711: Real Talk About Restaurant Stars and Awards with Marc Vetri

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0:31that's why i like i have this whole like you know sayings you know hug the noodle you know because the the noodle has to hug the sauce the sauce has to hug the noodle to make that happen yeah through movement this is taste i'm your host matt rotbart

0:59Chef and restaurateur Mark Vetri is behind the legendary Vetri Cucina in Philadelphia, among many restaurants. He's also the author of several cookbooks, including the terrific The Pasta Book, Recipes, Techniques, and Inspiration. I really enjoyed having Mark into the studio to talk about his deep love for both pasta and pasta cookbooks, We talk about the early days of Vetri, as well as how a family recipe was passed down for one of his new openings. I hope you enjoy this conversation.

1:37Mark Vetri, welcome to This is Taste. So great to have you back. How are you? So happy to be here, man. And I'm awesome. Life is amazing. I mean, you know. Could not agree more. Very lucky. I'm glad you said that. I think like your career is really something that I've admired for two decades. I mean. Even longer now. Well, what I know. Almost three. No, you've been doing it. Yeah, yeah. But I think I've been heading down to Philly and visiting your restaurants for 20 years and really just have deep love for what you do. Oh, man, that's really nice of you to say. I mean it. And a lot of folks who've come through your kitchens have become big chefs and we've had them on.

2:16And so I have a lot of questions about your career, but also your terrific new book, The Pasta Book, which is a continuation of your journey. Pasta Book, yeah. With pasta, you did a terrific, well-regarded, award-winning book 10 years ago, and now you're back with a different one. Mastering Pasta, yeah. Yeah. That was an awesome one also, yeah. So amazing. But you were cooking last night at Risadora. Risadora, yeah. Tell me about that. Well, I just met him like last year and it was just kind of one, you know how sometimes you meet like, you know, other, other, you know, the restaurant owners and you're like, oh, nice to meet you.

2:53And then, and then you meet them and you're like, I love this guy, you know, and he was, you know, we just kind of mesh, you know, he worked in Italy. I worked in Italy. You know, we just knew all of the same folks. And when I was like thinking about, you know, the events and, you know, who I want to have one with, you know, he was like, you know, I have to have one with him. And then it was just an incredible meal last night. It was just so fun to actually hang out there. We ate there for lunch. Oh, cool. You get to try some. Which is really nice. Yeah. Really awesome. And yeah. Then we did like a 14 course, like everything right out of the book, you know.

3:34but it was just one, like one ravioli, one yucky, one forkful of this. Which is what you want. Which is like the coolest thing. Well, that happened. That was kind of like, you know, I opened up back in 2020. I opened up a restaurant over in Asia, Kyoto. Yeah, yeah. And so I've been lucky enough. I mean, I have a restaurant over there. That's really fucking cool, right? No, really fucking cool. It's like not on the bingo card. No, to have your own restaurant to Kyoto is pretty special. Last year we were eating there, and I was eating another sushi and omakase. And it was my, like, whatever, eighth and ninth one.

4:18I was just eating it, loving it, one bite, one bite. And it's just like, why can't we make this for noodles? One ravioli, one four-fourth of pasta. because you want to try the pasta shape the dough the way it's been constructed the condiment the garnish but we want to try a lot of them and I think Stefano Secchi who you mentioned does an incredible job with his tastings where we just we can't eat that much pasta we can't it's just heavy and like you know you want and you just non-stop eating but this is really nice you know so we were able to do 14 courses everybody ate everything which was you know even like the last the last, you know, one was the actual scallop raviolo, which is, you know, which is in the book.

5:04And we were like, oh, I don't know how they're going to finish it. Everyone ate everything. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, you weren't like full, you didn't roll out. And you had like all these different flavors, which is, you know. I think like the best pasta cooks in America, yourself, Missy Robbins. Missy's amazing. Evan Funke. Stefanosaki. Stefano, yeah. These are, these are. Yeah, the list goes on. This goes on, but I think they are, you all are proportional in the way you serve pasta in restaurants. It wasn't always the case. Yeah. I was just like reflecting on Bobo and just like the early days of Bobo.

5:38It was just so heavy. Some. I mean, I got to say, I used to love those mint love letters. I had it. Mark Ladner brought them back. I know. I got to go. I had one a few nights ago. Oh, really? Gosh, I got to go. Those mint love letters are incredible. But I just think in general, seeing pasta courses and tastings come out with proportion and like having the guest in mind, modern and very cool. It's just really like nice. And yeah, the old adage of like noodle with like the ladle on the sauce is like, that's why I have this whole like, you know, sayings, you know, hug the noodle, you know, because the noodle has to hug the sauce.

6:17The sauce has to hug the noodle. and to make that happen through movement. I mean, through that emulsification step. Exactly, exactly. And that's the biggest challenge with cooking pasta at home is getting that perfect moment. Yes. It is a moment also. It's like, a little bit more water, add a little more. It's like you have to look at it. It's almost there, not quite there, a little more heat, a little less heat. But then, okay, here's the question. As a home cook, you see this happen. You have a perfectly emulsified sauce in pasta, but then you drop it on the table and then people keep talking and people need to use the bathroom and people need to go check their phone and it sits there for three minutes.

6:56Well, I think that there is certain noodles that that works with and there's certain ones that you have to eat right away. So if I'm making something that you have to eat right away, I will be like, eat this right now. But if it's like rigatoni with my sausage ragu, that could sit there for like 30 minutes and it's awesome still. So it's like certain ones. So what are the ones that we need to serve a la minute? A la minute are usually like fresh noodles, like a thinner linguine, like a thin fettuccine. Those start to kind of stick together and you're going to lift up the whole thing in one forkful.

7:44And that's a great note. Those you have to eat right away. But, you know, the thicker ones, rigs, and even like raviolis, even if they're thin, like agnolates, raviolis, tortellinis, you can leave them in there for a little bit. They're going to be fine. Which is a great tip for dinner party hosts. But it's those longer, flat, thinner noodles that you have to eat right away. Yeah. Like doing ketchup happy with linguine. You got to go out. No, that's going to cloy together. Yeah, I know. and then it's like I think Cacio e Pepe obviously you have it's master recipes one of your first recipes but doing it at a dinner party I would not recommend that no and we do listen we now for all of these the events you know because everyone wants us to make something it's just like all we do now is rigatoni sausage ragu because you can make it it can sit it's easy it's not gonna mess up before we get into the book more I want to talk about Michelin.

8:44Philadelphia just announced their first stars. Exactly. I mean, long time coming. Long time coming. And I know Michelin is important to you. And you've worked at Michelin restaurants as a young cook. I have, yeah. You were seeking them out. Results are in. And I just want to ask you, how do you feel about the results of Philadelphia? I mean, I feel fine with it. I think that awards are, you know, I think most folks, like, they get either too happy for an award or like really, really sad for an award. And I've always thought of like the nomination as the major thing, right? We were nominated for, you know, 14 Beard Awards.

9:24Every year I was at the awards. We never won. But it was still like fun and it was like still like we're there. We're being recognized. You know, we were nominated for the Michelin star. We can get one. But, you know, and but even if we like won one, we'd be happy for a day. And then we go back to work. And like, that's it. It's like there, you know. So I think that that for Philly, it's like really awesome because we've never had it. So cool for Philly. We worked like really hard to get them there. You know, I was actually working with. Yeah. Yeah, like we were working with the governor to, you know, because he didn't know what it actually was, and I had to be like, listen, man, you know, it's a lot of money.

10:15However, you know, they're going to eat here. They're going to stay here. They're going to walk around here. They're going to spend money here. They're going to stay overnight here. They're going to visit the museums here, and it's worth it. You went to the governor's office. I did. You met with the governor. I met with the governor. You met with the governor, and you made the case that Michelin means a lot for tourism, and that investment was worthwhile. I would say it's netted out even already, just getting the awards. We were crushed this week, the whole freaking week. Yeah. Everyone was crushed.

10:50Every, like, restaurant was full. The hotels were full. Like, so already it's worth it. And, you know, and it's always the same thing. Everyone's, oh, my God, Mrs. Garner. it's never what you think it's never the restaurants who you automatically maybe it's one or something but it's not always the restaurants who you think and there's never like I mean many of them you know you everybody say oh this one's gonna get one this one's gonna get one it's never like that but it's just be happy and like whatever I'll say two things I think you're right about it's a one day thing it's the same with media awards same with any award or any list you celebrate the one day San Belgrino yeah the Beard House you're on a list a 50 best list okay oh that's awesome man they recognize us but then it's like back to work yeah it's one day of celebration or deflation but then you move on and you get the next but I mean I I personally think it was an oversight that your namesake restaurant did not get one Michelin star because just of the history of it and just what my I've John and Aaron my great friends in Philly who I consider the they're my sources for what's happening in Philly and they have always said your restaurants and particularly Vetri is like it is one of the city's best.

12:06I think it's pretty cool. So, you know, we're having fun. We just had our 27th year anniversary. And we are a new restaurant every single year. We evolve. And the thing that's really, really amazing about it is we have, you know, 25 staff members now who have been working with us for over like 12 years. That's very cool. It's a big, it's a really big, happy family. And that's what's important. And it's a great point. And the fact that you're busy. And I looked on your reservation and you can't book there. We're busy. It's busy. It's great. I'm on everything. From February 20th to March 7th, dive into Canada's biggest culinary festival, Montreal en Lumière, an exclusive partnership with the McCord Stewart Museum and its exhibition, On the Menu Montreal, a restaurant story.

13:05The 2026 festival invites food lovers on a flavorful journey through time. Montreal's top restaurateurs will reimagine 65 years of the city's iconic astronomy, crafting inventive, nostalgia-inspired dishes with a modern twist. Prepare your palate, world-renowned chefs, including several Michelin-star talents, will team up with over 80 of Montreal's finest local chefs to create unforgettable, one-of-a-kind menus. The full program is available at MontrealOnLumiere.com, presented by Lotto Quebec in collaboration with National Bank. Hi there, it's Matt, co-host of the show. We are currently running a This Is Taste listener survey, and we'd love to hear from you.

13:48Do you have a guest request? a restaurant you wish we'd visit to talk about on three things? What about a lesser-known cookbook author who deserves a spot in our studio chair? You can let us know by clicking the link in our show notes to complete the survey. It will only take a couple minutes, I swear, and will help us continue to make the best show possible. That's the This Is Taste listener survey, link in our show notes. I want to ask you a little bit about just the style of Vetri, of your namesake and long-running restaurant. I mean, you seem to have pioneered something that you see now in Philly as a commonality, which is putting your restaurant in a townhouse, in a brownstone, in a cozier, homey setting.

14:32I think fine dining before that was in hotels and more traditional spaces. And now you see it. Philly is now known for that style of restaurant, which I think is special about Philly. How do you feel about being kind of a pioneer in that world? Yeah, I mean, like it just kind of happened. I wasn't like looking for anything. I just, I remember, you know, I was in New York in 1996, 1997. And I really wanted to, you know, open up a restaurant. And I was looking here a little bit. And I was like, wow, the rents are like nuts. Like I'm going to go home. And then I started looking around there and I started finding things.

15:15and then you know the old the old you know everyone's like oh you know when you're ready to open up a restaurant let me know I'm gonna give you money and then I was like okay great so I found a restaurant a little bit larger and I like needed like whatever $500 ,000 then and everyone I asked was like oh man now's not a good time I can give you like you know 15 grand I'm like yeah man okay you know so I was like I have to find something little you know and then And there was a restaurant named Chanterelle, which was the original Lebec fan. Yeah, yeah. The original Lebec fan space. And it was like small and it was like 30 seats.

15:54Yeah. And I just remember walking in and being like, and I literally walked in with my father. And I walked in and I was like, this is it. And he was like, come on, this is a little nothing. Let's get the fuck out of here. And I was like, no, no, you don't understand. this is like La Bruguera which is where I worked in Italy looks exactly like it had like you know and I was like I can make the yellow walls I can make the wainscoting it's really small it reminds me of it and it was it yeah and then then I opened it up for 150 grand so it was like I don't know that kind of budget yeah and I didn't need anybody I did you know how big was your staff when you opened there was me one other line cook one dishwasher Jeff Benjamin who's still my partner he was the manager there then he was also the server and then we had two other servers and Erasto the busboy who is still with us still working with us after 27 years I love that what's the early days of Vetri like these menus i mean are you're known for shaking things up mark and you see it in your book work too you just have recipes pouring from you and ideas yeah are you are you writing new new specials weekly are you rewriting the menu often when i opened it was like still remember this is like 1998 everything was like red sauce you know so and i was and i was you know walking in there with like, you know, wild boar ragu and like spinach gnocchi and then like sweet breads and sweet onion crepe.

17:41And everyone was, I mean, we used to literally have like folks walk in and be like, this isn't Italian. You're never going to make it. I mean, it's sort of wild. I have great fucking story. And in Philly, you know, the opinions are flowing. I mean, and we were slow, man. You know, we were doing eight, nine, 15. And then the weekends were like, okay, you know, 50 covers or 60 covers. It was nice. But then, you know, what happened was the weekends were like mobbed. And I didn't like it because it was just like, you know, folks would order like one thing. So I was like, hey, why don't I make a six-course menu and only offer it Saturday night?

18:25no and for $65 a head which was like oh my god how am I going to charge that yeah Prince Lee Sum at the time for pasta too or Italian food not just pasta so I had that and I had one menu and it went like wildfire and I also I started getting art and I liked you know my handwriting is because you know I mean it's interesting I used to like hand, uh, paint the menus and hand write the menus every week. And I would write 15 of them, you know, because that would like last through the night. I could let four people have it then and other four people have it. So now the, the, the, the old ones are like, they're, they're all on the wall.

19:19And if you look at them and I just, you know, think about it, I'm like, I, I used to make up three new apps, two new noodles, one new entree, and two new desserts every week, Monday to Wednesday. Thursday, I used to paint 15 menus. All one of ones, like by hand? All of ones, because you have to leave them for a night. Friday I would hand write all of the menus and then Saturday we would have it. And I did that for like 10 years. I know. And when I think about now when we're like working on something like new and it's like one week for like one new fucking dish, you know, and you're like, oh my, oh yeah, we got to tweak this, got to put a little bigger.

20:15I used to do that like in an hour, you know? Yeah, yeah. And it's just crazy when you look at all those menus and see, and it was wild. It's a remarkable market. It is. And really, this restaurant just means so much to Philly because it really introduced Philly to the style of fine dining that you were seeing a little bit in New York at the time, but really putting Philly on the map for a place that has this world-class cuisine. We evolved also. Yeah. When we opened, it was like in Alucard. And then once we started that, then we offered that during the week also. And then we added Friday nights, only offered that.

20:56And then after like years and years and years, it was like most folks were ordering that only. So we just moved to Noa LaClar. Tell me about Fiorella. I feel like this story is maybe less familiar with our listeners. You haven't been down to Philly to see it. It's a tribute to a market that you had been to as a child. You borrowed a name with blessing from the family, and you open up in Philly. And just the food there, I've heard from my sources, exceptional for great things. It's really cool. You know, at all of my restaurants, we have, like, you know, the Garmo, the Garmo Station, the Noodle Station, Meat and Fish, you know.

21:38And the noodle station's always like the six burner range and then the water tank, always. And at some of the larger restaurants that I've had, we do 200, 300 out of there, and it's no issue. And I was always, for years, I was like, this six burner range and the water tank, that's a restaurant. That's got to be a restaurant. In years, I was like, I have to open up this restaurant. You know, small six burners. And I looked and I looked and I found one, but then I said no to it. And then Fiorello, which is a sausage shop from 1892, they were actually selling. And I walked in, and it was a long, wooden counter.

22:36I was like, this is it. This is it. Like six burner range. And we had 20 seats in there when I opened. And it was February 14th. the virus here. 2020. 2020. Yeah. Not the best time to open. Yeah. And we had 20 seats and we were just, we were doing 130. Yeah. It was like, they were just eating pasta. Four and a half covers? 40 minutes. 45 minutes they were out. Four and a half turns for dinner service? Pretty good. It was crushed. We were crushing them. Sweet. Yeah. Funny story about the name of it. I was kind of thinking like, what to name it. And I was like, oh, vetri noodle, pasta this. And I was, you know, I didn't like any of the names.

23:27And then the old owner, you know, was walking around the city and he, you know, he sort of stopped in, you know, and I was like still, you know, playing out the restaurant. And, you know, he was like, well, what are you gonna name it? And I was like, you know, I don't know, but I'd really like to use your name. I'd really like to name it Fiorella. And he looked at me and he was like, I would be so honored. And I was like, oh, my God. And then I was like, and I'd really like to use the sausage recipes. And he looked at me and said, that's going to cost you. I mean, you wouldn't expect it to use.

24:12So he let me have the name, but he didn't let me have the sausage. But I bought the sausage recipes from him. You struck a deal. The sausage ragu is the exact recipe. Okay. Can I unpack that for one second? When you buy a sausage recipe, I mean, was it a lot of money? It was a lot of money. It was, listen, I was like, listen, man, you tell me what you want. This is life's work. This is what you start with. This is like 100 years of family work. So there's four sausage recipes. And he had them on an index card. Okay, the out of card. And, you know, it was more of like not the recipe and the money.

24:52It was just like, hey, man, like you should have something for your life's fucking work. You know what I mean? I really, really appreciate the way you just described that because like you obviously can make great sausage and you've been in. Yeah. But I wanted his recipe even though it's not like this mind-blowing thing that, oh, my God, that's in it. That's secret. It's more of how he made it. Well, yeah, of course. And then also he like stopped over and he like made it with us. I'm sure he demoed it for you, yeah. Made this legendary man of South Philly like made sausage with me. Like, come on.

25:35What's not to love about that? I feel that ethic should be followed in our restaurant industry. Particularly if you have success and you're looking to build and you want to do homage. Not everyone can swing that, but if you have an established restaurant that has inspired you, there's nothing weird or corny about saying, can I buy a recipe? Yeah, and let me tell you, it was an exorbitant amount of money, but it was worth every fucking cent. I mean, I— Am I allowed to say fuck, by the way? You are absolutely—we are pro-app. Because I've already said it. No, we're good. No beeps here. Great story there, Mark, and I feel like we could talk all day about your restaurant career.

26:13and we have in previous episodes. We could. I want to talk about the book, though. You know, 10 years after publishing Mastering Pasta, again, a really terrific technical book, just a lot of, and I'll get you a story about what fans of that book ended up there. They're in this new book. What did you want to say that you didn't say in the first book with this new book? Yeah, well, you just actually said it. It was a very, like, technical book, a very, like, science-based book. Yeah, yeah. This one's more about flavors. It's really about, you know, how do we match this up with that? How do we think about this flavor or this sort of shape with this ragu?

26:57It's more about, you know, the actual creative of like everything where the other one was more like a science base. This one's fun. It's a lot more vibrant. The design jumps off the page. It's really neat. I really love it. And we had to work on that. The initial one was just like the old book, and I was just like, ah, we really got it. So I actually wrote up here, and we, like, laid it out together, and it's just beautiful. They did an incredible, incredible work on it. Yeah, I mean, there's a little bit of Memphis style in there from a mid-century Italian design. There's some – Yeah, like art sort of old school, like 1950s, like the deco.

27:45And deco as well, exactly. And then we also made these little – the videos, which is really fun. Yeah. We have little – QR codes. Exactly. Because I was always like, you know, these are so hard to show how to roll in like nine photos, right? Yeah. You have nine photos. oh, here's where your hand is, here's where it is now. But if you just watch a 90-second video, it's, like, so much easier. And that's how I learn a lot of stuff, just by looking on, like, you know, what's called YouTube. Yeah, I think QR codes are very effective. Yeah, so that's really neat. The name of it is, you know, one of those things.

28:27It's actually a fast, funny little thing. we were having this email about names. Some want this name, some want the other name. So we had this email going, notes on pasta, this on noodles, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, listen, everyone just kind of send what you think, and then we'll figure something out. And the memo was names for the pasta book. and I was just like, hey, what about the pasta book? It wasn't even a name. Everyone was like, wow, the pasta book. Yeah. There's not another one. It's really smart because it really messages that this is obviously a book about pasta but it doesn't, it's not, there's no technique or there's no word that exudes like science but also if you read it and you should buy it, I'm linking to it in the show notes.

29:25It's a great book. Honestly, it is technical. There's a lot, I mean, Making pasta is not something that you just like do on a spur of the moment for a 30-minute meal, though I'm sure you can. I think that there's so much technique, particularly with base doughs, particularly with knife cuts, particularly with hand rolling. Just little things that can actually help, you know, and there's a million of them, right? I just wanted to ask you about this great story in the book. You know, there's so much great writing you write about. your trip is in Italy and your father is in the book. And there's this essay about Yum Hwa.

30:03It's good stories, yeah. Good stories. I mean, really. It's a really good storybook also. You should actually, like, read the book and not just look at the recipe. And I read it. And I had this guy, Yum Hwa, who was living in Singapore. I think he was, like, an accountant or working business. He was an accountant. And he bought your book 10 years ago. He bought my book. Which is, I mean, that's just kind of, when he, like, was actually here and he like said that my book started him in this world. I was just like, oh my God, dude. Like that's just, wow. Yeah, so he was an accountant. You know, he hated it.