737: Read the Cookbook. No, Really. Inside Tanya Bush's Narrative Baking Memoir.

13:49Tanya Bush:You end up in Italy working at an AgroTurismo. And what I like about this section is that we have so many chefs on the show talking about their incredible stages. and all the amazing experiences they get on traveling for their work. And you had the opposite. And it really plays in the narrative. But talk about ending up in Italy and working here.

14:14This Is TASTE Hosts:Totally. I mean, I think I was lusting for my eat, pray, love moment. Like, aren't we all, you know? We really are. And it was a lot of eating, not so much praying and loving. It was an extraordinarily weird experience. And it's funny because I wrote an essay pretty soon after I came back about that time for Guernica magazine. And I was really fixated on like the discomfort and sort of like torturous sensibility of having to eat vast quantities of food, which was really a part of the job. Like I was eating on display and I was very much sort of like upkeeping this performance of like the American intern in paradise.

14:54This Is TASTE Hosts:Yeah, which, you know, felt very complicated for everybody.

14:57Tanya Bush:A prop, essentially, for Zagatumismo as being the American intern. Totally. And having to sit with the guests and serve them and be kind of here as, yeah, the, I don't know, like the scenery, essentially.

15:08This Is TASTE Hosts:Yeah, yeah. And I think what was sort of fun to revisit this for the book was that, you know, as uncomfortable as, you know, the eating, the gastronomical aspect of it was, I also think it was an extraordinarily clarifying experience for me in terms of like my baking identity and like interest in pastry. because I think like there had been this real moment where I was like, I want to be a pastry chef, right? Like this like rarefied term. It's extraordinarily professional at, you know, pastry as art sort of perfection is sort of the ultimate pursuit. And I think that I was bearing witness to what that sort of looked like in the context of the agriturismo.

15:50This Is TASTE Hosts:And I realized that it really wasn't for me actually at all that like these sort of persnickety fastidious desserts were really antithetical to the type of dessert that I loved and wanted to serve. So it was really fun to revisit it for the book because I actually felt like in retrospect, I have a new take on this, that this was really like an importantly clarifying experience for me and in my sort of, you know, sense of food identity that I didn't, I, this was not the kind of baking or pastry that I wanted to make, that like I wanted something messier, a little more homemade feeling, a little more communal.

16:27This Is TASTE Hosts:And, you know, I don't think I would have come to that without having been confronted with, you know, the alternative.

16:33Tanya Bush:Yeah. And this guy, the chef there is doing these plated desserts with foams. And really, you're trying to get your baking onto the table. And he's just not letting you. He's an ultimate gatekeeper.

16:46This Is TASTE Hosts:Yeah.

16:47Tanya Bush:I mean, looking back at that time, I mean, did you have the skills to bake there at that time?

16:51This Is TASTE Hosts:I think I had the skills to bake there because like I I was pretty confident in home baking at that time. And it wasn't such a like massive group that I was suddenly moving from like, you know, you know, baking for like six people at home or something to like, you know, a 60 seat restaurant. You know, I totally understand their skepticism and reticence to really involve an intern. I think they ordinarily had had culinary students and I didn't have any formal training. but I also think that I was just not really willing to play the role they wanted me to play and so that there was like just indelible friction there from the offset and we just like we didn't entirely vibe um but you know I still feel I won't spoil anything but like you know it sort of erupts in this way at the end of that season and you know I still feel that sting of humiliation and shame about what happened there.

17:46Tanya Bush:Yeah, you get that, that you regret what you did. And again, read the book. The guests, too, like the Americans who go for their, quote unquote, culinary school at the Aguotermes.

17:57This Is TASTE Hosts:Oh, yeah.

17:58Tanya Bush:Tuscany. I mean, I love the way you paint these. What are the conversations like at the table with these folks?

18:04This Is TASTE Hosts:It was wild. I mean, I have like diaries and diaries full of these conversations because honestly, like my refuge was sort of like documenting what was happening while I was there. And there was just a wild number of strange conversations going on. And I do think also, you know, like these are really like wealthy Americans who are in search of this very particular experience. And I did feel very much sort of like I'm only relevant insofar as I am helping you have the best time possible, which like, of course, should have its pleasure, right? Like hospitality to me is so much about helping people feel good and fed and sated.

18:43This Is TASTE Hosts:But I think that at this particular juncture in my life, that's not what I was looking for. You know, I really wanted to like bake and I had this sort of, you know, delusional sense of what I would learn there that, you know, was quickly punctured when I arrived.

18:57Tanya Bush:There's an alternate reality where the chef actually pulls you aside and teaches you a few things on the side, but the least generous pastry chef you had worked under. I mean, the scene where a guest drops a scalding teabag into your hand and it gives you welts is wild.

19:13This Is TASTE Hosts:Yeah, you can't make that shit up.

19:15Tanya Bush:You can't make that shit up, which is why you got a journal when you're on the road.

19:18This Is TASTE Hosts:Exactly.

19:19Tanya Bush:Well, you returned to New York and I wanted to get to the next season. I really like this section. I think many listeners work in the industry or have aspirations to work in the industry. And I love how you write about throwing yourself into a role at a busy Brooklyn cafe bakery. and I just it's I was I felt anxiety for you you were like she can't do it yeah I mean spoiler you're great you run it so I knew you could do it but I knew that like throwing yourself in to to become a pastry associate at a at a production bakery and knowing that you really didn't have the culinary school background and throwing yourself into it doing the like you know the the stage and doing the test and then eventually ending up there.

20:09Tanya Bush:I love the anxiety. What's it like just entering New York City's pastry world? Kind of like, you know, you start at like 60 miles per hour. I mean, it's not really a slow roll in.

20:21This Is TASTE Hosts:Totally. Well, I think that at that juncture, I felt like I had very little to lose.

20:27Tanya Bush:Yeah, right like that too.

20:28This Is TASTE Hosts:So when you're just sort of like, and here we go, free fall, you know? And I do think that's one of the pleasures of being young is sort of that you're like, well, like the stakes are so high and they're also so low because I don't have that many like responsibilities to attend to. And you can kind of just do things. And I think that this also was a moment, right, where it was like, you know, the world was waking up from this like long hibernation and people were coming out and about. But like restaurants were really in need of workers. Like it was it was a particularly lucky moment because there had been this like mass exodus from restaurants like in the wake of the pandemic.

21:06This Is TASTE Hosts:But it was extraordinarily anxiety producing because, you know, I had never I didn't know that you needed to like label a court. Yeah. Or, you know, like I didn't I didn't know anything about like health inspection or, you know, food safety. And it was very much a sort of like learning as I was going. But I do think that like so many of the bakers that I know and love and admire have very much just sort of learned on the job, right? Like, I don't think like in in this day and age, I feel like it's rare or at least fewer and farther between for people to shell out the money to go to culinary school when you really can sort of learn as you go and, you know, find mentorship, find like other bakers or, you know, cooks that you admire and try and learn from them as much as you can, you know, alongside the, you know, host of like baking videos and influencers that you follow online as well.

21:56Tanya Bush:I think you're humble. I mean, you enter this production bakehouse and the punch list is like the bake-off punch list is like long and like I'm feeling the pressure and you're

22:05This Is TASTE Hosts:writing in a beautiful way and I wanted you to feel anxious so I'm glad that that was yeah I know it's good I think that's why this is you're me and I'm you yeah it's a new entry into this

22:14Tanya Bush:back house memoir as I said at the top I think we uh we've had some great ones and I think you know I look at like Ruth Reichel as an example um not back of house but writing about people in the food world so I liken you to Ruth's writing and I I just think like when you're learning on the fly, but you have this busy cafe that you have to produce pastry. Tanya, like, how the hell did you get through that? Because I feel like you are a quick learner and you've said it, you write about it, but it still takes a lot to jump in and bake.

22:44This Is TASTE Hosts:I mean, you stay humble and you know that you're going to fail, like, often. Like, there were many and continue to be batches of things that I will make that just don't turn out the way that you expect. And I think that, like, that was one of the reasons I felt very drawn to this form, right, of a narrative cookbook was because I think that like often pastry books and cookbooks more generally are these sort of like glossy tomes. They're aspirational and they're showing you like the finished product and in its, you know, perfect form. And they're not showing you like the mess and anxiety that preceded it.

23:16This Is TASTE Hosts:Right. And so to me, it felt very important to be like, okay, this was not smooth sailing. It was totally not smooth sailing for me to like jet off to Italy and have this weird internship. And it was not smooth sailing, you know, inducting myself into this, like, you know, pastry scene in Brooklyn where I had very little experience. And I, you know, do fail and humiliate myself on multiple occasions. And that is something that you're going to read about and maybe, like, you know, that resonates. And then you'll see the finished recipe, right? And then you'll see, like, okay, this narrator, this writer has sort of, you know, splayed herself out on the page and shown me that, like, this is a fundamental part of the process to, you know, be anxious, to be a little depressed, to not have things work out the first time.

23:59This Is TASTE Hosts:And that's OK. And I think that's really like nice and important for baking, especially because, you know, baking is often considered like, you know, chemistry and the science. And if you don't do everything exactly right or abide by the rules to a T, it's not going to work out. And that's just really not how I experienced learning pastry. I was like flailing about in my galley kitchen, You know, making mistakes left and right and making mistakes left and right at a bakery. And I think, one, people are more forgiving than you give them credit for. And two, you have to be more forgiving of yourself and realize that when you're learning something, you know, it's not always going to come so easily, but you pick up and try again.

24:36Tanya Bush:Did you feel when you were learning to bake professionally that nailing, you know, these golden ratios was important? And then kind of once you have the ratios down, you kind of kind of expand the creativity. You're like a hyper creative person, not just in this memoir, but like your work at Cake Scene and just like you're, you know, more than just a pastry chef. You're a creative person. And I think it shows in your work. But like I love the idea of the baking ratio. I've written about it in books that I've written. And I think talk about the foundation and how you got that. And then you were able to spin off into these recipes.

25:10This Is TASTE Hosts:Totally. Well, I mean, yeah, I think like ratios are extraordinarily important. And also like, you know, figuring out a base recipe that feels like really good to you, that works in your body, that you feel like is right. And from there, I think figuring out the moments and opportunities to like insert your own palate and taste into a pastry or into a dessert is so important. So, like, I was making a caramel this weekend at the restaurant, and it's a miso caramel, and it's a recipe in the book. And we were low on heavy cream, and I was like, okay, like, I know the amount of liquid that is going into this recipe, right?

25:46This Is TASTE Hosts:And we have apple cider. Like, let's play with apple cider, right? And so then I reduced the apple cider, and I made a syrup, and then I, you know, used half of that in place of half of the heavy cream. And it's, you know, utterly delicious. And I think, you know, when you have a general sense for, you know, technique and ratios, you understand where you can play. And I think that, you know, cakes and pastries and, you know, so many different sort of elements and, you know, items in pastry are totally like rife for experimentation. And I and maybe it's like misogyny or something that like everyone, you know, because that historically baking has been like the women's domain.

26:24This Is TASTE Hosts:But, you know, it seems and the way that I was teaching myself so much more akin to cooking than is often written about. Like I am touching and tasting and smelling and noticing as I bake because that's just how I was cooking at home.

26:39Tanya Bush:As you would a savory. As you would a savory cook. On the stovetop.

26:42This Is TASTE Hosts:And those things so deeply translate to baking. And of course, there are like parameters to adhere to. But within the margins, especially when you begin to notice things, you can really play.

26:55Tanya Bush:I feel that's how Brooks Headley looks at it. I just talk a lot about the way he thinks about his pastry as superiority, but previously at Del Posto, different styles of desserts. But he, like yourself, knew the ratios and then can actually expand and do like the move with the apple cider vinegar. Totally. So cool.

27:14This Is TASTE Hosts:I mean, yeah, he's a North Star. I feel like, you know, Fancy Desserts was a book that I had early on that was so formative and important. And also, I mean, even beyond like the genius of the recipes, which like are referenced in this book, he's a damn good writer. He actually just wrote a piece for our new issue of Cake Scene that is extraordinary. I mean, it's like so singular in voice and exhilarating and pizzazzy. And I, you know, that sensibility is entirely threaded through Fancy Desserts. and I think that was one of the first books that I, cookbooks that I read that I was like, I could read thousands of pages of this and I still would want more, you know?

27:52Tanya Bush:I mean, I remember the scene from that book where he is basically breaking out of his pastry job in D.C. and taking his books with him. Do you remember that scene?

28:03This Is TASTE Hosts:Yes, I do. He's like climbing a fence with all the books and breaking out of the restaurant

28:08Tanya Bush:or breaking in or something like that.

28:09This Is TASTE Hosts:There are so many wild and incredible moments in that book.

28:12Tanya Bush:That book is such a classic and it's a reminder just to go back and read it.

28:17This Is TASTE Hosts:Totally, totally. And I think that that's it's an important point that like as much as like I think that there are like less like strictly like narrative cookbooks that are like, you know, where the recipes and the story are equally constitutive of the project. It's truly 50-50. There are so many unbelievable cookbooks with just like absolutely genius, brilliant writing. and I think for a while I was maybe only like reading books that like were more oriented towards the recipe and in researching this book I was just like immersing myself. I mean like Natasha Pickowitz, an incredible writer, like Everyone Hot Pot, like so beautiful.

28:54This Is TASTE Hosts:You know, I think there's so many books like this that even if they aren't narrative cookbooks, they have that like extraordinarily, you know, singular voice, which is really what I crave in books in general.

29:04Tanya Bush:Yeah, because, I mean, we look at it here at Penguin Random House with art divisions and cookbooks. I mean, the cookbook can be many things. Totally. But certainly for many, it's not a vehicle to make something. We're still, like, making literary works. Totally. And even if it looks like the word count is low, it's just read the cookbook. Read it.

29:24This Is TASTE Hosts:100%.

29:25Tanya Bush:Read the word.

29:26This Is TASTE Hosts:Yeah, and I think that, like, the industry in certain ways has kind of, like, bifurcated, like, storytelling and recipe writing. Like, you know, obviously there are like, you know, there are so many memoirs with recipes, which often to me will feel like the recipes are sort of this like tacked on addendum that like was like this compulsory part of the process or something. But it's rare to find books that are like really compellingly like, you know, intermingling the two, you know?

29:52Tanya Bush:Yeah, yeah. You're definitely an entry into that genre. Well, I want to talk about the going back to your home kitchen after this. You've been working at the production bakehouse in Brooklyn. and then you're back at home and kind of finding your voice and it's kind of a rejection of what you had in Italy and maybe taking some of the experiences from the bakehouse. And I wanted to ask you about this section, which I think is a great segue into your work at Little Egg. And like, how did you find your voice, Tanya? And define your style that you were kind of writing. You're like, oh God. But you knew it was coming.

30:29This Is TASTE Hosts:How does one self-define?

30:31Tanya Bush:Podcasts are all about the self-definition. The self-definition. Who am I? Let's hear it. Let's hear it. Oh, God.

30:36This Is TASTE Hosts:I mean, the whole question of the book is like, who am I when I don't know who I am? A lot of the baking that I do now is informed by the ethos of Little Egg as a restaurant, which is we're a community restaurant. We use local and organic ingredients whenever possible. We're very seasonally oriented, which was also a big part of the book. It's structured over the course of a year. And the recipes get more difficult as the book progresses. but also they're seasonal, you know, like they're very much rooted in the in the moment that they're made. So I do think I'm like very much committed to seasonality as like, you know, most chefs are.

31:11But I think like nostalgic flavors in sort of like in unconventional forms feels very much like what I like in a pastry.

31:20This Is TASTE Hosts:Like I think the cinnamon roll is a really great example, actually, because so we serve like a brown butter hojicha iteration. and right now on the menu we have a tahini cream cheese cinnamon bun and you know I think that like tahini and cinnamon was actually not a combination that I had really had but I was looking for something that was going to make the cinnamon but a little more savory because I think often you know I think that one of the you know hopeful hallmarks of my desserts is that they're never too sweet and they're never very sweet they're really like towing that line between sort of just sweet enough and satisfying the like impulse for sugar.

32:01This Is TASTE Hosts:But, you know, I think like when I tried that combination, I was like, oh, yes, this makes so much sense. And I'm sure like so many people have done it before. But I was like, this is really like special and fun to get to take this ingredient that I like have used in other contexts, but never in the context of a cinnamon bun. Right. And, you know, use it in both the sort of the filling and the frosting. So to me, I think, again, sort of to the point about like recipes and ratios, I think a lot about like, you know, flavor combinations that feel like both like familiar and unexpected to me and nostalgic because I think Little Egg is very much about nostalgia.

32:34This Is TASTE Hosts:You know, like we have like a sort of southern influence and it's like very homey, comforting diner fare. Right. Like we are essentially a diner. So people are coming to us because they want like a delicious griddled corn muffin or like a big bowl of grits or, you know, a, you know, sumptuous katsu sandwich. And so I want all of my pastries to feel very much in line with that. Like they're like the perfect bookend to the meal. They're familiar and nostalgic, but also like there's something about it that feels a little different.

33:04Tanya Bush:I love that description. And back to cinnamon roll. What's the technical pastry chef term for the center that we all want?

33:14This Is TASTE Hosts:You mean like the gooey?

33:15Tanya Bush:Yeah.

33:16This Is TASTE Hosts:The supple center?

33:17Tanya Bush:The supple center? I don't think that's a technical term. We could riff on this because, like, I mean, so many cinnamon rolls, you know, you're at, like, the outer, you know, two-thirds. And it's like, what are you guys doing here?

33:29This Is TASTE Hosts:Totally.

33:30Tanya Bush:How do you think about this, like, ratio?

33:32This Is TASTE Hosts:Well, this reminds me when I was a kid, I would always, much to the chagrin of my parents, hollow out the loaves of bread we would get. I would literally just like I would just go in with my little claw and like extract the soft interior and it would look like a mouse had just like gotten into our pantry. And so I'm very familiar with the impulse towards like this, the soft center, the best part. Right. I mean, you know, I think it's a lot about like your brioche base. I think it's about proof time. I think it's about, you know, we are bathing ours in heavy cream so that it is like staying really like soft and supple.

34:08This Is TASTE Hosts:But also like, you know, the pleasure of a pastry is that like every part might be a little different, right? Like it's getting baked. You know, the outside is going to be a little crisper and there's a little bit more chew. And then, you know, the pleasure is you're working your way to the center and hopefully you can like save it for the end, you know?

34:25Tanya Bush:There are some psychos who probably like the outer side. Not me. Who liked the chicken breast over the dark meat. Good Lord. I mean, sorry listeners. They are wrong. They are wrong. So wrong. For the record. Totally. I feel you. I have to say like, I'm not trying to avoid it. There are love stories in this book. And there are personal relationships in this book.

34:44This Is TASTE Hosts:Yeah.

34:45Tanya Bush:And I think that that makes it more than just like Tanya learning to cook. It's like Tanya learning to deal with relationships, personal relationships. I mean, what was it like to write about the boyfriend and the crush?

35:00This Is TASTE Hosts:Yeah. Well, I think that because so much of this had transpired, you know, before, I mean, all of it had transpired before I was writing it, I really knew what I felt comfortable writing about and what I didn't feel comfortable writing about. But, you know, this is also like it's a year and a life. It's a snapshot, right? Like, I think that to me, cookbooks are so special because they're like they're an archive of a moment. And so I wasn't giving the reader every detail, right? Like I was being very deliberate about what I was sharing, which was, you know, obviously like vulnerable and intimate.

35:32This Is TASTE Hosts:And I do think that like I had yet to read like a compelling representation in the food world of what it feels like to feel very old and young at the same time in a long-term relationship when you're, you know, trying to figure out who you are and what will give you a sense of meaning and purpose as the world is crumbling. So it felt actually, like, extraordinarily important and constitutive to my experience of learning to bake. Because I was trying to, like, individuate and identify who I was alongside someone else, right? You know, we had been together for five years at that point already. It just felt like very much what was happening in, like, the wings of my baking and the recipe, right?

36:10This Is TASTE Hosts:And so, like, it's a story about appetite and falling in love with your own ability and also trying to figure out what it means to be in love with someone else. to, you know, court pleasure as opposed to happiness and that like the sort of divide between those two sort of impulses. So it was, you know, obviously it's sort of strange now, I think, to be, you know, years after I finished the book, you know, exposing this part of my life in this particular way, especially because, as you know, I was like entirely anonymous on the Internet for a long time. And I was writing personally, but very much in a way that, you know, sort of invited the reader to imagine themselves, you know, in my position.

36:53This Is TASTE Hosts:And I do think that like, as much as there is some disclosure in this book, and there is disclosure for sure, I also think, as I was saying to you earlier, you know, these are characters, you know, the boyfriend, the crush, the, you know, sort of self-involved young narrator trying to figure out who she is that are very familiar, right? They're archetypes in a certain way, and these are particular iterations of that. But I did really want the reader to be able to imagine themselves into this scenario and remember that, you know, totally weird, uncomfortable time of coming of age and, you know, feeling like you're outgrowing a relationship and wondering if that's true.

37:31This Is TASTE Hosts:And, you know, in a certain way, it was like, read your way into the narrative cookbook in the same way that when one follows a recipe, they are sort of embodying what has come before them by the recipe writer. You know, They are literally sort of collapsing that space. I think that this book is hopefully inviting people to really like return to that moment of existential dread and questioning and to imagine themselves into their own narrative cookbook.

37:58Tanya Bush:I'm into it. I think you paint a picture of a post-pandemic coming out of the Malaise, these hot Brooklyn nights that I think many who lived here or lived around the country experienced and really seeing this. I think that time and place, you know, right out of lockdown was crazy shit.

38:17This Is TASTE Hosts:We were all feral. We were like, we, everyone was, everyone was hungry for experience. Like our appetites had not been sated in years, you know? So, and I do think that that was so much of what was happening for me at that moment. You know, I was like, what else? What does the world have to offer me? What do I have to offer the world?

38:36Tanya Bush:Well, I'm going to leave it there. Read the book. Pick it up. It's so terrific. No spoilers, but there is a great twist at the end. So I reckon you pick it up. You're here. I want to talk to you. You know, Liza and I chat all the time and host the show. And we've had you on many times talk about Cake Scene. But I want to take the opportunity to talk to you. We haven't done this.

38:56This Is TASTE Hosts:Hell yeah, I know.

38:57Tanya Bush:I love the work you and Liza put out. I think that it's some of our best food writing. And I'm so happy to work alongside Liza and work on edits. And you do it as well. So I feel like we both share a lot in that way. She's our queen. She is our queen. And I want to hear about the next issue of Cakezine. I know about it, but I want to hear what you got to say.

39:20This Is TASTE Hosts:Okay. Hell yes. Special preview here, folks. For sure. So as you might have heard, we have moved into meteor territory. We're doing Steakzine as our next issue. We actually just sent it to the printer like a week and a half ago. So we're very excited to move sort of beyond the pastry case. It's honestly an incredible issue. It's like, I think, our best yet. I mean, of course, the theme is quite topical, you know, in the sort of like inversion of the food pyramid and like the protein maxing of it all. You know, whatever the RFK junior of it all. But it's not just a like topical response to what's happening in the world.

39:59This Is TASTE Hosts:It's very much a sort of like their historical and personal and experimental explorations of steak in very unexpected ways, which I think is, you know, very much a hallmark of the cake scene approach. We've got this incredible story by Brooks that's about, you know, what it's like to own like a lacto-vegetarian restaurant in a meat-hungry town and how, you know, he sort of charts, you know, his first experience in the kitchen cooking on his own. And that was meat. And he really sort of like delves into that moment. And it's, you know, just it's Brooks. It's just incredible. We have this amazing new format helmed by Michelle Moses, who is our fiction editor now, where we commissioned five different fiction writers that we love and admire to write from the perspective of a particular role at like the platonic ideal of a steakhouse.

40:46This Is TASTE Hosts:So we've got the maitre d', the server, the bartender, the cook, and it all sort of adds up to this like kaleidoscopic portrayal of a steakhouse. And they sort of all interweave in interesting ways and it makes you feel like you're there. And so, you know, this is like a special issue. And we thought a lot about ways in which we could make it feel both, you know, very much a cake scene publication, but also experiment with new forms.

41:13Tanya Bush:I can't wait to read it. When is it out around?

41:15This Is TASTE Hosts:It is out in early April.

41:17Tanya Bush:Early April. Yeah.

41:18This Is TASTE Hosts:Pre-orders are coming soon. I know. Time is weird.

41:20Tanya Bush:Yeah, yeah, yeah. We may have pre-orders available when we run this, so I'll link to all that. But definitely subscribe to the newsletter. It's a great newsletter. And for all the events, I know you've got some cool events planned. You do. I love it. I love it so much. Well, Tanya, I want to ask you about your peers in pastry. I think that one big part about what you and Eliza have fostered through Cake Scene and then your work at Little Egg is like you are all about community and bringing so many voices together, either through pop-ups, through fundraisers, through the magazine. I want to hear from you.

41:48This Is TASTE Hosts:Who are some of your peers that we may know, maybe they've been on the show, or others

41:53Tanya Bush:who we might not know, who you really respect?

41:55This Is TASTE Hosts:Oh, there are so many. Caitlin Wong, who is the pastry chef at Uma, which is a new bakery and cafe in Flatbush that I went to this weekend, is just truly an incredible pastry chef. She was like my baking hotline while I was writing the book. Like if my brioche wasn't proofing properly, I'd be like, Caitlin, what's going on? And she's just a wealth of knowledge and also just has like a very similar palate to me. I think like everything she makes is just like perfectly seasoned and creative. Like I had this like focaccia studded with scallions that she sort of said was her take on a scallion pancake focaccia.

42:32This Is TASTE Hosts:And it was divine. She is just so talented. Great idea there. And yeah, you've got to go. You've got to check it out.

42:38Tanya Bush:Yeah, Uma.

42:39This Is TASTE Hosts:Uma, it's incredible. You know, I think a lot of people who are named in the book are, you know, maybe aspirationally people who I would think of as peers. I think like Drea Tensio, who is the chef at Salty Lunch Lady in Ridgewood. I have always adored and admired her sweets and her savory food as well. But I think she really takes like a cook's mentality to desserts. And so everything really is quite balanced. And, you know, she's sort of a lighting buttercream in favor of more like tangy moments. And just it's so like delicious and comforting and nostalgic. Like there are just so many slices of cake that I've eaten there that I'm like, this is the best cake I've ever had.

43:20This Is TASTE Hosts:She had this like peanut butter and jelly cake that I was like, oh, I am changed.

43:26Tanya Bush:I mean, hard to change. There's a lot of great peanut butter and jelly pastries in our world.

43:30This Is TASTE Hosts:This one was special. What's it doing?

43:33Tanya Bush:It's not buttercream.

43:34This Is TASTE Hosts:It's not buttercream. I'm trying to remember because it's now been probably like six months since you had it on the menu. But it's like a really like plush and delightful yellow sponge. Cool. I think some kind of basically like tart jam. I'm pretty sure she was doing raspberry at that time. And then like just like a sumptuous, rich, decadent peanut butter frosting. and I think also had some peanut crunch on top. So it had everything. It has that nutty savoriness and the brightness from the jam and the sort of nostalgia from the yellow cake. And I was just like, oh, this is everything I want in a dessert.

44:10Tanya Bush:That's great. One more. Give us one more.

44:12This Is TASTE Hosts:Ooh. This is actually maybe less of an obvious thought, I mean, because there's just so many incredible bakers and pastry chefs. But Nico Villaseñor, who is the CDC at Smithereens, and also has like a robust pastry background, is just truly an incredible cook and baker specifically. He like had a long tenure at Four Horsemen and he's bopped around. And he does make these like extraordinarily like thoughtful desserts, but he really does treat them like a cook does. Like he, I write about this in the book, but he was the chef at Fride for a while. And I remember like having a glass of wine there and he just whipped up this dessert where he had like toasted some dates on the stove in brown butter and like a little drizzle of like honey on top.

45:00This Is TASTE Hosts:And it was just, it was a reminder that like the simplest things are the best things. And that like you could be laboring for days over like a rough puff or a hand pie or whatever it is. But that like the ingredients that are coming together in six minutes on the pan as a dessert with a dash of heavy cream is going to be better than anything you've ever imagined.

45:21Tanya Bush:Yeah, and Nico's been mentioned on the show, Eliza's.

45:23This Is TASTE Hosts:Oh, he's, I mean, he's Slays. He's just such an incredible, and I think the desserts at Smithereens are so good. Nick Tamburo is the chef there as well. I'm sure you've had, I think you've had him on.

45:33Tanya Bush:Yeah, Nick has been on, yep.

45:34This Is TASTE Hosts:And I just think that, like, yeah, everything they do is really, like, thoughtful and well-executed and playful.

45:40Tanya Bush:I mean, it's a great reason, listeners, like, you just can't skip dessert.

45:46This Is TASTE Hosts:You can't.

45:47Tanya Bush:Like, at a restaurant? No. At a restaurant, like, figure it out. people like figure it out like maybe it's order the one more less appetite whatever but like or

45:56This Is TASTE Hosts:you know what my hot take yeah order dessert first i used to do this wait how does that work um wait you mean like okay like base your meal off of the dessert that you're going to have so literally be like okay like i really want the cheesecake i'm gonna order the cheesecake now we're gonna have a glass of wine with our cheesecake and then we can get into the you no risotto.

46:18Tanya Bush:I mean, I'm so down with that. I also just am so down with, like, dessert tasting counters. And I feel like...

46:23This Is TASTE Hosts:Totally.

46:23Tanya Bush:Horse-style dessert tasting counters, I've been saying it for years, we need more of them in our lives. Like, instead of going to the bar and having three cocktails, why don't you just do a tasting menu?

46:32This Is TASTE Hosts:Totally. Same price. Or even, like, even, uh, like, more bars with dessert options. That's cool. Where I think very much, like, I really do love, like, Romans, obviously, is an incredible restaurant, and one of my favorite things to do is get, like, a, you know, like, after dinner drink and the chocolate sorbet there. And I wish that it was more common. And that's a restaurant, obviously, so it's, you know, hard to do that when it's a busy night because, you know, you want them to make their money. But, you know, it's hard to do that more generally. But I wish that more bars had just like two cake options on the menu because like I would linger and loiter and probably order both, you know.

47:11Tanya Bush:Order dessert first is a great idea.

47:12This Is TASTE Hosts:Yeah. Well, a backwards day, folks.

47:14Tanya Bush:Yeah, backwards day. And I feel like the restaurants will play ball with you.

47:19This Is TASTE Hosts:Oh, they do. They do. There's always this moment of sort of, huh? And then I think they respect the decision because they're like, you're marching to the beat of your own drum, girl.

47:30Tanya Bush:How many little egg diners, what's the percentage that are just ordering a straight dessert? Nothing else?

47:35This Is TASTE Hosts:I don't know the answer to that. I think a lot of the cruller is pretty much a staple on everyone's table. But I think honestly probably less than, I think a lot of people are really going to egg because they're like, it's nine in the morning and they're really hungry and they want something like so rich and delicious. They want a biscuit, they want a gravy, they want their eggs.

47:56Tanya Bush:Such a great restaurant. Yeah. Come visit. Yeah, absolutely.

47:59This Is TASTE Hosts:But what I wanted to tell you is that my daughter is a very good study. Semesterbeitrag, laptop, books, software, phone, internet. So a master is really expensive. Oh, tell her, she can get it back. Yeah, you mean from the tax, right? But she doesn't pay. No, the curse word is a loss contract. She does it very simple with Visa, and if she works then, it's called Kaching! That's it? Save! Visa, Steuer! Get your money back! Now, try it out for free!

48:26Tanya Bush:Tanya, this is Taste West, we ask guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid-fire, fast-and-furious taste check. Are you ready? I'm so ready. The best fruit.

48:36This Is TASTE Hosts:Pears.

48:37Tanya Bush:What? Tell me about it.

48:38This Is TASTE Hosts:rare choice i love it um i think pears are an underrated fruit yeah like a really perfectly ripe juicy tangy pear yeah is so just satisfying we have a pear pie on at the restaurant right now it's a hand pie um and i it's really made me fall in love with pears again and i think that's because it's really hard to often find like that peak ripeness pear we're getting them sort of hardened from the grocery store, but they are just, it's better than an apple. It's juicy. It has sort of the pleasures of stone fruit when it's, you know, ripe to the point that you want it to be ripe. And it's, you know, and it's so delicious.

49:21Tanya Bush:I would love to do a podcast investigation with pears. With pears? Let's talk about pears. With you all day. Let's do it. The worst vegetable.

49:29This Is TASTE Hosts:Okay, this is a silly answer, but broccoli.

49:32Tanya Bush:I mean, it's a serious answer because I cannot disagree more.

49:36This Is TASTE Hosts:Really? Oh, because you love broccoli?

49:38Tanya Bush:I love broccoli. But I'm super into why you don't like it.

49:42This Is TASTE Hosts:I just, I have the broccoli gene. Like, I really, it tastes inedible to me.

49:48Tanya Bush:Yeah.

49:48This Is TASTE Hosts:I really feel like I'm trying to eat a little tree and I shouldn't be eating a little tree. It doesn't agree with me.

49:54Tanya Bush:The stock. Yeah. Yeah. It's so fibrous. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

49:57This Is TASTE Hosts:And it has such a, like, particular flavor. and it's really just been, it feels so silly because it's, you know, it feels like the vegetable that kids, you know, refuse to eat. And, you know, as an adult, I'm like, no broccoli.

50:12Tanya Bush:You're still there. I'm still there. Totally, totally. I agree, disagree on that one. All right. What is your typical breakfast?

50:20This Is TASTE Hosts:Oatmeal.

50:20Tanya Bush:Oh, cool.

50:21This Is TASTE Hosts:Or cinnamon toast. It's one of the two. Yeah. Oatmeal for when I, like, really need energy and protein to power me into the day. ahead and cinnamon toast when i need like a little blip of pleasure is are you baking the cinnamon toast no it's literally it's so easy um i actually just wrote like a little ditty about this for nicola lamb sub stock um but it is yeah she's amazing um but it's so lo-fi you cannot mess it up it's literally any bread you have in your house you toast it you slather it in butter salted unsalted does not matter you sprinkle some sugar brown sugar white sugar terminato sugar doesn't matter some cinnamon add some salt because you want that you know you want that it to taste more like itself like flake salt yeah i like i like yeah i like flaky salt um but anything will really do sure and it's heaven it's literally better than like most pastries that i encounter in the world

51:15Tanya Bush:yeah yeah doing a cinnamon toast course if you're a home cook doing a dinner party it's actually kind of with like vanilla ice cream. Oh, sexy. Works, works. Big one? You got to answer it. The best dessert?

51:26This Is TASTE Hosts:In the world?

51:27Tanya Bush:In your brain. In my brain. In your brain.

51:31This Is TASTE Hosts:Okay.

51:32Tanya Bush:In the world and in your brain.

51:33This Is TASTE Hosts:In the world and in my brain. A hot fudge sundae. There's nothing like it. I just do think I'm a huge ice cream girl. Obviously, as I mentioned earlier, like grew up with it, have worked in the industry. I'm an ice cream head. And then to smother it in a delicious fudge, bitter, sweet sauce, a little whipped cream, some toasted nuts, perhaps, maybe hazelnuts.

51:58Tanya Bush:Yeah, it's such a it's on the podium for me. I'm reading Colson Whitehead's book, Sag Harbor.

52:04This Is TASTE Hosts:Oh, amazing.

52:05Tanya Bush:And there is I hope to have him on the show. I'm working on it. But like the character works at an ice cream shop. Oh, I haven't. OK, I've got to read it. It's just like it's changes the way I think about summer ice cream jobs.

52:18This Is TASTE Hosts:Mm-hmm.

52:19Tanya Bush:And, I mean, you probably learned a lot. Maybe you're just realizing now working at that job.

52:25This Is TASTE Hosts:Oh, totally. I mean, I worked there for like five years. Yeah. So a very long time.

52:28Tanya Bush:Shout it out. Where was it?

52:29This Is TASTE Hosts:The Ben Spoon.

52:31Tanya Bush:Yeah.

52:31This Is TASTE Hosts:It's amazing. I was just back in New Jersey, and I visited, and I was such a delight. They have like experimental flavors and then also the classics, which I think is an amazing combination. There's like lavender moscarpone and sweet basil and then also like cookies and cream, which, yeah, is perfect to me. But yes, you learn, I mean, you learn a lot working in an ice cream store. Everyone is like, you're hot and sticky and covered in sugar at all times. And I think it was formative in certain ways.

53:00Tanya Bush:So cool. When you're craving fast food, where are you going?

53:02This Is TASTE Hosts:Ooh, Five Guys.

53:04Tanya Bush:Nice.

53:05This Is TASTE Hosts:Good choice. I really like their milkshakes.

53:07Tanya Bush:Yeah.

53:07This Is TASTE Hosts:Quite good.

53:08Tanya Bush:Quite good. A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead.

53:11This Is TASTE Hosts:Hmm. Well, I never got to try Franny's. Yeah. And I, you know, it's this storied institution and everyone has sort of, you know, devoted themselves to it and talked about how good it was. So I'm very sad that I missed out on it.

53:26Tanya Bush:Yeah.

53:27This Is TASTE Hosts:And also it's in my neighborhood. So it could have been like my local spot.

53:31Tanya Bush:Yeah. You know? Right up on Flatbush. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of like tucked in on a busy street. Yeah.

53:37This Is TASTE Hosts:Yeah. I think it's Fausto now. It's Fausto. It's been Fausto for a while.

53:41Tanya Bush:Yeah. Yeah. Iconic place. Changed pizza scene in New York forever.

53:44This Is TASTE Hosts:I do. And I do love a pizza spot. Yeah, I've been, I went to Ileone maybe like a month ago and I thought it was really good. So that was fun to get to try it. I didn't try the lobster pizza, which is their sort of iconic spot.

54:00Tanya Bush:Your favorite city outside America to visit for food. Okay, this feels like an utterly boring answer. But Paris, because they just, well, I think because I've spent the most time in Paris,

54:13This Is TASTE Hosts:like our designer for the magazine lives there. and I've traveled there a few different times. My dad loves Paris, so I met him there before. Cool. But it's just such a vibrant food scene, right? You can get the best pho you've ever had in your life and then also the sacristan pastry that I'd never had before at DuPont and it changes your life. It's just so good.

54:38Tanya Bush:Do you ever want to work overseas again?

54:40This Is TASTE Hosts:I do flirt with the idea of moving to Paris for six months. I would love to have a better experience staging abroad at some point in my life. But no imminent plans right now. First, I got to get the book out.

54:53Tanya Bush:For sure. I didn't even ask you about the next year. Are you going to write another year?

54:59This Is TASTE Hosts:I'm going to write another book. Well, it's a good question. While I was writing the book, I was sort of interested in this idea of a sequel or a couple different iterations of a year and a life from this narrator. I think that's partially just because I do like love a sequel like I you know I read this

55:19Tanya Bush:I love a trilogy too

55:21This Is TASTE Hosts:I love it exactly before sunrise before sunset before midnight but make it baking

55:28Tanya Bush:you just pitched it I just pitched it amazing yeah

55:31This Is TASTE Hosts:but I think it would be interesting to sort of like revisit this character who is me you know in eight years and like what is she baking you know am I still baking in a professional context. Like, you know, what is her life like? And so I do think that like sort of tracking a life through cookbooks could be kind of an interesting form.

55:54Tanya Bush:I'm into it. Have you sold the film rights yet? They're out there. They're out there. They're in some inboxes.

55:59This Is TASTE Hosts:Well, they're actually not in some, we're going out right when the book comes out.

56:03Tanya Bush:Cool, cool, cool.

56:03This Is TASTE Hosts:Yeah, fingers crossed. I can't wait.

56:05Tanya Bush:Yeah, somebody's got to pick it up. It's great. It's great. It definitely lends itself to that kind of world. Last one, your favorite sandwich.

56:12This Is TASTE Hosts:Ooh. PB &J. Love that. You can't mess with classics. That's my answer. Is that your answer?

56:19Tanya Bush:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like the banh mi, but we haven't drafted sandwiches in a long time, but I think I'm now on peanut butter and jelly. Really? Super agree.

56:25This Is TASTE Hosts:What kind of peanut butter are you using?

56:27Tanya Bush:Oh, definitely creamy industrial.

56:28This Is TASTE Hosts:Yeah, me too.

56:29Tanya Bush:Always. Never crunchy. Always industrial.

56:31This Is TASTE Hosts:Never crunchy. Never crunchy. Crunchy is a huge mistake.

56:33Tanya Bush:But what about you?

56:35This Is TASTE Hosts:It's definitely like Jif creamy. Yeah, yeah, completely. And then maybe like an artisanal jam.

56:40Tanya Bush:For sure.

56:40This Is TASTE Hosts:Of course. Down for an artisanal jam. And then I will ideally do it on like a sourdough.

56:45Tanya Bush:Tanya Bush, welcome. This is taste. So great to see you.

56:49This Is TASTE Hosts:So good to see you.

56:50Tanya Bush:The right texture.

56:51This Is TASTE Hosts:It has to be a soft sourdough, though. It has to be soft. Yeah.

56:53Tanya Bush:And you cut the crust off because those crusts can be challenging. Because I think that's a pastry chef move because it's kind of an atypical bread choice for peanut butter and jelly.

57:01This Is TASTE Hosts:Totally, totally. And I don't want a burnished boule. I really want like – I want a like soft like San Francisco style sourdough. Yeah. That is like it's giving me that tang, that plushness, but it is also not like hurting my teeth.

57:15Tanya Bush:It's kind of like the grocery store sourdough. You have to go. Totally. 100%. Like the soft sourdough.

57:19This Is TASTE Hosts:Bread alone, they do a good job.

57:21Tanya Bush:Bread alone does a good job. Yeah. I personally have been dabbling in like just soft wheat.

57:25This Is TASTE Hosts:Really?

57:26Tanya Bush:Industrial. I'm going all in there. Hell yeah. It's like childhood for me. Tanya Bush, what a great conversation. Love the book. Thank you so much for joining This is Taste.

57:35This Is TASTE Hosts:Aw, thank you for having me.

57:40Tanya Bush:This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skrzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.