. And you do big packages with, you know, historical restaurants and best of and they feature many older restaurants. But give us your take on maybe other favorite restaurant visits from the year that maybe aren't in that new shiny object zone. Yeah, I mean, I think it's tough because a lot of the dining is new. I mean, it is like there are just so many places that have opened this year, especially.

1:08:36I don't really remember it ever feeling so busy that you really want to check every place out. But at the same time, you revisit, you know, I think you mentioned like two-ish years old. And I do think that once a restaurant kind of gets out of that best new restaurant world and the shine kind of wears off a little bit, that's when you really, really start to see who they are and what the restaurant offers. so I'm even thinking of places that opened like last year like Borgo is a great example of a restaurant that I think really grew into itself and you know I went I guess it was like the end of the summer was the last time I was there and you just they are so confident in what they are doing you sit down you feel like you're in Pennsylvania or something I mean there's all this blonde wood everywhere the tables are like six feet apart I mean it's insane how much room you have and they know exactly what they're doing.

1:09:29They're doing kind of rustic urban New York Italian-ish food. It's a lot of like wood fired sausages, you know, roast chicken. But they nail the thing that I think is what keeps people going back to any restaurant. You just feel good. I mean, the room feels good. They obviously have their regulars. They have their crowd. You feel so taken care of and you feel like these people really just want you to have a good time. Yeah. And so a restaurant like that, I love. I mean, And Zimmy's to me is a weird one where it's maybe like my favorite restaurant to have opened in the last year or two. And it just opened like right around Thanksgiving.

1:10:06So it fell into this sort of strange zone for editorial reasons where it didn't end up on any of these lists because it was either too new last year or too old this year. And, you know, we've covered it a lot. We've reviewed it and we've written about it. But, you know, it's like French country cooking done in this really kind of like cool downtown space that to me it feels like the high wire of that kind of cooking of like, really, I'm not going to garnish it. I'm not going to hide anything behind any bells and whistles. You know, when they opened, they had like a bowl of lentils was the side.

1:10:42I mean, that is as brown and anti-Instagrammable as it gets. It is like so unsexy. but to do that really feels like a statement of purpose. You know, like this is the restaurant that we want to be. We want to be sort of humble and delicious above all else. And we just want this to feel comfortable. I think they've changed it. It's now French fries, not lentils. Okay. But, you know, they have a business to run. They have a business to run. Yes. So I can't fault them for that. But it is just like, it's the place that I want to go back over and over just to see what they're doing because it is so good.

1:11:19Another place that I really love is in Brooklyn Heights. It's called Inga's Bar. And it's another place. It sort of opened right during the pandemic. It became, I think, really, it became a date night spot for like Brooklyn Heights parents. But it's the same thing. It's like they're so consistent. It's, you know, it's burgers and it's, you know, a Caesar salad and it's, you know, a plate of mortadella with brown butter. And it is just so comfortable and so easy. and they really come at it with just a slightly different point of view that it's not pandering. It is, you know, food that they want to make and you just sit down and you feel so taken care of.

1:11:57Inga's has its fans, its neighborhood fans, its quintessential neighborhood restaurant. I mean, I really love Inga's. It's a cool place. And, you know, I wish them all the success in the world. They took over a pretty storied spot. So that's really hard to convince people to give you a chance. And I think just by virtue of being really good in all of the ways. You know, I love a restaurant that under promises and over delivers. I mean, that to me is like the real sweet spot. And I think Inga's is exactly that, where they are really, you know, you can't even find a menu online. They don't have a website.

1:12:27You really cannot find anyone that's quieter about its intentions and then delivers just a really nice, happy, delicious experience. All right, I have to close and put you on the spot. Early word out of the New York Magazine editorial offices on Bobbo. What are you thinking right now? I'll tell you my Babo story. I went there. I went there. No, we went there early, checked it out. I was with two other people. We sit down. We have like a five o 'clock reservation. We didn't call in any favors. We just went on resi. That's what was available. Journalists do. John George is next table over. He is pounding a hundred layer lasagna so he can leave to get to the next game.

1:13:07He just wants to check it out, go to the next game. And so we sit down. Carole King is playing, and one of the people that I'm with says, you know, this is not a song that would have ever played at the old Bapo. It was all Led Zeppelin. It was all Rolling Stones. It was loud, and it was fast. We continue on with our meal. Stephen Starr, the owner who owns 10 ,000 restaurants, comes, sits down at our table without missing a beat, says, okay, about the Carole King music. The reason it's playing is because we try to ease into the night. and he didn't really care about explaining the music. He wanted just to show us that all ears were on these tables and that the staff was so committed to like, we are going to understand everything that's happening at every single table and relay that to the owner immediately.

1:13:58One of the people we were with, he works in the industry, and he said, you know, there are rumors that Stephen Starr mics up his tables, but I don't believe that to be true for the record. Please investigate that. I think they just have staff who is always looking out and keeping an eye on everything. But, you know, so they are really focused on every single detail. And I think you go to a Stephen Starr restaurant, you know, like I said, he has so many of them. It is such a machine, that company. And you can tell, you know, they nail the lighting. They nail the music. They are thinking about everything.

1:14:29And I know that that Carole King comment resulted in a real think about how the playlist was operating. I was there a couple weeks ago and there's definitely some hovering going on around the tables. They have like a nice placement of a large central table where they can kind of perch. But so how was the meal? It was good. I think that the level of hype around that place is they have an impossible task. They are trying to be everyone's memory of their best night at Babbo. they are trying to wash their hands of all of the controversy around the restaurant and all of the kind of bad feelings that people had for a while and they have to be a new and exciting Italian restaurant in New York City in the year 2025 and I think that those three things uh I diplomatically I will say I think it takes a little bit of time to figure out how to do all of them and so you can't come right out of the gate necessarily and be just like you know nail all three of those things I appreciate it.

1:15:33I'm sure I'll read about the full assessment in your magazine. I think if the Carole King detail is any indication, they are really taking to heart any potential blips and, you know, focusing on how they can make it better. But, you know, again, I don't have any horse in the race. I think it's a great space. I remember, you know, having great meals at Babbo. There are certain things, though, that you sort of wonder, like, was it as good as I remember it being? Or is this just, you know, rose-tinted glasses as I'm looking back with nostalgia over, you know, a night that I had? I said my piece about it on the show, but I just remember being extremely sick after many meals at Babo in the old game and feeling so much lighter and better.

1:16:14And I had an 8 out of 10 meal there during my visit. Yeah, that's great. That's great. I mean, I think that they are, I don't know, they're doing something different. There is, again, it's like there is a real sensibility that's driving it. It doesn't feel like any other restaurant in the city, which is, you know, that's great. Yeah. Well, Alan, thank you so much for speaking about the year in New York City Dining. I hope to have you back soon. Great. Thank you for having me. I'm always happy to come.

1:16:43Mahira Rivers, this is Taze. Thank you for coming back on the podcast. Thank you for having me back. Happy end of 2025. Yes, we made it. I can't believe it. I feel like this year has been the fastest year so far. I actually, I have to co-sign that so hard because I don't think I've experienced a year that has flown by as quickly as 2025 has. Well, I'm sorry, or maybe not sorry to make you dig back into the year and try to remember all the things that have happened, but I'm excited to reminisce together with you today. Totally. If you were going to define your 2025 in eating in a couple words or a meal or a restaurant?

1:17:22Is there anything that would come to mind? Yeah. So I think it's been a prolific year in restaurants. And I say that as someone who has just been watching restaurants open one after the other and really exciting restaurants. And there's a lot of dynamism in the industry. And I feel like a word or two that I might use to summarize it all up is potentially cautiously optimistic. I feel like, you know, in terms of variety, there's so much out there right now. And quality, like, I think there's so many incredible places to go eat. And they're all telling different stories. And so it feels like these are tenuous times.

1:18:07And so I think to just be totally, you know, blind to the environment and say that we're living in a golden era of dining, like, I think that I would temper that with just this sense of like, you know what, our food scene's doing pretty good here in New York. And 2025 was a pretty solid year to eat out. Yeah, I agree with you. I think, obviously, operation costs, ingredient costs, labor, all of these things, like that can make it really difficult to be running a restaurant here in New York. But I think at the same time, there are so many good places to go out to eat. And when I was coming up with my favorite meals from the year, a lot of them were from new restaurants.

1:18:49And that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. But I think, like, to see people that are coming out of the gate with such a point of view and execution is really exciting. Right. Totally agree. Okay, I'm glad we're on the same page. I want to kind of dig into the year and review. But I guess to start, I feel like this is coming out around the holidays. It's a really good time to go out to eat in the city because a lot of people go out of town, maybe go somewhere warmer. So I'm curious if there's anywhere that you are trying to eat now that it's maybe a little bit easier to walk in. Yeah, so I think this is a little bit of a full circle moment for us because the last time I was on the pod, we talked about a restaurant I wished was open in New York.

1:19:26And that was Cabava. And it's here. It's open. Paul Carmichael's place. And so I have been, but I want to go back because the last time I went, they didn't have the pork chop, the chuleta. And my husband's Puerto Rican. And so that's on our list for the holidays. We're going to try and make it there for the chuleta. And then I still have never been to Haas. I have not stood in that line. And that is a restaurant that I think I have to see. Like, I just have to know and I have to go. And I'm curious because I know they're opening the bistro soon. So, yes, this is I've heard it's opening quite soon.

1:20:07I don't know exactly what that means in New York terms, but I wonder if that will make it easier to walk into the snack bar or if that will just kind of bring more attention to that whole area because it won't be that far away. Right. I fear that I missed maybe because I believe they might be changing a little bit of the experience at Haas just because now they have an actual place. So a little less seating. Right. So and maybe even like the menu, they're maybe transferring some of the things over. But anyway, I hope to get there because I feel like no one's waiting out in the cold, but probably they are.

1:20:41And I'm, you know, that's wishful thinking in New York these days with the crazy lines. But that's on my list for sure. Okay, I'll trade you with a non-new opening that I have been wanting to go back to, which is I love Raoul's so much. And I think that is a harder table to kind of get in the city. I believe they've been around for 50 years at this point, maybe more. But around the holidays, I feel like it's a really nice festive time to try to go to Raul's. I love that. I'll report back on how it goes for me. Totally. So I guess looking back at your year, you have a new gig writing for The Times, which I'm really excited to see.

1:21:16And I'm wondering if you would tell me just a little bit about what that looks like and what you've been working on. Yeah, definitely. It's exciting news. I am now back as a freelance writer, as a contributing critic to The New York Times restaurant reviews. And so what they are doing now is sort of expanding their starred review coverage, which is super exciting. And I think they were hoping to kind of give New York a little bit of love and New York City specifically, you know, have more reviews coming out that could respond to sort of this restaurant scene that is really growing. So they've added two critics.

1:21:58It's myself and Ryan Sutton, who was the critic at Eater for a very long time and also Bloomberg. And so he and I are sort of switching off and writing these starred reviews in addition to the work that Tejal and Ligai are doing nationally. And have you done any reviews so far? What are the kind of restaurants that you're beginning to focus on? Yeah. So I have published two reviews. The first one was Los Burritos Juarez, and the second one was Bartolo in the West Village. And obviously the first is Burritos from Juarez, the border town. And then Bartolo is this sort of Spanish Taberna old style, old world style.

1:22:39And those came out a couple weeks ago. So, yeah, two under my belt. I've got hopefully many more to go. How do you kind of focus on which restaurants you're going to get to review? Do you get to kind of set the pace or do they say we really want someone to go to this place? It's collaborative, definitely. It's something that we all sit together and sort of in the group chat figure out who goes where and when and all that. And then the starred reviews, like I imagine it is really interesting to think about like what star as a certain place deserves. How do you approach that component? Yeah. And for me, it's a unique challenge because I have this background at Michelin.

1:23:17And so, you know, I've got a lot of sort of training and background in thinking about it, but it's a totally different framework. So I've had to kind of translate it a little bit, which is different. And it's been an interesting exercise just personally for me. But yeah, there is criteria and we are all, you know, basically working off of the same criteria. So, yeah, I don't know if you feel this way, but I feel like around the pandemic, a lot of the reviewers did away with starred reviews. And I think recently I've been seeing maybe a little bit more of a focus on that again. I know Elazar Sontag, who is the new restaurant critic at the Washington Post, is bringing back starred reviews there as well.

1:24:00Is that something that you've been noticing? Totally. Yeah. I saw his post as well and I appreciated it. I think it is interesting because it does condense so much information into basically like a symbol, a data point. And I think as someone who has now been writing at length about restaurants and chefs, you know, you do, I think it's difficult to convey the important stuff in one symbol. And I've always said that. I've said that about Michelin as well. But the benefit is that we have words then to sort of, you know, explain why or why not in a way. And so I think it's useful. I think it's good service journalism.

1:24:50And I think it helps people understand things quickly and it helps add some relativity to the process, which is really important. But yeah, it's tough. It's always tough to, when you're a storyteller and you want to tell people long, long stories about other people and their passion projects, then it's tough to say, okay, now just take all of that and, you know, whatever X number of stars. Yeah. And, you know, restaurants are obviously such a personal experience and personal preference comes in so much. So there could be qualities that you would really, you know, like in a place that somebody else would not really be here for.

1:25:31And so their own start would be completely different. Right. That's true. I think as a critic, though, and when it comes to the criteria for the stars, there is, you know, definitely is anchored to the food, the plate and the execution. And so when you are judging these things, it does feel like the star should be it should be something that transcends like a personal experience in a way like is this food cooked well? Is it achieving its goal? Is it technically correct? You know, these are the things that sort of lead into the star evaluation. And I think that that is should be maybe less subjective.

1:26:14Yeah. Okay. Point for objectivity. When I was thinking about the big trends of the year, this probably could be said for a couple of years now, but I feel like this kind of bakery, like little treat culture here in New York has just continued to grow year over year. you contributed to the New York Times, did this package of 46 favorite little treats in the city, which I imagine must have been really fun and also difficult to kind of coalesce and bring together. And I'm wondering if you would tell me about some of your notable additions and why they were the ones that you wanted to include. Yeah.

1:26:47So this was a fantastic package to get to work on because it was not just a roundup of little treats, but there was sort of a concerted effort to make it really accessible. So it wasn't, you know, there was a price point that we had to match and like there was sort of this understood criteria that you shouldn't have to wait in a line to get this thing and you shouldn't have to, it shouldn't be too difficult basically to get this thing because a little treat, everybody deserves a little treat. And it should be like spontaneous, right? You don't have to plan your day around getting your little treat.

1:27:26Yeah, totally. that's totally it um so i contributed i think around 10 of them out of that list which was so sweeping and included like beverages and all kinds of like things from all over the world it was just so fun um but the things that i contributed uh were really like solid like you know coming from sweet city days of just like oh if you know this is something that i know hits and like people don't really line up for it, but it's great. So for me, the Medivit cake at Baselka, it's their honey cake, is amazing. I think it's the best version of this cake that I've ever had. And they do it in little plastic clamshells to go if you want.

1:28:08You don't have to sit at the restaurant. Also in Gowanus, there's a bakery called 16 Mill and it's gluten-free and vegan. And they have these scallion scones, sourdough scallion scones that are flaky and And they're buttery and they're just like really aromatic. So delicious. And then there's St. Street Cakes. I know has a little bit of, you know, love online and it's quite popular, but it is really good. And there's a cupcake bakery in Brooklyn, a Puerto Rican cupcake bakery called Brooklyn Cupcake, which is an incredible name. I love it. Hard to Google. But tells you what you need to know. And they have flavors like tres leches and flan, coquito, and like, and they're just perfect.

1:28:53This is like the ideal five-year-old cupcake. Like, it's buttery. It's fluffy. The frosting is not that sweet, but it's enough. It's just perfect. So, yeah, there was a lot of fun to kind of curate this and do, put things in here that are sort of unexpected and like kind of New York things, you know? like the stuff that has been around for a long time and maybe has fallen off people's radars, but is still very much worth everybody's time. Yeah, I really appreciate that reminder of like, not just the things that are going viral necessarily, but the kind of like neighborhood standby tried and true.

1:29:33I've been to Viselka so many times. I've never had this cake there. Wow, you've got to try it. I didn't even know to look for it. Yeah. So, you know, it's funny because I think I might have come across it for the first time on TikTok and they were showing behind, like in the kitchen, they have this sort of staff of like grandmas, it seems like, and they're all just making this cake from scratch. And it's not something I would sort of like think of first when I go there, but anything made from scratch catches my eye. Yeah. Anything made by grandma catches my eye. A hundred percent. And if she's making it from scratch at Baselka, like I'm there.

1:30:11So I went and I tried it and it was so flavorful. and it was just so homey, but really delicious. And you know that they've been making that cake that way for so many years. It doesn't feel like it's changed. And I love that. Yeah, so, and they have a whole case of like other desserts too that they make. I must be just so laser focused on getting pierogies and borscht that when I go there, I don't even pay attention to anything else. But it's important to pay attention to the dessert case in New York. I feel like that's a lesson that I've learned. Yeah, I think so. And this big guide that you were writing was kind of on the heels of another like massive pastry journey that you embarked upon for the times, which was finding the best plain croissant in the city.

1:30:52You ate at over a hundred different bakeries to find it. And I'm curious what going on that saga taught you, what it revealed and like what some of your favorites from that were. So it's maybe shocking, maybe not, but I have not really wanted to eat a croissant since then. I don't think it's shocking. I guess not. I didn't think that about myself I thought I had an unlimited palette for you know all pastries but I really think I've reached my lifetime quota of like what like you know appetite for a croissant I have eaten them but I haven't necessarily craved them which is kind of sad because I love a croissant and that's what's been taken from you yeah but it was a joy like I can never complain about that project because it was actually so fun to sort of set out and create this process for myself.

1:31:48And it ended up actually being closer to 200 bakeries just to find the ultimate 21. Yeah, this is why I cannot eat a croissant or don't really want to anymore because I was really, you know, doing my due diligence. But the ones that I still to this day can remember and, And, you know, we'll go back for at some point, maybe. At C &B in the East Village, I did go back. Actually, they have a Cuyinaman made from the same pastry dough, and it was fantastic. And it's such a low-key bakery, and they don't, you know, they're not out here saying we have the best. They're just, they exist, and, you know, they have their fans, and I love that place.

1:32:28And then the churro croissant at Birdie Bakery, it's like one of those Franken pastries. But to me, it's the best version of that where you take two things, put it together, and it's perfect. I love that. And I think with the new Frankenstein movie that's come out, there's maybe like new love for a Franken creature in some form. Yes. So maybe like Jacob Elordi would be spotted eating that pastry there. That would be iconic. He's been around New York. He was at Casa Magazines last week. Did you see this video? No, I didn't. I got so mad. I called Ayan, who's the guy who works the front, like, cashier at Casa, and I drop off magazines there a lot for cake scene.

1:33:04And I was like, listen, next time Jacob Elordi is in the magazine shop, you call me immediately. Like, stall him for as long as you can. I will be there. But, you know, obviously had a lot to do that day probably. Right. Pastries. Yes. Got to go eat all the pastries. Yes. I think, like, looking at the rise of all these bakeries, and you mentioned Sweet City before, which is the great dessert kind of focused newsletter that you do on Substack. Do you think like the current moment that we're at with bakeries is different than where we've been in the past couple of years? Does it seem like kind of the tail end of a long kind of simmering trend?

1:33:42I think that's such a great, I love tail end because I definitely think we're peak pastry, but I think we've been peaking for a long time. And I don't know where it goes from here except down, which means I'm just not sure that the industry can sustain so much. and it's all excellent which is the crazy part is that it is all really fantastic stuff but at this point maybe it comes down to sort of like business like acumen and like the ability of the business owner to then ride out the wave because there's a bakery in Brooklyn actually called The Good Batch and I was chatting with the owner and she's been around for over 10 years and she was saying that ultimately success comes down to like your business.

1:34:34I mean, yeah, and it's so obvious, but this is true. And we have so many new bakeries and so many wonderful bakeries that I wonder who's going to make it to their 10-year mark. I, you know, would hope that so many of them do. But I think what's interesting and something that has sort of happened more recently is the splintering off of general kind of like bakeries into niche specialized bakeries. And so maybe that's one way people are trying to differentiate themselves. But again, like how many times are people going to go get a cinnamon roll in a week? And, you know, if there's four choices, which we're going to pick one that you like, and there's not just four choices, there's four places that only make that, but there might be like 10 or 20 that also make it with other things and they're very good.

1:35:21So yeah, it's just very competitive right now. anything yeah and the good batch is a cookie bakery right so that's their niche that they've found themselves in but i think some of the bakeries that are really successful like radio bakery for example are split they do these they call them croissants but it's almost more like a danish with this croissant dough right these like filled kind of flaky pastries and they have a bread program and they're making these sandwiches that people who are you know working from home or they're having an off day whatever like they go and get that sandwich so to me they almost have two different waves of business that are coming in for, you know, maybe someone's getting both, but it kind of feels like two different needs.

1:35:58Totally. Right. And they're so good at the seasonal pastry drop. They change it up so often and they drive so much interest and demand and repeat visits because I think the generating loyalty and repeat customers after the hype does die down is a huge factor in whether or not you can be successful in New York. And for bakeries, you need volume. I mean, so that is, yeah, I think we're seeing so many wonderful places. And as a diner and eater, like, I feel very lucky that I have all these options. But I wonder how much this industry can sustain. And then the lines, like, I can't get over the lines that are just everywhere now.

1:36:45And there's even a TikTok account where the person says, what is this line for? And she just goes around and she's filming all the lines in New York City. And it's funny because she's now made her content like about content. And so I love that. Yeah, I got in a line recently just because I didn't know what it was for and I was killing time. And then I realized it was for a cat cafe. Oh, nice. Which is great, but it's not what I was trying to do with my day. So I left that line. I love that you just like CQ must Q, right it is the adage of you know in hong kong at least we see cues we must get into the queue so um i love that you did that i mean it was just me like wandering and then i didn't even ultimately wait in that line the whole time but i do feel like uh it's interesting to figure out there's like the sneaker drop line and the pastry drop line right if you look at the people in that line you can't necessarily tell what it's for that's true they've converged right yes everybody waits and everybody waits in lines.

1:37:48But it's funny because in, and I was thinking about this, but in Asia, in let's say Japan, like it is very normal to wait in a line. It is in a long line to wait hours for your lunch or for, or something new. And, but when I see it here, and I'll do it, like when I go to Tokyo or anywhere in Asia, you know, I'm happy to stand in the line and sort of like slide into the social sort of norms there. But when I see lines here, I become enraged. I'm just like, why? Why are you standing on line for two hours for matcha? That's like the New Yorker sentiment, right? Which is like, you've got places to be.

1:38:26And like, if you're waiting in this line, you're probably a tourist. Or like, you don't have like the in. You don't know the right guy kind of feeling. I guess so. But then why am I so accommodating of this phenomenon in places like my home, Hong Kong, or in Japan? I mean, I feel like I need to investigate this. I feel like I need to understand why, you know, I fly into a rage when I see the lines here. But I do. And it doesn't make sense sometimes because I, too, will wait in line because I want to do the reporting for Sweet City, let's say. And then if I get to the end and it's just so ordinary, then, yes, my time, you know, I feel like I have wasted my time.

1:39:07Yeah. I think I feel if I think that what I've waited for is not worth it, then I feel guilty because I have, in fact, perpetuated the line. Like I made it longer and maybe somebody saw me in the line or not just me, but the line that I was a part of and then joined it like how I so blindly did with the cat cafe. I think like maybe there's that element of reflection with it. But I was watching a YouTube video that Lucas Sin was doing for Bon Appetit about Fuhan's soy milk in Taiwan, which is a very popular breakfast place. They do Shaobang and soy milk and all these things. You know, to dunk in it.

1:39:43And he's basically saying the line is so long and that is a reason why the food is good because it's made fresh to order. And if there was a shorter line, then things would be sitting out for longer. They wouldn't be quite as good. So maybe it's also the element of like what is the thing that is made better because of the line and what is the thing that like the line is kind of irrelevant to the experience of receiving it. I like that. And I think with bakeries, too, like they're pulling out things fresh and, you know, drinks, they're making them on the spot. So there is an element of systems that is sort of begetting the line.

1:40:15You can't fault the people necessarily. No, and I think about that all the time. Like people want to be successful and find an audience, but I don't think people necessarily want to go viral in the kind of uncontrollable sense. And how do you walk that line as a business owner between trying to build that audience and then making it so that your loyal customers can't have an easy way to come and find you? Right. Yeah, that's a great point. Okay, so we're talking about sweet things, but one of my favorite stories you wrote for Taste this year was about sour and this kind of rising interest in sour flavors.

1:40:50Is that a dynamic that you've noticed in like restaurants or grocery stores or any places in New York this year? It is, and definitely in the grocery store and in restaurants too. So this whole thing began, and now I'm realizing maybe I spend too much time on TikTok, but this whole thing did begin on TikTok because I was seeing people eat this frozen fruit covered in citric acid called Fruit Riot. And then there was the Lava Shack, the Persian fruit leather, and people were dipping it in pomegranate molasses and, you know, piling pomegranate arrows on it and eating it. And my mouth would start to water.

1:41:30It's happening to me right now. It's so visceral. And I was just so attracted to this content. And then when I sort of realized, okay, this is not real journalism because the algorithm is telling me this is something. But I started to look around more in the real world and it was everywhere. Like there is sour candy that's becoming more sour. There's dill pickle flavored everything. There was a protein bar that I saw that has it's like a sour protein bar, which is like crazy convergence of two trends. But then also in our restaurants, there are places that like global cuisines that like Southern Indian, Thai, Vietnamese that are gaining more prominence in the sort of public realm of in the discourse.

1:42:20Right. And they rely heavily on fermented flavors and sourness and acidity. And these things are becoming really appealing to diners and or these cuisines and like these flavors. So I was, and Kim Ti especially, that was, and Yuzu, these types of things, there's actually, I had some facts in the story of how these have grown over the years. So, yeah, I think that being online was an interesting entryway into this trend just because it is such a online driven thing where, you know, it's very isolating to sit and scroll on your phone. But then you have this physical response to something that you're watching, which I think is actually quite rare and difficult to achieve.

1:43:01And so that's one thing. But then on the other hand, you are so like you've got this collapsing of an experience. And then on the other hand, you have this expansion where you're watching people all over the world cook their food, eat food. And I think that broadening of horizons was also really interesting to me because the diner is being pushed in sort of these different directions. And it was really fun to report that because I got to speak with some scientists that I wouldn't normally. And there was a professor of sensory sciences at UC Davis who was telling me that sourness is actually not a very studied flavor because I guess a lot of the money for research comes from corporations that are trying to understand how to reduce bitterness, enhance sweetness without necessarily adding too much sugar, and saltiness as well.

1:43:55primarily because these will make foods taste better, but there are health implications. And so the research is done to try to like make food taste better or be less, be more healthy. So there's really little done with sourness. And I thought that was really interesting. And then I spoke to a professor of experimental psychology at Oxford University, which is a great conversation. It was just like A to Z to like, you know, we were just all over the place. But it was really fascinating to sort of hear how the scientists are thinking about putting together digital and physical, taste, sensory, all of these things now.

1:44:35Yeah, I mean, I think this could be a whole book, honestly, because it is so interesting to think about. Like, sugar obviously is carbohydrates. We were evolved to crave that. Bitterness, the scientist is saying, maybe was a taste that we were developing to know that something is poisonous. Although now radicchio and these chicories and these bitter things are becoming popular. Sour, it was kind of unclear. Like what, maybe it's because of vitamin C. It's true that saliva, which is like basically the feeling that we're having right now when we're talking about this, helps you digest food. So there are some potential things.

1:45:06But really like the fact that we, it's almost like spicy, right? This thing that has like a strong reaction that some people like or dislike. That we all are kind of looking for dopamine and wanting this more than ever. Totally. And I think that spicy is such a great parallel because you do have people who are kind of taking it to an extreme online. You have shows like The Hot Ones where, you know, it becomes a sport almost to see how much you can tolerate. And I found that there are candy brands that are trying to do the same thing. They're really like all you do is just keep adding citric acid and you can amp up the acidity of a candy.

1:45:47So you can kind of play that same game. Yeah. I mean, I was a child of the 90s, so I was eating warheads on the playground and trying to keep my face as neutral as possible. But I love – I was – as a kid, I would eat lemons and my mom would try to make me stop. Like it's a flavor that I'm really drawn to. And I think what you're saying about ingredients like tamarind or even just like a really good amount of lime like appearing on restaurants and having more sour things that you can seek out. Maybe that's why I love the story because it's just a trend that I want to see more of in the next year.

1:46:18Yeah, and I think it will continue because the minute you have like big businesses like a Mars company, candy company, or, you know, getting into the sour world and exploring that flavor, I think, you know, maybe that means the trend has died, actually. Maybe it is now too big to be a trend and it is just what it is. But I think that the cool thing is that it has sort of opened up a lot of people's palates to new things. And I love that. Like that is something that I love to see happen in food. And it's great that this one little flavor or feeling can sort of guide people to a broader path of, you know, pleasure ultimately.

1:47:07I mean, it's all about pleasure and enjoyment. Yeah, I love that. And I guess speaking about enjoyment and things that we have enjoyed seeing this year, I'm wondering if there are a couple new openings that, you know, were kind of your favorites you'd want to shout out. Totally. And actually, this is such a perfect segue because I was just thinking in my mind when I was doing the Sour Story, I had had a previous conversation with the chef at Lay, the wine bar, which is by far probably the restaurant that I enjoyed eating at the most. You and I are like Lay Hive. I was there last night. Oh, I'm so jealous.

1:47:47And Patti Lee, who's the chef there, I think is just like such a talent. Totally. And I had written about the granita that she makes there for T Magazine. And in that conversation for the granita, she uses sour plum. And we were talking about sort of the origins of this ingredient because sour, you know, is such a fun thing to explore. And she was telling me that probably it was like the sour plum that we know and love from China, from Taiwan. It probably like came to the Western Hemisphere with immigrants and kind of adapted into the local cuisine and has now manifested as chamoy. So chamoy has these Chinese origins, which I didn't know about before talking to her.

1:48:36And I love that. That was really a cool thing, a cool discovery. But basically, Patty's awesome, and she clearly knows a lot about food and ingredients. And that's why I love, you know, going to restaurants where you can tell that the chef has, like, spent time thinking about the meaning sort of behind their food. And I really enjoyed Lei because, you know, wine bars have been super, to use my word, from earlier prolific this year. And I think that it was cool, but now that there are chefs sort of riffing even on that template, on the wine bar template itself, is much more exciting, in my opinion, as a diner to have these flavors and ingredients presented in a totally new setting.

1:49:24I don't know if you had the pickles. I don't remember if they dropped that as like a welcome, like their sort of, I don't know, version. I have not had the pickles. Okay, so we ordered that. But those to me were the highlight of the whole meal. And they were just a simple trio of probably seasonal. So the tomatoes are probably gone. Oh, you know, I did have pickled tomatoes over the summer. Yeah. Now I'm remembering because that's an unusual pickle to experience. I feel like I've only had like green pickled tomatoes before. Right. And they peeled the tomatoes, those little tiny cherry tomatoes.

1:49:56And there was even, I think it must have been a pickled cucumber and then some pickled green. But I was eating them and immediately transported to these like little packets of pickles that you can buy from the Chinese supermarket. And like they're delicious, but, you know, they're industrial things. And so they taste quite salty and a little bit one note. But like the pickles on the plate at Lei were just the perfect version of that. And I love that that was, you know, the attention to that type of the attention to that dish was just really special for me. Is that your like number one restaurant?

1:50:31I don't know. I hate ranking. I'm like really bad at ranking stuff. Sorry. No, no. I mean, I should. No, I mean. I don't think you need to pick one. Is there maybe one other opening from the year that you would also want to shout out? Yeah, I mean, obviously Kabawa was such a wonderful experience. And I really loved sitting in that room just knowing that it had at one point been ko and now we're here. And it is an evolution of what I think David Chang started so many years ago. So, you know, so, yeah, philosophically and also culinarily, it was such a cool dinner to go to. I also really like Ban An Em, the Vietnamese restaurant.

1:51:17Their banh mi sandwiches are fantastic. My husband and I, we were having lunch across the street at Yellow Rose one day and we're like, what should we have for dinner? And Ban An Em was across the street. So we're like, oh, I'll place an order for the sandwiches. and we'll take those and we'll have them. And we did that. You guys really know how to live. I love that. Yeah, this is the thing. When you're eating and you're thinking about your next meal, I embody that to a T. That's been on my list as a place that I really want to— honestly, maybe that should be where I try to go around the holidays because I've been worried about the line.

1:51:53I think I read a review that said it was like banh mi for texture lovers, and that really got me. Yeah, I think absolutely. I mean, at its best, that sandwich is for texture lovers, and they nailed that sandwich so totally. The bread is beautiful. It's probably the best, you know, Vietnamese style baguette in the city. And the fillings also are just so good. It's a really great sandwich. And there's another isekia that opened, although this one, I don't know. It's called Hori, and it's in Midtown, but it's invite only. So I suppose that would be difficult to impossible to get into. But I'll take you.

1:52:33OK, I'll take you. Is there like a house list or something? How do they? Well, I was invited by somebody. And then if you are if you enjoy it and you want to be on the list, then you can ask them. Oh. And then they will add you. And I think this is a very typical sort of method of maintaining your guest list. in Japan. And so they, the chef was hoping to recreate sort of that inside vibe of just, you know, we know you and we can all be chill and we can all be cool. But I love it because, not because of that. I don't, I mean, I personally have a hard time going to Japan and trying new places because it can be exclusive and difficult to get into places.

1:53:21And so that's not why I love this place. But the inside, once you do get there, the food is really wonderful. It's so affordable. Like, I don't think there are many dishes over$12,$12,$15. It's like really inexpensive when you think about it. And it's just relaxed and it's cool. And it feels like you're not sitting in the middle of Midtown in New York. That's really cool. And I will say like one of my favorite restaurants I've ever been to is Polizzi Social Club in Philadelphia, which is a members-only Italian-American restaurant. And I think they open up membership maybe two days a year. And if you're in the neighborhood, you can come by and get a card.

1:53:59And then every member can bring up to three guests with them. But the food was so delicious. But also just the vibe felt really like you're in someone's home, kind of. And I imagine that maybe that kind of business model is an extension of that feeling. Yeah, I think so. It is really like they're curating the vibe on the inside. And you can't necessarily do that if you lose control of the reservation list, which, yeah. Okay, interesting. Okay, I like all of these ideas. I know that we are still in 2025, so maybe looking ahead into next year is a little ambitious, but I'm wondering if there is anything that you are either hoping to see more of or a specific place that you are excited to see open next year.

1:54:41So I think I've mentioned Haas too many times already on this episode, but I do want to go to the bistro when it does open. I am super excited about that. And Kamari Mick, the pastry chef, she's out on her own now and she is opening something. So I'm really excited to see that. And then just recently, actually, I read that there's a Korean Cajun spot. It's called Cajun. It's close to where I live and it's tiny. I walk by there all the time and there's never any, It just looks very small. But I heard that the chef is going to relocate to a new space not too far. So I'm excited for that. And then there is a pop-up right now that I've been to that was quite good called Hop.

1:55:31It's a Cambodian pop-up from the former chef at Red Hook Tavern. And it was really lovely. And so I think in 2026, he's going to open his own place. So I'm excited for that. All of those ideas. I'm such a fan of Kamari's pastries. I just, at Natasha Pickowitz's bake sale, had the focaccia that she made with the cauliflower crema on top. Did you try that? It was sold out. Oh, I'm so sorry to flaunt it. This was like the one thing I purchased before it opened because I love her stuff so much. But this restaurant that she's opening, I think hopefully next year, I believe that one of her partners is the woman from Miss Lily's.

1:56:13Yeah, I think Brittany, right? Yeah, yeah. I think it's going to be a really special restaurant. So I like that reminder. Yeah. I guess one that I'll add, which I don't know if there's a timeline on this, but I was speaking with Cheyenne, who does the pop-up Chey's Burgers, which is a very great, very popular burger pop-up here in New York. I know that they're looking for brick and mortar. So that would maybe be a nice thing to have to happen next year. Is there anything unusual about the burger? I mean... Or it's just like a delicious burger? He does a couple different styles of burger. So I don't know exactly what would be on there, but it is just kind of like the quintessential, you know, pseudo smash burger that one could think of.

1:56:53But I've also had like, not to mention Haas again on the show, but they did the, they did a steakhouse pop up at Leo, I believe last year, maybe the year before that Shy was with them and he did like a bistro burger for that menu. I knew that was a little bit of like the kind of thicker patty that normally is not my favorite ratio, but it just worked together really well. And I think like I'm not a big – this sounds crazy. I don't eat a lot of meat, but I love a good burger. There's something about it that just hits for me on like a deep level. And I think that like that is always achieved when I have these burgers.

1:57:27Wow. That is high praise. It is high praise. I was just, you know, talking about the Krabby Patty burgers and Spongebob. So it might be that I'm just burger pilled right now. It's also winter. And I feel like what's better in the wintertime than like hot? Yeah, absolutely. I want to close with shouting out like one not new restaurant that we think deserves love. I know we were talking a little bit about the places we were trying to get into. I guess I will contribute one first while we're talking about the cold, which is that I just went to the new Maxi's Noodle location in Manhattan, Chinatown.

1:58:03This is a really great wonton noodle soup restaurant that has two existing locations in Flushing. And this like spiritually healed me. It was so cold. I was frozen when I got there. And I think it's just such a perfect like clear broth. The biggest wontons I've ever had. They're huge. They're huge. They're like shockingly huge. And they were hidden beneath the noodles. And I thought that maybe I missed them. And then obviously they took up the whole bowl. But this Maxi's noodle I think is so good. You stole the words from my mouth. Did I? Yes. This was one because it's winter. I feel like the first thing that comes to mind is like a hot soup.

1:58:42And I love Maxie's. I think that her dish really takes me home to Hong Kong. It makes me feel like I could be eating that bowl in Hong Kong, which is really hard to do here, I feel, with the ingredients and everything. But if I were to add my own, I guess, so a family favorite that we go to is Chisiamo, which is Hillary Sterling's Italian place at Hudson Yards. But we really, and it's not new. It's not like a, you know, small little cute downtown wine bar, like, you know, by any means. In fact, it's the opposite. But the pasta there is so good. The gelato there is incredible. and it is just a really consistent, solid restaurant and the service.

1:59:31It is a Union Square Hospitality Group restaurant, I believe. And so it's always warm and welcoming and it's got that sort of like big restaurant feel that Danny Meyer does very well. And so we love going there as a family and we don't go to very many places repeat. So that has to be one. I guess there's another one closer to my house that we order in from a lot. When I miss, you know, South Asian cooking, my mom's Pakistani cooking, it's called Hyderabadi Zika. And it's Indian, but they have a lot of biryani and things like that. So I'll order that when I miss home. Okay. I love all of these recommendations.

2:00:16I feel so lucky to get to be a diner in New York and to talk about it here with you. Thank you so much. Thank you. I hope you have a happy and healthy and hungry 2026. I love that. Same to you.

2:00:34This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skirzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.