733: Building Santo Taco with Santiago Perez

14:54Santiago Perez:Totally. I think when I had the mushroom taco, I did that habanero on top, which was really good. And the mushroom taco I also really love because the mushrooms are so juicy and plump. They still have so much body when you bite into them.

15:06Daisy Alioto:Absolutely. That was also something that we wanted to showcase in the mushrooms. We landed in a combination of shiitake and cremini, and we marinate them in sort of a chimichurri salsa. And it's delicious. I'm very happy that you like them.

15:23Santiago Perez:I feel like mushroom taco, when I see it on a menu, is something I always order because it just is one of my, like, I love mushrooms and I love tacos. So the combination is like the elusive thing I'm always looking for.

15:34Matt:Absolutely. This episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. We spend a lot of time on the show talking about where food comes from, the sourcing, the origin, the story behind what ends up on your plate. This is why I'm legitimately glad to be working with ButcherBox. ButcherBox delivers over 100 premium protein options straight to your door, including 100 % grass-fed beef, free-range organic chicken, crate-free pork, and wild-caught seafood. For over a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free, hormone-free, and independently verified. It's the clean, trustworthy protein you want to be eating, especially in this era where protein is more important than ever.

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17:12Matt:That depth of knowledge is the thing I find endlessly fascinating. And honestly, it's a big part of why I'm into Masterclass. There are classes taught by some of the best chefs, writers, and thinkers in the world. People who've put in the work. And the lessons are short enough that I can actually fit them in. Thought leaders like Michael Lewis, Amy Poehler, and chefs Gordon Ramsay and Roy Choi all teach their own masterclasses. I've been using audio mode on my commute, and it genuinely feels like time well spent. With plans starting at$10 a month, billed annually, you get unlimited access to over 200 classes.

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18:04Santiago Perez:Have you been to Tacos 1986?

18:07Daisy Alioto:Yes, they're close friends of mine.

18:09Santiago Perez:Yeah? I love their ones in L.A., and when they opened in the West Village, I got really excited because they do the Mushroom Vampiro, and it's so cool.

18:15Daisy Alioto:Oh, yes, absolutely. They're doing great. I really love visiting them.

18:20Santiago Perez:Yeah.

18:21Daisy Alioto:And I mean, it's not only them. I think the landscape in New York has really exploded. I'm very happy to see that. Just to draw some parallel, like back when I started at least my career in hospitality back in 2014, there was not a lot of people doing, in that instance, fine dining Mexican food. So we were one of the first ones to do that. Like I'm very happy to be building Santo Taco in a city that already the Mexican offering is so diverse at every price point. So in a way, it feels a bit refreshing because I am able to just present my take on things and focus on being proud of what I'm doing instead of, you know, like any reference points that may or may not be in the market.

19:13Totally.

19:14Santiago Perez:I feel like Taqueria Ramirez and Marisco Sumarino, there are so many places that I love to go to. And also, I think so many New Yorkers have fallen in love with Mexico City and going to visit there. When you opened Santo Taco and you started getting feedback from people, do you feel like there's a kind of expectation that New York City diners have or more of an understanding about what a good taco is or what a Mexico City style taqueria looks like?

19:39Daisy Alioto:Absolutely. I mean, I think more of an expectation. I think taking a step back, Mexico City is one of the oldest cities in America. Of course, it's always been a cosmopolitan, giant city and serves as a boiling pot of different cultures and specifically as where all the regional cuisines of Mexico converge. So I don't think that a Mexico City style taqueria or Mexico City inspired taqueria means much.

20:14Santiago Perez:Yeah.

20:15Daisy Alioto:I know it's been used a lot. I guess it sounds like a good punchline. But I think everyone's doing what they like. Most of the guys that you mentioned are friends of mine. And they're all, you know, trying their best and doing their own interpretation of what Mexican taqueria can be. And I think that's very exciting. It's a good place to be eating Mexican food in New York.

20:44Santiago Perez:Totally. And I think the fact that people are able to do more regionality. I grew up in Los Angeles. I think like what makes L.A. such a great place to eat Mexican food is that there are so many different styles of Mexican food that are happening there.

20:56Daisy Alioto:Absolutely. In many ways, New York didn't have great tacos for the past probably 15 years. And now I think New York is catching up to LA and that is something wonderful.

21:12Santiago Perez:Yeah. We've talked a little bit about some of the components of what makes a great taco. I'm curious about the tortillas that you're using. Where are they coming from and how did you kind of land on them?

21:22Daisy Alioto:Yeah, I mean, it was one of the easiest decisions that I had to make on Santo Taco because we established an amazing relationship with Masienda, with Jorge Gaviria. We were literally his first client with Cosme back in 2013. So it felt like very natural to continue that path. we decided to also focus exclusively on corn. It's about, again, quality instead of quantity. And in a way, we're trying to keep things as tight and short as possible. And I think the fact that we're not using flour is just a preference. often people refer to, oh, like corn leans more about authenticity, whereas the flour, it's like the northern states closer to the U.S.

22:28Daisy Alioto:Again, I think this is just like different regional cuisines and perhaps one day we're going to incorporate flour into the menu, but the corn is at the center of Santo Taco for the moment.

22:41Santiago Perez:Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense just with what you're saying about wanting to have a tight menu. If you introduce a different tortilla, then everything changes, right? The bite is completely different. The flavors are different.

22:52Daisy Alioto:Absolutely. And there are, in my opinion, tacos that lend itself much better with corn than with flour and vice versa. So if and when we start doing flour, we're probably going to have a strong point of view on which one goes with which.

23:13Santiago Perez:Yeah. What's a taco you think is better with a flour tortilla?

23:17Daisy Alioto:I think the, well, the carne asada, I think it's better. There's something about the smokiness of the meat with a more indulgent sense of the flour. Whereas, for example, our pork carnitas taco, it's already so rich with fat that it feels like an overkill to add flour. I don't think these, I mean, you can't argue with someone on their preferences, but we pride ourselves on taking a point of view on how we like to present things.

23:54Santiago Perez:Totally. I think with that point of view, there's only one Agua Fresca on the menu, which is kind of unusual. How did you decide on that?

24:01Daisy Alioto:Yeah, well, a lot of friends in the taqueria business told me, oh, you need to have like hibiscus and horchata. You need to. And I was just like, why? No, like the one thing I know, I wanted to have like real fruit in the agua fresca. And that's what we did. We came up with a recipe that incorporated pineapple during the warm months and plays with seasonality and switches it up for kiwi in the winter. We only need one. I think we strive for simplicity and a shorter menu that we can execute at a higher standard each time. I think with the team, it's also important a shorter menu allows for cross-training.

24:57Daisy Alioto:So like if you are working in Santo Taco, you are very likely to know how to assemble all different tacos, how to make the agua fresca, how to prep the salsas. And to the extent that you keep the menu very tight, you're able to have everyone specialize on it.

25:16Santiago Perez:Yeah, I think it is such a delicious agua fresca. When I had it for the first time, it was one of the hottest days of the summer, probably. And it felt almost like a lime Gatorade to me in terms of that refreshing, hydrating kind of agua fresca.

25:29Daisy Alioto:Absolutely. And one of the things we added to it is we infuse it with a Palo Santo, which for those who don't know, it's a Mexican variety of wood that's typically burned as incense, but we infuse our water for a somewhat smoky feeling. And it was also fun to use it because not of a name, you know, Palo Santo and Santo Taco felt like very natural going together.

25:55Santiago Perez:It's a holy agua fresca.

25:56Daisy Alioto:Yeah, exactly.

25:57Santiago Perez:How do you infuse it with the Palo Santo?

26:00Daisy Alioto:We just, I mean, put a few pieces of Palo Santo. Just in the water. In the water. Yeah, I mean, very simple.

26:08Santiago Perez:Yeah, infused, I think, made me think about maybe it was being lit and then like tossed into the water or something like that. Yeah. I don't think I've ever, I've had like a cocktail maybe that had like Palo Santo smoke in it before. But I don't know if I've ever had it in agua fresca form. It's really fun.

26:25Daisy Alioto:Well, you've had it, no?

26:27Santiago Perez:Yeah, well, and before. Oh, before. But certainly at Santo Taco.

26:32Daisy Alioto:Absolutely.

26:32Santiago Perez:Something that I found really interesting is that you opened two locations in the same first year of being in business. The one that's down in Soho and then one up by Union Square. What was the intentionality behind that? And are you trying to keep opening more?

26:47Daisy Alioto:Well, the first one that we opened in Soho, the one that you've probably been, it's an iconic corner. It's one that is a wonderful experience, but primarily in the warmer months. It has very limited indoor seating. So when the opportunity came to do a bit of a larger full version of Santo Taco in a neighborhood that I also love, which is Greenwich Village. Also in a corner that has a lot of history, such as our Union Square location. It was a no-brainer. I don't think the intention is just to keep opening more locations for the sake of it. There would need to be a good reason for the time being.

27:38Daisy Alioto:We are fully focused on just ensuring we deliver the best experience. And at the same time, I mean, we keep our ears open if there are great iconic corners that are good places to take the Santo Taco experience, we would love to consider it. The one thing I'll say is there is something great about being able to walk between them. So anything that we do, I think that would be a good framework to think about it. We would need to be able to walk between the Santos.

28:20Santiago Perez:That makes a lot of sense. But as someone who lives in Brooklyn, that I think you should consider because I would like more salsa tacos in Brooklyn as well.

28:27Daisy Alioto:One day, maybe. But right now we're just focused in building community in the neighborhoods that we are in and just to continue being part of a conversation in the taco landscape in New York.

28:43Santiago Perez:Totally. When you spend time in the restaurants, like, are you on the line? Are you listening to feedback from customers? Like, what are you doing?

28:52Daisy Alioto:Well, we have established already a great team. So my priority when I'm in the restaurants is just to try to talk to as many guests as possible. I think we have the advantage of receiving like live feedback from all of them. So I think understanding what their preferences are, their perception is from us and then taking that and working with our team to ensure we just continue to improve is my main focus when I'm in the restaurants. I purposely don't have an office or anything like that. Like my entire day are spent on the taquerias. And if you don't find me there, I'm probably eating in different restaurants or maybe just running because I've been recently on a marathon training plan.

29:48Daisy Alioto:So all that I'm doing now is eating tacos and running.

29:51Santiago Perez:That seems like a very symbiotic relationship between the two.

29:55Daisy Alioto:Absolutely.

29:56Santiago Perez:Which marathon are you going to run?

29:58Daisy Alioto:I'm running London this April, but my first one was New York last November.

30:04Santiago Perez:Oh, how was it?

30:05Daisy Alioto:It was amazing, although I think I wouldn't recommend running a marathon and opening a restaurant in the same week. It felt like a lot of stress. I mean, good stress, but a lot of it. So I'm very much looking forward to London that we have no openings or anything in sight.

30:25Santiago Perez:That, I think, seems a little bit more manageable. I think the New York City Marathon is my favorite day of the year, not as a runner, but just as someone who likes to cheer them on. I live in Fort Greene, which is, I think, a really good part of the race.

30:39Daisy Alioto:Absolutely. It's one of the areas where the marathon goes through that you can feel the most energy.

30:46Santiago Perez:Yeah, I'm glad to hear you say that because obviously everyone thinks that their section of the route is the best. But there's just so many people on the streets and it's always so like the light is so beautiful. The leaves are falling.

30:58Daisy Alioto:Absolutely.

30:59Santiago Perez:Maybe I cheered you on and we don't even know.

31:01Daisy Alioto:Maybe, yeah, yeah. Especially because that part of the race gets very narrow. It's wonderful to feel the energy, but not great for runners sometimes because it gets really, really crowded.

31:13Santiago Perez:Yeah, people are just like getting in the street. they're not doing what they're supposed to do. I try to be on my friend's stoop, so I'm not in the way too much, but that's very fair. I'm curious, when you are not at your own restaurants eating tacos, how much time are you going to other taco places and eating tacos?

31:33Daisy Alioto:I try to visit at least one new restaurant every week, whether it's a taqueria or a new fine dining restaurant. So exploring new spots is like something that I really like and pay attention to. I must say, like over the past six months, I've tried a lot of new taquerias in New York. And it just fills me with a lot of joy that there's so much activity in the taco world. And I'm sure there is a lot more to come.

32:09Santiago Perez:Yeah, I hope you know something I don't know. but I think either way, new openings are always happening.

32:15Daisy Alioto:Absolutely, yeah.

32:16Santiago Perez:Do you think the Mexico City food scene has evolved a lot as well since the last time you were back there in 2020, maybe when you were starting to think about what the restaurant would look like?

32:28Daisy Alioto:Yeah, I think, I mean, I would say over the past 10 years, it's started to evolve a lot more. You can see a lot of new places opening up and chefs, especially young chefs, doing their own interpretations of whatever cuisine they're trying to pursue. I think there is a lot more confidence down there and you can feel on how concepts that before were seen as too innovative or risky, like now they're thriving. Definitely since 2020, I think the rising popularity of tourists, especially from the US, has played a bit of a role shaping them. But no, I think it's a very diverse and dynamic city and very exciting to be eating in.

33:27Santiago Perez:Totally. I think as someone who loves to eat food, it's my favorite city to go to. There's just so much to eat, it's hard to even know where to start. And I guess in that spirit, I'm wondering if you have a couple of Mexico City recommendations that you would be willing to share.

33:41Daisy Alioto:Yeah, well, I'm someone that people often ask a lot for recommendations. So I have all sorts of lists, but my personal favorites, especially recently, I really like Ultramarinos from Chef Lucho. He's a good friend. He's doing something amazing with seafood. Also El Danubio, a 60-year-old restaurant in the historic center, cooking amazing, also seafood, Spanish-leaning food. Odette for coffee and pastries, and also Ticucci for Mexican botanas, and what I think is the best agave bar in the city.

34:31Santiago Perez:Totally. I love recommending the kind of more old school spots in Mexico City. I think there are obviously so many exciting new places that open up, but I think my most memorable meals in Mexico City have been like a long lunch at a really old school spot where the waiters feel like they've been there forever. And it's just like such a specific sense of time and place.

34:51Daisy Alioto:Absolutely. And something that we don't really see often in New York is like the concept of sobremesa, which is after your lunch, just staying with friends over some drinks the entire afternoon. So I particularly love these places in Mexico City that have been there for a very long time and that are known for their sobremesa. I'll give you also a few recommendations along these lines.

35:17Santiago Perez:Oh, I would love that. I think the extended hangout is something that people just don't have time for in New York in the same kind of way. And also restaurants here really like they need to move tables and keep everyone in. But when you can really enjoy that Sol Bremessa, I think it is such a beautiful experience.

35:33Daisy Alioto:Absolutely. Absolutely.

35:34Santiago Perez:I want to play a rapid fire game to close today. So I'm going to have you pick some favorites. You can just say the first thing that comes to mind.

35:41Daisy Alioto:Okay.

35:42Santiago Perez:Okay. A favorite cookbook right now.

35:48Daisy Alioto:Vegetable Simple by Eric Ruppert. Nice. Classic. Classic.

35:53Santiago Perez:Your favorite season for cooking?

35:58Daisy Alioto:Summer. There's something about open fire, grilling with friends, just simple ingredients that I really enjoy.

36:09Santiago Perez:Your go-to bodega snack?

36:13Daisy Alioto:A bacon, egg, and cheese burrito, especially after a long run.

36:19Santiago Perez:Your favorite quick lunch place in New York?

36:24Daisy Alioto:I mean, a few, but one that always delivers is Bar Pitti in the village. I think the simplicity of the food and people watching is wonderful.

36:37Santiago Perez:Totally. Your favorite special occasion spot in New York? Penny.

36:43Daisy Alioto:I love counter restaurants. It's just about interacting more with the people preparing the food. The quality and execution of especially seafood that they're doing there is incredible. I also happen to live very close by, so whenever I can get a reservation, I definitely go.

37:07Santiago Perez:A favorite spot for tacos in Mexico City?

37:12Daisy Alioto:It must be La Once Mil. It's a new taqueria. It's been open for one year, but it's from a dear friend, Chef Cesar de la Parra. It's also a friend that I often talk shop with a lot. He has a great focus on quality and he takes, in a way, risks of putting very premium ingredients in their tacos and has really shifted or elevated what street taqueria can be. Definitely one that I will recommend to you as well.

37:51Santiago Perez:Do you have a favorite taco there?

37:53Daisy Alioto:A few, but he recently launched a Japanese A5 Wagyu taco on a flour tortilla. It's like wonderful. It's also very controversial because it's a little bit expensive. But I think as a one every couple of months, like it's definitely something that I recommend. A treat taco. A treat taco, yes.

38:20Santiago Perez:Okay, a taco that you think should be more widely known outside of Mexico?

38:27Daisy Alioto:Cochinita pibil. It's from southeast Mexico, primarily Yucatan. It's a slow roasted pork typically cooked in a hole in the ground. And it's delicious and I don't know why more people are not eating it in the States.

38:45Santiago Perez:Because we don't have holes in the ground to cook it in.

38:47Daisy Alioto:Yeah, yeah. Well, there are other ways. There are some ways.

38:49Santiago Perez:Yeah, I feel like barbacoa similarly is like, I love a good barbacoa taco and it's hard to find in New York because people don't have the space to make it happen. Yeah. Okay, final question. A fictional food scene, like from a book or a movie or something made up that you wish that you could magically eat in real life?

39:07Daisy Alioto:Well, it's a scene from a movie, Meet Joe Black. It's one of my favorite movies, and it's when Anthony Hopkins, his 65th birthday, and throws a giant party before departing onto the next life. It's about celebration and being surrounded by the loved ones in a wonderful setting with great food. So that definitely comes to my mind.

39:37Santiago Perez:That's very sweet. And this has been such a fun conversation, Santiago. Thank you so much for coming on. Of course, Alisa.

39:42Daisy Alioto:It's a pleasure. Thank you.

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41:46Matt:Daisy Aliotto, welcome back to This Is Taste. Love having you in the studio.

41:51Santiago Perez:Thanks for having me.

41:52Matt:Huge fan of what you do. Like dirt. I like Tasteland. I've been on the show once. Love to come back.

41:57Santiago Perez:I was going to say, is this you marketing yourself for a second appearance?

42:01Matt:It's not a ploy for that. I just enjoy talking with you, to be honest. And when we have mics in our faces, it's even better. I think you're a clear voice in media in terms of like media strategy. You've written and done talks about strategies a little behind the scenes. So we'll talk about food media in 2026. But also just like what you publish is terrific. Like it's so varied and interesting. And you cultivate writers from all over the world in many different spaces. So congrats.

42:28Santiago Perez:Thank you.

42:28Matt:Before we get to the media talk, shop talk, where have you been dining out recently?

42:35Santiago Perez:So last night I went to SEMA for the first time. I was taking out a group of people who are acting as advisors for Dirt Books, which is our new publishing imprint.

42:46Matt:We haven't even talked about that. Wow.

42:48Santiago Perez:We can get into it if we have time. And we had a couple of vegetarians in the group. So I was looking for something at the intersection of fine dining and vegetarian friendly. And Sama came up and it was one of the rare times that I actually sit on Res E waiting for a reservation to open, which is typically not a culture that I like to engage in. Yeah. But it felt worth it for this special occasion. And it was a really nice time. And I did pregame by going to KFC at like 3 p.m.

43:21Matt:Yo. So is the order, are you doing boxes and biscuits or what's that?

43:25Santiago Perez:I like the spicy chicken sandwich.

43:27Matt:Dude, definitely. I didn't want to come into it hungry because it was a sharing situation.

43:33Santiago Perez:I also felt as the person organizing the dinner that I needed to be very clear. and not influenced by my own hunger. And indeed, I did end up being the one to make the order, which is, as you know, at a group dinner, if you're looking around the table, I'm like, okay, does everyone trust me? Everyone's said what sounds good to them. I'm going to be the person who on the spot lists all of it out when the waitress comes back. And it's a high-pressure situation. So yeah, I pre-gamed with KFC. That ended up being a good choice. We did order, I would say, almost the exact right amount of food. There was a little bit of extra.

44:12Matt:That's nice.

44:13Santiago Perez:And I will tell you my favorite things that we had were the beef short ribs.

44:18Matt:So good.

44:19Santiago Perez:And then the branzino I thought was fantastic.

44:21Matt:I've had short ribs at the unapologetic group, and I love what I've had. I've never been to SEMA. So I like this idea that you go into a business dinner as the host not really thinking about food because you're kind of talking to people too. Yeah. And like it's challenging because you want some is like a really well regarded restaurant. You want to enjoy it. But it's like kind of a work dinner.

44:42Santiago Perez:Nobody had met each other before.

44:44Matt:That is.

44:45Santiago Perez:Yeah.

44:45Matt:You had to have some drinks early.

44:47Santiago Perez:No, I don't think anyone required that much like warming up because it's everyone had like really big commonalities in like the literary and writing and media world that they could talk about. So, I mean, we went around the table and just talked about, I asked people to talk about what they're working on right now that they're most excited about. But it was not hard to facilitate conversation.

45:13Matt:I think it's a good point that you start with like an icebreaker question and then you kind of like let it go. That's a smart way to open up a dinner. I feel sometimes you're just like stuck there and it's like weather talk. No. No. No weather talk. Thank God. God, there's so much weather talk going on right now. We'll end it here. All right. Lots to talk about. But before we get to media stuff, for our listeners who don't know, and I'm linking to Dirt in the show notes, Tasteland in the show notes, how do you describe your company right now?

45:43Santiago Perez:I describe it as a media and technology company. I've been really into that umbrella lately. Yeah, yeah. I think every media company goes through different phases of describing themselves in a different way, but that's the current Instagram bio. Okay.

45:59Matt:So you're a technology company. But I think of it like being like you are a publisher of great work using like great UX, innovative design, et cetera, et cetera. Right now, how is that working out? Like what is the way – like how do you monetize Dirt?

46:20Santiago Perez:Dirt is primarily monetized through partnerships. I think I came into Dirt wanting to do different technical experiments at the time they were on the blockchain around what makes people pay for stuff and how do you create a value in this container of a subscription. And over time, and obviously technology has rapidly evolved and the landscape looks very different now with AI, I've just started to believe that the idea of a subscription itself is very outdated. And I think we're heading into an era that will be known as a post-subscription economy. And you mentioned, you know, before we came on the mic, you know, what is the landscape going to look like when it's kind of the New York Times left standing or something like that?

47:11Santiago Perez:A few sort of hegemonic publications. I think that those publications and the idea of a subscription to the New York Times makes a ton of sense. The idea of paying$5 to 30 writers who are great writers for a sub stack does not make sense. And the reason it doesn't make sense— A month we're talking about, too. Well, it's also just a really inefficient – it's an inefficient use of our entertainment budget, and it's also an inefficient use of people's attention. The decision whether to subscribe or not subscribe to something when that decision is, like, along that binary is – it's a tax on your attention because it's a decision that you need to make.

47:56Santiago Perez:And right now there's all this interesting stuff happening around basically charging tolls to these agents, these AI agents that are crawling the internet. We have ways like deeper in the internet than you and I typically like interact with as a consumer. So like on the level of Cloudflare, which is how a lot of sites are gating their traffic and handling their traffic, they now have the capability to basically say like to this AI agent that might be crawling on behalf of Claude or choose your like LLM of choice, you know, pay the toll to get past the paywall. And that was the original idea of micropayments, which have never worked.

48:37Santiago Perez:And I think a lot of people have tried and failed to do micropayments. Like everyone has woken up one day and been like, why can't I pay a dollar to read a Bloomberg article? And for a long time, there was all these like technical and banking reasons why it wasn't practical. Then it became practical, but it still didn't catch on. And I thought for a long time it's because there's no status in it. Like it's not a cool thing to brag about. But what I really think what it is now is it's nobody wants to have their attention fragmented across all of these micro decisions. And so I've been working on for the last year is a product that lets people read and consume as they would normally and have an AI to pay for that content on their behalf.

49:23Santiago Perez:And I think that's where subscriptions are headed. And you can see like I think this idea of paying$20 a month to Netflix or Spotify is going to look really archaic. And as like our chat and search interfaces that we're using that resemble LLMs pay for things on a usage basis and a liquid basis, people are going to want to pay for Netflix based on how much Netflix they actually watched. because I'm right now, I barely watch Netflix and I'm just subsidizing the person who like can't eat dinner without a show on.

49:54Matt:There's a lot of chilling going on in those house sales. It's a very interesting point about having an agent like purchase these one-off articles for you and the idea of having either an agent do it as an all-you-can-eat model, right? And paying them like$30 a month to get anything on the internet for free. I'm sure someone will have that model.

50:10Santiago Perez:It's like the Apple News model.

50:12Matt:Exactly, Apple News, but Apple News for everything. Sexier. A little sexier. Or just saying, like, just take care of the gate. Treat it like an easy pass where it's like you just basically reload. And if that number is, like, unfortunate, you can, like, scale down your consumption. But like easy pass, most people just pay it.

50:29Santiago Perez:Yeah, well, I know how much I'm willing to spend on entertainment a month. It's just I'm very bad at being the arbiter of where it should be spent. So there's certain sub stacks that I pay for out of obligation or, like, because I've always paid for it. but maybe I don't read it.

50:46Matt:Like you know the person knows that you.

50:48Santiago Perez:Well, just canceling feels so aggressive. It feels like a referendum on that person, which feels unfair. But then there's other people, writers who I read all the time. I've never paid them a dollar.

51:00Matt:Yeah, I know. That's the problem. I think you just have to rip it, rip it and rip it and unsubscribe.

51:04Santiago Perez:I think if I could set my entertainment budget that an AI agent would actually allocate it a much more efficient.

51:10Matt:Well, they would know what you're interested in.

51:12Santiago Perez:They would do it because they would know what I was actually reading.

51:14Matt:I mean, do you look at your unsubs for dirt? I mean, I'm just – we're getting into psychology of the unsub. I feel like I don't – when people – like, I have a sub stack, whatever, a couple thousand. But, like, I don't look at my unsubs. So I don't know if people are actually looking at that.

51:29Santiago Perez:The number with Beehive, the number is right there in the dashboard when you go in. I try not to look at it because it makes me feel bad.

51:37Matt:Yeah.

51:37Santiago Perez:I will say, like, there are individual people who have noticed unsubscribing and it hurt. So you do look. Okay. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I see it. Sometimes not on purpose. Yeah. I mean, it's always going to be painful. I think it's a lot more painful, though, if you have a smaller list, which is why I have really tried not to unsubscribe from it.

51:59Matt:Yeah, you feel it in a different way than myself. Well, I think it's a good segue to talk about food media is very interesting. 2026. I just kind of want to first get into like, right now, we're at this era of, of like startup culture within media, food media, like it's been years since we've seen so many things pop up. you know Emily Sundberg wrote about a great white space opportunity in food media on the audio side and also in like the digital like publishing side and I agree. I think that there's definitely like ways that publishers can do new things and there's like legacies that aren't doing the best.

52:37Matt:I wanted to ask you about this like crop of startups. You know Caper just started putting out their first few letters. There's the Gourmet-ish. I'm going to call it that because it's like the name is Gourmet. We know the story, but it's not quite gourmet. It's something very different, and I like what they're doing. Best Food Blog is on there as well. I know you watch these things, and I know you have thoughts. So what are you thinking? Yeah, I think caper is really stylish.

53:07Santiago Perez:I like it. What made me like it is very superficial, which is that I got an email that I had. I was on the list to be among the people to receive the first one, and I was like, oh, okay. So I like that, obviously. And that came from Annie because I had followed her at Wet Paint. I think there's – it's going to sound like a cop-out. There can be white space for something, but to me the only true white space is an area that people like pay for. And I really like any following any news media startup because I think like it's more data information about the way people who consume media see the world.

53:57but I just wonder

54:01Santiago Perez:can something narrowly focused on food that resembles kind of the same dynamics as like a puck or an airmail succeed where a puck or an airmail failed and I think they definitely could I think they could do it by raising less money they could do it by hiring fewer people but it remains to be seen like what is the what is the novel mechanic or secret learning of each of these startups people spend money going out to eat yeah will they spend money reading about other people going out to eat or what's happening in those kitchens i don't know

54:48Matt:I read from there I think I've read two Chris Crawley did one Emma Orlov did one and then your friend at Wet Paint Annie Annie who I've not met and great Tonewise is very unique like it's not it's not what you're getting at like a Vox Media newsletter it's not what you're getting from a Taste newsletter it's very different I think that the impulse is scoops driven the way that like a Semaphore airmail not airmail Puck would be kind of in that world of like there's news being done Lauren Sherman's line sheet, but for food. And like that's early Eater. And like that's Eater like.

55:24Santiago Perez:Right. So did we reinvent Eater during the decline of Eater? And why would that succeed when Eater didn't succeed?

55:30Matt:Different era. And I think submodels were frictionless or were full friction now and now they're quite frictionless. I think if probably Ben Leventhal back at Eater had the ability to pay, charge people to get those death watches back then. And it was like super frictionless. It would have happened. Like everyone in the industry was reading it. And I like current iteration of Eater. Like I really like – I've enjoyed the feature reporting and I like the team there. So it's no disrespect to them. But there was just like an edge about Eater in those early days that I think Caper is kind of channeling.

56:02Matt:And it comes down to reporting. And between Chris and Emma and Annie and others, I'm very optimistic. I'm looking forward to reading it personally.

56:12Santiago Perez:I think gossip, scoops, gossip.

56:15Matt:Scoop's gossip, yeah.

56:17Santiago Perez:Scoop is the gentrified gossip.

56:20Matt:Very, very well said.

56:21Santiago Perez:It's a good edge. People pay for it if it helps them have edge in their business or, I guess, have something to talk about at a cocktail party. Yeah. And I think those subscription behaviors look more like other consumer patterns, like the K-shaped economy of people either paying like an arm and a leg to go to the U.S. Open because like that's what it costs or just opting out. And so I guess it's hard for me to interpret because I'm like not really on the correct side of that K. I'm often like shocked what people pay for but yeah I'm also shocked what people don't pay for based on their stated values and it will be interesting to see the correlation between people who have money and are status seeking for the inside track on food media in particular that do not work in the food industry because I know that we'll get to this but like the people who work in restaurants are not the target audience my biggest question for caper

57:28Matt:and it's a small sample size is like who's this for because like is it if it's only from like people who are interested in restaurant churn and chef churn that's pretty small i would say um if it's like media news it's even smaller i know they're like anti-listical which i think is interesting that they're just like not doing service it's all about the news i think it like what who's it for i think it's for people who like live in cities that have vibrant restaurant scenes which is like literally everywhere who want inside tracks on what's happening in that world be it the new startup restaurant group or interesting uses of merchandising merchandise

58:08Santiago Perez:merch um or it's not a big audience though that's the thing it's not a big audience yeah but i guess like maybe max can just raise the minimum amount of money that he needs run it lean and then flip

58:20Matt:it to like the financial time yeah exactly like somebody might scoop it up from that world um i love airmail though of course they're like they're crushing it for me what is airmail without grayden

58:29Santiago Perez:though i read that shit every saturday man but has it changed yes maybe a little bit but honestly

58:34Matt:they it's just what i want to read i want to read nostalgia i stopped reading it as soon as he left Really? I mean.

58:40Santiago Perez:I just like. I love true crime in print.

58:44Matt:They do a good job there.

58:45Santiago Perez:The mix is the same. But I realized like for me it was getting an email from Green and Carter.

58:53Matt:No, it was of course. And it really was a big part of it.

58:55Santiago Perez:I also thought it wasn't respectful. It's not respectful. It was not a respectable or dignified end to the era of that publication. and I think dignity is really important to me.

59:12Matt:Yeah.

59:13Santiago Perez:Actually, like, I'm getting older and more boomerish in my ways where I'm like, what happened to respect? No, I just, I don't want to be involved in things that are undignified. Somebody could say, like, the fact that I'm even AI literate is undignified, but, like, I engage with dignity. And something about that just really rubbed me the wrong way. And I think I'm a little bit like a switch. It's like if it's off, it's off.

59:41Matt:Yeah.

59:41Santiago Perez:I stopped opening the emails and that's a pretty like strong inertia.

59:46Matt:Yeah.

59:47Santiago Perez:It's like people who got turned off by the Washington Post. Like they were like, okay, not making a stand. It's not, I mean, it was more of an integrity thing than a dignity thing. Although I think they're like highly correlated. They were like, oh, okay, well, I'm done.

1:00:00Matt:Yeah.

1:00:01Santiago Perez:And now we're seeing the knock on effects of that.

1:00:03Matt:Have you read the airmail books coverage? I know you you're this is your world as well I feel they do a good job yeah they're good with books I think they cover books well there's just like a lot of there's like multitudes there it's not just a Saturday send I don't know I don't know why I'm defending Ariel I've got no skin in that

1:00:20Santiago Perez:game uh no it's I mean anyone who's covering books right now deserves a pat on the back exactly

1:00:26Matt:with the shrinking WAPO section that sucks like that guy's sub stack was amazing by the way did Did you just read his, the former critic of the Washington Post? He's very, very funny.

1:00:37Santiago Perez:Well, obviously, like Becca Rothfeld, I love her work. Yeah, totally. And I'll follow it to The New Yorker.

1:00:41Matt:Yeah, a great hire there. I mean, we're really doing media gossip right now. Well, let's talk about legacy food media, because I think this is the broader question here. You know, with these layoffs happening, you know, at Eater, Epicurious, Washington Post, and many more on the horizon likely. We're doing some autopsy work right now. We're kind of digging in the bodies, at least in terms of the industry and talking it through mostly in group chats and IRL. But we're doing it here on the mic. And could they have done anything differently? Some of these legacy publications that have shed a bunch of their editors and writers and food?

1:01:20Santiago Perez:Yeah, I think so. I think what's tough about media, I mean, as with any industry, hindsight is 20-20. And I think the level of greed that was happening in some of these publications and being really, like, top-heavy in their org charts and not really thinking about mentorship, refreshing the pipeline, what the experience was like to be an entry-level employee, like, that was always a mistake. Like I do have a lot of empathy for people who misread the tea leaves on like what Facebook was going to do to media or the pivot to video. Like it's a lot harder when you're in the moment to know whether you're saving your business or destroying your business.

1:02:08Santiago Perez:And we're at a similar inflection point now with AI. and so I do have like a lot of empathy for that where it's like you only know we only know what we know now because we saw what didn't work and those post-mortems are really important as guidance but it's also I get frustrated because people want to post-mortem so much and like nobody wants to talk about the future yeah true and I'm somebody who kind of lives in the future and I feel it It feels a little lonely. It was funny. Sophie Haney, who was at Paris Review, and I think she's leaving to do her own projects. She had a really good prompt, which was like, do you think more about the future or the past?

1:02:55Santiago Perez:I almost messaged her and asked if I could do it as a dirt prompt because we love asking people these sort of controversial binary questions. And I was looking through the responses and I was like, wow, I guess I'm like one of the only people that said future.

1:03:06Matt:That's crazy that that's the case. It seems like people would be wanting to look forward.

1:03:10Santiago Perez:The future's scary because it hasn't happened yet, but, like, the past is scary because it has. Like, what?

1:03:14Matt:Yeah.

1:03:15Santiago Perez:I mean.

1:03:15Matt:We started this conversation talking about the future with the startup, so I'll give us some credit for talking about the future. But, I mean, I just want to know, like, looking at the business models for some of these legacy publications, I guess, like, overinvestment in certain areas, like the video back in Facebook days made sense, meta days. Were we too top-heavy with editorial teams? I mean, you have a smaller team and can pull off what you're doing.

1:03:39Santiago Perez:I think what it comes down to is you spent more money than you made.

1:03:42Matt:Yeah, very, very, very, very.

1:03:46Santiago Perez:I always joke. I don't think I have a great business mind. The only thing that I understand is just sticking around and surviving and not spending more money than you're taking.

1:03:58Matt:Yeah, great advice. I want to talk about live. I think that live is interesting. Substack kind of has been hot and cold with it. they've been a lot and they kind of pull back i'm always thinking about live with food i think it is like a natural ingredient for live programming is food is like the demo obviously is one but just like shopping like there's like so many physical things in this world we cover here on the show that i think could be really exciting live like even like mukbang style but doing it a little bit differently like eating dining live how about mukbang plus polymarket it i want to predict preach let's go i want to predict when in the nathan's hot dog eating contest each contestant's gonna tap out that's fun to have like a live free idea no i i love thinking about predictive markets and food i think it's interesting i've spoken about in the show before i gotta go back and listen to that episode hasn't aired yet per this recording but guys we're

1:05:01Santiago Perez:living in the future.

1:05:02Matt:Yeah, we are.

1:05:02Santiago Perez:You heard it here first.

1:05:03Matt:We did. But I think live could be very fascinating for one of these startups to dabble with live.

1:05:11Santiago Perez:Yeah. Who's the most likely of this new crop that we mentioned?

1:05:16Matt:I mean, I think it seems that best food blogging gourmet are more of the text on the page crew.

1:05:25Santiago Perez:Do you want a hot tip on old gourmet?

1:05:28Matt:Yeah.

1:05:28Santiago Perez:All the issues are digitized in the internet archive. And so when I need like cool like stock photography, I've just been going back and like borrowing old issues of a gourmet because I'm like that copyright doesn't exist anymore.

1:05:40Matt:Well, yeah, exactly. We've it's been that's a good.

1:05:43Santiago Perez:What are they going to do? So I've been using them like little digital collages and stuff.

1:05:46Matt:It's a pro tip.

1:05:48Santiago Perez:Yeah.

1:05:49Matt:I'm still wondering what the whole Condé Nast side of that story is because it really hasn't. They really haven't said much.

1:05:56Santiago Perez:Somebody will find out.

1:05:57Matt:Yeah, there'll be a great story. Maybe it will be Caper that finds out.

1:06:00Santiago Perez:One of the media and power of reporters, of which there are many.

1:06:03Matt:Yeah, there's a lot of media reporters out there. Maybe that's my issue with Sem4. I feel like the live is something that need – I don't think any of these startups are going to do it. I think it's, like, perhaps something that Eater will do down the road or BA. Like, they have the studios, right, up there in the desk kitchen. Yeah. So, I mean, and I think it's, like, kind of changing the vocabulary of live for food. Like right now, most live is like kind of the split screen in my kitchen. Let's talk Instagram live idea. But we've seen cool studios. Like obviously that that kind of look like TV or, you know, we obviously know live TV and there's plenty of food on live TV to broadcast.

1:06:49Santiago Perez:Here's a question. Do you think that like Chicken Shop Date and Hot Ones and shows like that that are sort of like this legacy food video startup vibe are going to hit a ceiling on growth and switch to live or start experimenting with it? Because I feel like if they do it, then some of these more traditional players might follow.

1:07:07Matt:Perceptive. I think you're right. I think I mean Chicken Shop Date I don't think would go live because it's so celebrity driven and most of those guys wouldn't go live. Same with I guess same with Hot Ones. I think they would not be able to get their people if they went live. Because it's a little controlled, right? It's very media trained. It's media trained. And in fact, Chicken Shop Date probably gives first cut to the PR team for some of these people.

1:07:31Santiago Perez:I believe it.

1:07:32Matt:You believe it, right? I mean, that's the thing. That's why it works. It doesn't come from journalism. It comes from creator arena.

1:07:38Santiago Perez:Adam Friedland needs to have Alison Roman on and they can get some pasta together.

1:07:43Matt:That would be a cool pairing. Good crossover event. And this isn't negative. I think like those are innovators. Like those are great shows. Like they have their own rules and it's not journalism. They can do it that way. I don't know who's going to do it. I would love to see mukbang though. Like I think like, and it doesn't have to be like the actual, like the traditional mukbang is for like people who are lonely and who want to like have company and want to have that digital moment. I think it's more education and like let's actually, I would love to watch a stream of somebody at Noma, LA, like going through it and like narrating it and like well lit and like mukbang stuff.

1:08:20Santiago Perez:How about they hot mic all of the tables at the top restaurants in the United States sort of like Red Zone style and then as soon as somebody starts breaking up at the table we all tune into that table.

1:08:32Matt:Table breakup Red Zone is genius. This is like a great novel.

1:08:36Santiago Perez:I really like watching that lady on TikTok that puts cheese in the Japanese sweet potato.

1:08:40Matt:Oh I don't know.

1:08:41Santiago Perez:And like protect her at all costs.

1:08:42Matt:Please send me that link.

1:08:44Santiago Perez:I will.

1:08:45Matt:I mean, I have so much to ask you.

1:08:48Santiago Perez:Who do you like? I'm much better behaved on your podcast than my podcast. You're great and bold. All of a sudden, like, my vocal fry is, like, cured. I think it's the dignity of, well, I actually do have a microphone, so I can't really explain.

1:08:58Matt:Yeah. I really enjoyed Life and Death at Balthazar by Amelia Granger. Yeah. You have a really strong sense for food narrative. You've published lots of great stories that we've linked to in our newsletter and just, like, really been all about. And I guess, Daisy, what do you look at when you're kind of working with writers who want to tell a story in the food world?

1:09:23Santiago Perez:Well, for that one, it's actually an interesting backstory. We were doing an essay contest with Lux, which is a socialist feminist magazine. And then the Economic Hardship Reporting Project also got in as like an additional partner. And so we were doing this essay contest for combined essay and criticism on work in general. and Bad Waitress was, of course, an example, but we had other examples in there. And Amelia had submitted this essay and it was one of the things where it was like, I knew it was going to win the contest, but really fell in love with the essay. So I actually asked her, hey, like, can we just publish this regularly?

1:10:04Santiago Perez:And what I liked about it was it's a very human story. It situates her experience as like a young person trying to find their way in New York, dealing with some of the indignities of being, in her case, at the hostess stand. Yeah. A lot of the quirks of a Keith McNally restaurant that have been sort of glamorized, you see through her point of view of feeling just objectified and like part of the decoration. But I feel like what I liked about it is she didn't like lean so hard into that where it was like pity me. It was more just like this is what it was like. And then, you know, juxtaposes that objectification in these minor ways and some more major ways, especially like, you know, comments and whatever, with being basically in the vicinity of this really famous murder and having been a potential witness and not having seen anything but having walked basically the same pathway on a nightly basis.

1:11:13Santiago Perez:it's the type of thing where I'm describing it now and it's like, wow, somebody could have really done a horrible version of that for like XO Jane like 12 years ago. But it's in the hands of a great writer. It's a great story. In the hands of the wrong writer, even if it happened to them, it would be not fun to read.

1:11:32Matt:Yeah.

1:11:32Santiago Perez:Because it's hard to like when something when you've been in proximity of something that's a bit much bigger news story than your little life, sometimes trying too hard to force yourself into that conversation can ruin the storytelling aspect of it.

1:11:48Matt:I'm going to link to this essay in the show notes. And I think I don't want I don't want to like push you to paraphrase it, but I just think what makes what sparks your interest in a writer when it comes to food?

1:12:01Santiago Perez:I think another pop out what sparks my interest is the same thing that sparks my interest in a writer writing about any topic food, music, design like there's nothing unique about food in that regard like a great story is a great story and I think maybe what's unique about me maybe not is I do not look at the name of the person sending it or whether they've been published before and I decide in the first five sentences whether I'm going to publish it or not

1:12:28Matt:it's a very satisfying answer

1:12:30Santiago Perez:Thank you. I definitely don't think I'm more efficient than other editors or people who work in media, but I am probably more decisive in that I'm able to quickly make decisions on things like that.

1:12:41Matt:Before you go, and please come back, we have way more to cover. I would love for you to come back every six months or so. It's fun catching up with you. I love your essay about software as a style. That was really, really fun. I have one to possibly add. But what made you write about this topic?

1:13:00Santiago Perez:Well, what made me write about it was seeing that this industry of software engineering, which has been, you know, for my entire adult life, really insulated from other economic factors that have been impacting people who work in the arts and the humanities, suddenly start talking about taste and these more like soft skills and liberal arts style skills. like as AI poses an extinction level event for certain types of unskilled coding. And so if as with content, as I wrote about in the taste economy, like if AI can produce a like passable blog post, like this is fine. It gets the message across.

1:13:48Santiago Perez:It's not great. There's not a lot of artistry to it. Or the artistry comes from ingesting a ton of stuff that's already out there. then there's a level created above it of the sort of like luxury premium version. And we know what that means for writing. And I was sort of talking about like what that means for code as well. Like in the article, you have people who are part of that world talking about this idea of like bespoke programming or bespoke code. And, you know, tailoring it to people and doing things with it that are really intentional. So we don't get a lot of opportunities to talk about coding and art together.

1:14:28Santiago Perez:And I love reading work by software engineers. They're also very strong writers because they can often get at this. But that was the idea behind the piece that sort of all of a sudden people who had all this job security through this very kind of straightforward skill set are talking about taste and distinguishing themselves through their taste.

1:14:52Matt:Yeah, I love it. Vibes coding has changed so much in our world. The convergence of art and tech. And you just see it. People like building projects who have very little hard skills on the tech side. It's great. It's great. Well, I'm going to leave it there. Please come back six months from now. We can catch up on many other things.

1:15:11Santiago Perez:Yeah, we'll put it on the calendar.

1:15:12Matt:Thank you, Daisy, for joining This Is Taste.

1:15:14Santiago Perez:Thank you.

1:15:20Santiago Perez:This is Taste is hosted and produced by Matt Rodbard and me, Eliza Abarbanel. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergang Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skurzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.

1:16:14Matt:I breathed when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-CONTACTS.com today to save on your first order.

1:16:23Santiago Perez:1-800-CONTACTS.

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