788: Everybody Has an Opinion About Dean's with Jess Shadbolt

22:26Well, you got Tommy Hunt on the payroll. We just had a great conversation with him a few weeks back and he, you know, he's like the wolf from Pulp Fiction. Yeah, exactly. I'm paraphrasing, but he's like the fixer and it seemed like bringing him into the group was a cool thing. Yeah, and he particularly did a lot of work at Jupiter as well And I think that that was like, for us, it's been such a wicked experience. It's been such a ride, like opening that kind of scale restaurant. Obviously, we had no idea about that kind of volume. King's a 34-seat restaurant.

23:02Jess Shadbolt:Jupiter's like 110. In Rock Center, in a physical space that I can imagine is quite challenging. And we opened, we literally opened on the, I think like the 18th of November or even the 20th, I think it was like five days before Thanksgiving. And the tree came up and then we were just flooded. And then it was Christmas and we were like doing like 2000 covers a day. It was insane. And so it's been, you know, in that restaurant, such a, you know, it kind of changes. It's so seasonal. Yeah. And it expands and it contracts like all the time. It's just like the complete other end of scale to King. And it's been such a great kind of learning curve to kind of really get your chops around it.

23:46I mean, you've really stuck it out there. I know that was a big project to relaunch Rock Center's food offerings. And many of you who started aren't there anymore. I mean, many haven't been able to stick it out. You have, upon reflection, was that a good decision to move up there? Definitely. You know, like, listen, if you'd said to me in 2016 that we'd have a restaurant in Rockefeller Center, there's 110 seats. I would have been like, you are nuts, like bonkers, no way. And like, what an opportunity to be in one of the most iconic places in the city. Annie is a New Yorker. She was like, this is really major for her.

24:22You know, it really kind of meant something to her. And of course, as the tourist, the outsider, I was just like, this is insane. Like, has it been easy? No. Has it been a major challenge? Yes. Has it been an incredible, like, learning opportunity? For sure. Like, and I think, you know, you have to, well, I always say now that you just have to run a really big restaurant, like a really small restaurant. That's hard to do. And that is really hard to do. And like, you know, we're making all our handmade pastas.

24:49Jess Shadbolt:And the team has, you know, and to be honest, we've had the same team pretty much since opening, only recently. Have we got a new chef there? And he's doing a great job, Philip. And, like, you know, it really, like, continues to surprise me of, like, what you can do there. And it's a completely different customer. And, like, we're always thinking about, like, who are those people. It's, like, you know, it's obviously some people from Rockefeller Center and the surrounding area and, like, the workers and things like that. But also, you know, you've got, like, little Johnny and his family from wherever they're coming in from.

25:27From all over the world. All over the world, yeah. I mean, it's truly one of the biggest destinations. Is it like making money? Is it profitable? Yeah. And I think, I mean, we have this great outdoor terrace now.

25:35Jess Shadbolt:So we've got like a footprint on the ice rink, but during the summer, obviously on the concourse there right outside Prometheus. We've done like loads of weddings there. That's just so cool. So you're out. I didn't know you had outdoor space. No, people don't know. It's great to know. And it's like, and so, you know, I'm always like sit there and you're having like a, you know, Campari soda. Yeah. I was looking at Prometheus and we always were like, oh, it's sort of like the New York equivalent of St. Mark's Square. Almost. Not quite. But, you know, that's a sort of like how we're trying to transport people.

26:07Yeah. I think that that's like, you know, it's so great to be able to have that spot. Well, I got to get up there because I think I went early and just need to need to pay another visit. Well, let's go back to Dean's. I mean, Jess, this is like a big decision, right, to open such a personal restaurant. You're naming after a living person from your hometown, a fisherman. did you just always want to open a public house in New York and do it your way? I always wanted to do something that had that sort of coastal spirit, you know, like kind of come from this little town. I bought the fishing hut next to Dean on a whim.

26:49Jess Shadbolt:And it didn't really, I don't even know if I've officially purchased it It was just written on the back of a, like, I'm not even joking, like an invoice. The guy was like, one, fishing hut, like, and signed it. Like, I'm not even sure if it's legally binding. No attorneys have looked at their document. No, yeah, exactly. Suffolk County Council, don't come for me. Big listeners of the show. Yeah, I hear. The council, I get letters from them all the time. They're in my inbox, yeah. But originally, many, many years ago, I wanted to do a pop-up there and he was going to bring in the fish, Dean. And I was like, I'll just put it on the grill and cook it.

27:28Jess Shadbolt:And I mean, this place is like the hut is like 18 feet by 25. It's like tiny. And so, I don't know. I feel like things, from my perspective, I always want to create something that just kind of comes from within and like feels very kind of true to what I want and like how I want to eat and drink. It's certainly true of King. It's certainly true of Jupiter in that sort of like more urban setting like Dean's. Yeah, I always want to kind of slightly transport people somewhere. And I think, you know, food is so evocative, isn't it? And I feel like that space is, you know, I'm trying to do the same thing there.

28:10And yeah, it feels personal, But also it's like it's it's like fun.

28:14Jess Shadbolt:You know, I think after 10 years of like really, you know, and not to say that it's not serious. It is. And we've worked really hard. And there's like a technicality to that kind of cooking that we're not even and consistency. That's like kind of new to the more spirited cooking of like King and Jupiter or Italian food or, you know. And so it is fun. And it's like, you know, what a great moment to kind of like shine a light on something. It's so cool how the three of you, you know, Claire, of course, in the Hudson Valley with Stissinghouse. Yeah. Annie with Leigh, which is an absolute smash success.

28:51Incredible. Great place. And of course, now with Dean's, you've got your own personal project. The three of you really have the vision. I mean, it's amazing that the three of you are operators and chefs. and it all comes together with these highly personal projects. I mean, did the three of you have this on your board that you would have King as the anchor and then you would go out and open stuff? No, no, no, never that. Like, we were never that organized. We were always catching our tails a little bit. But I think, you know, life takes, you know, shape in ways

29:23Jess Shadbolt:and people's needs change and evolve, you know. Like, I think Stissinghouse came from a place of, I mean, not to speak for her, but she was spending more time there, You know, like Annie wanted a moment where she could really kind of like shine the light on her, you know, wines and like what she was doing both at King and Jupiter. But like, how can you do it in a place where it's really kind of celebrated? Yeah. I never, you know, I'm one and done. I'm like from the river. I was just like, I'm very happy at King. Thank you very much. I just like love being there. I love cooking there. I love like, and so I was in no rush to go.

29:58And River Cafe model just having one restaurant. Exactly.

30:00Jess Shadbolt:And I was just like, I don't need to go out and do anything. And then, and I believe that like more is not necessarily like better. And I believe that like, you know, King is such an, like everything I believe to be true is like in King. And like from a food perspective, like how I think about the menu and how, you know, like I want to work with the team. Like everything goes into that. And I was honestly a bit like, I don't know if I've got anything else. Like, I just love what I do there. And then the space came up next door to King. And we thought about, you know, was it going to be Cafe King?

30:46Jess Shadbolt:We do a Cafe King in the mornings from the front bar room at King at the moment. And I was like, oh, maybe we could do that. And I just thought that felt like it would detract from King in a way. Like I just sort of felt like, and so it was, you know, we were trying to think about how to utilize space. And we were like, should we expand here? All of these like thoughts. And then I was like, you know, it's such a sort of special place. I was like, let's not fuck with it. And so it was thinking about how, like what else? And then I was like, well, the only other thing I've got rattling around is like somewhere just to like have a few pints and eat some delicious, simple food.

31:23That's so cool. Well, so you raised your hand in the group meeting and you're like, I got this idea. I was like, why don't we just, you know. So, yeah. Was it a hard sell for your partners to get that one? No, I don't think so. Everyone just like supports like what you want to do. I love it. I had to, the hard sell was like putting a few things, getting a few things on the menu through Annie. She was like, New Yorkers aren't going to like that. So that's right. I mean, you have like Stargazy, which is not an easy hang for some New Yorkers. I personally thought it was delicious. I know, but you know, poor Tina, well, Angelis is our chef.

31:56She, we went through so many iterations of that. And apparently people don't really like mackerel.

32:03Jess Shadbolt:But anyway, now what we do is we confit the mackerel before. Yeah. And then we flake that through. And so actually what we were finding is like, if we were cooking it raw in the filling, like it was kind of really kind of making that flavor super intense. So kind of mellowed it out, actually get a better texture as well. by gently like poaching it in oil. I personally enjoyed it full rip. I love the mackerel flavor. But yeah, I think New Yorkers are pussies when it comes to oily. Well, and heads like staring at you apparently is the thing. Wait, so people thought they like did not like that? No, I mean, I think people, I mean, we just needed to make it a little bit more friendly.

32:41And I think, you know, the other thing is like the fish and chips. Like I was, I'm not like, I don't really like fish and chips, if I'm honest. It's not like a big thing. In fact, I never eat them when we're in Albra. Is it because it's too fried?

32:59Jess Shadbolt:No, I just sort of find it a really boring thing to eat. It's like a kind of a similar texture and flavor across the whole plate, personally. And in fact, I never really think, you know, a good fish and chips is a good fish and chips. and I mean the ones we get out of the bag at home not necessarily get a bit sweaty like anyway and so Annie was like we've got to put fish and chips on the menu I was a bit like oh what a shame but actually um she we you know we umdenied about it and I'm glad we did the only thing is is that's all anyone's ordering which is like yeah don't just order the fish and chips my guys like it's not there's so much other cool things I know put the liver on then I was like actually it's so like literally when an order for the liver comes in, I like want to ring the bell and be like, well done.

33:49Jess Shadbolt:Who is ordering the liver and bone marrow? They need, yeah. Yeah, the coronation salad. I mean, you got so many cool dishes on there. Yeah, the coronation salad. You know, that's a must order on there. I had to like obviously compare the like dame fish and ship with yours. I mean like Dame and Lourdes, like they've definitely, especially Lourdes, like they've been like the British gastropole of the moment. Now you're here. I know. Are you guys in conversation with those operators? I mean, Ed and Patricia, we see like they come to Cafe King most mornings. We always see them. We're like neighbors, you know, and they open Cravete, which is like sort of beautiful Provence, but like, you know, I feel like there's space in this town for everyone.

34:33And like, you know, I think they definitely paved the way on the old fish and chip front.

34:38Jess Shadbolt:But I've actually never had – I should have had theirs. It's much larger. It's like the format. Right. I feel – because I had them pretty close to each other. I feel yours are like a little more measured. I liked your – Are you saying small? No, yours aren't small. This is funny because we – No, no, theirs is just oversized. Yours is like proportional and there's a good ratio. I think it's like six ounces of fish. No, no, no. Don't get me wrong. Like I thought that theirs is just like hanging off the plate and yours is a little more proportional. I liked your fry better. I like a lighter fry. Well, we actually put Old Speckled, so we've got two beers on tap.

35:12Old Speckled Hen is one of them. So crazy that you have it on tap. Yeah, but we put that in the beer batter. Got it, got it.

35:17Jess Shadbolt:And so I think, you know, as I said, I'm not a, I'm not a, whatever the word is, like a professional when it comes to beer batter. I mean, it's pretty simple, straightforward batter, but I think it's really lovely. It kind of gives that nice, yeah, I think it's a good beer. I mean, crunch, frankly. Like if you're doing ASMR videos, you know, you're going to get a big one over at yours at Dean's. And Old Speckle on Tab, not many places have it. Like Peculiar Pub probably has it, but like not many spots. That was an Annie's choice. We were trying to get some Adnams, which is obviously from Suffolk, which I love.

35:56It's just been difficult, like with the supply and like tariffs and things like that. And what's available. But we've got some other great, we're serving Fisher's Gin, which is distilled like on the beach in Auburn. It's like wild. It's so funny when I see the bottle, I think how far that little bottle's traveled. It's very personal. So like speaking of that, you know, you're doing King for 10 years and it certainly isn't a British restaurant. I mean, it feels more New York than anything. And so are you observing that British cuisine is having a real moment in the States? Like I think people are writing smarter about it.

36:30They're certainly bucking this idea that we're not even going to mention that people thought they knew what British food was. And at some point, did you realize there was a business opportunity? Or were you just like also just a little bit homesick and wanted to have a restaurant that was very much you from home? Yeah, I think, I don't know. I never think about these things as a business opportunity.

36:53Jess Shadbolt:Like that's always like the second phase. it's always the bit that comes first is from a creative point of view and annie's always trying to make it more of a business opportunity but um thank goodness someone is thinking about that um and so i think you know what was happening was like a few of these like i don't know i think you know been really inspired by that kind of regional cooking of like france and italy for so long i've like read about it like educated myself on it being taught to cook it it's been like you know every day at king there's something had been for 10 years like a new dish like we've been really kind of like zoning in on these areas and then after a while like we started just to i started just to like look at like you know we've got this like um whipped smoked cod's row and we're getting fresh cod's row from montauk and we're smoking it and then we're whipping it and that's a very british dish and then one day i put like potted crab or potted lobster on the menu with like a melba toast and and then all the dishes like a lot of the british influences coming in through the desserts like we were doing summer pudding we were doing a tree called tart like um and so i feel like this just you know you just sort of start to kind of be inspired i think to your point like there's a bit of nostalgia like as you say i've been here 10 years and i and i think like i've always thought british food was amazing i think like the food in london is has been like toe-to-toe with New York oh my god if not and even 10 years ago I remember everyone like bashing London and I was like I think it's way better like some of the really great restaurants and this is before Mountain this is before like St.

38:33John bread and wine but like

38:35Jess Shadbolt:small spots like duck soup or you know like and like you think about like there's really there were really great restaurants doing really good things with great ingredients like at a time when I don't think we were seeing it as much here so yeah I think it was a bit of nostalgia I think it was just also I really you know do a lot of cooking at home for friends and I have a lot of British friends here but obviously I've made some wonderful American friends and so introducing them to like Well you have more British friends I kind of do but I'm introducing them to like Sunday lunch and you know toad in the hull and all of those things and it'd be really fun to kind of like and they would be like what is this and anyway so it was like so it was never a trend like it was just purely a thought of like oh this is something else that is real like in terms of like what I love and that's where it came from.

39:31How do you do the mushy peas? I have to ask because they were delicious, very different from perception and I felt like there was really something something there was unique something going on.

39:41Jess Shadbolt:Well there's a lot of mint in there. Exactly that's what it is. And also probably a naughty amount of butter. Well, of course. And I think we use, yeah, a mint. And then we, you know, use that blanching water to sort of break down the pea before mounting it with the butter. I see. So you're using the blanching water, meaning you're like blanching it and reintroducing the water. Yeah, a little bit. Obviously not a lot. Yeah, yeah. Into like the mash. Yeah. And then obviously a naughty amount. We played around with stock and things like that. We wanted to keep it vegetarian. But I think it's pretty straightforward.

40:17Yeah, no, but I think the mint and like having a good mint and picking the right one just like energizes, turbocharges the peas. And also these are, but they're not particularly starchy.

40:30Jess Shadbolt:And I think that that can often, when you get like a flowery pea, that's fine. What about the summer and menu additions? What are you looking at? Because I think you will have a more, you know, it seems like a more formatted menu here. But I can't believe, I mean, you're going to add some ingredients from the summer. Yeah. And actually, it was such a moving target, the opening, that it was like we started, you know, when we were thinking about the menu, we didn't really, you know, the menu came about, as always, sort of almost last. Because it was like, well, we don't know when we're going to be opening.

41:03Jess Shadbolt:One point we were doing this wicked beef stew with a suet dumpling that sort of sat like a hat on top of it. And then we were like, oh, I think we're going to open in March. We just needed something lighter. But I was also talking to our chef Tina about it the other day, and she sort of looked at me as if to say, not now, because we're just getting our. But, yeah, you know, we really want to, you know, I think it's really interesting to see what fish is about to come. This is like the exciting point in the year when things start to arrive. And I think we're thinking about some of the crabs, some of the shellfish, like what's coming in.

41:40And we're kind of getting to that point of like, OK, we're going to see some exciting things, shrimp, all off the East Coast.

41:47Jess Shadbolt:And obviously then, you know, we're into sort of samphire and we're waiting on the tomatoes. And, you know, I think we're going to have some fun with some of those things. But it's hard also when you start to open and there's a change in season because you want everyone to experience the thing that you put out there first as well. And it's like, you know, that salad is great, the Coronation salad, because it doesn't rely on any seasonal ingredients, right? But like, should it be there all year round? Maybe not. Oh, I think you got to keep it. You got to keep it. And it's hard to open in March because you kind of lose half your menu pretty quickly after all the reviews have been made.

42:30So it's a different restaurant. But also you're up for the challenge. But it's also nice. I mean, it's kind of weird cooking the same food every day as well. Some would say. Absolutely. So Dean Fryer is a real guy. He's Dean Fryer, yeah. Dean Fryer. He is of Dean's. And what's the story about him actually coming to New York? Well, he was supposed to come and he, well, it coincided with the arrival of Bass, the start of Bass season, as he told me.

42:59Jess Shadbolt:And he was a bit nervous about coming originally because he wasn't too keen on flying. Yeah. But I managed to convince him, say him and his wife are going to come. But we, I actually just had a baby as well. Yeah. And so. Congratulations. Thank you. And so I was a bit like, Dean, I don't know if I can do the baby thing, open the restaurant thing and like give you the tour of your life. Because when you come over here, we are going to go for it. So we've put it off to September and he's going to come and yeah, we're going to do something fun at the restaurant and I'm going to show him New York.

43:34And I really, really, really want, if anyone out there can help, I want to, like, take him, we've talked to a few people, but out in Montauk and, like, take him out fishing. Go out in the boats.

43:46Jess Shadbolt:Yeah, go out in the boats. See what it's like on that whole kind of, on this East Coast, because he's obviously fishing off the East Coast of England. And, yeah, I would love to do a little day trip. I bet you'll find a skipper who will bring on a couple of board. And so he's a fisherman, right? Yeah. So he's like a commercial fisherman. Well, I mean, commercial, yes. I mean, he does sell to the town and he sells on, you know, from his heart to the kind of to sort of retail. But yes, he's like out every day. It's about five miles offshore. He's on his boat, spring tide. And it's not a huge yield.

44:22Jess Shadbolt:You know, he's not. It's an incredible life. And he is a absolute charming man. And he is just so hardworking. and he has three daughters and um he was like i don't know if anyone's gonna like take on the boat but uh he has been on fishing from albora beach you know his whole life um and so um we've you know we've always just really got on and um he's very unassuming and so when i told him i was like how do you feel about that and he was like you know he feels very very thrilled in fact i saw something someone posted someone wrote outside his on his little shack on the on the chalkboard so good someone named a restaurant after oh that's really really fun so it's gotten back to him obviously oh yeah yeah for sure he's like a local legend now now he's a local legend and he'll be a legend in new york yeah he is i kind of i really want to take i want to take him to times square and i want him holding a fish like in the middle of times square and his like yellow waders and You have to get that photo.

45:27I know, I know. It's like that's the shot for the trip. He will appreciate his family well. So like the three of you, how often do you see each other? You, Claire, and Annie. Are you like in contact? And you're like friends, right? Yeah, of course. We're going to the edible schoolyard dinner tomorrow night. Good. But, you know, I mean, Claire's got four kids. Annie's got two.

45:46Jess Shadbolt:I'm out the gates with my first. And, yeah, you know, like Annie and I sort of take on King. and Annie's obviously got her own project late. Claire's very busy and doing great things at Stissing House. Yeah. But we just, you know, the cookbook came out in November, I think it is. So yeah, you know. You're very busy people and you have these families, but you do like get together and talk ideas and stuff? Not so much now because I think, you know, we, like, as I said, you know, everything's in play. You know, we've kind of, Jupiter's like rolling, King sort of, you know, but we're talking about how we're going to celebrate King 10 years and, you know, we've got a lot to celebrate.

46:32Jess Shadbolt:I love that. On a recent episode of This Is Taste, we visited Colorado, a state that has been quietly and then not so quietly building one of the most exciting culinary scenes in America. From Denver's Michelin-starred restaurant boom to the peach orchards and wine country of the Grand Valley, we visited to find out why Colorado is a serious food destination. and came back convinced. Check out Taste Travels Colorado, episode 786 on the This Is Taste feed. This episode is brought to you by Rula. Finding a great therapist is hard. Finding one who actually takes your insurance, that's where most online platforms fall short.

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47:47I spend a lot of time in restaurants thinking about how the spaces work, and sometimes don't work. One of my favorite dining rooms in New York City is Michael's in Midtown. It's so inviting, and there's all this incredible art on the wall from Frank Stella, Jesper Johns, and David Hockney. And here's the thing. When I went home to my own outdoor space, it was kind of the opposite. There was no atmosphere or vibe, just a boring table and chairs. Wayfair helped me find a new outdoor set in zero time. Wayfair offers every style for every budget. And with over 20 million verified five-star reviews, there's no second guessing.

48:26Plus, Wayfair Verified offers hand-vetted pieces and 10-point quality inspection. So you know exactly what you're getting before it shows up at your door. Get prep for patio season for way less. Head to wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com. Wayfair. Every style, every home. Wayfair. Every style, every home. On This Is Taste, we ask guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid-fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready, Jess? Oh, yeah, I think so. The best fruit? Gooseberry. Tell me about it.

49:02Jess Shadbolt:Well, I like how surprising it is. It's sort of like puckering, but also like it's sort of it really like brings its own force against like some softly whipped cream or like a grilled mackerel. You know, it kind of is a surprising. I love that versatility. It's cool. The worst vegetable. The worst vegetable. I've got to think about Padron peppers. Why? Slimy. I just think I hate seeing them on a menu. I feel like they're lazy. I don't know what they they're a vehicle for salt from all I can really kind of like gather I don't know I don't think that the world would be missing much strong take I love it what is your typical breakfast typical breakfast is Greek yogurt to be honest almonds and then I love bee pollen and I get it from Zaney Farms which Fort Greene Market and yeah I love it is that for health?

50:03for flavor? Well, flavor. Apparently it's good for your immune system. Good for immune. I mean, I love that. The best dessert. Best dessert. I don't know. I love, I always love a lemon sorbet with the vodka poured over it. We did it at King and it's my grandpa's favorite dessert, a colonel, very sort of classic Southern French dish. I'm not a big dessert person. So I think that is like, it's like both a palate cleanser and another drink. After drink. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's perfect. I love that. A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead. Well, I would say we grew up going to this restaurant called La Tista in a very small town in Essex.

50:50Jess Shadbolt:And it was run by Baptista and his wife, Paola. And it was true, like, Italian cooking. and she made the green raviolis and it was like breadsticks at the table and I used to, my dad used to make me have the veal payard with this like rocket and like green bean salad and make me have mustard and like, it was just like, I love, it felt so real and honest and it was, like they were, you know, she was in the kitchen, he was out front and it really sadly closed and it was my introduction to sort of like dinner out. And I kind of think about it a lot. Veil pie art. Delicious. Love that. Have you done a tribute ever?

51:34Yeah, but we do it with the eye round. But yeah, it would be like the side. It was like bigger than my face. And actually that salad, it was like chopped rocket, blanched like broccoli, green beans,

51:49Jess Shadbolt:like haricot vert and pine nuts. And it would be all room temperature with like olive oil and balsamic vinegar. And yeah, I love that. I mean, that was my favorite. Such a cool kind of scene that you set up there. Yeah. When you're craving fast food, where are you going? It doesn't happen often, but I do love a pizza, but I'm not like religious about where I go for it. You know, like I kind of, I'll take whatever. You'll take a quick slice. I'll take it. I mean, I love like those really super thin, like a Roman style pizza. I used to have to make them at the cafe and they would always be like, any chance you can make them round?

52:32Jess Shadbolt:They were always like oblong shapes. I love that. Your favorite city to visit for food in the world? Well, it's got to be London, hasn't it, really? And it's home. There's just so much there. I'm always amazed by what's happening in London when I go back. But if it weren't London, I really think Venice. I think there's some incredible food there. And the access to the produce and the fish market is insane. And, yeah, I mean, it's an absolute dream to eat. I want to get your racks in Venice because we have a lot of Florence people on the show. And Florence is one of the best cities underrated. But Venice doesn't get – because it's so touristy, right?

53:17You've got to go in February. Yeah, exactly.

53:19Jess Shadbolt:That's the time to go. And you've got to just, yeah. I went with my sister. Well, actually, we went just as COVID was starting. But that was the last time just in 2020. But I think that it's like there's some great stuff. I love it. I'm going to hit you up for that. Last one, your favorite sandwich. Oh, favorite sandwich. You cannot beat a baguette jambon burr. That is like absolute heaven. And I actually had the Frenchet Bakery one the other day. And I called my dad to tell him how good it was because it reminded me of being in France. Oh, that's sweet. Yeah. You just had to dial him up. I was like, this is the best sandwich I've had for ages.

54:00It's so good. Jess, this has been a great conversation. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste.

54:06Jess Shadbolt:Thanks for having me.

54:10Amber Mayfield Hewitt, welcome to This Is Taste. So great to meet you. Yes, thank you for having me and great to meet you too. I'm excited to chat with you because we've had our share of entertaining books and cookbooks mostly. And this book is not a cookbook. It's more of a self-help how to entertain book. But you know what, Amber, you're a professional. These other authors, cookbook authors, they think they throw cool parties, but you do it for a living. I do. I plan dinner parties for a living, which is a wild job, but I love it. You clearly love it. And we'll get to the book. But before that, I mean, when you're living in New York and you're out and about restaurant-wise, where have you been going out recently?

54:49So in New York City, I love to go to Grand Mercy Tavern. My friend, Aretta Itar, is the chef de cuisine there, and she just runs a strict program. Like, she stricts with me in real life, so to, like, admire her in the kitchen and then see her work is always very cool. And then if I may say somewhere that's not in New York City. Sure, of course. So I live in Westchester and I like this spot called the Pelican Room in Pelham. Yeah. Take the train up. It's right on Main Street. They're doing something really cool over there. They've got a cool bar. Like that's a spot I like to just drop into and be at the bar having a burger.

55:24I love that call. Westchester, I live in Orange County, so I'm out of the city as well. You know, we don't give Westchester enough credit. There's some great spots. There's some great spots. That one's definitely the one I feel like I'm a regular at. That's a nice bit of a regular. That's great. Well, we have lots to cover. Your Turn to Host is the title of the book. And I just want to go back to my original point. You do this for a living. When you're thinking about outlining the book and what you could add to this discourse about hosting and throwing parties, not just dinner parties, what was your main goal?

55:58Well, I feel like a lot of hosting books are actually cookbooks with a hosting lens. And so being a professional event planner, I wanted to take the things that I know and kind of make them accessible to people at home and make them just feel a little bit more empowered about putting their own spin on how they host and like all the details that surround it. I feel like it's so much more than recipes and flowers. And I hoped that that would be what people walk away with, like this little skill set or like hobby that they could nurture on the side and be a little nerdy about it if they want to. I mean, for sure.

56:33And like, there's definitely some math in here. I want to ask you about the party capacity formula, which is really smart. It takes your square footage and takes that really into account. And in New York or many urban city centers, it's really important to live in places, but we want to invite a lot of people. But sometimes we can invite all the people. Right. And so it's one of those formulas that I use for work to figure out like restaurants and other spaces that we're working in. But I think it's interesting at home because you've got this like narrative of I've got a small place or, you know, just reasons that you might not want to host and to help people start to see like, oh, no, I can actually fit a good amount of people in here.

57:15And when I'm hosting those people, if I don't like overpack the room, but allow them to have a little space and feel comfortable, like this is not so bad. I can do this. That's what I hoped. But, you know, do you have to actually measure your living room? No. But if you were curious about it, you could. Do you think people over invite? I think so because I think that we have this awful thing going on in culture right now where it's cool to stay home. And I don't know where we got that from. Forced to stay home, perhaps? You were forced to stay home and like, you know, you RSVP yes to something and then you don't show up, which is terrible etiquette.

57:51Never do that. Yeah, it's the worst. Like somebody is putting all this care into hosting you. If you're not feeling it that day, I understand. But write them and say like, hey, I appreciate you inviting me. I just I'm not feeling my best today. I can't come. And so but anyway, so I think people kind of invite more people thinking that some people might show up or just like not wanting to exclude everyone. and then they get stuck with this over-packed party that might be out of the budget they wanted to and it becomes a whole thing. It's so true. And back to like the decline, decline the invite.

58:23I mean, my philosophy, I'm being a little vulnerable. I just like never give a reason. I literally just say, I'm sorry, I just can't make it. And just like keep it short. And I think that's okay. Like when you initially RSVP, if the answer is no, the answer is no. But if you RSVP yes, and then you change it to no last minute, Then I think you should say something that still gives them care and value, but also lets them know they're not coming. So your food philosophy is really straightforward. There should be plenty and it should be really good. The caveat with that, too, is like it should be good, but you shouldn't be standing in your kitchen when guests arrive.

59:01I think that's like honestly a take because some people like just like to be in their kitchen with the apron on the entire party. Not your style. No, will never be my style. I think that the beauty and the art of hosting is being present with people and forging these new memories with them. So I'm very like, what can I put in the oven? What can I make ahead? What's the balance of like homemade and semi-homemade and store-bought restaurant delivered that can get me to be a guest at my own party? Yeah, I agree. I think that it is a tricky balance, especially when you're doing courses and you don't have help if it's just you.

59:38But being present, you can't just be in the kitchen the whole time. No, you can't. So hire help or outsource or find a balance. Like, you know, don't see hosting as something that you want to show off all the great things that you can cook, but instead that you want to have an offering for people that nourishes them. But then you can also be, you know, sitting down next to them enjoying it, too. How do you think about staffing like a home party? I mean, you do corporate events at restaurants and there's probably some good there's an argument to maybe hire a hand. I think if you can hire a hand and the budget supports that, then that might be a good way to be out and about mixing with your guests.

1:00:15And if you can't do that, then still think about delegating. Like I think the potluck is a very important art. I think asking a close friend or a guest that also enjoys cooking and hosting to help you out. I think that's where like real bonding and like the communal effort of hosting becomes really beautiful and sustainable. So, yeah, ask for help. What got you interested in this world? I wanted to ask, like, you know, working as a professional event planner. I mean, you see that in movies and depicted it. But, you know, it's not an easy job. I respect it tremendously. Yeah, it's a doozy some days.

1:00:52But, okay, if I take you all the way back. Yeah, take this back. I was, I started my career in television. I worked at NBCUniversal. I was a page. I was, you know, Kenneth from 30 Rock. Yeah, for sure. You wore a full uniform, like, hard to get into. Exactly. Harvard of internships. So I was a page and then I worked at Bravo TV on the digital team and I was going to all these networking events and glitzy television events but I wasn't I was so lonely I was in my early 20s and I wanted to make friends so I started the supper club just as like a little side hustle to to meet people in the industry and make more friends and it really spiraled out of control from there, from being like one little side hustle.

1:01:36Like I did more dinners that people wanted to come to. People started to see my work and asked me to plan their dinner parties. And that's when it all shifted. I didn't know that that was going to be my job or that the momentum would kind of catch. This was 2017. So it was before the age of the influencer dinner that you see now. But those are your clients, too. I'm sure you did. Those are my clients. Plenty of lunch or dinners. We do a lot of those in New York and beyond. So it definitely was something that just kind of spiraled out of control. And now it is my full-time job. But before it was just a hobby.

1:02:13It's still a hobby, but it's a hobby that also pays you. It pays you a job. I mean, what's food like growing up? Where'd you grow up? And like you obviously had some chops if you were just going to be like, I'm doing a dinner party, supper club. Well, for my supper club, I always hired chefs. So I always partner with chefs. I would do the same. Yeah, yeah. I can't be cooking and hosting and doing all the things. Not for 20-plus people. So I grew up in Rockland County, New York, in a small town called Nanuet. And I always played sports. My dad is a high school basketball coach. Both my parents, they're retired now, but they were teachers.

1:02:49And so we were always, like, in activities, going to sports, doing all these things. So that, I feel like, became defining to how I thought about food. I wouldn't say I eat healthy, but I always ate well. And the time when we kind of like slowed down was when we were having parties or having people over, having family over. So I think I fell in love with it then and kind of had this like sporty communal upbringing that just always stayed with me. You know when your dad's a basketball coach? There's like a lot of the players are coming over for dinner, I'm sure. Yeah, they wouldn't always come over.

1:03:23But if there was something after the game at the school, like there was just like a community around that program, which is also in Westchester. He's been the coach at White Plains High School for as long as I can remember. Oh, that's big. I know Nenue, by the way. I know your town. There's like a really good bakery there, like a cake bakery. Yes, Rockland Bakery. We would get all the desserts from there. Rockland Bakery is great. I know it well. That's a cool spot to grow up in. you end up at Bravo and you're going to these dinners and you're deciding that you want to do your own what's the first like supper club that you host what's the vibe like yeah I mean you could tell that I wasn't a professionally trained event planner so it was like at a co-working space after hours the lights were on it was buffet style nothing was super fancy but it was so warm to see those people just like become real friends and like I could barely get them out the door when our venue rental was up.

1:04:19So that's like, that's when I knew I was on to something and it just kind of got better and better in there. How did you, what was the guest list like? Were these friends of friends? Is that how that worked out? It was friends of friends. I had two roommates at the time and I asked them like, can you invite four people? I'll invite four people. And it, you know, some friends from work too. And that became the little crew. So it was, you know, they were strangers, but there was some kind of connecting piece between them that made it a safe environment to try out this concept? Because I don't know, like family style dinner party with strangers in 2017 was not always the thing that people were signing up for.

1:04:57It's a great lesson, too, for listeners. Just put yourself out there. Yes. And have like that little bit of organizational skill, but like create a dinner party. Like your house could be at a third party venue. I feel like it's just a good advice. live a healthier life. I think so. I mean, I've met the most wonderful people and I think it really starts at home. Like you don't have to rent a venue and do all the things. But if you like crafting, invite a couple people over to craft with you and that becomes your little club and that becomes your village. Let's go back to your day job because I have questions about the influencer dinners.

1:05:31Yes. We don't need to name names, obviously, but like bad behavior. I mean, influencers behaving badly at these dinners, I feel like... It's part of the game. It's part of the game. Like, what's some of the behavior you've seen, like, from some of these influencers? You know, I fortunately don't run into too much bad behavior. I think I run into poor etiquette. Again, the, like, you get invited somewhere, you RSVP, yes, and then you just never show up. And that client or sometimes that small business has spent a lot of money expecting you and then no one's at their dinner party. I have had that happen to a few clients.

1:06:05That is embarrassing. The name card is there. The place setting is there. Yes, yes. But I'm super petty. I one time was sitting next to someone that didn't show up. So I took a picture of their their food on the plate and their name card and I sent it to them on Instagram like, hey, we're all missing you. That's great. Because like somebody has to bring people back to the reality that hospitality and kindness is something that someone is extending to you. The least you can do is tell them you can't make it anymore. I'm creating Foley and like there's like a lot of money and time and people that went behind that plate that's sitting there unattended.

1:06:42And the food waste of it all. Like it really, it grinds my gears when they do. I know. I mean, you notice when you're at these dinners, I've been at those and like you see the name card that is, you see that name like, oh. So we all see it. I tell you the worst thing that happened to me. I was at one and I realized my name was on there twice. so like I was sitting at one but at the other end they all thought you skipped out yes they thought that I they were talking about you I mean they probably were it was like a longer table and my name is there and I was mortified and I realized at the end I had to like kind of go around like yo I'm here they just like double did the name they just double did it I'm sure the party planner was mortified too yeah I don't know like it was just I think when you're yeah it's good advice like if you're invited and we have media members listening to this and whatever just RSVP you know if you have to, if it's a few hours.

1:07:34Plans change, so sorry. Plans change.

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1:09:04Well, Amber, you do have a lot of really strong food takes and opinions in this book. And I love this snack plate. Your snack plate always has cheddar, port salou, fig jam, sliced apples, prosciutto, plantain chips, honey wheat, pretzel sticks. It's like this is always your plate. Why? Yes. Well, first of all, I always have those things in my pantry or my fridge because I like them. I love that stuff, by the way. Yeah. And then I found out they go together. You know, like the jam, the plantain chips, the porcelain and fig jam. I don't know why, but it works. And people who kind of are like, fig jam, they try and they're like, what was that jam again that we had?

1:09:43A good fig jam. It's got its richness. It's got a little bit. It's not like fully sweet. Exactly. Like a grape jam, grape jelly. Yeah, it's really different. It's perfect. So it just works. And I always have it. So I think that you should, one, share the things that you like. But then two, like look at the things you have in your pantry and the fridge and make something. Well, I like how you build it because I think for like a large, if it's like, if that's one of the primary things you're putting out, you got all the food groups covered. I think I always fall into this trap where I'm only putting out cheese.

1:10:10Just cheese. And like, I love cheese, right? Right. There's nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong. But like, slice apples. Like, put it on there. You got apples in the fridge. Definitely. Slice them up real nice. Put them on. You know, one thing I see missing from here is like baby carrots. I'm just, I can't hang baby carrots at the party table. Yeah, that's fair. I've actually seen people start to like put them on skewers and serve them as as past appetizers. And I would like, you know, like a meatball or something. That's cute. It's cute, but I would like a meatball. Yeah. I mean, it shouldn't be like the main, you know, maybe not the most extravagant, but, you know, it works.

1:10:48We need our veggies. Yes. You also have this interesting idea, which I love, is to start a party with a berry salad. And it's a specific berry salad, which I love. It's raspberries, strawberries, cherries, and lime zest. Why start a party with berries? Smart. Yes. I think that specific recipe is from a cookout. And so I love to serve things that are chilled with things that are grilled. I think it just keeps your body temperature regulated on a hot day. And it's easy. Like I think it goes back to that like not serving so many things that require you to be doing a lot of work. But like you can prep that in advance, chill it in the fridge and take it out as soon as people start arriving.

1:11:28So it just meets them where they're at, gives them some fresh summer fruit. I love that. It's a great idea. I think like starting a party with a fresh berry and then segwaying into the grill. And also like it doesn't have to be like chips and dip to start to. Start a little healthier. Smart. Yeah, everybody cares about that now. Yeah. Do you do a lot of outdoor cooking in the summertime? I like to. I wish I could do it more, of course. But, yeah, I like to. Is summer your busy season? It varies. So sometimes I do more personal parties in the summer and then more brand kind of experience parties.

1:12:04Those are in the fall. So, like, September to November is usually when I'm just trying to make it. How do you think about weather? I mean, like some of these parties are weather dependent and you can't predict it. How do you like mentally block that? Well, I think I always recommend having a rain date set in advance when you send the invitation. So that way people are holding both dates. I always think you should have like a backup. If it is going to say the same date, can we move inside? If it's going to be hot, like what are you doing to keep people comfortable? because when people are comfortable, they're going to talk to each other and engage and really be present in your party.

1:12:43But if they're too hot or too cold, you lose them. So I always think about that a lot more than I think about the decor. I think it's very true. Like you just don't want a hot tent. No. You know, no AC in there. Yeah. No one wants that. But sometimes it happens. The galette is a big part of your strategy as opposed to like maybe a pie. Why the galette? It's smart. Yes. I like things that are easy, and I always mess up the shaping of a pie. Yeah. And I think the galette is something that once you've mastered the technique of it all, you can then do it savory or sweet. It's just kind of in your back pocket as a little party trick, and you can keep it moving.

1:13:21Yeah. Yeah. And, like, fresh fruit is good for it, too. You can, like, pick your, you know, the farmer's market. Yes. Whatever's in season, you can get creative. So once the party's wrapping, I feel like a gift is something that great hosts give. And how do you think about gifts? Yes, I think it depends on the party. Obviously, if it's like a birthday or a wedding, you spend a little extra time on favors. And I think that's important. I think if you're just at your house, if you can think of just like a nice little memento or send off, like I like to end a party with a warm chocolate chip cookie.

1:13:55And that kind of helps start to say the party is winding down. So, yeah, I like a send-off. It just, you know, continues to speak to that spirit of generosity and giving and, you know, keeping people entertained. You also have salsa verde as a, as like a gift in a mason jar. That's a nice thought. Yes. Okay, let me tell you the truth about that. So that recipe is from my friend, Aretta Itar, who's the chef de cuisine at Gramercy Tavern. And she shared that recipe with me as just like a party trick that, again, you make a little roasted chicken and then you add this delicious, beautiful salsa verde.

1:14:35And now you've got something that's a bit of more of a wow factor. But she's a restaurant chef. So she gave me this recipe in the most outrageous proportion. Right. Gallons. Yeah, it was like ridiculous. And so I was, you know, testing it, figuring it out, hosting later that day. And I was like, I have so much salsa verde love. I just started looking around to figure out what I was going to do with it. And that became a favor. So, again, I think it's just giving some sort of offering of what you have in the spirit of hospitality. The creativity comes from there. I agree. Those are the best little mementos when you can share something from the meal that you have extras of.

1:15:13Because I had extras. Yeah, exactly. It's like mindful of waste, but also just like gives them something for later on. It's a nice gesture. So how about yourself? Do you have a party on the calendar for yourself? that you're hosting? I mean, always. I just love having people over. I love being the friend that's like, you know, you're texting me or you're calling me and I'm just like, you know what, just come over. So most casually doing like an afternoon craft party is how I kind of unwind with my friends. Those are like my favorite things to do. I usually try to have them seasonally. So a summer one is definitely loading.

1:15:48The fall one, I already decided I want to do crochet. So yeah, that's kind of like my side. That's really fun. so crochet what are some of the other crafts that you're doing it's fun so in the holiday season we did holiday bows from scratch which was fun so that everybody then had something they could put on their gifts i think for the summertime i'm kind of torn because i've been seeing those like needle point like those little pins that i think could be really interesting but also if that feels like too ambitious for everyone just like watercolor like i think that kind of ties in In the summer, the season change.

1:16:21And I always want to be at the beach, so maybe watercoloring. At the beach. It's fun. I mean, throwing parties on the beach, that's – you probably have had clients who had to do beach parties. Not yet. One or two back in the day. I try to avoid them because there's a lot of structural issues. I was going to say, like, that's got to be hard. Weather and there's, like, all that sand. Yeah, sand is everywhere. Sand. Not great for dinner parties. Yeah, no. Amber, this has been a lot of fun. Thank you so much for joining us today. Yes, thank you for having me.

1:16:54This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skirzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.

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