729: The Wild and Influential Aquavit Days with Marcus Samuelsson

23:26Marcus Samuelsson:You had the club there? Yeah. And then the last quarter is obviously Harlem itself, right? So after all the restaurants I worked with and designed and been part of, we never entered and or not in that specific order. So it humbles you. And as a chef, I'm like, what do you mean the food only is going to be a quarter? But it really taught boundaries and taught me a lot. Very progressive idea. 15 years on, and I really recommend our listeners to go to Red Rooster. Chef Roe is crushing it. Yeah, tell me about what's, I haven't been back in a number of years, and I apologize. No, but I mean, we knew that we needed to evolve, right?

24:05because if a restaurant doesn't evolve... 15 years is a long time. Yeah. We needed to renovate, which we did, renovate the physical place. We actually took more space because that's the demand. And then also, we knew we wanted to evolve with a new executive chef, and Chef Ro has been incredible. She's also an amazing professor at the Culinary Institute of America, but she knows specifically about the link between African-American cooking and Africa, the continent. And I'm like, that's the perfect match. She's a young chef, but she's an old soul and she cares about history. And that's why we felt like she's the perfect sort of ambassador to take this responsibility.

24:47You almost have to be like a history teacher in a way. And she has that level of—

24:53Marcus Samuelsson:Because you have to make it feel authentic. Yes. You can't do the Disney version of Harlem Renaissance gospel brunch. I mean, you have to do it right. Yeah. And it's not easy. And she's added so much, and I'm extremely proud of her, and that's part of our progression, right? We do that in all our restaurants. Like Hav Mar is run by Fariel, right, in the kitchen, right? So, you know, that link between a very personal story, Hav is a Swedish word, means ocean, Mar is an Ethiopian word, it means honey, you know, Fariel is Ethiopian, I'm Ethiopian. And how can we tell this very one-on-one story using, like, having people even using a name like Hav Mar, like, what does that even mean?

25:40But, you know, you come into Hav Mar, you see these black mermaids done by Derek Adams, and then Fariel and I go back and forth with the food. So we wanted to build something that was extremely unique, but also talk about female leadership, right, our GM. all the lead positions are held by women of color and we want to keep it that way and it's something that we're really extremely proud of so each restaurant not only food wise tells a different story but also the ethos the DNA has to tell and it has to be part of moving the New York City scene forward

26:11Marcus Samuelsson:and it's so challenging because it's a very fast moving target and I have to recognize that your chef at Havmar is named a semi-finalist for the James Beard New York Awards which is very challenging so congrats on that Yeah, that's very, very cool. We're very proud of her. How do you think of your other restaurants? Because you've got these core restaurants in New York, but you've got a groove. Yeah. And you've got restaurants in the Caribbean. You've got restaurants around America. You've got restaurants in Europe. Yeah. I mean, Metropolis, it's an incredible place, the pack center. You know, when Bloomberg and the entire team thought through, you know, what the memorial, the 9-11 memorial, the 9-11 museum, a culture center was always part of that.

27:00It was the last piece to the campus. and for someone that was around here in New York and worked at the tower the weekend before it happened, that knew a lot of chefs and cooks and servers. At Windows? At Windows. And Michael Amalek has always been such a kind chef and he always invited us in. So I was there and then afterwards we were out there like a lot of New York chefs handing out sandwiches, soups, just being there. So to be able to work with PAC and with Metropolis 20 plus, 25 years later, it's such a privilege. And it's filled with arts and culture, right? When you enter that building, there's always some theater, some type of activity around arts going on.

27:47And our restaurant sits right there and it's stunning done by David Rockwell. I'm really proud of the restaurant and we're very, very busy. So I feel blessed about that.

27:57Marcus Samuelsson:I love to hear that. Well, I want to move on and talk about your work at CCAP, where you're a co-chair. It's a culinary careers program. And I want to ask you, Marcus, broadly, when an 18-year-old high school senior comes to you and says in 2026, I want to be a chef, what do you say to them? Well, welcome to the club. I love that. You will always have a job. You will always meet very unique giving people in our industry. and it's not a linear path and be give of yourself and you're going to get so much more back. What does give up yourself mean in 2026? I think that we hear a lot about the old way of doing things, the kitchens run by fear and the 90-hour work weeks.

28:45Marcus Samuelsson:I'm not sure that works today. No, I mean, I think our industry is holding up the mirror to itself pretty well and I think we can do better but it's also because we have more people and different voices in the industry, right? We're going to have better pathway to look at situations like that. No one wants to go back to the dark ages and screaming. I have to inspire, and I also get inspired by young people. Like for me, working with like a chef like Anthony in D.C., right? Shout out to Chef Anthony. Also got a beard nominated. Oh, great. Amazing mace. Anthony Jones is an incredible chef in D.C.

29:24but like watching him and Fariel work, like they are solving things very differently than how it was done when I was coming back up for the better, right? Not for the worst.

29:37Marcus Samuelsson:Give me an example. I'm curious. Well, I mean, one of the things that Fariel and I and Anthony and I talked a lot about, they're starting with like, they want the culture of the kitchen to be out of joy. You know, I came up in a fear monger way where, hey, everything has to be perfect. you're not allowed to make any mistakes. Well, the only thing I can guarantee is that we're going to make mistakes, right? That's actually the only thing. And to starting point to like, hey, I want to build a culture of joy. That doesn't mean it's not going to be focused. That doesn't mean it's not going to be great.

30:08But I want people to get something here that beyond the paycheck, that is out of spirit and joy and want to come back. And in times like this, where we have to go through so many different things just to get to work, that has proven We don't have high turnovers in our restaurants, and it's because of the culture.

30:26Marcus Samuelsson:Yeah, so solving the problem of retention is through just business operations being centered around joy and not fear. Back to the 18-year-old, where's the growth opportunity as a chef? I mean, can you make a living as a chef? I think we talk about the wages being where they're at and New York being so expensive. with your work at CCAP. Are you seeing this career being a long-term growth opportunity for young chefs? What I think is great about hospitality today is that there's more opportunities in spaces. Like you can be an 18-year-old chef and work in the kitchen and then say, hey, I'm going to be a food photographer.

31:05Or hey, I'm going to start a podcast. Or hey, you know what? Me and my friends, we've been posting a lot. And we're going to do a pop-up at home. Or, you know, there's more that, for me, the core of keep being curious about the craft, keep writing your food, keep being interested about learning. How that manifests 10 years later, it's not up to you or me. It's really up to that individual. And it's not just going to go up, up, up. It might go up and down. And you might do different things. How great is that? Because once it's all practiced to that day when you're going to have that corner or that window or that thing where you're going to have a dialogue with the public, whether that is through a pop-up series or whether that is through a traditional restaurant.

31:54Marcus Samuelsson:Food recipe development. Exactly. But you have to actually enter it like this is the most important thing I'm doing right now. Very, very, very good advice. And you can do that even if you have a secondary job and you might only work in a restaurant two days a week. But those two days, you're giving kind of up, you're giving yourself the chance to be informed as much as possible. Broad question. I think you're really qualified to answer it. And we go back to the, you know, the idea that cookbooks are hard to find. And, you know, this world of fine dining is pretty small. Fast forward to today, food is like one of the only monocultures in the society we live in.

32:37Marcus Samuelsson:Everyone's talking about food. It doesn't matter what your background is. It could be a dental hygienist. It could be an investment banker. It could be your neighbor. It could be your coworker. Everyone wants to talk about the restaurant they went to, the dish they made from New York Times. What do you think about that evolution, Marcus? I think this is actually incredible, and I think it's because we opened it up more, right? not because of the uh of social media and more voices and you know like great food is on every block not just in new york city right it might be a ramen shop it might be um you know a taqueria it could be the fact that when i was coming up it was only french food not even italian or japanese food was even counted as good food i was like that's absolutely ridiculous we love french food but every nation has incredible food.

33:28And once enough food writers started to write about that, and you think about the people really transformed, which go back to Ruth Reichel or Jonathan Gold, that kind of opened up the door. And it's not a coincidence it comes from California, and then eventually it comes to the East Coast. And then you have platforms like Eaters, like Food Republic, like really looking at all types of food, And then eventually that morphs into individuals that are now, you know, you look at the industry where it is today, where food storytelling is everywhere, not just from a European lens, right? And that's incredible, you know, but it took a long time.

34:09And that's also why that, when it was only fine dining at a three-star, two-star level, that nurse that you just talked about, that school teacher, couldn't aspire to go there, right? No, hey, I had a great ramen down the street. And it was, I don't know,$23. And I can participate. So once you open something up, and my voice, whatever the voice is, matters too, you make it much more democratic.

34:33Marcus Samuelsson:Yeah, well said. It's totally right on the money. That's why it's exciting to work in this industry and see. But those were the things that I saw in Asia, right? Like when you ate at a hockey stand and you paid$2 for a dish and it was just as good as the restaurant that I worked in. Actually, sometimes better. But where I, you know, in that fancy hotel, we had to charge 60 bucks for something, right? But I was like, no, what they're cooking is incredible. And we ran, all the chefs ran from the hotel. When we had a break, over to the Huckstown, I was like, whatever is going on here is how I want to be around food, you know?

35:15Marcus Samuelsson:Let's transition and talk about Africa, about Addis Ababa and traveling there. I think it's one of our great food cities that's emerging. I got to go maybe six years ago and just had a wonderful time to be exposed to the different styles of restaurants. It was a while ago for me, but you travel there with frequency. For our listeners who want to go, what's it like traveling to Ethiopia? Addis is now becoming a vertical city with tall buildings and vibrancy. The food thing is amazing. You have everything from amazing engaged food bloggers to modern restaurants. I mean, we have our restaurant on the 47th floor.

35:56But we also are part with the cooking school, so the students now can come and work with us. Working in Africa is one of the biggest dreams of my life and be able to share my knowledge and be able to learn a lot from them. As an adopted kid, you never quite fully understand your birth country in terms of food and culture because I didn't grow up there. So for me, it's really like I'm learning from them and I can share my experience in hospitality. it's the it's everything is exciting because a lot of it is new right if a noodle shop is opening it's packed because people are running there if a new pizza shop with Teff is opening people are going to that right that's really cool it's the excitement of that not just great food because Africa has had great food longer than Europe right but the fact media exposure exactly so now you have that back and forth and, you know, the fact, you know, like so many of us, like, you know, Michael, even in Lagos, he opened his, you know, almost like a food lab for young kids to come in and learn.

37:07That's cool. You know, Eric is in Ghana going back and forth and I know a lot of Ghanaian chefs that worked in New York and moved back. And so this, just like Europe and South America and Asia has created kind of this back and forth between America and wherever they came from, Africa is doing the same thing. So we have that link and we can't wait for more people to come to discover it.

37:34Marcus Samuelsson:Yeah. And it's incredible. A terrific piece in Bon Appetit was written about your opening there. Yeah. I highly recommend reading that. A few more questions. I loved Yes Chef. Yeah. I remember it came out in 2012, your memoir. I have to ask, you know, are you thinking about another memoir maybe to catch us up? I feel that was such a story of your life and like working in Europe and then moving to New York. But there's probably some stories left on the table. It's funny you said. I would love to. I mean, I think sharing your story forces you. It took me five years, me and Veronica. And it was actually our editor here in this building.

38:17But it's such an incredible way of actually sitting down and going through your journey. You can't just talk about it because you actually have to put real meaning to it. So I learned a lot about myself and then be able to share it with the world. And so many young chefs came up and still come up and talk about it. So there's definitely an opportunity. I feel there's just stories.

38:45Marcus Samuelsson:It's been a while. Yeah, it's been a while. I'm thinking about it and just try to fit it in with everything they did it with the schedule that's the thing getting those stories down but just the last 15 years I've seen a lot of change in America a lot of change with you as your profile you just have such a clear voice in that book I love that book it's terrific tell me a little bit about the Rise Residency which I think is very very cool that you're taking chefs and creators and putting them in a space thank you for asking that so much of my work is actually putting things in place that a young, black, up-and-coming, ambitious chef, young me didn't have, right?

39:26And it forced me also to think outside the box. So I looked at Jean-Michel Basquiat. I looked at Prince. I looked at Tribe Called Quest. You know, I looked at other pop culture things, if they can do it, how do they do it, right? When I, coming up in the 90s, a lot of my friends that were not in the kitchen or they worked in restaurants with people like, I mean, these are superstars in their field, like people like Sanford Biggers, Julie Merreto, that are major, major artists today. But back then, they were incredible artists and talent, and they worked in restaurants. They could work in the coffee shop or, you know, whatever.

40:05But so we shared a lot, right? And they were like, hey, I'm going to go away for six months. I'm going to a residency. I said, what's a residency? And then do you have to paint? maybe but it's more about reflecting and learning from what they're having and i have to maybe write some notes and maybe give a speech about it but i'm not forced to do that i'm like when we do stages we come back broke and tired how can we like a residency is what we need one day so i have a checklist of things that wasn't in our space that i feel like i have to create that That's what Hav is. That's what Red Rooster is.

40:43That's what the cookbooks are for, right? Really, like, to set up things that this is possible, you know? So working on the Rice Residency, and obviously after launching the Rice Cookbook, introducing and working with so many incredible African-American chefs that are now out in the space crushing it, right? I'm like, what could be a follow-up to the Rice Residency? It's really a follow-up to the cookbook about, you know what? Go upstate. Come to Denison Hills, which is Julie Merhattro's incredible project in the Catscales. Stay with artists. There's an amazing kitchen. You don't have to cook or you can.

41:24It's up to you. You're going to live on a farm, all things paid for, and come back to us and share your story. No pressure. You do not have to cook for the other people there. But you might get inspired, right? So we never, as chefs, get that break where it's just pause. And what this has been telling me is like that's all we need sometimes.

41:44Marcus Samuelsson:So a young cook in New York applies and they get to go upstate for how long? For a couple of weeks. Yeah. Living with artists. And it doesn't have to be, you know, you don't have to be a chef. You have to be in the space of food. So if you're a food writer, a food photographer, for me, I want to keep it open to us, right? Because a young person is also not necessarily settled where they're going to, and they might end up with a food blog, you know what I mean? So I don't want to limit it to that. I want it to be about hospitality and apply because if you don't apply, and that's the other thing with me, right?

42:18These journeys that I did, my mom and I, we applied to every scholarship. We applied to every three-star Michelin restaurant because if we didn't put a hat in the ring, how are we going to get picked? So she's like, no, I found a scholarship for you. Let's write to it. And very often, people didn't apply, so I got the scholarship. You know? Yeah. And I think that, no, let's, if you have this platform that I have, I got to fill it with positive energy and evolve our industry forward. That's cool. You know, that's important to me.

42:50Marcus Samuelsson:Are applications open now? Yes, absolutely. So we're going to link to that. When's the deadline, roughly? The application's open. Are we going to open it up? Rolling. It's a rolling application. There's no deadline, but I'm going to link to it in the show notes. You may be interested in applying for this show. Definitely. Sounds like a pretty cool opportunity. I appreciate you doing this work. I think a lot of chefs aim to do this kind of work. The spirit is there, but they can't physically get it done. And you're going to work with other artists, right? Like you're going to be with – those are relationships you might keep forever.

43:21And obviously we have a lot of relationships in the city. So I know if you want to do a pop-up dinner at Amazing Gallery or Museum, all of those things can come afterwards. But we needed to make sure we set this up. And I can't wait to hear the stories from them.

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44:54Minerals keep you moving. Save 20 % on traceminerals.com with code podcast.

45:01Marcus Samuelsson:Pakistan, this is Taste. We have guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire. Yeah. Fast and Furious Taste Check. Are you ready? Can't wait to ask these questions. The best fruit. I love Asian pear. I'll just bite that melon feel, but it's a pear. Surprises you. Yeah, and also when you get it in Japan, it's very often as a gift, you only get one, but it's like that perfect wrapped and packaged. I mean, fruit gifting is the thing here, but it's not the same thing as it is in Asia. Definitely not. The worst vegetable?

45:39I met some bad people. I haven't met a lot of bad vegetables.

45:43Marcus Samuelsson:Is there one that you are less inclined to cook with? See, I'm so weird. I kind of like that because that's like... You want the challenge. The challenge, exactly. What's one that you've risen to the occasion that you maybe weren't initially light liking? Well, you know, celery knob, like the root of celery, we used it so much in Sweden because it's one of those things that actually grows really well in Sweden, right? And we used it mildly more for stock, sometimes a little bit in sauces, and not until I understood, like, okay, if you roast this, this turns really sweet, and there's a whole other flavor developed.

46:20It took me a while to understand how to deal with it. A tricky one. It's a tricky one, absolutely. Yeah.

46:25Marcus Samuelsson:What is your typical breakfast? Oh, I'm up early making breakfast for my kids, so I have to eat around whatever. But, you know, I make these pancakes for them that very often has sweet potato, the quinoa teff, and maybe banana or over-up banana, because I want to make sure, like, once they leave here, I can't control what they're eating, but, like, I want to make sure they get a good start, and then very often it's whatever they leave on that. I have coffee, and I'm just, like, want to get one of those tough pancakes and out the door. Do you have time to cook dinner for your family? Not as much as I like, but I try to do it on weekends, and I cook a lot with Zion.

47:06Zion is actually, he knows 10 times more about food than I did at his age. and he's just been around. He's been exposed to so much more food than I had at 10 and he loves it.

47:19Marcus Samuelsson:10's great. He did. You think you have three children, right? Yeah. Do you think you'll have a chef in the family? I don't want to put any of that pressure on him. Of course not. Zion is definitely the most, he loves our food runs. Like if we can go down on El Barrio, for example, 116 and we go from the Puerto Rican joint to Taco Mix to the Peruvian joined across the street, and so he has his tasting menu. What a fun time walk around Harlem. Yeah, yeah. Good one for you. The best dessert?

47:54I mean, there are moments where something like a perfect souffle is the best dessert, because as a chef, you think about the timing, the technique of that.

48:04Marcus Samuelsson:We respect the game. Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that. It's a great answer from a chef. A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead. Wow. Well, El Bui. Yeah. Because... You ever dined there? Yes, yes, yes. Of course. Fran is like... Yeah. It's like messy to me, you know what I mean? I guess I remember when Jose took me the first time. Yeah. I was blown away. Yeah. It, like, it really, I mean, it shook me too. I mean, it was just something I've never, ever experienced and seen. and I'll never forget it. That's great. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food? I would say Tokyo, Singapore, Addis.

48:54Just three different, very, no, the youth, I mean, think about when you're in Africa, half of the age is under 25, so the youth movement is so exciting. Yes. And Singapore, out of the diversity of the food, And Tokyo, because of the precision and the variety of Japanese, not just Japanese food, but the food you can get.

49:14Marcus Samuelsson:It's a great trio. And in this conversation, you've articulated why. Last one, your favorite sandwich. It's not a traditional sandwich, but one of my favorite meals that is flatbread-ish. I would say two. Having a double in Trinidad. like there's no need to eat breakfast in a restaurant when you're in Trinidad eat a double and you know there's two kind of small rotis there's channa the chickpeas put on top there's all the fixings very often road food like it is road food it's incredible there are double shops in Queens but I think that's a bite that is just so delicious and I would say another kind of flat The bread that I love, very similar to injera in its way of eating, is dosa.

50:09Marcus Samuelsson:Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, like, having those, there's something about touching that crispy bread, flat bread. Yes. With going in and pick those different types of stews. I just love that way of eating. Yeah. And the dosa, you get the crispy part and you get the soft part. That contrast. And, of course, depending on where you are, the dips. And also, as a vegetarian, if you want to eat something vegetarian, you can. I just think it's brilliant sort of the way it's constructed. It's amazing. Marcus Samuelson, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you so much, Matt.

50:42And congratulations to you.

50:44Marcus Samuelsson:Thanks, buddy. You're adding so much value to the industry. You bring up all kinds of chefs and not just chef people and keep the conversation going because it's needed more than ever. Thank you. Thank you for doing that. Thank you, Marcus. Really appreciate that. Appreciate it.

51:03This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skrzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.

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