742: We Went to the World's Biggest Natural Food Show. We Have Notes.

12:00Matt:Cool company out of Copenhagen, you know, they're doing basically bread wasted pasta using. Oh, yeah, I can't eat it. But yeah, you can't eat it. That's right. So I'll do the work.

12:08Dan Frommer:No, it looks it look good.

12:09Matt:It was good. It was I think the flavor profile, like the raw pasta was really strong. Like, you know, it's hard to like figure out if pasta is dry pasta is good or not. But I liked I responded to it. But of course, it's cool branding. It's from Copenhagen. It just feels like a really nice moment for them. A couple more. Boatly was doing innovation. And I'd say they actually were successful with a Gojujan Latte.

12:30Dan Frommer:Really?

12:31Matt:Not something that I'm going to try typically. Huh. It was mostly Gojugaru as the float, but I liked, you know.

12:38Dan Frommer:That's interesting. I saw a savory bar from Little Bucks, which is a buckwheat brand. I always, there's not enough savory bars. There used to be a great savory bar startup in New York. I forgot what they were called. You had to keep them in the fridge, but those are gone. Not Lenka. No, no.

12:55Matt:Yeah. This was like 10 years ago. 10 years ago. Like savory meaning like savory oats?

12:59Dan Frommer:No, like veggie flavored snack bars.

13:04Matt:Interesting.

13:05Dan Frommer:Yeah, like bell peppery type stuff.

13:07Matt:I feel that works. I mean, you have to shift your brain a bit.

13:11Dan Frommer:Yeah, but I don't always want a chocolate snack. I guess I always want a chocolate snack, but I would love a more meal-like bar too.

13:19Matt:Yeah, kind of like a meal replacement bar. Sidebar, the New La Croix flavor, Absolute Trash.

13:25Dan Frommer:Which one? Oh, I didn't get the try. Pineapple and coconut. Oh, man, I was hoping that'd be good. It was not good, man. Oh, no. Sorry, guys. They're really off it. It sucks.

13:33Matt:It's been a long time since there's been a great new flavor. I know, and they're just getting lapped by a number of the other brands. I mean, I saw Rambler everywhere. It's funny, I was with my friend Peter who lives in L.A., and he'd never heard of Rambler. Have you heard of Rambler?

13:48Dan Frommer:Of course, yeah, but mostly from Exo. They do have it at Whole Foods and Lassen's. It does have some distribution. It's very good.

13:54Matt:I was talking to them. A friend of mine had first spotted them in Austin and then on the East Coast, Northeast. They're quite saturated. I had them at my local stop and shop, my very regular grocery store.

14:07Dan Frommer:Once you get in those distributors, it just gets put, you know, they got to move the water.

14:11Matt:Dude, they were downpricing that. It was like$4.99. It was great. This episode is brought to you by Masterclass. You know how on the show, we're always talking to people who've spent decades obsessing over one thing, whether it's modern Korean food, new expressions of the Jewish deli, or the perfect vampiro taco in South LA. That depth of knowledge is the thing I find endlessly fascinating. And honestly, it's a big part of why I'm into masterclass. There are classes taught by some of the best chefs, writers, and thinkers in the world. People who've put in the work. And the lessons are short enough that I can actually fit them in.

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15:26Matt:And your kid's pool day to feel like... And your hotel bed to feel like... Ooh, and room service to feel like... Because at Hilton, hospitality feels like...

15:41Dan Frommer:Your cabana's ready. Would you like fresh towels?

15:43Matt:It matters where you stay. Book now at Hilton.com. Hilton, for this day. A couple more Wholesome Bakery, a San Francisco chocolate chip cookie company. Oh, cool. They're doing a buttercream monk fruit proprietary cream that delicious, less sweet than I think is needed and really a beautiful product. Cool. Lasso. Lasso launched yesterday, brand new company. They're doing grass-fed gelatin cups. So kind of in the oddball, were you familiar with oddball? They were launching as these, they're kind of trying to replace Jell-O essentially. We had interviewed the founder of oddball on the podcast a few years ago and a young creator type guy, very, very, was wearing cowboy boots and a hat and kind of talking some shit.

16:36Matt:Very young. I was like, my guy, go for it. I liked it. It's not the category for me.

16:41Dan Frommer:There's some really great food entrepreneurs that you meet that are just like wild types. I love it. That's cool. I didn't get to try that.

16:48Matt:Yeah, I'm just riffing. I have two more. One that a name that we all know is Zahav, terrific restaurant group based in Philly. They have Laser Wolf, which is in a couple markets. They are nationwide Whole Foods now. And they were doing their standard SKU, like great, very smooth hummus. Definitely for groceries or hummus. Really, I like Little Sesame a lot too. And they're up there. Awesome. really great. Soom tahini is in there, but they were launching a shug flavor and a matbuka flavor. So like roasted red peppers and green pepper sauce. And the last one is my friend Lex from Lexington Bakes.

17:24Matt:He launched two years ago, was doing these five ounce brownies, super decadent. They were like - Yeah, really nice. Really nice stuff. $10, really high price point. Didn't, you know, really great buzz in the industry, but that price point wasn't working. He has shifted to the best thing, very more functional, very macro centric bars for everyday snacking. And he's kind of doing the midday squares model where this is what you should have at two. This is maybe we should have daily in the morning and night. And he has a kind of this idea about where the bar should be placed in your diet. And Lex is a terrific baker.

18:00Matt:And I'll try that too. Yeah. So that's my those are some of my highlights from Expo West. I really enjoy walking the floor.

18:05Dan Frommer:And to the listener, they're like, the reason that we didn't overlap almost at all is because there's just so much it's absolutely wild and you walk by these booths you know and you're not you need a break yeah you miss the

18:16Matt:thing yeah you miss it and i like i i think there's so much promise in the room and so much optimism but as you report on a new consumer this this is an industry of failure i mean it's i mean it's it's truly so difficult to break out as a product i mean in your work when you are looking at these baby brands, what do you look at first to kind of measure their success? Because I know you bring out your crystal ball a lot.

18:42Dan Frommer:I mean, in food especially, it just has to taste good. And if it doesn't taste good, you're kind of getting nowhere. That's not the only thing that matters. And there are successful food companies that don't taste that great. But that is the number one thing I would say for food. Supply chain is huge. There are a lot of things about food that are kind of not that interesting or not that fun, I guess you would say, but ultimately make a business either successful or not. So supply chain is like, is it novel? Is it unique? Is it proprietary? Is it under your control or not? And a lot of small brands have almost no control over their supply chain.

19:19Dan Frommer:So they're really struggling for a bit and then scaling that becomes hard. to even zoom out one more step. It's like, how much torture can you handle as a founder to juggle every single element of your business and reinvent yourself all the time? And that's true for every industry, but for food especially, you're constantly having to deal with new distributors, new retailers. The buyer changes every six months. The buyers all hate each other. They're competing for shelf space, all this stuff. They don't want to merchandise two things that sell well next to each other because they belong in different aisles all these crazy things about about food um so it's really like founder grit inspiration some of that is the story you know there's a lot like botchons recently transacted and that was a really great story founder story happened to also be a delicious product that was able to be priced at a premium level and sell

20:12Matt:well they went from 80 million revenue exited for 400 nice multiple also they figure out a product that could be used as a sauce and a marinade. So it's like figuring out as a founder, multiple uses.

20:26Dan Frommer:And they made it cool to pour a bunch of sugar on your chicken.

20:30Matt:I'm not a fan of it personally. I mean, good for them. No, no, I love it.

20:33Dan Frommer:My kid will eat anything I put it on.

20:35Matt:Yeah, no, it speaks to me as a non-parent. I just like other sauces. The viscosity is a little different for me, but good for them.

20:43Dan Frommer:Totally, exactly. So you're looking for a lot of things like that. And then it's just like, can they keep it going? and you just, you know, I met Becca from Fish Wife when she was just getting started. And the amount of business they're going to do this year is, you wouldn't even believe it. Like it's been, and that has just been figuring out new sourcing, new places of getting different types of seafood, new distributors, new merchants, how to make this thing cool, who to collaborate with, all these things. And it's just all, it's so many different elements of being a creative person too, and also someone who has their stuff together.

21:18Matt:A lot of the topics when I was chatting with founders throughout the week was consumer versus food service. And a lot of times they don't know what they want. And I feel like the founders that really understand what their market is and where they're going to grow right away that leads to success. And so having a product with a real food service adaptation is, it seems to me, like the safer money than trying to go and fight it out on Instagram.

21:46Dan Frommer:That said, completely different sales cycle, completely different business, different packaging, different distribution. And so for a consumer brand that is a startup, you really have to pick one. And investors, for example, are not gonna be interested in a food service brand any way that they would be interested in an omni-channel direct-to-consumer brand that can also work at 10 ,000 retail doors, et cetera, et cetera. So you want to eventually be able to do both.

22:13Matt:Yeah.

22:13Dan Frommer:But it's, yeah, it's another tricky decision to make.

22:16Matt:It's a tricky decision. Yuzu Co., talk to those guys. Oh, yeah, cool. They're really doing great things and just like thinking about innovation with different skews, but also just like getting like sourcing for them. You know, they're growing and Yuzu is a product that grows not year round in parts of the world that we, you know, with lots of shipping costs and tariffs perhaps. So I just like talking to them and like how a brand with like, you know, in year two and three is like scaling up.

22:43Dan Frommer:Well, and talk about a brand that's really tried like already, I don't know, 15 different things to see what's going to stick from, you know, just juice to canned, ready to drink juice to use a kosho sauce to now being a flavor vendor to Starbucks. So. Yeah.

23:03Matt:Yeah. Mineral water. I try all kinds of stuff. yeah i think that they're like they have a core and then they have like their other stuff and i'm i'm following that that journey closely because i think it's very cool um any last words on expo

23:14Dan Frommer:west uh i love it yeah it's so fun i love it too it's really fun you know obviously as all trade shows it's about the people and the connections you make but it is really fun to just try out every you know every brand in the grocery store has a booth and you could try it all in one day

23:30Matt:it is a really fun time in that way and i i think next year i'm going to do two days and if you hear

23:34Dan Frommer:the hoarseness in my voice that is also because of Expo West.

23:38Matt:Well, let's switch topics. Last weekend, you published a great newsletter with the subject, Has Sweetgreen Hit Bottom? You know, you can read it in a couple of ways, I think. I mean, just with the subject line. But first, like tell me a little bit about the last past quarter, which, you know, we talked about Sweetgreen when you were on in the fall. They were struggling then. But as you report, things have gotten certainly worse.

24:03Dan Frommer:Yeah. I mean, it's, and I was just talking with a friend earlier today about this and how, you know, at one point they made a decision to be more than just really good, healthy lunch for hot people in New York. Like that was, that worked for a long time. And then they, right. Yeah.

24:20Matt:You remember lining up on like, you know, in Nomad.

24:23Dan Frommer:Oh yeah.

24:23Matt:People lining up. Yeah.

24:24Dan Frommer:You get your people watching done in the 30 minutes that you're waiting for your Cale Caesar. but they chose to try to become a giant company that has a thousand stores. And so that requires a, just a different level of operations. And I think, you know, as I write in the piece, it's a company that's never had brand product and operations in sync and in symphony all at once. Like the product was incredible at the beginning. You could get a dressing at Sweetgreen that you just could never get in a fast food setting ever period it was acidic and tasted like something completely different than what you would get at a new york deli or at chopped or wherever um and that's why i went there four days a week for like four years and it was incredible uh and the people watching helped too but as you scale as they now have whatever 200 some restaurants like you're building a team and obviously covid sucked for every restaurant it really sucked for sweet green because the whole creative class that were their core customers in New York and in LA, like their lives got turned upside down.

25:28Dan Frommer:People stopped going to work in the office every day. And that just was a huge momentum buzz killer for them. That said, like, you got to figure it out. And they didn't really change enough. Like they launched the fries, which ended up being a nightmare. The key point of all this is, unfortunately, for all the things that we love to think about in terms of food brands is like product and brand. For a restaurant chain that's going to scale, as I've learned, number one through five things that matter are operations. Can you get however many tens of thousands of employees you have to make the same thing over and over again, all day, the exact same way without screwing it up?

26:08Dan Frommer:And the answer for Sweetgreen was that they couldn't. They really struggled with operations. Their COO spot, if you look through the years of press releases is like the Spinal Tap drummer spot. There's a guy now who joined last year who used to run like 40 Pizza Huts and he seems to have it. Like he's, if you listen to the earnings call, they have like four different transformation projects with all these names, code names. And each one of those is just like a document that's like, these are the 20 work streams that we have to perfect every single day or else we are screwed. And that's what they're working on right now.

26:45Dan Frommer:And a year ago, Jonathan Neiman, the CEO, was like, two-thirds of our restaurants are operating below our standard. That's just not okay. If you've been in business for 18 years, you cannot succeed with two-thirds of your locations operating below standard.

27:01Matt:Why does he say that on an earnings call?

27:02Dan Frommer:I mean, probably because that's when they thought that operationally they were at the bottom. They were like, we're actually at our bottom, but you say - Now he says two thirds are operating at a great level, which means that hopefully they're, and they also claim that their standards are getting higher and higher. So, and, and so I ordered a salad during when I was listening to the call and it came in and it was much better than the previous few. That's great. I love that story. And, you know, they, and they talked about this. They, they completely changed the way they marinate the miso salmon and how they cook it and how they present it.

27:34Dan Frommer:Yeah, you wrote about that. And so, and that, and, and velocities have increased 20%. So hopefully that when I say hit bottom, I don't mean like, is it at its worst now, but hopefully it's on the upswing. I think those are well-meaning people. Nick Chamey, a great founder in the food industry, very supportive of other entrepreneurs. Definitely. They're all nice guys, and I would like to see the company succeed. But operationally, they just didn't have it. It wasn't as good as it should be. And hopefully the operations are now on the increase. And then I don't own shares in Sweetgreen or any company, but for Wall Street, they would like this to be the bottom of the stock too because it's down 90 some percent since it went public.

28:18Matt:And that's the reading I had is like the bottom only means that there's one way to go up. And same store sales declined 11.5 % year over year. And the traffic and mix, the number of people eating at Sweetgreen and how much they ordered declined 13%. So like really grim numbers. But to be fair, are these in line or similar trajectories for other players in this field?

28:41Dan Frommer:There has been an overall decline in same store sales for pretty much every fast casual. Like Cava was crushing a year ago and they're also, you know, basically flatter up. And their stock is dipped. Small single digits. Yeah. Chipotle is kind of having some problems again. Last few Chipotle trips were grim. I loved, I've been at Chipotle. maybe I've talked about this but yeah November 2001 I had Chipotle 27 times including twice in one day which I don't recommend um I I was an absolute Chipotle uh I know yes I looked a lot different than I did you know what I was doing Google image looking for illustration yeah you

29:20Matt:were you did look different then um yeah yeah yeah um good you gotta you gotta sort it out man I'm

29:26Dan Frommer:on a protein journey now, man. No, you're good, man. No, so yes, but down 13 % traffic and mix, you just don't want that ever. Like that's not, you know, you could do the math and be like, okay, well, they're basically back to where they were two years ago. But if you're a public company that's showing momentum and trying to get investors to fuel your next 700 stores, you can't be declining, you have to be growing.

29:47Matt:So - I think a really big point and great point you made in the in the letter last week was that, you know, this, uh, this kill Caesar salad, you know, it's, it was a$9 salad. It made sense. We love that$9 salad. Fast forward to 2026, it's a 14 or$15 salad and just the same salad. So there's really no innovation. It just like a straight up price increase.

30:10Dan Frommer:And the ingredient quality arguably is worse. Maybe technically it's not, but the several salads I've ordered in the last year, like have not been at a level of quality that I remember that$9 salad being. Now, the counter to that is your$9 in salary are also probably $14 now. Earnings adjust with inflation as well, and wages have actually basically kept up with inflation. But in your mind, you're seeing a$14 kale Caesar at Sweetgreen. And then you go to some place like Honey High here in LA, where I go and have a salad. And sometimes that salad is $18 to$24,$26, depending on what protein you add on.

30:50Dan Frommer:But it feels like it's worth the price because the greens are actually interesting and they taste like salad greens and they taste like, and the protein is perfectly cooked and warm and has not been sitting there for a long time. And so I'd rather have one of those than two crappy delivery salads that are, you know, there's a weird liquid at the bottom that I don't know what it came from.

31:12Matt:Well, delivering the salad is always going to be a challenge. I mean, I think it's hard to square this for me sometimes because we clearly are in an era of inflation and price increase. And like, you know, quibbling about the increase of price at Sweetgreen is no different than quibbling about this price of increase at like Via Corotta and Dunsmore and all these places. But those places continue to grow and have massive fan bases while Sweetgreen, are they particularly exposed?

31:41Dan Frommer:i mean first of all i don't know if any of these companies are making money at any of these price

31:45Matt:points i mean i think via corotas probably making yeah i mean uh i i did name like very popular

31:51Dan Frommer:right yes um look i think sweetgreen is in a in a position where they are you know as as their founder says they're trying to democratize real food and also improve on fast food so it's tricky because that is a strategy that requires a different type of product and execution than trying to sell me a$72 steak or whatever,$36 salad at Via Corota. So you just have to do things differently. I think part of it is reinventing themselves. You know, I did a piece a few months ago about how consumers just want new stuff all the time. And Sweetgreen is trying that now. Like they're doing wraps. They realize that they're a product company, I think.

32:33Dan Frommer:I hope they realize that because they are. and if you're going to be a successful product company, A, your product has to be as good as you can make it and B, you got to come out with new products all the time these days.

32:42Matt:The wrap journey is interesting. Just Salad seemed to really have a little bit of a pop about a year ago with their wraps and I've always wanted a wrap at Sweetgreen. To me, the wrap feels like if I'm going to be ordering quick and really I am ordering Sweetgreen because I just don't have time, I want a wrap.

32:59Dan Frommer:I can't eat the wrap, but there's a gluten-free chicken Caesar wrap at Goop Kitchen.

33:05Matt:Oh, cool. I've heard. I've never been to Goop. I would love to talk to those guys. Some stuff there is great.

33:09Dan Frommer:That was one of my favorites. But actually, the chicken Caesar wrap phenomenon in LA right now is hilarious because the mini kebab guys sell like hundreds of them a day. And it was like a luxury good. You could not get a mini kebab chicken Caesar wrap for a long time. And Squirrel has one too now with I believe croissant croutons or something like that. Yeah, it's kind of fun. I can't eat almost any of them, but they seem to be very popular, and it's just kind of a funny thing.

33:39Matt:Well, I'm personally pulling for Sweetgreen. Me too, yeah. Because I've been following the journey for a long time, nice people running the company.

33:46Dan Frommer:Also, there should be great simple food that's easily accessible. That is very true. It's still very hard to get a simple, healthy meal at a reasonable price.

33:55Matt:It's just very hard. Well, I wanted to talk to you about another company, Rose 7's, entering to CPG. I went to an event last week that launched these products. I've tasted them. You've tasted them as well.

34:08Dan Frommer:Yeah, I've tasted a few different versions, although they didn't really change too much. But yeah, last year, they kind of did a very small pilot of this. They piloted it.

34:15Matt:Well, to remind everyone, to remind everyone, Rose 7 is a company founded by Dan Barber and others, really a produce company to start. A seed company to start. They didn't even make produce. Let's rewind it. Yeah, it was a seed company. Then it became a produce company. and a lot of people like Whole Foods really leaned in and and showcase them well and I know people who still the Badger Flame you know beets and all that you know people love people love their products to cook with and now they're kind of like saying well we don't even need to cook we have these tins and they're very they're very similar to the Spanish you know conservas like the tinned fish shape and form and I thought it was interesting that at the launch event they said they're going to be merchandising and selling it in the fresh section yeah exactly which i think is uh great for them i have some questions though but like how would you do let's talk about the

35:08Dan Frommer:product what do you think well first of all i think it's important because i think not enough people know what row seven is and it's not just a regular vegetable company they are actually breeding and and there's this this cottage and i wrote a big piece about them for the new consumer which I think most of it's above the paywall. So check it out. Yeah. There's this cottage industry of vegetable breeders that's so fascinating and they're not breeding for most vegetables you buy at the grocery store tastes like nothing because they are bred for shelf life, disease resistance, frost resistance, everything but flavor.

35:44Dan Frommer:And row seven is actually bred only for flavor basically. Like they are trying to make the most delicious vegetables that actually taste good. Now, they get there by coming at them sometimes from a quirky point of view. So they have something called sweet garlic, which is a hybrid of garlic and leek, which is like delicious. I throw them on the grill and they're so good. So that's one of the tinned varieties and it's sort of, I don't know how they actually cook it.

36:12Matt:Yeah, I asked around, I mean, didn't probe too deeply, but they weren't sharing that information about where and how. I just, I didn't probe deeply, But I did like the leeks. I thought that was a nice addition.

36:24Dan Frommer:Super interesting. In sort of like a mustard vinaigrette.

36:26Matt:Yeah, exactly. There's a sauce in there.

36:27Dan Frommer:And you open it up and it's like, you know, instead of having the sardines neatly arranged, it's like these leeks and there's like the white part and the green part.

36:34Matt:It's very interesting. That's really cool. It's aesthetically pleasing. My biggest question is just the size of these tinned vegetables. It's not a lot, particularly with the cherry tomatoes, which I thought was the strongest of the three I tasted. I didn't really connect with the beets. I didn't like the knife cuts particularly. it just didn't make sense to me um so i'm like thinking beets cubed they were diced yeah okay

36:55Dan Frommer:yeah yeah i had that one last year the tomato i haven't opened yet should i have it today i think

36:59Matt:the tomatoes the strongest it's delicious when i get home no have one to get home and i just last

37:02Dan Frommer:year they did a uh a winter squash with like a rosemary oil and that was see i would like that

37:08Matt:i don't know like so i'm thinking dan like you get this small amount of you're not really going to cook with these and there's really not enough for an of like an appetizer plate it's it's to me it's like truly for snacking.

37:21Dan Frommer:I think it's maybe one component of like a aperitivo spread, you know? Yeah. You're going to have some pieces of cheese out. You might have some tinned fish. You might have one of these things. I, when I need a snack, you can't buy them here yet, but they were nice enough to send me some samples. I'll throw some on top of cottage cheese on like a crisp bread or something like that, a wasa cracker. Yeah, yeah. And it's a delight because it's vegetables. It is ostensibly healthy there's quite a bit of sodium in some of them yeah um but it's nice i think the same thing with tin sardines like you i guess you could get a meal out of them and that's where it's like it's not nearly as filling as i think you can get a meal out of a tin sardines especially

38:04Matt:macros are really positive and great great for you i think with this i agree like it's definitely for a cracker or it's definitely not for cooking love to see in a larger format i wonder if that's I think they're trying to figure it out.

38:19Dan Frommer:Branded produce is still a very small part of that market. There's not a lot of successful branded produce examples other than now the Sumo. Sumo Mandarin. You were going to say it because I was like,

38:30Matt:Sumo Mandarin. I stopped by the Sumo Mandarin table. I was like, my God. They literally had these plates filled with one slice or one. I was like, dude, I'm going to have actually half of a Sumo Mandarin. If you look at our logo, this is Tate's logo is a Sumo Mandarin. Oh, nice. Not by coincidence. I asked him about the season. And fascinating. This is a great season. Because I had a writer pitch a story about how it was a bad season. And I was like, my season's been good. But I was curious. Good idea. All California grown. I didn't know that. I didn't know that either.

39:05Dan Frommer:But they're crushing. And if you saw the stat in my article, but orange sales actually increased 13 % last year in America, in large part due to Sumo and Cuties doing actual marketing for oranges, which kind of never really happened before. And super interesting. I mean, I don't know if that was kind of a blip or if that's going to keep going. I love that.

39:25Matt:Yeah, it's pretty cool. Well, let's talk about your Consumer Insights report, which you just released. I'm going to link to the report in the show notes. I believe it's behind the paywall.

39:36Dan Frommer:No, no, this is free. All the research reports I do with Coefficient Capital are free. newconsumer.com slash trends is the series. This is our Expo West food and beverage report that we just launched.

39:47Matt:Yeah, so high level, Dan. I mean, protein was obviously all over this report, but you thought of it in a unique way. I think you weren't just saying, is protein a thing? You looked at it a little deeper.

39:57Dan Frommer:Protein is absolutely a thing. The question is how much of a thing and where is it gonna be a thing? And so this is where, you know, part of our work is we do a survey of 3 ,000 US consumers. We ask them a lot of things about protein. about a third, I think, or maybe a quarter of Americans think they're not getting enough protein. And about two thirds are actively trying to, especially younger people, trying to get more protein in their diet. And you see in the food industry and the CPG industry, protein is now an ingredient that's being added to all kinds of things. I got a pitch the other day for a RTD canned vodka cocktail with protein added to it.

40:31Dan Frommer:There's protein energy drinks.

40:33Matt:I respect the hustle. That sounds the worst.

40:35Dan Frommer:There's protein beer, there's protein water, there's protein coffee, there's protein gummies, there's protein everything. And so we actually, we're very curious, like where do people want to get this protein? So we asked these 3 ,000 people across 18 different food and beverage items, how natural or unnatural does it feel to you for there to be protein added to this product? And then if you're imagining a high protein version of this product, how interested or disinterested are you in sampling it and trying it? And so we scored them and you can go see the report. There's a matrix of them and there's kind of four quadrants.

41:08Dan Frommer:There's the obvious winners, things where protein makes a lot of sense and people are really interested in it. And those are pretty obvious things like breakfast cereal, snack bars, milk and pasta. Pasta is one where it's like, okay, I love pasta. It's a huge carb hit. If protein can be added to it, that'd be awesome. Then there's the stuff that people think is weird and gross And that is beer and cocktails are the ones that scored very poorly. Condiments, ketchup. Ketchup and stuff like that. Then there's this kind of group in the middle where people just aren't sure. Chips, ice cream, water, pretzels, things that are either completely innocuous or considered to be unhealthy or carb heavy.

41:47Dan Frommer:And protein can either be added as a powder or as part of the creation of the product. I've been buying ultra filtered milk at Sprouts because they keep running out of clover, which I prefer. And you know what? Tastes great. And I'm getting an extra, I'm doubling my protein in my coffee. Is that what it is? I didn't know the product. I'm familiar. I forgot the brand name. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's one organic one. It's also A2. And it's not Fair Life. Fair Life, I think, is owned by Coke or something like that. But it's a fancy ultra-filtered milk. And it makes sense. I realize it costs a lot more, so I'm not sure it's actually worth it to get those extra six grams of protein or something like that.

42:29Dan Frommer:But it makes sense there. But two interesting things. One is that if you look at younger consumers versus older, across all of these categories, younger people think it's more natural to add protein to more products and are more interested in trying these products than older people. And we also looked at GLP-1 users, which again is a large and growing portion of the population. And they too, over all these products thought that adding protein is more natural less unnatural and more interested in trying different stuff so there's a lot of people out there who roll their eyes like oh why is there protein in this and yes the the ones that don't make any sense yeah we'll go away there's not i don't think going to be a huge market for protein water i'm sorry yeah um but but but like protein is not gonna happen yeah but like protein serious protein is absolutely happening and it's not going away and and especially with rfk and these new um guidelines like we asked people to type in the number of grams of protein that they thought they were supposed to be getting on a daily basis oh i love that perception two people two thirds of people wrote in a number below 50 or 50 or below whereas based on your weight the average in the u.s is now somewhere between like 90 and 150 grams that you're supposed to be getting that's a lot it's actually very hard to get 150 grams of protein a day i'm trying to it's a lot of chicken breast I mean, a lot of everything.

43:48Dan Frommer:So that is unrealistic for a lot of people. Or it's like one of those Chipotle protein balls.

43:54Matt:Oh, yeah. Those guys. I mean, that's working probably for Chipotle.

43:57Dan Frommer:But, you know, I think if they can figure out how to add it to products in a way that does not degrade the product quality, it might make sense for a bunch of things.

44:08Matt:This episode is brought to you by Indeed. Stop waiting around for the perfect candidate. Instead, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs to find the right people with the right skills fast. It's a simple way to make sure your listing is the first candidate C. According to Indeed data, Sponsored Jobs have four times more applicants than non-sponsored jobs. So go build your dream team today with Indeed. Get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Soda survey. Let's close with that. That's another one. What did you learn about the modern soda drinker in America? Okay.

44:44Dan Frommer:Younger people are definitely more interested in functional drinks than older, and they're looking for obviously hydration and energy, but also things like relaxation. I think that category is super interesting. The investors I work with just invested in a company called Trip. Recess just raised a bunch of money. There's a bunch of these brands that are using mostly magnesium and other adaptogens as kind of a relaxation play. Actually, it's funny at Expo, So Breeze, which has been a very successful cannabis soda company, might have to stop doing that. So they're rushing out these non-cannabis, not even mood-altering, just different drinks.

45:24Dan Frommer:And they were pretty good. They tasted good. Yeah, I mean, I think there's something to that.

45:27Matt:The quality of the... They're tasting better, a lot of these adaptogen drinks. Totally. It's just tasting better.

45:32Dan Frommer:But the other thing we did is we asked 3 ,000 people to write in their three favorite beverages. And this gets me out of my bubble very quickly. This is not a list of different airwands. This isn't like Silver Lake hanging out in a bar. No, this is younger people wrote in like Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, Sprite, and older people wrote in coffee, water, and Coke, and Diet Coke, basically. Yeah. That is America.

45:55Matt:And Coke was 2X Pepsi in terms of the index.

45:59Dan Frommer:Yeah, and what I don't know is are those also including people who are using the word Coke as slang for soda, which is a thing. Oh, interesting. In the South, we can't really do it. We're tracking words, so we don't know their intent. But yes.

46:13Matt:And it seemed like the probiotic sodas for these 3 ,000 everyday Americans barely indexed. Not really showing up, yeah.

46:21Dan Frommer:So the Olipops of the world did not. Poppy, yeah. Some people wrote in, but very few. And honestly, when we asked people what functional ingredients they were interested in, prebiotics and probiotics were very low on the list. I think that was a huge kind of false flag for those brands. I think the main thing that most people want is lower sugar. And that was another interesting thing from our survey is that younger people are much more accepting of alternative sweeteners. They're less interested in unsweetened, but they're more interested in all these new sweeteners and different low sugar, quote unquote, sweetened platforms.

46:59Matt:You know, I did not see as many probiotics walking the floor this year. Nope. No, it seems like that's maybe one that's – not to say there aren't great products, but I think there are and it's important gut health will always be important.

47:10Dan Frommer:I don't know what I'm talking about, but my guess is that it's actually very hard to, on a shelf-stable product, actually have a meaningful impact. And I don't know. Some of those things I just don't get along with so well. So I think, I don't know if that's a huge, huge win. Other than, you know, I learned about Sour Milk through you. And I'm obsessed with it. That's so good. I'm glad you like those guys.

47:33Matt:Like, I am all, Sour Milk, man. Keep doing your thing.

47:37Dan Frommer:That's a company where, like, I cannot wait to see in two years where they are. If you, I didn't, you know, we talked about them last time or that you talked about me with them. Talk about two founders who are hustling and posting on social and hand delivering yogurt to - And you had the yogurt. 40, it's very good. I was the first paying customer at Happier Grocer the morning they launched. That's so cool.

48:01Matt:That's cool. Yeah, I respect their hustle and I think it's a huge category, obviously, and aligns perfectly well with this protein era. Yeah, totally. It's delicious too. And I'm just looking for the next sour milk, you know. I know, me too. Let us know. I mentioned earlier our similar hustle and grit. Dan Fromer, man, I love catching up with you. I wish you could do this more regularly. And you're moving to Paris for five months. Yeah, it's going to be great. Will you phone in from Paris? I will, yeah. We can figure out a time.

48:27Dan Frommer:I'm going to start sending you photos of cool European food brands.

48:29Matt:I mean, talk about yogurt, the yogurt aisle in Paris. Like, that's a next level thing.

48:34Dan Frommer:Maybe we'll go to Bordier and do an on-location butter tasting. The 4DA would be so, listen, you're always invited back.

48:41Matt:Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste.

48:42Dan Frommer:My pleasure. Thank you.

48:48Matt:This Is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. Local design by Ellie Skirzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.