728: A Delicious Deep Dive Into Somali Food with Ifrah F. Ahmed

19:40Aliza A. Williams:It always kind of followed me home. And that was a lot to sort of like deal with on an emotional level. And food had always been sort of like my lifelong love. You know, even before I knew that I wanted to go to law school or, you know, that I was interested in human rights or anything like that, food was sort of like my original love. And I think, yeah, it just felt like a natural transition. It was something I had been thinking about for a long time. And it's not a super easy transition to make as like the eldest, you know, daughter of like an immigrant refugee family to go into like a creative field or creative pursuit.

20:17Aliza A. Williams:But I had a trip to Somalia with my mom in 2018. That was just like totally life changing and, you know, made me really want to just switch gears in my life once I came back to New York.

20:31Ifrah F. Ahmed:Yeah, I'm curious. You write about that trip in the book about how it was your first time going back to Somalia since you left as a child and you were kind of immersed back in this culture and this cuisine in a different kind of way. Were there any kind of meals or moments there that solidified your desire to be doing food in more of a full time way?

20:49Aliza A. Williams:Yeah, I mean, I think just sort of seeing like the vibrancy of the country and Mokdisho in particular where I was born and seeing just sort of like what was being done around like street food, for example, was super interesting. But I think for me, it was really about like the simplicity of kind of like everyday meals. And I don't like one thing that I wrote about that going home trip, you know, was just having a really simple bowl of like goat soup and like, you know, bread and just how that really tasted like sort of a revelation. Right. And so for me, it was both about like the energy of like the city and like the people and then also about just like the simplicity and like the quality of the food and the care put into the food.

21:41Aliza A. Williams:And yeah, just like more so that than like really specific, like standalone moments. And then also obviously like the incredible seafood, like, you know, in Somalia because it has the longest coastline in mainland Africa. So I spent my time eating a lot of seafood while I was there as well.

21:58Ifrah F. Ahmed:Yeah, I can imagine, you know, obviously you grew up eating a lot of Somali food at home. But to go back to Somalia and be having that same food, but being made with ingredients that are local to that place must have felt really interesting.

22:10Aliza A. Williams:Yeah, I mean, and it was delicious, right? Like, it's like you're eating the same dish, but it's completely different, right? And then also finding out about like sort of local variations on things that maybe are more common, like once you're in Somalia and less so once you're, you know, living abroad. Yeah, it's just it's like night and day kind of difference. It's almost like am I still eating the same cuisine, you know?

22:35Ifrah F. Ahmed:Yeah, I feel like one thing I really like about your book is the way that you talk about the way that food can evolve and be, you know, authentic to different people in different places. And I guess to take a step back, I'm wondering if you could speak to what is the idea behind your book and how long have you been kind of thinking about it or developing it?

22:52Aliza A. Williams:I have been thinking about this book as far back as like 2017, 2018, which was around the time that I really was heavily thinking about switching careers. But, you know, we're still doing a lot of kind of like legal work and sort of like working up the courage to transition. Right. um and yeah this book like it's so interesting that I knew that I wanted to do it before I hadn't even really done anything else um you know on like I hadn't launched milk and myrrh yet I hadn't um been doing like food writing like formally you know I've always kind of been a writer sort of like my whole life but I hadn't had anything um you know like published you know in the food industry, et cetera.

23:39Aliza A. Williams:But I was like sensing as I was coming up with the idea for the pop-up, like the pop-up in the book kind of came, you know, the ideas for both around the same time. And the more that I sort of like was developing the idea of like the pop-up and realizing, oh, there's like a real gap here in terms of, you know, like the availability and like knowledge of Somali cuisine on a wider scale, I was also realizing that there aren't really a lot of resources to work from in terms of like recipe development or even just trying to provide like culinary education, Somali culinary education for people that may not have heard of like Somali food or maybe don't know what it is like made up of.

24:22Aliza A. Williams:So yeah, I would say that they both sort of came at the same time and really sort of like from me realizing, you know, like in my own endeavors to try to create these things, I didn't even have a lot of resources to work from, like myself, beyond what I had grown up with or the few resources that were out there already. Yeah.

24:42Ifrah F. Ahmed:And that's something that you, you know, write about and have spoken about is the fact that Somali culture is this really beautiful, mostly oral tradition. And you're doing the work of writing things down. And that is one of the reasons that there is kind of not as much information previously available, right? Totally.

24:57Aliza A. Williams:Totally. Yeah. It's like, even with the recipe development. You know, like I think I once tweeted about how like for me and for I'm sure a lot of other people that come from oral sort of like culinary traditions, we're not just doing like recipe development work. Like we are wearing many hats and there are a lot of steps that we need to take before we can even get to the point of developing a recipe like our, you know, colleagues. And there's a lot of research that needs to be done that there are people to track down and talk to. It's not as easy as, you know, just like opening up a book or doing like a Google like search and finding the answers that you need.

25:36Aliza A. Williams:And so because of all that sort of like fact finding that we're doing, it's like, you know, you're an archivist, like you're a historian, like you're basically wearing all these, you're a researcher, you're doing all these different tasks to even get to the point where you can begin to start developing a recipe. Yeah.

25:54Ifrah F. Ahmed:And really in this book, you are an archivist, you are a researcher. The book starts with this history of Somalia that goes back to like, what is it, 9 CE, 7 CE. I was blown away. Like, what was that kind of research and reporting process like?

26:08Aliza A. Williams:The historical section was the most difficult part of this book, mostly because it's like, again, we're an oral culture, you know, and if things were documented or written down, a lot of it was also in like Italian university archives. For example, I don't speak Italian. You know, my mother speaks Italian. I don't speak Italian. So like even if the research or the sources existed, sometimes they're in a totally different language or they're being held by an institution that I didn't have access to. And so, or sometimes there are even, you know, like resources that are inaccurate. You know, I dealt with this a lot where I would find a source and then I would take it to one of my friends who have an academic background in this.

27:02Aliza A. Williams:And they would say, that's completely incorrect. And then I would have to go back and rewrite what I had written according to the more accurate information. And so it literally, the research part, I was pulling my hair out. I was like, this is so difficult. You know, it should be, you know, fairly straightforward and, you know, a fair world to just write about a history of a people. But there's so much to account for that, you know, like I don't have access to. And so a lot of the way that I was able to sort of like confirm this information was really relying on like my networks. You know, I've been chronically online since I was like 12 years old.

27:45Aliza A. Williams:And so I've built a network of Somali, like, creatives and academics globally that I have become friends with that, you know, are all sort of experts at something. And so if I needed to find a particular source, like, I would hit up, like, my friend Ibrahim, for example, who he's a poet and an academic and runs also an archive. And so he had access to these like really like niche sort of like sources and like Italian university archives. And so he would send me like like oral recordings of like Somali women from like a certain era talking about how to make a specific, you know, dish, for example.

28:25Aliza A. Williams:Or so that was more in the recipe development kind of like side. But then in terms of like the actual academic history, I have two friends who, you know, are also of my like online friends. And, you know, they're both professors, they're both Somali professors who got their PhDs in Somali history from Harvard. And so one of them, for example, sent me her dissertation. And I was able to, like, get a lot of sort of like, confirmation of what I had written that way. and so like leaning on the community as well you know and people who have the expertise and the academic background to sort of like corroborate like a lot of what I had been written that what I had written that was basically like the process in addition to you know like the regular sort of like books and online research and recordings and just talking to elders as well yeah I mean I really

29:19Ifrah F. Ahmed:I have to commend you on cultivating that community and using it for this book because it's so evident, the level of detail and research and care that went into that section. And I can see what it means for a Somali person to have that written down, but also for someone like myself who maybe isn't as familiar with the history and the culture to be able to read about the fact that Somalia was colonized by Italy. And that's why pasta is a big factor in the cuisine. Like these kinds of obviously nothing is happening in a vacuum and the history is what impacts the food in a lot of ways. I think it makes a lot of sense to lead off the cookbook that way.

29:52Aliza A. Williams:Yeah. And I actually, you know, like when I was thinking about this book, I actually wasn't sure that it was going to be a cookbook. Like I didn't know if this was just going to be like an academic, like culinary sort of like history or examination of like Somalia. and ultimately I decided that it needed to be a cookbook because through like my like pop-up my chefing work and then also like a lot of my recipe development work both at the times and you know at other publications you know I'd noticed that like there had been really a sense of like appreciation from Somali-like people for having these recipes like documented and I also realized that a lot of the knowledge of what the cuisine was like a lot of that was sort of getting lost right um or at risk of like getting lost especially for those in the diaspora and sort of like future generations and so for me like as much as I wanted it to be like an academic sort of like book um I really wanted to make sure that people had the blueprint of what this cuisine is and knew how to make it and had like a base to work off of to like sort of understand Somali like culinary traditions.

31:09Aliza A. Williams:But I also knew that I didn't want it to be just a cookbook. You know, for me, having that historical sort of like information and like opening up the book that way was very intentional because you can't have an understanding of just the recipes, you know, in a vacuum, as you said. Like there needs to be an understanding of like how this cuisine came to exist, how the country developed, how the culture developed, how Somali people developed because all of that really, you know, shows through like our food, but neither exists like in a vacuum.

31:41Ifrah F. Ahmed:Totally. And let's talk about that blueprint of what Somali cuisine is. Maybe for someone listening who's never had the opportunity to have it before, are there any like core flavors or techniques that you think of as being really essential?

31:52Aliza A. Williams:You know, in terms of flavors, I would say, you know, it's a very sort of like, like for example, we have like the heart of our sort of like savory food is a spice mix called how ash. And it's like usually at least seven spice, sometimes more mix. And it's like, you know, a lot of sort of like warming sort of flavors, you know, like cumin, coriander, black pepper, cinnamon, cardamom is huge as well. And that really, you know, is sort of flavors that you can find around you know a lot of indian ocean sort of like countries and along indian ocean like trade routes and so i would say that's sort of like the backbone of our cuisine um i think like you know for those that maybe don't understand the history you know like for example there there's a sort of phenomenon phenomenon where people will go to a somali restaurant like non-somalis and they'll say like why is there spaghetti on the menu you know like why am i being served a banana like next to my rice like do i eat it with the rice do i eat it by itself is it an appetizer and so a lot of those things are related to like our history our history you know um so i would say you know we have a lot of similarities with um neighbors especially along the indian ocean trade routes um so in terms of like you know we have like spiced rice for example um or like one pot rice and meat dishes like baris is kukaris you know we have um angero which is you know not the same as ethiopian and eritian angera and is made with uh totally different you know like flowers like sorghum and corn and it's a smaller sort of like sourdough pancake um that we eat and it visually looks very similar um to an indian dosa for example right like they look nearly identical And so there's just like a lot of overlap in cuisines for sure.

33:52Aliza A. Williams:And so you'll find the pasta, you'll find these sort of aromatic rice dishes and these really like savory sort of like slow cooked like meats. And then you'll find like spiced tea, for example. So shah, you know, is just like a super aromatic black tea. and there's also a lot of sweets, you know, cakes and cookies and things like that. And then, you know, we really utilize like chilies and like hot sauces and things like that. Somali food is not an inherently like spicy cuisine. A lot of our spice is like our hot sauces are usually on the side and it's sort of an optional thing, but it is a very flavorful cuisine.

34:36Aliza A. Williams:And so, yeah, I would say it's sort of a balance. But I think like when we are talking about Somali cuisine, there is a tendency to really want to over attribute like our cuisine to like Italian food or something or like Italian colonization. And while that influence is there, there's also like a rich, you know, indigenous cuisine already that was already there. And so I think that really gets overlooked as well.

35:01Ifrah F. Ahmed:Yeah, I think that's such a great overview. And one thing that I appreciate about your book is the way that it kind of breaks it down into different meals of the day. I think that's a really kind of natural way to kind of eat through something either like with your eyes or actually while cooking it. And I think the breakfast chapter is like such a banger. Like I feel like Somali breakfast goes really hard.

35:21Aliza A. Williams:It does. Yeah. That's actually probably my favorite chapter. Yeah. You know, it felt natural to divide it up in this way of like times of the day and less so like these really formal kind of like Western concept of like this is soup chapter. Yeah. You know. And so, yeah, I love the I love the breakfast or I love the morning chapter. I my favorite breakfast actually is Angero. so basically the you know the sourdough pancake that i was talking about and so what we do is you'll have fresh angero that's like the most common breakfast of somali's and one thing that i really love is that you know across households um in somalia like at night you'll hear the sounds of people making the angero batter so it's like this slapping sound where the the batter is getting kind of slapped into like the bowl to introduce air into you know the the batter and that's like just like such a beautiful thing that you can hear, you know, you know, across like households, basically, so that the batter is ready the next day.

36:24Aliza A. Williams:And so people are usually having anjaro and you'll have it with like various things. But my favorite way, and I think the most common way to have it is you have the anjaro and then you have ghee or subak, as we call it, spread on top of the anjaro. And then it's sprinkled with a little bit of sugar or some people do honey, but sugar is like very common and then uh you'll pour shah or spiced like black tea over it and then some people you know also love to have it with otka which is this sort of like beef jerky that's also cooked in ghee and like cardamom and it's very like salty kind of like nutty buttery and you have that with like the the sourdough pancake and like the all together They're soaked in like the sweet, like spice tea.

37:11Aliza A. Williams:It's amazing.

37:12Ifrah F. Ahmed:I'm so hungry right now talking about that. It's like such a beautiful kind of spice, like flavorful version of like the diner pancakes and like meat. The sweet and salty. Yeah. I love that. And I think the dessert chapter also is such a standout to me. Maybe since you talked about your first encounter with American cake on the plane, can you speak to what kind of Somali desserts are appearing in the book?

37:35Aliza A. Williams:Yeah, there's, you know. Like I tried to sort of do it's hard because like there's so much sommelier food, you know, to the point that like, you know, people would be like, oh, do we have enough recipes to like fill a cookbook? And I'm like, dude, I had to cut so many recipes because I can do all of them, you know. So I tried to really do sort of like the standout kind of like main desserts that people know. I'm sure there are several missing, but like our standard kind of cake, it's just called dolcio, which, you know, is very similar to the Italian word for dolce. And, you know, that's basically just like a very light, sort of like airy cardamom cake.

38:17Aliza A. Williams:My favorite cake in there is dolcio timir, which is a date cake, like a Somali date cake. and it's just it's just incredible it's very moist you know and sweet but like very balanced and I know a lot of people especially Somalis and like the UK do sort of like a syrup like a date syrup a sticky toffee kind of vibe but I like to keep it like the very traditional just like the date cake I think that's enough that's sweet enough there's halwa in there which is like um i feel like it's so sometimes it can be tricky to describe halwa because some people have like their own understanding of like halwa you know um but the somali version is like this very like sticky like reddish orangish um like dessert gelatinous like dessert and um yeah it's very very sweet and it's made fresh and i actually had such an incredible experience when we were Bacaro market, Sukho Bakaraha, which is one of, if not the largest market in Somalia.

39:26Aliza A. Williams:And my aunt actually works there. She has a clothing sort of business there. But we got to go to the bakery section and ask the bakers if we could shoot. And I remember there being this large vat of halwo being made sort of in the ground and like looking over at the guy, like just stirring it like, and it's just this like sort of molten, like reddish oranges, orange like gelatinous like dessert. And you're just like, wow, like this is incredible. It looks like lava almost, you know?

40:00Ifrah F. Ahmed:Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned the shoot because the photos in this book are so incredible. What was that process? Did you always know that you wanted to go and shoot in Somalia?

40:09Aliza A. Williams:Yeah, so to my knowledge, I think this is the first time a cookbook has been shot on location. in Somalia and for me that was very very intentional because I really wanted this like this book is for Somali people first and foremost right and I really wanted especially for those who hadn't been back or haven't been able to I really wanted them to see their home right I really wanted them to get an understanding of you know like Somalia and like visually like what everything, you know, kind of like looks like the energy, you know, just like, and I wanted to go to specifically because that's where I was born.

40:49Aliza A. Williams:That's my hometown. And the process of it was really, you know, it came together pretty quick. I asked Khadijo, who shot all the, you know, location photography to come from Nairobi. So she stayed at my mom's house in Mukhtisho, where like my extended family is. And, you know, we basically went around with my aunt. My aunt took a week off of work and the three of us went and traveled all around Mukhtisho in a tuk-tuk or a bajaj as we call it in Somali and just literally went around the city with my aunt. Some things were prearranged, but a lot of that stuff kind of fell through. I think there was maybe some like nervousness on like, you know, the ends of like some people who like maybe initially agreed Then later, sort of like, you know, didn't feel comfortable.

41:39Aliza A. Williams:But we didn't take anything without permission. You know, we're very intentional sort of like about like all the shots and everything. And yeah, it just was the three of us in a dream and Khadija's cameras. And, you know, there was a little bit of like some security stuff because there's a lot of checkpoints like in Mokhtisho. And sometimes it's like one camera, you're a hobbyist, two cameras. What are you doing? What are you up to? what's going on what's this about you know kind of like vibes and so there was that aspect of it too where it was like oh are we going to be able to get through to this area or you know are we going to be sort of like checked etc but it was amazing and then in some spaces like you know we did a shoot of like the fish market for example and um there for example that was like a lot of men were there you know and so it's just like sort of like what are what are these girls up to like what's going on but I found that a lot of people were super excited um and once they were told sort of like what was happening and everything but yeah it was very intentional for me to go to to go to Somalia and to shoot the book there because for me like I can't write a book called Somalia about Somali food and people and culture without also showing what Somalia is like and including the rich landscape of like the country and its people yeah I think it really matches so

42:58Ifrah F. Ahmed:well with the care that you took to be talking about the history of this country and what it's like today as well. And then the recipe photos, did you shoot those back here in the U.S.?

43:06Aliza A. Williams:We did the recipe shots in studio and Dua Al Qadi did those. And those were very beautiful. And what I really loved is that although Dua and Qadija were shooting two completely different things, their photo styles really went well together and really were sort of in conversation with one another and I felt like like I love both of their work you know they're both incredibly talented and like it just came out like even more beautifully than I could have

43:39Ifrah F. Ahmed:ever imagined yeah when I was you know reading the book I kind of went back to figure out who was shooting what and if they were two different people because they match so well together for the recipe photos specifically did you have preferences or dreams about like what the styling like how the overall shoot would kind of look and come together?

43:56Aliza A. Williams:Yeah, I mean, we had like the whole team was on, you know, we had like a mood board going. And, you know, like I would say like with this book, I feel like I was involved at every like aspect of it. You know, like literally the in-studio shots in New York, like I would be up in the camera like, can you move that grain of rice? You know, like that's how like I was like involved with this book, like every aspect of it. Like I, you know, wanted to weigh in and like because to me, this is like something that is like my dream book. Like it's my baby, you know. And, you know, luckily, like everyone I worked with was incredible and was super understanding of that.

44:39Aliza A. Williams:And there was a real sense of like this is special, you know, and like we're all going to do the best that we can. And what I really loved about the New York shoot also, like I was able to, I had my friend who runs an archive. He basically buys back Somali artifacts that have been looted by European collectors. And so he came from, he was on vacation and then he flew to Toronto where he lives and brought me these artifacts in a suitcase. Like Somali artifacts from the 1700s, 1800s, early 1900s. And they're used, some of those are used in the in-studio photo shoot, the recipe shots that we did.

45:20Aliza A. Williams:Those artifacts were able to be used in that shoot as well.

45:24Ifrah F. Ahmed:That's so meaningful. And is that the cover photo? Can you speak about that?

45:30Aliza A. Williams:No, that's not the cover photo. So the cover photo, I'm holding a kal en moye, which is a mortar and pestle, and that I brought back from Somalia on one of my trips back home. and um so the artifact is not there but it's in the like this i think it's like the the spread like the with the blue background yeah um some of the artifacts are in there and then also the fabric that blue fabric is a geres um which is basically like this like this fabric that like belonged to belongs to my mother and is like one of the fabrics that she brought back from somalia like when we first came to the country so it's been with us since we got here so that's the background of um the second sort of like food spread but the cover i'm wearing um uh lindi which is basically a very traditional indigenous somali like fabric like print um and so to me that's like really a symbol of like somali nimo or somali identity and the kalenda moya the mortar and the pestle is really a symbol of like somali culinary heritage um so that that was the cover and that's

46:33Ifrah F. Ahmed:me on the cover yeah I thought it was your hands I recognize yeah yeah the posture was there a conversation about choosing that image as opposed to a food photo for the cover um you know like we

46:44Aliza A. Williams:looked over a bunch of different options and like I was sent like a file with like potential like covers and I saw that one and I saw like what is my current cover and I immediately went that's my cover like I want this like that's my dream cover and I you know I wasn't sure if like it would like get the green light like if we would get the green light to use it obviously because it's not a food cover but for me like it was really important that like I like my cover was something that really showcased like Somali heritage because to me like yes this is a cookbook and like obviously the mortar and pestle sort of nods to the like that culinary heritage but it's like not just a cookbook like there's so many other elements happening in this book um and for me like I wanted it to feel really like also like an art book like cover you know and something that wouldn't ever feel dated or you know kind of like it's just something that could really be a classic right so that like and also really speak to Somali people I knew if a Somali person saw that cover they would immediately know what it was and that it was for them.

47:56Ifrah F. Ahmed:Yeah, I think that really resonates and makes sense. And just on this idea of heritage, I'm curious, as a recipe developer and as someone who is trying to make this book, how much were you balancing having a really traditional version of a dish as opposed to your personal version or a more contemporary version?

48:12Aliza A. Williams:This is almost entirely a traditional book. I think for me, it sort of goes back to the mindset of I took when I do recipe development for the times versus when I do like my own pop ups. Right. And so like for me, because I thought of this book as something that could be sort of like long lasting and as sort of like a gift for my generation and future generations to really understand Somali cuisine, like there had to be an understanding of what the blueprint of these recipes are before I can even try to do it. to add anything or change anything because like that fundamental knowledge itself is at risk of being lost and so if I'm not able to like preserve that it's difficult to add you know other variations on top of that I wanted people to have that base knowledge first and so that's also what I do when I do recipe development for other publications but then when I do like my pop-ups I feel more creative freedom to do sort of a reimagination of what Somali cuisine could be, but still incredibly rooted in the traditional sort of, you know, like techniques and like flavors and ingredients.

49:24Ifrah F. Ahmed:So totally like knowing the fundamentals before you kind of riff off of them. Exactly. I have to say, though, the like Somali breakfast burritos that you were doing at one of your pop ups, I really would like to eat one of those.

49:35Aliza A. Williams:Well, that might be coming back very soon. Now I'm out of cookbook writing hiatus. You know, I haven't been doing a lot of like pop-ups for the last couple of years because this book was such a massive like undertaking. And so now I'm kind of, you know, like the book's done. So I'm looking forward to like cooking in a more professional capacity again. That's exciting to hear.

49:56Ifrah F. Ahmed:Maybe to tease it for someone who's listening, what's the Somali breakfast burrito?

49:59Aliza A. Williams:Sure. I was making something called an Angero burrito. So I started this basically when I was sort of doing a sabbatical in L.A. a couple of years ago and really noticing the love that L.A. has for breakfast burritos. As someone from L.A., that's why it speaks to me. Yeah. Well, hey, I'm glad that that works out. But yeah, so I was in L.A. and I was like, what would sort of a Somali take on this be? And, you know, what's interesting is that, like, I grew up eating, like, anjero, and you would have it with ful and with eggs and with the baspas, which is basically, you know, the fava bean stew, the eggs, and then the hot sauce with the anjero.

50:42Aliza A. Williams:But, you know, it's literally what I grew up eating, but all I really changed was, like, the way that it's served, which is basically everything rolled up into, like, a kind of a burrito form and served that way. So that was the Angero like pop-up set, Angero burrito pop-up that I was doing in Seattle, LA and like New York. And yeah, the response was just like wild. Like I feel like I would like post something and say like, oh, I'm, you know, like pre-order here and then it would just sell out, you know, immediately.

51:08Ifrah F. Ahmed:Well, I mean, it's such a delicious combination of foods and then also in that convenient portable burrito format. Exactly. Exactly. I get it. I'm grinning. I'm really excited about that. When you want your spring break to feel like. And your kid's pool day to feel like. And your hotel bed to feel like. Ooh, and room service to feel like. Because at Hilton, hospitality feels like.

51:37Aliza A. Williams:Your cabana's ready. Would you like fresh towels?

51:39Ifrah F. Ahmed:It matters where you stay.

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52:20Ifrah F. Ahmed:This episode is brought to you by Nespresso. Introducing Virtuo Up, the latest in a long line of innovation from Nespresso. It's innovation you can touch, sense, and taste in every single cup. With a three-second start, easy open lever, and dedicated brew over ice button, it's even easier to enjoy your coffee your way. Sip for yourself. Shop Virtuo Up exclusively at Nespresso.com. and to close today i want to play a rapid fire game with you so i'm going to have you pick some favorites okay okay just say the first thing that comes into your head it'll be fine

52:56Aliza A. Williams:so start your favorite cookbook right now um i go back to a couple but i would say my everyday lagos um by my friend yawande is just incredible it's a great book your go-to late night snack? Ooh, I'm a reformed, um, sweet late night, sweet eater. Uh, so it's like literally just any dessert would be like, you know, um, like my late night snack plus tea. I'm always having tea. Yeah. Your favorite ice cream flavor? Um, ube. Um, there's a company in Seattle called Elanos that makes like a really, really good ube flavored, um, technically it's frozen yogurt, but let's just pretend it's ice cream.

53:40Ifrah F. Ahmed:We'll allow it. A Somali dish that you think should be more widely known in the U.S.?

53:46Aliza A. Williams:Probably otka. I mean, there's a lot of amazing dishes, but otka, I would say, the sort of like nutty, like beef jerky, you know, cooked in ghee and cardamom. It's amazing. Yeah, it seems like something everyone could really get behind. Yeah.

54:02Ifrah F. Ahmed:Your favorite special occasion restaurant?

54:04Aliza A. Williams:You know, I'm kind of like a special occasion. Like I'm more into like doing that at home. So I don't have an exact answer for that. Your house.

54:13Ifrah F. Ahmed:My house. A restaurant that is not in your neighborhood that you magically wish could be your neighborhood restaurant.

54:20Aliza A. Williams:A wash, but the one in the East Village. That one specifically. Why that one? I just think the food is the best there. Like they have several locations, but that's like, I don't know what they're doing at that location, but it's good. And I wish it was within walking distance.

54:40Ifrah F. Ahmed:Okay. Okay. Finally, a fictional food scene like from a book or a movie or something made up that you wish you could eat in real life.

54:48Aliza A. Williams:The chocolate cake from Matilda. I know that that was a scene in which that child was suffering, but the quality of the cake just looked incredible. And I was really inspired by sort of how he turned the situation around in the end and was victorious. Yeah, he suffered and then he overcame.

55:05Ifrah F. Ahmed:Exactly. I think you could do the same. Exactly. I did. You did. Ifra, this has been so much fun. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for having me.

55:20Ifrah F. Ahmed:This is Taste is hosted and produced by Matt Rodbard and me, Eliza Abarbanel. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergang Pomeroy Logo design by Ellie Skurzat and Ian Dingham Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com And make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste

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