775: La Copine Built an Oasis in Joshua Tree. The Crowds Followed.

20:07Claire Wadsworth:I really love that. And when I was reading the La Copine cookbook, you were writing about the ways that the existing infrastructure of the building impacted what you put on the menu. I felt like that also was really cool because there are some people who would probably, you know, try to get a specific appliance so they can do this one dream dish as opposed to like seeing what you have and then working from there. We spend a lot of time on the show thinking about what we put into our bodies. The perfect olive oil to saute those farmer's market vegetables, or the latest cult yogurt brand that promises optimal gut health.

20:40Claire Wadsworth:We think deeply about what we consume, but often ignore something completely. Our mental health. Rula fixes this. They're a healthcare company that works with over 100 insurance plans, so the average copay is just$15 a session. $15. They match you with licensed therapists based on your actual goals and needs, not just whoever's available. And appointments can happen as soon as tomorrow. Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high-quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance. Visit Rula.com slash taste to get started. That's R-U-L-A dot com slash taste. You deserve mental health care that works for you, not against your budget.

21:24Claire Wadsworth:This episode is brought to you by Wayfair. I've been thinking a lot about outdoor cooking lately. I've updated my backyard smoker and had my eyes on an Aaron Franklin recipe that I want to tackle. I've also been thinking about my outdoor furniture setup. That's what got me on Wayfair. I found exactly what I was looking for. A table that matched the vibe and came in at a really good price. And with over 20 million verified 5-star reviews, it means you're not guessing. And Wayfair Verified takes it even further. Their product specialists hand that everything through a 10-point quality inspection.

21:59Claire Wadsworth:Real confidence, no matter your budget. There's outdoor seating, lighting, rugs, storage. It's all there. Get prepped for patio season for way less. Head to Wayfair.com now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com. Wayfair. Every style, every home. And I was wondering if you could speak to, like, what were some of the early dishes on the menu that you think were kind of formative to making La Copine the restaurant that it is today?

22:29Nikki Hill:I would say the beignets. We walked through the building and the first thing we noticed was two giant fryers. So we said, okay, what can we do that comes out of a fryer that's not just what you expect? That could be like, when you think of the word La Copine, like something French and something light and delicate and sexy, but a little bit indulgent. Nikki said, growing Growing up in Utah, we used to make fry bread. That was one of the first things you learned how to cook in home ec, right? I mean, I have a memory of kindergarten, which seems too young to use a little fry daddy. But I feel like it was in kindergarten with assistance.

23:08Nikki Hill:You know, here kids use a fryer. But I love that. So fry bread. And your sister is vegan and a lifelong vegetarian vegan. And Nikki was like, well, maybe we could make beignets, but do them vegan so that everyone can eat them. Because, you know, when you arrive in Joshua Tree, there is this like, of course, there's the rock climbers and there's the cowboys. But there's also like the bohemian and like the, you know, the vegans and like all the like healthy people. And they are a lot of them are vegan. So we knew we would have to appeal to everyone. So the first dish we came up with was beignets, and we decided to make them vegan but not announce that they were vegan.

23:56Nikki Hill:We just said, we'll just put them on the menu but not put a little asterisk next to it that says, these are vegan. We would just tell people when they came in and said, what can I eat? But after that, you saw the griddle. Yeah, the griddle for sure is the central piece of the kitchen. And it's, you know, in my past experience cooking, I love a plancha slash griddle. It's something that I always have. I'll bring a griddle camping. So looking at that and wanting to make as much as we could from scratch, knowing we only had one oven, we were like, oh, we could make English muffins. That's like a surface cooked bread that we could make a breakfast sandwich with.

24:36Nikki Hill:as well as, you know, in our food cart days, we made sausage from scratch. So we were like, oh, we could fry eggs, put a sausage patty, cook the English muffins all from scratch. So anything that could be cooked on a griddle, hand-shredded hash browns. Our early menu was very brunch and small. It was eight dishes. We did a potato. We did an L.A.-ish version of a hash. It's sweet potatoes, kale, a smoky, spicy chutney, avocado fried egg. That's like appeals to the L.A. crowd. So we were kind of going with the, you know, traditional breakfast brunch, but keeping it so the locals that don't want anything too frilly and people from L.A.

25:25Nikki Hill:could kind of both be satisfied. where that's kind of where our menu always lies is keeping things identifiable classic comfort but bringing you know the flavor to a place that people don't expect totally and the reason why

25:43Claire Wadsworth:we're talking about la and joshua tree is that like la is what like a two-hour drive depending on where you are in the city from joshua tree and a lot of people come out on the weekends to stay there but then you also have this community of locals who want to come and eat at the restaurant as well.

25:57Nikki Hill:Right. And we people crave those diner dishes and we knew that the locals would kind of have a comparison there. So we wanted some familiarity, but definite for a lot of people. It's like, wow, I never tasted something like this, but it's in an identifiable dish. Yeah.

26:16Claire Wadsworth:I feel like one of the things I remember really being struck by a la copine is the kind of like opulent salads that you have on the menu. And that's because maybe I'm from the LA contingent. But I also was wondering, like, there isn't a farmer's market out there as far as I know. I wasn't even sure if, like, Baldor delivered. Like, how do you handle the kind of produce sourcing aspect, especially coming from working in restaurants in L.A. when you were, you know, close to the biggest farmer's markets in the country?

26:42Nikki Hill:Yeah, I mean, so. It was hard. It was very hard. It was really hard. And it's something we do talk about in the book, being able to use regular grocery store produce and make it shine. because it is a really beautiful and privileged thing to live in places where you have a farmer's market to shop for. And there is a farmer's market in Joshua Tree. It happens to be on Saturdays while we're open. So it was never really a time that we could just be like, we're going shopping. We're working every Saturday, the two of us. And what we did at the beginning, we didn't have, you know, financial credit to even have purveyors.

27:20Nikki Hill:So we went and shopped ourselves. And this is where it's like you can really be intentional on what you are buying and give people healthy food that feels seasonal. But you can do that from a grocery store. so we memorized all the prices from every grocery store in town and also brought a giant cooler to Costco in Palm Desert and did our own shopping for the first year until we had established enough work credit I guess to reach out to purveyors to start bringing us stuff and that's when we contacted Rocker Brothers, who is a meat purveyor that I loved working with in LA. So they, I had a good relationship with them.

28:08Nikki Hill:And the owner, Sheldon Shelley, was like, I would love to help you out. Let's do this. So they were able to start bringing us meat and fish. And then we had to use Cisco, honestly, for the first year, which, you know, people see a Cisco truck and they just think evil, bad, no. And we're like, it's our only option. But the thing they did have was what they called demand items and even something like butter lettuce bib lettuce fennel bulb fresh fennel was considered like an exclusive item that you had to order two days ahead of time and so that's what we would do we would i would just look at their catalogs of what are the stuff that they are getting that seems you know to align with what we like to make and we had to do that for a few years and just hope it made it they would all often say oh it just didn't come in sorry and then we're running to stores and just trying to figure it out and then a couple years after that la specialty is a that turned into vesta is a specialty produce company they reached out to us saying we noticed your restaurant your menu we think you could work with us were trying to get some accounts in the desert.

29:22Nikki Hill:Would you be the first one? And we were so, so, so excited to finally have an LA-based produce purveyor that shops at the farmers markets in LA and can bring them out to us. And then from there, they stopped coming out during the pandemic. They didn't have enough people wanting to order. And then we joined on with Worldwide Produce is another LA-based produce company. And same thing, they shop at the markets. You can look at their weekly farmer's market list and they have everything we need it's really you mentioned field of dreams

29:53Claire Wadsworth:before but it isn't if you build it they will come like if you are in the desert long enough and more people are starting to open things out there being interested in it then you can have things

30:02Nikki Hill:coming to you finally yeah took a lot of schlepping and yeah we did send like so when we were in the new york times we definitely like sent them articles like some of the purveyors that we wanted to work with we're like hey you know i know you guys still said you're not coming out here but like maybe you'd consider it now after seeing this article like please did it work yes it did yeah and then we said you know slowly by slowly other restaurants and other businesses were starting to open up and we were like we can yeah we would send everyone like whoever was opening a restaurant we're like here's all of our contacts like please work with rocker brother you know work with kai Gourmet, work with LA as a specialty, now Worldwide Produce.

30:47Nikki Hill:Just as a way to get them more accounts and ensure that we would still be able to order from them.

30:53Claire Wadsworth:Yeah, it's interesting because I think there are probably some people who would look at other restaurants opening in this place where, you know, there's just not a lot of places to go eat necessarily and see that as competition. But that doesn't really seem to be in your ethos. I feel like it's more of like if everyone is doing well, then it ensures like long-term security for everybody. Exactly. Yeah.

31:13Nikki Hill:Yeah, we encourage, want, and support restaurants opening around us. We want to eat at places too. Yeah. You know, we're not, we're, there's plenty of visitors and people to go around. Yeah, there's like 5 million people going to Joshua Tree every year. And that number just keeps getting bigger and bigger. Like our first year in the desert, 2015, it was like 1 million. And then by 2019, I think it was like 3. And it's just grown. I mean, since the pandemic, like, it's just, there's so many people coming to eat in five hours. So our service is 11 a.m. to 4 p.m. We'll feed up for over 400 people in five hours at our restaurant that has like a griddle, a grill, two little burners, two giant fryers.

32:04Nikki Hill:And that's it. That's all we're cooking off of. So when people say, you know, how much longer is it going to be? I say do you want to come inside and look at the kitchen I bring them inside I'm like that's my wife you know I'm like we have only so many people that can work here this is the space that we have in our kitchen and then they're like oh okay yeah everything looks great we'll wait we'll keep

32:24Claire Wadsworth:waiting it's just an adjustment of expectations also because um it's not like they could walk

32:30Nikki Hill:across the street and go somewhere yeah they could go to the gas station we've heard the word like starving so many times and it like drives me crazy when people say I'm starving I'm like no you're not you have a car you drove here you could literally go to the gas station like buy some nuts you know i'm like yeah and there are obviously other good places to eat in the extended area yes there's so many options now like at the beginning there wasn't any you know now it's like cool there's a pizza place down the road and you know there's like copper room and um you can go to red dog you can go to tiny pony i mean yeah like there's so many options yeah one place though that was there long before us that people would say okay we can't wait that long where should we go it's this little place in town called yucca kebab it used to be called the hookah lounge and you could get hookahs and do like hookah sessions in the back but it's a turkish family-owned restaurant that's been in the area for much longer than us and like and that the most amazing falafel sandwiches yeah and that's like a go-to place for us yeah if we're in town shopping or even, you know, take out.

33:39Nikki Hill:Yeah. We'll just call it in and bring it home. But in the beginning, that was kind of like, well, if we can't eat here, where do we go? And there was just one place we would suggest where now there's several.

33:51Claire Wadsworth:Yeah.

33:51Nikki Hill:Yeah. And we'll get into

33:52Claire Wadsworth:some of your maybe like rapid fire recs at the end. Okay. Oh, yeah. I want to talk about the book, which is so beautiful. And I'm curious when you first started thinking about making a cookbook and what kind of cookbook you wanted it to be?

34:05Nikki Hill:Yeah, we've always wanted to make a cookbook. Some people don't know this, but we were on an episode of Bizarre Foods with Andrew Zimmern. And the episode was actually pulled, which is kind of crazy. But he did a road trip from Palm Springs to Las Vegas. And after he left our restaurant, he went to a gun range and then went to Vegas. And then the Vegas shooting happened. So they ended up pulling the episode. It only was on air for like a month. And we were like kind of OK with that because we also didn't have that many employees. And we were, you know, saying no to Guy Fieri, you know, because we didn't want to like have so many people come and eat at our restaurant.

34:46Nikki Hill:But something Andrew said to us was, I can see how spread thin you guys are. You need to come up with another like source of revenue for the restaurant in order for it to sustain. He said it doesn't have to be another restaurant. It could be a cookbook. And I looked at Nikki and I was like, oh, we could do like a DIY like punk zine, like spiral bound, like, you know, just do it ourselves, which we still might do. Just handwrite all the recipes and then zero. Totally. But, you know, the idea of putting like a real cookbook together just felt like so far out of reach until David Kuhn, our literary agent, came in to eat at our restaurant.

35:27Nikki Hill:And he came on New Year's Eve with David Haskell from New York Mag and Jack Pearson, an incredible artist who lives in Wonder Valley, and waited two hours to eat at the restaurant. Was not happy about that. But at the end of his meal, he said, I've never waited two hours to eat anywhere in my life, and it was worth every minute. Would you consider making a cookbook? I said, yes, we'd love to, but I don't know where to start. And he said, I'll help you. And we were getting ready to go on our winter break, and he said, what are you doing on your break? I said, we're going to Kern River. We're just going to, like, sit and stare at the river and do nothing.

36:05Nikki Hill:And he said, it's a perfect time to write a book, my dears. And so we just had a bunch of calls with him, and he said, tell me the story. Start from the beginning. And he broke it down for us, and he said, you know, send some recipes. Yeah, why don't you do like four or five sample recipes scaled to home cooks and a, you know, four or five, 20-page, I don't know, back story and get a proposal together. It was like two chapters and then about like 10 recipes. And it was a good proposal. what we put together. And we talked with Abrams. And the minute we got on the call with our editor, Laura Dozier, she was like, I've been to your restaurant.

36:48Nikki Hill:And right away, we knew that she would get it. It's not just a Joshua Tree cookbook. It's not a brunch cookbook. It's a La Cofine cookbook. And she just let us be ourselves and let us tell the story the way that we wanted to. And, you know, for us, it was a way to put the recipes out so that maybe people would move off some of the dishes they were obsessed with. You know, we've been open for 11 years. Like we're ready to move away from some of the things that we've been doing for a decade. Yeah. And a cookbook is a way, it's like a musician putting out an album. You put the music out so that you can go on to the next thing.

37:30So for Nikki, I think, like, she has a million ideas.

37:34Nikki Hill:I'm like, yay, I can't wait to see what's next. Yeah, it's, the cookbook does feel like it is a form of releasing, you know, it lined up really well with being open for 10 years and doing this book so we can kind of give homage to our early beginnings and the simple brunch recipes we were talking about. some of the more sophisticated dishes that started off as specials that eventually made it to the menu. And now because we're putting the book out and also because we have employees that have been with us for years, we can continue changing the menu, creating new dishes, creating new soups, creating new what have you with our cooks and just let go of the ones that we've done over and over.

38:24Nikki Hill:Totally. Is there a recipe in the book that you think reflects the evolution of La Copine? I think the duck confit, it was when we took the fried chicken off the menu because it was too popular after the Eater 38 essential California list. We started making duck confit. We knew we needed like a poultry dish and we knew it had to like satisfy the same way that like fried chicken would. And Nikki was like, I'm just going to go all in. Like, I'm going to do the dish that everyone's like, whoa, okay, you're doing duck confit. Like, it was really ambitious. But we figured out how to turn it out in our kitchen.

39:04Nikki Hill:And it felt like from that moment on, it was like, wow, we can do whatever we want here.

39:10Claire Wadsworth:Can I just ask about taking your most popular item off of the menu? I don't think everybody would go in that direction. Nikki.

39:18Nikki Hill:Were you just sick of making fried chicken? It was insane. It was not sick of it at all. It was keeping up with the demand. So to be honest, we had the two built-in fryers, but it took us years to find anybody who was willing to try to figure out what was wrong with them. One of them previously before we were there had caught on fire. So we were kind of scared of them. and so for a long time we used two tabletop fryers set inside of the two deep big deep fryers so the demand of the fried chicken was pretty much impossible it just would drop the oil temp six tops all ordered fried chicken and then ask if they could get more to go and i'm and i just started freaking out in the back i was like only two orders of chicken per table i don't care how many people and it's like that's not a good way to run your business either yeah when you have to But limits on dishes, like something's wrong, you know.

40:11Nikki Hill:So until we could fix the fryers, which we did, we were like, okay, we can't have this dish anymore. Hopefully people still come in. And it was the perfect season to put duck confit on the menu. So it was a way to do still something kind of exciting. A lot of people would be like, oh, I could only get that in France, you know. while we could figure out who would help us, you know, fix the fryers. And eventually we brought it back. But in those early years, it was just too much pressure on a tabletop fryer. So the risk of taking it off the menu, we definitely had backlash. We had upset people, but they still stayed and ordered other food.

40:55Nikki Hill:So, and, you know, it's a win-win in the end. They didn't leave and not come back. But now we have people who are like, where's the duck confit on the menu when we take it off? Because we change the menu like four times a year, you know, seasonally. Right. You crave different things throughout the year. We have to keep it interesting. There's people eating at our restaurant that like, you know, come in two times a week.

41:17Claire Wadsworth:Right. And this is just the problem of being a great chef and making a good dish, right? Is that no matter what you make, people are going to make it. So you might as well just keep them on their toes. Absolutely. Definitely.

41:28Nikki Hill:Keep it interesting. you know you have to keep inspiration there you really do I think Nikki's really good at like knowing what people are craving and the minute we take something off like even though they're upset I'm like but just try it try the fish cake just try it you know and they give in and they're

41:46Claire Wadsworth:like okay you got me I must feel really good I wanted to ask you about the photo shoot also the book has the most beautiful photos what was it like kind of bringing it to life in that way

41:57Nikki Hill:It was magic. We had never worked with a big, like a real professional team like that. We brought a food stylist in with her assistant, Jess Damick, and her assistant, Lillian, for the first time. And it felt really good to give components and let her style it. In an odd way, as a chef, I feel like most chefs want to be the final say on how it looks. But it felt like it was meant to be, to have someone helping because we were open simultaneously. Really? Yeah, we weren't able to close. So I was running the line with the current menu that we were serving. and in the back we were creating very small versions of all the dishes that we had done in the past so I could hand off the food to Jess.

42:55Nikki Hill:Jess was in the trailer prepping with Lillian in this tiny like 17-foot trailer that we call Coco and it was incredible working with gentle and hires andrea and marty um they were our dream photographers when we um had our proposal and abrams was encouraging us to like shoot for the moon they said who's your dream photographer that you want to work with why aren't you reaching out to them and we finally reached out to them they got back to us within 30 minutes and said like when we're in did they shoot the bon appetit

43:35Claire Wadsworth:story at La Copine or is that a different is that a different photographer they no I think that was

43:42Nikki Hill:Bon Appetit sent someone in the queer oasis one yeah yeah they sent someone in and they did all

43:47Claire Wadsworth:those profile oh yeah I worked at Bon Appetit when that article came out so you did and gentle hires used to work with VA so that's okay but I think it probably we'll fact check this I know

43:56Nikki Hill:I'm not sure who they sent but they sent someone for that which was really yeah that was kind of one of our first experiences having someone from a publication come and take photos.

44:06Claire Wadsworth:Right. So you're open, you're shooting the book in real time, basically. That seems insane. Now that I've talked with you for an hour, I get it.

44:16Nikki Hill:Well, we also had asked Gentle and Hires to do the shoot in March. Spring is like one of our favorite times of year in the desert. But we asked them to do it in like December. It was right before the holiday. And so we had to come up with the shot list and finish the book in three months. It really, we wrote the shot list the day before the photo shoot. I mean, what food photographer would walk into a shoot without having a shot list? I could not believe how generous they were being with us. I mean, Andrea showed up with a suitcase of her own props, of her own favorite things like her favorite spoons and her favorite plates and her favorite cups.

45:04Nikki Hill:And Jess showed up with all of her own props. Like we were able to go to Nikki Kehoe and go shopping at the store. It felt like a - Thank you, Todd, Nikki. Thank you, Todd. Oh my God. It felt like like a pretty woman moment like big mistake oh yeah we were holding four giant bags of individually wrapped oh my god like plates and like just the most beautiful stuff for this shoot and so andrea and marty said where are we going to shoot if you're open like i'm we can figure it out they said we just need like a corner and i said what about like a shipping container and they said, wow, that's such a great idea.

45:47Nikki Hill:And no one's ever thought to get us a container before to shoot in. And our friend had this really cool shipping container available to rent. We now own that container and it's now our little gift shop. But they had this beautiful space that they could work in where they wouldn't be bothered by our customers. By service. Remember, there's like 400 people at the restaurant in a five-hour window. So there's 100 people walking around our 1 ,700-square-foot restaurant at all times. And Nikki was just sending dishes out, and Jess would put her touches on it and would pick, you know, which plates we wanted.

46:24Nikki Hill:Occasionally, we'd see a photograph, and we'd be like, can you guys try a different plate or a different linen? But we were, we did like 10 dishes a day. They were there for, I think, two weeks. And by the end of the shoot we were just like we had thousands and thousands of photographs like i want to put out a zine of just like all the photos that didn't make the book i love that idea yeah we had so much fun and the cool thing was so the container that we rented and now own was custom built so it had it has like a three door accordion door in the front so it got really good lighting all white insulated there's a mini split so it was a it was basically like a photo studio also they would do amazing things andrea and marty like go an acre back into the cholla cactuses and shoot stuff out in the need and nature walking around with like our little table like just see like a table like floating out in the desert and the cholla are dangerous There's cactus.

47:30Nikki Hill:I know. They call it the jumping cactus. Their needles are longer than you think, and they definitely, you don't want to get stuck in one of those. I have some firsthand experience with that. Yeah, you need pliers to get them out.

47:41Claire Wadsworth:Yeah, it's a bummer. Luckily, it seems like everyone was safe when they were shooting the book.

47:47Nikki Hill:Yes, I was so scared when Marty, all of a sudden I look up, and the roof of our restaurant is like, you know, it's like A-line, like not deep, but like. It's slanted for sure. He was standing on the roof, like taking photos of all the customers, like just trying to capture what's going on in the restaurant is really hard because it happens 360. There's like the front patio, the side patio, the back patio, the parking lot. Dining room, kitchen. So he just got on the roof and was taking photographs. And, you know, Marty would come running in and he'd say, Claire, can I take your Bronco out in the desert?

48:24Nikki Hill:I'm like, sure. Just hand him the keys to the car. He'd like just take the Bronco out. And like they were incredible to work with. Yeah. Their assistants, Coco and Lucy, were amazing and loved being in the desert. Like, you know, when we originally asked them, we were nervous to ask them because we felt like we're even though we've had a restaurant open for 10 years, we still felt like we're new at this. You know, we're just beginning and they've been doing this forever. And Laura, our editor, said this is a dream project for a photographer because it's the desert, it's the people, it's the food, it's the restaurant.

49:00Nikki Hill:There's a lot that they can capture here. And, you know, we just really went with our gut and we knew immediately it was them in our first conversation. And another really awesome thing for us is Laura, our editor, and Diane, the designer, came on to the photo shoot for about five days so they could see the process. They could also see us doing the process and have even more of a scope of who we are. Right. They probably just wanted an excuse to come out to the desert.

49:32Claire Wadsworth:For sure. Because I feel like you get to spend so much time out there and to see it through the eyes of somebody who lives there and is rooted in the community there, I think, is such a different experience than getting to go out for the weekend.

49:46Nikki Hill:100%. It's really—it's healing. You come out there and, I mean, we've had mystics and oracles come to the desert and they say, this desert used to be the deepest part of the ocean. And you'll find from the earth is the secrets of the universe are coming out of the earth in this part of the desert. I mean, Matthias de Stefano is a mystic who came out and was eating at the restaurant. We couldn't believe it. Like, we're just looking, you know, and there's Matthias, this like this human who was born with memories of Atlantis and understands the origins of words that go back to Atlantis. And he's saying, you know, in the desert is where he said this is where the key to the universe is here.

50:45Nikki Hill:And we just feel really lucky being there. I still kind of can't believe it. Every day we drive to work and we're like, we live here. It's crazy. After 11 years, we're just driving around like, can you believe we moved here? It doesn't get old. It doesn't. And the horizon never changes. So there's, you know, not a lot of like growth in the desert because it's protected under like Homestead Valley laws. So your horizon never changes. Right. You can't build a new structure within eyesight of the main road. You feel young. You feel like time goes a little slower. You feel like it's just standing still in a way.

51:26Nikki Hill:Yeah.

51:27Claire Wadsworth:This episode is brought to you by Quince. Recently, I've been paying more attention to the items in my kitchen. Not the wedding stuff I pull out for the guests, but everyday pieces. The all-clad pan I reach for every time I roast a chicken, the Kramer knife I use for basically everything. When kitchen gear is well-made, it changes how cooking feels. That's what Quince is doing as well. Serious cookware like Damascus steel knives and ceramic nonstick. All performing at a professional level and priced 50-80 % less than comparable brands. There's no middlemen and it's direct from the artisans. And honestly, I'd swap out half my cabinet for Quince versions without thinking twice.

52:09Claire Wadsworth:And they've got fine wines too. Napa's best to Dom Perignon. If you want to make a weeknight feel a little more festive. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com slash taste for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. And now available in Canada too. That's quince.com slash taste for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash taste. Expedia and Visit Scotland invite you to come experience the beauty that awaits in Scotland. The sweep of wild coastlines, quiet locks and untamed landscapes Fresh cuisine that feels rooted in the land Come experience the kind of stillness that stays with you long after you leave Plan your Scottish escape today at Expedia.com slash VisitScotland Pool days call for cookouts and lots of laundry This Memorial Day at Lowe's, save$80 on a Charbroil Performance Series 4-Burner Gas Grill.

53:19Claire Wadsworth:Now just$199. Plus, get up to 45 % off select major appliances to keep dishes, clothes, and food fresh. Having fun in the sun is easy with us in your corner. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's. Valid through 527. While supplies last, selection varies by location. See associate or lowes.com for details. Well, I think that's the perfect place to jump into a rapid fire to close. So I'm going to make you play some favorites and you guys have to decide who's going to answer for all of them. I'll do it. Okay. Your favorite cookbook right now that isn't your own?

53:51Nikki Hill:Gabrielle Hamilton. Prune. Prune by Gabrielle Hamilton. Okay. You guys can't do the same answer for ever. I think that might be the only one. We'll see. We'll see. Okay. Your favorite time of year in the desert? Fall. Spring. Spring is the most beautiful minus the W-I-N-D. We don't like to say that word out loud. You can't say that word. Does it summon it if you say it? It does. Okay, I understand. Be careful what you wish for in the desert. I get it.

54:23Claire Wadsworth:Something that surprised you about the desert when you moved there?

54:26Nikki Hill:The people are so nice and so loyal. You can call anyone up in the middle of the night and say, help, I'm stuck in the dirt, and someone will throw on their jeans and boots and help you out. What surprised me is the landscape is not dead. I am surprised at how much life and growth is actually happening. After a little rain, say it hasn't rained in four or five months, a tiny bit of rain comes and all of a sudden the hillside looks a little green. There's little grass living under the sand. All of the plants there are living and thriving even to the untrained eye. It looks like kind of a desolate place.

55:13Nikki Hill:Your favorite restaurant in Yucca Valley? I love Kitchen in the Desert. And that's not in Yucca Valley. It's in 29 Palms. But we'll take it. It's so good. Everton is killing it. He's doing such a great job. And it's a good vibe and they really care. Yucca kebab. Your favorite bar in your desert area? Oh, kind of love Tiny Pony. You got drag shows. I like the Red Dog. They have really good Palomas. And tacos. And their tacos are awesome. I love their little flour tortilla tacos. Wrapped in foil. They get a little steamy. They're nice. I was there for a bingo night one time. It was very competitive.

55:59Nikki Hill:I was afraid. It's hardcore. Your go-to menu item to order at La Copine? Oh, shrimp roll all day. Shrimp roll and fried eggplant. I'm a wild card and I am different every day. So it could be fried chicken one day, a cheesesteak one day, small side salad one day. I like to eat scraps off the cutting board most of the time. Chef's treat. Yep. Your favorite celeb sighting at La Copine? I know there's been many. Susan Sarandon. She came in and had her tiny little dog under her trench coat. Oh my gosh. She just is so stunning and invited me to sit at her table and tell the story of how we ended up there.

56:47Nikki Hill:And she said, I'll probably never see you again. Because unless you open a restaurant in New York. That's what she said. What a queen.

56:58Nikki Hill:There's so many, but I think the one that made me, it really took me by surprise, was when Kate Moss sat directly in front of me at the chef's counter. I was like, fucking Kate Moss is here. Like, what in the world is going on? What did you do? I probably turned bright red and ran and, like, tried to regroup and then act cool. Oh, my God. But the order. Listen to what she ordered. With the choose there with her daughter. So Kate and Lila Moss. OK. They ordered grilled bread, cold brew coffee and the chocolate almond cake with extra creme fraiche. That was the whole order. Yeah. That's it. Wow.

57:41Nikki Hill:Love. I love that. Love that. Bread and cake.

57:43Claire Wadsworth:at Bread and Cake. I was in Joshua Tree for a Courtney Barnett concert at Pappy and Harriet's a couple years ago and I came into La Copine the next day and not only was Courtney Barnett there eating breakfast but every single person that I had seen at the concert the previous night was also there eating breakfast and the boy that my friend thought was cute that he was flirting with at the bar was one of your team members. Oh my God. I was like, okay, this tracks. Cute. That's how it goes.

58:10Nikki Hill:Ooh, it was really like Pablo. I don't know.

58:13Claire Wadsworth:Shout out to Pablo.

58:14Nikki Hill:Shout out to Pablo. Whose birthday it is today.

58:17Claire Wadsworth:Oh. Yay. Wow, that's fitting. Yes. The desert provides. The desert provides. Okay, almost done. A favorite restaurant to visit when you go back to L.A.? Oh, we love Bastia.

58:28Nikki Hill:Bastia is, like, just so good. And, you know, it's kind of like the food that we can't find in the desert. Like, I just love, like, a bowl of pasta. Hanano. It's a burger place down on Washington Boulevard near the beach. A little surf shack. Panano burger. Okay, final question.

58:51Claire Wadsworth:A fictional food scene from a book or a movie or something made up that you wish that you could magically eat in real life?

58:57Nikki Hill:Oh my gosh. This one's from my mom. Babette's Feast. I just love how it's like the people at the table would never really get together if it weren't for that meal. Like they wouldn't all be sitting together having that meal. And that's how I feel at La Copia. And like you look around, it's all walks of life. It's the rock climbers, the cowboys, the bohemian, the artist. It's just, you know, everyone coming together to have this meal. And they're all impacted in the same way. This is probably a common thing, but the ratatouille from Ratatouille. The way that it, I forget the food critic's name, but it like brought him back to his mom or grandma.

59:37Nikki Hill:And he got so emotional. I would love to taste that because ratatouille is delicious. So that would be mine.

59:43Claire Wadsworth:I love both of these answers, and it's been so much fun talking with both of you. I can't wait to come visit you at La Copine. Thank you, Liza. Thank you so much. This has been a blast. I just want to jump right into it. You know, this is something I like to have on the podcast. I like to ask guests, you know, what was the last great meal you've had? Just it can be in your hometown. It can be on the road. Paul, you start. It was actually a little restaurant in Brooklyn called Bong. Oh, yeah, right. It's actually close to where I live. It was very, very, very, very good. So what did you order? At Bong?

1:00:19Claire Wadsworth:Yeah. It had a lobster. There was like this sick salad. Yeah. And the menu changes quite a bit. Yeah, yeah. It was very good. Tiffany. I actually went down the street. It was early and had the pancake at Golden Diner. I had like seen it forever. never had it. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, 15-minute wait, no problem. It was, the hype is fucking real. That thing is delicious. When you go to a restaurant and like you like have a coveted dish like the Golden Diner pancake, are you looking at it a little closer? Oh yeah, of course. Like I'm taking it apart, trying to put it back. You're like flipping it over.

1:00:53Claire Wadsworth:Watching them cook it. I'm looking at the batter. I'm like digging it apart. Yeah. That's natural. Missy, what about yourself? I was in Vegas last night. Cantina Contramar. Oh, yes. Just opened like two weeks ago. Yeah, and she was She was there. Yeah. And like working. She was working hard. It was awesome. How big was, like how many covers do you think they did last night? Just like eyeballing it. I didn't work. Well, not you. I don't know, a lot. Like a 500. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe less. It's not huge. It's not huge. But I did see a giant group walking by. They must have private dining somewhere.

1:01:28Claire Wadsworth:It's sneaky like that sometimes when you get the two private dining and you've got the full floor. Yeah. Tim, remember yourself. A restaurant called Budonoke in L.A. Yo. Yes. And so we were there like a couple weeks ago, but like really one of the best meal highlights that I've had in a couple years. Yeah. That's such a good call. It's kind of like a neighborhood restaurant in L.A., but they do soft serve. Yeah. Like the end of the meal, they give you soft serve. We literally ordered everything on the menu for three people. Yeah. That's great. I loved that. It was so good. Well, this panel is about success and, of course, all the travails that get you to success.

1:02:11Claire Wadsworth:What does success mean to you today? And how has that definition of success changed? I'm going to say over the past five years, because I know long careers here for many of you, but the last five years. For me, it hasn't changed in the last five years. I think for me, the definition of success truly changed for me around 2015. I moved to Australia. I was 35 or 36. And success for me then was, it looked like being a top chef and winning awards and doing things for yourself. I think now and since then success for me looks like providing for my family, providing for the people that work for me, being a solid rock for the people around me.

1:03:07Claire Wadsworth:You know, and I think if I live another 20 years, if, you know, nothing's guaranteed. Let's push for more. I'm just saying, like, you know, nothing's guaranteed. We would love to live forever, but that's not what happens.

1:03:25Claire Wadsworth:That I could retire any way that I want to retire. And if I do live and I get to look back, like, no regrets, and that's what it would look like. Retiring on your own terms. Tiffany, yourself. Just like Paul, it's changed throughout the years. I used to care about all the trappings and the awards and all the things. And I think for me, it's really in the last, I don't know, more than five years, but it's really about knowing who I am as a chef and not like doubting that anymore. Understanding who we are as a group and being able to be that for each other and then allowing everyone to have like their own means of creativity.

1:04:03Claire Wadsworth:Chefs or wine directors and allow my team to be really fulfilled in the things that drive them while we are still true to who we are as a company. And I mean, this sounds like a little bit condannic, but financial success is also really important. Like I'm not 30 anymore. And it's really important that not only me, but my team can raise their families, pay their mortgages, like that they have a comfortable life. What's one quick way you give your staff agency towards their own success? Is there something that you have learned over your experience in managing that you that you go to? Yeah, get the hell out of the way, like stop micromanaging people.

1:04:38Claire Wadsworth:And it took me forever to do that because I think it was so, there was a lot of, it's not insecurity, but when you're driving your career when you're younger, it's really about like, and I think you have to almost be like. You're like, so singularly focused on like getting where you want to go before you can then let everyone else like get out of the car and do what they want to do. So it's impossible to do that until you're at a certain place where you can, and you've been together so long, like my culinary director and I have been together for 16 years. So like, you know, it takes a lot of trust and a lot of like, like working together to get there.

1:05:11Claire Wadsworth:Missy, yourself. Success. How do you define it? Oh, success. Oh, success. You know, I think similar to these guys, like it hasn't changed that much over the last five years. Parts of it have. I think obviously having continuously busy restaurants, like that's really important. Lilia, my first restaurant, turned 10 in January. And like everyone always says, well, what's next? What are you opening? And I'm like, I just want Lilia and Missy to do really well. And, you know, we're building a brand called Missy Pasta that's sauce and pastas and goods. And I would like that to be a real brand that lives in everyone's homes.

1:05:56Claire Wadsworth:And that takes a lot. But I think, you know, in terms of lifestyle, my role has changed quite a bit. and just sort of success is about building the teams, mentoring the teams, having the right people surrounding you, which then allows me to kind of enter this next phase of my career, which is very different than five years ago. And you're probably resetting the goals now with your new CPG brand too. Yeah, I reset goals for myself, reset goals for the team, and just look at the business as a whole very differently than just having two restaurants. Yeah. Tim, yourself. Yeah, it's changed a lot over the past 18 years, and this was my second career.

1:06:41Claire Wadsworth:So I think success now is defined as impact for me. So impact not just in the restaurants, but in the community that we're building around us in the restaurants and around the cultural community that we have. So using the impact that I have and like my friends have as like chefs and restauranteurs and how we pay back to the community that we are, I guess, to a degree like using, right? Like that is what we're selling to a degree. Every one of my restaurants has a Chinese tilt to it, right? And so we want to make sure that we are representing that and impacting that in a positive way. And in the same vein, like impact to like we have like over 100 employees now.

1:07:28Claire Wadsworth:And also it's impact to those employees that we are someone that they want to work for. And then also I have three kids. So I want my kids to look upon me and be like, oh, that's my father is somebody that I want to be. I'm going to ask you the same follow-up that I asked Missy. So what would you say to an employee that wanted to know if they're doing well? And how would you measure their success? Is there any way that you can engage with your staff that maybe our audience would be thankful to hear from you? Yeah, I think our teams, you know, as we've grown, we have over 200 now. And it's a lot of people and sort of being further removed from the kitchens every day.

1:08:10Claire Wadsworth:It's really hard to be in touch. But we've really, you know, I am a not systems person. I'm like an old school, like I hate Excel spreadsheets. I'm like very slow to adapt to AI, but I'm getting there. But I think we have put measures in so that we can really evaluate people and give them something to achieve other than just kind of like, here's your annual review and here's$5 ,000 more on your salary or$3 more if you're hourly or whatever. And I think we kind of came up for every position, sous chef, cook, front of house manager, server, back server, whatever, a list of non-negotiables. And that non-negotiables was derived by a senior leadership team, and we all sort of agreed on them.

1:09:04Claire Wadsworth:But I think it gives a great guide to, like, what the mission of the restaurant is and what the mission of the chefs are and, like, what is your job? and like, what do we expect from you? And it's really been interesting. And like, we kind of just rolled that out. It's been rolled out to the CDCs and the chefs, but we just rolled it out to the line staff. And they're really like interested in it. Yeah. Well, one more question for the group, and then I have some individual questions to bounce around. So I'll start with you, Paul. You know, when did you realize that you were no longer a cook? you were a business owner, you were an operator, you were a boss.

1:09:46Claire Wadsworth:Was there like a moment in your career when the rubber hit the road and you were like, oh man, I'm not just a cook? Yeah, I would say...

1:10:00Claire Wadsworth:When I took over Maupesh. Yeah. And that was 2011. Yeah. Does anybody remember Maupesh, by the way? I heard a shout. I loved what you were doing there. I loved when you were cooking. It was really planting the seeds for what you ended up opening at Kabawa, you know, some of those dishes. And that's a crazy space. Yeah. Crazy is being kind. Yeah, so there, you know, I think there's a huge, our industry gets stuck in this space where you're good at one thing and you get promoted through the ranks because you're good at that thing. And that thing doesn't, you know, because you're a good cook or a good song doesn't make you a good manager.

1:10:50Claire Wadsworth:And I think of all the pressure that I had from the then director of ops really, like, switched the way I thought about, like, that space and thought about, like, the people around me. because you're in there, you're the good cook, right? And you got to like, you know, execute things. But we were a breakfast, lunch, dinner operation with room service in a hotel. And you quickly got to realize like, if you don't perform in every outlet, like you're going to be done. Tiffany, yourself. Like when I set out to open my first restaurant, I wanted to open my like very fancy, like, look at me, I'm a hot shit chef restaurant.

1:11:39Claire Wadsworth:And the universe had other plans for me that was like really, really beneficial for me. So I ended up opening Sweet Cheeks as my first restaurant that I owned, which was American Barbecue. And it was less creatively driven and more, it was more about consistency. So that allowed me to like super focus on being able to run a business. And it's wild because like owning a business is very, very different than running a business. Like all of a sudden, everything looks like a dollar, like a paperclip on the ground looks like a dollar. You start to understand this is a business of like pennies and nickels and not dollars.

1:12:12Claire Wadsworth:Like we say all the time in my company, we don't step over dimes to get to dollars. Like this is how you win in this industry. So I think it was that and like the responsibility of keeping the business open and the responsibility that I had to my employees, people that work for me and their families, their choices. It was up to me to make sure that we were like financially successful. and that we were also culturally successful. So Missy, for you, I followed your career. You were working for other people. You were the executive chef, but you had other people above you for years. And then you opened up your own namesake eventually in Brooklyn.

1:12:47Claire Wadsworth:When did you realize that you had to be the boss? I mean, day one. Day one of what? Always, always. Like I've been in these executive positions for 20 something years. I'm old. I'm older than all these people. But I've been doing this a long time and my career has like continually evolved and the positions from exec chef to owner to chef owner, you know, even that's evolved. And so I think like I'll always consider myself a chef and it's really hard to make that transition. I now have a culinary director on my team, which he's changed my life. He's changed the team's life. He's changed the company's life.

1:13:35Claire Wadsworth:He's amazing. But it was a hard transition for me personally to kind of like let go and be like, you know, all of a sudden they were going to him after six months. And then when they started to trust him and I'm like, why isn't anyone asking me questions anymore? But I really do feel like an entrepreneur business person now. with still this love for the culinary aspect and creating. But I really kind of am cherishing this time in my career. Like, it's time to do what I'm doing. Was there, like, a moment when the culinary director made some decision and you just, like, you did not agree with it, but you were like, let it happen?

1:14:18Claire Wadsworth:A little bit, yes. It's funny you should ask that. I was in Italy, and, you know, like nothing really still goes on the menus without me okaying it. And he's fantastic, and I want participation from him, from my CDCs, and I don't want to create all the menus anymore myself. I'm tired. I don't want to look at another ramp and be like, what should I do this spring with a ramp? Your honesty is appreciated. Let the young kids do that. Let them figure out the ranch. Let them make the nettles in the screen. Yeah, let them figure. Nettles are silly. Listen, there's a nettles producer out there that's doing good nettles.

1:14:59Claire Wadsworth:Sorry, Mr. Nettle. Baldor is doing great nettles. Sorry, Mr. Nettle. Anyway, I think, like, I was in Italy, and he sent me a picture of, like, a carpaccio dish. And I was like, oh, that looks nice. And I didn't realize that he was running it as a special. And it made me so uncomfortable. And I was like, all right, Missy, you have two choices. You can be a micromanager right now from 9 ,000 miles away in a foreign country, or you can just let it go and assume that maybe it's not perfect, but it's not going to be bad. And that was it. That was that moment where I sort of had to trust in him, trust that I hired him for the right reason.

1:15:43Claire Wadsworth:And it feels good. I don't want to micromanage this thing anymore. That was a moment I'm sure you just released and it was it. and you moved. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Team yourself, do you have a moment when you realized you were the boss? Yeah, when I, in 2018, 2019, I closed three of my restaurants. And that's when I realized I was the boss. And it was kind of one of those things where like transitioning from trying to be the chef of every restaurant to be the leader in all of your restaurants was a very like aha moment, realizing that I was trying to operate all these restaurants and I was the single throughput for so many things.

1:16:29Claire Wadsworth:And that sent us like in this downward spiral because everybody was waiting for me to make a decision, whether it be on food or like plateware or staffing choices. And everything was like, you know, restaurants are like a house of cards. Like one thing goes wrong and the entire thing goes down. But when you have like multiple restaurants and like everyone here can attest to it is that when one thing goes wrong, it feels like every restaurant's going wrong. And so that's when I was like, okay, like I can no longer be the chef or the cook of every restaurant. I have to be the leader for all these restaurants.

1:17:04Claire Wadsworth:And it was a pretty hard lesson to learn. But it taught me a lot. Yeah. Well, this is for Tiffany then, Missy. You both have publicly talked about building culture. Building culture. We hear about it all the time. Many in this room have it on spreadsheets and docs and talk to their staff about it. So I want to ask each of you specifically, you know, there's a lot of lip service about building culture. But what does it mean to you specifically? Are there moments in your career recently or past where you felt like you were building a culture? Yeah, every moment. Culture is like a living, breathing thing in restaurants.

1:17:41Claire Wadsworth:And if you are not actively and consistently building the culture that you want to have in your restaurant, that you want people to be living in, then you are actively building against it. So we say we have a no assholes rule in our company. And it's kind of a running joke, but we've gotten to the place where, as a woman and a queer woman, I didn't start my own company so that we could treat people like shit. That's just not it. So it's interesting because we've had people come into the restaurant and like want seeking out companies with better culture. And it was so uncomfortable, like literally, like emotionally, spiritually, physically uncomfortable for them to be in an environment where there is no grab ass and there's no sexist comments and there's no homophobic comments.

1:18:23Claire Wadsworth:And there's no like there's literally no bullshit that people can't survive because they're so used to like toxic environments. So it's been it really is like every day. and it's not to the point of like being militant it just now exists and of course we have like incredible women and non-binary people that work in the company but one of the greatest gifts I think of like being really intentional about building this culture is the extraordinary men that work in the company like they just we have the best guys that work in the company they just have like whole hearts incredible minds like they get to live in a culture that like respects and loves them as well.

1:18:59Claire Wadsworth:Very well said. Missy, yourself, culture, building it. I mean, was there a moment when you decided that this was the culture I wanted to foster having worked in many restaurants before under maybe different cultures? Yeah, I mean, I've worked in great cultures as an employee. I've worked in really bad cultures as an employee. And I, I, when I, when I left my last job as an employee before opening Lilia, I didn't even know if I wanted to be in this business anymore because because I was so burnt and I was like, I'm not the person I want to be. Like a lot of it was on me. Like I was like, I'm becoming kind of an asshole.

1:19:35Claire Wadsworth:I was like angry. I was like, I had this crazy pressure on me to perform at a level that like I respected, but that was like, became sort of silly to me. And I was like, what am I doing? And I ended up taking a year plus off, as you know. And I really thought about, like, what do I want to do? Who do I want to be? How do I want to translate that? And I happened to meet my upstairs neighbor who became my business partner. And we had many conversations before deciding to partner about values, family values, business values, culture. He was in the finance world, hedge funds, lived through many of similar things.

1:20:19Those businesses are very oddly similar in terms of culture.

1:20:24Claire Wadsworth:What did we like about past jobs? What didn't we? And we really came together and decided we want a company that really takes care of people and really puts the people in a position where they want to come to work every day. And it is, like Tiffany said, a living, breathing thing. You can put on paper what you want. You can write down a bunch of values and say, you know, make it better. Look through a different lens. It's so cheap. I mean, just putting it on paper. And we have those. We have them written down. But I think, like, you can tell when your culture is broken, too. And, like, we have gone through periods where, like, you would walk into one of the restaurants and it wouldn't feel good.

1:21:07Claire Wadsworth:And that's on us. Either the wrong people were in place and we didn't move quickly enough to get them out. or we weren't there enough to nurture, you know, it's changed a lot. Sean and I were at Lilia pretty much every night when it opened. We can no longer do that. And so we now have an amazing COO. We have two directors of hospitality. We have this culinary director, and they are there to be the voices of me and Sean and to translate that down to the rest of the team. And it's hard. It's hard. And it's like when we were having sort of a culture breakdown, I could feel it. Like I could feel it and I didn't want to be in the restaurant.

1:21:50Claire Wadsworth:And our guests felt it, most importantly. Really? Example. How does the guests feel cultures? Could read reviews. And they changed. You know, they changed. And I always say, like, you can tell when a chef is, like, getting divorced or in a really good relationship by the way their food is. I remember when I was a very young cook and I worked for someone. And I could always tell when, like, he was, like, killing it on the girlfriend side or, like, single. And he was grumpy and, like. Oh, yeah. And people can tell. People can tell when your staff isn't happy. That translates to the food. It translates to the front door.

1:22:30Claire Wadsworth:And it's interesting. We knew it and we worked really hard to correct it. And it feels really different now. And so I think culture is like an evolving thing and you can write it down and you can make a book and you can do the thing. But it really comes from here and like the presence of your team and you when you walk in the door. And I'll say like I'm not perfect and everyone knows it. But I've worked really hard to get better every day. And we work with an executive coach. And he's been fantastic with my team, with me, with Sean. And he's really, really, like, taught a lot and created sort of a, certainly an evolution for me.

1:23:16Claire Wadsworth:But it's definitely helped the team, too. Love that. Paul, I want to ask you about hiring, staffing, a topic that I think is on many people's minds if you operate a restaurant. You know, hiring is one thing, retaining is another thing. And honestly, in today's world and in New York, with a very competitive market for labor and for folks doing the job, how do you hire and how do you retain talent, meaning talent sticks around a year, two years? Well, this one's pretty sticky because it's tough now. It is like, irregardless of, I guess, the amount of restaurants here, like the talent pool is very, very small.

1:23:59Claire Wadsworth:It's very, very different. For us, it's similar to you. We kind of got a no assholes policy, you know, first and foremost. And second, we want to find people that are going to buy into what we do. And I think if you could do those two things, you're on a very good track to having a good staff. Buying into the culture and the space is, I think, paramount. Buying. Yeah, like the people that walk into our doors need to believe or at least get to a point where to believe in what we're doing, right? And I think once you're there, then there's all the things you could incentivize people with. Everyone's so different, right?

1:24:55Claire Wadsworth:I personally was never a person that was incentivized by money. You know, so like you could throw all the money you want at me. If I didn't believe in you or the thing, I'm out, right? So like the people that I worked for throughout my career, it was all about just belief. then there are people that want money, there are people that want like I'm the kind of person that needs to be left alone. Give me agency and I will be the best employee ever. I'll be better than you ever thought of. But micromanage me. See you later. Can't do it. So for me and our space and our spaces, those two things are very important.

1:25:45Claire Wadsworth:Other panelists, retaining talent. Any thoughts on how you retain talent? I think it's about mentoring and nurturing them. And at whatever level they're at, I've watched my CDC at Missy has really brought back, you know, she's been in the industry a long time and she's really brought back the, like, promoting dishwashers, which I hadn't seen in a long time in my restaurants. I had a lot of dishwashers who had no interest in becoming cooks. And I would say like half her kitchen now is people who have been promoted. We promote from within. We show people like this is where you can be. All those senior leaders that I spoke about, besides the culinary director who came from outside.

1:26:37Claire Wadsworth:Every single one of them started in something else. Our COO was 26 when she started with us. She's 34 now. She started as a wine director for both restaurants. She basically runs the company with me now and Sean. Our two director of hospitalities, one started as a bartender, one started as a server. They went to managers, GMs. Our CDC at Lilia was a line cook when he started. He's been with us for eight years. And I think like retention is hard. It's certainly hard at the cook level. I think, you know, for our restaurant group, what I do is so specific. You're not going to come and learn like crazy technique.

1:27:22Claire Wadsworth:You're going to learn how to make amazing pasta and have like amazing respect for ingredients and learn simplicity. But I think for some cooks, that is hard. So when we can grow them and teach them and move them from one restaurant to the other because they are really different, that's a huge win. And all we think about is retention and how do we keep people and how do we grow so that they can do more. Tiffany, you were going to, or Paul, you want to follow up? Yeah, I was also going to say, like legitimately meeting people where they are is very important as well, you know, because I'll give an example.

1:28:05I have five, six prep cooks, and all those prep cooks don't want to be Missy or Tiffany

1:28:16Claire Wadsworth:or Tim. They just want security, and they want, and it's like, okay, so what's going to be a thing to keep you here doing that thing that everybody else doesn't want to do, right? because, I don't know, we all have roles in our jobs that are tedious and brain-numbing, and everybody doesn't want to participate. But sometimes you find a person that's just like, hey, look, I got four kids. I need this amount of money a week. I don't care about doing that job. They'll do that job. And as long as you just care for them and nurture them, they'll just continue. And no matter what you want for them, sometimes that's irrelevant because it's what they want for them.

1:29:05Claire Wadsworth:Right. So that's something that I've learned over time is like, while you have the best expectations for everybody, you're just like, everybody's a winner and everybody's going to be, you know, a politician at some point. That's not necessarily the truth because everybody doesn't always want that for their lives. So meeting people where they are is also very important. Tiffany, you were going to say? Totally agree with Paul. It's about, for me, it's about setting expectations and being very clear about what the job is. If there is a growth path, what that looks like. And meeting people where they're at, doing those two things at the same time.

1:29:48Claire Wadsworth:And always creating a situation where they know where they stand. Like there's no games. Like they understand that they're doing a good job when they're doing a good job. They understand that there's need for growth in certain areas. I think that becomes like really critical to retention in that way. And I think one of the things that we have learned over the years in my company is that, and I don't know if Missy, you specifically like deal with this, but there's like we, my company name is Big Heart Hospitality. And it really is about showing up with like your best self and your biggest heart, all those things.

1:30:17Claire Wadsworth:That does not mean that I have figured out how to make this easier, how to do it sitting down, how to do it with less hours. Like it's not puppies and rainbows. Like we didn't, I can't, because I'm a woman, I have not figured out like an easier way to do this and pay you twice as much as the restaurant next door. We're still going to work our asses off. But like, I'm going to be very clear about that when you come in, that like you're going to work really, really hard. You're going to learn a ton. We're going to meet you where you're at. Like you want to grow, you want to like sprint through this.

1:30:43Claire Wadsworth:We'll do it as fast as you want to do it. If you're not ready, you're not ready. If you just want to do this one job and you're happy doing that, no problem. I'm just going to observe, and I think we've all seen these four chefs, they communicate. They have an ability to set these goals. And not everyone communicates the same. I think you can just see from the four speakers different styles. But it's clear that as a chef, as an operator, as an owner, if you can articulate your vision clearly to your staff, there's a lot of value in that. Get business done with the new American Express Graphite Business Cash Unlimited card.

1:31:17Claire Wadsworth:With unlimited 2 % cash back on all eligible purchases, unlimited 5 % cash back on flights and prepaid hotels booked through American Express Travel Online, and a flexible spending capacity that can grow with your business, you'll have the confidence to keep building. Apply today and earn a welcome offer of$1 ,500 cash back after you spend$50 ,000 in qualifying purchases on your new card within the first six months of card membership. Terms apply. Learn more at go.amex. Now at McDonald's, a McDouble is$250, So you can get your gym gains on or just get lunch for only$2.50.

1:31:51Nikki Hill:Get more value on the under$3 menu. Limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher for delivery. Where is Daredevil?

1:32:01Claire Wadsworth:I'm right here. Don't miss the return of Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again. So what's next? We're gonna take this city back. Over Medicaid. In an all new season, now streaming only on Disney+. They're hunting us. It's time we started hunting them. I can work with them. That nobody is. This should be tons of fun. Marvel Television's Daredevil, Born Again, now streaming only on Disney+. A few more questions. We have about nine minutes left, so we want to get through a few more things. I'll start with you, Tim. If you could go back and tell yourself one thing before you opened your first restaurant, what would it be?

1:32:43Claire Wadsworth:Don't open a restaurant. For real? I mean, like, for real. So I bought my first restaurant off Craigslist. Whoa, really? You can buy anything off Craigslist. And back in 2008, you really could buy anything off Craigslist. You don't need to buy a restaurant like that. But I had a former career, so I have really good credit. I don't anymore because I'm a restaurateur. Yeah, so I bought my first ride. I found it on Craigslist. I went and I sat outside and I Looked at it. I was like, okay, I'll buy it and then they're like, okay, great. How are you gonna pay? And so I bought it with a credit card Don't do that either It's a it was kind of crazy.

1:33:31Claire Wadsworth:It was a wild story Don't build it. I mean basically don't do everything that I did It was what I would tell myself, don't build it with your friends, even though like it was a great experience with your friends, but like you kind of get what you play with at that point. So like when it rained outside, it rained inside. Yeah. But it was, it's kind of like those failures and those hardships and those lessons are kind of what makes you resilient enough to go through this again. And it's just like having a baby, right? Like, you open a second restaurant because you forget how hard it was. So I would say don't forget how hard it was.

1:34:11Claire Wadsworth:Don't buy it off Craigslist. Don't use a credit card. You know, watch that debt because that's really how a lot of people get in trouble. Missy, what would you tell your— Oh, I'm perfect, Matt. I mean, you know. You are pretty good. I would say what opening restaurants has done to me, and particularly the first opening, which was Lilia, was to be open-minded to possibility and what that can do. I had zero intention and kind of went kicking and screaming to Williamsburg. I had worked for a really long time, and my definition of success then, to kind of go full circle, was to open in downtown Manhattan.

1:34:56Claire Wadsworth:I could have stayed in Chicago and had a much easier life and had 10 restaurants, and I would have not felt successful. Like I said, I'm not fucking opening in Brooklyn. You were one of those people at that time. Very publicly. Very publicly. I lived in the West Village. I loved my life there. Then everyone said, oh, you're going to move to Brooklyn. I said, I'm never moving to Brooklyn. I live in the West Village now. Nine years later, I have three restaurants in Brooklyn, and I own a home. And you go to a lot of Nets games, I'm sure. I mean, it's like. I go to a lot of Knicks games. Yeah, yeah.

1:35:30Claire Wadsworth:Oh, you're Knicks games. Okay, sorry. I'm still a Knicks fan. Wrong team, wrong team. But you are Brooklyn. But I do think, like, you know, we took a bet on going to Williamsburg. Then we took a bet on South Williamsburg, which really wasn't very built up when we decided to do Missy. but we like saw something. And we've taken a bet with this little sauce company. And I think that, yeah, I think just be open-minded, never say never has been a great learning for me. Love that. Tiffany? For me, if I could go back and tell myself specifically, be careful about your business partners. Be really, really careful and intentional about the people that you end up getting into bed with, metaphorically, obviously.

1:36:15Claire Wadsworth:If they don't reflect your values, it will not work. I've had to buy two business partners out. So it's just me now. I own the majority of my company. So I would say that. I would say invest as little as possible opening your first restaurant and every restaurant thereafter. Like for every, you know,$100 that you put into it, you need to make a thousand to get that back out and exponentially more. So you really have to think about that investment and what you're investing in. Does that touch your guest? Does it touch your team? Is it meaningful or is it just you flexing in ways that you don't need to flex?

1:36:49Claire Wadsworth:I would also tell myself to not take everything so personally. It needs to feel deeply personal. That's hard. Exactly. Because you have to find a balance. It needs to feel deeply personal so that you defend it and you hold it. It's like you're a kid and it means that much to you. I don't think it's possible to be successful unless you treat it that way. But at the same time, every little thing cannot penetrate you and, like, irritate you and upset you. And you have to find some sort of balance. And then just keep going. Yeah. Just keep going. Don't quit. Paul, yourself, what would you tell your real answer?

1:37:27Claire Wadsworth:Real answer. Real answer. We're a small group here. I would, if you could go back in time, I would tell 14-year-old Paul, because that's what I started cooking in restaurants. I would have been, I'd be like, you love this. This is amazing. But you're good at tech. And it's the early 90s. Do tech. Make a bunch of money and then do this. that's what I would tell young Paul but we can't do that that is impossible and I am very happy with the path I chose and I totally love what I do even though it's broken my body over and over and over again but one thing I would say and this is the truth speaking about bodies I would tell young Paul to care more about his body.

1:38:29Claire Wadsworth:That's a great, great. And I think the younger generation certainly is doing that in many ways. Well, let's do this lightning round. We have about two and a half minutes left. We've been walking the floor. We've been checking out all the great products in the Baldor universe. So I'll start with you, Paul. What has been a favorite Baldor discovery in the past little while? And we'll go down the line. I'm going to be a little off the beaten path there, but like the people, the people at Baldor are cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, they are cool. We did a little event at our place a few months ago and I was like, oh, this is a cool group.

1:39:10Claire Wadsworth:I like that answer. Tiffany, yourself? Same. I've had extraordinary relationships with the people at Baldor. Shane Brunette is my sales rep. We've been dear friends. We were just talking about this for 17 years now. And when I first opened Sweet Cheeks, I called the president of Baldor, who was like a friend of a friend at one point, saw me at something like this and said, if you ever need anything, give me a call. I've never called anyone that's ever offered anything like that. And we needed so much meat to smoke, and we were so busy at Sweet Cheeks. And I called him, and they didn't tell Shane that I called him.

1:39:43Claire Wadsworth:And he was like, Ms. Faison, what can I do for you today? And I was like, unlimited credit, 90 days. And he was like, don't make me regret this, and hung up the phone. We were the second largest account in Boston to the Four Seasons at that point. Amazing story. So, the people. Products? Anything from the product culinary side? Missy? Well, I wanted to say it's been incredible. I've been using Baldor for 20 plus years, and I think it's so incredible, the growth. And again, I agree with you. I'm here today because they've been such great partners to us, and it's hard to say no to that. But I just discovered that Tim sells his scallion pancakes through Baldor.

1:40:24Claire Wadsworth:And I'm going to buy some for my staff meals. Excellent. And my home. I love that. Scallion pancake, buy now on Baldor. Tim, product that you love from Baldor. Closing thoughts, last words. I mean, I think just in general, it's just I trust the quality of what they're purchasing. So it's like anything that I want or that I need, we go to them for quality first. And so just like their willingness to find the products that we want to use has been very refreshing. Well, let's give this panel a round of applause. You guys have been a great audience. Thank you so much. Thank you, panel. Appreciate it.

1:41:11Claire Wadsworth:This is Taste is hosted and produced by Matt Rodbard and me, Eliza Abarbanil. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergang Pomeroy. logo design by Ellie Skurzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.

1:41:47Nikki Hill:There's a new way to sweet green. Meat wraps. Handheld, hearty, and made for life on the moon. With bold, chef-crafted flavors, fresh ingredients, and over 40 grams of protein,

1:41:59Claire Wadsworth:they're built to satisfy without slowing you down. Try Wraps today in the app or at order.sweetgreen.com. Available at all participating locations.

1:42:17Claire Wadsworth:Starting a business can seem like a daunting task, unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website, to marketing, to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz, and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into... Sign up for your$1 per month trial at shopify.com slash special offer.