787: The Food Writer to Romance Novel Pipeline with Eliza Dumais & Julia Turshen

20:58Eliza Dumais:You know, you associate a specific bottle with a specific night with friends, but you also might associate it with a book you were reading at the time or a song. And it's so nice to be able to tether those sensory details in your brain and hold on to them.

21:11Aliza Dumais:Yeah. Okay, I don't want to get into spoilers, but I want to talk a little bit about the romance that's at the center of this book, which is between Alice and Henri, who's the nephew of the winemaker. How did you decide who your love interest would be?

21:24Eliza Dumais:that's a great question um for what it's worth i'll say that almost everything in this book is some composite version of autobiographical of autobiographical except for um the love interest who feels like probably he was derived from some mixture of my favorite literary or um cinematic love interests. But I think I wanted to write a romance where the point wasn't actually some version of happily ever after. I wanted to write a romance that instead was focused on what it feels like to fall in love and have your brain shifted in such a monumental way. so to have two characters who are feeling really stuck and not in some tragic way in in a bored way they're sort of flatlining out of just general fatigue and disinterest and I I have found that I mean falling in love is incredibly humiliating and I feel bad for everyone who must do it it's just mortifying and earnest and there's no way to avoid that and and I really wanted to write characters who are used to being stoic and unfeeling and almost taking pride in that and responding to what it felt like to sort of lose a grip on that you know brazen cold remove I didn't want either of them to be in sort of a power dynamic relationship where one was more stuck than the other or was giving up more to pursue this.

23:18Eliza Dumais:And I felt like she had this sort of intrigue and an exit strategy at all times and was single and curious and working on her French. And he has a slight position of power because he's tethered to the winemaker. And at the same time, that ups the stakes a bit because he doesn't want to be thought of as, frivolous or not working hard or just like making out with somebody who's harvested in the vines. But I think that they were sort of foils to one another in many ways and I think they both admired one another and resented one another probably for a number of things that they had in common. But I, in the And I think the most fun part of writing that experience of falling in love was in writing two characters who were for the first time seeing color again.

24:23Aliza Dumais:I really like that description. And I think it does seem very considered in terms of who they are and their positions and how they relate to each other. When I was telling a friend of mine about the story, she was like, what do you mean she's not falling in love with the winemaker? And I was like, well, age dynamic, like power dynamic, like he's her boss. Like, I think this is a much, like, he's still the cute French wine guy, but he's, it feels like a more, like, I guess safe isn't the right word, but it's a less creepy relationship.

24:51Eliza Dumais:Completely. And, you know, for what it's worth, most of the winemakers I've worked for have been in their 60s and 70s. They're not, like, big, robust, hot 30-year-old men. And not to say that I don't love an age gap romantic narrative, but I like that there's a lack of power dynamic here. They're both sort of untethered in similar ways and a little lost. And nobody is supposed to be the one in charge or the one with the answers.

25:23Aliza Dumais:Yeah. Something you mentioned before was the fact that Alice is wanting to work on her French. And that's a reason why she goes and works on the vineyard. And I know that's been something you've been studying for a while as well. I was curious how you decided to use French in the book as a way of kind of adding color without having, you know, sentences that you need to translate that into English as well. Yeah, completely.

25:44Eliza Dumais:I think in the world of harvest, language has become so tethered to the labor of picking grapes or working in the cellar for me because it's often been required for me to sort of muddle through conversations or instructions. But for that reason, I think anytime you are speaking French and you're on a roll, you're feeling good, you've gained your rhythm, it absolutely has a taste. You feel it on your palate. It moves in a particular way. And so I think drinking and speaking French have always been sort of tethered in that way. There's like a ballet of the mouth that you must do. But on top of that, I think learning a language engenders this sense of absolute awe.

26:34Eliza Dumais:You feel like a child and you move through the world and you can point at something and say, that's what color that is. That's what that is. That's what that is. And you're sort of giddy with enthusiasm for these simple tenets of language and you look at things differently and with renewed glee. and I wanted so much of the book to be directed towards this feeling of awe. I wanted Alice to feel like she was recovering a sense of awe and I think dipping into this language, being vulnerable in that way does actually help her be more moved by the world around her.

27:10Aliza Dumais:Definitely and she also is similar to yourself, native New Yorker, kind of like slick, fast talking and it puts her in this position of, you know, needing to prove herself or learning from the people around her, or even just as like a flirtation dynamic, like being able to correct someone's pronunciation to them or teach them a new word for something. It feels like it's kind of ripe in that way.

27:32Eliza Dumais:Completely. And I also feel like in a language you are not terribly proficient and you're almost forced to be more honest. Yeah. In lieu of saying 28 clever things that mean I'm feeling kind of sad today in French, I would just say I'm sad today. And I think there's a certain rawness that comes with not having all the nuances of a language to use and instead being sort of blunt.

28:02Aliza Dumais:I feel like French is famously talked about as a very romantic language. As someone who's been learning French, does it feel romantic to you? Oh, yes, absolutely.

28:12Eliza Dumais:It's so fluid. I I say this in the book, but it's always sounded like speaking in cursive to me. Sort of everything is in italics and it's it always feels like just one word. People talk for 10 minutes and it could have just been an uninterrupted phrase. It feels like there's no jilted stops and starts and there's something so beautifully fluid about it.

28:37Aliza Dumais:Yeah, I think it is so beautiful. And I like the way that in this book, it's kind of woven throughout in the sense that as a reader, I always know where I am. But I didn't have to go to Google Translate too often and try to understand what was happening in that moment. It's kind of like when you don't really understand what someone's saying in a foreign place, but you just go along with it. And then you find yourself in a place where you understand what's happening again. I'm so glad to hear that.

29:02Eliza Dumais:I think that that was, I wanted to communicate the language dynamic, but definitely didn't want to make people feel as if it was quintessential to understanding the book, that they had some basic French. But I also like the way it's sort of destabilizing for a moment to not know how to unpack a word or a sentence. And often, even if it's revealed over time, there's a tiny bit of momentary discomfort, and that might be a good thing.

29:32Aliza Dumais:So I have to ask you a little bit about writing sex scenes. And I'm curious if you think writing about sex is similar to writing about food or wine or other kind of sensory experiences.

29:42Eliza Dumais:Yeah, I think that writing about sex and writing about wine are extremely aligned. I think the basis of writing well about wine is in taking this one particular moment, which is taking a sip of something and slowing it down tenfold and analyzing it from every sensory angle you can. So what does it smell like? What does it taste like? What does it make you think of what goes through your brain? How does it move through your mouth? and I think writing about sex is very much the same thing you're taking something that's sort of primal and happens quickly and is instinctual and instead you're breaking it down into this sort of minute by minute slowed down format where you're instead of thinking about action or being consumed by pleasure you're thinking about what you're feeling in different parts of your body and what you're smelling and what goes through your brain And, you know, I think the best sex scenes are ones that are obviously sort of rich in detail, but also actually sexy.

30:54Eliza Dumais:And I think you sort of have to, you can't just write about pleasure. I think you need to describe with care and with detail how it exists in your brain and the entirety of your body. And I think it's just sort of a game of paying attention and moving slowly when breaking down the details of something that we often do somewhat thoughtlessly and intensely, but without a particularly intellectual narrative around it.

31:24Aliza Dumais:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was giddy when I was reading this book. I was on the subway and I was reading it and I was like, Henri, no.

31:33Eliza Dumais:I'm glad. I mean, I think you almost blush when you're writing them, too. I think I would be having to hide my face in writing it, actually. Yeah, there's something. You know, I think there's an author, Lydia Yuknovich, who wrote this book called The Chronology of Water. And I think she writes the best sex scenes I've ever read. They're so visceral and they're so human. and, you know, there's an intensity and a real-time sort of fervor about them, but the writing is just gorgeous. And I went back and read them among, you know, a few other things when I was sitting down to write this, but there is a little bit of, like, giggling to yourself or, you know, I don't feel like I could write the sex scenes if someone else was home or, you know,

32:20Aliza Dumais:I feel like I had to be in a secluded private space. I mean, that's you, but I'm sure there's somebody in a coffee shop or at the library right now that's writing like page after page of like a sex scene in the public space.

32:32Eliza Dumais:Yeah, I kind of like to think that, you know, when we're all sitting and working quietly in a coffee shop, 20 % of the people are writing literatica.

32:39Aliza Dumais:Yeah, honestly, it's interesting to be writing a romance book because there's obviously so it's such a rich genre. And I think that the readership of romance, they're so dedicated and like have certain things that they want to see out of a book. Did you feel any sort of expectation or kind of like this is the way that I need this to go? Or did you feel more kind of freeform in terms of adding a book to the kind of romance canon in 831 maybe specifically?

33:06Eliza Dumais:Yeah. I think that I, there are a lot of quintessential tropes that come with romance novels. And I love the ways in which romance authors have taken a similar set of sort of formatting notions and made them so original and so rich and so personal. I think the one overarching rule I was given from the get-go is that for this to be qualified as genre romance, it must have a happy ending. Not to say that I wanted to write a tragic ending or was itching to blow everything up, but I think that there's something odd about writing towards a happy ending from the get-go without completely understanding yet what will happen or where your characters will end up.

33:55Eliza Dumais:And, you know, I would argue that maybe my ending is cautiously optimistic. It's a little ambiguous, I would say. Yeah, but optimistically happy.

34:05Aliza Dumais:Well, also there's the epilogue, which I subscribed to the newsletter to read. I was like, I need to know what's going to happen next. So there is a certain degree of breadcrumbing going on as well.

34:15Eliza Dumais:Yeah, yeah, I'm glad that you read the epilogue. Um, yeah, I think, uh, the happy ending is, I once interviewed Esther Perel for a story and I asked her why everyone was so obsessed with heated rivalry. Um, and she told me that people face so much uncertainty in their daily lives and some uncertainties are far greater than others. And when we look at romance, we're dealing with a small amount of uncertainty that's digestible. So much of the news is such a scary, big, dark unknown. And the slight discomfort of watching a romance come together with the caveat that it will work out in the end is such a palatable version of uncertainty.

35:01Eliza Dumais:And I think there's a lot of grace in that and there's a lot of comfort in that. And I think knowing that I had to write a happy ending helped me be a slightly more earnest writer, which isn't always my number one instinct. But I loved writing that way. I loved trying to convey the realities of falling for someone without diluting that impulse with some clever aside or a punchline. And I think that's a really valuable experience, both as a reader and as a writer.

35:39Aliza Dumais:Yeah, I think I really like that. And something I was thinking about while reading this book is the way that food and wine and restaurants have kind of fit into the romance canon for a while. I think, obviously, there's You Pray Love, Under the Tuscan Sun. There have been these books that have kind of touched on that as a topic. But to me, it seems that maybe more recently, like there's more of an interest in kind of bringing this kind of writing into fiction writing or romance writing specifically. I know that like Julia Tertian also has a book coming up with E3-1 Stories. That's a farmer kind of romance.

36:11Aliza Dumais:But I was curious, maybe just in fiction more broadly, even if you see food kind of bubbling up as a theme more often.

36:19Eliza Dumais:Yeah, I certainly do. And I think it's a really exciting thing. I think in romance in particular, my experience was that it made sense because there are so many parallels in the tactile pleasures of meeting a person, falling in love, kissing for the first time, having sex. I think there are so many ways for lengthy food descriptions to sort of mimic all of these other bodily sensory things that are happening. but I also think more and more in general media in addition to in fiction we're using food as a way to explain the world and tell stories and package up histories and share traditions and I think it's really revelatory so much great food writing isn't about food it's about some much greater, much more beautiful story And I think when you're using food as a vessel in writing, it's so revelatory of characters and how they consume it or how they prepare it or where they go to eat it.

37:31Eliza Dumais:I think it's such a rich, sensory, sort of present way of putting characters in a scene. And I think because of the way food media has grown, people are way more food fluent and I think really more excited about learning about things that they maybe don't already know about or exploring complicated culinary preparations or whatever it is. I think there's a greater knowledge base and enthusiasm about being sort of immersed in the world of cooking than there has been previously.

38:08Aliza Dumais:Yeah, I think I agree with you. And maybe it's even a parallel with learning language, like what you were saying before. If you can name the colors, then you can go further and talk about if they're making you feel sad today or something like that. Yeah, completely. Something that Alice and Alri do in the book that I think is so sweet is they keep a running list of describing what bubbles sound like. And I think this might be something you do in your real life relationship as well. And I'm curious if you would tell me some of your favorite descriptions for what bubbles sound like.

38:36Eliza Dumais:Yeah, absolutely. I don't know when I started asking people this question. I think it probably was several years ago due to sort of the various translations of what champagne sounded like in a glass. And the more people I ask, the more mesmerized I am by everyone's varying poetic sensibilities, especially across cultures and languages. My partner is a chef and his first answers were that it sounded like oil sizzling in a pan or cracked pepper. But I've heard applause. I've heard white noise. I've heard the jingle of keys, which I really like. someone once told me it sounded like walking on fresh ice and hearing it sort of gently crack.

39:29Eliza Dumais:I think it often sounds like whispering, and that's a really nice thought. But people usually have a knee-jerk answer to that question, and I am honestly moved by every answer I get.

39:40Aliza Dumais:Yeah, do you want to know mine? Yes. Well, the first thing that I thought of was very light rain on a windshield when you're driving.

39:47Eliza Dumais:Oh, I love that. A windshield feels so wonderfully specific, too. It's the best part of this game is that most people wouldn't just say the sound of rain. There's always a visual.

39:59Aliza Dumais:Because rain can sound like so many things, so I need that specific tinny, light-tapping quality. Yeah, I love that. You can almost picture the light, too. Oh, yeah, it's like filtering through. I love also the word bubble just is so satisfying to me. What is the word bubble in French? Do you know? Buh. Buh. In Spanish, it's borbucha, which is so satisfying to me to say. Incredibly. It's so round as a word. Yeah, it sounds exactly like what it is.

40:28Eliza Dumais:Yeah, I love when that happens. It's so satisfying. I learned the word in French for a sip is un lichette, which is just the cutest word and so suits what a sip is. I love that.

40:42Julia Turshen:On a recent episode of This Is Taste, we visited Colorado, a state that has been quietly and then not so quietly building one of the most exciting culinary scenes in America. From Denver's Michelin-starred restaurant boom to the peach orchards and wine country of the Grand Valley, we visited to find out why Colorado is a serious food destination and came back convinced. Check out Taste Travels Colorado, episode 786 on the This Is Taste feed. This episode is brought to you by Wayfair. I spend a lot of time in restaurants thinking about how the spaces work, and sometimes don't work. One of my favorite dining rooms in New York City is Michael's in Midtown.

41:21Julia Turshen:It's so inviting, and there's all this incredible art on the wall from Frank Stella, Jesper Johns, and David Hockney. And here's the thing. When I went home to my own outdoor space, it was kind of the opposite. There was no atmosphere or vibe, just a boring table and chairs. Wayfair helped me find a new outdoor set in zero time. Wayfair offers every style for every budget. And with over 20 million verified five-star reviews, there's no second guessing. Plus, Wayfair Verified offers hand-vetted pieces and 10-point quality inspection. So you know exactly what you're getting before it shows up at your door.

41:59Julia Turshen:Get prepped for patio season for way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com. Wayfair. Every style, every home. Wayfair. Every style, every home. You have one new message. Translating. Disney and Pixar's Hoppers is now available on Disney+. You could say that again. Critics are calling it Pixar's funniest movie ever and a wildly entertaining ride. Blizzard potato. It's certified fresh and verified hot. Now we party. This is incredible! Wow! I am clear in the rest of the day. Disney and Pixar's hoppers, now available on Disney+. Rated PG.

42:44Aliza Dumais:Okay, I could play a linguistic name game with you all day, but instead I'm going to do a rapid fire to close, so I'm going to ask you to pick some favorites, and you can just tell me the first thing that comes to mind. Perfect. Okay, this might be hard. What you would say is the most romantic wine.

42:59Eliza Dumais:Okay, I have an answer for this because I just tasted this wine last week, and I don't know that I'll ever get to taste it again because it's presumably far outside of my price range. But there's a producer in Champagne named Jacques Salos, and he obviously makes Champagne. It's mostly 100 % Chardonnay. But he has a cuvee called Substance, and it's a little bit of every vintage of wine he's ever made combined. So he makes a new one annually. So every bottle will have a vintage from 1986, the first, 1987, 1988, through the current year. So the vintage I tasted was from 2021. And that's just, I mean, the poetry alone is so moving, but it actually tasted so brilliant and so beautiful.

43:50Eliza Dumais:And I really can't think of anything more romantic than that. I love that.

43:54Aliza Dumais:Okay, what your wine of the summer is going to be.

43:58Eliza Dumais:My wine of the summer is probably the same every summer because it's my favorite in the whole world. But Tevel in France is a region that produces these super dark rosés. They're still rosé, and they're light, and they're jammy, and they're easy to drink. And there's one producer called Langelor who I think makes just the best ones in the whole world. Highly recommend. Your favorite wine bar in the world? It's a toss-up between two. Via Mas, maybe more of a restaurant than a wine bar in Costa Brava, just beautiful by the water. They have their own farm, the best tomatoes you'll ever eat, and just a biblical wine list.

44:36It goes on forever, and it's not dogmatic about natural and conventional,

44:40Eliza Dumais:and everything is so well-priced, and it's just kind of a mesmerizing experience. And the other is Eau de Zemmé in Paris, which is just sort of your perfect bar au vin. It's divy if you want it to be. It's a restaurant if you want it to be. It's sort of a jack-of-all-trades space, and the wine list is amazing, but also everyone who works there is so friendly and fun. It's hard to beat. Your favorite wine bar in New York? Also a toss-up. One part of me always wants to say Frog because it's my local wine bar, and there's no better place to sit in the backyard, But Anais in Brooklyn, I think, is just an incredibly special space to drink wine.

45:22Eliza Dumais:And it's also a remarkable place to sit and write if you'd like to do both at the same time.

45:27Aliza Dumais:Totally. Or read. They have a great selection of books there that you can pick up.

45:31Eliza Dumais:Yeah. And it's mostly, you know, Anais Nin and sort of vaguely erotic fiction. It's really fun to peruse.

45:38Aliza Dumais:The last time I was there, I read this 1960s girl detective novel called, I think it's called Women's Work or like A Woman's Job. And I didn't finish it. And honestly, I'm now remembering that I was actually quite invested in the plot of this book. So now I'm going to try to seek it out.

45:55Eliza Dumais:I love that a book where the title is A Woman's Job is actually about a detective.

46:00Aliza Dumais:Yeah, it's about her first case. So she's trying to prove herself. That's incredible.

46:06Eliza Dumais:Okay, your favorite bookstore in New York? Greenlight. They have the best author talks. They're so fun to visit. And I, you know, for a perfect afternoon, you can get a sandwich at Greengrave and then get a book at Greenlight and then go to the park. Your favorite date spot in New York? Or a favorite? I feel like I probably should say something about wine, but definitely Raoul's. I sort of love that the food's kind of bad and the martinis are great and it's classic and historic and always so full of energy. And I love not spending any time talking about the wine or the food and instead just hanging out.

46:49Aliza Dumais:Okay, finally, a fictional food scene like from a book or a movie or something made up that you wish you could eat in real life. My instinct is always to talk about ratatouille.

46:59Eliza Dumais:Classic. Which is classic, but actually a food scene I think about often is there's a breakfast scene in Call Me By Your Name where they're in northern Italy and they're eating soft-boiled eggs with apricot juice and just in this gorgeous orchard with dappled light. And it looks like the most beautiful thing to wake up to. I think about those eggs often.

47:27Aliza Dumais:Well, I love that answer. And this has been such a fun conversation. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Such a treat. Thank you. Julia Tertian, this is Tase. Thank you for coming back on the podcast.

47:40Julia Turshen:Oh, it's such a joy to be a repeat customer.

47:44Aliza Dumais:I feel like last time we spoke on the show, it was a live podcast event, which is kind of unusual and fun. And then now this time around, we're doing a kind of another unusual and fun conversation in the world of romance, which is so special.

47:58Julia Turshen:I like being thought of as unusual and fun. That sounds great.

48:02Aliza Dumais:Yeah. You know, I say that as like the highest form of praise. Oh, I take it as such.

48:07Julia Turshen:Yes.

48:08Aliza Dumais:So I guess my first question is just, I think many of the world, including myself, maybe think of you as a cookbook author, recipe developer. And how did you kind of develop an interest in writing fiction?

48:20Julia Turshen:Yeah, I mean, I guess, you know, short answer is, you know, multitudes. But longer answer is I've been an avid reader, like my whole life, and of all different genres, and an avid reader of romance for the last, I don't know, decade, maybe. and I just had gotten to a point or I guess I have gotten to a point in my work where I feel both the desire and the privilege to try something new which is not to say that I'm like done with food, I'll never be done with food I mean just personally, you know, eat every day lucky to be interested in what I'm eating and I think I'll always work in and around food And I know you've read the book, so you know that there's a lot of food in this book.

49:14Julia Turshen:And I feel like getting to write fiction and, you know, this story specifically, this, you know, queer love story about a vegetable farmer has allowed me to actually continue to write about food just in a very different way. So, yeah, it might seem a little random or, you know, out of nowhere to some folks. I totally get that. But to me, it actually doesn't feel all that different. I feel like I've always been a writer. I've always cared about, you know, the relationships we have in life. And, you know, that food is a conduit to it. So, writing the story just feels, yeah, very, I don't know, natural to me.

49:54Aliza Dumais:Yeah, I would say when I found out that you had written this book, nothing about it seemed random to me. I feel like your writing in your books is so evocative. And I think like I've always kind of had a sense that, you know, you are including these essays that I think that's a part of the book that you take very seriously. But also I think that food can be so kind of transportive and romantic and embodied. Like I think it's maybe not the kind of farthest jump that somebody could go. But I was kind of relatively new to the romance genre when I was reading your book and also Eliza Dumais' book that came out.

50:32Aliza Dumais:I mean, I've read Red, White, and Royal Blue. Like I'm not completely new, but just knowing that you have been a reader of romance, I I was curious what about that genre specifically was interesting to you when it came to writing fiction.

50:45Julia Turshen:Sure. I mean, first of all, I appreciate what you said and, you know, that it wasn't so surprising to you. And that means a lot to me, just how you described my work. So thank you. I guess romance specifically, you know, there's a lot of overlap that I have come to see between romance novels and cookbooks. in both those forms. And one of the overlaps is that I think they're both pretty formulaic books, which might sound like not the most positive thing, but I actually love that about them as both a writer now of both of those and as a longtime consumer of both of those. As a consumer, I think it's really nice to know that the book you're about to open, whether it be a cookbook or a romance novel, you know that it's going to end well, which might sound sort of silly, but I think is a very valuable thing.

51:48Julia Turshen:You don't know that with every type of fiction, but the trope of romance is it's happily ever after. And so even if there's conflict or challenges, which hopefully there are, because that makes it an interesting story, you know that no matter what, there's going to be a happy ending. So, I think that's something that they both share that is something I'm drawn to. And as a writer of both, you know, having these sort of formulas allows me to feel incredibly creative within those parameters. Sometimes I think parameters are just one of the most valuable tools when it comes to creativity. because, you know, it's like, I don't know, if I go watch TV and there's a thousand options of what to watch, I feel overwhelmed.

52:34Julia Turshen:But if you give me a smaller parameter and, you know, I choose between five things, I can make an easier choice. I don't know if that's the best analogy, but.

52:41Aliza Dumais:No, I think it makes sense. And maybe it's even a recipe analogy, right? Where if you look in your fridge and you have five things to turn into dinner, sometimes that's the best dinner. Yes, exactly. Yes. Well, I think there is a lot of similarity just in the terms of this is a book that's been created to hopefully promote pleasure for whoever is reading it. So that makes sense to me. And then, of course, the actual kind of subject of the book, which is like a gay vegetable farmer upstate love story. Of course, that's the book that you're going to write.

53:13Julia Turshen:Yes, definitely. Yeah, I mean, I think just to circle back to use a very corporate term for a moment, what you just said about pleasure, I think is so important. And I don't want that to get buried because, yeah, I think that's another overlap that cookbooks and romance both have. They're both entirely about desire. They're both about, you know, figuring out what you want and, you know, the steps to get there. So to me, that's a very fun and exciting overlap.

53:41Aliza Dumais:Totally. And I think for the sake of this conversation, like maybe we don't delve into the heaviest of spoilers, but I do kind of want to talk about plot and character development and these things with you because I loved reading the book and it's fun for me to get to talk with the author about it. So I guess I'm curious when you kind of knew that you wanted to write a romance, how is this the story that you developed and what about it was interesting to you?

54:06Julia Turshen:Sure. I got the first sort of inkling or kind of itch to write a romance way back in like March 2020 at the very start of the COVID pandemic. Understandable. Yeah, it was just this moment. And I just had this thought of like, oh, I love reading romance. You know, I don't know what's in store with this pandemic. And, you know, I have the great fortune of being able to stay home safely. And so maybe in this newly freed up time, I'm experiencing, maybe I'll just try something totally new. I opened like a Google Doc, I worked on it for, I don't know, maybe a month or two. Not like full time, just, you know, typing away here and there.

54:54Julia Turshen:And quickly found that while I enjoyed writing fiction, which is something I had only ever dabbled in in college when I studied writing, had these very concrete thoughts about characters, but just had no idea how to approach doing like a plot. Anyway, I put it on the back burner and life went on. And one of the things that happened in my life in the interim is in 2021, I worked full time at my friend's vegetable farm. I had just come out with Simply Julia, which was my 15th cookbook I had ever worked on. That includes both my own and working with other people. Um, but it was the 15th book I had worked on in 15 years and I just was a little burnt out and wanted to do something different.

55:47Julia Turshen:So I, yeah, I worked at the farm. I, um, had this totally different experience working with food. Um, you know, cause instead of just writing about vegetables and cooking them, I was growing them and working with this amazing crew and just being outside all day. I mean, totally different life. and then I kind of went back to writing and over the last few years have been incorporating just a mixture of farming and writing and you know I have a million other hobbies but those are kind of like my work endeavors and I'm getting somewhere I promise I like a year or so ago I guess more than that now but whenever Claire Mazur and Erica Cerullo when they started 831 Stories which who's publishing my book, when they started this new publishing company, I had read about it.

56:41Julia Turshen:And I just thought it sounded so cool and how they were publishing these books. And I knew them from multiple past lives. They used to have this other business called Avakind. And both my spouse, Grace, and I knew them through that and just were very friendly and all very kind of like, you know, mutually supportive of each other's careers and stuff. So I saw that they started it and I was like, huh, that's so interesting. And I totally get it because I love reading romance. I know other people who do are just as voracious, if not more, than I am. So I reached out to them and I was like, I think what you guys are doing is so fun and just honoring women's pleasure, especially, I just thought was a really cool choice business-wise in this moment and time and history.

57:35Julia Turshen:And they were like, you know, if you ever wanted to write one, and I was like, well, I sort of tried to, but I don't really know what I'm doing, but I do want to do it. And they were like, well, we'll help you. And that was kind of that. And they paired me with this incredible developmental editor who really helped me turn my outline into a very substantial first draft and then helped me turn that into a much more refined second and then third draft. And I feel like I just got to get like an MFA in writing a romance novel, working with them. And it's just been so much fun and I loved it. And I definitely, I'm not like in the works of doing another, but I definitely would love to do another one.

58:20Julia Turshen:And I've had so much fun making it and now getting to talk about it. It just feels so fun and almost funny to get to talk to you about this. Yeah, the last time we did this was about my last cookbook, which was great. But this just feels like, how fun. I don't know. I just keep using that word because that's how it feels.

58:39Aliza Dumais:I mean, that's how it should be. And I'm always so interested in process conversations and getting to work with this developmental editor. Do you remember if there was a piece of advice or an exercise that was maybe especially useful to you?

58:52Julia Turshen:Oh, my gosh. So many. I mean, one early note I had, and I think, you know, this might be something you wanted to talk about. But the book is like a dual POV book. Yes. So meaning that it's written from the perspective of both of the protagonists. And I've switched every chapter. And one early note I had, which is like so obvious, but I had trouble with was like, well, both their voices can't sound the same. And I was like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. Like they were saying different things that felt true to those characters, but just the tone of their voice, the way they spoke, the words they chose, the amount of words they would say were just kind of the same.

59:40Julia Turshen:And so having that pointed out, super helpful. and Georgia Clark is the name of the editor. She herself is also a romance novelist. Georgia also kind of took some of the dialogue I wrote and kind of showed me what it might look like to change it and like really, really tangible, helpful stuff.

1:00:00Aliza Dumais:I think maybe to take a step back, could you in like a sentence or two tell us like the premise of Down to Earth and the two characters?

1:00:08Julia Turshen:The short version is this woman named Paige moves to this tiny town, fictional town in upstate New York called Sungold, New York, with her eight-year-old son. She's getting out of a very not great marriage with a man. And she meets this woman, Frankie, who has a vegetable farm in the town that her father and grandfather before him ran. and she has basically never left Sun Gold and Frankie's gay. And yeah, the two meet. And I guess the shortest version is Sparks Fly. A lot more happens.

1:00:49Aliza Dumais:Tomato sandwiches are eaten, et cetera.

1:00:51Julia Turshen:Yes, yes, yes. Lots of tomatoes, yeah.

1:00:53Aliza Dumais:I have to say naming the town Sun Gold delighted me so much.

1:00:57Julia Turshen:Yeah, speaking of tomatoes, yes.

1:00:59Aliza Dumais:Because, you know, I think most people listening maybe similarly have a love of Sun Golds, But I would say they have become like a cult tomato, at least among people who have access to them. And I'm curious if that was like the immediate name or if you flirted with any other kind of status produce as the name for the town.

1:01:16Julia Turshen:It's so funny to think of them as like status produce. I love that. So we grow Sun Golds at Long Season Farm, which is the farm that I worked at full time in 2021 and have stayed tethered to in some way or another. And I currently work there part time. I'm there two days a week. Mondays and Fridays. Yeah. Sungolds are a tomato we grow there. So I have a lot of access to sungolds in the season. They're by far my favorite cherry tomato. And yeah, when I first worked at Long Season, I spent a lot of time harvesting them, which is incredibly time consuming and tedious. You know, you can only pick them one at a time.

1:01:59Julia Turshen:And, you know, there's quite a few in a pint. And, you know, when you're making lots and lots of pints, it's a lot. So I spent a lot of time in the Sungolds. And even though that would be a reason to perhaps resent them, just for, you know, how much labor it is to pick them, I still love them. So, yeah, I just have like this very personal connection to the tomato itself, the plant itself. That's so fun. Yeah, I also just think it's like a delightful name. And I hadn't landed on another name, but I knew I didn't want it to be a real life place. I wanted to kind of invent a place. a friend of mine who read the book actually a fellow farmer said to me something that was very meaningful which was she got the vibe that Sun Gold was sort of a place like Schitt's Creek meaning or what she meant by that what she said was like that was like a place where like homophobia didn't exist and these characters could just be in this town and yeah I knew I wanted to make a place that not necessarily like Schitt's Creek, but with that kind of feeling.

1:03:16Julia Turshen:And I thought it'd be fun to name it after, you know, a vegetable or a fruit or something. And yeah, the first one I thought of was Sun Gold and I just didn't feel like I needed to think about it more than that. It just fit.

1:03:28Aliza Dumais:I love that. And I think even our conversation around the name is so evocative and maybe gets into the kind of like vacation or upstate local dynamic. That's one of the rules, because I'm thinking of it as like, this is the tomato that I look for at the farmer's market and spend all of my money on. And you're thinking of it of like, this is this crop that I've sacrificed hours and hours of my life for, but we both kind of share this love of it. Absolutely. Yeah. Spot on. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this,

1:03:59Julia Turshen:but anyone can get the same premium wireless for$15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com slash switch.

1:04:15Aliza Dumais:Upfront payment of$45 for three-month plan, equivalent to$15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. Default terms at mintmobile.com. Capture your favorite summer feeling with Pandora jewelry. Discover a collection inspired by the sunshine, freedom, and moments that make the season unforgettable. From sun-kissed metals to personalized pieces, ready to be engraved with your summer mantra. Each design moves with you, from beach days to golden nights and every memory in between. Shop Pandora Jewelry's new summer collection in-store or online at pandora.net and let your summer unfold.

1:04:56Julia Turshen:Starting a business can seem like a daunting task, unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website, to marketing, to selling, and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz, and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into... Sign up for your$1 per month trial at shopify.com slash special offer.

1:05:25Aliza Dumais:So when I was reading the book, I think there were so many interesting dynamics at play. This kind of vacation or local one I just mentioned, the customer versus the farmer, Paige being kind of like a baby gay, somebody who's like nearer in their queerness, as opposed to Frankie, who has that as kind of an established part of her identity. What did you find interesting about having these different kind of dynamics at play? Yeah, that's such a great question.

1:05:51Julia Turshen:I guess what I found interesting is that there are dynamics that I myself am always just thinking about and experiencing. And I think what all those examples you offered have in common is, you know, this push-pull and this, like, both, I don't know, I'm thinking about the, like, established person who lives, you know, in the Hudson Valley versus the person who just moves there.

1:06:22Aliza Dumais:Right.

1:06:22Julia Turshen:Where we live, we moved here like almost 13 years ago. So, you know, over a decade. So we were, you know, the new kids on the block once upon a time, you know, very aware of our newness. And we've now been here long enough to watch, you know, different waves of people move here. The push-pull that comes with that is, you know, both the joy in loving where we live, sharing that joy and that love with so many other people. Also feeling the impact of what it is when more people move to an area and how it changes, both good and bad. And so that's just like, you know, one example. And I just think that push-pull is interesting.

1:07:04Julia Turshen:and I feel like it's in those kind of friction-y moments where you know we all just kind of like ask important questions so yeah it was nice to sort of play with a lot of those dynamics in the book and I guess my other thought on that is you know none of us none of the characters in down to earth and none of us in real life, not in Sun Gold, New York, you know, none of us live in a vacuum. You know, all these things are happening at once. And something that I found really interesting about the writing process is very similar to a cookbook. And, you know, it's about editing and it's about like, how much do you include and how much do you not include?

1:07:54Julia Turshen:And kind of whittling down what felt most essential about these dynamics to include. Totally.

1:08:03Aliza Dumais:I think that like the pleasure from a reading perspective is maybe the similar pleasure to developing a crush in real life, which is getting to learn more about these people and, you know, what are you imagining they're going to be like versus how are they actually as a person?

1:08:19Julia Turshen:Yeah, totally.

1:08:20Aliza Dumais:You mentioned a little bit about your connection to farming. And I think like that's an obvious reason why you would want to kind of set the book in this place with these characters. But I was curious if you think anything about farming and agriculture like particularly lends itself well to a romance.

1:08:36Julia Turshen:Yeah, I mean, I think I chose to set it at a vegetable farm because, you know, it's a place where I've spent a lot of time. and it was a place where I just felt like I had this, or I guess I have this huge, I don't know, like treasure trove of details to weave in. All of these little moments that happen at a farm, all these different tools I could describe and the way certain things smell and feel, all these very evocative things I could bring to life because, you know, I wanted the reader to feel very present in the story. The romance novels that I've read that I've enjoyed the most, that's a feeling I've had as a reader.

1:09:23Julia Turshen:Like, I just, I feel like I'm there. And I feel like the way I have felt that way as a reader is through, you know, access to all of these descriptions that make the setting feel like real and that I'm in it. So I felt like a farm was a place I could offer that. And I also think that there's a nice, I experienced this in real life at the farm. And I hope it feels this way in Down to Earth at Two Peas Farm, which is the name of Frankie's Farm. So cute. Yeah, that would just, I don't know, that just came to me and I was like, well, that's adorable. horrible um yeah I think there's just a feeling of um you know you're not on a screen I mean it sounds so trite but it's like I I keep finding myself when I'm working part-time these days at Long Season Farm I keep I'm like this annoying person who like every time I do something I'm like well AI can't do that you know and it's like yeah picking a tomato um And so I think it's nice to have a setting that is so just removed from the internet and everything that happens on the internet.

1:10:42Julia Turshen:And it's just, you know, not to be so punny, but, you know, it's just truly quite grounded. Yeah.

1:10:49Aliza Dumais:And I think embodiment is kind of a big theme of this book and your character, Paige, who's trying to kind of reconnect with what does she want out of her life and is trying to sort through all these questions of her identity, not just sexuality, but being a wife or a mother or just a human. So I think to have this kind of larger setting where you're learning how to do these tasks or how to look for an indication when something is ready, it seems to me be like that there's kind of many layers of connections as well.

1:11:22Julia Turshen:Yeah, yeah. And again, that's something I've experienced firsthand on the farm, like working at the farm has helped me have a much more embodied relationship with myself. And yeah, getting to sort of show Paige, discovering that, and getting to show what it's like for someone who was raised in that, for Frankie to be this person who's like quite comfortable in her body. um yeah getting to show both of those things felt really valuable yeah I loved reading those scenes

1:11:55Aliza Dumais:like between the two of them especially when they're becoming more physically intimate and understanding how to relate to each other's bodies I feel like I'm not surprised that you wrote that in such a considered way because I know that that's been a theme in your books as well but it was really enjoyable for me to kind of see your point of view being shown in a slightly different kind of writing style. Yeah, I really appreciate that.

1:12:15Julia Turshen:Yeah, one thing that I didn't say, and that you wouldn't know without reading the book, is Frankie is a fat character. And yeah, as I mentioned before, is quite comfortable in her body. And it was very important to me to have her be desired by Paige without any disclaimer. and yeah getting to explore embodiment for both of these characters as individuals and together but especially with that layer in it just yeah that's come up a lot in my work personally you and I had discussed that the last time we spoke because it was a part of my last cookbook just writing very openly and honestly about my relationship with my own body that's something I've shared a lot about, like having a history of disordered eating and reconciling that with being a cookbook author who, you know, has had this very happy relationship with cooking, but not with eating.

1:13:15Julia Turshen:And so, yeah, that's been a big part of my life and a big part of my work. So, yeah, I wanted it to be a part of this book, but in a way that wasn't as, I don't know what the right word is, didactic, I guess, and just more, yeah, part of the story.

1:13:32Aliza Dumais:Yeah, I feel like it's not, there's no big wind up there, right? There's no like trauma that's lurking beneath. It's more of like, this is work these characters have already done before they've reached this point of meeting each other. Yeah. And I guess maybe while we're talking about the kind of themes at play in the book, I know that there are so many wonderful queer romance books and that's not a new genre, but I was curious what it felt like for you to be writing a romance that was specifically queer.

1:13:59Julia Turshen:Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine writing otherwise. A straight one? I'm like, oh my god, could I write a heterosexual romance? I guess I could. But I don't know, that wouldn't, I feel like I would have a hard time. I know it exists, I just don't see that many examples of it. That was a little mean to some of my straight friends. I love you all. um anyway I felt like you know while none of the characters in the book are based on me or Grace and our our relationship nor are any of the characters based on anyone at Long Season Farm I just want to be very clear just the setting um you know queer love queer romance is is the love and romance I know I guess I know what it feels like or what it has felt like for me.

1:14:56Julia Turshen:And I got to figure out as best I could what it feels like for these two women, for Paige and Frankie. You know, I also just feel really strongly, I know it's, I don't know, a bit more cliche to say these days, but I still think it's really important, just like the power of visibility and the more stories, you know, we see, the better. And I know what it has felt like to be a very openly proud queer cookbook author and, you know, talking about myself, my life, my cookbooks, and the connection that has fostered between me and the people who come to my books has just been incredibly meaningful to me.

1:15:40Julia Turshen:So to, yeah, to get to expand, I guess, how I express my queerness through fiction just feels like, I don't know, just like what an honor to get to do that.

1:15:54Aliza Dumais:No, I think it obviously is so core to the book in a beautiful way. And also the fact that Paige as a character is kind of maybe later in her life coming into this part of herself. I do think that's a story that maybe isn't told as often. That is just as important to be telling and maybe resonant for people in different ways.

1:16:14Julia Turshen:Yeah, yeah. No, I appreciate that. I think that's a really nice point.

1:16:18Aliza Dumais:I've been thinking a lot about food and the role that it plays, obviously in romance in general, and then in this book specifically. And I think one moment that comes to mind, I know we've been talking about tomatoes a lot, but are the tomato sandwiches that are being made on the farm and Paige having this moment of kind of like the aha moment of a tomato sandwich can taste this good. And I was curious if you thought at all about how you wanted to use food moments in the book maybe beyond the agriculture, the growing of the food to be showing how these characters relate to each other or pleasure kind of things along those lines?

1:16:53Julia Turshen:I think that just like we were talking about before, like all the details about the farm or about, you know, vegetable farming in general that I could draw on for the book, I feel like all the things we talked about with that apply, of course, with food itself. Like, it's just so rich with these descriptive possibilities. And I think he used the word transportive before. And the way that reading about food, whether it's growing it, preparing it, eating it, thinking about it, reading those things is just, yeah, so transportive, so evocative. and there is just such potential in these moments for these characters to come together to learn about each other but also for the reader to kind of be there too yeah there's this really delightful moment in the book where it's at the very beginning of Frankie and Paige getting to know each other and Frankie invites Paige to stay for lunch with the crew and they put together this like mountain of tomato sandwiches.

1:18:08Julia Turshen:You know, within that, there's a lot happening. There's, you know, Frankie kind of welcoming Paige into her world, Paige getting to meet the farm crew, getting to sit with them at the picnic table and kind of feel that camaraderie. There's this whole group of people enjoying the tomatoes that they themselves grew and enjoying them at their kind of ripest, most wonderful moment and not overcomplicating things and just having this kind of feast, even though it's like so simple, you know, it's just, you know, white bread and mayo and tomatoes and salt and pepper. It's like, to me, just like a perfect sandwich.

1:18:49Aliza Dumais:Right. That's all you need.

1:18:50Julia Turshen:Yeah. And there's potato chips and there's like cold seltzer. And it's just very, I don't know, it just feels like to me a moment that I feel lucky to have had moments like that in my life, whether it's at the farm or at summer camp or in my backyard with Grace. And I just, I live for those moments. Like those just like really simple, but very satisfying moments. And, you know, it's the sandwich, but it's also the company and it's the abundance of the sandwiches. And it's like the pause in the day. And, you know, it's all those things.

1:19:29Aliza Dumais:Totally. And it is, you know, it doesn't require a recipe to know how they're making these sandwiches, although you do give that context. But part of me sees a future like cookbook romance book double feature, you know?

1:19:44Julia Turshen:Well, I don't know exactly when this is coming out, but I believe if you go to, I should know the like website. It's like 831stories.com slash down to earth. I believe if this is coming out after the book comes out, there are some recipes there. And if this is before.

1:20:03Aliza Dumais:There will be. They're coming. Yes. I'm not sure exactly the timing. If it comes out a little before, is it okay that you're kind of hinting that the recipes will be there? Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool.

1:20:11Julia Turshen:Yeah. Leave them wanting, right?

1:20:13Aliza Dumais:Yeah. I mean, I'm happy that what I said was in line. I was like, Julia is going to say I'm giving her even more work to do. Is it a tomato sandwich recipe or are there other recipes?

1:20:24Julia Turshen:Well, you'll just have to see.

1:20:25Aliza Dumais:Okay. Okay. Build the suspense.

1:20:27Julia Turshen:Yes. I mean, there's the tomato sandwich. But like you said, I mean, you don't need a recipe for it. But I did write one down if that makes anyone feel comforted.

1:20:36Aliza Dumais:Extra safe and held.

1:20:37Julia Turshen:Yes. Yes.

1:20:38Aliza Dumais:I guess talking about the release, knowing that these recipes are coming out, How else are you planning on kind of celebrating this book and bringing it to life?

1:20:45Julia Turshen:I'm doing just like a couple of events, not like a big extensive book tour. And I'm very excited for those. One is in Brooklyn at Books for Magic, actually with Casey McQuiston, who wrote Red, White, and Royal Blue, which you mentioned before. Iconic queer romance writer. and then I'm going to Los Angeles and I'm doing an event at the very wonderfully named romance bookstore, The Ripped Bodice. There's also one in Brooklyn. But yeah, I'm going to do the event in LA and then one event local to me in the Hudson Valley.

1:21:23Aliza Dumais:I really like hearing about all of those events and maybe just because I've been thinking about the connections between romance books and cookbooks throughout this conversation and also the conversation I had with Eliza Tume, who had her great grape juice wine world book come out. To me, also like the specialty bookstore seems like a big through line between like romance increasingly that's happening. And there are a lot of great kind of food bookstores that are being created. I often like to ask cookbook authors how working on the book maybe impacted their home cooking. I'm wondering if there's maybe a parallel here in terms of how writing a romance impacted how you view the farm or your relationships or like maybe even food in some kind of way.

1:22:04Julia Turshen:Yeah. I love that. Like as the alternative question. I mean, as I mentioned, this is the story between Frankie and Paige. It's not me and Grace. But it definitely made me like, I don't know, getting to write this love story just made me so appreciate the one I get to experience. And not that I didn't appreciate it before. but yeah, it just, I don't know. I always feel very grateful for Grace. So I felt a lot of that. I mean, just in the experience of completely trying something new and putting myself out there in a very different way as a writer and writing sex scenes that my parents have read.

1:22:50Julia Turshen:It's weird. I guess the impact on my relationships has been, I mean, it's still fresh because the book's not even out yet as we're having this conversation. Like I've shared it with some family and close friends, but yeah, getting to share myself as a writer in this very different way with people I'm close to feels quite vulnerable, to be honest. I love that. I love doing things that I haven't done before. I love learning new things. and I like putting myself out there and I think it's a gift to be able to do that. And yeah, so I would say that's maybe a little bit about how it's impacted my relationships.

1:23:37Aliza Dumais:I think that's a great point and it is such a fun and sweet and layered book. Like I think there's so many things about it that are special. So you should feel happy that you can share that part of yourself with more people. That's so nice. Thank you so much, Julia. This has been so fun.

1:23:52Julia Turshen:Oh, thank you. It's just a pleasure to talk to you. And I appreciate, you know, you reading the book so closely and thoughtfully. And it just means a lot.

1:24:06Aliza Dumais:This is Taste is hosted and produced by Matt Rodbard and me, Eliza Abarbanel. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergang Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skurzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com. And make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.

1:24:40Julia Turshen:The most memorable gifts aren't found, they're made. Zazzle is a custom marketplace where you pick any product. A mug, a card, a tote, a phone case, and make it personal. A photo, a name, an inside joke. The kind of gift that actually fits the person. That's what 30 million customers have been coming back to Zazzle for over 20 years to find. Right now, save 25 % on your first order at Zazzle.com.

1:25:07Aliza Dumais:That's Zazzle.com. Make it z-amazing.