734: David Cho Launched The Awl and Grantland. Now He's Mapping Good Taste Around the World.

11:49Aliza:Like post-modern. Yeah, exactly.

11:51David Cho:It's not the same thing as modern.

11:53Aliza:Yeah, exactly.

11:54David Cho:Post-farm-to-table, we don't know what it means. I guess we'll find out.

11:57Aliza:I mean, maybe they're not like looking to the farms for the influence of this restaurant and they're actually doing a structured menu that is not seasonal.

12:06David Cho:I guess like what is, not to get too existential, but what is farm to table?

12:10Aliza:Yeah, what is farm to table?

12:11David Cho:To me, it's going directly from the farm to the restaurant and that's it.

12:17Aliza:Yeah, and like that implies like seasonality, right? Yeah, exactly. You're shopping locally.

12:21David Cho:And that you're committed to being a part of like a more local food system, which it seems like the way you're describing this restaurant, it would be very much in line with that. But then the grammar nerd in me is kind of feeling unmoored.

12:32Aliza:I mean, I'll just add this wrinkle. They have like Alkaline Trio and Thursday posters that it was kind of like that vibe. Maybe it's like a post-rock reference. Like maybe I missed a tortoise poster or the sea and cake.

12:44David Cho:Okay, I'm going to do some digging because I need to understand what's happening here. Maybe they'll write.

12:49Aliza:Maybe we can. I mean, like for real. Let's figure this out. Maybe they can tell us exactly what they're thinking there.

12:55David Cho:Yeah, okay. But they don't say on the menu, like, this comes from this farm kind of thing.

12:59Aliza:You know what? Honestly, I don't think they were tipping to specific farms on the menu. They were saying, like, Vermont cheddar. They weren't saying the farm.

13:06David Cho:Okay. Well, this is a mystery. Yeah. But what's not a mystery is that food was really good.

13:11Aliza:Food was great. And I like the style, the high style points. What's your last thing?

13:16David Cho:My last thing. Sorry for that detail.

13:18Aliza:No, it was amazing. We're keeping all of it.

13:20David Cho:My last thing is a really cute grocery cafe that I went to upstate in Rhinebeck, New York. It's called Golden Russet Cafe and Grocery. Matt, have you been there?

13:30Aliza:I haven't been there. I know Rhinebeck and it's been on my list, but I'm excited to hear about it.

13:35David Cho:It's just very, you know, like they know exactly what they're doing. They're open for breakfast and lunch, kind of on the side of the road. They offer all the classics, tuna melt, burgers, sausage, egg and cheese, et cetera. They have a great griddle going. and also their pantry section is really well stocked i'd say especially for like a small upstate place they have a fridge full of um you know like pre-made things you can take home they have an asian pantry section that has chili crisp and curry paste and multiple versions of those things like quite a good selection and then kind of as the golden russet name implies i think that's like more of a reference to apples than potatoes and they have several varieties of heirloom apples available in the fridge and also some nice like small batch heirloom cider that's being made in the kind of New England area.

14:22Aliza:I love that. I love that they're keeping apples on in the fridge and selling them off season. I love that.

14:29David Cho:Yeah. I mean, you're my apple friend. So I figured that out of anyone about to know about an upstate apple place, you would want to go there.

14:35Aliza:Golden Rust, it's such a cool I've again, I've heard of it, but I haven't made it over there.

14:40David Cho:That's my last thing.

14:41Aliza:My last thing is I'm actually staying upstate. And we never tell each other what we're saying. I love the segue. I want to give another shout out to a restaurant I've mentioned before, I think probably a year ago, called Zinnia's Dinette in Craryville, New York. I went back and I just have to continue to say visit this restaurant. It's such a unique place in the best sense of the term. It's a restaurant run by Amy Lawton. And Amy has, by her account, and I think maybe Anna Heasel can help me with this when she comes on the show, the largest tinned fish and conserve retail shop in the country. There's over 40 ,000 tins on premise, which is crazy.

15:23Aliza:It's not all there in the dining room in the little shop there that she has a big storage unit.

15:29David Cho:I can't imagine how she keeps that inventory organized. It's wild.

15:32Aliza:And the place is very well organized. It's all done by color code, by stickers. So there's little dots on each tin. That's how you figure out what the price is. But really, I want to talk about the food first. Like, again, this is a restaurant. If you remember, she's taking seafood from both Boston and New York. The shipments are arriving every day of service. And it's one of upstate's finest seafood restaurants. And I'd say it was New York State's. And I once again had clam bellies fried, which are amazing. We had a wonderful cod sandwich, flaky. we had a special that she made it was tinned mackerel with kind of like a farro and parmesan rind kind of like a little bit of a grain bowl of sorts with this beautiful fish on top I just love it I know they do ice cream in the summer I've never been there in the summer so I will have to check that out but I think this restaurant is really special and it's kind of out there it's probably like 40 minutes from Great Barrington it's not far from Hudson in that kind of zone and I love it.

16:38Aliza:I think our listeners, if you like, if you head up a state, you will really enjoy this restaurant. And I also want to shout out, which I didn't mention last episode, down the street is a really cool market called Random Harvest. It's a bakery, it's a coffee bar and they're doing really cool local products everywhere. On the shelves, I saw Battenkill Brittle. I saw the Chase Home Farm was doing yogurts at like 4%, 5 % yogurts in the cooler. They also have some random, they have like the biggest Tony Chocolonely selection I've ever seen. They probably had like 20. Really cool shop, like really well curated.

17:17Aliza:I'm extremely jealous. This is not closer to me. They need a shout out. Just well done there. That is called Random Harvest.

17:27David Cho:Well, I love both of those recs. I have to do a one-two punch the next time I'm in the area.

17:31Aliza:Up in Craryville, baby.

17:32David Cho:Yeah, hell yeah.

17:35Aliza:This episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. We spend a lot of time on the show talking about where food comes from, the sourcing, the origin, the story behind what ends up on your plate. This is why I'm legitimately glad to be working with ButcherBox. ButcherBox delivers over 100 premium protein options straight to your door, including 100 % grass-fed beef, free-range organic chicken, crate-free pork, and wild-caught seafood. For over a decade, ButcherBox has led the industry with meat and seafood that's antibiotic-free, hormone-free, and independently verified. It's the clean, trustworthy protein you want to be eating, especially in this era where protein is more important than ever.

18:22Aliza:As an exclusive offer, This Is Taste listeners can get their choice between organic ground beef, chicken breast, or ground turkey free in every box for a year. Plus$20 off when you go to butcherbox.com slash taste. That's right, your choice of organic ground beef, chicken breast, or ground turkey in every box for an entire year. Plus 20 % off your first box and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. This episode is brought to you by Masterclass. You know how on the show, we're always talking to people who've spent decades obsessing over one thing, whether it's modern Korean food, new expressions of the Jewish deli, or the perfect Vampiro taco in South LA.

19:12Aliza:That depth of knowledge is the thing I find endlessly fascinating. And honestly, it's a big part of why I'm into Masterclass. There are classes taught by some of the best chefs, writers, and thinkers in the world. People who've put in the work. And the lessons are short enough that I can actually fit them in. Thought leaders like Michael Lewis, Amy Poehler, and chefs Gordon Ramsay and Roy Choi all teach their own masterclasses. I've been using audio mode on my commute, and it genuinely feels like time well spent. With plans starting at$10 a month, billed annually, you get unlimited access to over 200 classes.

19:48Aliza:And every new membership comes with a 30-day money-back guarantee, so there's really no reason not to try it. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15 % off any annual membership. Go to masterclass.com slash tastecooking. That's masterclass.com slash tastecooking. David Cho, welcome back to This Is Taste. How are you, my friend?

20:09Matt:Welcome back because we recorded an episode that never came out.

20:11Aliza:I'm glad you brought that up. So we had a dry run about a year and a half ago. Postcard had been in beta. I've been using it at that point, but now I've used it more. So we're going to talk all about that. Yeah, for sure. But also, your history of media is great. I feel like we can go many directions with this conversation. And honestly, I really want to figure out what the fuck's up with food TV right now. Like with you, you're going to be the one that answers it. All right, before we get to that, though, David, you've been in L.A. a little bit. You live in New York City. Restaurant-wise, what's good right now for you?

20:43Matt:I mean, I think I have very basic tastes when it comes to restaurants in New York. I think it's like, I think Haas, everything the Haas couple does is amazing. I think Bridges is great. I think Penny is incredible. I love Sons. It's kind of like the greatest hits of all those places. But I think L.A. is interesting. I was just in L.A. last week and I think the Korean food scene has like evolved into the next era of what Korean food in L.A. was. Please tell.

21:12Aliza:Please tell.

21:12Matt:Well, because it's like when I my grandmother lived in L.A. for a long time. And so I would go like when I was little and a lot of those restaurants still exist and are still some of the greats. Right. Like Seon Neung Dang is great. Like Corner Place is great. But then there's like this sort of intermediate wave of what, how does the second generation sort of run those restaurants or operate those restaurants? And I think now there's this new wave of like Korean restaurants that are really, really compelling. And I think some went one route where it's like, oh, super fine dining, like more like, okay, we learned how to cook in Europe.

21:45Matt:We learned how to cook in like sort of non-Korean restaurants. And then there's people who went the other way. It was like, we learned how to cook in Korea. And that's what we're bringing over here. So it's more modern Korean food, which frankly is like not to use a very taboo term in 2026, but like fusion restaurants. You know, it's like restaurants that have a lot of influence from the West.

22:03Aliza:I mean, you see the European inspiration in New York's fine dining scene, of course.

22:07Matt:I mean, we. I mean, Haas is a French restaurant. Like Haas is a restaurant that could. For sure. Great point. That you could find in Paris in the best way. Yeah. But it's also so clearly Vietnamese. It's so clearly his point of view in a way that I think is genuinely very compelling.

22:21Aliza:I mean I want to get back to LA like I love that you mentioned

22:26Matt:corner place I mean it's like I took Hannah Goldfield there when I was there last week shout out to Hannah she's the best she's the best and like you know it's one of those things where they have this one dish of vegetable noodles where it's like a fermented vegetable broth that's cold and it's served with these like really really perfectly cooked rice noodles and then you get that with like a side of like Korean barbecue yeah it's fucking incredible dongchimmy yeah Dongchimie is like you know Dongchimie there is elite it's I mean I just there's no other place that does it like that like even in Korea it's like you know and there's there's like really cool places from Korea I have to look up the name but like there's a place that does Pyongyang naengmyeon which is like a North Korean style cold noodle that like I don't normally love it's super mild I don't I'm I have like a very I don't have a sophisticated enough palate to enjoy it but like it's really compelling but they sort of do this thing where for every bite they're like here's a little kelp vinegar put it on it's like incredible

23:20Aliza:That's a great idea to like make it like every bite of pinyang naengmyeon, like kind of like focused on the vinegar. Because when I have naengmyeon, sometimes I throw too much vinegar in. I mean, every broth is different. You have to adjust it accordingly. Exactly. Huaro, I just went there. Oh, yeah. Which is the chef from Kochi and, you know, ghee and like a really cool place and kind of understated. I love it. I think you're going to enjoy this place. But very French, I must say. Yeah.

23:50Matt:I mean, I think restaurants in New York, it's tough. Like, it's interesting that New York has such a specific restaurant internet culture now where there's so many TikTokers and Instagrammers and whatever. Everyone sort of is constantly making content about them. We were talking about this a little bit before, but like it creates this hype around any restaurant that I think is like really impossible to live up to. like the idea that like you know when people say you're gonna have the best meal of your life that means so many different things to so many different people and it's just kind of like you know it's it's just it creates an expectation level that's why going to new restaurants is so

24:26Aliza:challenging now and why we keep saying like go to support the restaurants you've been going to that you know what you're gonna get so you can have that wonderful catch up with a friend and not have to focus on the newness and the expectation i mean that's why i love going to like hearth

24:38Matt:yeah still to this day i go there that place is amazing i mean like the french diner is great for that like som tam dur is like great for that i mean yeah the sardine salad i fucking love that i think there's also it's also like things that live outside of the hype cycle are very still very good like i think fish cheeks is great yeah which is like still a hard reservation but it's not as hard as some of the other ones i don't know i there is this thing of like expectation that i'm always like thinking about where like even if you recommend a restaurant for to someone it's kind of like you want to let them know it's like you're gonna have a great time just enjoy yourself you don't have to think about you don't have to analyze it in a very like critical way rather than just like going to a restaurant sitting down enjoying your company and like you know eating the food in a really like human way which i think we've like all become critics i think orgo does that really well yeah i mean he's great tarlo is a genius really smart guy

25:29Aliza:and great restaurants and i just think you go there it's definitely an adult restaurant and you're not thrown for a loop of a concept the the space is very inviting so i think that's why it's succeeded so well. I do think we're at a very fun time with restaurants in New York right now. Oh, yeah. It's like better than ever for sure. I mean, the amount of openings too and now that we have four critics working in New York for the New York Times plus Matthew Schneier. You've got like great and Sitsima is like back and like really plugging away. I think like critically we're at kind of our best moment in the decade.

26:01Matt:Yeah, I mean it's interesting. You also have people like Rob Martinez who we've talked about a lot. Of course, Rob. These very like independent people who are making things and also just very different tastes yeah you know it's like they don't care about like rob is very much like i don't care about what is covered on yeah you know established publications like eater the infatuation the times whatever it's like he cares about you know people who make restaurants which i think is just interesting and i think having that whole swath of things i don't know i think it's we're in a very interesting time i think the pop-up to like real space thing that haas is a part of that sunny's a part of like yeah i think that's a really interesting pipeline to be like, okay, can you hack it enough independently with all these sort of like pop-ups that now when you open your own restaurant, you have like real reps.

26:45Matt:So you, you know, can open a killer restaurant the way both those groups have.

26:49Aliza:If there was only a way we could organize all this information. We'll get to postcards. One more question. I want to hear a little bit about your upbringing. You grew up in Tennessee in a Korean American family. And, you know, I want to, what was food liked David growing up?

27:05Matt:I mean, we were very poor, so my mom cooked a lot of food. Yeah, sure. I think it's, you know, I was talking to a friend about this yesterday where it's like, you know, growing up in Knoxville, there's one Korean store. It was very small. Yeah. We'd have to drive to Atlanta like three and a half hours, four hours away, go to this place, Buford Highway. Buford Highway Farmer's Market. Yeah. And you would go to these like massive warehouses that had like a shit ton of Korean food. And it's the kind of thing where like you just couldn't get things. You know what I mean, there are core ingredients you couldn't get.

27:35Matt:Like you couldn't get like what I guess is now, I think you can get it at like Kroger, but like this sort of like nori, the kim, you know, like you couldn't get sort of dried seaweed. And it was something, it's like a core part of Korean food. And, you know, my mom made everything. So if we ever wanted anything, like if we wanted like jajangmyeon, it's like a black bean noodle that's like from China, from when like China, I guess, was colonizing Korea. But like it's like one of the most famous dishes in Korea. it's also kind of like annoyingly complicated to make it's like fry black bean paste and all this

28:05Aliza:there's like a pork element there's definitely some rendering there and it's like we lived in

28:10Matt:a small house in knoxville and so my mom didn't have like a walk or like a we had you know we had an electric burner and it's like we didn't have all the things you needed to like make this food and so you know it's like i grew up not really understanding like what food like the relationship i have with food now is so much more like i don't know informed but when i was growing up it was just like you eat things and you like it or you don't would your mom uh like kind of like hack

28:33Aliza:like you know more like commercial products like walmart products and and kind of throw a korean element in like would there be this hybrid cooking no i think she won't i mean my parents immigrated

28:43Matt:from korea and i think they wanted to feel like they were at home you know what i mean like i think you know one of the big like korean cooking hacks that they always talk about is they have you have this thing called dashida which essentially like meat msg yeah basically and it's like it's so good and it makes everything taste like a restaurant so it's like you're making like a broth and you add a like a very small teaspoon of that and it like half a teaspoon of that and it just like just adds this depth and saltiness and like oh my god what do you remember arang on 32nd street

29:13Aliza:second floor so i got when i was writing koreatown i went and hung out in their kitchen for a couple shifts and their dashida little little area for those you remember the the duck yeah big old duck and they were like hitting it hitting it hard and i i mean that is flavor that is a korean flavor

29:30Matt:it's so good and it's like i i mean i use it all the time when i'm cooking at home now but you know my parents it's like my mom would like when she wanted to cook american food she'd cook like spaghetti out of like a prego jar and you know add some ground beef to it and you know i mean it's like but also we were so southern so like i would make things because i was like obsessed with Food Network. And so I would make things that like I see on TV or something like that from like a Giada recipe or a Bobby recipe or whatever, which is funny now, obviously.

29:57Aliza:Well, before we get to Postcard, I have one more question about your background, because we haven't talked about this too much. Actually, IRL, I'm really curious, like you worked on College Humor in Grantland, and you also were part of the launch of Owl, the Owl, which to me, it was such an important moment for online publishing, changing of formats. I mean, so many great voices. You, Alex and Corey launched that. I mean, let's go back to that era.

30:24Matt:Why was it so beloved? We live in a time now where there's no subculture. You know, everything is both known and celebrated and shared. And I think there was something about like, the all was a product of, we were all at Radar. I was like working at Radar Magazine, which is like a very small independent magazine. I'd like sort of been part of the recruitment of Alex and Corey to work there as writers and then radar folded in 08 because the financial crisis and from that we were sort of like all right fuck it we have to figure out a way to do this we actually I mean we started it out of necessity and so the idea of like why is it beloved I think it's because it felt really human and it felt very not like underappreciated it felt very sort of new and special and real and I think it's like it's funny it's like things like that still exist today.

31:13Matt:You know, I think there's like so much great independent publishing, you know, in large part due to Substack and due to, you know, other mechanisms that exist to sort of allow writers to go direct to the consumers. But I think at the time it was harder, you know, and so we started this thing. We were fortunate that Alex and Corey had existing audiences and we built around them. And then we just sort of expanded that, right? So it's like Adam Frucci, who was dating a friend of mine at the time, he sort of wanted to start a comedy thing. And that's how we started the comedy vertical i think you know then brand started reaching out to us about how can we participate in the business you're building and how can we invest in verticals and so you know and taylor reached out and so we started the hairpin with edith and then you know intel reached out and that's where the wire cutter came from where i was like all right

31:56Aliza:that was from an intel like rfp or just reach out yeah literally i mean because like intel reached

32:01Matt:out and then brian was adam was actually freelancing at uh gizmodo at the time i met Brian through him. Brian and I met at, I remember it really clearly, The Bean, which used to be on Bowery and Second Street. Oh, The Bean. Yeah. And then, and we were sitting there and I was like, what do you want to do now? And he was like, cause I had like had the Intel pitch in my mind. And he was like, well, you know, I really want to start a blog about the ocean. I was like, that's cool, man. I'll help you do that. That sounds like a great Tumblr, but like, what if you start this tech thing for us? That's like a consumer report style thing.

32:35Matt:Or maybe, I mean, maybe the idea for it came up in conversation was the idea of like the ocean thing is cool. And now he lives in Hawaii and has a shitload of money and is doing great. But like there's a space to do. I mean, like the Nick Denton of it all is very much like the service journalism. But he was like, let's make something that actually people can use. And so at the time, there wasn't a way, like there wasn't a culture of people, you know, reviewing things and whatever. And so Brian was like, I want to apply the rigor that I've learned about technology products to everyday products people use.

33:06Matt:And so that's where it really came from.

33:07Aliza:The bench testing of Wirecard was like the famous wrinkle there. I mean, I used to work at PCMag in that world. And to see that office of the bench testing and to take that to consumer products was refreshing. And he had a great voice for it, too. The voice, too, of course. I love that you mentioned Ethe Zimmerman, too. I worked with her right before she started that thing. And I mean, that the hairpin, I mean, it launched the careers of so many writers that we that we still read today. And I think Edith should be given more credit, to be honest.

33:37Matt:I think we were very fortunate at a time where Corey and Alex had really prioritized editing. And they'd really prioritized sort of like building writers' voices. And I think it's something, you know, that we also applied at Grantland, right? I think like, you know, Dan Fearman and Sean Fantasy and all those guys like all sort of like prioritize the importance of like both like giving writers pushback and actually teaching them how to be better writers in a lot of ways, especially with younger writers. With older writers, it's different.

34:05Aliza:Well, they came from print background. And when you literally had to have rounds of edits because you were putting out a thing, like you had to have like it was required to get from like that word doc to layout versus just typing into a CMS.

34:20Matt:I mean, it's what makes old magazines so good, right? You had like eight different people independently looking at pages multiple times to make sure it was good. And I think like that's the thing that I miss the most. You know, it's like I miss the idea of like putting real care into work. And like, because now it's such a volume game, you know?

34:38Aliza:I mean, but we're post-traffic though. Like the era, so we are a volume game for social, obviously. But like for digital publishing, we aren't a volume game.

34:47Matt:Hopefully. People haven't learned that lesson entirely though. You know, it's like, and it also volume works, right? It's like Emily Sundberg, who I think is so smart, has built, and like Casey Lewis, Rachel Carton, like all these people have built, I guess Rachel less so, but like have built daily publications that sort of aggregate and synthesize information. And I think like, you know, it's a tricky thing of like, how do you maintain that relevance in someone's life while also maintaining the quality level? And I think, you know, those are two examples that are really great at doing it.

35:16Aliza:You're right. Like a daily Monday through Friday send is definitely volume.

35:20Matt:It's crazy that they don't burn out. Like if you remember like back in the Gawker days, it's like Alex and Corey, it's like every Gawker editor, they would work for a year and then they would stop because they're like, this is too much. And now it's just kind of like, you know, like Casey's been doing her newsletter for like multiple years, like Sunberg's been doing her newsletter for multiple years. And it's just kind of like, it's just interesting to see, you know, how that's evolved. And, you know, just sort of the.

35:44Aliza:I think Swarm Snark burns people out quicker than volume. And I think the tone of Gawker probably and just like the sheer awfulness of a lot of the content is probably what caused those people to burn out versus someone who like Emily and Casey, both have been on the show, like are really like in love with their audiences. And they're to serve your audience good shit versus trying to like be self-centered and take down celebrities.

36:13Matt:I mean, it's I think there's also sort of a hustle culture that exists with these younger people. Yeah. But doesn't that didn't exist with us when we're coming up in a real way.

36:23Aliza:Yeah. In terms of digital media today, I mean, are you spotting anything that really has that all energy that has that like scrappiness and that innovative use of product? I think you guys really were smart with product, like peeling back layers, trying to like create weird art and like big art in that era when maybe things were a little more boxy and templated.

36:45Matt:I think there's obviously really great independent people making things right. And that to me is at the core of what the all was like the at the core of it. It was like, you know, we would provide infrastructure, monetization and like operations to support writers who are really talented. You know, it's like the idea of Edith was like, it was like we're a sounding board and editing board at times. But really it was like, go do your thing. You know, like Brian was the same way. Everyone is sort of the same. And I think now there's a lot of people who like sort of technology has become that operational resource.

37:18Matt:Right. So it's like Substack is your distribution and to a certain extent your monetization. Like, you know, there are all these things that, you know, exist now. I think the challenge for any of these places is like, how do you do it alone? You know, like when do you start bringing on additional bodies to help make the content not even increase in volume, but in quality? And I think like Sundberg is doing interesting things by bringing in like more contributors, more editors and more sort of like, you know, support around her. And while Casey is still doing it mostly alone with like support from management and stuff like that.

37:49And so I think all of them are doing it in different ways.

37:53Matt:And I think the smartest people understand their audiences and understand how to use the distribution platforms, whether it's where their main content's published, whether it's social, to sort of really interact with their audiences in meaningful ways and sort of understand the role that they have in their audience's lives to sort of build products and content and relevant things to their audience.

38:13Aliza:And you can measure it better now than ever. I mean, at the all, you didn't have like the substack tech.

38:18Matt:I mean, I would have loved to have had sort of like, you know, subscription revenue as an opportunity. You know, it's like we like we relied on ad sales in a very specific way. And I think all those people like sort of have ad sales as part of their sort of like, you know, revenue stack. But for us, it was like we just had to hustle for every single dollar. Whereas like there are so many beloved people who loved the love Corey and Alex so that when they launched their own thing, they could have had like 2000, 3000 people paying 50 bucks a year, which is like meaningful revenue. when you're starting from zero.

38:49Aliza:I mean, at that point, it would have been your operating budget, I'm sure, pretty close to it. I mean, it would have been a really sizable amount.

38:55Matt:Well, Corey and Alex were also very committed to paying everyone that wrote for the site. Even if it was just like 20, 40 bucks or 50 bucks, it was just like, because they knew what it was like to not have that. And, you know, when we were starting out, we brought in like, you know, Carrie Fry, who became an editor and like was sort of helping out there and like would edit Corey and Alex because they were often edging each other. But yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think we're in a time that is very much a product of that sort of independent media. And I think now it's just, you can just do it better and at scale, like many things.

39:25Matt:You know, I think the Defector people are very similar where it's like, they sort of were able to take their audience, you know, create a really stable subscription business that then now allows them to have capital to sort of really try out more interesting things and more, you know, compelling things. Like, I remember, like, I mean, we were working, Alex and Corey were working out of Corey's apartment on like St. Mark's and like, I don't know, there's like smoking all day long at a big table, like writing blog posts while like Corey's cat was roaming around. You know, it's just such a different time.

39:54Matt:It's great.

39:54Aliza:I love going back to that era. Thanks, David, for sharing that. This episode is brought to you by Rula. Here's something I think about a lot. We use our insurance for everything. A doctor's visit, a specialist, a dentist appointment we've been putting off for a year. But when it comes to mental health care, suddenly we're expected to pay out of pocket. or navigate some platform that doesn't actually work with our plan. That's a broken system. Rula fixes it. They're a healthcare company, not a tech gimmick, not a subscription trap, that connects you with over 15 ,000 licensed therapists and psychiatrists nationwide, covered by more than 100 insurance plans.

40:34Aliza:The average copay for sessions is$15, and the care is real. The providers are vetted and appointments are available as soon as tomorrow. Visit Rula.com slash taste to get started. That's R-U-L-A dot com slash taste. You deserve mental health care that works for you, not against your budget. Please support our show and let them know we sent you.

40:59Matt:This episode is brought to you by Peloton. Break through the busiest time of year with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus. powered by Peloton IQ. With real-time guidance and endless ways to move, you can personalize your workouts and train with confidence, helping you reach your goals in less time. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push, and go. Explore the new Peloton Cross-Training Tread Plus at OnePeloton.com.

41:24Aliza:Let's get to postcard. You've been working on it for a while now. It's true. Which is great. I mean, I think you really have a sense of timing and you've been in beta for a while. Now you're a public, you're a public launch. And I just, I love it. I've played around with it. I'm a huge fan of Swarm and Foursquare. I use that, I've used it since day one, basically. So I think I'm in this idea of creating lists of places I'm going, I've been, and like really logging my intake of restaurants, et cetera. But you have other ideas. I mean, this isn't like a Foursquare Swarm pivot or 2.0. This is its own thing.

42:02Matt:Well, I think, you know, we sort of saw a bunch of different things happening at one time. Like, one was sort of like the way a person decides what they do has changed a lot, right? Like 10, 15 years ago, people would say, oh, I went to this place because my friend recommended it. And I think now that sort of sphere of influence has really expanded, right? Like you have, like someone you don't know has a relationship with you where they trust that you saying, oh, go to Mari on the Upper West Side means something to them. and so you know because of that shift and then also just the fact that we're also just making a lot more content and there's so much more information i think we want to figure out a way how to sort of have technology make figuring out where to go easier right so it's like the idea of like you know i would have a thing where like my parents live in korea my friends in korea are like posting about different places they've been or whatever and i'm like i'll screen grab it or i'll save it in my like Instagram saves.

42:57Matt:And then like, I never go back to it and there's no way for me to action against it. And it was just kind of like, oh, well, how can I sort of make a tool that allows me to organize things better and then make decisions faster. And so it's like, you know, for us, it's like, if you see something on Instagram, you can just like share it into the app. It'll like identify what the place is, take the content, embed it into postcard directly from Instagram. And then when I land in Inchon, it's like, oh, here are the 45 things you saved. And And then I can sort of sort through that by recency. I can look up like, oh, what's a good place to take my parents?

43:28Matt:What's a place that has the best beef or whatever? And all that information is actionable. So the postcard is the unit within this app.

43:37Aliza:So you're logging, you're creating postcards from venues. Now within that postcard, explain what a user is getting. Because it's not just your address and a few notes that you've added. There's more data there.

43:51Matt:Well, it depends on what the person wants. And I think for us, it's like, really, what we want to do is, you know, where you spend your time, where you spend your money is like really important as a decision. So it's like, how can you make that decision as easy and thoughtful as possible? So it's like, you know, we have a lot of data already, because we have a lot of content partners and things that we're ingesting from the internet. And it's sort of like, okay, when you go to a place, how do you know what to order? Well, the infatuation says this, Eater says that these people have said this, this and this, we're trying to make that as accessible as possible while also giving full attribution, sending people to those sites if they want to learn more.

44:26Matt:You know, it's the idea is like, how do you make it where Matt says, you know, when you go to Fish Cheeks, you have to get the wings. And I say you have to get the steamed fish to have that information more easily accessible without having to open, you know, five different tabs to figure that out. And so, yeah, for us, it's like, how do you make information as easily accessible as possible while also giving like full attribution? Because I think that's also really important.

44:48Aliza:Yeah, you want outbound traffic going to the sources by using the API of these various media companies. You want to give them some love, too.

44:55Matt:But it's also important for the person making the decision. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. I care who says what. I don't treat every person the same. You know, and like and for us, I think that's one of the big things about postcard generally where it's like, you know, you and me have similar tastes, but we still have different ways that we make decisions about where to go or what to do. I really like bristle at the idea of like they're being like oh these are the best restaurants in New York or these are the best places because I'm just kind of like no it's like all this stuff is personal you know what I mean it's very like your 10 best places are different than my 10 best places and that's what's good that's what's like fun and interesting about food and going out to eat you know it's like we have different alchemies that decide what we like and what we don't like and I think that like even like rating systems like really bother me you know what I mean like Oh, yeah.

45:41Aliza:I mean, and really, the new startup Caper is building their model on this idea that they're not doing lists. And we'll hear from Emma Orlo next week about Caper because I think that's smart. Like, we're a little bit in this fatigue right now. And we're recognizing that maybe we don't need a list of 100 restaurants. We need what's highly personal to us.

46:01Matt:Well, I think it's for us, it's like whether they exist or not is sort of like up to like I get from a I get the Times has to make a list of 100 restaurants. Because that's compelling content. That's good editorial.

46:11Aliza:They also are using a lot of their existing reporting. So it's not like. And they have bandwidth. They have bandwidth. Exactly.

46:16Matt:And like, but to me, there's like this idea of like, you know, if you're on Google Maps, for example, and you say, oh, this restaurant's a 4.8 or 4.5. Like, who the fuck knows what the idea of your 4.5 is versus mine? And there's like a data argument that could be said if you have enough scale that'll directionally point you towards something. But like, I don't know, food is so personal. That doesn't work that way. You know what I mean? it's not like there isn't a rating system that I think actually works except for who do you know who do you trust or is your opinion consistent with these people and that's what we're trying to get to the idea of saying like how do you use technology to make that sort of personalization more thoughtful and faster and more efficient like I would have the thing where it's like you know I'm crazy so like if I'm going to Mexico City I'm getting like seven lists from people and they're like five of them are emails one's a Google map and like someone's sending me like screen grabs of a notes app and i'm making like a spreadsheet saying like okay this is what's recommended here's who recommended on the x-axis i'm being like okay well this person said this that person said that but like that's crazy like technology should do that for us to a certain extent you know and like make it easy for the postcard is is going to take all these inputs

47:25Aliza:yeah and put them into one graph that's basically your your list of a city or your city you live in Totally. And I guess from the user point of view, am I following other people's recs or is it more of an internal kind of diary?

47:42Matt:I think when it's all said and done, everyone's going to use it hopefully differently. Right. It's like depending on who you are. I think at its core, it's the idea of being a bridge between like where people consume things like Instagram or TikTok or whatever it is, or your friends. And then there's like utilities that exist like Google Maps and things like that. Like, how can you sort of be a place where those things can meet and you can actually make use of the data or the content and information that you have? I think the three core tenets from a product perspective that we focus on is, like, how can you organize better, right?

48:11Matt:That's, like, where the saving stuff comes into place and be able to find things. How do you share things better? So it's, like, you know, the first thing we built out was an easy way to share lists because that was, like, a behavior that we saw people doing. And then the third thing is like sort of discovery and sort of saying like, you know, one of the things that I think we're really happy with that I think will get better as more people use it is like you list three places that you're like, OK, these are three places that I really love. And then based on that, we sort of say, OK, when you land in city X, Y or Z, here are places that are comparable to the three that you sort of have selected as like your core tenant places.

48:43Aliza:So, David, how do you grow an audience for a new app? I mean, we're a little bit deep in this conversation, but I think if you're here this far, you're going to recognize David's challenges and really your success in the past. Like, what's the top of the funnel moment for this app? How do you get people onto it with a lot of competition?

49:01Matt:I mean, I think for me, it's really about like I really believe in content-led growth. And so you sort of like the reason we're building tools that hopefully help people who already have content is because we think their content is valuable and their audiences want a better way to engage with it. So I think that's like one part of it. The other one is like providing real utility. You know, it's like I think, you know, the product is meant to be something that allows people to figure out where to go and what to do. And that can happen when you're traveling to the south of France or that can happen when you're traveling to Dallas.

49:37Matt:But it can also happen when you're trying to figure out a place to have dinner in Midtown. You know what I mean? And so for us, it's just like, how do we really provide utility? And I don't think, I guess we're so, I mean, it's been a while, but we're still so early. You know, it's like, we're going to keep getting better. We're going to keep trying. We're going to keep learning from like what people do and don't do.

49:55Aliza:I mean, you're still very new, even though you've been in beta for a while. You're still very new to the public. And of course, I'm linking to it in the show notes. you should download the app and play around with it and start logging and start, you know, inputting your Instagram. I love that.

50:07Matt:Yeah. I mean, for us, it's like kind of the idea of like, how can you make it where people who already have lists just like copy and paste that text into the app and then it'll map it all out for you. So you can like sort of like put it to use right away. And so we've like invested a lot into tools that help people do that.

50:23Aliza:Well, I want to get to my original question about food television. I think you're really well qualified to answer this because it's a topic I've been continually bringing guests on and kind of like poking at is, is where are we going to end up with food television? What's going to actually work in the next couple of years? Because I do feel still there is exhaustion with competition and there's a craving for something new, something different. It may not be the travel log, the follow along. I'm not sure if that's the answer. You have a background with college humor and done a lot of television, digital media.

50:54Aliza:So I'm really curious what you

50:56Matt:think about this i mean i think the framing of the question sort of highlights the contradictory nature of it like what is tv you know what i mean like is tv something that airs on a streamer is it something that airs on linear is it something that airs on broadcast it's like i guess the same thing but like yeah you know i think is like is a person making a 30 minute youtube video is that tv or is it not you know youtube's like the largest consumed platform for video and you're literally watching it on your tv yeah oftentimes you know and oftentimes people are watching what is traditionally considered tv on their laptop on their phone on their ipad you know on their whatever it's like so i think that's the challenge right like i think you know there's a lot of hurdles because the attention span of people for content has gone down you know it's like there's a there's a really talented woman uh that i follow on instagram now who is like a really great cook And, you know, I'd say like I first saw her content like six months ago.

51:52Matt:I think her name is Corey Larkin. Do you follow her?

51:54Aliza:No, I don't.

51:55Matt:She's super talented, super good. I looked the other day. She has a million and a half followers on Instagram.

52:00Aliza:Yeah.

52:01Matt:And she just is shooting cooking videos where she's holding a phone, putting things into a pot and then cooking them. And like, you know, having a million and a half people who follow that, it's like, so why should she ever invest in making long form? You know, what's the upside for her and what's the reasoning? So it's like when it comes to like what is food television look like? I think it's like, you know, I said earlier, like I was a massive fan of Food Network, but like I don't know what it looks like. And I think it's really going to depend on who the creator is. Like will food content be a subcategory of a larger influencer or a larger creators content mix, right?

52:39Matt:Like is Emma Chamberlain going to get into cooking and she's going to now just start making cooking videos as one tenth of what she documents or whatever. Right. It's like, I think that's the real challenge of like, where are people and what do they need and what do they want to watch? You know, I think like, I obviously have worked on a lot of like cooking things and even that exercise, it was like an expression of, of like what Roman wanted to make, you know? And I think for us now, I think it's just like, well, what do people want to consume? And I think you need really good and creative people to figure that out.

53:13Matt:But I don't think it's going to be a format the way that things used to be. You know, it's like Food Network existed. And so it's like, OK, you can have Dump and Stir, Hands and Pan shows, or you can have travel logs. And that was because those were the only formats that existed.

53:27Aliza:I mean, now we just have grocery games and more grocery games.

53:29Matt:or any or it's like this woman that i'm following on instagram it's like she's making literally what aina made you know what i mean she made she's making the same like jacques pepin is like it's the exact same it it does the same thing it teaches me how to make something i made one of

53:43Aliza:her recipes last weekend it was fucking great and it's so from cory larkin's account you made it

53:48Matt:yeah you just watched it you made it like she has a sub stack i don't think the recipe i made was on her sub stack so i just literally like i saw the video i mean i'm crazy so i like wrote out notes of like what to do. I eyeballed the measurements and then I just made it.

54:01Aliza:That's not crazy at all. That behavior is very common. You know, I've heard this time and again from the creator side of their fans doing this or just from people like talking to them. It's like we take notes. I mean, that's very common. And I think that's the beauty of the vertical video format on social is you can just see the beginning and middle and end within 90 seconds. So for this attention, this lack of attention, it works. Well, what do you think it's going to be? Like you've thought about it a lot. I have thought about it and I try not to leave. Like for me, it's definitely a return to documentary in some way.

54:35Aliza:I think that there is an appetite for like more polished productions, but I don't know if it's actually the bread, the celebrity with the bread show or whatever. I think it's something a little different. I think I'm really fascinated by Maddie Matheson's new show. Yeah. I think it's really well done. I think that having. Super thoughtful. Yeah, and it's like, it's definitely having a comedic and kind of an edge to the production is important. That's, it's a little, it's satirical in many ways. So I think that as entertainment is fresh.

55:05Matt:I think I have a better answer for your question now that we've like talked about a little bit. I think it's the idea that like everything's going to exist. You know, it's like I think like as much as things are fractionalized right now, I think it's going to continue to be fractionalized. The thing that the Internet has given us, and I'm so grateful for the Internet because it's the work I've done my entire life. But like I think the thing that the Internet gave us was the opportunity for everything to exist and everything to find a certain audience size. and I think that's really where we're going to end up and I think the question is is are high quality productions going to be able to be offset by the audiences they accrue yeah right and that's the question mark and I think like no one knows yet I don't think like you know I think the way like streamers have invested into travel or food things has decreased a lot as of right now I mean those things can change like with the wind or whatever but like I just don't think we know and I think it's really going to be about if you're a person who makes things really being thoughtful about what you make and how you make and the only way quality goes up is if they really give a shit and I think they have to care about making good things and I think that's what made Roman good I think Roman cared about making things that were good Still, I mean, incredible Substack 100 % All of these people even like Rob or whoever every single person who makes something that's good it's because they want it to be good you know, like Sunberg is a great example Like Sundberg wants something to be good or she wants it to be what she wants it to be.

56:29Matt:And so that's what pushes anyone to make what they make. And I think that's, you know, hopefully people get money to sort of make better things and have more money to invest in what they make.

56:40Aliza:But, yeah, I mean, I think it's a transfer of funding and investment and doing it in more of a micro sense as well. Brands perhaps not wanting that that large scale and realizing that the attention and audience of a smaller number is actually OK.

56:54Matt:I think brands are getting it more and more. Oh, for sure, they are. Yeah, yeah. I mean, relatively, like, again, going back to the all of it all, it's kind of like when the all started, it's like scale was all that mattered because we were getting compared to, like, all these big publications and we had to rely on really savvy marketers and really savvy salespeople to sort of be able to frame this as like, okay, no, these are people who you want to attract. And I think, you know, scale still matters. And I think if you can figure out a way to sort of like, you know, meet in the middle, you know what I mean?

57:23Matt:where you're saying, okay, this content will reach the people you want to reach. But maybe not as many as you think it will, but these people will convert.

57:31Aliza:Yeah. Do you want to do anything IRL, offline for your career? I mean, I'm talking about a restaurant, a bar. Oh, no. No? I mean, you're so intuitive and you have a great sense of style and trend and you live in this digital world and that's kind of your sandbox. But would you do IRL?

57:51Matt:I like helping people that I think are talented achieve what they want to achieve. But I'm also very aware of my lane. You know what I mean? There's like, like I, you know, like I think it's so cool when like I and this is what I like. Again, going back to the beginning, this is what I like about New York's current restaurant scene, where I think a lot of people who have been waiting for their chance are now really executing against it. You know, like I think the idea of like what Sonny is doing or what the hospital is doing, what Sam Lawrence is doing. I think these are people who worked for a long time and now are being given their shot to really cook and really make the places they want to make.

58:26Matt:And I think it's so cool to see. So for me, I'm just like, however, I can help them that, you know, it's like if, you know, I've worked a good amount. And so I have access to some people who have money. So I'm always trying to put them in touch with restaurants that need fundraising because I think that's important.

58:40Aliza:You know, I think it's like you would actually suggest investing in a restaurant. I mean, if someone wanted to invest in a restaurant, I would give them good chefs to partner with. Yeah. I mean, you can certainly make money in restaurants, but it's, you know, it's super hard.

58:52Matt:And it's hard. And to me, I think it's like I like that restaurants are one of the few places where people can still be genuinely creative. And you see it in the output. And I think it's also just, again, like really good art is really personal, you know, and I think the restaurants that I like a lot are personal expressions of the people who are making the food. And, you know, there's the Korean thing like of where it's like literally the idea of like, you feel someone's hand in the taste of the food. And I was like, I don't know. I think that's great. And I think that's like, you know, at a time where I think art is really compromised by the fact that it's so intertwined with commerce.

59:27Matt:I think restaurants are a place where even though it is obviously like there's real money involved. Like I think it's one of the few places where that can actually still exist in a meaningful way.

59:36Aliza:Oh, so well said, David. I cannot agree more. And speaking of Son Mat, got to go to Son in San Francisco. Oh, yeah. Get this new restaurant. I do have to go. Yeah.

59:44Matt:I don't love being in San Francisco.

59:47Aliza:which is the challenge for me. It's a reason to go. I had to plug that because I think that restaurant's terrific with him and Janet Leigh. What a great conversation. One or two more restaurants in New York. You're here.

1:00:00Matt:In New York?

1:00:01Aliza:Yeah, what's on your list?

1:00:03Matt:Actually, there's two places in LA I have to pull up my app. Okay, you're pulling up a postcard. That I think are genuinely really

1:00:09Aliza:fucking good. I'm there in a couple weeks. Oh my god, bro. I'm going to the New Squirrel, so I'm excited about that.

1:00:15Matt:They did their thing last night, right?

1:00:17Aliza:They're doing Friends and Family now, but they'll be open by then.

1:00:19Matt:There were two things that I ate that were really, really good. Cool. Tell me. This is great. Okay, so one was like this Korean place that was like, they had two types of ribs that I think were fucking unreal. It's called haemaru salongtang. I'll send you the link to it. But it's like essentially, one was like a Thai version, which was like a really viral Thai version of ribs. The fried ribs. No, no. These are like, I think they must be steamed or something. because they're the they're like really tender but like crushed with like herbs oh okay and sourness and all this stuff but then there's a second korean rib that they did where it's like um it's almost like battered and sauce like korean fried chicken yeah so it was like you eat both ribs and they're fucking incredible which i loved and then did you have this all on time no you got ribs yeah and then uh seo kwan is the place that i was telling you about that has the great they have really good Korean barbecue and then there's a place that I went to called and this was really fucking weird where it's called Marisco's Osuna O-X-U-N-A where it's in a it's the backyard of a house in Watts the menu's all in Spanish and they're grilling this like crazy whole fish with like handmade tortillas we got this crazy scallop ceviche this like butter shrimp I mean it was just like it's fucking insane because you pull up to someone's house there's like a fence in the front and then you go in and then you are guided to someone's backyard and it's just like some of the best fish some of the best like i love that the the scallops are really good the shrimp was really good but no those three places i loved i mean new york it's just like everything's good yeah no it's like new york it's like you know the ones i said you had a you have a great

1:01:56Aliza:sense david and i love i love going to uh that part of la south bay and you know south south

1:02:02Matt:la and it's tough the mexican down there i mean that's that's where it's at so much of it it's so weird because la is like developing like a different type of restaurant culture that's more like new york's in a way but i just don't really i just don't really care it's like if i want to go to a restaurant i'm going in i'm going in new york you know if i'm in la i'm eating korean food thai food mexican food yeah and japanese food you know it's like i don't i don't need to go to like a restaurant restaurant yeah you know what i mean have you been to dunsmore yet i have been to dunsmore it's like good yeah you know what it's like that's like new york food i know it's like i don't get the korean but i mean there's really great korean restaurants in new york now I think it's like underrated.

1:02:36Matt:But it's like, I just, it's not what I'm there for. You know, I'm going to corner place. I'm eating noodles I've eaten for the last 30 years. It's like, I'm going to eat. Like there's a burrito place called La Azteca Tortilleria that I fucking love in like the, like in the middle of nowhere LA where it has like a crazy crisp like tortilla with like a chili reno that you get with like carnitas. And then you add like a chicharron and it's fucking perfect. You know, it's like, that's what I want. you know what I mean like I don't you know it's like river is like great and like you know there's restaurants that are really good there's lots of good restaurants

1:03:10Aliza:yeah I mean it's just all about and it comes back to your original point about how personal these choices are it's exactly you've just like proven it in real time how we I'm sure folks who live in LA obviously want to go to restaurants and if you if that's

1:03:24Matt:what you want that's like amazing you know what I mean like go do that like I'm like I don't give a shit about vibes I only care about food yeah but like you know my partner cares a lot about vibes or you know my friends care a lot about vibes it's like all right cool

1:03:35Aliza:we'll go vibes versus food conversation needs to be talked about more because it really is a matter of personal preference and both are right that's it because i think like a non-vibes person like i just want great food is going to be like like call like a vibes place like fancy or just the

1:03:52Matt:judgment around it is what needs to change which is why again like i think the internet is prone to hyperbole and it like fucks shit up yeah but like things don't have to be the best ever things can just be your favorite ever. You know what I mean? It's like this being your favorite things, great, great framing.

1:04:07Aliza:Yeah.

1:04:07Matt:Saying this is the best, that's just like, why?

1:04:11Aliza:We don't need to do that. Best fatigue, man. We have it and postcard is not leaning into it too much, which I appreciate. Hopefully. This episode is brought to you by Venmo. With the Venmo debit card, a taco in one hand and ordering a ride in the other means you're stacking your rewards. Nice. Get up to 5 % cash back with Venmo Stash on your favorite brands when you pay with your Venmo debit card. Pick a bundle with your go-tos and start earning cash back. Do more stash, get more cash. Visit Venmo.com to learn more. Venmo Stash Bundle terms and exclusions apply. See terms at Venmo.me slash stash terms.

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1:05:04Aliza:David, now this is Taste. We ask guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Yeah, please.

1:05:12Matt:The best fruit. I think, again, Hannah Goldfield has passion fruit pilled me. And so now I'm very big on passion fruit. Love mango. Those are my two favorite right now. The worst vegetable. I fucking hate beets. They stained a pair of pants that I liked a lot one time. and I've never looked back. You know, fuck beets. Yeah, if you lose a pair of pants for oil or for beets. Oil, I will say. If you ever have oil stains on your clothes, get Lest Oil. It's a thing, it's L-E-S-T-O-I-L and it's like the best product. Wait, really? Genuinely. So if you have an oil stain on an article of clothing, you put some Lest Oil onto it and then let it sit for like 15, 20 minutes and then put it in the washing machine and it comes out.

1:05:54Matt:Even if it's been through the dryer, it's fucking insane.

1:05:56Aliza:This is, as somebody who enjoys eating out and has pants. Huge.

1:06:01Matt:I mean, there's like a baking soda trick too. I've done that. But it's like, Lestoyl is perfect. I couldn't endorse it more. I love this. What is your typical breakfast? I don't really eat breakfast, but I love breakfast food at night. So it's like, I love like a Waffle House. I love like, I love shredded, like julienned hash browns with eggs and bacon. I think it's fucking perfect. Also biscuits and gravy. But like I'm just not eating it in the morning because of like work.

1:06:26Aliza:Yeah. It can be a lot. So breakfast or dinner. I'm hearing that. Yeah. The best dessert.

1:06:31Matt:I think I love anything with a meringue. Yeah. Like the meringue at Contre Mar I think is fucking perfect with the strawberries. I love an eau flottante, which is just like, you know, again, meringue based. Love panna cotta. Love cake. I don't know. I love all desserts. Pinkerton's up in Kingston. They're passion fruit. Meringue cake. Yeah. I bet that's fucking sick. It's definitely. I mean, like, I think Honey's is fucking great. Like, we got a blackout kick from Honey's last week. I thought it was fucking banging. I think, like, Tanya at Egg is making great desserts that I think are so good.

1:07:03Matt:The Haas desserts are great. Yeah. I love it. When you're craving fast food, where are you going? Okay, first of all, always craving fast food. I would say McDonald's, Taco Bell, Chipotle, Chick-fil-A. I think those four, you can kind of get everything you need from there. I think McDonald's, Big Arch is coming soon to America. I'm excited about that. Explain the big arch. I've seen it online, but I know. I know they tested it in Europe, which is why I had it. It's just a new sandwich they have coming out March 3rd. Very excited about it. Yeah, I'm like really in it. Do you fuck with the McDonald's app?

1:07:34Matt:I do. I love the McDonald's app. Great deals. Big time. Big time. I also just like, I mean, I fucking love McDonald's, man. Like it's like, not in like a, oh my God, like I'm so relatable. It's like, no, I just fucking love McDonald's. I fucking love, I love Taco Bell. The Mexican pizza is one of the best food items ever created.

1:07:50Aliza:When they brought that back like a year and a half ago, I was very happy. Huge, huge, huge, huge.

1:07:55Matt:I think Taco Bell just is like, it just hits a very specific, you know, part of your brain that gives you joy or at least gives me joy.

1:08:02Aliza:I mean, billions of dollars in food science innovation out of that Southern California food lab. Yeah, sorry. They're so good at making food. I mean, they've invested and we've benefited. A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead.

1:08:14Matt:Old Teresi. I think New Teresi is incredible. I think Rich has genuinely made one of the best restaurants in New York. but I think like old Teresi was so special like I remember like I would because it it opened around the time I moved to LA and I whenever I was back I would always go I it was like 58 bucks it was four horses four horses take the hotel I still think about it take the hotel with the little cookies oh bro they had a they had a pasta with like pepperoni that was fucking crazy and it's just like I don't know it's just a great place to have dinner it was such a perfect little room and it's like you know I don't know It just, it feels like the thing that I, and also it's like we were younger, you know what I mean?

1:08:55Matt:So we, maybe like, again, we're talking about music about how like your music tastes stop when you're 15 to 25. I think it's like that restaurant opened when I was like 27. And I was like, I just, it's so special. I feel they still have that lease because it was a parm for a while. Yeah. I think it's something else now. Is it something else?

1:09:09Aliza:I mean, bringing back old Teresi for a month, like, imagine those reservations with hot passate fly.

1:09:15Matt:But it's also like, I mean, they've gotten older, you know what I mean? And so the food that I think Rich makes at Teresi is the food he wants to make. And it's fucking great. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, you had two of the best cooks in one kitchen making their first restaurant. It's like, I don't know. It's like fucking unreal.

1:09:31Aliza:It's a crazy, crazy place. I'm glad you brought that one up. A couple more. Your favorite city outside of America to visit for food.

1:09:36Matt:I mean, I don't think, like, I think Seoul is a really impenetrable city. People are always asking me, like, what should I do? Where should I go? And I have, like, a list I share with people. But, like, I think Seoul for me is my favorite. just because it's like, I don't know. It's like, I love Korean food. I think it's so, food in Korea is very specific where it's like most restaurants are good at one or two things. That's changed, obviously, as like things have been, as like a new generation of restaurateurs come up. But like my favorite places make one thing primarily and then three other things as like a secondary thing.

1:10:07Matt:And that's all they do. You know, it's like they're just constantly boiling pork and then, you know, cutting it up and then serving it with like the best kimchi. Or their kune bajeon,

1:10:15Aliza:they're just doing that. That's like one spot. That's all they do.

1:10:19Matt:I mean, there's also just like, I love the meat market in Seoul where you can go buy really good Korean beef, which is like, I mean, Korean beef is the one thing where it's like, you can't get it anywhere else. They won't export it to America, or they won't export it outside of Korea, and you can only get it in Korea. And so you go to this meat market, you buy the meat, and then you go upstairs. You take it to one of the random places where they have grills, alcohol

1:10:45Aliza:and plates and you eat it there yeah mongwon market is a must visit i feel a lot of tourists don't end up going there i don't know why it's it's it's so built for tourists exactly i i and everyone goes to uh kwangjang market which is terrible like you you need to go to the meat market exactly what you said and just go upstairs and and you know the side dishes in some of those

1:11:04Matt:restaurants are amazing too i mean i just think that the taste of korean beef is so specific because it's like i love japanese beef but it's like it's it just it's a completely different concept it's like korean beef isn't as fatty it's much beefier in a lot of ways and it's also you know i think also because it's such a younger um like culture of beef yeah it it it just has so much integrity in a specific way i love that well said david i'm glad we're talking about among one market uh last one your favorite sandwich oh that's easy i think defante's makes the best sandwiches in the world um i've been going to defante's for 20 plus years i've missed their Manhattan location that closed 15 years ago.

1:11:43Matt:But it's like that roast beef sandwich, that fried eggplant on the sesame bread with the mozzarella and the fucking jus. It's like, it's in Red Hook. So it's a pain for me to personally get to, but I think about it once a week and I think it is the best place to get a sandwich. David Cho, you are always welcome back.

1:12:02Aliza:What a fun conversation. Thank you so much for joining this. No, thank you for having me.

1:12:10Aliza:This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. logo designed by Ellie Skirzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.