714: Natasha Pickowicz Wants Everyone to Hot Pot

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0:31hot pot is this like you know human experiment where you see these personality types emerging at the table and you see how people bring themselves like into the meal and it's because it's so interactive and convivial and sort of disarming like you really get to see you know aspects of your friend's personality kind of like shining through and i think that's like Super beautiful. This is Taste. I'm your host, Eliza Barbanel. Natasha Pickowitz is a New York City-based chef and the author of More Than Cake, which was named a New York Times Best Cookbook of 2023, as well as a James Beard Foundation finalist.

1:09Natasha is also a hot pot obsessive who regularly hosts pop-ups of the communal East Asian dining experience in New York. Now she's sharing all of her family hot pot wisdom and the techniques she's adopted as a chef in a new book, Everyone Hot Pot. It's so fun to have Natasha back on the show to talk about the book and go deep on everything you need to host Hot Pot at home. Natasha Pickowitz, this is Tase. Thanks for coming back on the podcast. So happy to be here. I was trying to remember how many times you've been on the show before we started recording, and I think this might be the third or fourth time.

1:45But it's a very different era of book and cooking for you, which is so fun. Definitely. I mean, I guess you could see it as a new era, but I actually really do see it as existing on the same continuum. Like I see the two books that I have now as companion pieces, and I feel like they're related. But I think part of the campaign is going to be sort of massaging that explanation and telling people about how they are. Yeah, I mean, that was like the reporter in me that was trying to have like a catchy hook. But I think as someone who's been eating your food for a long time, like Hot Pot obviously is not a new love of yours.

2:21I've been to your pop-ups before. And in this book, you have dessert as a part of it. So I think you're totally right that they're like, you know, siblings or cousins or something like that. Totally. But I mean, it is extremely stressful. Like, I feel really anxious thinking about, are people going to stick along for this new ride? Like, are people going to be interested in this topic when previously they might only be into the cakes that I'm making or the bake sales that I'm producing? And so I think there is this like worry that I have of, gosh, are people going to be like, well, that's not for me.

2:55That's not why I'm into her. So I'm trying to like silence those voices. But, you know, you just it's it's hard. It's hard to. It's OK. We're in our comfy chairs. This can be our like therapy session where we can talk about all of the connective points between Hot Pot and Cake and their differences and everything in between. And I guess to start today, I'm wondering if you would just tell me about your relationship with Hot Pot, why you love it, why you wanted to make a book about it. Yeah, I mean, Hot Pot is this communal style of eating that I grew up as a kid in San Diego, having it at home with my parents.

3:33It was something that I saw as pretty much exclusively something you did in the domestic realm. Like it wasn't you didn't go out to a restaurant to do it. It was something that you did at your friend's house, with your parents, with family, perhaps for major holidays. Like we would do hot pot on Christmas Eve and then have like a Western meal on Christmas Day. Or we would use it to commemorate other holidays like the Lunar New Year, Mid-Autumn Harvest Festival, or just, you know, a more quotidian like everyday kind of dinner party. So it was something that I grew up cherishing and sort of learned my parents' style of doing it and then adapted it to fit my needs in my different eras over my life.

4:19So when I was broke in my 20s but wanted to entertain, like as a chef in my 30s, wanting to bring my own kind of flourishes into it. So to me, I was like, there is no book devoted to this topic in English. like I can't believe it doesn't exist it's all I want to talk about so it felt a bit of like a slam dunk for me to kind of dive into this world and just explore also what it means to do kind of like a single subject book and really instead of feeling constricted by the topic I felt like it opened up this vast world of all of these things that I wanted to touch upon yeah I really love that kind of perspective and way of approaching hot pot.

5:03And it's interesting to me because I had the kind of opposite experience where I grew up having hot pot occasionally like in restaurants. And I think a lot of people maybe who don't grow up like with the heritage or cultural background where you're having hot pot at home, you go to like Heidi Lau hot pot, you have the dancing noodle here in New York. There are a lot of great hot pot restaurants. And then it's only been in the past maybe like two years that I've started going to people's homes to have hot pot and I've never done hot pot myself at home. But it's been something that I've been really wanting to do because my version of this is that my family grew up making fondue at home.

5:37And I kind of feel like fondue is like the European answer to hot pot in terms of like you have this thing that you make and you're dipping your things in and eating together at home. Absolutely. Absolutely. And when I was doing research around the book and sort of, you know, what is this idea of kind of a bubbling liquid or broth in the center of the table where you're cooking small bites or morsels of food a la minute. I mean, this is something that pops up in so many cultures across the world, obviously not exclusive to China, to East Asia, to Asia, but like is something. And I think it really speaks to our need as people to come together with these meals that celebrate the act of dining with other people and create almost like an interactive game out of it and can also represent like everything from the most frugal like economical approach to a meal to something more ostentatious and kind of you know over the top and luxury so I think to me like it really speaks to where everyone is with whatever their experience is it kind of meets them where they are.

6:49And I wanted to, you know, share about how you could do that right at home instead of going out to do it. Yeah. Okay. So I want to get into this. And I guess maybe, especially for a listener who maybe has never had hot pot before, what would you say are like the essential components of a hot pot meal? Yeah. So I think the most important thing is that you need some kind of device to keep liquid at kind of a low simmer. And what I mean by that is, You know, perhaps it's like an instant pot that you're plugging into the wall that's sort of maintaining a constant temperature. But I think what's more common is, you know, some kind of independent cooking device that you put the pot right on top.

7:32So maybe it's an electric induction burner, you know, kind of like a hot plate. Maybe it's a small camping stove that takes cans of gas like butane. There are all different approaches to do it. I really like the kind of camping stove because there's no wires to trip over. You can just like kind of plunk it right down in the center of your table. The gas gets really hot. You can get things at a rolling boil really rapidly. So I would say like that's kind of the one piece of equipment. That's the one piece that I would say is essential. But that being said, like there's so many ways to go. You can keep using the stove in other contexts.

8:12You can pick one up at Home Depot for$17. dollars. You know, it's to me, I bring it outside. You can take it camping. So I think as long as you have that, you can probably pull together everything you need with what you have around the house already, like whether it's a Dutch oven, a soup pot, or something more specifically engineered for the hot pot table, like this kind of classically dual chambered kind of shaped like a yin-yang sign. So to kind of maximize your broth variation. Yeah. And that's the like equipment side of it. But the meal side of it, at least to my understanding, is there's kind of three components, right?

8:49There's the soup-based broth, there's the things you dip in it, and then there's the sauce that you dip the things that you cooked into. Exactly. Because I think, and this is something that I keep coming back to in my philosophy as a chef, which is building layers of flavor. Like this is something that I think a lot about with pastry, whether I'm making a layer cake or composing a plated dessert. But hot pot is all about building layers of flavor because essentially what you're doing is you're poaching or boiling small pieces of food, which is kind of a lean cooking technique. So you really want to reintroduce richness by kind of swiping it through a really flavorful dipping sauce.

9:28So and using a broth instead of just starting with water, both approaches are completely acceptable. It's also another way to kind of infuse that bite with additional great flavor. So yeah, I like to have kind of a suite of, you know, flavorful, intense broths, sometimes complimentary in a contrasting way. Like perhaps you have a spicy broth and then maybe there's like a more cooling one that, you know, has like different notes. And then as far as like the bites that, you know, kind of engage with the broth, I mean, this is the beauty. It can be anything you want. You're a mushroom freak. You can have five kinds of mushrooms.

10:07Like, you're vegan. Like, let's play up all the different ways tofu and soy can materialize on the table. You know, meat lovers, like you see this at hot pot restaurants that are all you can eat. You see these, like, broke college students just going back for the sliced meat, you know, the lamb, the pork, the beef, the chicken, like, the offal. And so I think what's great about that is you can really kind of—it's modular meal inherently, so you can play around with what you like. Like I love fresh leafy greens, tons of herbs. I love having like noodles. I love seafood, shellfish, you know, so you can kind of adjust it to your whims, which I think is really great.

10:47Yeah, I totally agree. And you were speaking a little bit about how you grew up kind of having your parents' style of hot pot and that you've been kind of adapting your own style. Is there a couple differences, you would say, between like those two styles? Obviously, there's not a wrong way to hot pot, but what is like the Natasha Pickowitz way? Definitely. It's so funny because I will go home and I'll organize the hot pot meal for my parents, although they really like being the ones to be in charge and having a say in what happens. But sometimes I'll like do it for them and they'll be like, whoa, you have so much happening.

11:20Like, I'm like definitely putting in more effort than they might. You know, like I want to make the tsung yobing, like the scallion pancake from scratch because that's the kind of person I am. And I know that there are readers who are going to pick up the book and also want to do that. But then there are going to be people like my mom who's like, no, I'm just going to buy them frozen at the store and pan fry them on the stove. So like I bring in more probably from scratch approach to hot pot. And I think my parents, you know, my mom is from Beijing and like that northern style, you know, I think she knows her style, which it is kind of leaner.

12:00Like there might be, you know, she grew up doing mutton, you know, kind of old sheep. But, you know, now she gravitates towards thinly sliced lamb and napa cabbage. And those are sort of like the, you know, the two ends of like that's the core of the meal for her. And she starts with just water. And what I think is really incredible about that approach is that the soup that you drink from the hot pot is actually like a communal act that everyone participates in, in the act of having hot pot. So it is kind of this like beautiful story that happens while you're having hot pot is that you are the act of putting in, you know, the coin of carrot, a bit of like goji berry, some scallions.

12:50You're actually creating a soup together. And I think that's kind of profound. And that's what she would do because like that's how she did it. And so I wanted to like acknowledge that approach too in the book, even though I'm kind of extra and I'm always like, well, I need to have this broth and this one. Yeah. Yeah. So the result of the cooking experience is by the end of the meal, after all of the meat, all of the veggies, all of the noodles have been cooked in that water or that broth, it is like the soup you kind of drink is the final touch. Exactly. And that sort of is the coda to the meal.

13:21It signals that the hot pot feast is over. And so she would take a soup ladle and she would give everyone a bit of broth right into their individual kind of bowl at the table, which has sort of the dregs of the dipping sauce at the bottom. And she really likes this kind of nutty white sesame paste dipping sauce. So what happens when you ladle this super flavorful aromatic broth into the dregs of the sauce bowls, you get this like incredibly rich, savory, sesame, seedy kind of cloudy soup. And it's one of the most delicious things in the world. And I think that when everyone drinks that broth, they feel so nourished.

14:00But then you also kind of are like amazed, like we made this thing together. And I think that taps into that, like, kind of group spirit that is at the heart of Hot Pot of kind of, like, doing it all together and being as one. Yeah. I was telling you off mic before that I just introduced my girlfriend's dad, who's Taiwanese, and my parents, who are, like, Jews from L.A., over Thanksgiving. And the first meal we did together was Hot Pot. And I think it was a really, like, nice communal activity choice for us. Absolutely. I mean, it's so disarming. I think there's and there's a reason why I loved it as a kid because you know I could kind of make a bit of a mess.

14:38There's splatter. It's inevitable. You kind of have to like lean into the mess. The like you know drops of broth and the sauce everywhere. And there's also because there's something interactive about it. You're kind of like jostling elbows and you're sort of getting close and comfy. And you're squeezing as many people as you can around your dining room table. And there's something like intimate, but also like there's something unpretentious about it too. And so it's a really great way to bring people together who might not have met before or maybe there's like something emotional at stake like, oh, our parents are meeting, you know.

15:13And I think like the Western style dining is much more rigid and contained. Like you're having meals that are coursed out. Like you have this one plate that's just for you put down in front of you. And I mean, obviously, you know, this kind of family style of eating is so trendy and really ubiquitous in restaurant and at-home dining culture now. But like that wasn't always true. And I think that this is what Chinese banquet dining has always done really well is these kind of big platters of food that get shared. And like that's – there's something really like wonderful about that, I think. Totally.

15:51I want to get into the broths that you have in this book because when I have done hot pot at home at my friends' houses, often people use like a pre-made, pre-mixed broth. You can buy it and then just kind of add water to it, and that's the base. But you have some really like delicious and kind of cool-sounding broths. Can you maybe walk me through a few of them and how they kind of exist together? Totally. I mean, and those broth packs, like I've never kind of in the similar way that they have like the, you know, instant, you know, broth starters for instant noodles or something like that. Or like bouillon powder.

16:24Yeah, but I think when you're looking at specifically those hot pot style broth starters, you might see them like literally bricks of fat and there might be like spices or dried leaves or chili peppers sort of suspended in this like brick kind of. And maybe the brick is beef tallow or maybe it's, you know, some kind of like hydrogenated like vegetable, you know, spread like a, you know, like a vegetable oil or something like that. But I think as a chef, I just like having that control over what goes in my broth. And if you read those ingredient lists, I'm like, well, I have, you know, bay leaves and fennel seed and Sichuan peppercorns and, you know, star anise.

17:09And I have, you know, all the different things that go into that. So I'm always going to choose the path of wanting to make broth because I think the act of making it is extremely meditative and wonderful and fills my apartment with great smells. So, yeah, I wanted to share like a range of broths that could work at the hot pot table and also provide lots of extra tips for how to continue to customize it or tweak it or make it your own. So I have a nod to kind of the Sichuan like Chongqing style of hop-hop broth, which, you know, has a basis of meat bones like beef or pork bones fried in oil. There's tons of, you know, that mala like mouth tingling flavor that's very kind of characteristic to that region where you have the kind of Sichuan peppercorn and Sichuan chili.

18:02And that kind of like taints the whole broth, this like brilliant crimson color. I think a lot of people associate that with hot pot. But that's just one region of China. And so I wanted to also have like, you know, I wanted to place to acknowledge traditional Chinese medicine. So there's a lot of broths there that have, you know, the dried Chinese red date, a jujube, goji berries, ginseng root. All of these things like create incredible flavor and nuance but are also like really good for us and feels really good to sip on those broths. So my idea was sort of like you might see two broths in there that pair real well together, and you can augment them if you wish, but you can kind of mix and match.

18:47Yeah, I really – I mean, they all sound great, but I thought the charred tomato lemongrass broth was cool because I do think a tomato broth is pretty standard at a lot of the hot pot restaurants. But that kind of like charred lemongrass element seemed kind of special. And also the tea one, I don't think I've ever had like a hot pot broth that has tea with goji berries and shiitake, all these kind of like other herbs together. But it sounded really good to me. Oh, my gosh. It's so good. And I also like this idea of being able to, you know, similar to how you might have like a dashi mix in a teabag in your cupboard.

19:20You might also have this like teabag that has all of these different aromatics and dried mushrooms and dried tea in there. So you can just – it's as simple as boiling water and pouring it over and you have like this broth ready in a matter of moments. But, yeah, I wanted to kind of acknowledge like different traditions in Chinese and Japanese ways of eating at home where you might revive a bit of leftover rice with some hot green tea or – You know, and that it's something that's not just consumed as a beverage, but also enjoyed like in, you know, with noodles or rice or like kind of like a meal.

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22:37Go to HungryRoot.com slash thisistaste and use code thisistaste. That's HungryRoot.com slash thisistaste, code thisistaste, to get 40 % off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. Okay, so if broth is the first step, I'm curious how much you tailor the ingredients and things that you dip in it based on the broth, or if they're just kind of like, I think they're things I always want to eat at hot pot. And I don't really think about how they match with the broth even. Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think that your instincts are right. Like, it kind of all is great. But, you know, I – like, the charred tomato and lemongrass broth, for example, like, has great acidity, has lots of brightness.

23:22I also suggest if you want to make it even richer, you could kind of stir some coconut milk in, which is something I love to do. But that's, like, a really great one for – you know, I think about how hot pot is a meal that truly can be enjoyed throughout the world. year. And I will be promoting this book year round because I think a lot of people associate hot pot with kind of the colder winter season, like as they do with soup. But you go anywhere in Asia and you're like, oh, soup is just something that's enjoyed year round. In fact, is used as a mechanism for staying cool. So I think I'm hoping to kind of bring some of that energy into stateside with what hot pot can be.

24:03And so I think about like the charred tomato broth and it feels so summery to me. And so I'm like, that's a great broth that you could have outside with like a vegetable heavy menu or perhaps something like tofu, which is more mild in flavor, but really kind of gets infused with that great like acidic broth. And, you know, and I think about like something like that spicy Sichuan style beef broth would be great. Like, again, you're kind of pairing like with like too. So, you know, richer things like meat, seafood can kind of handle those spicier, like, kind of richer broths as well. Yeah, I really like the idea of an outdoor hot pot kind of summer meal.

24:44Also because the, you know, obviously you have this boiling broth, so that might be a little warming, but you're not really drinking the broth until the end. And most of it is kind of the dipping. And like, I don't really feel like I would be too hot for that, you know? No, definitely not. I mean, I like, I'm very lucky I have a little backyard in my apartment in Brooklyn and just having the hot pot sort of alfresco was a revelation. It was a revelation. You're like, the birds are chirping. The wind is like blowing through my hair. I think hot pot is really at its heart such a sensorial meal. You know, you're feeling like the kind of steam, you know, fogging up the windows, the smells that are coming off the broth, the visual like splendor of the meal before you, all the ingredients.

25:27And you add in the outdoors to that. And I'm like, well, this is just living, you know, it's the best. Totally. And I think the last kind of component of the meal is the sauce you were talking a little bit about before. How much do you dial that sauce in as a balancing act with everything else? I mean, I like to have, again, just as I might have a duet of broths, I also like to kind of have a pairing of sauces. So I'll do like a really rich, you know, a really rich, savory kind of full-bodied sauce, like the white sesame dipping sauce, which, you know, it has the texture of kind of like, I think in the book I'm like, look for, you know, it's like a whipped milkshake, like a really frothy, thick kind of mouth-coating sauce.

26:12And then maybe there's like a more punchy, thinner, runnier sauce. So maybe it's just like black – you know, my mom likes black vinegar or apple cider vinegar with like a little bit of soy. And then maybe there are fresh herbs in it. And again, it's something you see in different regions. Like what I also really love to do, and I have kind of a beautiful spread in the book around this, is the DIY sauce bar. So just like pull out all of your condiments in your fridge, your toasted sesame oil, your different soys, your different, you know, hot soybean paste, like your chili crisps, your, you know, your English marmalades, like your Italian Calabrian chili.