732: Simon Kim Changed the Language of Korean Barbecue

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0:31I remember having a conversation with my landlord, who didn't want to give me the space because Korean barbecue fancy doesn't work. I ended the conversation with, fast forward 10 years, when Korean food is mainstream, popular cuisine, you can look back at this moment and take credit that you gave us an opportunity.

0:54Simon Kim:This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard. What does it feel like to run some of the country's buzziest restaurants? But buzzy restaurants with razor-sharp point of view and, of course, terrific cooking. Our friend Simon Kim shares his story while taking the Resi questionnaire. Simon runs Coke Korean Steakhouse, a joyous restaurant with locations in New York, Miami, Las Vegas, and Singapore. He's also behind Kokodak, which since opening has changed the conversation around the Korean fried chicken restaurant. This conversation with Simon is honest, inspiring, and really shows how Simon is one of the brightest stars in American restaurants.

1:36Simon Kim:I hope you enjoy this episode.

1:41Simon Kim:Simon Kim, welcome back to This Is Taste. Great to see you. Matt, it's always a pleasure, man. It's always, like, we've shared a lot of experiences together. I've been going to your restaurants for a long time. Long time. Pure days. Definitely pure days. And like the growth of your group is just, I love seeing it. Couldn't happen to a better guy. Tell me, you know, you're opening 550 soon. You'll, you know, Coat is what it is. It's a juggernaut. What's good in your world right now with all your restaurants? Oh, so we just opened Vegas in October. there was a big homecoming because I went to hotel school there and my first career was a junior manager I was a front desk agent at one of the casino hotels and then my first job as a restaurant was assistant manager in Vegas so to bring it all back we just opened in October it's been a very well received so a great homecoming but that being said we didn't really have time to celebrate the opening because 550 is opening soon 550 Madison, 56th Street and Madison Avenue.

2:51I really do feel like I've been working on this for about four years. I really do think...

2:58Simon Kim:It's a long time. It really is, right? And it has so many different components. Chef Yoshitake from Streets of Ginza in Tokyo, we're doing a really cool bar and all-day dining concept on the first floor and coat on the basement. but, you know, truly season two of Coat. So I feel like, yeah. Season two. When you expand a brand within a city, you got to think about how to, it's just not like number two, it's season two. It really is, right? I think I've matured a lot. You know, when I first opened Coat, I think I was, you know, just, you know, almost 30 years old. You know, it's been almost a decade.

3:40So I learned a lot and, you know, a lot more resources was invested and our team has matured as well. So I feel like bootstrapped, very low budget, barely made it to the finish line, which is Code Original. And this is a lot more ambition, you know, a lot more high profile. I feel like this is, if I was an artist, I feel like this is going to be the masterpiece, if you will. So honestly, opening Miami, Vegas, Singapore, Coco Doc was very nerve-wracking, right? But I feel like I lose sleep every night about 5.50 just because I'm a New Yorker. I think there's certain importance to that address. And as a restaurateur and as a New Yorker, also as a Korean-American, you know, there's a lot at play.

4:34Simon Kim:I hear pride. There's definitely— what you've built and like wanting to continue building it in the same manner yeah high level of of quality i yeah i mean i'm very fortunate i have an amazing team that's been with me since day one and i feel like this is the final truly like the masterpiece that we get to build together and uh it's uh it's just a lot right so i'm very much focused on 550 opening because it's It's a cool address. It's a cool building. It's a cool location. Historical for sure. Yeah. And then once the masterpiece is done, you're going to open like 5 ,000 Cocoa Docs? Maybe. Maybe not.

5:13Simon Kim:I don't know. I mean, I kind of, you know, we're very fortunate because we have more of a concept than a restaurant, right? Which is concepts are innately, or brand I like to call. So brands are a little more scalable because it's not necessarily fully dependent on the chef of the kitchen or the general manager of it's more of a concept if you will but that being said i don't know i go back and forth you know sometimes like let's open hundreds of restaurants but sometimes i'm like no let's not do that right because i feel like there are many brands out there that over expanded and i feel like the the special feeling of going to a restaurant kind of you can lose that.

5:59Simon Kim:Absolutely. You see it all the time. And realizing that in your position where you could be expanding and scaling is great to see. Yeah. And I pay so much attention and respect and homage to our predecessors, right? They've truly paved the way. Yeah. So, and I feel like we as the successor really need to learn from them, you know? So I pay a lot of attention, but I'm still learning. and just trying to figure it out. Simon, are you ready to take the resi questionnaire? I'm definitely ready to take resi questionnaire. It's going to be a trip because this is like, this is your life. I mean, we're going through so many different elements of your life.

6:39Simon Kim:And the first one is the favorite thing you've ever cooked. Definitely galbi jim. Galbi jim is my favorite dish. And I feel like you know this dish better than... Oh my God, I love it so much. Yes, galbi jim, short rib, beef short rib. and now we have access to really amazing beef, right? You can do American Wagyu or USD Prime. So really, I guess, rib number seven, number eight, right? The thickest one. Sweet soy sauce marinade. The radish, the carrots. Canned chestnut. I love that addition. That is what really is the dish. But gaibit jim. Yeah, I mean, it's like you've got orchard fruits and soy sauce married.

7:22Simon Kim:You've got this tender meat, potatoes and chestnuts in there. I love that dish. I think it's a perfect balance of something really special, but something extremely comforting. Yeah. You know, it's a, yeah, you do it on your birthdays, but it's not a fancy, I mean, it's a fancy dish because it's expensive ingredients like, you know, prime short rib and a lot of beef, and especially in Korea, beef was always expensive. But it's still a very comforting dish. It's not like, there's no fufu about it. Definitely. Your favorite meal from childhood? Going to a Korean barbecue restaurant with my dad. Yeah, my dad was a little bit of a, he's an introvert, and he liked fine dining restaurants and what have you.

8:03But in Korea, Korean barbecue was where you get the best quality beef. Like, Korean barbecue is Korean steakhouse, right? So when I go there, the rambunctiousness, the fun and fire, people having a night out, that kind of noise. I love Korean barbecue.

8:19Simon Kim:Was there a dish there? Was there a style of beef that you just loved as a kid? Of course, Kaiby. Yeah, Kaiby. It has to be. You just mentioned Kaiby Jim and you have Kaiby as well. There's a reason why I have a Kaiby restaurant. Right, exactly. It's not Samjivsal. One day. I love Samjivsal more than the next guy. But I feel like, but if I had to choose one, especially as a business, I think Kaibi is, you know, the sweet soy sauce on a steak. I feel like it's almost like when you play computer games, it's a cheat mode. Yeah, it's a cheat code. Well said. Give me a kitchen tool or piece of equipment you cannot live without.

9:02Simon Kim:Oh, definitely my knife. Yeah. I get my knife from Corin. they all have my names and they love my so all the chefs and friends like Sushi Nas Nozoma gave me a nice knife my David gave me a nice knife so I have a pretty nice knife selection and I live very close to Corinth so I sharpened that and it's the greatest joy to like slice something with the sharpest knife yeah nothing better it's so great this is a good one for you a drink of choice? Drink of choice? If I'm feeling I'm going out, this is a night. This is not a modest night. Then obviously it's a vodka martini. Yeah. I like it very, very dry.

9:53Only vodka that I like to really drink is Chopin Family Reserve. It's a bougie, it's very expensive vodka, honestly. But it has one major problem.

10:05Simon Kim:Drinks like water. Oh, that's a problem with vodka. Why dry? Why extra dry? Why is that your martini of choice? I like, I don't know, when there's a lot of vermouth, I think it thickens the flavor. It's not as pure. I like it dry, but I like to stir it a little long so the dilution ratio goes a little high, so it's not too abrasive. I like to have my martini glass slightly smaller than regular because martinis are better drank cold so yeah and I like if I'm going out man I actually like last night we drank 7 martinis together it helps when it's smaller and my rule for martini is I generally always get it with olives because I think the salty brininess really kind of, I like savoriness more than the twist, the sweet note, if you will.

11:08So I'm a savory guy. So do that and then olive and small glass. First sip when you toast, I like to drink almost half of it.

11:18Simon Kim:Yeah, that's the way to do it. Totally understand. It's just because of temperature, right? And dilution. Exactly. So it is a fact. The first sip of martini out of glass is the best sip. Might as well make that a giant one. My man. Smart move. Your favorite food movie? Chef Jon Favreau. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For some reason, I cried twice watching that movie. One scene where the critic, and then he throws that molten lava cake. You know what I think? I think it really resonated. Yeah, yeah. You felt seen in that movie. Yeah, definitely. Especially the PR days. It was really tough. You know, things were really, really tough.

12:02I think it shows, you know, restaurants are always elegant, like a swan, you know. It's like always gliding. Everybody's enjoying themselves. But behind it, underneath, we're paddling like hell. And there's really nothing elegant about it, you know. And I think it shows that. And yeah, everything about that movie, I love.

12:21Simon Kim:Talk about those days a bit, Piora. I mean, you're operating at a high level. You get great reviews, but you still are struggling. Is it the location? Is it the concept? you were so early to offering Korean elements. It wasn't a full Korean restaurant, it was Korean elements in a fine dining setting with amazing service. Well ahead of your time with that. Was that part of it too? I think so. I think a combination of everything, right? We were definitely avant-garde. Yeah. A couple of steps. You always want to be half step forward. You don't want to be full step or two steps ahead because you'd be struggling.

12:58and you will not click with the mainstream, which is the most important aspect. Yeah, but PR days were really humbling, right? So the restaurant was busy. We got great accolades. But ultimately, it was really hard to make P &L work. You know, I really didn't. Throughout my entire career, I never really looked at P &L. I looked at faces of our customers, how to make them smile, how to make them happy. So we're very good at that. You know, I think critics were happy as well as our customers. But ultimately, the financial infrastructure, you know, corporate infrastructure was very not stable, which led to like perfect example of it looks busy.

13:44Simon's making a lot of money with the Michelin star fine dining restaurant in West Village. But behind the scenes, I couldn't I had like a couple hundred dollars in my checking account and couldn't pay bills. So I had to do Irish goodbyes. So I think restaurant people can really resonate. It looks like alluring, like things are going really well, but behind the scenes, it's not what it seems like.

14:09Simon Kim:It's also proof that you fail once, there can be a second act, and it can really succeed and to not give up. Absolutely. I think that perseverance is the most important thing, right? Because you may hit it well on the first one. You may not, right? but i feel like the lesson you learn from being on that stage is so great to actually do something else you know i mean like how much did you invest in that first attempt yeah and whether it went right or wrong you learned so much i feel like the second one the the probability of you getting that right it's so much greater to a point where to to give up and do something else like you know I feel like it's a big opportunity lost What's your favorite pizza in New York?

15:04Simon Kim:Hot take, I don't like pizza Hot take, but there's gotta be one You just don't like it Man, you just don't, I'm like doing a little double take, you just don't like pizza I'm sorry, I mean I really wanna like pizza, I'm New Yorker and I do business and I wanna geek out on pizza, but whenever I eat pizza I'm like, it's good good you know i like i like all types of pizza i like neapolitan style new york style yeah you know i like dominoes but like when you when somebody asked me what do i what do i want to eat i've never said i want to eat pizza i love the the love the candor i love the honesty i think that i'm reading a little bit like maybe you just don't the like putting pizza on a pedestal is maybe not your thing too yeah i mean i'm really hungry yeah nearby i definitely will crush a slice or two with Coke and I put a bunch of onion powder and Parmesan cheese on the crust.

15:59But if I had to choose, I grew up in a town called Manhasset in Long Island. Going to high school, I had I think back then it was either 75 cents or$1.75 for a slice. There was two competition, Geno's and Villa Milano. I was a Villa Milano guy. There you go.

16:22Simon Kim:I love the flashback. What restaurant industry person do you admire the most? Thomas Keller always is that guy, right? He's kind of the shining symbol of excellence in our business. I also love Rich. Rich Torisi, what he's doing with Torisi. So cool. Very New York, very daring, very excellent. Those are great. What's been the greatest restaurant experience of your life so far? I think my first time at Blue Hill at Stone Barns, I think was probably the most crazy moment. It was just that trip made me hungry and made me intake away from the city of this natures and whatnot. And you know what, Dan Barber and, you know, Philip Guz, who's the Furnit House partner.

17:19And back then, COO of a major food group now, Will Nazar, was the sommelier at Blue Hill. And I went there and I think just like everything stopped for a moment, right? His approach to that farm to table. every this sounds so uh like farm to table doesn't feel the same you know back when uh it was

17:45Simon Kim:original at the time it feels like a little bit it's been tread on a bit a little bit been done it's so it's only like they create a genre right they create a genre and category starter and i think that really kind of made that like truly a giant impact what is your greatest professional achievement? The greatest professional achievement? I think being able to partake in this Korean wave, if you will. I feel like before us, Korean food was not where it is today. I remember having a conversation with my landlord of Coat, who didn't want to give me the space because Korean barbecue you fancy doesn't work.

18:28I remember writing to her an email, a desperate plea. Please let me be your tenant. And I ended the conversation email with, fast forward 10 years when Korean food is mainstream, a popular cuisine, you can look back at this moment and take credit that you gave us an opportunity. So I'm really grateful to see Korean cuisine where it is, you know, what, you know, all of the amazing chefs and restaurateurs are doing collaboratively to uplift our cuisine and how that has resonated with mainstream America. I'm beyond honored.

19:12Simon Kim:It's incredible thought and cool story about telling that to your landlord. I hear stories about that as well. It's like a decade ago, just Korean cuisine, just not getting respect from the industry and people not understanding this way that was coming. It's amazing to see it iterated within the fine dining world. That is the biggest surprise for me. I mean, I could have said like 10 years ago that, yes, there will be more dougboki on tables because it's a delicious food, it's accessible, and it should be there. But fine dining? Can you ever have imagined? Not at all. Not at all. But that was the attempt, right?

19:48Korean barbecue always existed, always popular. But I looked at it almost like an Italian food and French food, right? There's always been bistro or trattoria and osteria. There was a room for brezzerie or restaurante. So Korean barbecue existed, but we wanted to bring Korean steakhouse where you can take your clients to, where you can dress up and actually have an evening out. And I think almost like a brasserie experience with a more developed wine list and cocktail list and ambiance and whatnot. And I think that really hit. Another story is, you know, I wrote that to my landlord, but I also met with Pentagram.

20:32So Pentagram has been doing all of our design. Identity. And, you know, they do things like Saturday Night Lives. You know, they did Citibank logos. They work with this giant corporations that really. And I remember, you know, this is three years before I opened Code. So it was like this is 11 years ago. And I remember Emily Oberman. That's the partner that I have a pleasure of working with. She basically like got me in and looked at me and said, Simon, why do you want to work with Pentagram? and I knew this was the moment that I had to really and I remember telling her so Korean food currently is at you know I think I compared to stock price it's like a$50 stock price Thai cuisine even Vietnamese cuisine is above our thing and there's a Chinese cuisine and there's a Japanese cuisine and our attempt is to bring that up to that level who but Pentagram to help us get there and make it into a global thing and that's where it started.

21:37And she was like, I work with these giant corporations that allows us to work with passionate people, albeit I didn't have any money, to work with. And then she's been a great partner of us since.

21:51Simon Kim:So you sold her on the idea. Did she have much experience with Korean food before then? Not at all. I don't think so at all. And so now she comes to code. Yeah, no, she comes to code. And we're very grateful now with CocoDoc. And we have a lot of work. We're in Venetian. So I feel like her investment into a passionate young restaurateur aspiring has also worked out well for all of us, including her, Korean cuisine, and New York dining scene. And hopefully we can continue the ride. Yeah, exactly. I have no doubt you will. if you could go back in time and visit a restaurant when and where? I actually want to go all the way back like all the way back to kind of like beginning of like human race sort of a vibe I love primal aspects you know Korean barbecue, Korean steakhouse there's a fire, there's meat, there's wine we get to eat and drink I want to really experience that so what it's like to go hunting bring home the winning and then sitting around bonfire and hopefully there are some people in the cave that has a fermented grape juice.

23:06Simon Kim:I really want to see what that's like. I like that. Maybe there's some tenjun in there too, some fermented beans. That'd be freaking awesome. I love that answer. It's cool. It's like an unexpected answer for that question. I think for what you do, it makes a lot of sense to want to see the origins of the human race and how food works into that. But what is your wish for the restaurant industry? It's hard, right? Because restaurant business is just so hard. I just want to let every listener understand how hard restaurant business really is. No matter how it looks fun and successful or whatnot, it's always just...

23:45I'm sure all other businesses are tough to run, right? But restaurant business, the more I learn about different industries, the more I realize how difficult food business is, right? So the wish that I have is, and I have it on myself as well as my company, as well as everyone, is I feel like we can't lose why we started to doing this. I just want to remind myself and everybody else that we got into this business to please people, to bring delight to people, so I wish our industry can focus more on that because it's so easy, again, speaking for myself, to focus on other things like making more money, being able to expand more things.

24:38I want to just remind myself and the industry, let's focus on pleasing our customers and giving better experience to both our customers and our staff.

24:47Simon Kim:Yeah, well said. I think the margin and the drive for expansion are two things that sometimes overshadow the human experience of restaurant. It's hard though. It is, you know, staying alive is so hard. So sometimes you forget that survival instinct pushes you through beyond. And, you know, so it's always you have to, because you have to at the end of the day survive in order for us to continuously provide happiness to our customers. So that balancing the yin and the yang, the balancing act, I think is the most important thing for us. What do you do well? I'm good with people. I find good talents.