766: The NYT's Freshest Voice Is Arguing About Pizza and the $40 Half Chicken with Luke Fortney

28:51The real villain is the garlic bread. It's not good. And that is the kind of final word. So good. What do you think of this piece? It's so good. I love this story. I mean, like, I think it's so funny that a video like this went viral. Obviously, it speaks to these being for-profit, algorithm-driven companies. But what's funniest to me is this is a horrible video. Not the content of it, but, like, you know, all respect to Tammy. She's one of my friends. Like, the quality of it is so low. I'm like, how did anyone watch this entire thing and then, you know, watch it possibly multiple times? She talks about people coming back to the video and commenting on other things she's posted later.

29:33I'm like, this is not worth anyone's time. So that's when you get to the conclusion that you're like, this is obviously being pushed to the exact right people with too much time. But I think the other takeaway is what her friend said. Like, this is deranged. And it speaks to just what we all have normalized, being like semi-public figures. Like, I sort of expect when I publish something about bacon, egg, and cheeses that I'm going to get a few hate messages. Somewhere in the vein of, like, you suck and a death threat, you know, in that spectrum. Oof, sorry, buddy. But, like, it's crazy. It's crazy.

30:15People don't often realize that there's just, like, a 30-year-old man, maybe slightly sick or hungover, sitting on the other end of the computer reading that. Yeah. Yeah. Or in Tammy's case, someone is just like out to dinner with their friend. Let's zoom out. Has this era of these extremely precise AI driven companies with these algorithms, has it really has it destroyed the joy of food in some ways? Loaded question. Yeah. Yeah. Has it destroyed the joy of food? Or on the flip side, I'll offer that to you. You know, has it just allowed more people to enjoy food and like grown the audience? and we care about the audience deeply.

30:53Going back 20 years, there's a very different audience caring about food. They were called foodies. Yeah. They were like in the minority. Now, it is the majority. It is truly one of the few water cooler topics. Yeah. The monoculture is food. Yeah. I mean, I think sometimes when I'm, you know, scrolling late at night or on the toilet in the morning, whatever, like, I think about like what I'm actually enjoying about what I'm watching. And these days, it's not usually the content itself. I'm usually immediately clicking into the comment section and reading the commentary about the video, which probably gets us to this issue right now.

31:33You know, it's like I, as much as anyone, am kind of like Ivy Drip hooked up to the scrum happening between Americans and bots, I guess. It might just all be bots. Very fair. A robo war. But yeah, it's like, something interesting though. This is a lesson from my editor, Tanya Saczynski at The Times. She gets a lot of hate. She has a very prominent YouTube show for her newsletter, The Veggie. Great newsletter. So good. Book out in the fall, plug in that. It's so good. Book out in the fall. The book's great. I've seen it. It's really, really good. It looks awesome. Come on. Yep. She responds to most of her haters over email.

32:19they'll send her some, I don't know, spiteful message about, you know, how her hair looked on one day, upset. And she'll respond and be like, hey, that's not very nice. And most people turn around and apologize. And they're like, you know, I was just like in a bad mood. I was late to work. Sorry. I didn't realize anyone read these. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just don't think most people think that there's like an impact actually or someone receiving it. Yep. I say that a lot. I agree with you. I think that a lot of times it's just mindless and like it's definitely catching people at a moment and they need some kind of release.

32:49World is tough for a lot of people and this is a great way to do it. Yeah. Great insight, Luke. I do it now too, though. I respond to all my haters. Great, yeah. There's sometimes like, you're so, there's a newsletter where I like quoted an elderly man in Flushing who thought I was Ben Affleck. And I mentioned this anecdote in, I was shocked, obviously, but like I mentioned this anecdote in the newsletter And within minutes, I got this message from this guy who's like, you egotistical, like self-centered, you know, fill in the blank. And I was just like, man, it was a quote. And also I was like, he said it, you know, I just was.

33:32And that guy never did apologize or respond. But I don't know. I like to think that he read the response at least. Yeah. I can't stop looking at your face, by the way. Oh. Like the fact you just said this. But you're like. I probably deserve that, actually. You're basically like, if Ben is the Dunkin' Donuts version, you're like the artisanal, like, liché pastry version of Ben. Oh, my God. Thank you. Jeez, that's really kind of you. That's what I'm saying. This is crazy that you just said that because I did not know that. No, no, no, no. We should stop talking about it right now. No, no, no. It's really funny.

34:06Just have to plug the— No, no, but it's a good point. Let's move on. Let's move on from Ben. Let's talk about one of your stories. At restaurants, fusion is no longer a dirty word. it's by Luke Fortney in the New York Times Fusion is back and this time nobody's embarrassed about it you open with a confession that you ordered tacos at Nobu and it sent you on a reporting journey let's just like you know start with that meal and what did you uncover in this really terrific piece okay so first it's important to explain how I ended up at Nobu which has been happening a lot these days like we were at a new restaurant, Double Knot, from Philadelphia, I believe, which we went to sort of as we had an article about dupes coming up.

34:55And we're like, I think Double Knot might just be a no-boo dupe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We go. We had a pretty rough experience. It was very new. And about halfway through the meal, I've never done this before, we're kind of like, we got to run. Yeah, exact. We hit the eject button. I've never done it before. We hit eject, and we went straight to Nobu. And we're like, you know what? At this point, we might as well have the source material and scratch the itch. And so we ended up ordering this taco, the Nobu taco. Have you had this before? I've never had it. No, I mean, miso black cod is what I know.

35:27Of course. Of course, I'm on a giri into sushi, but it's been years. You should check this out. It's like a fried wonton wrapper stuffed with whatever you want, king crab, you know. Sounds delicious. It's like perfect fusion. It's perfect fusion. And so this got me thinking about, well, a place like Nobu doesn't call it fusion, right? They just call it Nobu style, literally. And I was like, are people still using the F word? And it turned out there were a few chefs who were kind of full-throated fusion defenders. Different from the last era of fusion, whenever that was. these are not like white guy chefs kind of like pulling from places they went on spring break or trained.

36:16This is like first generation chefs in a lot of cases. One of them, Eric Tran, who runs Fallen Sai in Greenpoint, is Mexican and Vietnamese, one parent from each heritage. And he just is like jamming those things. Jamming is not even the right word. He's like kind of like letting those things French kiss on a plate. It's awesome. It's awesome. And so I was like, I just wanted to zoom in on this idea. Yeah. Like, what do we call this thing? Is it still fusion? Yeah, and I love that you, you know, profile a Jai Jung at Cajun, which I think is, honestly, a kind of an underrated chef. Completely underrated restaurant.

36:56Yeah. The new one that she opened. Yeah. Also called Cajun, making it kind of difficult to find. It's outstanding. It's such a great restaurant. Yeah, so it's in Murray Hill is the one I know. Where's the new location? It's in Murray Hill, like a block away. Oh, interesting. There are two Cajuns in the world now, a block away. This one, though, is a lot bigger. The last one is like the size of a minivan camper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This one has two floors. And it's the best kind of fusion where you don't even think about if it makes sense. You don't care. Yeah, yeah. And that's Korean Cajun. Korean Cajun.

37:32Yeah, yeah. There's this Galbi grits dish that she served at the original spot. Yeah. It's just like. And crawfish bibimbap. Perfect pairing. What the? Yeah. Really smart stuff. What's really funny to me is she obviously trained in New Orleans. Yeah. And she told me all these stories about the family meals she would cook down there. Making banchan with okra and things that she would just sort of sneak in. Yeah. And like, I was like, oh, what did these lifelong New Orleans people think about this that you're working with? And she's like, you know what? A lot of them started cooking it themselves.

38:08Like the flavors of like the fermented flavors, the spice of Korean cuisine just slots in so easily. Completely. I mean, the way I have written about this topic many times and I've defended the term just because I felt like I just didn't want to hate on the idea. and to me it just comes down to this is creativity at play this is taking two heritages that uh you know maybe personal may not be and two cultures and and putting them together but like doing it in a seamless way and paying tribute in a creative way right that's the most important thing it's not like a hackney like let's put yuzu in a carbonara because we want to just call you know you know attract two different, you know, diners.

38:52And I just love when chefs do this without apology. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's an interesting point because I think previous fusion was aimed at one type of diner. I think it was like, I'm kind of getting in so much trouble for saying this, but I think it was like white chef food for like white diners almost, you know? Like, it was really oriented as, like, let me show you this fun thing you haven't heard of or tried. Yuzu, you know, something like that. But with Training Wheels version. With Training Wheels, yeah. And now, though, it's like, this is fusion for anyone. It's fusion in the case of, you know, Eric Tran.

39:35You could go in and be Vietnamese. You could go in and be Mexican. You could be whoever. And there's, like, something that you're going to recognize in it. It's really respectful, thoughtful, I think. And so, you know, that was just like such an example. That was like one of my favorite newsletters I've done. Just like looking at this aspect of New York dining that's in plain sight, but we've overlooked for some reason. And when you say newsletter, because we're talking about food writing, because food writers talking, I mean, these are like reported features. Yeah. Like when you I mean, I think newsletter is it's like a term that can be many things.

40:10I mean, it's truly like this really deeply reported stories that have a lot of voice and color. And you're like you're doing this trick where you're like getting voice in your times. It's like not easy. Yeah. I like that you called it a coup. It is a coup. I wrote you that. It is a coup that you can report these stories. And I think it's credit to your editors and the team to realize that maybe this won't pass the style guide to get in like the the Wednesday blue bag hitting the door. but obviously people are reading the newsletter and to obviously have Times journalistic standards and have a lot of credibility and fact-checking and editing but also be able to go a little bit looser with the voice which I think is so, so good.

40:51Yeah. I don't know any other way to write, honestly. And I'm so glad that my editors have been supportive of it. They've at times told me to get weirder. You know, like I came in kind of in a suit and they're like, all right, loosen the tie, throw off the jacket, you know, and maybe cut the pants. And yeah, it's been, it's really cool. Like if you had told me like five years ago that I was going to be doing something like this and like, you know, writing fuck in the New York Times, I would never have believed you. What was the context? Was it like, oh fuck, like to yourself? Or were you like, like what's the fuck?

41:28Yeah, yeah, it's a quote. It was a quote. But still, I think that is a step in an interesting direction. I mean, including a fuck in a quote I've edited for years it has to be good. Yeah. You're not just throwing it in there. I'm trying to remember what the quote was. I'll text you later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's awesome. I also, I just, I don't know. Now I'm 30. I probably should be staying in more nights of the week. But I do think it's fun that there's like so much youth and food writing right now. You know? Yeah. I love it so much. I'm sure anyone listening to this is going to be like, you're ancient, dude.

42:05Ancient, my man. Sorry. But like, I felt ancient when I was getting frozen yogurt yesterday at Mimi's and like, you know, everyone's 13 years old in line. Did you read that story about Starbucks in Grub Street? I did. I did. Yeah, like that made me feel ancient. We could talk for a full hour about that one. Liz is coming on the show. We're going to talk about it. Perfect. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know. I think it's nice to have someone who is, I think what I add is someone who is just like constantly out. constant, probably to a fault. Yeah, man. Probably to a fault. Ask Wells Fargo what's happening in that bank account.

42:41I mean, like, yeah. I just, I think it's cool that the New York Times recognizes this changing, swiftly changing ecosystem and has this really robust newsletter every day, basically. Again, subscribe to it. I'm not, this is not paid, obviously. I just think you should be reading this work. Last story, also in the New York Times, but also I would say this is one of the examples of like a more traditional food desk or even I'm not sure which desk this came off of. Ken Webcams Help Solve New York's Restaurant Line Problems by T.M. Brown in The Times. I, you know, Ted, Teddy, I'm not sure his first name, T.M.

43:19I follow him on Substack. I believe he just got a job at CNN. He's really good. Yeah. And I was so happy to see his byline in The Times writing about food. I'm a huge fan of his work and I love this piece. It was kind of a quick and dirty reported piece and it really made a lot of sense. I'll summarize. A software engineer built a website called Damn Lines that streams live webcam feeds of queues outside four popular West Village restaurants, Industry Pizza, Breakfast by Salt's Cure, John's on Bleecker Street, and Salt Hanks. The logistics are kind of interesting. The founder, who kind of stayed slightly anonymous in the piece, has paid people who live across some of these lines to put a webcam in their windows and pays them a small fee or maybe not small.

44:06This idea isn't new. I remember when Shake Shack opened in 2006, I had a job around the corner. This is when they only had one location. I remember we would check the webcam to see what the Shake Shack line was. Now, I think restaurant owners have complicated feelings. I think one of the owners didn't even know it was there. I think some obviously think the line is great marketing. Others don't want to obviously show that they're slow as hell and not make the line move. And some people honestly don't care. And I think Ted, Teddy interviewed a few folks who were in line and had no idea that there would be a line at industry and just like stood in the line.

44:46So what did you think about the piece and in general about waiting on lines? Yeah. So I would be remiss not to mention that we're filming right after this, a segment for the New York Times Instagram account called Luke Hates Lines, where basically we go, literally right after this, where we go to restaurants that don't have a line and just kind of put forward these places where you can still walk up to the counter and someone's going to remember your order if you go two or three times. Which, by the way, there's like 25 ,000 or more restaurants in New York and like 100 of them have a line. Yeah, I know.

45:28It doesn't define the culture of New York. By any means. So I just have to self-promote for a second. Where are you going, by the way? Give us one. You know what? One of them is about fro-yo. Yeah. And I think more people should be spending time on the seventh floor of the Bloomingdales on 59th Street at 40 Carats, where you can get like a massive tub of pretty good tart fro-yo for like eight bucks. Sick. Great call. And let me tell you, being in the West Village yesterday, waiting at some of these like new places you could stand in line for like an hour yeah that's great sorry i cut you off anyway this is such a fun story yeah tm is such a great writer there was so many amazing one-liners i was left on the edge of my seat wondering though i wanted to know more about this person like to live in new york these days you need rich parents or some grift and so i was like of course there's a line And someone's going to be making money on it somehow.

46:25But I wanted to know who these people were who were hosting the cameras, first off. Yeah, yeah. Like, I would love to know the story of how he got in touch with them and, like, set up the cameras and, like, how much they're making. Well, I know the business model is so fascinating. It's fascinating. It kept it very, very vague intentionally. I mean, it's real data science, right? If you go to the website, it's really cool. It has, like, real, like, live data. and like kind of like the current line weight by people and then like the historical data of people in line. Like how long you can expect to wait or how long.

47:02That's so fascinating. It's so fascinating. I mean like line culture I don't think is getting any better. No. We all agree it's cringe when you stand on line or walk by one and we're like, oh man, this is not really like. Like, I'd rather see, like, a pile of rats fighting over a pizza. That's, like, way more New York than a line. But it's just, I don't. Also, when you walk by these lines, it's like a lot of them are people visiting the city. Yeah. You know, this is kind of where maybe tourism happened in Times Square before. Now I think it's happening outside of Lindistry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, it's all related to what someone sees on social media.

47:43Yeah, and, like, that's the one point about the tourists coming here where they have literally one shot to go. Yeah. And, like, that's why I, like, don't wait in lines. Like, I can't do it. Like, I just really can't. And to your point, there's, like, 25 ,000 other places to go, literally. So I can't wait in lines. Though we waited in line on the industry because we were doing a piece on pizza, so we had to go check it out. But I don't really, like, snark at the lines, the people in line because of the joy. Yeah. And, like, a lot of people, like, it's part of the experience, right? I mean I remember going back in Chicago going to Hot Dugs which was this like burger spot in that famously sold duck fat fries and there's always a line there and I felt like the cult of that line annoyed me but I waited and it was kind of at that time it was fun to wait in that think about lines for duck fat fries I know right instantly places that in time oh my gosh and and like he did he was a genius like the guy was like I'm paying the fines which got like so much press and like at that time in the early 2000s it was like you know an article in the paper got on the news and it was literally the biggest story in Chicago and those lines went from like 25 to 250 overnight different media cycle there but I just look at those people and I'm like that's cool you're having a good time you do you yeah you know I mean the reasons that people dine out are so varied I know right not to like you know I read a study about Gen Z but like you know I think that a lot of people who are younger than me, when I talk to them about the experience of dining, they want the thing they saw online.

49:14They don't mind the experience of waiting. Like you're saying, it's like could turn a single matcha into like an entire afternoon activity. I think there's also this feeling of like I earned this or, you know. Yeah. I don't know. But yeah. But Luke doesn't do lines. Yeah. Luke doesn't do lines. If someone was in the West Village yesterday, they probably saw me in like half a dozen different lines. But like the point of that series is just that like if there's a line, there's always, especially for things like pizza and bagels, there's like always another option that's like maybe unconsidered or under considered right around the corner.

49:51That's a great point. Yeah. We talk about lines all day, but I want to get on with it. So we do this segment on the show. What would you pitch? 1997, Graden Carter. The premise is that in 1997, Vanity Fair had an unlimited budget for freelancers. I was actually just talking to somebody the other day that knew of a friend who got$400K for three articles. I'd love to meet that friend. Yeah, I know. It's a different era, different time, respect to it. But I want to propose this to you. What would you pitch, Graden Carter, in 1997? Man, I was thinking about this last night and this morning on the way here.

50:24I was like, oh, God. I know the answer. I'm a little afraid to say it, to be honest. Okay, so last fall I went to France and did a wine harvest. I really hadn't spent much time in Europe, but I ended up on this farm in Lorraine, helping some friends, picking grapes. And there's this dish that just kept coming up, which is ordelon. You've heard of ordelon? Of course. Yeah, absolutely. you know mythic uh banned food depicted in television yeah i think it was banned in like 1999 yeah um the way that they prepare these creatures which are like these little song burns is is super inhumane you know they round them up like pump them up until they're like softball sized and then drown them in armagnac i think alive i yeah totally absolutely that's true So anyways, but what I learned when I was in France is that there's still Ortolan being captured.

51:25There's still Ortolan being prepared. This is like, you know, French presidents go on the record and like, this is my favorite meal ever. And I hear that Ortolan is being served in New York restaurants too. Very, like the first pages of Anthony Bourdain's Medium Raw are about like an Ortolan feast. Yeah, exactly. Happening discreetly under the napkins and everything. But I want to go hunting for Ortolan, not like actually hunting the animals, but like, I want to go see who is eating this and like what is happening in these like rural French kitchens. I'm so curious about the culture. People take so much pride in it.

52:07It's very generational. It's just like one of those dishes that like as a journalist lights up something in my brain. Yeah. And I'm like, are they going out in the night and capturing songbirds? It sounds like a great heist. Yeah. Anyways, I don't really endorse it, but I do find the culture around it fascinating. Yeah, you're not endorsing. It's just a rich text for journalistic discovery and investigation. And I heard that they're doing it in LA as well. Orlan? I'll talk to you off mic. Yeah, I've heard that it's happening in LA as well. And while the practice of Orlan, of the preparation of it is extremely inhumane, perhaps there's a nuance to this piece, right?

52:47Yeah. And maybe there is a humane way to do it and make it feel the same. You're having the same culinary experience, but not in the traditional methods. Yeah. And like, yeah. Anyways, I don't know. It's just like one. It's one of those dishes that I like. I don't want to like sit here and be like, oh, I'm better than eating an Ortele. because I had foie gras last week and dining in a restaurant generates inhumanities. But I would be curious to taste it. If I was reporting and there was a leftover scrap from some chef, I would be curious. I would love to read that. Yeah. Hey, man. Let's get someone on the phone and make the Ortolan story happen.

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56:10Well, let's wrap up with the taste check on This Is Taste. We ask guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a rapid-fire Fast & Furious Taste Check Media Edition. Luke, are you ready? I'm ready. I think. What is the first thing you read in the morning and where do you read it? Oh, God. Email, hate messages, toilet. It's, yeah, very quickly just scrolling through. Horrible copy I wrote the night before at the bar. Yeah, yeah. So you're editing within notes? I will never show my notes app on camera. I know. But you will see all of the newsletters in my notes. Some form of them.

56:46Yeah. You? You ever write in there? I write in notes mostly in bullets. Okay. I do like a little bulleting. And then I write typically traditional. I'm touching the keyboard. Okay. Real quick. You might relate to this as a writer. But like for me, sometimes the format starts to stifle me. So I used to do Google Docs. And then I was like, I can't do this anymore. No, no, no. Notes has started to not be enough. Now I am writing in text messages to myself. Yep. That's really good to have done that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes I just got to shake it up. I think Helen Rosner shared with me that she did a lot of her writing in Gmail.

57:21Yeah. Like draft of an email. That's a great place to write. Great place to write. I've done that as well. It's a great place to knock out a thousand words. Just like write your draft in Gmail. Yeah. In that box. What do you read on actual paper, if anything? Oh, I have books usually. I mean, like I don't read much media in print outside of maybe like a zine. Yeah. or a magazine, but like, yeah, mostly it's books these days. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mostly it's books. I have, I'm like really showing all my cards, but I have Medium Raw and Garlic and Sapphires by Ruth Reichel on my bedside table. My God.

57:59A friend saw this yesterday and was like, dude, that is so bad. It's like a man's bed without a top sheet, you know? It's like, it's so bad. I mean, I think, I mean, Garlic and Sapphires is a must read. It's so good. So good. It's outstanding. Come on, read it. It's great. Your favorite food publication growing up? Oh, man. My upbringing is so boring. I didn't really read food media. It's all good, man. I didn't really like – I don't have one of these like food writer backgrounds where it was like, man, I woke up and read the review in the L.A. Times. My mom had a gourmet subscription since I was two.

58:35I was a late bloomer. Yeah. Fair. I mean, listen. Feel free to clip that. Clip it. Yeah, clip it up. Clip it up. You mean like edit or put it on the internet? Put it on the internet. Yeah, Luke Cornillo is a late bloomer. Yeah, no, I think it's actually the more common response when we talk on the show. A lot of folks have been honest, like come to food media in different ways and maybe it wasn't part of their tradition. Do you have a relationship with PBS food or food programming? You know, okay, so PBS, no. But like I was thinking about this question and maybe it's a little generational. I don't know.

59:07Yeah, yeah. But the first sort of like food television I consumed was Alton Brown on the Food Network. in a home ec class. And I remember like, he taught me how to crack an egg, you know, on the surface rather than on the rim of the bowl. I just remember that blowing my mind. I remember, yeah, anyways, shout out Elton Brown, I guess. Yeah, yeah. Unless he's done something bad since then that I don't know about, but. I think he's okay. Okay, okay. He's an okay guy. All right, thank you, Mr. Brown. Yeah, Mr. Brown's a good guy. Let's talk about YouTube TikTok. Where are you at right now with these two specific platforms?

59:42I use YouTube only on my television. Oh, wow. You know? You're one of those guys. I'm one of those guys, yeah. I mean, apparently that's what everyone does now. Really? It's like a streaming service, basically. And I watch, like, the most... It's awful because now it shows your recommended YouTube algorithm when you open your smart TV. Oh, yeah. And for me, it's, like, all video game stuff. Like, video game playthroughs of shit that's, like, 20 years old. Oh, 20 years old. It's, like, World of Warcraft playthroughs. And I used to play a lot of World of Warcraft when I was a kid. But I, yeah, anyways, I have to be very quick about like toggling over to Netflix.

1:00:21TikTok though, I use every day. The new ownership of the platform is really unfortunate. I definitely have been spending more time on Instagram reels because of that. But like as an idea, scrolling all the time. A lot of inspiration for the newsletter comes from something I see in like a 30 second reel. Yeah. Because your algorithm is really tuned to what you're looking for, which is, you know, New York City, hidden secrets. And World of Warcraft. And it just knows. It knows me better than my own mom. You know, it's like, it's really tuned in. So, yeah, I get a lot of like affordable dining, Queens, Bronx coverage, which is awesome.

1:01:00I learn about places I never. Hidden gems culture. Yes. Have you written about hidden gems? I wrote a newsletter about like restaurants hiding in plain sight, restaurants and grocery stores and punk rock venues. Yeah, yeah. I guess I tried to avoid the word hidden gem. I think I actually did. I think I'm tapping into not the content because obviously we report on hidden gems, but just the idea of the hidden gems voiceover. Like, you know, let me show you a hidden gem. It's a sushi bar in a CVS. It's Lindistry. Yeah, I just think that is such an interesting kind of genre of YouTube and TikTok. The influencers have really figured out the hook.

1:01:39Like almost better than most journalists have figured out the headline. Yeah, fair. Like, yeah. Last one. Where do you want to be in five years with your career? I hope I'm sitting right here talking with you. Running around still eating pizza. The colonoscopy results have come back positive. Yeah. I hope I'm in good health. Yeah. Like, I hope I'm in good health. I'm still writing about food. and that this industry is still alive in a way that we can be sitting here talking about it. I like that. I hope you get to, well, I know I'll see you in five years in this seat in wherever form, wherever you may be.

1:02:10And you have a real passion and skill. Luke, such a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for joining us, Is Taste. Thank you for having me. So much fun.

1:02:23This Is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skirzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com And make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.