724: A Rising Star Chef, 20 Years in the Making, with Corima’s Fidel Caballero

19:19Matt:Well, I was going to, I started going to school for industrial design. You know, like I was like, you know, that was what I was going to do. You're like an art kid. Yeah, kind of, yeah. Like, I think it's always been, you know, yeah, I've always been into art. I've always been into, like, just writing music or playing music or, you know, like. So, yeah. So, I was, you know, I wanted to design. I wanted to design school. I also wanted to build furniture, you know. Like, it was, like, all these little things that I wanted to do. And I was, like, on the path. You know, I was about to graduate high school, and I got a job.

19:53Matt:you know I got a job as a as a server and uh or kind of like a busser server and I just like this is my first time at a restaurant like working at a restaurant and I look over and I just see these like the cooks just being like it was kind of like a punk band you know like it was just kind of like that you know that band or that hardcore band and the way they were treating themselves and treating each other and like having fun and you could see it it was a little rough it was like you know it was so interesting to me and it was like you know such a live like lively experience to see somebody like just working at that like speed and you know like being so multi you know and that was like the first thing that i saw and i was like oh my god this restaurant was olive garden so good yeah it was olive garden and uh you know like and i had decided that i was like i told the manager i was like i think i want to go back there and he was like are you sure it's like a bunch of big cholos you know like you know i'll tad it you know like you know i was like yeah this sounds like it looks so cool and yeah like i i stepped my foot in there and it was like oh my god it kind of changed the way i like i looked at restaurants you know and um yeah it was super fun

21:00Fidel Caballero:if you're like going like to band practice like the camaraderie with like the dudes just hanging out and of course you're working hard in that kitchen yeah it was one of those things i kind

21:08Matt:of felt that way you know i feel that like it was that weird connection towards you know and it was it was it was cool it was fun and you know i you know i went to band practice after that and It was, you know, it was just, and then I took it a little more serious. You know, there was one of the guys, you know, everybody you could see, they were like cooking there and not, it was a job for them, obviously. You know, but there was one guy that was like kind of the leader of like, you know, kind of, you know, like, I don't want to call him a chef, but he was like the, you know, the manager, the kitchen manager.

21:37Matt:He was like, kind of seems like you're interested on this more than just for a job. I think you should like pursue something over it. And weirdly enough, the school that I was going for, like I was doing my basics and stuff too. you know, to become a designer, across the street, there was a culinary institute.

21:53Fidel Caballero:Oh, cool.

21:54Matt:Yeah. It was like, so, you know, when I was in class, I would just look at all these guys, like, dressed as chefs and, like, going to school and, like, going and, you know, like, you hear, like, the chopping and the, like, searing and all this stuff. And I was like, and I filled all my classes, you know, because I was just paying attention to what was happening across the hallway.

22:13Fidel Caballero:Your heart was not in industrial design. You knew you wanted to be a chef.

22:16Matt:Exactly. so then I just took the next semester I enrolled on it and I kept working and then I switched obviously like all the garden they had to do to me and then I just moved on to kind of the cool restaurants that were around in El Paso everybody started moving to Austin and I was one of those guys I was like no I'm going to stay here in El Paso because everybody was like there's nothing in El Paso you know how it goes Austin is the next big city again like I was saying like I was rarely into music so everybody's like I'm going to move because Austin obviously is huge in music and food scene was like booming there so everybody just started moving there and I was like I'm just going to stay here and try to do it and I cooked there for about like five like the first five years

23:00Fidel Caballero:in El Paso at some of the cool restaurants

23:02Matt:yeah and then I ran some of those cool restaurants and just you know like I kind of grew out of it

23:07Fidel Caballero:well I know there's more bio backstory to go over but I want to like leap ahead and you make the decision, Fidel, to get to China, which is wild, ambitious, and I'm sure informed you in a way that has kind of taken your career to the highest level with the Michelin star and James Beard nominations. But how did you land in China and what were you doing there?

23:36Matt:So it was, again, it was back in El Paso. All this started back in El Paso. So I finished cooking for other people and blah, blah, blah. And, you know, food trucks were a thing, you know, like at that time. Yeah. And I went on Craigslist and found a food truck. Yeah. And I rented a food truck and I called my best friend, you know. And I was like, hey, do you want to like do this with me? I think we can do it, man. You know, like we can just pay the first month to rent and we'll just start doing it from there. You know, obviously so naive of us. I think you can start a business just like that. So, but it was fun, you know, taught me a lot of things.

24:09Matt:So we started just cooking like just, you know, regular food and like kind of like bar food. We'll like park outside of bars and like a set of shows. And we knew where the shows were happening and what it was going to be, you know. And just this dude came up to me and like we were cooking and he ordered the whole menu and he had it. And then afterwards he was like, hey, would you be interested in cooking in China? And I was like, yeah, sure, dude, whatever. So then I just took it as that. I was like, yeah. I was like, let's see how far I can put, like, you know, how long I can just like. kind of do this and then he was like yeah if i can get your email that'll be great i was like whatever so i give him an email he's like can i also have your phone i was like this is weird but i was 24 years old i was like sure dude here like take it so yeah you know took that and um and then yeah like two days later i get an email saying like hey this is blah blah you know um uh i have a friend then he started telling me the story on this email he started telling a story about his friend that he's also from ol paso and he lives in shanhai and you know he's trying to you know he has three restaurants going and you know so much for him to like run so he needs somebody to help him out and i was like okay you know i'm just gonna wait you're like okay like you like i'll do it well i was like okay cool like sure like he was like at the end he was like can i just give you can i can i transfer this conversation to my friend i was like sure man you know whatever yeah so he did and then yeah we hopped on a skype call that dates it's like 15 years yeah exactly

25:36Fidel Caballero:We do in Skype. Yeah, we did a Skype call.

25:38Matt:And then, yeah, he was like, hey, man, this is it, blah, blah. You know, and I was like, sure. And I was like, can I get 24 hours to think about it? And he was like, sure, 24 hours. If not, like, dude, I need to move on. And I was like, okay. So, like, that minute, like, 24 hours later in a minute, like, called me. And he was like, so what's it going to be? And I was like, I'll take the job. You know, I'll go. He was like, great. Let me just buy your ticket right now. And I was like, wait, what? He was like, yeah, you leave in three days. And I was like, what? what yeah he's like yeah man like if you're gonna do it like you're gonna do it now you know and i was like okay so i called my best friend freddy i was like freddy like we had the food truck and i was like bro like i think we need to like talk about this he was like oh okay he was like he's the one because i was i felt a little bad about it you know but it was like such a huge opportunity and freddy was the one that was like dude if you don't take this opportunity you're an idiot you

26:24Fidel Caballero:know you need a you know freddy came through absolutely that's nice and did freddy keep doing

26:29Matt:the food truck while you were in the food truck for like a couple of months and then he needed

26:33Fidel Caballero:Fidel though obviously and then a couple months

26:35Matt:no but it's cool because like a couple months and then he we need another person in China so I was like yo Freddie like we need another person are you down and he was like yeah I was like just sell everything that we own and like return the food truck so we returned the food truck and then like he took the money and ran you know and then bought him a ticket you know then he was in Shanghai and then he was my roommate

26:55Fidel Caballero:so that's so let's talk about it you landed in Shanghai and they want do they want like the food that you're cooking in the food truck or are you like kind of are you cooking this hybrid cuisine no yeah it was a french

27:05Matt:restaurant oh word okay french restaurant it was like this beautiful like fine dining like super super nice restaurant um and yeah like he just needed help running it and i mean i wasn't prepared to run like a full-on like especially in china which is like everything's completely like yeah i was i've been to europe but i have never been to like you know to asia Asia and it was like that's a culture shock you know that's like so yeah I mean you know we started doing that you know with his guidance we kind of ran it and you know Freddie helped out we both did it at the same time we were doing it so it was cool you know it was cool to run that it was food that I already knew how to cook so it wasn't that that complicated it was more like like the the sourcing of the ingredients and all that you know it was a little harder but but then uh but then yeah I mean that was my job but then you know the owners of the restaurant were like sweethearts they It would take us out like everywhere, show us new cuisines, show us like new places.

28:01Matt:It was like the most fun I had and not just fun. It was like that's when I really like realized like, yes, I want to be a chef.

28:07Fidel Caballero:This is a career move for you. Yeah, this is what I want to do.

28:09Matt:And I fell in love with Chinese culture and Chinese cuisine. And I still think it's one of the best ones in the world, you know.

28:14Fidel Caballero:Let me unpack this just a little bit. You're cooking in China. Like, are you there for a long time? And are you just starting to taste flavors that maybe you see now on your menu at Karima? Just like the idea of like using this kind of inspiration of like, you know, umami flavors from China, which is very different from where you grew up.

28:36Matt:Yeah. I mean, I think like there was one of these things that like you always get homesick or at least I do, you know, especially when you're like in a country that like you don't know the language. You can't read the language. You know, you can't like it's just hard, you know, like and I did this thing that I learned how to do. And it's just, if I feel homesick, I just start, like, connecting food that I'm eating to the food that I grew up with. And that always helped. And I thought it was, like, a coping mechanism first. But now it's an inspiration of, like, this restaurant, which is the most beautiful thing.

29:08Matt:Because you would never think that, you know, by, like, eating, like, scallion pancakes, for instance, you know, it would be like, this is kind of like a weirdly flour tortilla, you know. and uh and i was like you know and now the recipe for the tortilla that we have at at korima it's inspired on a scallion pancake you know and it's like so now we made it instead of making a regular traditional like flour tortilla i would decided to make like this like scallion pancake like kind of like idea towards it and it is flaky and it flakes off like a like it oh it sure is yeah so it's oh it is yeah so that's kind of like the beauty of it you know and that's kind what helped and all these like techniques like I said like this owner like the owner of the restaurant was such a sweetheart that he was like yes you're here cooking like French food yeah but we're gonna show you what like China's all about how long are you in China for?

29:57Matt:for like a year yeah a little over a year yeah you know a little over a year and I it's yeah I mean I miss it every day you know

30:05Fidel Caballero:you'll be back I'm sure

30:06Matt:yeah I mean I was telling Sophia I was like it's crazy because when we were thinking about opening this restaurant it was during the pandemic yeah And it was like, she was like, well, where do you want to open it? I was like, either New York City, Mexico, or Shanghai. She was like, well, Shanghai is going to be a little harder to open.

30:23Fidel Caballero:But yeah, I mean, I love that city. That's cool. So fast forwarding a little bit, you end up working at Contra. You end up in New York, and you're kind of in the early crew at Contra. And we're talking about Contra 1.0, the Fabian and Jeremiah's restaurant, that great acclaim. What's that time like you spent over three years there?

30:42Matt:Yeah, it was three years. You know, it was during, I joined 2018.

30:48Fidel Caballero:Yeah.

30:49Matt:Just came back. I was at Martin Berazategui in the Basque Country for some time before that. And, yeah, and I was just looking for the next step. I was looking for the next step. And I was looking for, I actually had dinner there in 2017. And I was like, I want to work here. You know, it's El Sofia. We were still, we went from Martin back to El Paso for a little bit just to kind of gather our stuff. And then, yeah, and then we just did a trip to New York to see what it was all about. And, yeah, we landed at Contra having, you know, just got their first start. And it was like, it was so good. It was so good.

31:26Matt:And I was like, I want to work here, you know. And, yeah, I mean, that's – and then I went back to El Paso. I gathered my stuff with Sophia, with my wife. Sophia's my wife, by the way. And, yeah, we just – I just came here, and I was like, I'm not going to take a no for an answer. so what did they what did they respond when you said that well like I just showed it was cool because I showed up and I just I was the guy that showed up with the resume instead of sending the resume you know yeah you know to put a face on it you know and so I just hang on my resume and Fabs was there and then I walked walked out and then like 20 minutes later I get a text message from Fabs saying like hey do you want to come do a stage and I was like absolutely so you know two days later I did it you know and it went well and then I ran the grill I mean the meat roast station for four months and then after those four months I started and then I was the sous chef you know and I was doing the day to day you know it was super fun it was you know at that time it was that you know the restaurant that everybody wanted to work at yeah and it was doing it was a tasting menu right it was a tasting menu

32:29Fidel Caballero:that's the thing to keep in mind in what Contra that period was so exciting not to say Bar Contra is not exciting but this tasting menu was evolving all the time I had folks like you in the back, like, running it as sous chef. And really big ideas coming in the kitchen, but delicious food.

32:44Matt:And, like, they teach you the ambition, right?

32:47Fidel Caballero:Sure.

32:47Matt:You know, like, that's – I think one of the things that I learned the most out of that restaurant was the ambition, you know? The stuff that we can actually do and what we cannot do and who we are and, like – And it's the most beautiful thing, you know, show me about vegetables, show me about, like, about seasonality in New York. Yeah. I think it was a perfect restaurant for a person like me to join already in mind of opening up a restaurant. You know, so it was one of those things. And Jerry was like, you know, he's one of my mentors, you know. And Jerry was, he guided me towards, you know, like what, you know, what food should look like in New York.

33:26Fidel Caballero:Yeah, and those are such great mentors and really not just on the culinary side, but of course you mentioned the ambition, the business sense. Yeah. Keeping it open in the Lori side. And that segues to Karima. When did you decide to leave Contra, open a place and like kind of open in this scrappy little part of New York that maybe wasn't known as a restaurant mecca? Kind of has that Contra 2015 vibe, like kind of pioneering in this block and also the format. Like, Fidel, tell me how you figured out the format at Karima.

33:58Matt:Well, yeah, I mean, it was I think 2021. Yeah, 2021 when I decided to kind of, that was when Contra was getting ready to open back up.

34:08Fidel Caballero:Yeah.

34:08Matt:You know, we opened and then we closed, you know, like it closed because of COVID first time. And then we reopened with like a 50%, you know, capacity or whatever. And then COVID got bad again. So we had to close again. And they were ready to reopen again. And I think it was just my time. You know, like I, you know, I was already in my 30s and I was like, I think I need it. Like it's either now or never, you know? Yeah. Pop-ups were a thing. You know, pop-ups were a huge thing. And, you know, yeah, I started doing pop-ups. So, you know, I talked to them. They were, they understood, you know. I wanted to roast coffee, too.

34:43Matt:I was like, I think I want to take a break from, like, cooking. I was like, so I told Fabson Jerry, I was like, I think I'm going to, like, take some classes on roasting coffee and, like, kind of learn the whole, you know, which it helped now with Vato. But, so I did that. And then I was like, this is way too slow. So, you know, after three months of roasting coffee, I was like, I don't think I can. A little sleepy for you as a chef. Yeah, a little sleepy for me.

35:04Fidel Caballero:But you're thinking just not as an aside, you know, that you're thinking about Mexican coffees, green coffees, right? And roasting those. Exactly. And that's something that I think is really needed in America. There's a few spots that do it. Portland is a great place. But, like, honestly, so cool that you're doing that.

35:19Matt:Yeah. So, you know, it was one of those things that I was like, I was interested on it. And then I was so sleepy. And then I was like, I'm going to go back to kitchens. and instead of going to a kitchen where it was still kind of like COVID times I was like I'm just going to start doing like pop ups you know see what happens my first pop up was at Redora which is this like wine bar in Four Green

35:38Fidel Caballero:lots of pop ups at Redora so cool

35:40Matt:so we were yeah we like I was one of the you know when I got there one of my friends did a pop up and I was like what is this place and I helped him out and I was like what is this place he's like dude kitchen they don't use the kitchen you should you know you should ask so I asked and has a huge grill, whatever. It's, like, beautiful, as everybody knows. And then I just asked for a pop-up. And I was like, I don't think I want, like, a day pop-up or a two-day. And I asked for a residency, and the owners were like, you're kidding. This is crazy. And I was like, come on, let's try it. Let's do three months.

36:11Matt:So we did three months of, like, a residency. And it went, like, you know, phenomenal. It's so hard to do pop-ups, you know, because it's, like, one of those things that you're, like, opening up a restaurant every time.

36:22Fidel Caballero:I know. We've talked about the show a lot. And like the economics are challenging too. And there's like, you can't like get efficiencies in there because you're temporary and you're not investing for the long haul. But yeah, three months is a long run there. And that's, I remember when it was happening in real time. It was exciting stuff, man.

36:37Matt:Yeah. And it was one of those, you know, that was my, you know, my source of income. So I needed to have something. So that's what I decided to do.

36:45Fidel Caballero:So you did the pop-ups. And then when does the lease kind of happen at this location that, you know, do you call Chinatown? What do you, what do you call the location?

36:54Matt:I mean, our neighbor is that huge thing that says Chinatown. So I guess we call ourselves Chinatown, you know? What is like, you know, Allen is like, you know, it's like Lower East Side and then it's Chinatown. It kind of ends up right on the edge. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I mean, we call it Chinatown. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, we always look for space in Chinatown. First we did East Village. We wanted to do East Village, you know? But it was so hard to find one. Everything was packed. And then I found myself always going to Chinatown. And because of that, again, that time that I spent in China, I always like to, you know, the smell, the taste, the product, everything.

37:26Matt:I just found myself going like two to three times a week. Yeah. Going to Chinatown. And I was like, let's just look in Chinatown and see what happens. Yeah. And sure enough, it was a bus station. You know, it took us a year and three months to find the space. It was a bus station. We opened the doors and we were like, it's here. It was not a restaurant. So we had to like, there was no hood. There was no HVAC. There was nothing. Wow. Nothing. There was no walk-in. There was nothing. Was that expensive to build out? It was. It was a headache, too, you know, because it's, you know, like being first-time owners and then trying to build it from scratch.

38:01Matt:It's, like, so hard and, like, learning the hard way. So it was very challenging. But, you know, it definitely takes a village, you know, and everybody helped out. And it was, you know, everybody put two cents, and now we're open.

38:14Fidel Caballero:So the menu is inspired by northern Mexican states, but also your global experience working in the Basque region, of course, your time in China. Just for our listeners who maybe know the name but haven't dined there, what is a meal like at Karima these days?

38:30Matt:So we have two versions of the meal. We have a nala carte and we have a tasting menu. Tasting menu is now 15 courses.

38:37Fidel Caballero:Oh, wow. It's 15. That's much more. I was there about a year and a half ago and it was like half of that. So that's cool. Yeah.

38:43Matt:I mean, we do start with four snacks. Like the first four bites is very small. But it kind of tells a story, you know. It kind of tells a story of each region in northern Mexico with the techniques and the experience and the inspiration that I've had over the years, over the 20 years. So that was kind of the vibe into it. So we do four snacks, and then we always have like a raw course, kind of like either a ceviche or nahuachile. after that we do a vegetable or some sort of starch right now we're doing like a with arroz meloso made out of its livers and you know some abalone you know and it's super super nice and then we have like some sort of mole or a pipiade and then we do desserts you know and then we do it's a super extensive menu we pack it all in like 2 hours and 15 minutes

39:35Fidel Caballero:and you get the plancha right there and you can see if you're sitting at the counter. Exactly. You can see it all happening.

39:41Matt:So we just got gas. I don't know if you, when you went, we didn't have any gas. No, you didn't. Now we have gas. It's been like five months. Woo-hoo.

39:47Fidel Caballero:Wow.

39:48Matt:So that's one of the challenges about opening the restaurant, right? And being like first-timers. You're like, yeah, let's call and connect our gas. And it's like, oh, this takes six months, you know?

39:57Fidel Caballero:Yeah, New York City doesn't do you any favors.

40:00Matt:Exactly. So it was one of those. But now it feels like a real restaurant.

40:05Fidel Caballero:What does a restaurant relay mean to you? I think I peeped the cookbook there. And I don't know. Are you inspired by? Rulé? Yeah. Absolutely. Christian Pellisi. That's so interesting. It's my favorite restaurant. I saw the book and then I made the connection because I got to go to Rulé a few times. Me too. And I saw the thread. Oh, my God. I love that restaurant. That's so cool. I didn't like that.

40:26Matt:I think it's one of the best restaurants ever existed. That's so cool. Yeah. And the way they do it, they used to do it. Yeah.

40:33Fidel Caballero:I used to do it in Copenhagen to remind everyone. Breaks my heart.

40:35Matt:You know?

40:36Fidel Caballero:Yeah. though Christian I'm sure it will happen sometime he'll do something but I just think the style and I draw the connection just the way that you just explained the menu and like Raleigh you know it felt like tasting but like definitely switching around order a little bit thinking about not thinking about tradition but of course having anchor like you know on the on the plancha at the time I had a quesadilla that was

41:00Matt:yeah yeah thanks and we also like it's so funny that you mentioned it because we do that we we don't follow like a superstructure like sometimes we serve you the fish as a second course there you go you know and then we finish with a taco you know so like and I think it's because that's the way it should be you know and that's the way it should be eaten and we try like we trial and error so much there and then we go through dishes so much and then we finalize a dish and then we try the whole menu with it and then see if it makes sense or where it makes sense that's interesting so a lot of work into it

41:33Fidel Caballero:so from the outside looking in it's like okay this restaurant is crushing it. I mean, it's like you've got the star, you've got all the acclaim, but I'd like to bring some real talk into the show and just tell me about what it's actually like day to day. We're in January right now, not an easy month for anybody. Is it working out financially or is it still kind of a challenge? No, so we're I mean, it is a challenge, always

41:54Matt:a challenge. It's a New York City restaurant, you know. It's a challenge, but I think the model of the restaurant, you know, kind of helped out a lot. And this is the reason why the model of the restaurant is like this because we were we were a little when we started we weren't going to be a tasting menu we were going to be an all the cart and then when we found the spot we were like oh this kind of feels like a tasting menu vibe so it's kind of like like lean towards that and we're like let's just do both let's see what happens and right now it's like thank god we did that because tasting menu is on January not a thing but going all the cart is you know so it always helps you know like 10 months out of the year we're packed on tastings and then 2 months when they're slow So it's like we're packed with a la carte.

42:36Matt:So, you know, we're very lucky that we decided to go with this model, this business model, because –

42:43Fidel Caballero:Yeah.

42:43Matt:And not to mention that the a la carte is, like, less. Like, you know, we still pay so much attention. Oh, of course.

42:48Fidel Caballero:And you're, like, riffing off of each other, I'm sure. Exactly.

42:51Matt:Well, at first, like, it was so insane because we decided not to do that. It was so crazy. We were like, we're going to separate them both. They're both going to be so, like, great, but it's going to – so you can, like, not have a dish from the a la carte and have it in a tasting menu. But then eventually, we, you know, like, we're like, we need a break, you know. We were prepping seven days, you know, seven days a week. And it was like, it was not healthy. And we were working. We were pushing the limits. So, you know, but now, like, now the restaurant has a flow. And now the restaurant has kind of an idea of what we're doing.

43:21Fidel Caballero:Do you still have slow nights, though?

43:24Matt:We do. We do. You know, obviously, we do. You know, but we're lucky that, like, our slow nights are 45 covers, 50 covers, you know. so you know and for like we sit 54 you know so

43:37Fidel Caballero:I only ask that because I just want some real talk of course you know you're you're really the bell the ball right these days all this press but like you know everyone has slow nights

43:45Matt:of course yeah and everybody everybody has slow nights you know even if all this like recognition and all this you know yeah it's we're all struggling you know like every single restaurant in your life struggles like this except servos it seems like servos is packed all the time it's a tiny restaurant I guess you're right

44:02Fidel Caballero:The small restaurant. But Servo's, you know, whatever, eight years in, they're doing fine. But I think in your story, there's a second restaurant. And I have to say, no slow mornings, no slow afternoons. Vato really exploded onto the scene. I read about it, I think, in November. And then I got to go in late December. And exceptional. Thank you. Really just doing a splitting kind of ideas, doing breakfast burritos and doing pastry and just coffee program is exciting. And opening it in Park Slope and kind of not, for me at least, I lived in Carroll Gardens for years, not really a restaurant mecca.

44:47Fidel Caballero:But you like did something very cool. Fidel, how did you get to Vato and what's it been like opening?

44:52Matt:I mean, I was tired of eating terrible burritos. Yeah, man. I don't know. the burritos that you know like are my version of burritos and another like in other parts of like the border are completely different yeah uh i feel like the burrito shouldn't be a like lunch and dinner it should be like just one you know and you don't you don't eat half of it the other half you like put it away and uh no rice you know no rice in it so we wanted to bring this like this idea like you know that this this concept that you know we grew up with and and and um you know vato means homie so we wanted you know the reason why we opened a park slope is because we wanted everybody to be homies um you know kind of our regulars to know everyone's names and you know kind of like you know be part of the homies you know and and that was kind of the idea behind that restaurant and not to mention we opened this business with a another like another couple Paco and Erica and you know Paco and Erica are like basically like my siblings you know like these these guys like I've known Erica since I was 13 years old so she's seen everything and now you know Paco her husband's also like you know he's our photographer as well for Cody Ma he's been our photographer he's been you know the photographer of like everything you know since I was like 22 like at the food truck and like so this dude has known everything so they've been like the biggest supporters of my career and the biggest supporters and and and and they true believers you know and and when we decided to open this I was like I told Sophia I was like we would be very cool to open this with homies you know because it's gonna so we decided to you know they were they were down for it so we would decided to open with them and

46:39Fidel Caballero:you found this great spot you found this lease and it opens and I mean seems like Brooklyn is into your burritos.

46:47Matt:Yeah, I mean, tortillas need a, you know, to serve a seat at the table, you know? Like, good flour tortillas deserve to be right next to, you know, sourdough loaves and, you know. Like it. You know, and it's, you know, we decided to do a tortilleria for that reason, to get people what they want. And to, you know, there was, that, you know, flour tortillas were so bastardized and they were so made fun of for so many years, especially in the 90s. It was like, you know, like flour tortillas are not Mexican food. And I disagree. You know, I grew up like that. And I grew up like where I come from, like there's a bunch of like Mennonites and a lot of wheat and a lot of like cheese and a lot of dairy.

47:23Matt:And sometimes people are like, is this Mexican? I'm like, yeah, it's my Mexico.

47:26Fidel Caballero:Yeah.

47:26Matt:You know, it's not it's not Mexico, Cedar, Oaxaca that everybody just talks about. Yeah. This is this is the north side of it. And like the north is very cool. Oh, it's beyond cool. So like that we should we should we deserve a seat at the table. And that's something that I love to say because now everybody's all about the burritos and the tortillas. And I'm like, yeah, I've been telling you for years. Yeah.

47:47Fidel Caballero:And, of course, the cinnamon rolls and the pastry side. What's the story there? Because I feel like, yes, you can get your burritos and you can buy the tortillas and that's always going to be there. But, like, this pastry side, too, is, like, hopping. It's phenomenal.

48:00Matt:Yeah. And we decided to also team up with our old pastry chef from Corima.

48:05Fidel Caballero:Oh, cool. That's right.

48:06Matt:His name is Eric Rocha, and he's, like, one of the most talented. I went to culinary school with this guy. We both went to Martin Berazategui. So we've been in our lives for quite a while. And we decided to just team up with him. And he makes great pastries. And he thinks just like I think on savory. He thinks on the sweet side. And that's why that cinnamon roll is addicting.

48:26Fidel Caballero:What's the method there? Because I feel like it's a little original. We steam them. Yeah. Yeah, we steam them.

48:32Matt:So that's why they're still like, you know, they're not dense. They're like very fluffy. And they're like not dry. also the you know the frosting on top of it it's like made with cream cheese instead of just like with like powdered sugar so it's like so it's so delicious

48:48Fidel Caballero:I mean that's my Midwest roots there cream cheese frosting on cinnamon roll that's like Michigan style exactly so it's like

48:56Matt:cool and he's so talented and yeah he's great he's great

48:59Fidel Caballero:how many how many realtors slash building owners have called you since you opened to open another Vato I mean

49:05Matt:a lot yeah

49:08Fidel Caballero:Yes, I would imagine. I mean, are you – it's scalable, right? You could scale this.

49:12Matt:Yeah, we can. We can. You know, again, it's been two months. I know. It's crazy. It's crazy. And we – like the amount of success. Like we're so like – you know, like Park Sloan like hugged us. Yeah. And so cool. Sometimes there's people that come from like Jersey and they're like, we're here like to try your burritos. I'm like, okay. You know, this is awesome. You know, so that's where we – you know, we're trying to take it slowly because like first we were selling out of everything at 11. You know, and then we're selling out of like burritos. and now we're not selling out of burritos. And then we're selling out of like, you know, like tortilla packs.

49:41Matt:Now we're not, you know, and we're just selling out of pastries. Now we're not. So now like we cracked the code on how to make it more sustainable and like actually make it happen. Which is good after two months.

49:50Fidel Caballero:I mean, sometimes it takes a year to figure that out. A hundred percent. And yes, it is scalable and, you know. So you are looking at other spaces?

50:00Matt:No, no, no, not yet.

50:02Fidel Caballero:I mean, it's crazy.

50:03Matt:Not yet. Yeah, you know, like we're still trying to get our, you know, we want to get our ducks in a row first. You don't want to be that like, hey, wonders, that we do great and then we can sustain it. Yeah, sure. So that's why we're like, let's take a breather. Let's figure out, let's let it run for a little bit. See what we, just make this perfect. Not perfect, but nearly as perfect as we can and make it great and then we can start.

50:29Fidel Caballero:Yeah, these are very annoying questions I'm asking. I'm sorry. They're not annoying. you know like it's uh we i just think like a lot of the the brooklyn folks listening have tried your burrito and they've waited in line for a long time and i know and i you know so we're like

50:43Matt:how can we crank them out a little faster so you know like all these we want to like start figuring out those things before we start like well let's get two more locations you know yeah but there is some plans on like you know there's some some plans on doing you know you know bigger bigger things.

50:57Fidel Caballero:What does 26 look like for you? Are you Karima, Vato, or Roland? Are you just keeping it going? We're keeping it going

51:05Matt:and we're opening a bar.

51:07Fidel Caballero:Okay. There we go. That makes sense in the business model of your group. What's the story of the bar?

51:13Matt:The bar is called Barachucho. Chucho has like two meanings. Chucho means like a dog. But it also means chucho. it's this drink that we drink in northern Mexico in Juarez to be you know and it's uh made out of like this uh this root uh that it's kind of like fermented with like sotol and like mezcal yeah it's like so strong and like it's one of those things that when you were young like that was all you could afford so like that was like our beer in a shot over there which was like a carta blanca and a shot of chucho it was so disgusting but you know like it's so bad you know But, like, it kind of, you know, it's a cool story.

51:55Matt:So we decided to, you know, call it Chucho, and it's super cool. We're doing it with our old GM, Vince, that, you know, helped us open Korima and all that, you know. And we're doing it also with one of our homies, Jesse. Jesse, so, you know. Where is it at? What's the location? It is two blocks away from Korima.

52:17Fidel Caballero:Okay.

52:18Matt:Yeah, so it's cool. it's on like two bridges side you know it's close to like Cellar you know so there's things in like Mr. Fong's and you know we're across the street from Fong's

52:26Fidel Caballero:when are you opening?

52:27Matt:we are opening in the spring

52:30Fidel Caballero:excellent that's a great addition you'll have so tall and yeah and it's gonna be

52:34Matt:you know it's gonna be you know not super divey but it's gonna have that you know there's a lot of people that ask to have a drink after like Korima you know when we close Korima and I know it was just nature you know like nature of the beast that it was like i think now we need a bar you know so it makes perfect and it's crazy because it was like we you know sofia and i were talking thinking about like a bar and then elise just came to our hands and i was like here's this like almost ready to open bar and we're

53:02Fidel Caballero:like okay i guess we can do it is there gonna be food there there is oh okay what do you think what are you thinking for spring right now from menu there's only gonna be one thing on the menu yeah we're gonna serve one taco that's okay and that's it you know like because we didn't want to

53:19Matt:get into like the food you know like we didn't want to make it feel like a sit-down thing with like you know like we were like what we also did it out of like industry like for all these industry guys that like get out of like work and and have the stuff that you eat as you know it's either like fast food or like just like you know but yeah sandwich you were like what can we keep open until like late night people can come and have a beer and actually have like tacos you know

53:46Fidel Caballero:it's like a taco truck you'll have like one taco that you're known for like daily taco may rotate a bit

53:53Matt:that's what we want we just want one taco that people can have and like sit and have tacos and have beers and you know and then call it a night you know but do you do vampiro maybe

54:01Fidel Caballero:yeah I don't want to New York doesn't have vampiros the way LA does yeah I know we're

54:07Matt:thinking about vampiros too we're thinking about all these things and you know but we are we're going to be able to do either a taco or a gringa. I'm sure you know what a gringa is. Yeah, sure. So we're going to do it with the vato tortillas, obviously. Of course. You know, and yeah, we're just super excited. You know, we're going to start off with a carne asada taco.

54:23Fidel Caballero:Yeah, of course.

54:24Matt:You know, carne asada taco, you know, where I'm from, we eat like tacos, you know, we eat carne asada tacos with flour tortillas, so we're going to do the same, you know, and just leave it at that.

54:33Fidel Caballero:I mean, for you listeners who continue to spread the myth that New York does not have good tacos, you know what with Santos with with all the spots in Brooklyn and Queens and now with a taco at this new bar I mean you guys all need to like recognize that New York has great tacos yeah

54:53Matt:great Mexican food great it's always been there people don't like to you know Corona's always there and Corona has great Corona is always there great it's been there for years and it's just you know you know it doesn't get the rev it you know it should and then there's Ramirez We can't forget about Ramirez. Yeah, I mean, they're the godfathers of like, carnitas ramirez, you're kidding?

55:13Fidel Caballero:Oh my gosh, so good. And then Santos. Have you had this quesadilla? No, I haven't.

55:17Matt:The brain quesadilla? I haven't. Well, it's probably one of my favorite snacks. This episode is brought to you by Peloton.

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56:17Matt:I'm R.J. Decker, a private investigator uncovering the Sunshine State's darkest secrets. Tuesdays, it's the premiere of ABC's hottest new crime show.

56:27Fidel Caballero:R.J. freaking Decker as I live and breathe. He's a private eye. It's not a standard murder. It's someone bigger. And a public mass.

56:35Matt:Trying to get some back to prison today? You go to prison one time and suddenly it's all the jokes. R.J. Decker. Series premiere. Tuesdays on ABC and stream on Hulu.

56:47Fidel Caballero:On this is Tastes, we discuss about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid-fire fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? The best fruit. Babaya. Oh, nice. The worst vegetable.

56:58Matt:Carrot. Why? So sweet. You know, it kind of like whenever you put something with carrots, it's just everything tastes like carrot.

57:05Fidel Caballero:What is your typical breakfast? It depends, but sometimes it's coffee and cigarettes.

57:11Matt:Or, I mean, just like I go to Vato almost every day. So like burritos are always like, you know.

57:17Fidel Caballero:You gotta grab one. It's quality. Yeah, yeah, exactly. What is your favorite dessert? Favorite dessert.

57:25Matt:Oh, that one's hard. I don't know. chamoyadas? Do you know what a chamoyada is? No. No? So it's kind of like a granita made out of chamoy. You know? Usually they also do like mango sorbet underneath. We actually have one at Corima.

57:39Fidel Caballero:Oh, that sounds beautiful. Yeah.

57:41Matt:It's like a mango like sorbet underneath. And then which is like granita made out of chamoy.

57:45Fidel Caballero:A chamoy is so good. Oh, when you can get it right. A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead.

57:50Matt:We talked about it earlier. We talked about it. Yeah. Relay. Relay is the best restaurant in the world.

57:54Fidel Caballero:Yeah. And great cookbook too. Absolutely. That cookbook is very special. Absolutely. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food? Shanghai. Yeah.

58:04Matt:Yeah, man. I really miss the food there. You know, it's so, so good. Have you been back since you left? Once. Yeah. Once, yeah, once. You know, it's still super special. I mean, that or like, you know, obviously like Tokyo is also, like, that's where it's at.

58:17Fidel Caballero:Last one, your favorite sandwich?

58:22Matt:I mean, I have to go with the Mexican one. You know, torta de milanesa is like the best, you know? It has to be beef, though. Pound it out, beef. Panadale beef, you know, it's like fried and, you know, like, yeah, with avocado, a bunch of avocado.

58:33Fidel Caballero:Tell me about what's the difference between like an Italian style and this Mexican style with the breading and the batter. Is it slightly different?

58:41Matt:A little different, you know. It's mainly like flour.

58:47Fidel Caballero:Yeah.

58:48Matt:You know, it's very little bit. There's still a little breadcrumbs, but it's very little breadcrumbs.

58:51Fidel Caballero:Mostly just flour, pounded beef. Yeah, pounded beef. I've had that. It's a great sandwich.

58:55Matt:It's awesome. You know, and also like with like, you know, like cheese, like casillo or like Oaxacan cheese, you know, casillo. It's like so good. It's like melted and nice. It's also like very fresh vegetables on top of it. You know, sometimes they put like ruda or like they put different herbs on it. And it's so good. It's so good. Now I want one.

59:16Fidel Caballero:Fidel, man, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for joining us to taste.

59:19Matt:Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.

59:25Fidel Caballero:This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skrzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.

1:00:23Fidel Caballero:to keep you going without slowing you down. So put that fork down. Try the new wraps today in app or at order.sweetgreen.com. Available at participating locations only.