726: Building a Modern Jewish Deli with Edith's Elyssa Heller 

9:19Elyssa Heller:I didn't even know. Like when I moved there, I'd never been to Canada. I didn't know that there were Jews there. I didn't even know that. I remember specifically asking my roommate. I was like, you guys listen to country music here? And she's like, what are you talking about? I'm like, what are you? I'm like, I thought that was like a uniquely American thing. You know.

9:43Gráinne O'Hare:What did you think it was? Like Joni Mitchell and Sloan? I had no clue.

9:46Elyssa Heller:I just was totally clueless. Americans don't really think much of Canada in general. But back when I had to have like a calling card and like a Skype account to contact my family, they thought of Canada even less. But it was a huge it was the first time I broadened my horizons and met people that were Jews that had totally different background and experience and myself different food. It was the first time I really broadened my horizons and experienced another country. I mean, it was it was a transformational, incredible experience going to school there.

10:23Gráinne O'Hare:And so like European as well. Yeah. And inspired by totally not America.

10:28Elyssa Heller:It was like, oh, you guys have rugby like what? I wouldn't even know. It's just totally culturally different. But very, I think the wonderful thing besides the food takeaways from Canada, they are very much focused on their society, their community, their neighbors in a way that we're not really growing up with here. And it definitely informed my sense of like contributing positively to our community.

11:01Gráinne O'Hare:You mentioned moving to New York to work at Dillon's Candy Bar. I love this for you that you were crushing girls and you're like, I want to go work for the queen. You work not as a chef, but you work in like the buying merchandising world.

11:16Elyssa Heller:Yeah. What's that like? It was the best. My first job was at my like local candy store in Highland Park, Illinois. It's still there. It's called Goodies. Oh, cool.

11:28Gráinne O'Hare:Is that where you're from? Highland Park? Yeah. HHS?

11:30Elyssa Heller:Yeah. And I just loved it. I worked with like all these bubbies, like these grandmas. Yeah. I don't know. We made like shiva baskets. Like it wasn't that it was like this fast paced fun thing. I just loved being behind the counter and talking to people. And like I loved candy. I just it's a great it makes people feel good.

11:51Gráinne O'Hare:Yeah.

11:53Elyssa Heller:And I got a job working at the Sweets and Snacks Expo, helping this woman who used to have like her own bubble gum and licorice company. And she would put it in a tube. It was like a yard.

12:05Gráinne O'Hare:No way.

12:06Elyssa Heller:It was like a yard or a foot of bubble gum and licorice.

12:08Gráinne O'Hare:Like in a clear tube. In a clear tube. I love that. And it was very random, but they bought it at Dylan's Candy Bar.

12:15Elyssa Heller:Yeah. And when I was helping her run this expo and just like, I don't know, doing whatever, breaking down her booth and helping pass out samples, whatever you do at a trade show. The buyers from Dylan's Candy Bar came over and Dylan was there and I like went up to her and I was like, my name's Alyssa. I'm going to work for you. And they gave me an internship. And then I literally, I worked as an intern unpaid for a few weeks in the summer. And then I just like harassed them. I was like, hi, I'm going to continue to work here. Like I want a job. I sent them emails like, I don't know, probably every month for my senior year of college until they're like, okay, you can work here.

12:58Gráinne O'Hare:What do you learn working on the buying side at a candy shop essentially, but like more like a brand too, like the brand course. And you see that a lot at Edith, just like this understanding of brand and messaging. It's so strong.

13:13Elyssa Heller:Thanks. Yeah. I worked there in 2011. Their entire – the team at that point had come from FAO Schwartz, which was, I mean, the start and – it was like the beginning and the end of experience -based retail. and you just they they were like one of the first ones outside of like Auntie Anne's pretzels and like Fannie Mae cookies to like pump the smell of sugar in the air and they blasted music and they put candy in the floors and like they really were able to sell you something that cost 50 cents for$12 a pound. And it was incredible. And it was the first time I got a chance to see a how like a retail setting really made people feel like you could sell an experience, not just a product, and nobody does it better, really.

14:17And then you understand people's purchasing

14:20Elyssa Heller:behaviors and what they gravitate towards too. And you kind of understand that in a land like New York City where I could go across the street to Dwayne Reed and buy a box of Swedish fish that's like a movie theater size for a dollar or two dollars, why everybody's going to Dylan's Candy Bar and paying five times the price for the exact same thing.

14:42Gráinne O'Hare:Is it the wax-coded bags? I mean, is that what, like why? Like the brand, like why do people do it? What is the, like, what thing? It depends.

14:48Elyssa Heller:I think it's like, you know, they want to be it's everything from like being able to carry around the shopping bag to, you know, just it's it's kind of like selling that lifestyle piece. I think every celebrity was having their kids birthday party there. You know, we were blasting like Justin Bieber. It was like a real like everybody was wearing their juicy pants and their Uggs and walking around. And it was really like it was kind of like a lifestyle movement at the time.

15:18Gráinne O'Hare:It was. And really, it's like early influencer marketing, right, from Dylan.

15:23Elyssa Heller:Yeah. I mean, really, really smart.

15:25Gráinne O'Hare:Really smart stuff.

15:27Elyssa Heller:Nobody at the time, like if I had a candy company, like I'm not walking around with like a little baby tee wearing the brand. But like every single girl had it at the time.

15:36Gráinne O'Hare:Yeah. It's a cool story. So, yeah. This episode is brought to you by Masterclass. You know how on the show, we're always talking to people who've spent decades obsessing over one thing, whether it's modern Korean food, new expressions of the Jewish deli, or the perfect Vampiro taco in South LA. That depth of knowledge is the thing I find endlessly fascinating. And honestly, it's a big part of why I'm into Masterclass. There are classes taught by some of the best chefs, writers, and thinkers in the world. People who've put in the work. And the lessons are short enough that I can actually fit them in.

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17:08Elyssa Heller:Follow the Priceline app or visit Priceline.com and book your next trip today.

17:12Gráinne O'Hare:Go to your happy price. Priceline. You're there, but you're also thinking beyond selling candy because you're thinking your love of food is connecting with possibly love of retail and merchandising. What brings you to the pop-up, the bagel pop-up at PolyG? Yeah.

17:29Elyssa Heller:Well, after Dylan's, I spent 10 years of my career doing a lot of different new product development, food manufacturing. I landed at Momofuku and they were really growing and wanted to start consumer products. That was a pivotal time in their growth as a company. I worked on the milk bar side where they were really trying to change and move away from their retail footprint and kind of expand into kind of this omni-channel place where they could ship cakes.

18:00Gráinne O'Hare:Getting that corn cookie to 50 states and territories.

18:03Elyssa Heller:Yeah. They're like, we need to make a million of these and ship them all across the country. And yeah, so they were kind of transitioning that way, which was a really interesting time to be a part of that company. And then I left and I went through a lot of life changes. I had an old sports injury. I needed an ACL revision. got that done I was married I was on my way to physical therapy I slipped on black ice and I broke my kneecap oh my goodness on top of it yeah so it was this like really compounding injury I couldn't walk for months and after recovering from that it also kind of expedited the end of my marriage and I was like you know I just like laid in a bed for six months I'm miserable I like left my husband I'm like I just need to be in a place that makes me happy and I always loved my job and I was like you know why not this might just be the time for me to figure out where I want to spend my time and if I want to just be in a place that I enjoy where would that be?

19:24Elyssa Heller:and that was at the Jewish deli I was like whatever if I could just have my cup of coffee and sit there, I think that that's just where I would choose to spend my time. And the pop-up kind of just worked backwards from, hey, where do I want to spend my time?

19:41Gráinne O'Hare:Tell me about the love of the Jewish deli and what, you know, connected you to that, the culture, the food, the ambiance, the bad coffee, or maybe the good coffee. Good coffee. Good coffee, okay.

19:54Elyssa Heller:Um, I don't, you know, it just was, maybe it's just the place that like was where you went. I don't know. It was kind of the place where you went for anything. Like someone died. Yeah. You went there. Someone was born. You went there. You had a birthday. You went there. Um, I always love the food. Um, and I don't know. I think it's just that soulfulness, that place that's like really a comfortable place in your community that like I don't know just yeah it's hits different um and it connects with your with Jewish culture yeah too like then which is important to you I mean yeah and um I I'll like never forget when my like when my bubby like snuck me my first sip of coffee when I was little she's like this you can have it it's decaf don't worry um postum senka yeah I was like but it's just um I don't know.

20:49Elyssa Heller:It just is such a big part of Jewish culture. And I think it just really resonated. It really hit me when a lot of the places started closing that I love. And I read a book. There's a couple of great books about saving the Jewish deli and why they go out of business. And I must have read every single one of them before I started Edith's. And, yeah, I was it was more of just like a mission to make a place that like I wanted to go to every day. but yeah there's just something that deeply connects me to it I was sitting at a dinner with someone who bought Murray's sturgeon shop on the Upper West Side which is like a much lesser known smoked fish shop in New York and I like went up to him and I was like hi I have to meet you like I know that you just bought Murray's yeah and he's like hi like of course I know Edith's and I was like okay that's great like I need to know why you decided to buy this business because it clearly is not like making a million bucks a year.

21:52Elyssa Heller:But there's definitely something that ties you to that type of food if you grow up Jewish.

21:57Gráinne O'Hare:Yeah. Yeah. And the response was just like, I wanted to own that business.

22:01Elyssa Heller:Yeah. I mean, it was similar. I think he had met the owner, Ira, and just kind of had been a customer, grew up going there, heard that it was maybe closing, and was like, oh, no, we can't lose this.

22:12Gráinne O'Hare:I love that. Yeah. That instinct. I haven't been up there. I know the space, but I need to go check it out with the new ownership.

22:18Elyssa Heller:It's, I think, yeah. I mean, it's really incredible. I mean, it's kind of the same thing. It's like stuck in time. It's gorgeous. They have all the hand-painted signs. They have, you know, a telephone.

22:31Gráinne O'Hare:So you launched the first location in Brooklyn, in Wilhelmsburg. And you want to build your version of a deli or a sandwich counter. But you want to reach across the Jewish diaspora. It's not just Ashkenazi. It feels going to your restaurants, it feels like that is an important mission for you. Yeah. When you're as an operator, that Jewish cuisine is not one thing.

22:55Elyssa Heller:Yeah. I mean, I grew up with my version of it in Chicago is like very white and brown. And like my family's Eastern European. My mom's side's Polish, you know, and a little bit like Romanian. um my dad's side's russian ukrainian german um for the entire mix of ashkenazi got them all um but my mom would like make me noodles and cottage cheese growing up and like i didn't even i don't know that was just like a default and then i like would go to school like college and i was like oh i'm eating noodles and cottage cheese and they're like what the hell are you doing like that's so weird and i was like is it or is it just i don't know ashkenazi food but um yeah i don't know know i just never felt like i could eat it all the time because it's like so heavy and white and brown yeah and when i moved to canada i met one of my roommates she was from montreal her family is jewish like totally different food traditions from us in chicago and then when i moved to new york um so my my one of my first friends that i made here was from great neck and um totally different food that is from like the Persian Jewish community.

24:08Gráinne O'Hare:Yeah, totally.

24:09Elyssa Heller:And I'm like, this is, I'm like, how are we missing out on this? I was like, it's bright, it's sour, it's got a totally different feel, and it's still Jewish. I was like, that's crazy. I mean, growing up, I didn't really realize there were like multiple types of Jews. I don't know, They teach you a very linear way of thinking. And I don't know. I just I was really in a box. I just I hadn't met anybody that wasn't like myself. Yeah. All this stuff on TV that you see about Jews is like New York, Chicago. I mean, it's really kind of one note. I mean, a lot of it's true. I love it affectionately. But you just don't really think about other people's experiences.

24:53Elyssa Heller:And when I could taste their food and I was like, oh, this is life changing. We have to tell the full story.

25:00Gráinne O'Hare:I love that. So let's talk about the menu at Edith's and how you do express the diaspora across all over the world. And we will get to the coffee question, but I want to just first talk about some of the menu items that you're proud of. And maybe for our listeners who haven't been because you've got to go, but maybe you haven't been to New York.

25:19Elyssa Heller:Yeah.

25:19Gráinne O'Hare:Give us a little preview.

25:21Elyssa Heller:Well, I love Americana. I am deeply in love with everything Americana. And a lot of that is kind of like the base for food at Edith. So we do a lot of American classics, I would say. But yeah, everything has kind of like a Jewish twist to it. Just like an injection of fun or flavor. And innovation, I'll say, too. Yeah, yeah.

25:51Gráinne O'Hare:I mean, you can do fun riffs, but then you have like also culinary innovation, like cutting up latkes and calling them like whatever. Takas. Takas. And they're like the way, like it's like the best part of the latkes when you cut them up and fry them on all sides.

26:06Elyssa Heller:Yeah, like the little crisp. I mean, it's like a brownie. It's like everybody likes the edges. You have like the centerpieces. But it makes it more texturally interesting if you get some crispy pieces and some centerpieces. And I don't know, it just makes it poppable and fun. A lot of Jewish food is really serious. It's religiously based. You know, there's lots of restrictions and there's lots of rules. And I think Edith does a really fun job of making things really approachable and kind of like, I don't know, less serious.

26:38Gráinne O'Hare:Give us more examples.

26:40Elyssa Heller:Well, the latkes are a good example. I think that's a really good one where we still try to honor like what a latke is. A latke is not a hash brown. No. I was like, it's made with a batter. Yeah. And it has to be fried. Those are like the two defining characteristics of a latke. Batter, fried. So when we were having a hard time making a lot of them because they go on all of our sandwiches, their sides. we sell thousands and thousands of pounds a week of latkes um damn yeah it's a lot that's a lot and i'm like we can't shape them round anymore like it's too wasteful i came from a food manufacturing background so i'm like we have to figure out a way to like honor its identity and like respect its standard of identity which is a manufacturing term that we use to specifically define a characteristic, like define the characteristics of a product that ultimately make it what it is.

27:42Elyssa Heller:So I'm like, how can we respect its standard of identity and optimize it for production? And I realized in my research, it doesn't need to be round. So we made them square and we cut them in squares.

27:56Gráinne O'Hare:And you shrunk them down.

27:57Elyssa Heller:And then we were like, oh, somebody came up to me and everybody was like cutting up and like all my cooks were like cutting them up and eating them with all the sauces. And we didn't even have applesauce at the time because nobody, and then we added applesauce later. We just were eating them with ketchup, which I think is okay. Yeah, you co-signed to that.

28:18Gráinne O'Hare:And then I think it's fine.

28:19Elyssa Heller:I think it's fine. We do both now. We let everybody choose their path.

28:24Gráinne O'Hare:Sour cream as well?

28:25Elyssa Heller:Yeah, we have sour cream. We have applesauce. We have ketchup. We do all, we have za 'atar ranch, personal favorite. Me too. Me too. Yeah, it's great.

28:33Gráinne O'Hare:Good call there. Yeah. I feel like I hadn't seen that before I went to Edith. Because, you know, Midwest, I'm from Michigan.

28:40Elyssa Heller:Gotta have a ranch.

28:41Gráinne O'Hare:But then Za 'atar, like, hello.

28:43Elyssa Heller:Yeah. No, it's so good. And, yeah, we decided that it would be fun. We always try to do things that are a little different. So I'm like, every other sandwich shop has potato chips. And I was like, what can we do? It's a little bit different, a little bit more fun. And then we started doing the tacos.

29:02Gráinne O'Hare:Yeah, yeah, it's very smart. So let's talk about the Ice Cafe Slushie. I like Solomanov's tahini milkshake down in Philly. Philly. Goldie's. Goldie's. Great. I mean, I think that's great. And I was like, this is the coolest thing in the Jewish diaspora doing a drink. And then I had yours. And I'm like, yours is slightly above that one's. They're both very good. I just, I really like it. Thanks.

29:30Elyssa Heller:Yeah, it's that one is a like the finest example of invention coming from just like resourcefulness and necessity. We started as a pop up that I like bankrolled on my credit cards because it was COVID and nobody would lend to me. And wow, I just couldn't afford we found like this tiny location in East Williamsburg. And it was really at that time. It was like, okay, if like, I lose my full time. time job could I pay this rent like what would I have to do if there needed to be a plan b and the shop was so small and like I didn't really have the money and I didn't know how to be a barista and I'm like I can't spend 25 grand on an espresso machine when I'm like I don't I was intimidated by it like everybody during COVID had a coffee window they're selling way more coffee than us yeah you can sell it at the i mean a latte is like 550 or whatever now they're like eight dollars but you know i'm like what can we do that's fun that feels unique when we were a pop-up we didn't really have to sell coffee because people would wait in the line they would wait with the coffee they would just get our food but now that i was signing a lease i had to be able to sell more than just a sandwich to make my rent.

30:53Elyssa Heller:So two days before we opened, I found a slushy machine just online. And I was like, oh, it's$2 ,500. I was like, this I can afford. And I was like, and I love going to the movie theater and getting like a whatever, my Coke slushies. And then I would get Sprite and I would mix it with stuff. And I was just, I loved the big giant frozen drinks always. And I remembered when I went to Israel, they had a frozen, they had the frozen, Yeah. And they had the frozen lemonade, the lemonana. And I was like, oh, we could do this. I'll like put coffee in one side and I'll have frozen lemonade in the other.

31:30Elyssa Heller:Yeah. And everyone's like, we don't have time for this. Like we're stressed. We're opening. Like I just, I was like, no, no, no, it's fine. Look, you just like plug it into a wall.

31:39Gráinne O'Hare:Yeah.

31:40Elyssa Heller:And like I kind of just pushed, like I pushed, forced, pushed, pushed. I pushed it on everybody. I was like, you just kind of had, yeah, push.

31:49Gráinne O'Hare:Yeah.

31:49Elyssa Heller:It kind of sounds Yiddish-y. It feels Yiddish-y.

31:52Gráinne O'Hare:Yeah, but it feels like it could be techie, too. Yeah, sure. Like, we're going to push something. Look, it's 26. Guys, we're going to push on the Slack channel. Like, we're pushing the code today.

32:00Elyssa Heller:I hear a new, like, Gen Z, I don't know, 6-7 slang every day. I can make up my own words. It's 2026. You just did it. It's great. Pushing it. But, yeah. And then it was kind of like one step after the next or the other. I was like, okay, we have five minutes to open. really like what are we gonna do let's throw coffee in there so we found coffee and then i was like okay well we need something to add like texture fat mouth feel whatever but nobody drinks milk in williamsburg i'm like i can't i can't have milk i'm like nobody's gonna drink that so we're like oat milk okay fine and then yeah we were just like it needs something else and we threw tahini because we were like, okay, like Middle Eastern peanut butter, like that works.

32:48Elyssa Heller:Damn. And it tasted really good.

32:50Gráinne O'Hare:You just ran to like a restaurant depot and just got these things and threw them in. Yeah.

32:53Elyssa Heller:We were just like, we had literally like a day to do it. And we were tasting it. It was freezing. It had this like nice lush texture. We're like, okay, this is great. And then it started separating. And my chef at the time was like, she was great. She was classically trained Michelin star Japanese chef that worked with me throughout COVID. And she was like, we can't serve this. And I'm like, why not? It looks kind of weird, but like it tastes great. It's kind of rad. And she was like, it's broken. It's like when a sauce breaks, like the fats separate. It's like technically a bad thing. And I was like, it's fine.

33:36Elyssa Heller:We don't have time. So like we're just going to leave it, see what happens. and that was it and like nobody I mean people liked it and they bought it we did the punch cards because I was like I wanted to incentivize more people to buy it and try it

33:51Gráinne O'Hare:you get one after ten or one after five eight eight okay fair

33:55Elyssa Heller:you know lucky yeah yeah there you go and yeah and then that summer we probably had it on the menu for three or four months and it was fine someone from the food network came in and was like can I take a video of that? And my cashier at the time was like, sure. And all of a sudden, the social media starts like blowing up. But everybody I log on, my cousins are texting me from Chicago being like, this is crazy. Like, did you see what happened? And we're getting like thousands of followers, like hours and days, like it went so viral. But all the comments were that everybody thought it looked disgusting.

34:34Gráinne O'Hare:No, no.

34:35Elyssa Heller:Oh, no. They're like, it looks like throw up, sand baby poop mustard like it look like whatever it was i called my parents i was like crying i'd sunk all my money into this i like this was my dream yeah we just opened the store i was trying to make ends meet anyway just because it's tough and my dad's like don't worry all press is good press and i'm like i don't think you understand the internet like they're saying it's disgusting um it didn't matter so people started coming in trying it they're like i tried the viral disgusting coffee drink from edith's and guess what it tastes great and i was like okay so then baby poop yeah so we rocked with it um and yeah it just has kind of taken on a life of its own

35:23Gráinne O'Hare:i mean i love the aesthetic obviously that is a big part of it visually took off. I think the separation is actually why it's so unique.

35:32Elyssa Heller:It's so great. The greater internet still thinks it looks disgusting. It helps my videos perform better.

35:39Gráinne O'Hare:Go to this and check it out and make your own call. I like it too because it's lighter than you think.

35:44Elyssa Heller:Yeah.

35:44Gráinne O'Hare:And you can have like a nice sandwich and have it and not feel like you're like double, like you're pressing your luck a little bit.

35:52Elyssa Heller:Yeah. And it's a great vehicle to be creative. It doesn't take someone who's trained on how to do latte art to make one yeah um and yeah it's that classic like bourdain comment of like if you're not creating controversy you know then what are you doing like i'd rather be controversial than you know kind of play it safe yeah and you're

36:15Gráinne O'Hare:but you're doing it with like with like an open heart you're not like trying to no we just like

36:20Elyssa Heller:leaned in yeah and like the product tastes great and people love it and now it's like not so crazy anymore because people have gotten used to how it looks and they like it and show it off.

36:31Gráinne O'Hare:So is there like a CPG moment with this product? Is there, like get it out of the shop and into like more places? Start a collab with 7-Eleven?

36:41Elyssa Heller:I wish. 7-Eleven if you're watching. Ninja. Ninja Creamy. Ninja Slushy. Call me.

36:49Gráinne O'Hare:Yeah, I mean, Dutch Bros. Yeah, I mean, it was crazy.

36:53Elyssa Heller:There was an article that Yelp came out with like over the summer that said searches of tahini coffee were up like 900 ,000 percent. And I was like, that's so cool. We created this, I don't know, category. I love it.

37:11Gráinne O'Hare:Coffee drinks. I love it. So you have the two locations now. Going well? Yeah. I mean, the rest are hard, but.

37:18Elyssa Heller:Yeah. This year was a fun year. That's good. It was, you know what, I needed it after four years of like really slugging it out and learning and growing and just like working really, really hard. And this year it was really fun. And we got to give our product to so many more people. Like having the, our West Village location has a sit-in counter. And it's what I like romanticized about. people get to eat our food like when it's fresh and hot and not coming out of a bag and it just changes the entire experience for people and um yeah it's been going great it's super fun

38:04Gráinne O'Hare:i am having the best and you work service in in the west village quite a bit you're working yeah

38:10Elyssa Heller:you'll see me in the kitchen yeah a lot bouncing around i don't know with a hammer sometimes i'm Like, you know, I kind of just do everything.

38:20Gráinne O'Hare:Those West Village spaces are quirky. I mean, what was in this former space? What was that?

38:25Elyssa Heller:It was an oyster bar of Mary's Fish Camp. They were there for a really long time, like 20 years.

38:31Gráinne O'Hare:That's what I thought. First, I thought it was Dutch Plains, or Ditch Plains, but it's...

38:35Elyssa Heller:Oh, yeah. No, it was...

38:37Gráinne O'Hare:It's Mary's Fish Camp. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, I had to dig up the floor the other day. Oh, fun. Yeah. What'd you find? Anything good?

38:45Elyssa Heller:We're moving our grease trap. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's like it's on top of the floor, removing it, level with the floor.

38:52Gráinne O'Hare:Did someone come from the city and just say, you got to do it?

38:54Elyssa Heller:No, I was just like, it's annoying. Yeah. Got it. It's always something.

38:59Gráinne O'Hare:It is always something.

39:00Elyssa Heller:Grease trap issues, yes.

39:01Gráinne O'Hare:We can get into the weeds. But in terms of expansion and taking the brand to Chicago, to other parts of Brooklyn, what do you think about expansion? How does that work in your brain? Yeah, I think when I worked for some of the larger companies, whether it was in consumer food and like kind of the CPG world products that sat on shelves, I mean, or my time at Milk Bar when they were going through rapid

39:34Elyssa Heller:expansion. It informs a lot of my decision making now, obviously. It's a little bit different having it be my own thing, my baby. But, yeah, we're growing. We're going to be. Okay. I can't share. Maybe I won't share too much. But, yeah, we are growing. We're going to be looking for a third location.

39:58Gráinne O'Hare:New York City or outside?

40:00Elyssa Heller:In New York City. Okay. Yeah. And, you know, we've gotten the chance to work with Delta Airlines, with Nordstrom's, with these incredible brands. And one of the things I think I got a lot of pushback on earlier on when I was trying to like bring Edith to life is they didn't think the concept really could resonate outside of New York City, which is fair for a lot of things. Just in general, a New York-based brand does not necessarily mean it is the most scalable, relevant concept for most of the country or the world. And I always just thought with how we balanced kind of these more interesting flavors, how we really leaned into like American classics, even like regional sandwich culture.

40:49Elyssa Heller:I think I always knew it had more potential than just being in New York City. And when we worked with some of these larger brands, we got to meet people, you know, who flew in the Delta hubs from, you know, and they're Michigan based or Ohio based or, I don't know, Colorado based. And they loved our product. And it just always was kind of like reaffirming that I'm like, OK, yeah, we do have if we can operationalize it and we can be consistent and we can execute day in and day out and provide increasingly better, more consistent, faster product and service. I was like, we can do it like we can.

41:29Elyssa Heller:I'm like, we can go anywhere.

41:31Gráinne O'Hare:I mean, you're savvy and you're not going to take that first check to put it in Tokyo, I feel. I'm just reading you now.

41:40Elyssa Heller:Yeah. I mean, you always have the opportunities that come along to make a quick buck. And every decision, especially when you're smaller, it matters so much. We had some opportunities to work with some of the biggest and best, most successful folks out there. every decision matters. But yeah, I think we're, I'm definitely in it for the long haul. Like I really see Edith's having a lot of potential, not just as a one-off restaurant, but as a brand. And yeah, I'm going to really stop at nothing to continue to grow it in a way that feels authentic. And I don't know, like it does justice to what we're doing.

42:23Gráinne O'Hare:Where did the idea of having a container of regional hot sauce packets come from? Because that shit is genius when I saw that I was like that is the coolest thing yeah um we for a while

42:34Elyssa Heller:like forgot that people have hot sauce with their bacon egg and cheese yeah sorry to the city of New York um and then I kind of like over corrected and was like oh wait we can't just have like franks yeah like we have to have everything and then it was just fun to watch people search the

42:52Gráinne O'Hare:box it's so fun how do you just order them online like how do you yeah all these we order them

42:57Elyssa Heller:online we try to find everything from like there's some like new fun korean like packets for ramen that we'll pour in there um you know we take the hot sauce interpretation very liberally so we people have come back to actually like donate hot sauce to our box they're like oh i ordered taco bell i have so many extra sauces like here's some hot taco sauce and we're like okay like it's not a book drive but like people interact with it in a really fun way and like hot sauce has a lot of i don't know people that just ride really hard for it and it's fun and creative and you can just try things it seems like a little thing but we try to do a lot of those very high touch little things to try to be competitive i mean you can go anywhere and buy a bacon egg and cheese that's like not Edith's and we're like okay what can we do to like make it a little bit more special a little bit more fun yeah I don't know contribute to like our personality as a brand

44:02Gráinne O'Hare:um so all these little things I think kind of add up cool when you want your spring break to feel

44:08Elyssa Heller:like and your kids pool day to feel like and your hotel bed to feel like Ooh, and room service to feel like... Because at Hilton, hospitality feels like...

44:25Gráinne O'Hare:Your cabana's ready. Would you like fresh towels?

44:27Elyssa Heller:It matters where you stay. Book now at Hilton.com. Hilton, for this day.

44:38Gráinne O'Hare:This episode is brought to you by Nespresso. Introducing VirtuoUp, the latest in a long line of innovation from Nespresso. It's innovation you can touch. scents, and taste in every single cup. With a three-second start, easy open lever, and dedicated brew-over-ice button, it's even easier to enjoy your coffee your way. Sip for yourself. Shop Virtuo up exclusively at nespresso.com. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. Break through the busiest time of year with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus, powered by Peloton IQ. With real-time guidance and endless ways to move, you can personalize your workouts and train with confidence, helping you reach your goals in less time.

45:21Gráinne O'Hare:Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push, and go. Explore the new Peloton Cross-Training Tread Plus at onepeloton.com. And this is Taste We As Guest about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready?

45:36Elyssa Heller:I'm ready.

45:37Gráinne O'Hare:Let's do it. Best fruit.

45:39Elyssa Heller:Best fruit, I think, is a peak season peach.

45:43Gráinne O'Hare:Love that answer. The worst vegetable.

45:46Elyssa Heller:Iceberg lettuce.

45:48Gráinne O'Hare:No place in your restaurants. No.

45:51Elyssa Heller:First of all, I went to LA recently, ate at some amazing sandwich shops. They weirdly all use iceberg lettuce. I was very confused. I was like, what's with the iceberg lettuce here? It was so weird. I don't like it. It's not my favorite. No way. Yeah.

46:09Gráinne O'Hare:They're doing that at Cookbook? Did you go to Cookbook? No. You didn't go to that one? Okay. I won't bring that up.

46:14Elyssa Heller:But I was like, I'm not into the iceberg lettuce. I was going to say tomato, but people would freak out if I said tomato.

46:20Gráinne O'Hare:We can revise it. I mean, like you—

46:23Elyssa Heller:I don't like raw tomato. We have like the best BLT ever at U.S., but I personally can't eat it. It's like a texture thing.

46:29Gráinne O'Hare:It's texture and not the seasonality of the tomato. And I get it.

46:33Elyssa Heller:I've tried to eat them at the best place. I just can't do it. It's a personal thing, but I think generally we need to stop iceberg lettuce. It's a problem.

46:42Gráinne O'Hare:It's a problem. What is your typical breakfast? I kind of, I just go with coffee now.

46:49Elyssa Heller:Yeah. If I'm hungover, I have a bacon, egg, and cheese at Edith's. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

46:55Gráinne O'Hare:But no.

46:56Elyssa Heller:Unless I do like my monthly Barney Greengrass.

46:58Gráinne O'Hare:Yeah.

46:59Elyssa Heller:Yeah. I'm kind of on the move. I walk my dog like five miles every morning and then I'm done. Ooh. And I'm like not hungry. I don't know.

47:07Gráinne O'Hare:Five miles with the dog. What are you doing on the walks?

47:10Elyssa Heller:I take all my phone calls. I talk to my parents. I talk to my brother, my friend. I like get someone will call me. One of my managers is having an issue. Just, yeah.

47:20Gráinne O'Hare:It's phone call time. Yeah. Food call time. The best dessert.

47:25Elyssa Heller:Best dessert is ice cream.

47:27Gráinne O'Hare:Mm-hmm.

47:28Elyssa Heller:I just, it's the best.

47:29Gráinne O'Hare:Like the end. Ice cream. Ice cream. How many milk bar cookies have you had in your life?

47:36Elyssa Heller:A lot. They're a little sweet for me, I have to say. I'm not a huge fan of like the super sweet I will say I also think that the best dessert is breakfast like generally like nobody hates pancakes for dessert like nobody hates on a waffle for dessert and I think that that's overlooked

47:55Gráinne O'Hare:we kind of forget that you are actually eating dessert for breakfast when you're going with those choices and it's a wonderful way to start the day

48:02Elyssa Heller:it's perfect

48:03Gráinne O'Hare:a restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead

48:07Elyssa Heller:my childhood jewish deli it's called barnum and bagel it's in skokie illinois um there was a time where clowns and circuses were really cool and not creepy and barnum and bagel was a barnum and bailey themed jewish deli they had like these porcelain clowns hanging from oh i went oh you You bet. Yeah.

48:31Gráinne O'Hare:Oh, great. My grandma lived in Highland Park for like 15 years.

48:35Elyssa Heller:You know the magic of Barnum & Bagel. I definitely do. Yeah. So that's the one I would bring back. I found a menu and it's on the wall at Edith's. A Barnum & Bagel menu. It's framed.

48:45Gráinne O'Hare:Did that close in like the 2000s?

48:47Elyssa Heller:Yeah. It closed a long time ago.

48:49Gráinne O'Hare:Or 90s maybe I remember. Yeah. Yeah.

48:50Elyssa Heller:Yeah. Yeah. I wish I knew better. Like at the time I would have bought stuff that they auctioned off. But who knew? Who knew? It would come full circle.

48:59Gráinne O'Hare:They used to go to the bagel too.

49:00Elyssa Heller:Yeah, the bagel's good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mall. They have, like, the big, like, assortment of all the, like, dried fruits and chocolate pretzels and candy and, like, that was amazing.

49:11Gráinne O'Hare:I love that wrinkle.

49:12Elyssa Heller:Yeah.

49:13Gráinne O'Hare:For the Jewish deli to have the bulk. The candy counter. The candy counter and the bulk.

49:17Elyssa Heller:It all ties together.

49:18Gráinne O'Hare:Yeah, it does. It's like your life is, it's all coming together. Yeah. Favorite city outside America to visit for food?

49:28Elyssa Heller:um i i don't know i loved paris so i mean everything's just so good yeah i also love a city where like you don't have to eat a vegetable it's like similar and like close to my heart um when i first when i quit dylan's candy bar i went backpacking and i went to um mainland china and hong kong and thailand for a while and like all of those flavors were just

49:56Gráinne O'Hare:like insane yeah yeah last one big one your favorite sandwich my favorite sandwich um

50:05Elyssa Heller:recently i had for the first time i went to langer's and i had the sandwich it was in the

50:12Gráinne O'Hare:40s it was like 40 something i think the 40s are the ones i was like in it was um well i think the

50:17Elyssa Heller:classic one is like the 36 or something yeah close enough yeah it was i eat a lot of sandwiches it's my profession this was one of the best sandwiches I've ever had it was perfect I love a Chicago style hot dog another perfect sandwich our Chicago style everything bagel my love letter to the Chicago style hot dog there's also a great sandwich I don't know I love regional sandwiches I don't know I can't not go home and like have a really hot wet spicy beef like it's just so good yeah it's so good yeah but i i really i'd wanted to go to langers for a really long time um it was the best sandwich

51:08Gráinne O'Hare:ever funny i went like two years ago for the first time i had a similar impression i was like i have been sleeping on this amazing restaurant forever it was so good i'm like i went to every hip cool

51:20Elyssa Heller:the courage big i went to everything i was like by far the best thing i ate there was this langer

51:26Gráinne O'Hare:sandwich yeah by far i love that yeah man elissa this has been so much fun thank you so much for joining us thanks for having me grania o 'hare welcome to this is taste so great to speak with you thank you so much for having me well we don't talk to a lot of novelists on the show though So when we read a book that we connect with, we like to see if we can make this connection happen. And you've been nice enough to join us. I love Thirst Trap. It's really, really special. So let's talk about food growing up in Belfast. What is the food like of your youth? What's on the table? And what's dining out like?

52:07Gráinne O'Hare:I think whenever I was younger, I was a very picky eater. So I asked my mom about this when I was an adult. I was like, why did you never put your foot down more about me being such a fussy eater? I didn't like wet food. I didn't like anything sloppy. I had a very dry beige taste. And I think she tried her best to kind of keep me as healthy as she could. But I just I was very, very temperamental in the diet department. And I was like, why didn't you force me to just eat what you put in the table? and she was like I wanted to choose my battles I knew there was probably going to be other stuff we were going to argue about and I didn't want to argue with you about food so um I think when I was younger I did have very very beige tastes uh which have as a result of I guess initially peer pressure as an adult and just not wanting to look to be embarrassed looking for like the closest thing to a chicken nugget on a menu the whole time um I think my my tastes broadened and my palate definitely improved um but yeah I was I was very fussy just a lot of snacks um yeah a lot of toast yeah a lot of toast what what is traditional Irish food then like I mean what are we what are we for our listeners it's very fascinating like I think we have our ideas about what the cuisine is But I think it's always through the lens of like Irish immigrants to America and of course, like St.

53:43Gráinne O'Hare:Patrick's Day holidays and all that stuff. But I'm sure it's very different. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think like growing up, definitely a lot of maybe traditionally Irish food would be stuff that I wouldn't necessarily have wanted to eat. Like I wouldn't have been interested in, for instance, something like coddle or something like that, which is have you come across that? Please explain. I know the name, but that is it. Tell us about it. Yeah, well, I wouldn't even risk Googling it because I have never seen a picture of it that looks appealing to me. Not safe for work. It's in a not safe for work photo.

54:22Gráinne O'Hare:I sort of like stew and there would be like sliced sausages in there, carrots, like chopped potatoes. Yeah, probably some other things as well. I assume it's seasoned because even though it looks really, really bland. Ideally. Yeah, that would be the thing that I think wouldn't necessarily have appealed to me. And as an adult, still doesn't. Yeah, not hitting comment. Anything you like, though, as an adult that you call like traditional Northern Irish food? uh i think that a lot of the again a lot of the foods that i associate with back home are like snacks and cakes and stuff i think um potato crisps is is something and then i always i always like when people ask me for food recommendations i'm like go to this corner shop and get this kind of crisps they sell them i live in england now obviously they sell the crisps that i like in in the world foods aisle of my local supermarket.

55:23Gráinne O'Hare:So that's really handy to have. Nice. I guess soda bread is always going to be something that I come back to. Yeah, the most similar thing to it over here is probably Stotties, which is a great name. Yeah. Yeah, just very, very carby foods. Yeah. Very carb heavy. Yeah, yeah. For sustenance. What's the modern scene like in Belfast when you go back and dine out? What's it like? My friends and I will sort of, maybe because we're in our 30s now, and it's just not worth risking some food that we're going to hate. We do just have a few kind of staples that we'll go to. I love, I haven't been there in a while.

56:08Gráinne O'Hare:I'm assuming it still does food. Muriel's Gin Bar in Belfast is really good. It's like really quirky inside as well. there's like a washing line of bras hanging from the ceiling um which doesn't sound that appealing when you're having your dinner but um but no i i enjoy the food sounds funky yeah yeah lavery's pub would be another it's just like pub food there's always too much of it and you're you always are trying really hard to cram all of it in because you're like i'm gonna regret not finishing this later massive massive portions know that feeling um yeah i think yeah we went to a really nice there's a part of belfast called cathedral quarter that is very popular with tourists which is annoying because i like to go out there as well and i'm like i grew up here i'm not a tourist even though i don't live here anymore um but yeah we uh my friends and i went to a really nice tapas restaurant called two taps in cathedral quarter over christmas which was really lovely i really enjoyed that thinking about sorry i'm drifting i'm thinking about um honey chorizo now oh yeah i love that yeah that sounds great yeah yeah i think the the place that i always take people or recommend people go in belfast usually for breakfast although they do lunch and things like that too is Maggie Mays.

57:35Gráinne O'Hare:I think they've got a couple of different branches, but yeah, massive, massive fried breakfast. Yeah, I think just huge portions. I think it's maybe like the Irish mommy urge to be a feeder. Yeah, yeah. I love that. Well, you know, in the book, you, you know, you reference food and use food as a device. I mean, there's great scenes in restaurants and one of the characters works at a restaurant and there's also an eating disorder that's addressed. I think that's food related. You know, what makes a great food scene in fiction? I think I really love, you know, luscious descriptions of food. I think that's something that I definitely try and pull off if I'm writing about food and fiction but I think so much of it as well is is about the feelings I think there's like a hefty segment of their strap that I dedicate to a subject that's very close to my heart which is potatoes it's very cliche but but I'm honestly just very passionate about potatoes and the girls are going out to a restaurant for their group Christmas dinner and they're remembering the dinners they used to make together when their friend Lydia was alive um and they're thinking about how the potatoes at the restaurant are a massive disappointment um and this part of the book was inspired by Nora Ephron writing about the significance of potatoes and making potatoes in her um romantic relationships yeah there's like she says uh I I've made a lot of mistakes falling in love and regretted most of them but never the potatoes that went with them so I think that's something that I think I definitely thought about when I was writing uh that chapter that's about Christmas dinner but also I think it's a good thing to bear in mind generally because I think good food scenes are about the feelings and the shared memories uh and the experience uh whether it's cooking alone or cooking with people um as much as it about the food.

59:44Gráinne O'Hare:I really, really like that. And I think it really resonates these deep traditions around the holidays that Irish culture has. You know, I think that we don't miss, we have our traditions, but there's something about the like group hang that's so different in European culture, but also particularly in Irish culture that you write about. I mean, there's something about being very, it's not formal, but more organized around having a meal together. Do you feel that? I don't know. I mean, do you feel that there's a, there's like a tradition of that in your culture? I think, yeah, I mean, I definitely remember growing up and it being, I'm just remembering like my granny's landmark birthdays where my mom would have to make a huge meal for like 12 people who'd come around to our house to celebrate.

1:00:33Gráinne O'Hare:And yeah, thinking about like cooking Christmas dinners as well. I just find that so much of what I want to cook, it can be really difficult to adapt it for just cooking for one. It's kind of like, what, are you just going to boil however small number of potatoes that one person's going to eat? So I think it's just, if I'm cooking, I do want to be making big batches of stuff, like a massive roast chicken and a huge tray of potatoes. um i don't know how many times i said potatoes yeah it's recording but yeah i think so i think that goes hand in hand with um sharing food with people whether it's just two people eating like a massive amount or um a big group of people let me ask you when you write do you have any food traditions i don't know if i have any traditions i think what i eat when i'm writing depends entirely on how well it's going so if it's going really well then I will sit at my desk and either snack a lot or just have something that's really quick to make uh because I don't want to interrupt my flow whereas if I'm struggling I'll be like well it's it's lunchtime it's 11 a.m guess it's time to stop and make something extremely complex from scratch yes so I think um I probably eat a lot better when my writing's going very badly.

1:02:02Gráinne O'Hare:Yeah. Yeah. I totally know the feeling. I know that. So you just got to get up and just spend an hour in the kitchen. Yeah. It's very therapeutic. I love, you know, peeling and chopping. Yeah. Yeah. Coffee or tea? What are you doing? Do you have any rituals around that in your writing? I do drink a lot of coffee. I think I do the sort of, I maybe drink three a day and then there'll be a point around like four or five o 'clock in the evening or the early afternoon, late afternoon. Sorry. Yeah. There'll be a point in the late afternoon where I'll start to feel my energy flagging and I'll be like, I'll have another coffee that'll perk me up.

1:02:47Gráinne O'Hare:And it just does the exact opposite. It just completely saps my energy. and then i can't sleep until like 2 a.m yeah yeah that is that is the rule yeah you can't do that that fourth cup yeah um what's what's the setup what's your coffee setup i actually so i have a french press at the minute but um i recently i was like in the new year uh i was like i'm gonna invest in an espresso machine um which i've yet to try out but i it's feels like a luxury having in the house yeah um yeah so i think sometimes if i uh if i need a break in the middle of the day and i need to go out and kind of churn some thoughts around or get my energy levels up then i will go for a walk in the park near me and get a coffee on the way back uh there's a lot of very hipstery kind of coffee shops near where i live uh so it's like oh yeah that'll be you know 20 pounds for a thimble of a flat white oh we have those in new york as well yeah we certainly do um what's what's it like in uh in newcastle what's what's what's what's the scene like that i've never been i've always wanted to go it's a really cool city i think we just had twice a year um there's like a sort of dedicated restaurant week uh where all of the restaurants in town that are participating in it will put on like a sort of highlights menu of the stuff they usually do and it'll be like uh you'll pay this for two courses and this for three courses if you know and it'll be cheaper than it would be if you went not on restaurant week and it's quite a good opportunity um i think they do it january and august and it's it is a good opportunity to try out new places and not have to worry about you know spending money on something that you don't know if it's going to be good or not but i say that i think uh a couple of years ago my uh partner and i did we went to this seafood restaurant for restaurant week and we were like this the menu looks good we'll we'll try this out we've never been and they had run out of crab on the first day of restaurant week oh big mistake and the service was really slow so we were just like yeah maybe we should just stick to the places we know we like um so yeah i mean there's a restaurant i really like called black fryer's which is in kind of an old abbey building it's really cool and they do um yeah it's like these sort of grand stone arch ceilings um and it feels like you're kind of dining in a castle um and they do really nice oysters i i love anywhere in newcastle that does lindisfarne oysters oh yeah yeah big fan of oysters you i mean you see it in the novel i mean i love it it's obvious i should ask i should have clued in on that you you write about oysters in such a cool way oh thank you yeah yeah no i like that no yeah no i'm a big fan it's terrific uh well granny thank you so much this has been so much fun chatting with you um the the novel is thirst trap i'm linking to it in the show notes you should check it out i appreciate it thank you so much for having me this is taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar.

1:06:16Gráinne O'Hare:The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skrzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com And make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.

1:07:11Gráinne O'Hare:or less. Rest easy.

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