713: Inside Roads & Kingdoms with Nathan Thornburgh

27:33But every once in a while we'll, you know, kind of set something. You're not on like the UNESCO train, which can be a little bit dry and some is dubious. No, I mean, it's always about. And, you know, I I pitched this idea to Tony when he was alive and he was horrified. I mean, group travel to him. He was like, what a fucking nightmare. Like, you know, I think he was imagining following the red umbrella across the piazza or something. Big buses. Yeah, totally. What I ended up telling him is like, listen, the way we do it now is 10 to 12 people maximum. So it's about the same size group he traveled with as a production crew.

28:08We have a week. It's about the same length. We're chasing a story. Like there's a narrative and we're trying to build blocks along the way to kind of tell that story. And we're doing it through great characters and great locations. And that's it. I mean, to me, if we do it right, it is going to feel like those productions that we were lucky enough to be a part of with him. And certainly what he did with ZPZ for years and years. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Tell me about your 2026 schedule. I mean, the Angola news, I mean, it's truly a pioneering move for at least a U.S.-based operator to do a trip to Angola.

28:45But that's just the start of it. You have so many trips. And again, I am so impressed with how you think about the locations and it not being the expected. Yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong. We have we have loved going to Sicily. Sure. You go to Piemonte, of course. In Piemonte. You know, Sicily is one of those places you could get pushed off an airplane at 30 ,000 feet and you would land in a lemon grove and someone would hand you a nice minerally white from the slopes of Etna. You don't need us, but I really love the way we do Sicily and it feels like it's pretty raw. We're working on Sicily for 27 for taste travels.

29:20Yeah. Just to cut in. Totally. And I don't mind that. But one thing I am excited is that I am seeing a lot of growth in places like Angola, southern Thailand, like Krabi, Yunnan, China sold out in a minute last year. and is just such a heartfelt, expressive trip that is all in the world of the bi-ethnic group. I mean, things that are, you know, just fairy book ideas in my mind that all come from our local host, Jane Young, over there. And, like, those trips are actually, I feel like they're getting more, you know, kind of more traction as we go further in our time. We also have a lot of repeat travelers.

30:07So we've had people, We literally had someone that we met in Sicily on that first trip, then went to Sardinia, then went to Tasmania, and then went to Angola and is coming to Kansai, I think, with me in 2026. And that's a hell of a progression. So we want to be able to keep challenging ourselves and other people with these really fascinating locations. But again, it can't be just pointing at a place on the map. It's always got to start with who's the person that we know. Yeah. I want to talk about this dynamic of group travel because we've had repeat travelers as well on our trips and there's something special about reconnecting and having some shared experiences in the past.

30:47But I think for the most part, I love group travel because you meet people and you're experiencing these locations with a group of like-minded people. Now, sometimes, you know, you don't want to be around people. And that's just like that's fair. And like there's built in time. But I've always felt if you put yourself out there, you meet some strangers. It's so rewarding when you come back. Like, man, I got to meet these people that they're different from me, but I connected with them. Yeah, we have seen some shocking examples of this. Our very first trip to Piedmont in 21, this group, they had an amazing time.

31:24they continued traveling without us for years. They still do it. They do at least once a year. They've met up in Iceland. They've met up in Napa and Miami. They came from three different countries. They were very different people in their civilian lives. But when you bond through travel, like there's something that, you know, that's a real litmus test. Like, do we have a good time traveling together? And I've actually come out to just say hi and like have a dinner with them every once in a while just to pay homage to this insanely strong and beautiful relationship they have. Now, that's not every trip, but, you know, we have WhatsApp groups that we set up before, and they are just crackling.

32:04Like, the wires are always going somehow. They're sending each other recipes. They're, you know, kind of remembering something from the road. It's like time feels different. I mean, you know this. Like, when you're traveling and you're experiencing something that new and that unfamiliar, year they'd like there's an elasticity to it and and people are just you know it's a week but it feels like a lot more to people oh my god it feels like a lot more and i i'm just going to jump in and say the the group trip uh when the operator is is making all of the hard decisions in advance i know it's a high price point it's probably more than some spend but if you actually break down seven days in piemonte these days it's going to be you know a thousand a day but likely more um There's just something about traveling and not having to deal with the logistics.

32:53I think that is something that maybe our listeners don't recognize. They think tours are like the buses and the umbrellas. But you get to kind of observe and absorb and let the operator do the hard work. It's amazing. We do have a lot of type A planners who are engaged with this. And, you know, our tagline from the beginning was group travel for people who don't do group travel. Like we really wanted to appeal to the people who were the planners in their family who really dreamed of these things because I think they could also appreciate the art really well. And then also appreciate having just a break from it.

33:33And whatever happens is not on them. They, you know, we're very detailed about what we're going to get up to. So people have a good sense of what it is. But it's a beautiful thing. And we also try to make it like a totally money free environment. Like once you land, like you don't have to pull out cash from the ATM. Like we take care of all the tips and all those little things that can kind of nag at the brain of like, am I, you know, am I prepared for this or that? It's just like, relax. Like you have no, you have no job now. It's well said, and I think it's definitely needs to be stated because when you're in like southern Thailand, culturally, you just may be unaware of the customs and there is that pressure.

34:13Am I doing it right? And also just there's a lot of moments where you have to make judgment calls on the fly and it's stressful. Yeah. And to not have to deal with money or like just the transportation. Yeah, that alone. And, you know, our Thailand is always run by Andy Ricker, who's a friend of Tony's, great chef, but also just a really good communicator of Thai culture. And he works with Ma Peng Komak, who's one of the great connectors of the Thai culinary world. And there's, I mean, everything from how you eat, you know, what times people eat and why and like, you know, how you get from place to place.

34:54in Hanoi, we have a, just a little quick intro and like how to cross the road without dying, you know? Oh yeah, needed. Definitely needed. All of these things can be very useful. And, and we find that, you know, we tend to, you know, be geared toward people who have gone to a place before and maybe want that deeper dive. Yep. But it is still, you know, it's amazing to, to really get it firsthand from people who, who live it and know it and communicate it really well. I love how Andy, you have him involved with trips outside of Thailand, too. He's just clearly such a traveler. I've known Andy for years.

35:28I love talking to him, and he clearly enjoys his work. Oh, he's our number one everything guy, but certainly on recon, just going through to a trip and just being like, yeah, this will work and this won't. I mean, the guy's an operator. I mean, obviously, with the number of restaurants he built and kitted out over the years throughout the States, that part of his brain is still just absolutely on fire. So I've been very fortunate that he has turned that, you know, kind of obsessiveness to the details of the trips. And really, we've been with him since the very beginning. He his DNA and like his, you know, kind of talent for logistics and and and hospitality that are a huge part of what what it is that we do, even on trips that he's not on.

36:18But, yeah, I would I would and I have traveled with that man all over the world, not not just in southern or southeast Asia. Yeah, he's he's tremendous. He's a fun storyteller, too. A few more questions. I want to know. I know you base these trips around people, not necessarily destinations. But that said, are there destinations that you just haven't quite cracked the code for that you really want to launch for the next couple of years? There's got to be a few. I'm just been so curious to ask you this. Yes. I'm going to drive everybody insane by mentioning this again because everybody I work with knows that this is literally my white whale, which is the Baltic Sea and the German side in particular.

37:02Wow. You know, there's a lot of biography and like, or autobiography and like personal, you know, interests that go into this. But I lived in the former East Germany when I was a teenager. I lived in Russia, which we're definitely not going to. But that whole kind of Eastern, you know, everywhere from Prussia on East fascinates me endlessly. and the only problem is that every time I talk to a German friend of mine, even ones who are in food, they're kind of like, hmm, what if we did like a Sprotten tour of the coast and Sprotten are these tiny little oily fish. And I'm just thinking, you know, God help me, give me some of that good old-fashioned Italian abundance.

37:45I don't think the Sprotten tour. The Sprotten doesn't sell, doesn't just pop off the page as well. So, yes, I'm dying to make it work. I think I may be haranguing my beloved travelers one step too far to ask them to come on a windswept gray beach. I mean, next level League of Travelers. This is like the all-star game. Get the all-stars together. Yeah. I mean, I have to say we did a trip to Belgium, which we only did because our Italian partner did a book on Belgian beer, Eugenio Signoroni. He is, I will follow him anywhere, even to Belgium. And it turns out it was awesome. They catch fish on, or shrimp on horseback near Dunkirk.

38:32And it's one of the wildest things I've ever seen. They're throwing nets from horses? Yeah. So they've got these like percheron, like they call them, Belgium draft horses or Flanders draft horses. And they are huge horses that drag nets through the surf. And they come up with these beautiful, tiny, sweet, sweet gray shrimp. And you've got this like fisherman, you know, arriving like a Norse god out of the waves. It's the craziest thing I ever saw. And it happened on a flat, gray, windswept beach. And so I shouldn't knock it, I guess. How many trips next year are you doing? We are doing of the public trips, we have 29.

39:14Unreal. Yeah. That is a Google Doc, my friend. It's a big number. I mean, it's not a big business. We'll put it that way. We've always endeavored to keep it in the cage as we say. It's like, you know, we are an editorial shop. Matt and I are editors. Charlie Wilder, who's our executive editor, is an amazing, you know, kind of commander of words and people to create editorial products. So that is what, you know, our main goal in life has to be. The trips will always be this hugely important and meaningful part for us. But I couldn't possibly, you know, see just doing 100 trips and farming it out to people I haven't met or places I haven't been.

40:02It needs to stay that kind of handcrafted. Otherwise, it's just something else entirely. 29 is still, that's impressive. um let's let's close in in here about the magazine because this is a big moment to to kind of bring back a lot of that energy pre-pandemic with your editorial rigor i know you're still publishing on roads and kingdoms but this is a new era for you and i and you chose print we did choose print and you know i i don't know how you feel about your career in media i feel like i'm sometimes such a product of the moment that i made the decisions in which is not to absolve myself of my many, many mistakes.

40:43And I will continue to make them on a daily basis as a publisher, I'm sure. But, you know, if one of the things that I love about this moment in media, which is, you know, for good reason, seen as incredibly challenging, but I think that there's a context now for people to engage directly with brands and with media outlets that they feel connected to. That is that they will pay for the content that they are receiving and people understand that on some level. I also feel like you can get by with having the right-sized audience. I mean, even though we never took institutional funding or anything, we still were a digital publication in the age where Vice was at least saying it got 3 billion clicks and they, you know, rule the universe.

41:29And we, you know, with our measly 10 ,000 readers a month or whatever it was, felt wholly inadequate, even though we knew we were doing it. Insignificant, and there's a little bit of gaslighting with those numbers because obviously those numbers are kind of fake and bots and vice really didn't have an audience. But anyways, that's an aside. But I totally connect with you on this idea of like there being a direct relationship with a reader. We feel it all the time at Taste. We're not the biggest food publication in the world, but we feel sometimes like we have this really wide audience, people who are in the minute 45 of this podcast, listening to it and reading our stuff.

42:02I know you have the same at Roads and Kingdoms. It's one of the things that we've gotten from the trips is a real sense of like, oh, well, these are who our readers are, like on a person-to-person basis. And having, you know, this small, hearty band of, you know, 400 people who've traveled with us over the years, and that has been sustaining enough. So it totally made me rethink what scale needs to be and the value of the audience that we have. So that's the answer for WhyPrint. We can make this thing that is beautiful that I think is always, should have been the right home for the kind of journalism that we were trying to do.

42:38But we don't have to do it in a Time magazine style where we have a, you know, three million subscription at$5 a year. We can actually ask people to pay what it costs to produce this thing. And we can, in that sense, also be fair and pay much better than we were able to as a digital publication to our contributors. And there's something about a magazine, which I know that you would recognize, or something about print in general, is it really does give you license to go out and demand style and swagger and verve in the storytelling. And it just feels like it raised all of our game, you know, from editorial to illustrations and photography.

43:19You're not getting the same on like an iPhone, like on a little square on an iPhone that you're getting from this beautifully printed publication. Yeah. So this one is an annual. It's 144 pages. We have a cover from Adele Rodriguez, who just did the New Yorker Mamdani cover, an amazing colleague of mine at Time, and has done this very enigmatic, kind of slightly apocalyptic cover for us. for us. Great pink. Yeah. And, you know, the essays, you know, range from a Nigerian examination of stockfish as a both an ingredient in a collective national trauma, but also talks about, you know, domestic abuse and like dreams and Lagos.

44:03And it's really beautifully done. We had Carl Tarot Greenfeld wrote about fleeing the fires and Palisades and and trying to start a new life in the era of Trump. And it's like, it's just kind of whimsical and smart and sad and something I never would have had the ambition to assign as a digital piece. But as a real tentpole of a print magazine, it feels... As a weight. Yeah. Weight to weight. It feels weight. Yeah. And we also got to be a little, you know, whimsical with like, we have a restaurant list, which we spent years kind of, you know, mocking in the broader space, but we just asked our favorite people what their favorite places are and came up with 50 that were super compelling.

44:49And you do it in print and all of a sudden it's not a listicle. It's like, it's a snapshot, a moment in amber in time. Yeah, I mean, it's a part of the grand tradition of book publishing and the guides and how it instantly goes out of date in some ways, but we love it for that. You know, it's like, honestly, like you pick up an old magazine with a list, you're just like, I love reading that. I want to know about the best restaurants in 2006. It is now a historical document. It's a historical document. There's a weight to it. Exactly. I mean, you guys share a lot of energy with Vittles in London.

45:20I feel like there's definitely a shared obsession with the journalistic practice of covering food and culture. Yeah. Well, we have a membership. So the other kind of context for it is there's a membership platform where it's basically the middle tier gets the print magazine. but we also have higher level. And then we also have a weekly kind of paid subscription for a digital publication. And Vittles, to my mind, is the best in the game. Like what they put out, they have a beautiful magazine. They've gone into print. But what they put out digitally is just, yeah, I've been reading them for a long time.

45:56And I want that energy for sure for what we're launching in January. There's room for many. That's why I love this era. And it's your original point. It doesn't have to be scale. You just need like your 10, 20 ,000 people. Let's go. Let's fill up a stadium. It could be Michigan Stadium. It could be 100 ,000 people. Let's do it. 107 ,000 people. A mere fraction of the taste listenership needs to become members. I looked at some numbers. We got some good listeners. This episode is brought to you by Hungry Root. If you listen to the show, you may know that I am a major fan of Hungry Root. I've been a paid, yes, paid subscriber of Hungry Root since 2018 and have had the company's founder, Ben McKean, sit in the studio for a conversation.

46:39The reason I love Hungry Root is simple. When I'm in a pinch for time to make an interesting and delicious lunch or dinner, Hungry Root always has my back. Hungry Root basically works like a personal nutrition coach and shopper by planning, recommending, and shopping everything for you. You start by taking a survey about what you like and don't like, simply using thumbs up and thumbs down icons, and they take care of the weekly grocery shopping, recommending healthy groceries tailored to your tastes, nutritional preferences, and health goals. When the box arrives, there are several simple recipes, like pesto with cheese ravioli, roasted salmon over arugula, and my favorite, the chicken shawarma bowl over grains and greens, which I make for dinner at least once a week.

47:23They also make this incredible plant-based almond chickpea cookie dough that I eat right out of the container. I love it so much. Hungry Root also has a huge selection of healthy groceries, everything from smoothies and quick lunches to kids' snacks and supplements. And unlike what you'd find in the grocery store, there's no junk ingredients in any of Hungry Root's food. They only source high-quality meat and seafood with no hormones or antibiotics. I love Hungry Root and recommend it all the time for my busy friends, and I hope you take this recommendation as well. And This Is Taste listeners can take advantage of this exclusive offer.

48:01For a limited time, get 40 % off your first box, plus get a free item in your box for life. Go to hungryroot.com slash thisistaste and use code thisistaste. That's hungryroot.com slash thisistaste, code thisistaste, to get 40 % off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. On This Is Taste, we ask guests about their discerning tastes. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid-fire, fast-and-furious taste check. Are you ready? I'm ready. The best fruit? Apples. Ooh, tell me where. Apples, anywhere where it gets so cold in the winter that you have to look for one good reason why we live in the Northeast.

48:42But I worked with Magnus Nielsen on 4 ,015 Days, his favicon book, got to hang out in his orchard. You ever want to fall in love with apples? just scroll back through his Instagram when he was in apple nerd phase and just talking about the different varietals and the care that goes into, you know, doing it with tasting apples on his orchard. Magnus nerd phases is a great way to put it. He's like, there's like movements of Magnus Nilsson. Great follow. Worst vegetable. It's beets. It's terrible. Beets are great, right? But I just had so many canned beets when I was a kid. Oh, yeah. You can't put that away.

49:17Like, there's still a distant, terrifying cousin of beets that you could eat now. And I just, I've never recovered. Another Portlandia sketch is the Beets 911 sketch. Another one, I'm just like throwing - Did I come from Seattle and just drop a bunch of Portlandia? I'm just throwing Portlandia references, but those are, they did food really well. What is your typical breakfast? I am actually not a breakfast person, but there are times usually related to maybe the drink in the night before where I need to get involved in that. And for me, it's been Ben Su, who runs a bagel shop called Between the Bagel on 30th Avenue, Astoria.

49:57He has this soul meat bagel, which is basically bulgogi in a bagel with gochujang mayo and egg. And it's absurd. And I tell him to go light on the meat and it's still, it makes Katz's look like a wafer. I mean, it's a sick, sick bagel. This bagel has been discussed on the show. Or perhaps with our producer Clayton, I think, is a fan of this bagel. I am. Yes. This is a big one. This is for when rarely I drink. And then the next morning, that's where I eat. Clayton, you and I, we're on a level here. Definitely. I remember him talking about it. I've never had this bagel. I'd love to meet Ben and hear about this bulgogi bagel.

50:40Sounds amazing. Ben's an incredible, you know, just the level of low level kind of ethnic warfare in that shop. You know, I'll come in in the morning and be like, how you doing, Ben? He's like, I'll be all right if these old Greek dudes would move on. And they're in the corner, you know, cussing him out about it. It's just, it feels so homey in Queens. It's Queens is like no other. The best dessert. The one that I am most into now is this Carlotta, which is like a, it's kind of like a nostalgia dessert in Mexico City. My daughter is going to college there. So I'm spending a lot of time we we had thanksgiving and edo nakatani who's uh this cook uh this chef from um fideo gordo brought a carlotta and all the mexicans at our thanksgiving just swooned because it's kind of like this this no bake icebox cake yeah it's like layers of cream and they used to have lady fingers in the old country but in mexico it's like uh galletas maria which are you know it's it's it's easy, cheap, nostalgia food.

51:42And it is, yeah, it was just gorgeous. And just seeing a room full of people just melt at the appearance of the Carlota, to me, yeah, reinforce it. It's number one right now. I love that. And it's having a moment in Mexico City, I think, with all the change there and everything that's happening. I think the Chilangos are very into this classic Carlota. That's cool. A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead? um there was a restaurant called suzuki shokudo uh under or shokudo under the tracks on 31st street in a story and it's run by this guy mr suzuki and it was you know when everybody thinks about japanese you know culture and cuisine it's like hyper modern hyper clean or something but there's actually a style of slightly dusty dingy izakayas that you know has this sort of air to it of, you know, a thousand katsus, you know.

52:38Oh, yeah. The village of Choco had a little bit of that vibe down in the East Village. Absolutely. And this was that. It was just the homiest, most delicious place. And Mr. Suzuki's retired. They shut it down. It's reopened now as Yanagi. And I think it's got some people who were from the Ancien Regime. But I am not ready to try it. I miss that place a lot. But I am going to give it a shot, and I think people should go check it out. But you want the original, and that's the one you want to bring back. I want him back. Yeah. I mean, you know, these guys are like, I mean, Chef Ali from Kebab Cafe is still going, but like you just, you see this is a brutal business actually running a restaurant and cooking.

53:23And, you know, the half-life of a cook is not long, and I wish these guys could stay forever, but they cannot. Give me a one restaurant or lunch spot near the Time offices that you recall. Oh. I'm just taking you back there. Near the Time offices. Yeah. Well, that was different because we had credit cards that Time magazine gave us. To take our colleagues out to lunch. Yeah. I remember Lisa Cullen and Amanda Ripley and Ta-Nehisi Coates and us were all writers at the same time. and we would go get like omakase. What was the name of that place? It's like on 51st. I think it's still there. I would just never pay that much money.

54:10I mean, full circle. Why did media collapse? Probably because I was out there getting omakase lunches with like other cub writers and driving them into the dirt. But in general, not a place where I really loved to hang out. It wasn't your scene. You were in the office and then out. Yes. Yeah. Big one for you. Favorite city outside America to visit for food. I kind of wince when I say it with you because it's like, I know this is hard, but please. Yeah, I reject the premise. I know a little bit. And you have actually every right to say that. But I will totally. You will take the challenge. I will totally take the challenge.

54:52And of course, I'm going to go right back to where I was a second ago in Mexico City because. Cool. Not only because it's now, you know, a part of my family story and I don't think I'm ever going to pry my firstborn back from the clutches of that amazing town. She's there for the long haul. But it's just this combination of street food so good and real that they have to, you know, wash off the sidewalk every night so that people don't slip in the fat of the suadero carts up to very, like, fine dining. And, you know, we just went to Lina, which is run by Mariana Villegas, who worked at Cosme and Puyol and opened her first restaurant.

55:33And it's just like so well done, so incredibly highly executed. And I know there's a lot of high end restaurants and it's a bit of a bubble right now. But but she's going to last the people who just like are just such masters of the craft. It's a really exciting time on a lot of levels for Mexico City, even with all the challenges of like over attention and so on. It still just blows my mind. And then you go out of the city an hour and a half and you're, you know, in fields of these prehistoric looking agaves, scraping pulque out with the, you know, an old gourd. And it just feels like you're in the maybe 12th century.

56:11Yeah. And it's that that combination is unbeatable. Love that response. Last one, Nathan, your favorite sandwich. Should we go back to Astoria? I mean, this is like the Astoria episode, and it makes my heart beat. Get ready, New York City. Mom Donnie's about to be your mayor, and you're going to have to hear a lot about Astoria. Right. Well, he's moving to Gracie. He is moving to Gracie, as he should. I support the move. Yeah. Mayor lives in the mayor's mansion. I mean, let's get real there. Except maybe not every mayor, but that's my point. Yes. at least he won't be living in Bimini or wherever.

56:46Yeah, right. So I don't know Mom Donnie's take on Sal, Chris, and Charlie's, but my take is very clear. It's an insane shop. It's the size of a shoebox.

57:00The sandwiches they make could feed an entire family. They have the bomb is their classic, which is my go-to, and I am a Libra, which means I actually have a very hard time choosing. So that sandwich is cool because it's all the meats and all the cheeses. The bomb. Yeah, the bomb. Salami, mortadella, whatever. Wow. American provolone. It's just every single thing they got there. All the vegetables, pepperoncini. You don't have to make a choice. What's the bread, though? Set up the bread choice. It's like a seeded semolina. It's probably about five feet long in my mind. It's giving muffalada a little bit.

57:39Just the size of it is what I'm thinking. Yeah, it's absurd. And it's, but you know going in that this is food for a couple days or a large, you know, Greek family, whatever it is. It's just a super classic sandwich. And I hope that they never change. Nathan Thornburg, what a great conversation. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. I'm so excited to have finally made it. Thank you, Matt.

58:11This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. logo designed by Ellie Skirzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.