770: Tacos, Tortas, Tamales, Tostadas: Jorge Gaviria & Fermín Núñez on Mexico's Street Food Canon

18:24Jorge Gaviria:cut it too late it's going to be dry which is the worst yeah right like you need that yeah punctious hate the word but it means something factor uh jorge how do you talk to the taqueros when you're when you're when you're researching you know i'm sure mexican mexican food culture everyone's open, but there's definitely like trade secrets. You're out here writing a book. You got this dude with an expensive camera. Take us back. Take us to like talking to the caros who are holding all the secrets. I mean, I think like just obviously being polite, you know, just good manners go a really long way.

19:01Jorge Gaviria:You know, just enjoying staying out, staying for a little while, you know, just hanging and getting to know them in a non-threatening way, like just being a good traveler, you know, like, yeah, But we were lucky because we worked with, I mean, we had a lot of ground to cover. And so we actually, we all kind of agreed on the places that we wanted to show in the book. And I kind of tease in the beginning and the forward, like, you know, these are all the wrecks that you're going to sort of find. And then I don't end up giving you any wrecks, but there's a couple Easter eggs. But we had to do a lot of groundwork ahead of time.

19:32Jorge Gaviria:So we had teams down there who were basically just like letting them know, like, hey, is it okay if we shoot here? You know, and so we were welcome with open arms. But, you know, if you don't have that, just kind of pulling up a chair, staying a little while and, you know, putting on a good face. You know, what was the scope of your travels for the book? Like when you talk about all the ground you covered, describe that. We did a week in Mexico City. We wanted to go more places. Fermín's from Torreón, which is in the north. And we really wanted to do some Torta shots there. But it was just way too like with all the schedules.

20:06Jorge Gaviria:And we were traveling with a prop stylist, two photographers, Fermin me, Danielle from my team, and then Alex Roa, who was kind of our person on the ground connecting all the dots. But yeah, we did a week in Mexico City. We actually shot some plated recipes there, which was really cool. And then we did two weeks in Los Angeles doing studio shots. And I still don't know how we didn't have enough photos. It was like we really like hyper-selected in the field and we were like, we need to do more. Yeah, that's the beauty of cookbooks. Switching gears, and I'll ask you for a minute. I mean, did you see the queso media craze coming like years ago?

20:47Jorge Gaviria:Because like, it really feels like TikTok and just like in general, we love this dish broadly.

20:54Tommy Hunt:Yeah, you know, I don't think I ever saw it coming. I couldn't be like, oh, man, that's going to be a thing. I think I could have predicted way many other things before that in the food world. But I think it's an exciting thing to be excited about, you know. What's not to like about bire cheese and red oil tortillas dripping and then putting them in the broth?

21:15Jorge Gaviria:I think that's just an exciting place to be in. I mean, completely. And Jorge, you mentioned BDS or it goes in Chicago. Yeah. Like, I love that reference. It's a great restaurant. And talk about the consomme, why it works so well for you. I mean, I love that recipe because it's not the traditional birria that I've seen. I mean, birria was basically made to mask the gaminess of like pretty intense meats, you know. Like it wasn't always, you know, goat or lamb or, you know, it was like whatever you could find out there. And so you had to have a lot of spices to kind of like drown it out a bit and mute it.

21:52Jorge Gaviria:And so Piria Saragosa is amazing. I think they use like a mole rub, like a dry rub. And man, it's like that taco de cabeza that they do is like, I'm not like a huge awful guy. Like I don't say that to flex, but it is. You're not a lengua dude? I like lengua. Sorry, I guess maybe like a more, and I'm also like a tripas guy. But like I'm not like a honeycomb tripe kind of guy. You know what I mean? I don't like crave brains. Yeah. You know what I mean? but anyway that is like really the most incredible bite I think I've ever had like I crave it daily yeah it's a terrific restaurant you were shaking your head a little bit you are a tribe guy for me I love tribe

22:31Tommy Hunt:where I'm from and honeycomb no honeycomb no honeycomb but I mean I do love honeycomb like if I'm going to make a taco it's not going to be with honeycomb that's what I'm about I'm just happy we agree on that tough hang sometimes

22:41Jorge Gaviria:the honeycomb yeah that's good not my favorite yeah Yeah, I wouldn't roam.

22:50Tommy Hunt:Exactly.

22:51Jorge Gaviria:But talk about like lengua. That's my number one taco. I seek it out. I'll even eat the funky stuff. I love it.

22:59Tommy Hunt:I mean, for me, lengua I love is the texture. You know, you can eat it sliced. You can eat it like shredded. There's so many fun ways to enjoy it. And it's one of those things that it's like I really enjoy eating it in the morning. But to me, tripas is one of my favorite things to eat, the intestine. because where I'm from, you know, I love this thing about taquerias where, like, you go for a taqueria for the one thing they specialize in, you know, like in Mexico City, usually the taquerias that do suadero either don't have pasor, or if they do, you don't get it there, you know? And likewise, like, if you go for the pasor, the one taqueria, you don't usually go for the suadero, the same one.

23:36Tommy Hunt:And in Torreón, where I'm from, there are stands that are just doing tripa, and they do them to order. They have big vats of, like, oil ready to go. and they know if it's your first time, if you ask for more than two tacos at a time, because then they'll deny you. No, you can only get two at a time because they'll get soggy. So when you're ready for the next ones, I'll fry the next round and then get you your tacos. Bless them. And it's something that I just grew up with and didn't realize how magical it was until I went back as an adult, as a chef, with a point of view that's like, why aren't more people doing this?

24:10Jorge Gaviria:I love that. So we have to talk about LA Tacos. you were there shooting. I mean, Dylan has some spots, I'm sure. He took you to. What are some favorite Taquerias in Los Angeles? Let's start with you, Jorge. I mean, it's funny. I don't know a lot of them by name. Yeah, sure. It's like the one that's on the corner here and the one that's on the corner over here. I mean, I have to give a shout out. This is not the answer that you're looking for, but we actually have the team from Detroit Taqueria over at shooting basically with us the entire time in Los Angeles, like, making everything. And, I mean, their approach, I think that they've, like, become kind of an institution.

24:49Tommy Hunt:Yeah, I mean, I'm bummed you said that because I was going to say that. Let's hear yours. Well, I think they do a very good job at, like, taking the soul of a good taqueria and doing it very well without, you know, ruining, like, oh, man, I'm at, like, this fancy place. Like, they make an incredible tortilla. The feelings taste just like what you would find in the streets, but maybe with a higher quality protein. The sauces are always fresh. Like it's coming from literally the back of a kitchen that is doing extremely great, well-done plated cooking and taking the same ingredients and same tortillas and serving them to you in a taco form, which is, I think, one of my favorite ways to enjoy food.

25:29Jorge Gaviria:I fully agree. Let's stick with you, Fermín. Suerte este bar toti. You know, you're running this restaurant group. I mean, do you feel yourself, are you able to cook the food, like the personal food for yourself? Do you feel like these restaurants represent that?

25:49Tommy Hunt:100%. Yeah, I think that's what I love doing every day the most. I don't get to cook a lot of it myself anymore, but I've been lucky enough to have the chefs that are running the restaurants on the day-to-day do an incredible job at it. and we communicate very well through how we want to cook. And that's even also more exciting than cooking it myself because when they make something that I would have made better, I'm like, this is a dream. That's what I'm excited about to do every day and put in my shoes and I get to be the chef of all these restaurants with all these amazing people that helped me contribute to the dream.

26:30Tommy Hunt:Cauliflower ceviche.

26:31Jorge Gaviria:Cauliflower ceviche, man. Switching to you, Jorge, so nexomalization is like your shit. Like it's what you're known for, this book that you wrote, Masa. It is terrific. And I think most chefs have it on like you'll see it in restaurants everywhere. It's kind of amazing to see that. But though with that said, that's a lot of professionals. Like home cooks maybe aren't understanding about cooking with fresh masa and nexomalization. make the case if needed for making your own tortillas at home for those who love Mexican food, but maybe aren't making that that part of their practice. Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest part of just the kind of the educational push was just that this is an oral tradition that had never been documented in a real significant way.

27:19Jorge Gaviria:You maybe had cookbooks that had referenced it for a page, but like it's a lot more complex than just a page. You know, there's a lot of dynamics and variables that go into making, you know, perfectly, perfectly next to the live tortilla. So, you know, I think, do you need to do that? No, I think like anything else, it just gives you respect for the things that we often take for granted. And I think a tortilla is at the top of the totem pole when it comes to that. Like, it's like, you know, until before 12 years ago, like people never charged for them. You know, you got chips on the table, like as part of the experience that are all for free.

27:51Jorge Gaviria:And like, you're sort of just, we're all mindlessly eating this. And I think it really allows you to appreciate just like the wisdom of the tradition that made it possible. So do you need to make nixtamalized corn tortillas at home from scratch, scratch, scratch? Yes. Yes. Unequivocally, yes. If you want to do, if you want to take like kind of the next best thing, you know, making it with masa harina, masa flour is also just kind of like that Betty Crocker, you know, kid in a kitchen experience where you're just like, I cannot believe I just made that. And I can't believe how easy it was and that I haven't been doing this for my entire life.

28:25Jorge Gaviria:And plug Masienda. You can help them get there, right? We help you do that if you want to do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which isn't from me. You weren't still in your company. No, no, I appreciate it. I wanted just to, Masienda is dope. It's a great product. I'm going to ask each of you, I'll start with from me, you know, give us maybe a mistake that many home cooks make when cooking Mexican street food at home and how can they correct it?

28:51Tommy Hunt:One thing that I always tell people in this regard is like, when you think you burned your ingredients enough, you're not even close. So good. And it's also because it goes against everything you know about cooking, you know? You're taught to not burn things. You're taught to not overchose. And Mexicans are like, hold my beer. Take this further, you know?

29:15Jorge Gaviria:Love that sentiment. It's, you know, color is flavor. Yeah. Malia reaction, you need a little bit of that going on for flavor. Oh, yeah. I love that. How about yourself, Jorge? I mean, not overthinking it. I think just not coming from a Mexican background. We get a lot of folks who are like, hey, I didn't grow up in a Mexican household. Will I be able to do this? Or I'm not a cook. Can I do this? And it's like, I think if you were able to find an entry point that you feel comfortable with, like a salsa, for example, burn it. Or don't burn it. Do a raw salsa verde cruda. You know, you can totally, you can, I think like the mistake is just believing that this is like outside.

29:52Jorge Gaviria:It's a, it's a cookbook that's in Spanish, you know, like it's a Spanish title. And I think people might be intimidated by that, but just boil something, you know, like throw it in a blender. And you've got, you've got a really, really amazing experience. I love that you brought it there. I think they're together. These are wonderful sentiments because I think you're right. The book is written so clearly that these is not, um, all the recipes are not the most difficult recipes you're going to find on the cookbook. shelf. I mean, there are, like, you can make, there's a mole recipe that takes a long time.

30:19Jorge Gaviria:That's a tough recipe. You, you, and you set it up. It's almost like, you know, you set it up throughout the book. It's hard. Yeah. But most of the recipes, very doable. Yeah. Yeah. It's not overly technical. We had to kind of dumb for me down a little bit. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah. I don't know. No, it's just like Mexican food is, it's, um, you know, it can be prep intensive, like a mole tamal you've gotten with the confit. It's like three, three, a lot of work, but, uh, I mean, a salsa is an amazing thing that I think you can feel really empowered and connected to the culture and realize that this is a gateway for unbelievable flavors.

30:54Jorge Gaviria:And Mexico is a condiment culture. Start there. Start with the condiments. And maybe with a – how about like a protein course for tacos or tamales? What's a good place to start?

31:08Tommy Hunt:I mean, I think if you're going to start with like tacos, I think carnitas or suadero are something that can like the work that you put in, the reward you get back from it. It's like, oh, I did that. Yeah. And then you kind of pat yourself on the back with that because it's like cooking them in oil. And the only thing I have to plant for is like the timing for it. Yeah. And tamales as simple as like the bean and cheese tamal. You know, you might be intimidated of like the mole tamales or anything like that. But if you just start with like peanut cheese, everybody has that of peanut cheese taco.

31:40Tommy Hunt:But why not put in a tamale? And you're like, oh, okay, this is the first level. I can do the next one next time.

31:46Jorge Gaviria:I love that. On This is Taste, we ask guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? No. I want each of you to take these. So we'll start with you, Jorge. The best fruit. Pineapple. Mango. The worst vegetable? Okra. Eggplant. Wow. No repeats yet. I like it. What is your typical breakfast? Berries, oatmeal, nuts. Scrambled eggs with a little bit of ham. Nice. I like it. The best dessert? Didamisu. Il flottant. What?

32:26Tommy Hunt:The floating island. Oh, explain it. It's like a, I don't know. I've had it a few times, but I've only had it once where I was like, this is incredible in Paris and Paul Barrett. And it's creme anglaise, super, super cold, with like a slice, meringue, and almonds on top. Oh, yeah. Phenomenal.

32:45Jorge Gaviria:It's a Paul Barrett. It's like one of the classics there.

32:46Tommy Hunt:It's a classic French dish. It's like, it's floating island because it's like, the meringue is kind of floating on the anglaise. It's really fun. But it's like, it's just simple.

32:54Jorge Gaviria:A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead. Lalo. Lalo was like by Gerardo from El Rey was like just a moment in time and you walked in there and it was like the sexiest most delicious most interesting restaurant and it was gone too soon that was like in Chinatown? yeah was that in the former Winnie's? like the karaoke spot? I think so which is Lalo I thought like that was where then it became Lalito yeah but yeah it was like very very short lived and that was that's not here that's a very good answer I forgot about that place and great how about yourself?

33:25Tommy Hunt:I think I've got two. One that I went to and one that I never got the chance to. Bobby Flay was one of the best chefs that I was looking at the TV. And I was like, oh, my God, I want to eat this food and never got to eat at any of his restaurants. So, you know, I think Mesa Grill would have been. I would love to eat there now. And one that I loved so, so much. Yeah, Mesa Grill was amazing.

33:48Jorge Gaviria:Sorry, I'm not going to flex. Thanks for rubbing it in. I'm sorry, buddy. It was cool. Yeah, sorry.

33:52Tommy Hunt:And one that I went to that was actually really inspiring for when we opened Suerte. And I think they've done other versions of it, but haven't brought Brad the original kind of like what you were thinking. Broken Spanish in L.A. was a huge inspiration for how we started cooking at Suerte back in the day. I didn't know that. So, you know, one that I've been to, one that I never made it out to.

34:11Jorge Gaviria:Comedores open now. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Nice. Oh, yeah. It's doing great. Yeah. You're right. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food? Chicago. Outside of America. It feels like outside of America. I mean, listen, let's roll with Chicago. Are you from, you're from Miami, right? I'm from Miami, but we - You live in LA? Yeah, I live in LA. So you went with Chicago. Yeah, it feels like a different world for me every time. I feel like it's the shell of what America used to be and the peak of industrialized food. You've got the sugar factory. You have an adhesive factory. it's like it's just very romantic to me and then you go into places like peteria saragossa and you know rubies and it's just got this you've got like the greatest tortillas in the world there like it's it feels like its own its own country its own island yeah love that sentiment i think mine's pretty predictable mexico city and monterey phenomenal cities to be eating at uh sam euclis was shooting in monterey earlier this year and i was like i gotta go to this city it looks I mean, Sam does great work.

35:20Jorge Gaviria:He looks insane. Tell me about Monterey. We could go for a long time. Oh, we could have a whole episode in Monterey.

35:26Tommy Hunt:It's one of those cities that have been making food with that grill asada flavor in their own way. And I think people are finally catching up to it. And it's incredible. I love eating there because it's very strong points of views. You know, anytime you sit at a restaurant that is doing that kind of like Montserrat cooking, like you always start with like the classic salsa of like fresh chile piquin, a little bit of lime juice, sometimes olive oil, a little bit of garlic. And it's like that way of eating carne asada with high acid, high spice. It's amazing. One of the recipes, though. Shout out to, yeah?

36:05Tommy Hunt:Yeah, one of the recipes, La Cachetada. It's inspired by one of my favorite restaurants, Cara de Vaca. and now it's an item on our menu at our seafood restaurant, Este. That's wonderful.

36:16Jorge Gaviria:Last one, your favorite sandwich. We just did this yesterday. BLT. Okay, good choice. A proper club sandwich. Ah. So why are they different? Explain. Wow. I mean. Triple dicker, first of all. One is better than the other. I mean, just like, just unapologetic bacon, you know? I just had one recently at Breadhead in LA, and it got me back on the VLT train. Just also nicely seasoned tomatoes, Jeff. Got to season those.

36:48Tommy Hunt:But club, you're totally... I mean, like when you have the proper thickness and toastiness of the bread. Yeah. And, you know... Thick, thin? Yeah, thin. Because it's like you're layering, you know? Yeah, I get it. And you have to cut it in triangles. Like, I hate it when they cut it in half. Yeah, that half doesn't make sense. That's like a Reuben. Exactly. That's not a... If you're like triangles or toothpicks, it's incredible. You put it on your menus at your restaurants? I've never. I don't think there's a spot for a club sandwich. Yeah, you could really.

37:16Jorge Gaviria:I think it's bar Toti for sure. Toti, I was thinking Toti.

37:19Tommy Hunt:Made with food? Made with food. I think I love it so much that I don't want to screw it. I've been talking about this as my favorite. This is one of the questions we always ask our new employees or hires or anybody that's applying at Suerte and they don't know that it's happening. It's like, tell your name, where you're from, why you're here, and then what's your favorite sandwich? And everybody like kind of freezes sometimes. Yeah. Except for the real ones you hire. Exactly. And they're like, it's like, boom. Exactly. On me, boom. So I've been talking about club sandwich that is like, if I make one on the menu and it's not like 100 out of 10, I think that's...

37:53Tommy Hunt:Can the torta be a club sandwich? Oh, I think you can make a torta version of a club sandwich. Yeah. Yeah.

38:01Jorge Gaviria:I think that's, I think we're going somewhere. We're going somewhere. Yeah. Coming to Sorte soon. I can't wait to visit Austin and really hang out more. Jorge and Firmin, thank you so much for joining us. This is Taste. Thank you. Thank you so much.

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39:39Jorge Gaviria:$15. They match you with licensed therapists based on your actual goals and needs, not just whoever's available. And appointments can happen as soon as tomorrow. Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high-quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance. Visit rula.com slash taste to get started. That's R-U-L-A dot com slash taste. You deserve mental health care that works for you, not against your budget. Tommy Hunt, welcome to This Is Taste. So great to meet you. Thanks so much for having me. I'm going to go on a limb and just say that you have some strong opinions about New York City restaurants.

40:18Jorge Gaviria:I do.

40:19Fermín Núñez:I won't say I'm an expert after only being here for nine years, but the city's been very kind to me and I love it dearly.

40:26Jorge Gaviria:I'm joking. And I think I just think when you work in operations and you run at Hawksmoor for years and now you're working with the team at King on a brand new opening dean. So you look at restaurants in a very unique way. Don't really have too many folks in your in your seat come on the show. You usually have chefs and, you know, blah, blah, blah. But like you really know what's going on. That's very kind.

40:50Fermín Núñez:Yeah, it's a unique position. And I really have enjoyed the culinary background and being trained very classically in France and Spain and then being able to sort of move front of house, get the wine knowledge and learn about the whole sort of business holistically.

41:05Tommy Hunt:Yeah.

41:06Fermín Núñez:It's not a unique path. Many people are trained in it and it's definitely not a traditional one in terms of staying in your lane and being a chef or being an operator. But I really feel that it's given me a real balanced view of being able to sort of help the chefs and help the kitchen run a good kitchen and a good business, as well as influence the front of house and the whole business as a sort of unit.

41:28Jorge Gaviria:Again, it's not traditional, but it's just the path that I've trodden. No, I think it's really great. And your perspective is really appreciated on the show. Before we get into all that, Tommy, when you're not working at your own restaurants, where in New York have you been loving? I know you have a two-year-old, so you're not out at maybe as much, but what do you love?

41:44Fermín Núñez:Oh, well, my go-to and the one I sort of recommend to anyone visiting is Maison Premier. I used to live around the corner.

41:52Jorge Gaviria:That's so cool.

41:53Fermín Núñez:I was worried in lockdown when it was, I was worried whether it'd come back or not. And then it did with even greater acclaim.

41:59Jorge Gaviria:But you can't beat a midnight martini after a shift or an absent cocktail just listening to the New Orleans blues, which is a firm favorite of mine.

42:07Fermín Núñez:Yeah, you write that in your Instagram profile. Blues is your music. It is. Yeah. Yeah, no, so I've had a couple of trips down to New Orleans, and piano blues is my favorite. So that combined with food and that sort of environment is partly the reason I love moving here and opening Hawksboro in Chicago. I was lucky enough to get to some of the blues bars and the best blues bars in the world.

42:28Jorge Gaviria:I was going to say, Chicago is the beating heart in America. I mean, New York barely has any blues bars anymore, it seems.

42:35Fermín Núñez:Yeah.

42:35Jorge Gaviria:Where would you go in New York if you were to see live blues?

42:37Fermín Núñez:Oh, well, went to Terra Blues, just on Bleecker. Had a great night there. Love that. The guy with the guitar went round the back. He was acoustic, so he went round the back. Stood on the bar as well. But piano blues is my favorite, so anywhere that's showing that. And that's why I went up to Chicago. We could go to see Muddy Waters, go and see Muddy Guy, Bloody Guy. It's a great, great service.

42:58Jorge Gaviria:I love that. Well, you joined Hawksmoor when it was essentially a bar in Spitalfield, and it's celebrating its 20-year anniversary this year. And I've been, years ago, to this iconic restaurant, steakhouse, cocktail bar, like all purpose, really innovative and certainly came over to the States. But did you, when you were there, when you were working those shifts, did you ever think that you would end up in New York?

43:22Fermín Núñez:Well, never, never at that time. So that was what, 2007, 2008. It was a really special time actually because sort of the combination of people, product, the charcoal cooking, finding some of the best steak in the UK, add into that an amazing cocktail program and sort of the martini scene was just starting, starting then it felt special to be part of that the genesis and it was you know we were really sort of building something at the start that wasn't the the company it is now in terms of it's just grown and it's got better and better and better new york was was never a dream in actual fact you know a lot of the ideas and the the the themes we probably lifted from new york and and adopted that into spitalfields at the start you know mac and cheese as a side you know a big big steakhouse with big dictionary thick steaks.

44:06Fermín Núñez:Yeah, yeah. And in 2016, 17, we were looking at branching out and exploring and people always ask me about why expansion and it's exciting. It's progressive, it's ambitious, it keeps the team energized, kept me there for many, many years because it was something really compelling to be part of and a challenge. You know, it was never going to be easy. and I was lucky enough to be sent to Hong Kong for four months in 2014 to sort of test the water and the reason for going east was because we would never had the confidence to look at New York and the home of a steakhouse bringing it there and bringing it here but we did get a few opportunities we looked at a few sites and then we found the site on Gramercy in 22nd and Park and nearly eight, nine years ago the 4th of April I was on a one-way ticket and landed in New York to do all the reconnaissance and set up the company and start building a site.

44:58Fermín Núñez:And that was nine years ago.

45:00Jorge Gaviria:Yeah, it's incredible, the success of this import to America. And it's so interesting that you say that you were taking influence from like Peter Luger and some of the New York City steakhouses when you were running this Hawksmoor in Spitalfield. And you come back here and you have a little bit of British polish and a different style. When you opened Hawksmoor here, what was so British about it?

45:23Fermín Núñez:Well, I think we tried to underplay that. We just wanted to be a really, really good restaurant. You know, New York is the stiff competition. And we didn't want to sort of project the Britishness down, you know, into all the PR and into the comms because, you know, New York doesn't need another steakhouse. It just needs another very, very good restaurant. And we wanted to just come and join the party. And I use that line because does New York need another pizzeria or a steakhouse? It does if it's good and wants to come and, you know, get humbled and meet the right people and ingratiate yourself to the city.

45:54Fermín Núñez:And so part of my mission for the first couple of years was just getting really under the skin of the city and the scene, meet the right people and learn and be humble. Like, yes, we had a big company in the UK doing very well, but that doesn't mean anything here. If anything, it's actually a bit more like, well, why would we care?

46:11Jorge Gaviria:In fact, it's a challenge being the import to New York or Los Angeles. It's the two cities that don't really take imports that well. Completely. Outsiders.

46:18Fermín Núñez:And one of the questions we ask clients with my company, Nylon Exchange, is, humbly, why would New York care about your excellent restaurant in London? You know, it may be the best of the best, but it's not to put them down. It's just to interrogate their reasoning as to why they're thinking of expanding. And to also reframe what is negotiable and what's non-negotiable about bringing their baby from London, Europe, wherever it may be, to New York, because they haven't thought of it like that. They've thought, build it, they will come. And actually, you need to just adapt it. You need to learn and change.

46:48Fermín Núñez:And back to your question about Hawksmoor, we were very resolute in some of our style of service, some of our thinking, some of the way we wanted the company to be built and the way that we looked after people and employees. But of course, we had to change portion sizes. We had to change the way that the steaks were described on the menu from grams to ounces. So there are subtle differences that you just have to get on board with by relocating to the US.

47:11Jorge Gaviria:Well, this was the whole point of inviting you in many ways is this kind of transfer of energy between London and New York, and you named your company, basically the exchange, Nylon Exchange, which I think is really clever. You know, we're in the past decade, but particularly post-pandemic, you know, there's been just this boom in British culture in New York and America writ large. I think some people think that the two cities, New York and London, are just are the same with just different accents. But you can articulate differently, I believe. You know, when you're talking to these operators in London about moving to the States.

47:49Jorge Gaviria:What do you tell them? Like, what's the straight dope that you're telling them?

47:54Fermín Núñez:Well, it's a really fascinating conversation, really, because there's many reasons why. Commercial, ambition, appetite. You could do good business in the U.S. New York particularly is an incredible home to the industry, and it's forward-thinking, it's accessible, it's challenging, and there's no reason why you wouldn't want to come to New York. come and join the party of the restaurants over here. But when we do interrogate with owners and operators, it's first of all commercial. It's does the business do well in the UK?

48:23Jorge Gaviria:Is it strong enough to stand a translation of a brand,

48:26Fermín Núñez:the investment needed, the time and the patience? And on the patience piece, I was here for two and a half years before we opened Hawksmoor. And that time of bedding in and learning how not to do things or to do things and meeting Jess and Annie and other people in the industry, a lot of people don't have that time. A lot of people will find a site, build it, and think it will all fall into place. And that's a real mistake because New York deserves the respect it has. It's a place you can get it wrong very expensively. And so when we do engage with clients in London who are really excited about the prospect, there's also a bit of a process of just interrogating their P &L, interrogating the board and the owner's decision to do it.

49:04Fermín Núñez:I'm sure a lot of it's New York's fun.

49:06Jorge Gaviria:We want to come and join the party. I mean, ego, come on. You're like putting a Park Avenue address on your business card in London says a lot. back in London. It completely, completely does.

49:16Fermín Núñez:And you can get it wrong. We've got all, everyone knows the horror stories, but you can also get it right. And why we saw an opportunity was to help people get it right. And with our business as well, we have, we've turned businesses down, but that we didn't think were at the right stage of their evolution to warrant. You've turned people down. Yeah, we've looked at P &Ls and said, we just don't think you're strong enough yet. And we would lose you money, you would lose money, but we are the platform to help when you've got the bandwidth, the resources to do it. And also comes back to that question about why would New York care?

49:49Fermín Núñez:Do we think the brand is individual and strong enough and commercially viable enough to make it? And that's where we want to partner with people. And we don't want to just do project management and short-term projects. We want to partner with businesses and help them launch into the U.S. and then grow them here and vice versa. We've got people looking at London from New York as well.

50:08Jorge Gaviria:Well, yeah, that's the whole exchange part of it. I'll get to that. But what's the structure for your business? Is it like a management fee? Are you taking percentages? How does that work when you work with these partners? Exactly.

50:18Fermín Núñez:And there's loads of different ways you can carve up the cake. Our ideal structure is sort of a joint venture. You know, we want to put money in. We want the operator to put money in because then there's a commitment from both sides. We also then would take a management fee. And then with that, we can then grow. And then we would oversee and be the client and owners representatives here in the U.S. and what we're giving is sort of eight nine years plus some partners that that that head start you know if you take matt's restaurant in london coming here today and wanting to open that will take 12 months minimum but then you've also got 12 months to learn to to develop the concept to change all of the way that you do business and the supply chain and that takes a long time or as we can you know cherry pick the brand and then really fast track you to opening and be your long-term partners so that after the opening, you know that you've got safe hands and reassurance with boots on the ground here to then facilitate it after opening and after launch when the real work really starts because, you know, the openings, you know, the sort of the grand surprise and the grand announcement.

51:20Fermín Núñez:After that, you've got to have a sustainable business.

51:22Jorge Gaviria:You've got to have the goods. And let's talk about real estate. Are you just educating your clients on New York City real estate like all the time?

51:28Fermín Núñez:Well, we've got a good list of brokers. I will never ever pretend to be a real estate broker, but a broker will find the site, but we've then got to see if it fits. Well, that's the thing, like the concept and making sure that it's the right neighborhood. Completely right neighborhood, the community board for a liquor license in New York. You've got multiple different wards. That process itself can be 12 to 18 months. Turning on gas, you know, we all know about turning on gas in New York can be a real challenge. And we've been there and done it. You know, we've made loads of mistakes. We've gone backwards, forwards, sideways, and we're here to offer people that experience as well and really open some fantastic venues in New York, which it deserves it and there'll always be room for.

52:08Jorge Gaviria:Well, speaking of venues, I'm just going to talk about some restaurants that have opened here or will be opening here. Dishoom, Ginkana, Cricket, Ambassadors Clubhouse. I mean, these are openings or will be opened in the past 12 months and it's really, really a boom here in New York and we'll talk about Dean's as well. Is this like a moment right now, do you feel, for like these imports of these big, like, chinkana? That was a huge, huge news.

52:32Fermín Núñez:It feels like it, but it's always been there. I think, in our humble opinion, many years ago, people have come to New York and desperately tried and opened restaurants from the UK and from everywhere. There was a real peak moment when I was opening Hawksworth in 2019, 2020, that people were really excited. So we're going to see how we fared. and then very quickly the door shut, you know, for obvious reasons from 2020 to 24, there was a lot of, it was quiet in the restaurant scene. It was all about survival rather than expansion. And then in 24, 25 and increasingly so in 26, the conversations are really picked back up again.

53:11Fermín Núñez:I think there's lots of excitement. People have looked East, people have looked, you know, to the Middle East and people have looked West in terms of if they want to be upwardly mobile and they've got a brand that they think can scale and do some business, business, then New York is the launchpad. It's a tough place to do business for restaurants and it's a huge competition, but the doors can open for the rest of the US as well.

53:32Jorge Gaviria:Yeah, that's the thing. I think when you open in New York or Las Vegas, it opens up the rest of the country. If you show success there, it really expands. It makes a lot of sense. I mean, do you think these are going to work, these brands? I mean, the restaurant failure rate is still quite high and the capital behind these restaurants is very high in operating costs. These aren't small openings.

53:54Fermín Núñez:They're not. I wish them all the best. Them coming over proves that nylon could be a thing and is going to be a thing. But again, they are standout restaurants in London. They're standout businesses as well. I think it's important to say that the economics do work and the way they look after their teams. They are solid, solid growing businesses. And of course, they're looking to expand and explore. If I was one of the employees at any of these companies, I'd be incredibly excited because I went to the Ambassador's Club opening and I met the team that had been moved over for training and they get a month in New York.

54:27Fermín Núñez:They were absolutely buzzing off the experience of living in New York, opening some of them have never been. You know, that in itself, beyond the commercial aspect and for a team, for a company that you're growing with your business to reinvest in your people, coming up in a restaurant in New York is one way to really build retention beyond building your business.

54:44Jorge Gaviria:Very, very well said. I think for retaining labor, like management suite, so to speak opening up overseas is just a great way to retain talent like yourself at hawksmore absolutely you stuck with the group because they sent you to new york i'm sure if you were still at spitalfields you might not have even stayed up no of course and you know it's maybe

55:05Fermín Núñez:a bit of a fool's mission in terms of going and thinking we could we could make a success of it but we worked tirelessly to make it a success and a lot of people you know were waiting to see how hawks more fed and quite rightly so and it was a huge risk it took a lot of time a lot of money a lot of patience and that commitment there which i think is another question we ask operators is it's nice to have your restaurant on park avenue south or madison how committed are you to it yeah and what happens when it doesn't go quite right at the start and you'll need to change things or learn or you have to adapt things which with your brand in the uk you might not be so flexible but I'm glad we did because it's, you know, New York is a phenomenal city, deserves as many good restaurants as it can possibly have.

55:49Fermín Núñez:And, you know, we were humbled when we could open.

55:52Jorge Gaviria:Is the idea of the pivot like almost fully American when it comes to restaurants? You're kind of implying that in the UK maybe changes is a little bit slower with restaurant operations.

56:01Fermín Núñez:No, I don't think so. I think they're both equally brilliant in their own different ways. Yeah, yeah. I think New York is definitely upwardly energetic, infectious. is what I feel when I see the skyline and get back into the city. London is very safe and reliable. And people always ask me the similarities and the differences. And my stock answer is they just don't challenge each other in my headspace. I love them both equally. Their course has got lots of complementary skill sets and lots of differences. But I feel very fortunate and very lucky to have both in my life.

56:34Jorge Gaviria:Yeah, I wasn't about to ask that, by the way. Other hosts would ask that. By the way, Ambassadors Club, I missed the opening event, but I tried to hit the bat phone last night, literally. And they were very polite, my contacts. But they were like, they're going through the wait list. And you check back in a month. I'm like, that's rad. Good for them that they have this wait list there. It seems like a special place.

56:59Fermín Núñez:It is. And JKS is a great company in the UK. And I've had the pleasure of meeting the team there. They actually were part of the genesis of Nylon when we were opening Nylon. I spent many times and days with them just extracting a P &L from London and New York and giving them some comparisons. And they were very intently interested in our journey. And so them coming to New York, it just adds more weight to this sort of transatlantic relationship.

57:29Jorge Gaviria:Yeah. Well, let's talk about your collaboration with Annie, Jess, and Claire. I mean, you're working with arguably one of the strongest and buzziest restaurant groups in New York right now. I mean, King made New York's top 10. I adore Stissinghouse. We know about Leigh Wine Bar with Annie's new projects there. And even if they're all not fully connected, just that group. And, of course, Jess here with Deans. I mean, this is such a talented core. How did you link up with them, and what's your role there now?

57:58Fermín Núñez:Yeah, it's such an honor and such a privilege to work with them all. Well, I met Jess three weeks after landing on a flight, one-way ticket from London, as I said. and was very, very loyal guests, customers, patrons of King. It was a special occasion restaurant. It was the restaurant that we took our parents to when they visited. And so we became friends very early on and they would come to Hawksmoor and it was such a lovely sort of organic growth between admiring them as professionals and friends and as chefs. But they'd also built what we were trying to build. You know, the relationship was so, it went both ways.

58:38Fermín Núñez:And they were always doing exciting new projects with Jupiter opening and Stissinghouse as well. And just being in their orbit is infectious. Just being around that quality of food. And when I trained as a chef, I was in Italy. So I've always resonated with that food really closely. And then new openings. and in 2024, I was in the UK, gave my green card and they were like, well, we've got some projects coming up. We'd love to get you on board in a sort of operational capacity and sort of help them bridge the gap between ownership and ops. And I think that's a really interesting opportunity because ownership are always on multiple different projects, different skill sets and different loves and passions and interests, food or wine.

59:24Fermín Núñez:And operations and heads of ops or director of ops, whatever you want to call it, sit in a very unique position of having to influence food drink, renew service, as well as managing owners and managing the daily operators on the front line, the ECs and the GMs. And so I sort of slot in there to really just support them. You know, they're already doing phenomenal things. Number six, my timing was pretty lucky joining the company and then, you know, six months later becoming number six in the New York Times.

59:52Jorge Gaviria:Yeah. I mean, but you know, Jupiter had struggles, tough real estate. I think on the culinary side, they had some stumbles out of the gate and you clearly helped them turn that around. I've not been back in years but i've heard much better things coming out of that kitchen and i mean what's your day like when you're when you're working within this group amongst all these

1:00:10Fermín Núñez:different properties yeah well then we'll get on to dean so good a little sort of anecdote about uh or d uh jupiter was you know they've got the pnl they've got the team working tirelessly but just really scrutinizing the pnl really going through that and i said to jess and annie within the first couple of weeks, I was like, flower budget. Can I change this? And so overnight, I sort of made myself cost neutral by changing a few of the operational expenses on the P &L, which the GM didn't necessarily feel empowered or that they could change. And the ownership were very keen on that. And I was like, well, yeah, you're running a great business, but we can't afford that line of this.

1:00:48Fermín Núñez:And so, of course, they asked for permission. You know, you're never going to change things without ownership and operational approval. But just Just slowly, you could then turn what was already a great business, but into a more of a sustainable business. And bridging the gap between the day-to-day operators and ownership and being the conduit and making recommendations, that was one of the biggest sort of the wins that we had.

1:01:08Jorge Gaviria:Flowers is definitely a great concrete example, but I have to imagine labor was a big part of scrutinizing the P &L. So are you going into the restaurant, speaking with the key members, maybe not even the key members, and making some tough decisions?

1:01:21Fermín Núñez:Absolutely. Yeah. A lot of it's looking backwards in terms of reporting, and a lot of it's looking forward in terms of trading. You've got to be nimble in this day and age of live data. Who's looking at it, and what decisions are they making on it? And let's be honest, restaurants and chefs and operators don't get into this to look at spreadsheets and look at toast and look at EPOS and all these things daily. They look at it to look after people, to work with food and wine. But someone has to. Someone actually has to look at, oh, that's a top seller, but it makes us no money. That's not selling, but we're keeping it on the menu and it takes three days to prep.

1:01:54Fermín Núñez:Just make some simple edits to that, makes the team more efficient, spending less on labor and you can spend your money from the flower budget. You can spend more money on olive oil. You know, I said that to Jess. I was like, let's half the flower budget. So you go every three weeks, not one week. And you can spend more on your beautiful Fontodi olive oil. And so you make beautiful decisions that don't ruin the nucleus of the business. And I think that's what I really enjoy about my job is you'd never want to go into King and say, we're going to buy impasta. That would ruin everything that they've built.

1:02:26Fermín Núñez:But you need to look around the edges about somewhere and to some of the points that won't ruin what the DNA is and what makes that restaurant so special. But you want to make it sustainable. And those are the recommendations I make.

1:02:39Jorge Gaviria:I feel more restaurants need a Tommy Hunt in their life. That's very kind. It's like this is an essential role. And many do have like a head of ops who look at the P &Ls and speak with ownership who want to do more of the creative vision and the media stuff. And of course, the recipe development. When you're looking at a staff and you're looking to make cuts or even add, let's just talk about like the human element. What are you looking for employees at restaurants right now?

1:03:05Fermín Núñez:It's a very sociable industry. It's you can make some great friends and there are great skills. But it is hard. It's long hours. And so you're looking for a dedication, you're looking for a passion and a commitment. And I think governments actually have quite a lot to get involved with here because it is an industry that can absolutely provide security, support, training, development from cooks up to management and beyond. and I think we're looking for ambition, we're looking for hard work, we're looking for genuine care and empathy from all teams. And once you find those rare, not necessarily rare, but those real qualities in individuals, you just want an environment where they can thrive.

1:03:47Fermín Núñez:And the pressure on P &Ls and budgets and people does it a disservice because it takes the heart and soul about what we do, which is fundamentally feeding people. You know, we are in entertainment. I think it's quite important that we remember that we are in an entertainment industry, which is harder in these times when all the pressures are on cost. It's about margins. It's about losing headcount and making people do more with less. But we know what happens to those businesses. You know, if private equity gets too much in, you can then reduce the quality of the product. You can then reduce the portion size.

1:04:23Fermín Núñez:It's not hard to have to look at our business and make more money, but then how long that business is going to last for is a real issue. Yeah, people will churn out of your group very quickly if it's not fun. Yeah. And the one challenge I think is really worth flagging is in New York, the incentive to become a manager is hard. You know, the tipping culture here means that for a server, you could be earning more than a junior manager. So our job, and I think the institution and the Alliance's job in New York and the U.S. in general, is how do we motivate people to go up the career ladder, to become a server, to become a head server, captain, and then to be a floor manager, because that's a very UK model.

1:05:03Fermín Núñez:And so I used to be blessed with managers who wanted the next step, and we'd only promote from within the Hawksmoor where we could. And in New York, we've had the challenge of wanting people to get into managers who are absolutely destined to be great GMs and great head chefs, who could go on and do multi-site, but they're only more as a server than they would as a junior manager.

1:05:24Jorge Gaviria:Yeah, and also there's benefits come into play too. completely you know and um i talked to cammy marcus about this and i know this is a little off script but i do want to ask you about when you moved here nine years ago and you started looking at payroll tax what did you think about our system with payroll tax and specifically how payroll tax affects restaurants in a very unique way yeah because restaurants are so labor intensive for the square footage. That's a great episode, Camilla, I'll link to it. There's a lot of reasons why it's pretty fucked up.

1:06:00Fermín Núñez:Yeah, it's definitely challenging. What would be a big observation to make when we first arrived was number of hours a week, 40 hours a week here. Anything over is overtime apart from management. In management, you can work many hours. So if you're a server on 39 hours and you're earning more than a manager doing 50, 60, that is a real challenge that's a challenge just to motivate people but also to retain them beyond the cost you know no a good restaurant will pay for an excellent manager and will pay for any individual that is working hard high performing high achieving and is developing that we would want to retain you know that's just good good people management and good business but if you've got one part of your workforce on 39 hours the other half on 60 and there's a disconnect between the pay structure that's that's the challenge um and of course tipping here is is wildly different um i always love to talk about how it incentivizes teams but if it doesn't incentivize team and there's a there's a disconnect between what a line cook could make versus a server then that's a challenge for the gm and the teams the management team to to manage the different you know departments and how they're feeling about person x getting getting this and person y getting something else.

1:07:12Fermín Núñez:And already it's hard to manage a restaurant. It's so many moving parts. Every day is a different team sheet. You have call outs, operational challenges, different servers, different customers every night. Doing that with a team that's necessarily not on the same team sheet and has different pay and different responsibilities. You make it a real challenge for junior managers to A, want that, but also then be good at it.

1:07:35Jorge Gaviria:All right, let's move on to Dean's. I'm really curious about this opening, a British pub in the West Village, named after a Cornish fisherman. How does a pub become a serious restaurant in New York City? The name pub, it kind of plays a little bit in contrast.

1:07:54Fermín Núñez:Yeah. Well, the term pub is, the origins of it is a public house you know it's it's a house it's a home it's a community it's accessible um you use the word serious there which is an interesting one because i think i think restaurants can be serious i think they should be and bars can be serious i also really truly believe that they can be too serious for sure i think i think a pub is where you know where you'd go for a pint with a newspaper you'd go for 10 pints and watch the sport with your friends it's it's it can be divisive because it's so many things to so many different people that i think what we're trying to do with dean's is it's an ode to a pub like is the building 300 years old and did william shakespeare go there no uh is it in greenwich you know all these facets which probably make a historic traditional pub you know it's not it's going to have all those elements and i think We are striving in the more serious ways just to be brilliant at the food, which it will be with Jess, but to be unintimidating, to be open, warm all day.

1:09:03Fermín Núñez:We're not taking any reservations, so that's going to be a real interesting challenge. Zero. Zero, apart from maybe you.

1:09:10Jorge Gaviria:Okay.

1:09:10Fermín Núñez:But we're a small site, only 40 seats, so once we're open all day Saturday and Sunday, hopefully it'll just be a free-for-all and people will be able to spill in and treat it like a house or a public house. That isn't maybe traditional in its 200-year-old wooden placards on the wall and rickety furniture. It's still serious in the food and the drinks and the service, but it's also welcoming and accessible.

1:09:35Jorge Gaviria:And it sounds from the early press, and you can correct me if that's incorrect, the price point, you're trying to keep the prices slightly down.

1:09:43Fermín Núñez:Always in New York. It's a constant struggle and battle to make sure that you're serving the best quality you possibly can with some of the products that are quite labor-intensive as well at a price point that doesn't, you know, get people to raise their eyebrows. But of course, absolutely, the whole point of being about an accessible pub is that it's a lot of things to a lot of people. Yeah. And you can't do that if you've got, you know, $400 lobster on the menu. Yeah, yeah. So pints are going to be at a good price? Absolutely. At this point, I'm made of Guinness after being testing it for the last two weeks and making sure the temperature's right, Yeah.

1:10:20Fermín Núñez:The glasses are cleaned correctly. You split that G? I'm getting really good at it. But I don't know whether that's a good habit or a bad habit that I need to sort of curtail to more of the weekends. Are you putting yourself on the schedule to work shifts? Well, we did friends and family Thursday, Friday, Saturday. So I was there all of that last week.

1:10:38Jorge Gaviria:Working the floor, back in the floor.

1:10:39Fermín Núñez:Working the floor, just ironing out all the kinks between kitchen and floor. Yeah, yeah. Making sure that we are operationally set up. And then also financially viable from day one. We need to be able to see the metrics, see what it's costing us. A 12-month build is a big commitment from us as the company. We've had loads of challenges with having to move the kitchen a few times and just redefine things.

1:11:05Jorge Gaviria:Wow.

1:11:06Fermín Núñez:Low key.

1:11:07Jorge Gaviria:Interesting situation.

1:11:08Fermín Núñez:Yeah. But we wanted a kitchen that was able to do the job. It's an open kitchen as well, so you can look into it. And Jess is, we've imported an Argo, which is an old British farmhouse style of cooking. That'll be great when we do Sunday roast, like overnight lamb shoulder.

1:11:24Jorge Gaviria:So fun to have Argo with that. It's great. It is. That's really, really cool to hear that. What about the non-alcoholic beer situation? Are you doing some NAs?

1:11:32Fermín Núñez:Yeah, Annie's got a great mocktail list, and she's got some great options there. And we will also, again, from day one, we'll evolve. We'll see how people try to treat the space that we'll dictate. If they want some more options, we will, of course, ensure that we are catering for everybody.

1:11:47Jorge Gaviria:We'll get just on the show when the restaurant's been open and I visit and we can chat about all the food. But Tommy, just give us a little bit about the menu right now, preview the menu.

1:11:56Fermín Núñez:Well, some real classics. So pork scratchings, so a real pub snack that used to sort of hang behind the bar in pubs in the UK. Just basically really, really beautiful pig skin. And then it's just roasted in the oven, so it starts cracking. And it gets to the point where you can snap it. Lots of sea salt, a little bit of a spice rub on it. So a little orchard sauce, so apple, quince, just a little chutney. We're desperate to put on a pint of prawns. So we have these little dimple mugs, and you get prawns in them with a little aioli. So it's all hands, get a bit messy. That's like the shrimp cocktail of the UK?

1:12:30Fermín Núñez:It is, yeah, completely. And it's a staple on the coastal region. So Jess is for Essex. I've got family in Cornwall, and then that's where you'd go for that. Fish and chips, of course. We've worked tirelessly. It's not a new dish at all. It has lots of fans and it has lots of critics. And we have worked with a dear chef friend of mine and a colleague at Hawksmoor to do triple-cooked chips to find some really quality fish and batter to do that. And we will launch that in the next couple of weeks. But it's going to be a really – we're going to have to make sure it's excellent.

1:13:05Jorge Gaviria:I mean, Dame is going to have to watch his back, it feels.

1:13:09Fermín Núñez:Dame does a pretty good fish and chips. It does. And they were one of the first, but there's more than enough room for a few different fish.

1:13:16Jorge Gaviria:You ever go to Chip Shop on Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn? No, but I'll add it to that. I'm around the corner. I feel that one, it may not be with us anymore. I think it probably is gone, but that was an old favorite. What is it about this British pub culture that has really popped up in the States? I mean, I look at the Bell in New Orleans from Brooks Reitz and Wilds in Los Angeles was a new opening and by all means one of L.A.'s buzziest restaurants.

1:13:45Fermín Núñez:It's a really pertinent point. They are sort of wonderful establishments. I think they're real institutions. And I think they sort of bend the rule, really. I think everyone's got, you know, we talk about brunch, breakfast, lunch and dinner. Pubs don't have that. Pubs are open from 11 till 11 or 11 till midnight if you can get a later license. You've got many different iterations of them from sports bars to dive bars. Are they pubs classically? I would say yes and no. I don't think anyone owns that territory. But they're familiar. They're local. They're neighborhood. They are that real sense of community, which I think restaurants have.

1:14:25Fermín Núñez:But sometimes they make it a little bit harder to get into. Or the wine list might be a bit more challenging. or the menu might be a bit more challenging. Pubs you can go to five times a day for different reasons. I'm going back to the UK in a couple of weeks. I'll probably spend every day at some point in a pub for either half a pint with a friend, bit of food, before a theatre, before a football match. And I think the US loves that too. That culture of meeting in somewhere quite low-lived. I think there's also the accessibility point is key. And you mentioned about non-Alcan people who aren't drinking.

1:14:59Fermín Núñez:No, you can go there for book clubs. You can go there for quizzes. You can go and play snooker, pool, play darts. It doesn't have to be about the food and drink. And I think that's probably why the design, the aesthetic, and the way that they're set up is probably really just having a real surge moment. But it's not new.

1:15:16Jorge Gaviria:It's been around for years. You catching some Fulham matches when you're back home?

1:15:19Fermín Núñez:I'm hoping to. I watch it 10 a.m. on Saturday and Sunday in Brooklyn, which I would love to be back in. Do you have a pub that you watch in? Is there like a Fulham bar? There's a number, yeah. The crab tree on the river is a special one. And it's right by the river, so you've got a beautiful view of the Thames.

1:15:35Jorge Gaviria:Yeah, yeah, I love that. On This Is Taste, we asked Gus about the discerning tastes. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid-fire fast and furious taste check. Are you ready?

1:15:42Fermín Núñez:Oh, yes, go, let's go. The best fruit? Best fruit? Oh, English summer berries, like a need-to-measher in a summer pudding, something like that. So good. The worst vegetable?

1:15:55Fermín Núñez:Oh, being a chef, controversially, I like all vegetables, but I think the worst veg is when they've been boiled to death in unsalted water. Oh, yeah, right. Just that smell. Yeah, yeah. Salt your water, guys. Salt your water. Ice it. What's your typical breakfast? Oh, so probably a bit extreme. Monday to Friday, healthy yogurt, oats, fruit. Saturday, Sunday, fried breakfast or a bacon sandwich. What did you think about the bacon, egg, and cheese when you first landed in New York? Love it. I find bagels delicious. They're quite hefty. Yeah, yeah. It's quite a lot there. But yeah, if I get back to the UK for Saturday and Sunday, a full English.

1:16:31Fermín Núñez:If my heart's all right, I'll go for a full English. Love that. The best dessert. Oh, can I have two? Yeah, sure. It's got to be the sticky toffee pudding from Hawks. I want to shout out to Carla.

1:16:43Jorge Gaviria:Yeah.

1:16:43Fermín Núñez:And then another sort of self-num would be, well, self-num, but it's not, is the King chocolate tart.

1:16:50Jorge Gaviria:Very classic. Love that dish. Is there going to be a sticky toffee in Dean's menu?

1:16:54Fermín Núñez:There's going to be versions of, yeah. We're coming into spring, So we've got to sort of balance the menu quite – with lighter options. But there is a syrup pudding on the menu at the moment.

1:17:01Jorge Gaviria:That's interesting because you are opening into spring into summer. So it's an interesting time. We think of pubs as being heavier, maybe wintry. Yeah. It's a year-round – It is.

1:17:10Fermín Núñez:And then also next door we're opening King Cafe again. So we're going to – and that's – it's a real sun trap on that 6th Avenue corner. It's a lovely place to go and do work. If anyone can have a coffee there and then move into Dean's for a pint. Love that. In America when you're craving fast food, where are you going? In America? Oh, Otty, my wife, she'll have a McDonald's breakfast every day if she could. I'm more of a Five Guys kind of guy. Yeah, yeah. I just like a bigger burger, a bit more in it.

1:17:37Jorge Gaviria:I really respect the take. You are making me go retry Five Guys. I've never, I haven't been in like maybe 10 years. Yeah. But you know a burger, having worked at Hawksmoor forever. I do love a burger, yeah. I'm going to give it a shot. Tommy, you're inspiring me. If you could bring a restaurant back from the dead, what would it be?

1:17:55Fermín Núñez:Oh, what was it? When we used to live in Williamsburg, a place called Extra Fancy. It wasn't fancy. It was brilliantly not. But beer and shots at midnight, like bucket of ice cold beers, oysters at midnight. Great. And then they did this thing called lobster bisque fries. So basically a poutine with lobster pieces and lobster bisque on top. Absolutely delicious. And they play blues music all night until 3 a.m. So that's where we used to get locked in. I reviewed that restaurant back in the day.

1:18:26Jorge Gaviria:I love that restaurant. I know. I bring it back. Great, great call. Your favorite city in the world to visit for food?

1:18:34Fermín Núñez:Oh, well, I was lucky enough to be a chef in Florence. So I'd have to say Florence, hands down. You know, just it's the markets, sitting outside. Just all of it is pretty special. I know it's very popular in the US. So hopefully I'll have a lot of supporters. But yeah, Florence for me.

1:18:51Jorge Gaviria:If you go in February, though, you can have some great food there.

1:18:54Fermín Núñez:Well, September. It's my favorite month there.

1:18:56Jorge Gaviria:September is a great, but American tour is lots there, but September is amazing.

1:18:59Fermín Núñez:Yeah, no, it's a special city. And it's small enough to walk around. You can get straight out into the countryside. You know, you can get to Venice in two hours. You can get to Rome in two and a half. It's a little, well, as I said, I was lucky enough to be a chef there for six months. That's so great. A place in my heart. Last one, your favorite sandwich. Can I do two? Can I do a London one and a New York one? Yeah, I like it, Tommy. That's great. Let's do New York chicken palm from Brooklyn. that I just it's huge but it's just delicious the red sauce but I could probably have one a whole one I'd have it for like two days and then the UK wow probably ham and cheese on Plowman's with Branson pickle real classic thick farmhouse white bread slathered in butter salted butter as well salted butter

1:19:47Jorge Gaviria:I'll take number two we're going to have five guys as well we're going to have a whole day of eating a whole day of eating Tommy Hunt This has been so much fun. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thanks so much for having me.

1:20:01Jorge Gaviria:This Is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy Logo design by Ellie Skirzat and Ian Dingham Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com And make sure to subscribe to our newsletter To keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste