723: “Restaurant Lists Piss Me Off,” and the Future of Food Television with Ben Liebmann

15:38Troy Chatterton:he's biking everywhere come on let's get real let's be honest

15:41Ben Liebmann:he's walking and biking but you know if it was about those things Matt there were far easier things that we could have done we would have opened Noma in 20 countries around the world we would have done deals with hotels we would have done the pots and pans by the way things that I did with MasterChef way back in the day. So again, this ain't a judgment call. It's about what's right for each individual, each restaurant, you know, getting to the heart of what's at its purpose, its values, et cetera. But if it was about the money, we could have done things very different.

16:12Troy Chatterton:The licensing of the brand Noma is a billion dollar business. There's no doubt. It's been that brand equity of Noma is multiples billion.

16:21Ben Liebmann:But you know, he and I talked about it from very early on. And, you know, the value of the brand is enormous, but it is inelastic. Every brand is inelastic. If you stretch it too far, at some point it doesn't spring back. And he has been very singular in understanding his own personal, but as Noma. And in many ways, they are one and the same. In understanding, again, those values and that purpose of what his brand represents and how best to build it with constraints to ensure that it's still here in 20 years time.

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18:50Troy Chatterton:That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com. Wayfair. Every style, every home. This is a segue to lead into news yesterday. it was announced that the LA pop-up is happening. Obviously, he's been doing really fun things on social, just like showing the development and the research and just like becoming part of the community. I think Renee's done a great job. The$1 ,500 price tag, and to be clear, that is all in. That includes gratuity and a beverage pairing, but still a$1 ,500 meal is exorbitant by all means. How do you, Ben, square that? And then for those in the back of their head think that this is just something that Rene's getting rich on, et cetera, et cetera.

19:36Troy Chatterton:I know that that is in the ether. How do you respond to that?

19:40Ben Liebmann:Again, having been on the inside, I know what the motivation is behind it. And again, if it was driven by pure financials, we would have gone to very different places. Having been part of the Australian pop-up, the Mexico Tulum pop-up, the first pop-up in Kyoto, I know what motivates these things. I know what drives them. And what we were talking about a second ago is I think people often dismiss or forget about intent. It's very hard for me to dismiss some of the questions, some of the concerns that people have about that price point. I think there is probably nothing that I could say that would address the opinions, and there will always be opinions when it comes to NOMA, right, wrong, for many perception is reality.

20:30Ben Liebmann:But I think, you know, and this isn't a comment about that particular question. I think just generally in media in 2026, when you look at the news cycle and how social media has become so intertwined with that, we forget about intent. Nobody asks about intent. Nobody asks what was behind that decision or, you know, what they may have said X, but I know who that person is, or maybe I don't know who that person is. So rather than just leap to the conclusion of they said X, therefore let's cancel. Maybe we should ask those questions, maybe intent, which was for something I, or for a long time, I think something that we all place some sort of credence around.

21:10Ben Liebmann:I think maybe it's time to think about intent again. So I'm excited for him. I know what he and the team are going to create will be extraordinary. I know again, despite criticism, and the impact that it will have in that community. I know what it will do in terms of shining a spotlight on that city, its communities, but, you know.

21:29Troy Chatterton:I think it's also an international audience. That's what I think we need to be clear about. I think that we know LA, the listeners of the show have been there perhaps, and we talk about it a lot on the show. It's a great city. But with Noma, it's a global brand. It is. And it's getting people from Australia, from Europe, from Asia to come to Los Angeles, of all places. They might not even go there.

21:49Ben Liebmann:They come to New York or perhaps Vegas or wherever. I think when we did the pop-up in Australia and one of our partners in that was Tourism Australia, it was the government. I think 60 % of the people who came to that were not from Australia. Now, you know, when you look at the raw numbers of the people that you can serve at an experience like that, okay, they're not vast numbers. But what it does is it starts a conversation about a place. Australia's motivation at that time was how do we put, you know, we don't have Michelin, we don't have 50 Best, although they did host 50 Best the following year, but how do we put our chefs and our culture and our cuisine into the conversation when, you know, one of the factors that will always work against us is we're a long way away.

22:31Ben Liebmann:So there will be a ripple effect that comes from this pop-up that may not be seen today and may not be seen in 10 weeks time, but will be seen for a period afterwards. Yeah, we'll see what opens in its wake.

22:43Troy Chatterton:You know, what kind of restaurants and who moves to Los Angeles. And who stays from the staff.

22:49Ben Liebmann:And that's happened in the past too.

22:51Troy Chatterton:It has. You mentioned lists. And I think you're really qualified to talk about this topic that, you know, you see it everywhere. Discussed on podcasts. You see it in group chats privately. Everyone has a thought about lists, meaning Michelin stars, world's 50 best etc etc etc Noma's built on world's 50 you cannot deny that fact it's challenging for me personally that list it feels very out of touch with food globally so you're in a spot here Noma's brand I know you're not there now so we should have said that from the jump but you still advise so you're part of the team how do you square this list making culture that we're in when it comes to fine dining at this highest level of dining.

23:39Ben Liebmann:I'm done with it. Thank you. And I think there is an opportunity, and I do spend a lot of time thinking about it, about how do you create something that can, I won't be so arrogant as to say replace, but that can stand alongside it, something that can be more inclusive, more celebratory of all cuisines at every level. And I think one of the other things that, And I realize I've gone 10 minutes without swearing and I'm in Australia. But one of the things that really pisses me off about those lists is it pits chefs and restaurants against one another at a time when that's the last thing that they need.

24:19Ben Liebmann:And not to make it about, you know, Sydney and Australia, but, you know, I think we were talking about it online. And we had quite a lot of, you know, conversation in our industry late last year because it came out that the Australian government had chosen not to invest in Michelin and not to bring it down. And it was interesting to see some divide within the industry. There was a certain sector of it that said this will be good for the industry. Yeah. I think there's some code there of this will be good for us and a particular type of restaurant. And we can talk about that. But, you know, I look at it and think at a time, I mean, at a general climate that we live in today, at a time when the industry is struggling everywhere.

25:06Ben Liebmann:So the same challenges that restaurateurs and chefs are facing in New York and LA are being faced in Sydney and Melbourne and London. That is universal and across the world. So I'll start from that place. If you acknowledge that that industry needs support, and it does, and that governments can play a role in supporting that industry. The Australian government was being asked for$40 million over five years. Should the Australian government put $40 million into the hospitality industry? Absolutely. In 2026, should it do that by funding a list? No, it shouldn't. I mean, on pure risk and reward, if they gave you and I$40 million and you think about how tourists and locals are discovering and sharing food right now, it's not that list.

25:54Ben Liebmann:It's media, it's content, it's on social, it's on digital, it's on television. Imagine the impact you could have with that amount of money. Then there's the flow on effect of, And you and I see this and there are some terrible stories of chefs who have faced mental health and taken their lives as a result of the pressure of this list and potentially losing that. Is that the responsible thing to do? Yeah. So, I mean, is there a need for a platform or platforms that elevate and celebrate chefs and restaurants? Absolutely there is. Are these two lists the one? No.

26:33Troy Chatterton:No, and I think you're right. You can't replace. You need to stand alongside. And I hear stories, pitting against is so well said because I hear stories, someone who was in the room in Vegas and like a chef had gotten somewhere in the 40s and like they were like sulking around. That should not be the response to being one of the 50 best restaurants in the world. Like insanity to me, I'm not blaming that person because clearly they had a higher expectation. Yes. How do you build something to stand alongside? Besha Rodell was on and she was talking about like we need to just have a global list that's editorially driven and funded.

27:09Troy Chatterton:And I think from the people in our world, from the journalism side, I think that's a great way to start.

27:15Ben Liebmann:But also it takes a lot of money. It does. And that's where I think, you know, the pragmatist to me says the commercial world, the brand world will need to play some part in that. That creates a dynamic too of that tension between what's driving this. Is it the commercial endeavor? Is it the creative endeavor? But I don't know. I just don't think we need lists in this day and age across the board. I don't think you need to celebrate. I mean, I think too often, a couple of weeks ago, somebody wrote this piece, which was a celebration of Kate Bush at the expense of Taylor Swift, right? And it was making a comparison around this one is art, this one is pop, this one is about artistic endeavor and creativity, this one is about filling stadiums and selling bracelets.

28:06Ben Liebmann:My response to that, and this is a very credible journalist, was do we have to pick sides? Can't we celebrate one on its own? Do we have to do that at the expense of tearing somebody down? And, you know, this isn't about does Taylor Swift have agency or, you know, does she not have the ability to defend herself? But I think it taps into something that is unfortunately increasingly part of our culture, which is lift and tear, lift and tear. And I'm kind of done with that.

28:36Troy Chatterton:Yeah.

28:37Ben Liebmann:Across the board. I just don't think we need that.

28:39Troy Chatterton:We don't need math. No. Like associated with restaurants. Like we don't need numbers. Like analytics. I mean, we are an analytics culture. or anyone who watches sports, like we're driven by analytics or follows the stock market or invest. It's like we need these numbers associated with restaurants, but it's unfair.

28:59Ben Liebmann:I also just think, and this is, I'm not wanting to open a can of worms. We are. With journalists and food writers as well, because I know there is a responsibility for reviewers to speak the truth to their experience to help inform their readers. Yeah. Um, but do we need the negativity? You know, when I was growing up, there was a film, a film reviewer called Peter Thompson. Um, and he was on the, a morning show on the national broadcaster. And if he, if he liked something, he reviewed it. If he didn't, he didn't review it. And the fact that the review didn't come was a signal to, it didn't meet my standards, but I'm not going to use the oxygen to bring something down.

29:45Ben Liebmann:I'm going to use the oxygen to celebrate and lift something.

29:49Troy Chatterton:Silence is deafening sometimes.

29:51Ben Liebmann:It is. It really is. It really is. And look, I don't know if this is me in my old age. I don't know if this is me after seven years in Denmark and the influence of Scandi socialism, but I don't know. I think a bit of positivity in the world, something that's a bit more celebratory rather than competitive is really important. Yeah. But we're still going to come back to it and we want numbers. Of course we will. I get it. And that's why I said, you know, there probably is nothing that takes the place of 50 Best or Michelin. But I think there is something that can stand alongside it. Yeah. I mean, take a look at Top Shore.

30:21Troy Chatterton:Yeah.

30:22Ben Liebmann:That is, again, I'm not going to make a comment on is it right, is it wrong. But there's something really quite nice of chefs talking about the places that they enjoy. I'm more likely to look to that than I would be one of those lists.

30:36Troy Chatterton:Yeah. I mean, our top job is Rob Martinez in my eyes. and he's a similar guy. And I think when social video can become more powerful than television and these creators are showing restaurants in their true light and the way the algorithms work these days, we need to maybe covet those moments when a restaurant is featured on Top Jaw or Rob Martinez and not 47 on a list. segue time let's let's talk about uh the actual like media and television food because i think you're super well qualified to to discuss these topics um we'll talk about omnivore season two but i want to i want to start like broadly speaking uh where are we at right now uh 2026 i know you know the buying side a bit you know the selling side because you're you're in that now in production but i i'm i'm still seeing a lot of reality and i also see online i still to this day see a lot of like where's the stand and stir yeah where is the food network from 2006 does the buy side understand this and even care about this like maybe this like swelling desire

31:46Ben Liebmann:for like cooking tv shows i think it does i think the dynamics of media in 2026 make it challenging a couple of things are in play across the board and this has been happening for decades and it's happened in many industries is that dumbbell effect for those who aren't watching it's me squeezing my fist as if I'm holding a dumbbell and what that's meant to imply is the middle is being squeezed and so you have whether it's in film or television it's either really cheap or it's really expensive it is far better to roll the dice and even this is becoming harder. I'll roll the dice on a$200 million Marvel film because if it works, the payoff is$2 billion in returns.

32:32Ben Liebmann:Albeit those returns are getting more challenging. Or I'm going to roll the dice on a$10 million film because if the payoff is$50, $60 million, that's a great return. But if it doesn't work, I only lost$10 million. And to some degree that dynamic is playing out. I mean, it's playing out in dining, but it's playing out in food television. When I was in the kind of throes of food television at Fremantle and Shine, I mean, really you could divide the genre around three subsets. You had the stand and stir kind of chop and chat. You had the follow along, food travel, and then you had competition. The kind of stand and stir, let me show you how, has been replaced by that device pointing to his phone.

33:14Ben Liebmann:You know, that genre is now TikTok. It's now YouTube. It's now Instagram. There will always be programming on places like Food Network, although let's see what happens.

33:26Troy Chatterton:OTT, all those channels.

33:28Ben Liebmann:And let's see what happens with the Food Network once certain transactions go through. But there will always be a place for it. But that's not coming back. Not to the way that it once was. And even if those networks, and there are some really great people at those platforms, even if they want them, it is getting harder to justify the return on that when the audience that is looking for it is more likely to find a 90 second video, maybe click through for the recipe, or they're following one of their favorite food creators and influencers. Thinking about kind of food and travel, you know, back in the day, we followed people like Tony's, They showed us the world through food.

34:07Ben Liebmann:Zimmern, yeah. Wonderful. And thank God that there is still a generation that continues to have that platform. But by and large, that's gone. Yeah. And it's gone because right or wrong, the economics don't stack up. And there is a perception, right or wrong, within many of those buyers, that it is easier to find a celebrity that has a passion for food than a chef who is great talent. Right.

34:33Troy Chatterton:And can actually use or show real instincts for cuisine versus a mid-level TV star doing their bread show.

34:42Ben Liebmann:But the thing is, though, if you think about, you know, a very cluttered media environment where we are being signaled out from, you know, audio with podcasts, the remains of the day with print and digital and television and social and, you know, kind of streaming and fast or wherever. How do you cut through that? Well, increasingly it's noise. And in film and TV, that's either IP.

35:08Troy Chatterton:Yeah.

35:09Ben Liebmann:So let's take something that's known and let's port it across to another genre. So let's take the book and make a film. Let's take the film that was made 20 years ago and dig it back up and do it again. Because any visibility, any awareness gives you a head start than starting from scratch. It's the same thing when it comes to food television. I can take that actor that has higher awareness with a greater audience. I can stick their name on the side of the bus, both figuratively and literally, literally. And I've probably got a better chance of getting an audience. So that whole genre is going other than, and this is not, I love what they've done.

35:49Ben Liebmann:Tucci, Longoria, Rosenthal. That's who we follow along now. We're not seeing as many opportunities for chefs and those from within the industry to, to kind of show us the world or provide a place for others to tell their story.

36:03Troy Chatterton:Ben, it just feels unimaginative. I just hate hearing I push back so hard on that mentality from TV executives because I think these shows actually don't rate well. I feel like I'm not going to single out those three you mentioned. Phil's show is on Netflix. It's a different one than the broadcast because Phil's show, he's still in our stadium. So the dude is doing well. People watch the show. But the ones on CNN, like no one's watching the shows. I'm sorry. Like it's just not happening. Like look at the culture. It's not being talked about. No, it's not.

36:28Ben Liebmann:Which then leaves you with competition shows.

36:32Troy Chatterton:Great build up. You did your, your, your lecturer.

36:35Ben Liebmann:And, and that's where we're at. And that's because in many ways, look, as I said, I spent seven years working on Masterchef outside of the U S it is a very different show. You know, you name a chef and they were, I mean, Tony was on Masterchef as a guest. Farhan's been on Masterchef. Thomas has been on Masterchef. Renee was, that's how he and I met. Top Chef is a great show for, for what it is. but they're not shows about food. They're competition. It's shows about tension and drama. It just happens to be set in a kitchen. The stark reality there, and I'm trying not to take you on a dark journey here, Matt, is that even those shows do not burn as bright or burn as long as they once did.

37:22Ben Liebmann:And so the question is what's next? And Chef's Table, what David and what Brian did, was extraordinary. i'd love to say in our small part we built on that you know i know when we were all together last year we stand on the shoulders of what doesn't happen without without a hundred percent chef's table and i hope that in some way irrespective of where we go to with season two or otherwise yeah is that somebody saw that show and says i can think of uh stories that need to be told now it may not be on television it might be on digital i'm working on a couple of shows that are about people and places within food that are going to be difficult for traditional broadcasters or streamers to fund.

38:06Ben Liebmann:I just don't imagine they will. One is a public broadcaster show through and through, a lot of heart, a lot of purpose about chefs going into prisons to teach young detainees how to cook, because if you can cook, then you've got a chance to look after yourself, get a trade. And one that, you know, developing with an impact agency out of Los Angeles, which is about chefs doing good outside of their community. Sorry, outside of their restaurants. These are stories that should be told. These are stories that people are passionate about, but where do you put them in 2026? It's more likely going to be on YouTube or a public broadcaster perhaps.

38:44Ben Liebmann:And if it's on YouTube, a brand may need to play a role. And we all see about brands as storytellers, but brands are perhaps the hope to start providing a place for these stories and this great community to be seen again.

39:00Troy Chatterton:Which is why the PBS model is so great. Thank God for public broadcasting. Thank God for public broadcasting supported and for our little world of food. That's why food has proliferated so much on PBS is because of the model of bringing a brand, possibly having a 501c3 status for that. that uh that funding so allowing those incentives for the brands to to pay for these productions for this important work and and not being a fully commercial endeavor and i think you know

39:30Ben Liebmann:having as i say worked in the music industry i mean when i was in the music industry if a band or an artist worked with a brand they were a sellout yeah now if a artist doesn't work with a brand they're not going on tour the video is probably not being made yeah and so when i talked to many of the chefs that I work with or just friends within the industry, you know, the comment that I would make is working with a brand is not selling out. Working with the wrong brand is selling out. So it's around finding those brands that share your values and purpose and want to help you realize what you want to realize.

40:01Ben Liebmann:And some of that will be in the storytelling side.

40:04Troy Chatterton:Who are you liking right now on the creator side? Like who are you always watching on TikTok or Instagram Reels or even, you know, on the podcast side? Mm-hmm.

40:14Ben Liebmann:I mean, it's really interesting. My media diet these days is 80 % podcasts.

40:21Troy Chatterton:Yeah, yeah.

40:22Ben Liebmann:My Spotify wrapped. I will not get into which artists. They said I was 23. Oh, I love that. My daughter said I have the musical taste of a Gen Z girl that's had her heart broken. I'll take that for the moment.

40:37Troy Chatterton:Long drives in the car.

40:38Ben Liebmann:There we go, mate. But my music listening has plummeted and it's been replaced by podcasts. I mean, aside from present company, and I know, you know, I say that very genuinely, there aren't great food podcasts outside of the US. And I'm hoping that we see more and more of those as the medium, you know, moves into its maturer phase. Because again, the passion is there and it's a new way to tell stories. On the kind of business side, Kristen Hawley at Expedite. Emily, when she does food, I know Feed Me isn't exclusively food, but when she does, I think it's fantastic. I'm looking forward to seeing what the caper guys are doing.

41:17Ben Liebmann:You know, I think it's just a really interesting time to be able to look and immerse yourself in the industry from whatever side it is, if it's the creative side, if it's the food side. I'm fortunate enough to work with a creative guy called Andy Herndon, Andy Cooks. I love what he's doing. I love how he's also trying to move from short form to long form. And I think start to to look at programming that, you know, again, 10 years ago would have been on television isn't anymore. I mean, it's interesting. I had, I had coffee with the team of a very prominent U S create food creator over the weekend and they all want television shows.

41:56Troy Chatterton:I know.

41:57Ben Liebmann:And my, my question is always why? And the response is usually one of two things. It's either my mom watches television or there is an audience that doesn't yet reach or I don't reach via YouTube and Instagram and TikTok. And television can help me reach those people and maybe pull them back to a channel that I own and to build on it.

42:24Troy Chatterton:It's a theory, but I mean, the ratings for broadcast cable television is tiny. and, you know, Netflix, you're like one in a million. There's a lot of food shows that don't hit, you know.

42:36Ben Liebmann:I mean, the platforms still think that if they work with creators, that the creators will bring their audience. That is not happening. It doesn't happen. It hasn't happened and nobody has proven that it is made.

42:45Troy Chatterton:Talk about a sellout move.

42:46Ben Liebmann:Like a lot of people don't follow the creators to Netflix. For that very reason. I think that, as I say, is there a world where they're bringing an audience that haven't yet discovered them on social and this is maybe just clever marketing for their primary channel? I can see that. I'll be curious to see whether it realizes, but I can see the argument.

43:05Troy Chatterton:I think broadcast is just still what it is. It's Hollywood. And I think if you're a successful creator and have the 1M next to your name, it's like, I want to be on TV. I want to be on Peacock. I get it. Believe me, I get it. But it's not a great business move. It's not.

43:21Ben Liebmann:It's like focused on the digital channels. it has to be part of the foundation like the foundation of your business, your enterprise, your ambitions you know it can't be the thing it used to be if you got that TV deal, that was it you were on the way

43:36Troy Chatterton:let's talk about Omnivore season 2 I've championed the show I've watched every episode a couple twice I think I watched Tuna twice and like I love the show it's super unique it's a written show, it's a narrated show So first question is where are you at with season two? Second off is, and we're really getting in the weeds about television, but I love it. How does Apple judge the success of Omnivore? In ways that we don't see.

44:05Ben Liebmann:You don't see it? No. I know they, like every other platform, are looking at start rate, finish rate, binge rate, you know, all of those total minutes viewed, total audience viewed. but it is a black box that the creative community rarely sees. Some of those platforms are getting a little better. They're sharing some of it. Then it's not full transparency, but it's partial transparency. Correct.

44:33Troy Chatterton:Netflix in particular does it.

44:34Ben Liebmann:Correct. You know, they release their monthly or their quarterly views and things like that. So I'm hoping that evolves. I mean, if you really want to get into the weeds of the business, I think as increasingly consumers are opting for the ad-funded tiers, well, that means that advertisers need to see the ROI on their spend.

44:58Troy Chatterton:And so more data, I think, is going to need to be released, which will hopefully then get back to the creative community.

45:06Ben Liebmann:Where are we at? Conversations continue. And I think that's more of, as I said, that's a reflection of media in 2026. We were with them a couple of nights ago. We were in town for an awards, which was great. They've been, you know, great supporters of the show. They helped us, you know, they didn't help us. They allowed us to tell these stories at the level that we wanted to tell them. But we're not there yet.

45:30Troy Chatterton:Yeah, we had them in when we had the Topjaw team in. Oh, for Chasing Stars. Yeah, and they were emphatic about their love of the show. I'm speaking a little behind the scenes here. Oh, I appreciate that. And I like the Top Draw show, by the way. I thought that was a nice work by Apple. I mean, Apple's doing great work when it comes to food stuff. Yeah. You're a really big part of it.

45:48Ben Liebmann:Look, we want more. Yeah. I mean, look, we want more omnivore, clearly. But we want more food programming across the board. You and I. No, we do. We want those stories told.

45:58Troy Chatterton:Yeah. And not competition, just to say it.

46:03Ben Liebmann:Please, no more competition. Enough, enough.

46:04Troy Chatterton:Enough, enough. So you're waiting. You're waiting, you're waiting. Okay. I really hope it happens season two. I know. You've been a wonderful champion. I appreciate it. It's going to be great. Paul Carmichael. What can we talk about? Because you had mentioned that you might have some Paul Carmichael news.

46:19Ben Liebmann:Paul and I are going to work together, which is really wonderful. I love Paul. He is one of life's great people. That smile can, you know, brighten a dark and cold New York morning. You know, one of our, as an Australian, our greatest regrets is we let Paul go. Yeah. You know, New York's gain with Caboa was Siabo's loss. It was. And, you know, the story with which him going down there to steady the ship and saying, fuck it, I'm going to do what I want to do. And creating that restaurant in his own likeness and the success that it had, just extraordinary. so you know as a friend first and foremost of his I have been so happy to see you know the soft landing that he's had I know the opening like every opening has its challenges but to see it received the way the way it has been and both for the team and the restaurant but him as a chef has just been wonderful to see yeah so you're gonna work with him I am

47:22Troy Chatterton:possibly get a non-competition TV show going we ain't doing that we ain't doing that I love that you have such great instincts Ben about about chefs and talent. And I just, I love picking your brain about the landscape. Let me wrap this up before we get to taste check. What are we going to see in LA? What's your prediction? Noma launching in March. I think Rene's done a beautiful job, as I mentioned, the rollout. But there's still a lot of questions and like that ticket price is always going to be lingering. What are you excited about with this next pop-up?

47:53Ben Liebmann:Exactly what I was excited about when he would release or the team would release a new season. whether that was in Copenhagen or a new pop-up is just the, you know, it's funny what we were saying before of creating a business that had constraints. Those constraints are completely removed when it comes to the creativity of that team. I mean, I think we're seeing some of those ingredients in those videos as they're, you know, getting out and experiencing whether it's the farmer's markets or, you know, going into the hills or heading out into the sea. The seafood and the aquatic life is incredible.

48:28Ben Liebmann:We're going to see ingredients that, you know, I think are going to be shared that we've not seen before. So, look, whether it's from afar or touch wood around the table, I'm super excited by it. Love it. I can't wait to check it out. We all have that dream trip we've been wishing we could go on. But too often, life, or usually price, gets in the way. That's why Priceline is here to help you turn your dream trip into reality. With up to 60 % off hotels and up to 50 % off flights, you can book everything you need for your next adventure. Don't just dream about that next trip. Book it with Priceline.

49:05Ben Liebmann:Download the Priceline app or visit Priceline.com and book your next trip today.

49:10Troy Chatterton:Got your happy price. Priceline. Ben, on This Is Taste, we discuss about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious. Taste check, are you ready? I'm going to do my best. The best fruit. A ripe peach. Oh, so good. Australian peaches. Tell me about them.

49:27Ben Liebmann:We are fortunate, given the size of our country geographically, that pretty much anything is in season all of the time.

49:36Troy Chatterton:Yeah.

49:36Ben Liebmann:So when they're local and when they're at their best, they are as sweet and as delicious as you would imagine. Oh, my gosh.

49:43Troy Chatterton:I had the best avocado of my life in Tasmania all the time.

49:46Ben Liebmann:It was amazing. We are very fortunate there, too. The worst vegetable. you and I I sent you a photo once from a supermarket and I said if you ever have me on the show this is it I think it's called like a saucer squash yes I remember this for Americans I think squash is obviously like a butternut squash this is probably closer to a courgette I love courgettes but these things are small and round and yellow and I apologize to my mother but I remember growing up when they were boiled and they were bitter and they give me chills when I see them in the supermarkets.

50:22Troy Chatterton:I've seen, they're called UFO squashes. That's them. In some places. That's them.

50:25Ben Liebmann:I'm sure there is some way to cook them that is really delicious, but don't boil. Don't boil your courgettes.

50:31Troy Chatterton:What is your typical breakfast?

50:33Ben Liebmann:It's either black coffee or most, usually it's kind of like the overnight oats. Just grabbing, you know, handful of oats, fresh fruit, black coffee. That'll get me through. Or Vegemite on toast.

50:47Troy Chatterton:Love it. You stand by Vegemite. Oh, I will die on that hill. Oh, I mean, I wrote books about Korean food and Taekjong for breakfast. It's the same thing. I mean, it's the same family.

50:57Ben Liebmann:Yeah, absolutely. Noma made a take on Vegemite when they were in Australia. It was wonderful. I bet. The best dessert. There is a dessert from Norway called the world's best dessert. I mean, talk about ballsy. So I love the bravado, but I love this. This is an almond meal sponge cake. with a meringue and custard cream. And my friend and former colleague, Ava, who is Norwegian, gave my wife and I this recipe once. And let me tell you, this is the world's best place.

51:30Troy Chatterton:I love that. I'm going to send it to you.

51:32Ben Liebmann:It is delicious. Do, and maybe we'll write about it on taste. I love that. His advice, double the custard. Oh. And he's 100 % spot on. So I'm going to send you this recipe.

51:41Troy Chatterton:A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead.

51:43Ben Liebmann:Well, Siabo.

51:45Troy Chatterton:Yeah.

51:45Ben Liebmann:You know, and having Paul closer to home. Yeah. David Thompson, before he went on to great international acclaim, had a restaurant in Sydney called Dali Street Thai. And that's just one of those restaurants that you wish you could bring back. Those are great choices.

52:03Troy Chatterton:When you're craving fast food, where are you going?

52:09Ben Liebmann:That's a really good question. I mean, I will probably hit up Shake Shack at LaGuardia just on the way home. We don't have it in Australia. so I'm picking a brand McDonald's yeah

52:20Troy Chatterton:it's good it's good in Australia they do a good job yeah

52:24Ben Liebmann:McDonald's in Australia funnily enough was at the forefront of a lot of the innovation that's since come here the whole McCafe movement yeah came out of Australia

52:31Troy Chatterton:I imagine that yeah it is

52:33Ben Liebmann:yeah no it's look I don't do it that often no it's good on a road trip good on a road trip but it's good if you're out in the bush you can grab a indeed a griddle yes they've just started that in Australia amazingly.

52:46Troy Chatterton:Your favorite city to visit for food in the world?

52:50Ben Liebmann:I think up until a week ago, my answer probably would have been Tokyo or Copenhagen, but fuck, man, New York is special. Yeah. I've heard you say it as well. This is a great food city. I know you don't, you like short answers, but I will say you need to come down to Sydney.

53:06Troy Chatterton:Yeah.

53:07Ben Liebmann:If your question was the most exciting food city in the world, I would say you have to come to Sydney.

53:11Troy Chatterton:I would love to. I've been to Sydney, but it's been 12, 13 years.

53:16Ben Liebmann:What has happened down there post-pandemic is extraordinary. So I would say New York is the best. I'd say Sydney is the most exciting.

53:25Troy Chatterton:Love that answer. I mean, let's just tap into it to Sydney. What makes it exciting? I mean, I know the convergence of seafood and Asian cultures from around Southeast Asia and East Asia.

53:35Ben Liebmann:We are absolutely of our place in the world. And we had a prime minister maybe 20 years ago that said we need to stop looking east and west. We are part of Asia. And if you look at the immigration from Southeast Asia, Thai, I mean, Thai is our national dish. In the same way, you know, many English will say Indian is theirs, Thai is ours. And we're very fortunate for that. But we have a wonderful Korean community, a Japanese community, Chinese community, Indian. You know, we really are fortunate for this ancient country that in terms of its modern civilization is very young has, thank God, been built on immigration and with that people bringing their cuisines with them.

54:21Ben Liebmann:At the same time you have, and it was something that, you know, for a variety of regulatory reasons, but, you know, small wine bars popping up that are now some of the most innovative. You know, Morgan McGlone used to be at Husk in Nashville is now he and his partner are sitting across perhaps some of the most exciting restaurants in the country. Delicious. These are the places I would take you down there. Josh Nyland with what he's doing with seafood. Amazing.

54:49Troy Chatterton:I saw his book in Israel, in Greece. I've seen his book in like seven, many countries.

54:55Ben Liebmann:Amazing job by the publisher, but ultimately Josh is an extraordinary chef. Exactly. I think the challenge we have is just getting people on the plane to come down. When they come, what they see is amazing. So a formal invitation. I appreciate that, Ben. People of Australia, Matt Robvard, come on down.

55:10Troy Chatterton:I appreciate that. We'll bring Clayton and Eliza too. We'll make some episodes. Let's do it. Let's do some. Let's get down there. Let's do it. Last one, your favorite sandwich.

55:20Ben Liebmann:Pastrami on rye.

55:21Troy Chatterton:Yeah. Katz's?

55:23Ben Liebmann:I popped my head in. It was a little late to do it on my own. I've still got 24 hours. I think I'll head back.

55:28Troy Chatterton:I love that choice.

55:30Ben Liebmann:I think I'll head back.

55:31Troy Chatterton:Ben, thank you so much for joining This Is Taste.

55:33Ben Liebmann:I appreciate you. Thank you, Matt.

55:38Troy Chatterton:Troy Chatterton, welcome to This Is Taste. So great to meet you. Thank you. I'm really thrilled to be here and can hardly believe it. Well, I just love the story of Wild Sorrel Cookbooks. You know, it's your forthcoming bookstore in the East Village. First and foremost, I'm linking to the Kickstarter that's in the show notes. You should, if you live in New York, if you love cookbooks and love books, check it out. donate a little bit. You know, this is what we need in our industry. We need independent booksellers. I'll just start by asking you, tell us a little bit about your background working at Three Lives.

56:16Troy Chatterton:I think that that's a lot of folks, maybe some listeners know you from that shop. I mean, I would love to start at Three Lives, but there's a little piece of my past that now that I'm opening Wild Sorrel is all the more relevant or interesting to look back on. I worked at Self Magazine in the late 90s, early 2000s, fifth floor of Condé Nast. And it was the one floor at Condé Nast where it was two different magazines. So Self was on one side, Gourmet was on the other. And I have always loved cooking. I've always loved Gourmet Magazine. I have followed Ruth Reichel with her as a critic at the Times, her story.

57:02Troy Chatterton:And so that Ruth was on the other side of the door that I was working on was a very big deal for me. And to get to the men's restroom, there wasn't one on the self side. You had to go at gourmet. So I was in gourmet all the time and would see that whole mix of the gourmet editors, Ruth, the test kitchens downstairs. Amazing. Did they invite the self crew over for like a cocktail ever? Never. Never. So Conde. Never, but they always got early magazines. And those early magazines that Gourmet got never had the typeface on them. It's just the beautiful photograph. That's why I always got copies. Let me hear about your magazine background.

57:45Troy Chatterton:Were you working in editorial? Was that your first time working in magazines itself in the late 90s? It was my first magazine job. And I kind of feel like I had the perfect scenario because I was a bookings production editor. So I helped with the bookings director with the models, and then I would produce the beauty or the fashion shoots. And it was, for someone who loved magazines, it was literally being on the inside of a magazine, and it was pretty exciting. I loved it. I love it. You end up working as a bookseller. Talk about that transition from working in editorial at Condé. It's a Times Square location, I imagine.

58:26Troy Chatterton:It was Times Square. It was Self. I went on with Cindy to Glamour for years. And then when things started happening in 2008, 2009, that's when I left Condé Nast. And I kind of knew that I wanted a new direction. Not because it hadn't been a great stretch at a magazine, but I just knew I wanted something different. And I always loved books, the world of books. and I had been a long-time customer or a customer at Three Lives since the late 90s. And it was always my favorite bookshop. I mean, it was in the village, great selection of books, always friendly. It was just like a place you wanted to be.

59:15Troy Chatterton:And so I kind of knew pretty specifically that that's the way that I wanted to go and that there was really just one bookshop that I was really interested in working at. And I knew it was Three Lives. How did you get the job at Three Lives? And really, did you just throw yourself into bookselling after leaving Condé Nast? And really, you were there for 14 years. So this has become part of, this is your life for a while. Right. And you just don't see how it's going to evolve and go. But it was a very particular time. I was at an agency working happily, and I was a freelancer, and I knew my time was just coming to an end.

1:00:01And if I could time it just right, that's when I wanted to get a job at a bookshop.

1:00:08Troy Chatterton:So I called Toby, the owner of Three Lives, and I called it just the right time. A bookseller had just left. A position was open, but it was a part-time position. and I went in to meet Toby. He hired me and that was really, that was the beginning. And I knew life at Three Lives was going to be pretty special. I didn't quite know what it was going to be like to be a bookseller at that shop, but I kind of had a real instinct that it would change things for me and it did. What drew you to bookshops? I mean, you're obviously a fan of nonfiction and fiction, of racist reader. Did you just like the retail component, the people component?

1:00:57Troy Chatterton:Yes. I mean, you know, as a kid, I always would go shopping with my grandmother. And I loved the experience of going in small shops and what happened in those small shops. And so Three Lives has that. I mean, anyone that's been there, it's a small shop. It's a neighborhood shop. The selection is so special and specific. But when you go in there, there's, I mean, the place has life. And it's just a great environment to be in. And I just kind of had, I just had a sense that books, the mix of people, it being a neighborhood place, I just. And I wanted to know kind of the nuts and bolts, the inside of working in a bookshop.

1:01:48Troy Chatterton:And it was as interesting, but even more interesting than I had expected. Did you go in 14 years ago thinking one day I'd like to have my own shop? No, I didn't. Yeah, that evolved. In fact, I kind of just thought that in my head that working at Three Lives was it. I didn't want more. I mean, it's such a satisfying place to be, and the work is so satisfying. And the longer you stay, actually, the more interesting and the better it gets. You get to know the regulars that come in, the people who are just passing through when they visit New York City. I mean, there's really a lot to love, and there's a lot of room to grow in a little shop like that.

1:02:39Troy Chatterton:So I really didn't have plans to leave. I was really quite happy being a bookseller. I then became the manager of the shop, which only kind of deepens your understanding of what you're doing. So it was really late into my 14 years that things begin to change a little in my head. Well, let's talk about cookbooks specifically. So we know about your love of food and cooking and being in the proximity to Gourmet was interesting to you. I also know that you were in charge of the bookstore's cookbook selection and you did the buying and merchandising and did events there. So talk about that time, engaging with cookbook authors and how did you buy cookbooks for the store?

1:03:29Troy Chatterton:Right. Well, I mean, to be clear, though, I've never been a buyer at Three Lives. We have two buyers at the shop and between Toby and Miriam, they'll always come to me after they've met with reps and I'll help look through the lists or they'll ask me about a particular book that's coming. And so I always give either my thoughts, if I know the cook, if I know anything about that book that's coming. So I give advice on what I think of this new book, but I've never actually done the buying. So there's going to be a bit of a learning curve, kind of an exciting learning curve as I buy for Wild Sorel.

1:04:18Troy Chatterton:but I will say and this is a piece of it that when you're at Three Lives it's a general bookshop so you have everything you have new novels and nonfiction and poetry and drama and we have one great case of cookbooks that's all we have we have a front table for a lot of face outs for some cookbooks but in that little bit space, there is a lot of energy and a lot of, I mean, you know this, that right now is a really beautiful time in cookbook publishing. There's a lot of excitement. Beautiful books are being made every season. It's just how to choose which ones to choose. That's the question for booksellers and book buyers is like, how do you pick your list out of so many titles.

1:05:14Troy Chatterton:I mean, what's your thought on this will transition to the wild sorrel strategy? What's a downtown cookbook bio looking like these days in New York? It was a really interesting holiday season because you had Samin's book that came out early in the season. And Samin is special. People love salt, fat, acid, heat. We're super excited about this new book after so many years. You had Alison Roman, who people love and love to cook her food for her food is so flavorful and the writing is so good. So I think especially at Three Lives, you have a lot of the main cookbooks that people are really interested in.

1:06:00Troy Chatterton:And those are the ones that people are going for where there's not a lot of space for the more small, specific kind of cookbooks. We try to carry some of them, but that's kind of what I'm really looking forward to at Wild Sorrel because I'll have the space to carry the bigger, more well-known books. And then there's going to be a lot of space to carry the books that need a little help or need a little more attention. Yeah. And the space for people to discover them. So that's what I'll be really interested in. So let's go there. 14 years working at Three Lives. You make the choice to open your own shop.

1:06:49Troy Chatterton:You find space in the East Village. You launch the Kickstarter. was this like a long simmering plan that unfolded over time or was it like a rapid change like i mean it's it's you know a lot of listeners obviously dream of of doing this you've established that you've been working this industry for almost two decades i mean you you put in a lot of time um you know the ins and outs you know the finances but it still must be a lot to to to go on this undertaking of opening the store. Yeah, yeah. About two years ago, I was leaving, walking out of Bonnie Slotnick's shop. And it was the first time I had actually really thought, I was like, wow.

1:07:39Troy Chatterton:I wonder what Bonnie's planning for the future. And then I just kind of got But followed that track of thinking and was like, it'd be a really beautiful thing to have a shop that was totally devoted to cookbooks and what that would feel like. What I didn't realize is a few months later, Bonnie fell and she broke her knee. And I had gone into the shop to just say hello. And Chris, who is a part-time bookseller there and helps out with Bonnie, he said he was like surprised to see me. And he was like, you know what? I think Bonnie would really like to talk to you right now. And so I gave Bonnie a call.

1:08:35Troy Chatterton:Bonnie said, I'm going to be out for a while. I'm having surgery on my knee. Any chance you could work a day, help out a day? And I was like, absolutely. Absolutely. So for the next year on Saturdays, I was at Bonnie's shop. And what was so interesting about the experience is, I mean, I know what it feels like at Three Lives. but being in Bonnie's shop was it reminded me a lot of the Three Lives experience only it was and this seems really obvious it was this whole culinary world and it was so exciting and it was on it was this culinary there was this world that had been created by Bonnie and especially on Saturdays to see people come into that shop just like they do at Three Lives where they come in with this kind of heightened sense of expectation.

1:09:35Troy Chatterton:She's very specific because it's all these older antiquarian cookbooks and that there's so much enthusiasm from people who are interested in food. It was interesting to see what kind of people come into this shop, that they're young and they're older, they're cooks, they're students, There are all sorts of people who are really, really excited about the world of food. And so that whole year really became a special year in that it pretty much clarified that I wanted to open my own shop. And it was just a matter of how and when. And it was so interesting being in Bonnie's shop because it's all, I mean, she really does focus on the older books.

1:10:32Troy Chatterton:Yeah, it's an antiquarian shop with a lot of rare books behind glass. She'll find some things for you similar to Celia out at Omnivore in San Francisco, Matt Sartwell here in New York as well. And I think a big part of going to Bonnie Slotnick is having Bonnie talk to you about books. Right. Did you feel that was a natural flow with you, with your interest and knowledge of cookbooks, that you could talk and answer all the questions about books, about cookbooks? I loved it because, I mean, one of the things that Bonnie wanted me to do is take care of the shelves. And it was so interesting, like really begin to understand that shop and to shelf things and to help customers.

1:11:15Troy Chatterton:But what I began to realize is I loved helping the customers with the older Nigel Slater, with the early Chez Panisse or people who were interested in MFK Fisher and all these really, really important writers and important cookbooks. But all I kept thinking was, imagine having both. Imagine having like focusing on all these important older books that should not be forgotten. And at the same time, carrying all of the new books and the new voices and new food writers and having that mix. And so, you know, Gabriela Camara has this great cookbook called My Mexico City Kitchen. It's a fabulous book.

1:12:00Troy Chatterton:I love that you love that book. We published that like six or seven years ago here at 10 Speed Press. Or Lorena Jones, my old boss's imprint, actually did it. And love that book. It's kind of a hidden gem. I love it. It's one of my favorite Mexican cookbooks. Great book. But how do you even fully appreciate and understand a book like that unless you kind of factor in Diana Kennedy and then everything that happens in between? And Gabriela wouldn't want it any other way. So that year proved to be really, really important to me. And also it was an important year for Bonnie because, I mean, Bonnie's recovered.

1:12:45Troy Chatterton:She's in great shape. And I think she's more energized than ever to have her shop. So to be clear, you're not taking over Bonnie's space. No, no, no, no. And Bonnie's in the East Village as well. You're opening in the East Village. Tell us a little bit about finding the space. What were you looking for? What was the former space? And really knowing this background with Bonnie, you were going to put your own stamp on Wild Sorrel. Like it's going to be your creation and your energy and articulate that. Well, my partner Sam and I, we live in Stuy Town. We've lived there for three years. We love it.

1:13:24Troy Chatterton:So I knew, once I knew I wanted my own shop, it really was a quality of life of, I want a shop where I can walk to that shop every day. And so I began looking in Gramercy, in the top part of the East Village, wanting to give Bonnie her space. She's on Second Street. And just beginning to look around. And I didn't even find this particular space. It's on 13th Street. Sam noticed it. And there was a stretch where I really thought the space for Wild Sorrel was going to be on 11th Street near Venero's on this amazing stretch that had lots of traffic. I know that space. Didn't happen. Okay. But then I found this space on 13th.

1:14:17Troy Chatterton:And like often like things do happen, I think it's a better space. It's better in that there are two beautiful display windows. The square footage is just right. I have a dry basement, perfect for books. It's within walking distance from our apartment. It's 10 minutes from the Union Square Farmer's Market. It's five minutes and you're at Veselka. And it's another eight minutes and you're at Tompkins Square Park. So it's, I feel like a cookbook shop is a destination shop in a lot of ways. And it'll be up to me to get the word out that I'm in the East Village. Because 13th Street is a quieter street than 11th.

1:15:04Troy Chatterton:It sure is. I was going to say, it's like a little bit of a more residential street in the East Village. But you got 14th there, which is the opposite. So you've got that proximity to Union Square. What was the former space? A florist. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's good energy. Yeah, I think so too. So, Troy, like tell us a little bit about the launch. Like I know you're opening soon. Like the Kickstarter, you have a few more days left. So again, in the show notes, the Kickstarter is there. What's the experience going to be like? Are you going to have events? Like what's WildSortle going to be all about?

1:15:39Troy Chatterton:I will have events. I think that I want, because of the space, it's just big enough. A bit like Three Lives, where if I want to have kind of an intimate event, there's enough room for a gathering. Very much like we would have at Three Lives, where you'd have an author come in. The room would fill up with 40 or 50 people. I think that can be really special. Perfect. I love that. And I'm really open to events that are creative in certain ways where maybe it could be more than one cookbook author or it could be just something a little different than the usual. I mean, at Three Lives, what we do often is instead of having an official event, because it's New York City, because so many people are passing through, there are so many authors that are already here.

1:16:40Troy Chatterton:we'll just have an author come by and sign. And I think that's kind of a really nice way to do it because that author can come in, actually acclimate, be in the space, appreciate the space, sign books. People love getting a book that's been signed by the author. And it's really easy as that. St. Mark's Church is not so far. I haven't really explored the idea, But if something bigger comes up, I'd really like the chance to do something at St. Mark's because it too is a really special space. Sure is. And that's a great place for a talk or a conversation. Can't wait to visit. I really can't wait.

1:17:23Troy Chatterton:I'm going to close and ask, what's the mix going to be like? Like what are some titles? Like give us some titles that you just know will be front and center. And have you started buying? Do you have stock? Do you have antiquarian stock? I'm so fascinated about how you build a bookstore and how you open. Well, my apartment looks like a cookbook warehouse right now. I bet. It really does in the best way. Yeah. It's just filling up. But that whole process has been a real – has been new and it's been a real learning. and the way that it's started to unfold. For example, my good friend is and has long been friends with Dorothy Kalins.

1:18:15Troy Chatterton:Who's been on the show? I've listened to your interview. Love Dorothy. It's such an amazing interview. I went back to it after I met her just this fall. So cool. But my friend Elizabeth put me in touch with Dorothy after telling Dorothy that I was opening a cookbook shop and Dorothy was like, put me in touch with Troy. I'm changing my offices. I need to donate books. Put him in touch with me. I reached out to Dorothy. Dorothy said, come to our place. Met with her. Matt, I wish you could have seen her office. It was like a dream come true just to be in a room like that I know that this collection of cookbooks had been collected over years and years and years and all that Dorothy's done.

1:19:03Troy Chatterton:And at some point after we were talking, Dorothy was like, you know what? You don't need me in here. Let me just, I'll leave you in here for a while. Just look through the shelves. Look through, pull, tell me what you want. I'll come back in. I'll say, yes, you can have it. Or no, I want to keep it. So for like an hour or so, I was going through all of these shelves just thinking, I mean, Wild Sorrel is pretty specific in that it's going to be a cookbook shop devoted to the home cook. Yeah. So everything that I look at. That's very cool, Troy. Is through the prism of being a home cook. Is this something that would be right for cooks like you and me?

1:19:45Troy Chatterton:Yeah. And so that's what I did through all of her stacks. And Dorothy came back in. and that was the first real kind of collection of books that I got for the shop. And I mean, what an amazing experience. Yeah, yeah. I mean, to have some of those books on sale and available and also with the front list, it's such a cool combination. The fact that you want to be focused on the home cook and not maybe restaurant books. What about like culinary writing? What about like non-cookbooks? Are you going to cover? For sure. I mean, there's no way that I would want the shop to only be filled with cookbooks.

1:20:27Troy Chatterton:And I think it's just if you are a cook and if you care about food and this whole world, then there's no way that you don't want to tap into Diana Henry or read the work of MFK Fisher or Ruth Reichel. And so I'll always have old and new from food writing. I want to also definitely have books on gardening because that's all a piece of cooking and travel as well. I mean, you cover it. You and Eliza cover it all the time on your show. Anyone who's interested in this is when we travel, whether we're going to Los Angeles or we're going to London or wherever, where we are going to eat, what markets we are going to go to, what bookshops we're going to visit are all kind of at the top of our list.

1:21:26Troy Chatterton:And so I want my shop to also help those customers who are going to these cities, help them figure it out. I love it. I love that you will have the ability to offer some books about destination. I think that's such a smart move. in different formats. I'm sure you'll have some indies. Will you have some periodicals, magazines, maybe cake scene? For sure. Things like that. Okay. I really want this shop to reflect all the things I'm interested in. Yeah. All the things that I love. And so when someone comes into this shop, they will see a real reflection of all of those interests, but you know as well as I do how food people are so opinionated.

1:22:14Troy Chatterton:They have so much that they want to share with you. So I am going to always keep a list of those cookbooks that I don't have, that people think I should have, and things that I don't know. I mean, it's a big world, the cooking world, and I'm not going to allow myself to be intimidated by not knowing at all. I think that there's I'm really excited about what people are going to bring to the I mean they're going to, the customers are going to dictate what you cover. Yes. And what you sell. I mean that's I mean it happens at three lives. I mean we have very clear ideas particular ideas about what we want on the shelves but we're always thinking of the customer and then those customers are always coming to us with what they want and we're just listening.

1:23:02Troy Chatterton:I love that. So when are you going to open? And are you in the space now? I should have keys by February 1st. Okay. So very soon. Yeah, I figured you don't have keys, but you're going to have keys soon. Yes. And I'm at three lives for one more month. Yeah. So through February. We'll say, hey to Troy that last month. You know, Troy, you got to get that last visit in. And I don't want to rush a single day of it. No. And then March will really be the full on month to pull the space. by buying together. So the goal is to open in the first week of April. I love that. Well, how about this? I'm going to pay a visit.

1:23:43Troy Chatterton:Maybe we'll bring a microphone and see how it's going. We'll come back, catch up with you once we're in the space and see how things are. I'd love that. Want to do that? I'd love that. We'll do that by April, May. We'll give you a couple months to get it going and we'll stop by. I love this conversation. Matt, can I add one thing? Sure, yeah. Back in August 2024, I was listening to your interview with Rene Ridzepi. Okay. Really good interview. Thank you. Appreciate that. And at the end, you and Eliza are talking about all sorts of things. Yeah. And you, the two of you are talking about this idea of a pop-up.

1:24:25Troy Chatterton:Do you remember this? A pop-up version of Taste. Wow. And I literally write in my notebook because in August of 2024, I'm thinking about my shop and I'm thinking about putting it all together. And I literally write, I will reach out to Matt and Eliza and see if they're interested in doing a version. Because what you literally said was, let's bring the studio to a space. Bring the writers, bring the fans, and have this kind of space surrounded by cookbooks where we can bring taste. So that's the dream. So just keep it in mind that Wild Sorrel could be home to your pop-up. Well, Troy, that's amazing that you recall that conversation.

1:25:18Troy Chatterton:I vaguely remember it. But I've always thought about this. We've brought the show to live back for a little history. And if you're this far in the interview, you're interested. We started at Books Are Magic before they opened their Brooklyn location. So our first interview ever on Taste was in September of 2018 with Samin Nasrat in front of a live audience at Books Are Magic. So we have this deep history with booksellers and doing live conversations. We did with Mike and Emma. We did two and a half years at Books Are Magic. I believe the pandemic kind of came in and we stopped. And then we've been at Rizzoli ever since.

1:25:58Troy Chatterton:We've been doing events at Rizzoli, four to six events a year, have had Jamie Oliver and Ruth Royschel and so many great conversations there. I will say this. We would be honored to do some live recordings at your store. And let's get offline. Let's figure it out. We'd love to do that. I think bringing taste to the East Village is I used to live on 7th Street back in the day about 22 years ago. I love the neighborhood. So I'm very interested. Wonderful. Let's do it. Monster Energy. Everybody knows White Monster Zero Ultra. That's the OG. It kicked off this whole zero sugar energy drink thing. But Ultra is a whole lineup now.

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1:28:00Troy Chatterton:Well, we can't let you go without taking Taste Check. As somebody who's listened to the show, you've probably listened to a few of these. And I just have to give it to you because I know you've been thinking. And you're like, oh, man, that guy was right. Oh, that was wrong. I can't believe I'm doing this. As you know, on This is Taste, we discuss about their certain tastes. So to close this interview, here's a rapid-fire, fast, and furious Taste Check. Troy, are you ready? I am ready. The best fruit. I love a peach. Yeah. I love a peach. But also, I have to say, I know it's a vegetable, but I get most excited for rhubarb.

1:28:35Troy Chatterton:Yeah. I didn't even know that was a—I always assumed that was fruit. That's crazy. I mean— It is a vegetable. It's a vegetable. Yeah, you're right. I mean, it has so much potential. It's one of the first in the season, and I just—I love it. sorrel though yeah what what's what's the story with sorrel it's it's as simple as that i or as simple as this um i'm a big fan of monty don do you know monty don he's one of the the great gardeners in the uk and he's the host of gardeners world and has been for quite some time so i watch his show religiously and last spring 2025 he was planting his spring greens or herbs and sorrel was one of them and it's the light bulb went off i was like that's it that's the name of the shop um sorrel and then sorrel there's also wild sorrel yeah it's prolific people forage for it I just, I read about it and just everything that it stands for just really, it sounded like a great name.

1:29:47Troy Chatterton:So Wild Sorrel. I love it. It's, it's, and it's connected to a gardening, a gardener is, is very special. The worst vegetable. I really love vegetables. Yeah. So I don't really have. You got to answer it though. You know that, you know the deal, Troy. Well, can I say this without naming a vegetable? Whenever I think of worst vegetable, people really love to hate summer squash. Yeah. I don't hate summer squash. Tell me. I mean— You must have a recipe or two. I grew up with my mom's friends making zucchini bread, which I loved. And for anyone who loves Deb Perlman, she has a zucchini, butter, spaghetti that will make you believe in summer squash again.

1:30:33Troy Chatterton:It's really delicious. I have no doubt Deb has an amazing recipe. What is your typical breakfast? I mix it up so it's never the same thing. I love as simple as toast and jam.

1:30:50Troy Chatterton:My kind of dream breakfast when I travel, if I'm in San Francisco, could anything be better than the morning bun at Tartine? Oh, yeah. This is such a good call. You're spot on. That's a great, great bite. And on the weekends, scrambled eggs and hot sauce from Dimes. Oh, nice. The best dessert? I really love bread pudding. Mmm. When I was in college, I worked at a French restaurant called La Cuisine, and they did a croissant bread pudding. Oh, yeah. And then I was a waiter at Lucky Strike. No way. For a bit. Oh, that's a good, what a scene. And in that window where the food would pass, there was always a tin that had their bread pudding with raspberry sauce.

1:31:39Troy Chatterton:Did you read the McNally memoir? I haven't yet because I've been very busy. You have been. But Keith was just at Three Lives in the last month or two. Yeah. So it was a really great moment to be able to tell him that, I mean, I love pastis. Yeah. What a great. And the original too. I'm sure that's what you speak of I like the current one, it's a nice restaurant I'm not going to knock on it, but there's nothing like the original No, I always say that first room when you walked into the old pasties was one of the great rooms in any restaurant especially in the morning Famously, Tom Brown ate breakfast there every single morning Didn't know that Yeah, that was, I remember a little fun fact there But Keith was amazing, it was so good to see him A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead to come to mind I loved Franny's in Brooklyn that clam pie I'll never have a clam pie as good as that and then they had do you remember do you remember Franny's?

1:32:44Troy Chatterton:of course yeah absolutely yeah I mean up on Flatbush like it was I mean it was everything and the pedigree of chefs coming out of there today many run run the best restaurants in the country yes but the style of service This is what always got me at Franny's. Right. Very cool place. Just to be in that room. And then do you remember they had a dark chocolate sorbet? Oh. And it was so deep and so perfect. And it would be this perfect big scoop of sorbet and these perfect cups. And so I really, I'd love that restaurant to be brought back to life. And the other one is, do you remember Cafe Moto? In Red Hook?

1:33:27Troy Chatterton:In Williamsburg. Williamsburg. Williamsburg, right. Sorry. Under the subway tracks. Yes. And it was kind of in a, it looked like a small flat iron building. Of course, the subway tracks threw me over the Red Hook. Yes, I do remember this place. And you'd walk in. At the time, musicians were in the front. Great little bar. And they had a sticky toffee date cake. That was incredible. I mean, Troy, I'm just like projecting. It seems that having a pastry case at Wild Sorrel seems to be. Do you have any, I mean, it's like half serious. But, like, do you have an idea of incorporating food service into Wildsboro?

1:34:02Troy Chatterton:No. I mean, I think it might be a little tricky because of the space and being able to carry food. But I do really love the idea of always having jams, marmalade, that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah. And the real fantasy, I don't know if this will ever happen, but I do plan to have a refrigerator in the shop that has a freezer. And if there's any way that I could strike a deal with Superiority Burger, I would always keep it stocked with pints of their gelato. Well, Brooks, it seems like you might have a partnership. And he's so community-minded, as are you, that, yeah. And I'm kind of serious about it because you've had his gelato, right?

1:34:49Troy Chatterton:To me, it is the best gelato in the city. Yeah, absolutely. New York City, it's hands down the best. And always just rotating with the seasons, too. That's the thing. And the gelato sorbet is working off each other. Always surprising the flavors. You never know. When you open, you can get the superiority fridge set up. Your favorite city outside of America to visit for food? London. Nice. I love London. In fact, we were there last spring, and the place I would hope not to miss is River Cafe. I mean, just walking in that room, sitting on that patio, it's just the history of it, the way. It's just really special.

1:35:35Troy Chatterton:But there was one restaurant that I'd never been to before, knew, that really got my attention. It's called Canteen on Portobello Road. Oh, cool. And we sat at the back bar. Yeah. The chefs were right there in front of us, and it was really special. That's a great call. Last one, your favorite sandwich. A BLT. And you don't even have to go to a restaurant for it. No, no, no. You do it yourself. It's like summertime. Yeah. Good bread, ripe tomatoes, bacon, mayo, crispy lettuce, salt and pepper. It's like, it's perfect. It's so good. Well, Troy, we're going to do this live recording. We'll come visit you.

1:36:17Troy Chatterton:Troy, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you for having me.

1:36:28Troy Chatterton:This Is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skirzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com And make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.

1:37:28Good night.