735: Tiny but Loud, Caper Has Arrived with Emma Orlow

10:00Emma Orlow:So a lot of it. So it's business. So it's like the actual the mechanisms behind the restaurants and the players like the you know, you write about a cheese seller and doing like it's kind of exclusive take on it. We'll get to that later. And I just like this idea of like restaurant business being news because I think food and restaurant culture is part of everyone's life now. There's going to be an audience for this, I imagine.

10:24Matt:Yeah. And for me, like, you know, I'm born and raised in New York. For me, when I'm writing about restaurants, like, of course, it's that they're delicious, that I'm excited to be there, that they have a certain environment. But really, I see myself as almost like a metro reporter, like the health of the city, what's going on, you know, like the real estate changes, neighborhood shifts. And so I think something that I'm really excited about this with like right now we're doing it. So me, Annie and Chris each have our own sense. And hopefully through that much like at PEC, you kind of get a sense of like our personal preferences, who we are as people, where we're coming from and kind of the specialties that we're also bringing.

10:59Emma Orlow:Are you going to like talk about restaurants, like going to them and like not reviews, but like have some color from restaurants?

11:06Matt:Oh, for sure. I think, you know, but it's figuring out like what what's different there. Like maybe it's an ingredient that you're seeing on a bunch of different menus or maybe it's, you know, this silverware that everyone started using all of a sudden. That's not so much about recommendations as far as like the food, but more the space itself.

11:26Emma Orlow:I agree with you. I think there's been a little bit of a rut with restaurant news and it's been about the opening, opening, opening and less about the synthesis of what that opening actually means. So I'm totally here for that. Give us a example of what makes a caper story and what is definitely not a caper story.

11:39Matt:Yeah, I think like like you said, you know, I think there's a lot of emphasis on the opening and we're really interested in going deeper. Maybe it's coming back three months in and seeing how the business is doing and what they change from day one. And I think that gives a lot of freedom to to go deeper and not just be there saying it's opening. But, yeah, I think it's it's for us like bringing the expertise that kind of I think food media can often feel like a bit of a bubble. And I think something smart that they were intentional about with CAPER is like, you know, with Annie, she's an arts reporter and she has this really wide network of people who, you know, connect into hospitality in this really interesting way and widen our network of these aren't just food people, but it's how it touches like the wider culture.

12:26Matt:You know, bringing in maybe somebody who's a real estate reporter, a media reporter who don't necessarily come from food media, which I think I haven't seen as much.

12:35Emma Orlow:Yeah, it's cool. I mean, the three of you having distinct stents is going to be something I'm going to be reading in your early innings. So, you know, I think the show is yet to come, right? Yeah, yeah. We'll talk about your background a little bit. You were an eater for years. And how do you like to talk about your kind of experiences within food media?

12:54Matt:Yeah. So, like I said, born and raised in New York. What neighborhood? Upper East Side. Yeah, right on. parents are from Brooklyn and Queens, many generations of New York. And I think, you know, I got my start when I was in high school, you know, writing like a blog and it wasn't specifically about food. It was, you know, about thrift stores and like little recommendations like that. But it was always New York as the through line and started my career doing, you know, like lifestyle, fashion, cultural publications. And then, you know, in college, I was just working like a lot of catering jobs and I was around this moment of sort of this earlier wave of what now is like this thriving pop up scene.

13:36Matt:And I just started pitching stories around that and kind of found my niche of people who maybe didn't have the most traditional entry point into hospitality.

13:44Emma Orlow:I like that.

13:45Matt:And yeah, so and then, you know, freelance for a bunch of places, worked at Eater for the past four years. I was a reporter there and then later an editor. and I think you know for me really my beat is like sort of these up-and-comer movers and shakers who maybe we know in hospitality but are not yet household names and was writing a lot of opening stories there a lot of breaking news stories trend reports yeah but I think I'm excited to see what I'm capable of with like a more more space to write features which is something that I really haven't had the opportunity as much so far in my career.

14:24Emma Orlow:I can't wait to read your work in Caper. This episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. Here's something I've been thinking a lot about. When you're hosting a dinner party, you should cook what you know. Don't rely on that recipe you bookmarked the night before and had never even thought about. Look to something you've made before, something you're confident in, and something where maybe the protein is doing the heavy lifting. That's where ButcherBox earns its place in my kitchen. ButcherBox delivers over 100 premium protein options straight to your door, including 100 % grass-fed beef, free-range organic chicken, crate-free pork, and wild-caught seafood.

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15:53Emma Orlow:That's butcherbox.com slash taste. Don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you. This episode is brought to you by Rula. Here's something I think about a lot. We use our insurance for everything. A doctor's visit, a specialist, a dentist appointment we've been putting off for a year. But when it comes to mental health care, suddenly we're expected to pay out of pocket or navigate some platform that doesn't actually work with our plan. That's a broken system. Rula fixes it. They're a healthcare company, not a tech gimmick, not a subscription trap, that connects you with over 15 ,000 licensed therapists and psychiatrists nationwide, covered by more than 100 insurance plans.

16:37Emma Orlow:The average copay for sessions is$15, and the care is real. The providers are vetted and appointments are available as soon as tomorrow. Visit Rula.com slash taste to get started. That's R-U-L-A dot com slash taste. You deserve mental health care that works for you, not against your budget. Please support our show and let them know we sent you. You want to talk about some food writing?

17:03Matt:Yeah, let's do it.

17:04Emma Orlow:We have some great stories lined up. And again, I'm sorry for the delay in getting these out. I love doing this. These episodes are quite popular and we'll be bringing many more journalists on. The first story is My Dinner Date with AI by Ella Quitner in the New York Times. Going back a couple of weeks, I had a great conversation with Ella about a terrific new cookbook and what a great voice. And I think she's really so talented at nailing scenes and really capturing vibes, so to speak. She's really good at that. And I love this story just broadly. It was really short.

17:37Matt:Yeah.

17:37Emma Orlow:I kind of love that.

17:38Matt:Yeah. Well, it's like she did such a good job with the scene reporting of it that like shows you exactly what is so entirely bleak about the AI dating world.

17:48Emma Orlow:Oh, my gosh. Crazy.

17:50Matt:Yeah. I was so fascinated with it because, you know, obviously we're in this moment right now where, you know, we're all on our phones. People crave connection. this story was fascinating to me because it's about you know exploring the tentacles of AI and like what does it actually look like to be in a physical space that we say we all crave and then be on a date with an AI bot it's it's crazy I'll set this up I mean it's uh

18:16Emma Orlow:it's basically it was a stunt marketing event to be clear and clearly it did its job big and landed in the New York Times it was hosted by Ava AI and they were creating the first AI dating cafe in Hell's Kitchen at the wine bar. Same, same. Okay, a vibe check. There was a couple dozen diners there. They were each given an iPhone or iPad and headphones to share a meal with an AI bot. I love this quote. Much as in real life dating in New York City, almost no one seemed to be at the restaurant for love. That was great. And really, the scene really led to some interesting observations from Ella. You know, I think that one thing was that the tech was really glitchy and not really fully the kind of immersive experience you would want from an agent date or an AI agent date.

19:08Emma Orlow:And I love this quote from David Berkowitz. He's a marketing consultant. Quote, we're in this well-documented loneliness epidemic, he said, and this is exactly the technology that can bring us further apart, not closer together. And I exactly exactly like so great stunt to show AI tech, maybe not the future, but I could see with technology increasing by the year and year, you could see more of these popping up.

19:33Matt:Hope not.

19:34Emma Orlow:Yeah, hope not. Right.

19:35Matt:But I think it's kind of interesting because we are in this moment where there's like a lot of speed dating happening at restaurants. There's a lot of emphasis for people to kind of get off dating apps. There's a lot of dating app fatigue. This is not going to be the answer obviously part of this was the stunt um but yeah a bleak a bleak future and the funny thing i thought was also hearing the staff talk about how they were asked to treat the ai bot as a real diner yeah so dystopian so dystopian i think one of the diners was was

20:05Emma Orlow:enjoying their cheeseburger and remarking to the ai bot and the ai bot was kind of lost yeah wasn't

20:10Matt:able to share the well that's what people say right that like food is like the one you know thing that AI can't replicate because it doesn't know taste.

20:19Emma Orlow:It's true. It's actually a good point. It's why, like, food will probably be the last frontier until we start printing food, which I'm sure you'll cover in the pages of CAPER.

20:27Matt:Technology? Oh, for sure.

20:29Emma Orlow:Yeah, yeah, like printing food. I mean, I've been thinking about that a lot recently.

20:32Matt:Printing food?

20:32Emma Orlow:Yeah, yeah, using 3D printing.

20:34Matt:Oh, sure, sure, sure. Yeah, like 3D printing.

20:36Emma Orlow:I think that's, like, a broad term for, like, fabrication from raw materials, but, like, on demand. Yeah. You know, 3D printing of food.

20:43Matt:Yeah.

20:44Emma Orlow:It's interesting. Okay, the next story, it's a really good one. Would You Wait Eight Hours for This Waffle by Matthew Schneier in New York Magazine. Love, Matthew.

20:54Matt:Love, Matthew.

20:55Emma Orlow:What a great guest. He's only been on once. I ran into him at an event a couple months ago, and I was like, gotta come back on, and I think we might make that happen. I love his taste in restaurants, and he's one of our best critics. And, you know, New York Magazine has done something they've done once in a while is they sent their critic west.

21:14Matt:Controversial.

21:15Emma Orlow:Controversial. you have thoughts we'll get into that i've enjoyed uh the way new york magazine has covered the la scene i i those those great stories from ezra marcus about horses comes to mind those are terrific reported pieces they weren't necessarily criticism the restaurant that he is visiting is max and helen's in larchmont so much written about this restaurant very buzzy i think the opening week there was a quote-unquote eight-hour wait which i think is the kind of metric that some restaurant owners do not want to have. This is an opening week metric. It's not really the case. I was actually asking, I'm going to be in LA in a few weeks, and I was emailing with a friend and I was like, can I get in at like 8 a.m.

21:51Emma Orlow:on a Tuesday? They're like, yes, you can.

21:53Matt:Yeah.

21:54Emma Orlow:It's not like that anymore. The principles of this restaurant are interesting. It's Phil Rosenthal. We know him as a creator of Everybody Loves Raymond and Somebody Feeds Phil. He's been on TV a lot. He's a friend of mine. He's been on the show a couple times and he's partnered with Nancy Silverton. they've partnered together in the past I believe Phil is an investor in some of Nancy's restaurants the hype around this restaurant as I said before cannot be understated Ruth Royschel wrote about it as the best waffles she's ever had must note that she is a very good friend of Nancy Silverton so you can take that as you will and really this story is Matthew giving the food an assessment I love this line quote, the patty melt beef may be dry aged, but the ice cream in the milkshake is thrifty.

22:42Emma Orlow:A SoCal budget scoop shop since 1940. He quotes Nancy as saying, we learned you cannot make a proper milkshake. And I tried with premium ice cream. So they were going with industrial because it makes a better ice cream or a better shake. The style of this restaurant is very much like Montague Diner, Kellogg's in Brooklyn, very modern diner. But we went back and went back to the eight hour wait in the headline. And it felt a little clickbaity just to like kind of address it. But I think it's a wise move to send him there. But maybe you disagree.

23:11Matt:Well, this is just a personal thing. I think it's right in the name of the publication. I want New York Magazine to stick to New York. I like it. But I and maybe I'm alone in that. But I think I understand why this is an important story, obviously, not just because of the cultural resonance, but also because Phil does have his hands in New York restaurants. Right. Like I think Stan Sabino. He was an investor in Frog Club. And so there is, of course, this like New York, L.A. connection. Yeah, the thing about line waits is it can be like a problem for the restaurant in terms of marketing because then there's this fear of like people won't, you know, and I've had this for myself.

23:49Matt:Like if I hear a restaurant's really busy, I don't even bother going without a reservation. But then often that story kind of becomes its own thing. And then you go, if you had just showed up, there would be no wait at all. So, but I think it's a really fun story. I think he got some really great quotes from Nancy. I like that bit about the thrifty ice cream. And I think it speaks to this moment that we're in, which is that, you know, people crave this kind of comfortable modern diner food. And what is gained and what is lost in sort of the simulacrum of the old school diner.

24:20Emma Orlow:And it's cool to see Larchmont getting this type of buzzy restaurant. Yeah. That neighborhood, by all means, needed this type of space that's open from 8 to 8 every day, a place to hang out. and it seems from the piece, which I think makes it a great New York Magazine story. I'm not sure if I agree. I think that New York Mag is like a national brand, but I appreciate the spirit of your -

24:40Matt:I'm a stickler. You're a stickler.

24:42Emma Orlow:They cover, I mean, they just went up to Minnesota and did a great package there. Yeah. So, but I agree, like maybe stay in your lane. As far as the food content, I think.

24:51Matt:Food content, yeah.

24:51Emma Orlow:Exactly, exactly. But I liked that there's like that Hollywood side of it, right? Because like Phil is obviously very connected and like you know the the kicker is like you know spielberg's been in and his assistant just you know got picked up the patty mill or something or tuna melt i always like this

25:07Matt:idea of like these power lunch spots because it's like that one made me laugh that that kicker where it's like i can't think of a worse place to gossip and have like a meeting than a buzzy new restaurant where you're going to run into all your other food media friends um and i get that's you own the restaurant you want to use it that way but i always think that's funny of like to me the best power lunch is the one where you're like maybe not going to run into people too like go to that

25:31Emma Orlow:like you know like you know Thai town in North Hollywood place if you're going to do a real clandestine rep meeting maybe not the Sunset Tower or this restaurant Max and Helen's but it's always fun I think for us New Yorkers we we like think about LA and as this like faraway place with a different culture and this feels like it's a uniquely LA restaurant yeah I mean

25:52Matt:And I feel like it's also like, you know, like there was so much fanfare around Clark Street, right? Yeah. When it opened. And so I think there we saw maybe five, 10 years ago, like our big burst of modern diners and kind of what that looks like with everyone's personal spin from Golden Diner to Tye Diner. Yeah. And maybe now this is kind of their moment for that.

26:11Emma Orlow:Do you ever go to Montague Diner?

26:13Matt:I do. I go to Montague Diner a bunch. I think. Cool. Yeah. I love it. I love it. I mean, that's also an interesting like those are film people who have taken over. You know, the danger with taking over in old diners is that people always have feelings about what changed. But it's like, I'm so glad people are saving diners at all.

26:29Emma Orlow:Yeah, I mean, S &P is not a diner, but it was a similar idea of like taking over Eisenberg's and bringing kind of a new sensibility with the menu and updating a few things, but not too many things.

26:41Matt:I think that's kind of the gold standard.

26:42Emma Orlow:Yeah, yeah, it really is a gold standard. Well, the third and final story I want to talk about is something that you wrote yesterday for Caper, uncovering the underground cheese sample sale. Terrific work. Again, I'm linking to Caper in the show notes and got to subscribe. I'm sure you'll be charging money at some point.

26:59Matt:Yes, the paywall will be hitting when we launch.

27:02Emma Orlow:Paywall will be hitting. What's the pricing structure right now?

27:05Matt:That I think Dan and Max are still figuring out. So I don't want to speak on that. But I think like the idea is that no matter paywall or not, there will always be like the scoopy kind of bits of who sign on what leads like that will always be free. And then the idea is, you know, like with those higher tiers, eventually we'll be doing events and kind of making it so there's like things that live outside the caper universe than just the website too that you're getting for that.

27:30Emma Orlow:As a Puck fan, I see it. I really appreciate this. So let's talk about this. This is the Send. You profile. Caroline Hess. Yes. You know, the story is about a pop up once a month selling cheese at a wholesale warehouse down in Brooklyn. Yes.

27:47Matt:So Caroline Hess, if you work in the restaurant world, especially in New York, you might know her name. She is a cheese distributor, wholesaler. She sells to restaurants like Levoto Ore, Bridges, Bar Cabawa. And she got her start working at Crown Finish Caves, which I don't know if you remember it. it was for those of the name is cheese aging cave in crown heights that closed in 2022 so she worked there as a sales director and when they closed it she was able to kind of act on that client list that she had built to start her own business so she has this warehouse in east williamsburg in this basement and you know much of that space is for the processing of the cheese the getting it to the restaurants people coming by for tastings and she started slowly doing these warehouse sales to bring in people who are not restaurant people, who are fans of cheese, fans of hers by extension.

28:44Matt:And I'd known about them for a while, but I was truly struck by how intense the fanfare was. So if you can imagine, we're on an industrial street in Brooklyn. There's basically no signage. You're in like kind of one of these loft buildings with many studios. She's in the basement. And when I showed up, I went with a friend and I was like, oh, great. We maybe were there 30 minutes after it started. I was like, oh, great. There's no line. Perfect. I'm so excited. And then the door swings open and there are two separate lines, each going an hour long. Wow. And it was an hour to wait to get samples where you'd like line up, get your plate.

29:22Matt:They had about maybe 15 cheeses or so all sprayed out on the table. You took your little sample with your plate and then you get back on another line and wait another hour to buy the cheese. And so that's already a self-selecting type of person who is willing to wait the two hours. I mean, that day it was also part of the proceeds were going to a great cause, make the road. But in general, I think that's she's been seeing that whether she expected or not, that's become a really interesting secondary part of the business. Right. Like not just being the middleman between the cheese maker and the restaurants, but also this kind of direct to consumer part of it.

29:58Matt:and at least as far as I know, like I've never really seen anything like that as far as like a sample sale for cheese.

30:04Emma Orlow:Yeah, I mean, I think about like Acme used to do their monthly sales. Yes, it's very Acme. Very Acme, but like that was a, you know, different thing. It wasn't as lo-fi and like almost like underground and I think this is -

30:14Matt:And it's quite literally underground. Literally underground.

30:16Emma Orlow:And so what about the cheeses? Like any highlights or any styles?

30:20Matt:Oh, I mean, she had so many blues. She had this one that was wrapped in a fig leaf that was really great from Tennessee. um there was an alpine cheese from switzerland um but it's like you know part of the fun of it is like you get these disposable plates and then you're getting like 15 cheeses and then i'm taking pictures to remember as i go which are the ones that i want to buy um should bread cheese was great but yeah i think like in this report it was about you know the sample sale experience but also like talking to the restaurant owners of about you know what makes her specialty service worth it because obviously it's an investment to prioritize that for your restaurant and there are other um cheese distributors in town sure but you can get plenty of great yeah but to have like that

31:04Emma Orlow:that bespoke curation and somebody who's she really cares she really really cares that's nice

31:09Matt:yeah and you did you buy some cheese i did buy some cheese and i think next time i'll go back with a better game plan which is like some people were smart to split up where one friend was waiting on the sample line one that is the way that's the way but then it you know for me it was like my first time there so i kind of wanted the full experience yeah you wanted two hours of waiting and my and my friend also wanted to to sample so it was like we didn't want to lose out on both

31:31Emma Orlow:but it's the same check who are these people would like give us a little bit of the vibe

31:34Matt:yeah so i mean it's interesting because um caroline for the most part is a one woman show she's doing it all and she you know she was talking about how this is kind of like a very solitary space for her typically so part of that was like getting it to the public otherwise who wouldn't access the space and so she's kind of been posting on tiktok lately about you know just you know her unpacking things like kind of day in the life um so these some of these people are people who probably found her from tiktok other people are friends of friends of friends i think it really is spread through word of mouth but at the sales specifically they're not restaurant people these are like cheese fans who don't already know about her who have heard about it that kind of want this fun underground experience so terrific again go back and read the the full

32:16Emma Orlow:count in in caper another uh story uh or mention i want to bring up is uh our friend chloe frechette and her and her partner paul are opening uh a not one but two cocktail bars in brooklyn and chloe was a dear friend and co-worker at punch when i used to be editor and editor there and and honestly um i've been like when chloe when are you gonna open a restaurant a bar and here it is yeah i'm

32:42Matt:I'm always excited by media people going to open physical spaces too. Very interesting point.

32:48Emma Orlow:Can you hack it, media person?

32:51Matt:Now I'm forgetting, but there's a few other examples recently of food media people leaving to start something physical. But anyway. I'm going to think about that one.

32:59Emma Orlow:There's got to be examples.

33:00Matt:It's a really exciting space. It's massive. It's the old Gertie in Williamsburg. Yep, Gertie. Bi-level space. The top is called Echo Lake. The bottom is undercurrent, which is meant to be a little bit more of an intimate experience. It's a rum bar. A lot of it is Chloe and her partner Paul's collection that they've been amassing for years. And they've really emphasized that they will be working the floor. They will be there. Paul will be the one making drinks. And yeah, I'm excited. I feel like it'll be kind of a hangout for the industry for sure.

33:31Emma Orlow:Great scoop there. I love that news. And finally, I love that you covered a cookbook cover reveal party. Carla Lally Music is one of the authors here at Clarkson Potter and writes amazing books. And I've always enjoyed her work. But I haven't seen a cover reveal party.

33:49Matt:As far as I know, she invented it.

33:51Emma Orlow:She may have invented it or at least modernized it. Yeah. Maybe back in the 50s there was a cover reveal.

33:56Matt:Sure, yeah.

33:56Emma Orlow:And, you know, it was like cookbooks were like the women's section back then. Yes. But you know what? But I love that you did some scenes and party reporting. What did you see of this cookbook cover launch party?

34:06Matt:Well, I think when you're on your third cookbook, right, like there's this energy of like, OK, how do I market it a little bit differently? And so she smartly she had this launch party. Part of it was that, you know, she's built this big subscriber base through her newsletter. And it's a way to, you know, kind of give them a perk because the book doesn't come out until September, which I initially thought was interesting. Like, why now?

34:26Emma Orlow:Yeah.

34:27Matt:But she gathered her community of subscribers and it was in the basement of Parcell Wine Bar in Chinatown. And when you walked in, she had a sheet pan where you could Sharpie with masking tape and your guess of what was on the cover, what food, which was really fun to see. And, you know, then hiding behind a red curtain was the cookbook cover, which she dramatically unveiled with assistants and top hats, which is just such a fun. And originally had posted it on Instagram with this pixelated image. so you know I thought I'm sure other people will copy something similar to that I thought was like a smart way to get people in person and give your subscriber something special I loved it

35:02Emma Orlow:I mean we work in cookbooks here and we're always you know I've seen this book because we're putting it out and it's it's really really good it's it's gonna surprise a lot of people in the best way and honestly a lot we have this like long gap between the cover reveal the on sale yeah the actual on sale date and to make it an event yeah I love it I'm here for it more people should do it I think it's fun to like preview your book, you know, nine months in advance.

35:27Matt:Especially with pre-ordering now being more important than ever. I think that's like a big push for it too.

35:32Emma Orlow:I mean like pre-order to get a ticket to the party.

35:35Matt:Yeah, yeah.

35:35Emma Orlow:Do it that way. I'm not sure if that was her model, but like that – it's very smart. So like what are you working on? I mean I know you're going to have a send in a few days and really what's on your – I'm sure you have a big notes app.

35:49Matt:Yeah. Yeah, I think it's interesting, right? Because I'm figuring out which are the things I want to keep small for the newsletter and which are going to be my big features. But I'm really right now talking to a lot of people about who are the distributors and wholesale people that they care about, that they're excited about, who haven't been profiled. It's like, I want to know who the guy is cleaning the grease trap. I want to know who the guy everyone using is, who's fixing everyone's refrigerators. I really want to do eventually a story about, you know, the remaining restaurant supply shops of the Bowery and sort of the status of that.

36:21Matt:Next week should be a piece about a new Thai curry brand that is a curry that is sold in freeze dried brick form. So it's not pasteurized. And sort of what it how you go from, OK, of an idea for like a new food brand. How do you actually get it onto the shelves of some of these smaller specialty shops?

36:41Emma Orlow:I love that we've covered that. Eliza talked about it in three things, and I love that brand. And I'm forgetting the name. Uncle Ty's Curry.

36:47Matt:Yeah, exactly.

36:48Emma Orlow:But what you just said, the rest of it is so needed. How do you get it on the shelf? Thank you for doing that. Yeah.

36:55Matt:I mean, ideally, this content is meant to be useful, right? Like if you are someone who's maybe starting off in the industry, even if you know you're like on the executive leadership of a major hospitality group, you don't always necessarily know who some of these people are or how their jobs work. And I think, you know, hospitality is such a broad, you know, spectrum of what those jobs look like that I'm really interested in highlighting some of the ones that don't get as much attention who are just as important to making it all run.

37:23Emma Orlow:So, yeah, who are the who's the audience for Kaper?

37:26Matt:Well, I mean, it's kind of B2B. It's in its truest form. It's like people who work in the industry who maybe want to learn different sides of the industry that they don't already know. But also people who maybe like work in the business world who are really interested in restaurants and are just fascinated by it as like cultural stories. And then, you know, fans of restaurants, but also specifically like in New York, people who want that kind of scoopy gossip. So it's B2B done in a more fun, less dry way than maybe some of the way that we tend to think of trade publications. And, yeah, starting with New York, although we'll have some stories that bridge outside of it.

38:07Matt:But we really want to run, like, the local point of view for now.

38:11Emma Orlow:I love it. Yeah. I think there's obviously trades we've been covering in the restaurant industry for decades. Yeah. To do it with your, the talent, Dana and the team, coming from consumer, smart. Because I think this is, when you write about food and restaurants long enough, you become a trade reporter by nature. Yeah. Because we just like we talk to chefs, we talk to the people behind the scenes constantly. So it's like a little bit of a unique situation there.

38:36Matt:Yeah. And it's like bridging both, right? Like we like I said before, like we really do want it to be people who are experts in their industries outside of food media also putting their lens on it.

38:46Emma Orlow:This episode is brought to you by Masterclass. You know how on the show we're always talking to people who've spent decades obsessing over one thing, whether it's modern Korean food, new expressions of the Jewish deli, or the perfect vampiro taco in South LA. That depth of knowledge is the thing I find endlessly fascinating. And honestly, it's a big part of why I'm into masterclass. There are classes taught by some of the best chefs, writers, and thinkers in the world. People who've put in the work. And the lessons are short enough that I can actually fit them in. Thought leaders like Michael Lewis, Amy Poehler, and chefs Gordon Ramsay and Roy Choi all teach their own masterclasses.

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41:02Matt:Kayak gets my flight, hotel, and rental car right, so I can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong.

41:09Emma Orlow:Bro, Skycoin, way better than points. Never fly during a Scorpio full moon. Just tell the manager you'll sue. Instant room upgrade.

41:19Matt:Stop taking bad travel advice. Start comparing hundreds of sites with Kayak and get your trip right.

41:25Emma Orlow:Bad advice? You talking to me?

41:28Matt:Kayak, got that right.

41:31Emma Orlow:Emma, on This Is Taste, we ask guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, Fast and Furious Taste Check, media edition. Are you ready?

41:40Matt:I'm ready for it.

41:41Emma Orlow:What is the first thing you read in the morning and where do you read it?

41:45Matt:I'm really going through like a lot of the neighborhood blogs, like East Village Grieve. They have always kind of like who's up on the community board notes, reading like the style section, the metro section. I find for me, the stories that I get the most of are, you know, beyond following every major food publication. When I'm reading in the morning, those things outside of the theme that I found myself in, it helps me the most to come up with interesting stories.

42:11Emma Orlow:What do you read on actual paper, if anything?

42:14Matt:Nothing. Nothing? I mean, books. Yeah. Yeah. But as far as my daily news conception, nothing.

42:20Emma Orlow:Or do you have any print magazines in your house?

42:22Matt:No.

42:23Emma Orlow:Wow. No, it's cool.

42:25Matt:It's sort of how it is. I feel like so much of what I'm doing, I want to respond to things as they're coming out. So the first thing I'm doing in the morning is also going on the Substack app and going through all my Substacks, from The Angel to Shop Rat to Kristen Holley's Expedite. And I saw someone actually recently created a plugin where you can print out your subsects and make them into, like they'll auto print them into a newspaper format. So maybe I should get into that.

42:50Emma Orlow:It's really cute. I love that. That was like, I saw that too. That was really fun. What was your favorite food publications growing up?

42:55Matt:Food publications growing up. I mean, my mom subscribed to Gourmet and Martha Stewart Living. So those were always in our house. For me, Lucky Peach obviously was really big. And then, you know, I think I had just maybe graduated high school whenever the Food Book Fair first launched, like that earlier era of like food zines and that really first like that wave of like really exciting independent publishing energy were really important to me. That's cool.

43:22Emma Orlow:What do you remember about Lucky Peach as a young?

43:25Matt:As a young person, I mean, it just, you know, at the time it seemed like such a distinct thing from like the Martha Stewart Livings and the gourmets of the world and the art and all of that. And then the, you know, the voice of it was new for me.

43:40Emma Orlow:Yeah. Did you have a relationship with PBS food programming growing up? Did you have a favorite show?

43:46Matt:So not PBS so much as like, you know, the shows that my family would watch a lot were like the best thing I ever ate when it first launched in 2009 on the Food Network. I remember watching the first episode of that. We watched a lot of driver's diners and dives. Yeah. Less so PBS in on the food side. But I mean, later, obviously, like Mind of a Chef.

44:08Emma Orlow:Yeah. Yeah. Chef was great. I mean, but in general, your TV consumption was a lot of Food Network.

44:14Matt:Yeah. Yeah, Food Network and then whenever they launch Cooking Channel. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

44:19Emma Orlow:All right, later. Yeah. When did you know you wanted to work in this field?

44:23Matt:You know, I think it was sometime in college. I think it was like I was piecing together like, okay, I've written for a lot of these cultural publications, but I find myself actually working in food service. And those are the stories I'm really attracted to. But I think like anything, it takes you a while to be like, I am this. Like, you know, at first it's like I'm a writer who likes multiple things and like telling these stories. But then it takes time to be like, I'm a restaurant reporter. So I think in part, probably before I was at Eater, I worked as an editor at Time Out New York. And I think that was like the first time where I really owned that title.

44:54Emma Orlow:Hell yeah. I wrote for Time Out in the early 2000s.

44:57Matt:Yeah. I feel like everyone has come through it in some way. Totally.

44:59Emma Orlow:What a great place to like learn about New York City dining and culture, etc. Yeah. What a great place. Let's talk about YouTube, TikTok, social video.

45:10Matt:Yeah.

45:11Emma Orlow:Are you consuming a lot of it? Where are you at with it? Do you have any favorites?

45:14Matt:Yeah. YouTube, really not at all. Unless I'm kind of watching the splices of videos on Instagram, but TikTok constantly. You know, not just in food, but like a lot of like neighborhood drama. I feel like my feet are so dialed into where I live that I'm like getting really good scoops for that. You know, like whose scaffolding is falling down or like really niche neighborhood things. But on TikTok, I really like Rob Martinez. I think he does such a beautiful job highlighting smaller family-run businesses. I'm really fascinated, and he actually was the one who put me onto it, by Young Kim, the guy who owns Jubilee Grocery.

45:51Matt:I think he uses his TikTok in such a cool way to tell you about sales and changes in the grocery store in a way that I've never seen from a grocery store. Then there's this girl. Her account is called Food Relics. And she's based in London. And the way that she talks about food, it feels like she's kind of reading like a sonnet or like they're just so they're so poetic. And she works in the cheese world and it's often her using cheese in her cooking. And she has such a fun way of like making it not feel pretentious. And but also like beautifully done with her videos. I recall food relics.

46:25Emma Orlow:Yeah. Good. Yeah. Is there like a vertical video moment for Caper?

46:30Matt:I hope so. Yeah. down the line. We're really trying to run, you know, point on the newsletter and get the website launched. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One step of a time.

46:38Emma Orlow:Yes.

46:39Matt:So I'm sure that that will be explored down the line.

46:42Emma Orlow:So where do you want to be in five years with your media career?

46:45Matt:Oh, I hate this question. I know. It's tough. It's kind of cringe.

46:49Emma Orlow:I agree.

46:49Matt:No, it's not cringe. It's important to think, like, why are we doing any of this? Like, where's it all adding up to? What's it all add up

46:55Emma Orlow:to? Okay, fair.

46:56Matt:Yeah. You know, I think it's just being in a place where I'm really confident in the work that I'm doing. You know, I feel like in some ways this is just the start of my career in a lot of ways. And I want to feel like I'm constantly learning and like really proud of like the depth of the reporting that I'm doing. So, you know, whatever form that takes, I'm excited to see it. I'm really excited to see Kaper grow.

47:18Emma Orlow:And what's it like with this structure as being a founder, having equity in a startup? It's very rare. Yeah. Progressive and new and hopefully more startups will actually follow this path. But what was that like kind of talking about as a talking about the company as a as a shareholder, as a partner?

47:35Matt:Oh, I mean, it's such an honor. Like, I've never been involved really in the business side of conversations before. So, you know, like talking through like, OK, you know, who are audiences? Why are we positioning ourselves this way? Like, you know, what are how are we going to set up this business to do it? I think obviously having equity in a company also incentivizes you to think maybe in a more larger picture way than in other traditional food media roles. Like, what should our partnerships be? You know, what are our events? What does it say about the company? So I'm excited to see where that takes us.

48:11Emma Orlow:It gives you all agency. It gives you all incentive and aligns. You know, there isn't as much. I mean, there's hierarchical structure. You have a boss. But, like, it's a little bit different when you actually have your name on the door.

48:22Matt:Oh, of course. You feel so empowered. And it's such an honor. Yeah.

48:25Emma Orlow:I love it. Again, I'm rooting for Caper. I'm really excited about the work you're all putting out. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you joining This Is Taste.

48:34Matt:Thank you. Thank you for having me.

48:40Emma Orlow:This Is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House Theme music by Steve Rydell Episode portraits by Luis Zergon Pomeroy Logo design by Ellie Skirzat and Ian Dingham Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com And make sure to subscribe to our newsletter To keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste

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