746: Eating at Home with Golde’s Trinity Mouzon Wofford

29:03And so, like, I just, to me, like, the big box store as, like, our go-to starts to become this, like, I think it's, like, a really quick path into, like, not a lot of human interaction. production and that scares me. In the book you write about how a lot of people want a village in which to raise their children and going to the farmer's market can be one of the ways that you're cultivating this village. The village is out there you know like it's not it's just a matter of looking people in the eye and showing up each week and it could be farmer's market it could be your local coffee shop. But I think we have to be willing to inconvenience ourselves to go after those things or else they're not there.

29:56They're not in our lives. And, you know, everything becomes frictionless, but sort of meaningless. I think the Brooklyn version of this is I saw like a meme or a video that was like somebody crying about how like everyone wants a village and nobody wants to go to everybody's birthday party. But do you know? That's what you do. This is nothing to do. I've had to tell my friends, my fellow friends with kids that I don't go to kids' birthday parties. Well, the kids aren't your friends. It's the adults. I don't mind the kids, but I won't go to their birthday parties. It gets out of hand. I mean, you have to draw.

30:37Well, if you have the adult friends and the kid friends and the farmer's market friends, at a certain point, the village can only be so big. Right. We have to shut this thing up. But as someone without kids who lives in New York, yeah, I have to go to three birthday parties on a Friday night because that's what it means to show up for people that you want in your life. And that's what we have to do. I guess to get into the formal bookmaking side of things a little bit more, because we've talked a lot about the ethos and the ideas behind it. How did you sit down and decide, like, these are the sections of the book?

31:06These are the recipes that we really want to have in it. So, I mean, the recipes were easy would be the wrong word, but they were they were intuitive because they were mostly I basically just made a list of everything that we cook at home. And then we worked on sort of figuring out where they would live. I can't remember I think we went through a few different possible ways to organize the book before landing on just sort of through the day I wanted it to feel easy enough to get to the recipe that made sense for the moment you were in while still having enough of a sense of sort of I don't know, beauty to it that it was fun to just look through even if you weren't planning to cook something in that instant Yeah, I like because it goes through time of the day and then there's a separate weekend section after that, which is very much how I think about kind of more bigger project recipes.

32:06And that weekend section is kind of sweet and savory, just more time spent. Exactly. Exactly. Another thing I really like about the book are you have these beautiful kind of woodblock prints throughout it with inspirational, motivational type quotes, like your own version of those. Where did those come from? so the prince isei made um he's a i call him the crafty motherfucker and um so he like he can just you know if you he made your garden yeah yeah he does a lot of it and so i'm always kind of just you know all of gold's packaging whatever you know i'm just like hey i have this project i want you to do this um and so um he yeah he went into like full-on illustrator mode for a few months and And every day would be sort of like, I need an ear of corn.

32:59I need a stock pot, whatever. We would just kind of like keep amassing, you know, all of these. He was doing them as lino cuts, so like carving out on the linoleum. And the quotes were all, I mean, those are all quotes from other books that I just adore. And quotes that speak to, I think, really like the spirit of cooking and why I find it to be really impactful beyond just like the recipe which begets the food that you eat. Right. Like where is the practice? Where is the purpose? um so i mean i think we have i had a quote in there from edna lewis about um you know that moment of like coming downstairs for breakfast and that being the most wonderful part of the day having that gratitude for it um there's a really funny michael poland quote in there from like one of his first books about gardening and um he's talking about growing carrots um and like how he tries to grow carrots the first time and it totally just doesn't work.

34:08And he's saying, I think, you know, outright success is dumb and disasters frequently elegant, something like that. I've come back to that quote again and again. They remind me of, you know, Bread and Puppets. Yeah. This is a great, for anyone listening who hasn't heard, long running independent theater group that was based in New York but is now based in Vermont. And they make these beautiful woodblock prints that have very soul-stirring quotes about growing bread or beauty in the everyday. And I think it kind of lends that timeless slash 70s health resurgence quality that the book has. On that note, may I plug that you can watch all of the old Vermont public media episodes from PBS or whatever.

35:07And there's this great, great show on there called, it's basically their variety show that they had in the 70s, and they had a whole feature on Bread and Puppet Press from all the way back then. Fascinating. Is this what your daughters watch on TV at home? This is what I watch late at night for television. 70s Vermont public access. It's exactly what, like, I am exactly who you think I am. I mean, that's a great, that's a great plug. I feel like we need a spinoff podcast where you just recommend. Weird shit. Yeah, or like TV, like cultural ephemera from a lower impact era, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

35:48Yeah, I mean, it is true. I feel like I can kind of watch it without leaving reality, which is good. It's like probably the ideal situation. I want to pose a quote back to you, which is a question that you have in the introduction of the book. You say, what makes from scratch cooking worth the time and attention that it asks of us? I'm curious how you answer that and if that answer shifted at all while you were kind of working on this project. This idea just came up again because I was emailing with Troy, who is the owner of the new cookbook shop called Wild Sorrel that's about to open. here. And we were talking about eating at home.

36:32And, you know, I hope he doesn't mind me saying in his email, he wrote to me, he said, you know, this feels so relevant to my experience, because I also have had this urge at times to skip a meal or not really take the time to enjoy it, because I'm so busy opening up this shop. And I had the same thing with writing the book, where all of a sudden you have this thing of like, I'm just so busy, I have the deadline, I need to get to this meeting, blah, blah, blah. It's, the funny thing is that I think that we really worship efficiency in our culture, right? And, you know, I mean, we've sort of moved past this like religious moral structure and I think now our moral structure is tied to like economy.

37:23Capitalism. And so that means that for us, getting through as many things as we can in a day as quickly as we can means that we're doing the right thing and it's good. And the thing that I've had to really sort of push, even myself having written this book on, is rushing is – it's almost like procrastinating. Like it's not any better. It's the thing that we can build discipline around so that we don't do it so much. And so for me, like, I think what's so important and great and true about a practice is that it's something that you can come back to again and again and again. It's not something that you learn and you check the box and you say you're done.

38:12So for me, from scratch, cooking, taking the time to go to the farmer's market instead of going to Price Chopper and, you know, cooking it, like cooking with my kids, which is not as efficient as like, you know, throwing them in a room and like microwaving something and getting it done. All of that is this constant practice that I'm coming back to that says you can just be here. There's all this going on. You have lots to do. You have lots to worry about. What did that person say? Whatever. But just for the second. Right. And that to me is what feels so important about cooking is it's our most accessible opportunity that we all have every single day.

39:03We're all going to eat something today, hopefully. And if we are, we can use that moment wherever we are to really be there. I guess I'll contribute two quotes this reminds me of while we just go full like affirmation, Jimmy. Which I think you probably know and love both of these. And the first is be here now, Ram Dass. Second, Mary Oliver. Tell me what it is you plan to do with your one wild and precious life. which I think of all the time whenever I'm doing something that I don't want to be doing I'm just like what would Mary Oliver think of me and you know obviously like that's being a human and being an adult especially is doing things that you don't really want to do but if there is a way of doing something that ultimately would be more enjoyable to me that I can find a way to do that then I think that I'm making her a little bit more proud that's that's really excellent I I'm also thinking about this book that I started listening to the audiobook of while I washed dishes.

40:04And it's called After the Ecstasy, the Laundry. And it's by this, I think, American monk. And he's talking about how even people who are extremely advanced spiritual practitioners who have had a moment of what they consider to be enlightenment, like the full-blown witnessing perfection, they still come back to their lives and they fuck up and they're rude and they're impatient and they have to deal with the monotony of existence. It doesn't go away. It's not like, okay, great, now I can sort of rise above it all. I'm disappointed to learn that that's the case. I was hoping that at some point we could all just move to the woods.

40:50But yeah, the laundry, the cooking, it's there. I love the idea of listening to that while you're doing the dishes. Also, it feels very much kind of in that pursuit. Have you been on the Doing Dishes audiobook vibe for a while? No, it just started. And I am, yes, I like it, but I also am kind of clocking it because I'm saying to myself, well, can you also just wash the dishes? And are you still trying to find a way to distract yourself? But we're just humans. Exactly. So then I listen to my audio book and I enjoy it. I think that would be the very, you know, monastic approach would be to do the dishes and just be finding the joy in doing the dishes.

41:36Yeah, I can't do that. But as somebody who listens to, like, 90s R &B while I do the dishes, like, I think there's pleasure to be found in that as well. Favorite 90s R &B track. Oh, I mean, I listen to, like, The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill as a complete album. And I think that's an okay answer because I think it's all in one together. Yeah. How about you? Oh, I don't know. Honestly, I can't think of anything besides the Beatles right now because my kid's on a Beatles kick, like a big, deep Beatles kick. It's been over a year. Wow. I don't think I've heard anything besides the Beatles, but I could name you every Beatles song.

42:13Is there like a most listened to Beatles song in the house? Well, it started with the album Help because she watched the movie, which I'd never seen, but it's delightful. I recommend it. But it's everything. We've spanned the full. You're across the universe. You're deep in it. Yeah. That's very fair. I want to talk before we close about living upstate because it seems like it's a really integral part to, you know, obviously your life and then the extension of this book as well. And I'm curious just how it feels for you in this moment and if there are any upstate like farms or restaurants or just kind of like places of existence that you would want to kind of give some love.

42:55Yeah. I mean, I'm an upstate girl. You have deep roots up there. I do. My great grandmother bought a house in Saratoga Springs, which is my hometown, in 1919. and so that I mean and then my grandmother lived there and my mom and I lived there and so that's to me that's the place where I feel most connected and myself and we still have family there and that's really important to me to be close I think it's wonderful I also now live in a village of like 1500 people and so like you know everyone and i find that lack of anonymity really pleasing you know just being what like looked out for by you know your like 90 year old neighbor who's always checking on the street yep um it's don't need a ring camera Exactly.

44:02Exactly. And so, I mean, I have there's a lot of places I love. I mean, so the the place where we get our flour that I was mentioning earlier is Sparrow Bush Bakery. They're at the Hudson Farmer's Market, but they also just opened a little bakery space like where where there you can actually walk in and buy things. And I find that they are like outrageously good.

44:32old books in Hudson is a great place that does exactly what you think it does. Mike, the owner there, is really, really wonderful. And also, if you're looking for a great coffee shop, Stony Kill Coffee in Chatham is Coffee Records, also some old books. and basically like you'll walk into that place and you'll think that you've like come into like a tv show from like a bygone era where it literally is like everyone's kind of shooting the shit and they know each other and um yeah I mean to me those are those are the places that feel like treasures the ones where you really have this sense of like oh this could only be happening in this place, in this moment.

45:22And also kind of maybe timeless as well in some kind of way or beyond like the very trend focused side of things. Yeah, definitely. Okay. I want to go to all of these places and just leave the city behind. I'm ready after like our an hour long therapy session on the mic basically. Score more with the college branded Venmo debit card and earn up to 5 % cash back with Venmo Stash. Got paid back? With the Venmo debit card, you can instantly access your balance and spend on what you want, like game day snacks, gear, tickets, and more. The more you do, the more cash back you can earn. Plus, there's no monthly fee or minimum balance.

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46:40Tap the banner to learn more. So good, so good, so good. Spring Styles are at Nordstrom Rack stores now and they're up to 60 % off Stock up and save on Rag & Bone, Madewell, Vince, All Saints and more of your favorites How did I not know Rack has Adidas? Why do we rack? For the hottest deals Just so many good brands Join the Nordic Club to unlock exclusive discounts Shop new arrivals first and more Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free Great brands, great prices That's why you rack I want to play a rapid fire game with you to close. Yay. Okay. Your favorite cookbook right now?

47:20The Book of Jewish Food, Claudia Rosen. Three things that are always in your fridge. Maple syrup. Homemade pickles. I'm sorry, it's raw milk. Ooh.

47:38I trust that you have a good source for it. Yeah, we do. Yeah. An off-the-record source for it. I mean, it's not off-the-record. It's Churchtown Dairy. They're great. Okay. In, like, brief, why raw milk? It's so good. It tastes better? It tastes better. That's it. It tastes better. I can't deny it. It tastes really good. I'm not a milk drinker, to be honest. I'm a huge milk drinker. Just straight? Yeah. With a glass of milk with dinner. Does the whole family do that? No, it's just me. Your calcium content must be incredible. That's what I'm saying. Strong bones. No osteoporosis.

48:19Your go-to ice cream flavor. I don't like ice cream. Oh. Which is a very bizarre answer after what I just told you. Yes, raw milk, no ice cream. It's not no ice cream, but it's not like I would take cake, cookies, anything else. Okay. Your go-to birthday cake then for yourself. Oh, okay. Chocolate, cake, raspberry filling, and like a vanilla, like whatever. It could be like any kind of like white frosting on top, buttercream, cream cheese. I don't care. Cool. Your favorite season for cooking? Fall. Do you want a Y? Yes. Okay. Because you have the best assortment of like fruits coming out, right?

49:06and also you then are like coming into like peak comfort food. So to me, fall captures all the good stuff that you think happens in summer but actually happens in early autumn. And then you also get like the other side of like the squash and the hearty things that you can't really get access to before then. Yeah, I agree with you. I think especially on the East Coast when the summer can be really hot, fall you can like cook with that summer produce for longer than like 10 minutes. You know? Okay. What you think is an underrated kitchen utensil? So I have a food bill to, like, make applesauce and puree soups and things like that.

49:50And Issei got it. And this is not a rapid question. I want to give you the why. Issei got it. And it was, like, kind of clunky. And I was like, I don't even know what this is. This is like when someone first told me what a 3D printer was. And I just couldn't understand.

50:06But the point being that I have found that it really does a better job of all the things that I would have used my blender for. So I do think it's worth it. And also I'm like a little bit of a prepper. So I like the fact that it doesn't use electricity. It's just like you just crank it with your hand. Totally. What you would consider to be the best sandwich? An Italian mix with banana peppers. lots of oil and vinegar yum your go to picnic snack mmm it's like a good salty chip lays any flavor? not kettle cooked just the regular plain old thin salty potato chip final question a fictional food scene like from a book or a movie or something made up that you wish you could eat in real life So a lot of my references right now are for children's books.

51:08And there is a Beatrix Potter story, The Roly Poly Pudding. And if someone hears this and knows the story, they're going to be like disgusted because it's a story of a cat getting rolled up inside of dough and almost getting cooked. And that's what you want to eat. No, there is like I have this really specific memory of like the butter that the rat steals from the kitchen. And it's this like yellow gleaming big pat of butter. And I just I've always dreamed of like that specific butter. I think the children's books probably have the best examples of made up things that I want to eat, even though they're not as elaborate as a Miyazaki movie.

51:53which is probably what most people say to this or like in you know a lot of movies are very elaborate but there's something about the like magical quality of the illustrated foods in children's books like bread and jam for francis do you know that book i haven't read it but i like it's in i can picture it a little badger child who just wants to eat only bread and jam and the way that she wants to eat this bread and jam it makes me want to eat the bread and jam uh-huh yeah okay i could just keep going forever but i'm gonna cut this off here this has been such a a fun and like soul warming conversation, Trinity.

52:26Thank you so much. Thank you. Teddy Kim, welcome to This Is Taste. So nice to meet you. You too. I mean, it's great to be here. Yeah, I'm excited to have you on. I feel this is a cool interview because we're going to talk about Last Call, a company you founded and really talk about like hangovers and cures and the way that you are remedying it a bit. I'm also going to talk about your writing. You write a column for Feed Me and you've written on your own sub stack. Link into that in the show notes. I just enjoy your point of view in the world of entertainment and culture. So I have some questions about that.

53:03Let's get into it. I'm excited. Well, you know what? We're going to do a little like interactive right now. You've brought in Last Call and you've been kind enough. I don't drink alcohol, but you brought me an athletic. Yes. I'm going to crack because right now we're kind of this is like this is an interactive product. so Teddy let's pretend this is like Friday night like 8pm I'm about to go out with my friends I'm having my first beer maybe my second beer and I've got this last call in my hand so what's going on here what am I doing so the way we recommend you take it I mean it's supposed to be pretty flexible you can take it before you go out you can take it at the end of the night as long as you take it before you go to bed but we find that it works best when you take it while you're out so that you don't forget And that's why we've made it really convenient.

53:50You can put it in your pocket. And then for us, we want you to take it out while you're with other people, kind of show it around. Yeah. And then take it at the restaurant or the bar. And then in terms of timing, probably after a few drinks in, you want to take it. And I think that's the best time, yeah. All right. Well, I'm taking it right now because we're about to have a little drinking session here. I got my athletics. Okay. Let's start with the basics. Why do we get a hangover? It's a good question. I think there's been a lot of like misconceptions and just received wisdom around it. I think a lot of people think, oh, you get hungover because you're dehydrated.

54:26You know, it often correlates with a lack of sleep, which is not good either. But, you know, the way that I first found out about this is digging into the science of hangovers. I remember reading this article in Wired magazine when I was in college. And basically the argument was that hangovers happen because your body is having like an all body inflammatory response to having alcohol. Like alcohol is a poison and it's triggering a lot of different things. So in the body, alcohol breaks down into acetaldehyde. Acetaldehyde is even more toxic than alcohol. That's causing inflammation. And then the other thing that's happening mainly is that there's a thing called GABA rebound.

55:02Basically, it makes your brain like too sedated. And then the next day you feel kind of like the crash from that effect of what it was doing to your brain. So basically what our product does, the active ingredient is called THM. It's a plant extract from a plant that's really common in Korea and Japan. And that helps your body produce more of the enzymes that break down alcohol and acetaldehyde into a more harmless compound. So it's basically bypassing that breakdown a little bit. It's speeding it up. So it's like less, it's present in your body for less time. Got it. So it's just like not, you know, present and taking over your extremities and your head.

55:40Yeah, yeah. You want to minimize the time that it's in the toxic state in your body as much as possible. I mean, I remember these days. I frankly do. And I think as you get older, of course, these hangovers get worse. But as a non-drinker, is there a World War Last Call should be part of my evening plan? I mean, the honest answer is maybe not for yourself. But I think you should have it on you for other people who might be drinking around you. And I think that's kind of where we want to be. We want it to be a very social thing. I think alcohol lends itself to social interaction and celebration.

56:17And so even when I'm not drinking, I'll have it on me and I'll give it out to people who might need it. So what's it like founding right now in 2026 and going back a few years? I mean, what's the environment like for you? And how do you see Let's Call, you know, progressing from, you know, baby stages now to more? Yeah. I mean, it's been a really exciting journey. I didn't have like a CPG founder background at all. I can dive into that. Yeah, I was working in entertainment, and I was working at a talent agency, working on Netflix for a little bit, and then I spent some time in a couple TV writer's rooms.

56:53And then it was only when there was this big strike in 2023 that I started thinking about some other things, and this idea had been in the back of my head. And so I just started talking to people, asked people about the industry, was kind of curious why it hadn't taken off. I mean, I've known about this compound since like 2014 and known it was in Korea. And then after a certain point, my co-founder and I decided, let's build a business around it. So it's been a lot of like learning, a lot of false steps, just educating ourselves on how to start a business. What's a big false step? Like just being transparent.

57:26I think it was just like knowing like who to talk to and what to say. Like we didn't know the right words to use. Yeah, right. So much jargon. Yeah, there's a lot of jargon. Doors, how many doors are you, all that stuff, you know? Like I had no idea making packaging would be so involved. Yeah. Which, you know, I think everyone who's done a CPG product understands. But coming in from the outside, I thought, okay, like we can just go to one person and they can do it. And it's like, no, we have to have someone print it. But it's going to be basically in a 2D state. And then I need to send it to someone else that like fills it with the capsules, seals them.

57:56And then ships it back to us. So I think figuring out like all the pieces that go together and figuring out like the unknown unknowns of it took a while. So what's the retail picture like right now? Are you in retail? or are you starting with direct-to-consumer? Right now we're just direct-to-consumer. Cool. We're talking to a couple stores and hope to be in retail for sure. But right now it's just on our site and Amazon. But the long-term picture basically is we want to be anywhere that alcohol is sold and consumed. Yeah. And I think part of the reason why I wanted to get into it was I thought in five to 10 years, if everyone is taking something like this and I had the idea but I didn't do it, I would be kicking myself.

58:35Yeah, yeah. So I am doing it and hopefully that's the picture in five to 10 years is that people get more health conscious around drinking, about the effects of alcohol, and people will look back and think it's crazy that people drank without it. Yeah, that's a great way to look at it. So when you talk about a few stores, where are your early retail channels? Like liquor stores. We've talked to some kinds of certain like shoppy shops, an Emily favorite term, have reached out to us. And then ultimately would like to get into big box, see stores, places like BevMo. Yeah, I feel BevMo and C-Stores where you see a lot of these types of products and energies at the counter.

59:15You want to be last. Last call's got to be there, right? 100%. And we'd like to be in restaurants and bars. So we've been talking to a couple of those. There are a couple of bars in the city, restaurants and bars that have them, but like 99 % don't. Yeah, I mean, it's a huge opportunity with all the – and honestly, if it's something that gets name recognition, you could see it on a menu of a bar. 100%. You can envision it there or even being given out. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, if it was in a different form factor, which we're kind of thinking about, you might want to make a cocktail with it.

59:44You might get it, you know, with your check. Basically, I mean, our pitch has been, what if having this on the menu adds a drink to every ticket? Like, what would that do to your margins? Can you imagine? I mean, thinking about different form factors, is there a reality where this becomes a liquid? Definitely. Yeah. I think our original conception of it was actually as a liquid. Yeah. And then we realized that it was faster and easier to get to market as a capsule. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But liquid, powder, something we're really excited about is making a gummy or jelly format. Yeah. That's often how you find it in Korea.

1:00:15There's a lot of room to play around with it. Well, we'll get back to last call. But, Teddy, I wanted to have you also in just to talk about some of your writing and your background. Because I think you referenced Emily. Emily Sundberg runs Feed Me. She's been on the show a couple times and tremendous work there. And you write a great column there. And there's just been some cool writing about entertainment, about food culture. I mean, you kind of dipped into a lot of different areas. And I loved this piece you wrote in October 24, which was about brands starting their own content studios. And examples you gave was Chick-fil-A starting a video studio.

1:00:55And Northwell Health here in New York, a conglomerate, I don't know, medical, I mean, I don't know what you call it. Yes, a medical group. Medical group. and you're kind of like poking at it a little bit. Like what does this mean? And I guess 18 months later, where have we netted out with brands actually owning their own content studios? Yeah, I think I wrote that piece because I thought there was something interesting. I think a lot of people had talked about how people like celebrities or other people with fame were using that fame to then build a brand around them. But then we were starting to see brands turn normal people within their companies into sort of micro celebrities.

1:01:35and building that internally. I think 18 months later, there hasn't been that much progress that I've seen specifically with Chick-fil-A or Northwell Health, although obviously Northwell Health has produced plenty of shows, unscripted shows on Netflix and things like that around their hospitals. But I also think often the first movers into space aren't the people that really make it go mass market. I've been seeing a lot of interesting things, especially in the tech world. I think this idea that you have to not only control the narrative, but like be the narrative and be the story, not just the storyteller, is something I've seen a lot pushed by like Andreessen Horowitz, the venture capital firm.

1:02:17They're like really big into new media. And a lot of their portfolio companies like, you know, Anduril, the defense tech startup, I think is doing a really interesting job of like pushing like storytelling content, almost narrative content about the people. and the product that they have. Yeah, and done with really high production value. I mean, think about the Northwell series on Netflix, the ER series, which is really well-regarded. Super high. Very, very cool. And I think about Taco Bell. Yeah. I think about them. They've tried some things on Substack to mix results, but I feel like they have played around with content studio work and kind of owning their own production.

1:02:59Yeah. I mean, I'm a big, I'm not so much of an unscripted guy. Like I come from a TV film background. So I'm really curious to see like if there are new kind of quasi narrative formats that come out of it. I mean, one thing that I've been following a lot is like Clueli, this AI company. And I don't know if they have a real product, but they've basically become infamous just by having these like TikTok reels, Instagram reels of almost like shorts of the office as a fictionalized workplace. and it's just it's a fun narrative it's fun content yeah um and i think in the food world like you know i'd love to see more content around like behind the behind the scenes like in the kitchen footage um you know i think you there's there's room for people to do interesting things like um almost do like a quasi narrative version of like i don't know like cooks hooking up or or the drama behind a kitchen that you don't really get on the front side i agree that i think that We've had so much reality in food world and doing scripted is interesting.

1:03:58I think what they're doing at Major Domo Media is interesting in that they've obviously done the big Netflix show, David Chang, but podcast network as well. And I can imagine a world where they underscripted and actually started producing Major Domo films series. Yeah. Or like a full feature doc. I'd watch that. Yeah. Yeah, I think that, you know, there hasn't been a big David Chang doc moment and certainly they are equipped to do that. For sure. Another topic you wrote about, which I think is super fascinating, is the emergence of prediction markets. And I think you've written really eloquently about, you know, the way that prediction markets, if they would have been around during Trump one and and covid, if that real time analytics and that predictive nature of it would have changed the outcomes of those two world events.

1:04:52I think is a really smart piece. I think I'd like to get your take, Teddy, about the way prediction markets may affect the food world. restaurants, CPG. It seems like this is still very early innings, even though there's so much media around it and ad buying around it. And we've seen Kelsey everywhere because of ad buying. But what do you think about that? Yeah, I think I'm torn because I think since I wrote that piece, we've seen prediction markets develop basically into sports gambling apps by another name. Most of the new volume on these platforms are through sports gambling. But I think the promise of the prediction market is still there, which is that before the prediction market paradigm, you have people who are so-called authorities who are able to go on their platforms or on CNN and say anything they want.

1:05:42And nobody really holds them accountable or checks back to say, hey, was this person right? And I think in that piece I wrote, I was talking about COVID. I was talking about the Iraq war. I was like, imagine if there had been a prediction market for? Are there WMDs in Iraq? And, you know, maybe that would have been the marginal piece of information that would have prevented the war. I don't know. You know, it's just a possibility. So I think when you think of prediction markets now, it's hard to look at them as anything but like dystopian. And some of the ideas that I'm going to say sound dystopian, and maybe they are, but I think there's a lot of interesting ideas that can come out of it.

1:06:20So for example, maybe there could be a prediction market for will a certain restaurant get a michelin star or two stars or three stars or by a certain date obviously there are people in the food media space that prognosticate on that already yeah if there's a way for people to kind of put their money where their mouth is and make that claim and if they're right like all the more power to them yeah i think you're right when it comes to those hard uh those those merit-based awards which have a real like There's a calendar around when it's dropped, so you can have a real prediction moment around Michelin star releases or the three, two, one, star New York Times.

1:06:58Totally agree. What about in terms of the grocery store? It seems like getting public sentiment in real time can really help founders and people working in grocery. And if there's a way to use this public sentiment prediction market to bet on... It could be sales data from certain retail channels. It could be from categories. It's a little in the weeds and maybe not a consumer-facing product, but it could be really fascinating. I think so. I mean, right now, that data exists, right? It's just that only the retailer has that data. Yeah, yeah. And then they choose when and what to share. Yeah. I think the prediction market, the promise is that, yeah, you could have a market saying, you know, sales of potato chips will be above or below a certain number by this date.

1:07:44and then the potato chip brands will have that information at least something to go off of before then. Yeah, I think this could really open up and then there's like the whole gambling side of it too which could be fun to like kind of gamble on like the trends. I mean, I guess you could look at like commodity markets as a form of the same thing. For sure. But also like making it more like user focused. I mean, it'd be really fun to like put our heads together and think about like trending foods And like, yeah, like Walmart sells X amount more of like chicken breasts pre-made, you know, or pre-cooked, you know, et cetera.

1:08:19Right. I mean, there are already like, you know, star commodities traders like making a lot of money doing this on like higher up on the value chain or earlier. And then, you know, maybe there could be a potato chain retail whisperer who becomes a celebrity if something like this exists. Got to ask you about the entertainment world because, you know, you worked at UTA, Netflix and A24. for, talk about working in the writer's rooms. You were in the room at Beef, is that right? And some shows on Netflix as well. Yeah, I worked on Beef and The Perfect Couple. Yeah, yeah. Oh, Perfect Couple, sweet, thanks.

1:08:50Yeah, yeah, The Perfect Couple. I mean, those were awesome experiences. I had worked kind of at the agency UTA and then at Netflix corporate doing creative development and then kind of unconsciously moved closer and closer to the actual creative process. And I mean, the writer's room is a really unique and special environment where there would be days where I would think, you know, I can't believe this is my job, positive. And then there would be days where I would think, I can't believe this is my job, negative. Yeah, yeah. But it's really special. And I think there are very few environments where you have that, like, really intense, compact, you know, short duration time where creatively you're locked in a room with 10 people and then you have to come up with a story to tell other people.

1:09:34I mean, breaking the narrative of beef. What a successful story and what a dark, dark show. I mean, the temperament of the room must have been really up and down. And what's it like? Take us inside the room at Beef a little bit. Wild show. I think in many ways the room reflected the contents of the show just emotionally. Yeah. There's definitely a lot of ups and downs, a lot of paths. Like I can't watch the show now because when I see it, I see like the alternate paths that we could have gone down or ideas. Your ideas, probably. Some, very few, yeah. That were rejected, perhaps. Small details.

1:10:10Yeah, yeah. But ultimately, I mean, the process was definitely messy and emotional, but I think clearly it led to a really good outcome. Yeah. And a lot of people have responded to it in a really strong way. And for me, I'm just grateful to have worked on something that most people have heard of, at least, if not seen. because I think for a lot of my friends in the writing world, you know, you take the job you can get, and sometimes that's beef, and sometimes you're on a Paramount Plus show that nobody has ever seen. And it might be a great show, but it's just not getting distribution. So are you going to continue working in this world while you're working as a founder?

1:10:49I think the screenwriting will take a backseat. I've got my hands full with Last Call, and then the way I'm scratching that itch is by writing that column for Feed Me for Emily Sundberg. But, you know, I wouldn't count it out. I would consider going back to it. Yeah, yeah. And for now, like, I'm just really interested in the storytelling side of the business. Yeah. And how do you create a narrative that makes sense to people, that gets people interested and excited about trying our product? So, Teddy, we speak with a lot of founders on the show. I mean, what are you seeing and learning from this environment of startup culture and CPG right now?

1:11:24I think you're really well qualified because you're an observer of culture and you're a journalist as well. So I'm sure you could become pretty cynical quickly with this world that has a lot of artifice. But I'd love to get a sense of that. And also just like the business strategy of last call moving forward. Do you raise money? Are you just trying to go and just make this like a cash flow positive business right away? Two very big questions. Sorry, I kind of forgot. No, no. Two great questions. I think on the one hand, like it's interesting, like the psychology and sociology around startups are starting right now.

1:12:00I can speak for myself in that I really want to do this because I thought it was a great idea. I thought there was a niche in the marketplace and I could see this growing big in like five to ten years. And then more personally, and I think maybe this speaks to like the greater economic environment, is that I was looking around, you know, I'm 31. People are buying homes, having kids. and I thought like oh my god like can you even um like buy a house anymore with like a regular job like you know it's almost like you have to start a company and then sell it in order to buy an apartment in New York City yeah um and I think that was that was a part of it and I think that relates to prediction markets or like sports gambling as a phenomenon there's a lot of writing lately about um like financial nihilism especially among Gen Z people and the idea that you like you're kind of already screwed I don't know if I can say that word on the spot yeah that you have to take a gamble of some sort.

1:12:53So for me, it was kind of like both things. Like I love the idea, was passionate about it. And then also was like, if I'm going to take a gamble, this is the one to take. And I think the second part of your question is, what was the long-term vision? Yeah, just, well, also just like in terms of the finances, like did you go private? Do you have a VC? Is it starting very slowly with like a little bit of funding and trying to get like cash flow positive? Yeah, I mean, we are sort of cash flow positive right now. We're unit profitable. And then, you know, basically when we started out, everyone was like, no one is going to fund you.

1:13:28Like, no one is excited about this. Like, is there a way to make it AI, right? Because if it's not AI, no one is interested in a CPG startup. And I think with that mindset, we've from the beginning very much deliberately tried to build in a sustainable way without taking that much funding. We've raised some small amount of family and friends money. And then basically now we're at a point where we don't need to raise anymore unless, you know, there are a couple big growth initiatives later in the year that we might raise for specifically. But we very much built with that mindset of like, okay, we have to be basically profitable on a unique basis from the first purchase.

1:14:04and then we are mainly driving our investment from the revenue that's coming in. Love that. And is the channel mostly Amazon and then on the website of Last Call? It's about 50-50. Great. But it fluctuates, yeah. And you're doing customer acquisition through meta ads and stuff for the website? Yeah, exactly. I mean, meta ads, which honestly, I would say last year, almost all of our customer acquisition was through word of mouth. Yeah. We had a great profile in January 25 in Feed Me, which Emily was kind enough to cover us for. And then the biggest thing that happened last year was that Bon Appetit wrote an article about us.

1:14:42And then that plus their social media post kind of blew up and just did an insane amount of volume. Love to see that. Love to see earned media working. Yeah, yeah. Love to see that. It was funny because people were commenting like, this is an ad, and I'm like, I swear I didn't pay for this. I'm surprised. but this year we're gonna you know take that build off the back of that and then really drive a lot into meta ads tick tock and kind of follow the more traditional playbook of acquisition yeah exciting stuff and I think it's such a smart product and man I wish you so much luck and wellness and in the growth of this company thank you man I'll take everything I can get so let's return to to entertainment a little bit I just had Ben Liebman on and we had a great conversation about like the future of food in television and online.

1:15:31And I wanted to ask you the same. I mean, Teddy, like what the hell is going on with food television? Because to me, it seems like no one knows on the buy side what's going on. And I see things greenlit in the reality world that seem like terrible ideas. On the scripted side, we have obviously the bear is what it is. It's changing the way food is thought about in development. Hopefully more things will come out of the front of house, back of house world. But you have a great point of view in this kind of entertainment food kind of nexus. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of the content that exists now has just gone repetitive.

1:16:13Yeah. You can only make a travelogue food show for the millionth time. Yeah. You can only make an unscripted show that you can just swap out the celebrity, like cooking in their kitchen, right? There's nothing new about it. So like I said before, I mean, I come from more of the narrative background. And I just think there's a lot of ways to explore here and make, if not make like, you know, a scripted narrative about it, like something quasi scripted, something with a storyline, with characters that has a through line from beginning to end. And I don't know exactly what that is, but kind of like I was saying before, like maybe it's like, you know, a series in a kitchen about two people who are real but playing fictionalized versions of themselves.

1:16:56And that's something people latch on to. I think there's room to experiment. I could see Matty Matheson doing a show like Dave where it's like a version of Matty that's like heightened or elevated and through his world. I just had Michelle Rabin on his co-star in the new cooking show that he's doing, Just a Dash. And I just think that he's got such chops. And I wish, I hope that people watch that show and the executives at Netflix and beyond see that there's traction here for more interesting creative shows around food because I fully agree this reality world is so repetitive and formulaic. And I feel like people are smarter about food.

1:17:37And it's frustrating that the buy side isn't seeing traction with smarter shows. Yeah. I mean, Dave is a great example. I mean, how I think less interesting would that have been if that had just been like a documentary where you follow Dave Burr around, right? It's so much more rich and creative as a scripted show. Yeah. I mean, Teddy, I mean, you're the guy to write this. Like write the spec script about back of house, front of house. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe I can write one about a food podcaster. I mean, listen, there have been some screenwriters in this room. We've talked about that. We'll put them together.

1:18:13I mean, I think there would be a really good food media show. I think that there's likely some scripts around that are kind of based around a food magazine. I think with the BA stuff and all that, you know, all that background and all that noise is a rich text, especially if you put it not in the current time, but maybe took it back 10 years and made it a little more nostalgic about a certain time, like the dawn of like food media on the Internet or food media and YouTube could be interesting. Yeah. I mean, I was just thinking, like, if there's a show about a food critic, like, that's such a great engine for a show where every episode you have to go to a new restaurant.

1:18:46Yeah. And you're encountering this whole cast of characters around that world. Agree. And, like, the fallout of the actual review. Right. There's so many, like, you know, swings of emotions happening during a review's process. I could see, like, both sides of it. I don't know if you've seen the Netflix show. I feel like it kind of came and went. But it's called Black Rabbit starring Jude Law and Jason Bateman. And I thought that was really fun. Yeah. Just, I think it's a lightly fictionalized version of a real New York City restaurant. Yep. And obviously they dial it up to 11 and make it crazy for primetime entertainment.

1:19:23Yeah. But that was a really interesting narrative. Look into that restaurant world that, you know, I didn't know a lot of that. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great example. I think that was also set in like the 2000s, like early 2000s, New York, like milieu of like the whatever, the misshapes era, which I think was cool. I just I feel like you're the one to do this. I'm just like anointing this like the future of food television. All right. So last call blows up. You exit. You get a nice check. What's the next idea? I know this is a hard one because you're working on last call, but you're a creative guy.

1:19:57What's what's in the what's the white space for you? I think, like I said, there's probably a world in which I go back to Hollywood and see what's left after AI has had its pick through the town. But I honestly do think, you know, on that side of things, like, there's probably going to be a lot of disruption, a lot of change. I think five years later, it's going to look very different from what it looks like now. But I am excited to go back maybe in a couple of years and see where the opportunities are. Okay. And yeah, maybe write something on the food side. I mean, I've always been interested in maybe like opening a bar one day.

1:20:34I have a lot of feelings and ideas about like what a good bar should be like and what kind of environment it should have. And I think it might be fun too. Maybe before I sell Last Call, we could create like a Last Call bar. A Last Call bar would be a great integration. Yeah. Absolutely. Teddy Kim, thank you so much for joining this. This has been a lot of fun. Thanks so much, Matt.

1:20:58This is Taste is hosted and produced by Matt Rodbard and me, Eliza Abarbanel. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergang Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skurzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.