791: Solid Wiggles Doesn't Call It a Jell-O Shot

15:32Jack Schramm:That's what Quince is doing as well. Serious cookware like Damascus steel knives and ceramic nonstick. All performing at a professional level and priced 50-80 % less than comparable brands. There's no middlemen and it's direct from the artisans. And honestly, I'd swap out half my cabinet for Quince versions without thinking twice. And they've got fine wines too. Napa's best to Dom Perignon. If you want to make a weeknight feel a little more festive. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com slash taste for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. And now available in Canada too.

16:13Jack Schramm:That's quince.com slash taste for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash taste. Is this full time for both of you? Oh yeah.

16:24Jena Derman:Oh yeah.

16:25Jack Schramm:Which is dope.

16:26Jena Derman:We are busy and growing.

16:28Jack Schramm:Yeah, I want to hear about that. So let's get into the business side because I think that's really fascinating for our audience. so many folks in restaurants and bars and maybe want to think about a side hustle side business what's the business like i know you have like new york city specific pickup locations and you have gold belly um either of you tell me a little bit about this business how it's grown

16:51Jena Derman:yeah well i mean we've got 20 plus wholesale bar and restaurant accounts in new york wow that you know, sell us either on menu or have us as like a, you know, like a giveaway with a check drop as like a nice little something for nothing for, uh, you know, VIP guests. And then we also are doing a ton of business to caterers nationally, like weddings, events, parties. We're shipping whole trays of shots to caterers, bars, restaurants to be unmolded and sliced on site. and that's a massive business for us.

17:29Jack Schramm:That's incredible. And what's it like? I mean, what's your employee situation like, Jenna?

17:34Jena Derman:Yeah, so right now I think we're just hired someone new or we're in the process. I think we're up to, it's Jack and I and plus five. Yeah. Yeah, it's been awesome. I mean, you know, like just as individuals, like we're just so happy to be like creating really creative, fun jobs. and, you know, the hours are good. You know what I mean? Like it's no more like early mornings or late nights. It's like a real, it's a real. Yeah, bartending and pastry,

18:03Jack Schramm:you guys really, I mean, you're industry veterans in many ways and you work those long shifts and owning your own business too. Pretty awesome, Jack.

18:11Jena Derman:Yeah, it's incredible. You know, to be able to have a lifestyle that makes me feel healthy and happy is incredible. And it's nice to not be out until, you know, four o 'clock in the morning to be able to, you know, go home and make dinner for my wife and walk the dogs is spectacular.

18:30Jack Schramm:So no more shifts for you?

18:32Jena Derman:No. No, I haven't worked at a bar since 2020.

18:36Jack Schramm:That's crazy. Yeah. Because, I mean, you're like a heavy hitter in the industry.

18:41Jena Derman:Yeah, I mean, it was Booker and Dax and then The Nomad and then Opened Existing Conditions with Dave and Don. Yeah. And then that's the last bar I worked at.

18:50Jack Schramm:Right. I mean, it's cool that you've been able to keep the creativity flowing, but have a balance. I mean, tell me about these orders. Are you doing any celebs? Are these major orders, big orders?

19:03Jena Derman:Yeah, we have some celebs. Yeah. Yes. Tell us who. I mean, just today, the Drew Barrymore show reached out to have shows. I don't know if it'll be on the broadcast, but they're fans. Yeah. Yeah, it's fun. It's funny. It's like Jack and I definitely like there's certain types of celebrities that appeal to us. And so that has been really fun. Give me one. We were really excited when Venus Williams ordered for her wedding. That was huge. That's crazy. That's amazing. For the goat. Totally.

19:43Jack Schramm:Yeah. So cool. Venus has great taste. Yeah.

19:47Jena Derman:Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, like something that we like one of our tenants at Solid Wiggles is that we do customization like in our own specific way. Like we're not doing brand names. We're not, you know, like there's no logos, blah, blah, blah. So like the people that really end up wanting to order for us for their special, you know, like it's all kind of like within our own system.

20:12Jack Schramm:um that's cool so like you're not doing like the mercedes uh cake no no no logos love it

20:19Jena Derman:yeah no branding no branding yeah we'll like riff on your style your colors in our in our way um

20:27Jack Schramm:yeah because you don't need like a brand manager to like tell you like the the angle is off yeah

20:32Jena Derman:no exactly no because everything is injected by hand with specialized syringe tips like it's just not possible with our methodologies to do you know intricate tiny logos or lettering no it just doesn't you know we don't do any mold work yeah and we're not really interested in changing that yeah we're also like just making jellies for like the people not this is you know yeah yeah i mean every once in a while there's something that's a good fit um but yeah um what about this uh this

21:03Jack Schramm:wholesale business for like the trade in New York. Like I'm intrigued by who was dropping it with the check and like what restaurants and bars are you in? Well, our longest tenured,

21:16Jena Derman:most, uh, fruitful relationship has been with Tatiana in Lincoln center. That has been amazing. Karen Stanley, who runs the beverage program over there is an old friend and, you know, She brought us on pretty soon after they opened, and we've loved giving them jellies. People are really excited about them there. And that's been a, you know, it's the only reason that Ray J tried our jellies. So that was huge. And Candice Bergen.

21:44Jack Schramm:So Ray J and Candice Bergen are like, they're definitely on your radar.

21:49Jena Derman:Totally. And that's a great example of the celebrities that are interesting to us. Those are great celebrities.

21:55Jack Schramm:We are aligned in that. Yeah. Those are very good of an era celebrities.

22:01Jena Derman:But like Milady's is an awesome partner for us as well. And we do really fun custom shots for them. And we've been on the menu there for a while now. Yeah, maybe three or almost four years maybe. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. It's like in the business of it all, like we go through these like kind of cycles of when we're trying to expand like our wholesale shipping program or like our local program. So I think, yeah, I think we're coming up on like wanting to like expand into more restaurants, but it's not always like our primary focus. Like our primary focus is always like making the most delicious, consistent product.

22:40Jena Derman:And then sometimes like we're trying to do more like reach into different areas. But what's cool about the restaurants is it kind of gives us an opportunity to flex and be creative. when our, because of the nature of the product, we're really a production house. You know, we have to just be cranking out products to meet the demand. And it means that once our seasonal menu is locked in, we just changed the menu on May 1st. We're really excited about this one. I think it's probably our strongest maybe ever. It's really heavy hitters. But we're not going to change that again until November. So the custom stuff for restaurants gives us a chance to do something interesting that's maybe a flavor combination that we hadn't thought of already or like a new design that matches the restaurant's colorways or, you know, like it's just a fun way to inject a little additional creativity into the like day-to-day production of it all.

23:40Jack Schramm:Tell me about the Gold Belly business. So like you can just like dial up and order a cake. I mean, are you selling a lot of those? Hello, yeah. Yeah, like, hello, Gold Belly. I would like this awesome cake. For my bachelorette party. Like, are you selling a lot of those?

23:53Jena Derman:We're, like, kind of in between, like, working with Gold Belly forever and maybe, like, doing our own shipping.

23:59Jack Schramm:Yeah, like, no doubt. Like, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Gold Belly takes a lot of it, yeah.

24:04Jena Derman:Yeah, so, but, like, what I was mentioning before in terms of, like, what we're focusing on, like, shipping is definitely one of the things that we really want to grow. Year over year, like, we've found, like, let's see. so this is 2026 last year was 2025 the year before that was 2024 and that was the first year in our fourth year was the first year that like the december holidays were bigger than halloween halloween historically was like our busiest time of year every year um and then last year um our december sales just like knocked any previous data out so we're we've because of that we're really trying to like stabilize and kind of like fortify our offerings, how we're doing it, like all of our shipping, like all of that has been like a massive project for us.

24:58All our shipping infrastructure.

25:01Jack Schramm:Have you taken outside funding for this business? Never.

25:04Jena Derman:Not one penny.

25:05Jack Schramm:Wow. Yeah. I'm sure you had many offers, I'm sure. And there were some offers.

25:10Jena Derman:Yeah. I mean, there were definitely some, but we've. we like barely even invested ourselves yeah it was just like a little injection of capital at the beginning to like you know buy a couple fridges and yeah yeah pay rent yeah space and then we kind of just broke even for the first couple years and had other jobs and then

25:35Jack Schramm:kept getting busier that's so cool yeah that's like a great that's like a story that i'm glad you're telling because it isn't overnight for you yeah i remember when it came out like on social it was like cool but like that's not a business cool is not a business exactly thanks for saying that cool is not a business it's not business yeah and like the i think people have a misconception that

25:57Jena Derman:it's like oh you're in your you know like wonderland in your mad science lab like cooking up these quirky jellies all day it's like no we're answering emails and totally you have five employees hiring and yeah exactly and dealing with customers and client relations and yeah um

26:13Jack Schramm:but it's such a cool product and and like with the book like you're expanding your audience with that and i think the fact that this is not like the dixie cup version of jello shots totally but also like it brings a lot of joy that we've all had with the dixie cup jello shot for sure and just jello in general i don't drink alcohol but i love jello yeah and there's so it's not only for

26:33Jena Derman:alcohol right exactly there's plenty of non-alcoholic recipes in the book and you can we give a little instruction on how to sub out spirits if you need to or sub in if you know

26:45Jack Schramm:that's how you roll yeah i mean does this business expand to pastry essentially i mean right now you're really rooted in in like boozy shots or five percent so not as boozy but like there's also So, like, there's, like, you know, folks like Nung Chi, you know, doing jelly cakes who are awesome. I love those guys. And, like, that's a different. Yeah, they're beautiful. They were in my book, Korea World, and I love hanging out with those guys. Amazing. Similar to you, it's, I mean, it's really so much labor goes into these beautiful creations.

27:20Jena Derman:Yeah. I mean, I think we're both on like beverage menus and I mean, mostly we're on beverage menus, but then some dessert menus. So I think it's been really nice to kind of like straddle both categories. I think of the product technically as a pastry. I really do think of it more in the format of it and how it's built. It's like a pastry oriented product. that's flavored like a cocktail. It's like really the perfect marriage of both of our skill sets. Yeah. Also, like in creating all the recipes for the book, like when someone makes it, the dopamine hit of unmolding it and seeing your beautiful creation is like it's adding the other element, which is that it's like fine art.

28:12Jena Derman:You know what I mean? So it's a little bit of like kind of dipping your toe into like a couple different categories for sure.

28:18Jack Schramm:And you get to do a little science project too. It's science. It's like studio art. It's, and there's a lot of people who love those, those, those pastimes. For sure. You know, you could say like sourdough bakers, a lot of them are like scientists and work in data, you know, quantitative worlds. And this is like kind of their version. You know, this is a great like project oriented book and, and really like just like, you know, buying your products online. Yeah.

28:44Jena Derman:Thank you.

28:46Jack Schramm:The book has a lot of strong opinions, which I wanted to go over. You know, you're adamant about Cointreau over other orange liqueurs. I totally agree. You think Midori rehabilitation is long overdue. You think Pisco is really undervalued, really smart work here. Either of you, I'm not sure where those takes came from. That was me. That's a jack thing.

29:08Jena Derman:That'd be like, you know, like, it would be like me telling Jenna, like, what kind of flour she should be using for a pastry.

29:15Jack Schramm:Okay, I see. So tell me a little bit about Midori. Why is it just, like, not?

29:19Jena Derman:I mean, when's the last time you tasted Midori? Right. On its own. I know. It's a good product. It tastes good. It is a high quality melon liqueur that happens to be neon green. Yeah. That happens to look like Gatorade. Yeah.

29:30Jack Schramm:Happens to look like Gatorade. You could clarify though.

29:33Jena Derman:I mean, you could make a milk punch and strip most of the color out of it.

29:36Jack Schramm:It's still going to be. Yeah.

29:37Jena Derman:We celebrate the green. Yeah.

29:39Jack Schramm:Give me the green is what it's all about, of course. And then Pisco. Talk about that.

29:43Jena Derman:Yeah. I mean, I just think that brandy is underappreciated as a category. especially like specifically unaged brandies like i think it's just such a good expression of the fruit yeah and that's my favorite category like not pisco specifically but like i drink a lot of yeah yeah that's that's absolutely my shit yeah so like i think that folks should be drinking it it tastes good and it's cheap you know drink drink grape product from grapes that are grown well by farmers and then distilled well by someone who knows how to do it and it tastes good and you know you don't need oak to to have a spirit be worth drinking for sure i mean it's

30:23Jack Schramm:a great call and i think in the cocktail world too just like using great eau de v's and then like balancing it with other things is cool but you're suggesting that just buy a bottle and have it around for yeah just drink it it's good yeah yeah do you find yourself drinking less than that you're not working?

30:41Jena Derman:I find myself drinking like, uh, I probably drink about 5 % as much as I did when I was behind a bar. Like actually it's like a 95 % reduction in the amount of booze that I'm drinking. I mean, it's like, you know, maybe a couple of times a month I'll have one drink.

31:00Jack Schramm:So with that, I mean, Jack, you're like, as I mentioned, very well known in the industry. I I mean, these bars were like legend and like we wrote about them. Yeah. I mean, what is your thought about the industry that used to be such a part of? I mean, is there a future? I mean, you're not drinking yourself. I mean, what do you like? What do you think about the bartenders out there these days? Oh, the bartenders, especially in New York, are it's such an exciting new era for bars in New York. And I had a feeling of like fear in the, because existing conditions closed in 2020 in COVID.

31:36Jena Derman:A lot of bars closed in 2020. And a lot of bartenders like me who are, you know, really strong bartenders, a lot of bartenders who are better than me left the industry. And I was worried at that point that like, will it ever come back? And that was foolish. It's New York and people will always want to drink something delicious here. And there are so many cool new bars that are doing such exciting work now. I think that it's a really great time to be a drinker in New York.

32:06Jack Schramm:Yeah. I mean, is the drinker, like the Gen Z drinker, different than when you were behind the bar?

32:11Jena Derman:You know, because I haven't been behind the bar in six years, I don't know who the Gen Z drinker is. I never met the Gen Z drinker. They were 18 when I was. Yeah. What's the top age of Gen Z? Like, I don't even know.

32:25Jack Schramm:I mean, it's over 21, I believe. I mean, it's like, you know, college. College. Now is like definitely Gen Z, like freshman through senior. I would say a drinking age, you know, in most cities and or like younger millennials. But it's like much different than like 10 years ago, 15 years ago. Yeah, for sure.

32:44Jena Derman:I think that people are starting to be outside more. I think the thing that is the real hurdle for Gen Z drinkers is that everything's so goddamn expensive now. At Booker & Dax, cocktails were$14. Every drink on the menu is$14. We maybe had a couple that were$16. We were selling in 2015, there was a Yamazaki Old Fashioned on the menu for$14. I just got chills. It's just like, what?

33:20Jack Schramm:You can't find Yamazaki with a number on it. Yeah.

33:25Jena Derman:It's insane how expensive things are. Yeah. Uh, so like, you know, the difference is you could go out and have two cocktails and your bill would be, you know, after tax,$30 and 49 cents and add a$6 20 % tip. And you're at$36 for two drinks, which is very affordable, which now if your drinks are$22, you're spending 50 bucks. Yeah. And it's just like the perception there is like, oh, I just went out and two people had four drinks and that was$100 when it would have felt it would have been$65 or$72 before.

34:06Jack Schramm:Much different and with wages like really not matching. Have not gone up. Really not. Have not gone up. It becomes much more of an investment. Yeah. It also just puts the emphasis on your trade, like the bartender, former trade, to do it well.

34:21Jena Derman:Yeah, for sure. or to not do it well and just like charge. It's why programs like, uh, I've always respected over story so much because in that room, they could be selling$30 vodka sodas and probably still make a killing.

34:41Jack Schramm:Yeah.

34:41Jena Derman:It's a view,

34:42Jack Schramm:right?

34:42Jena Derman:Yeah. It's the most insane view in the scene, you know, but instead they have some really phenomenal cocktails.

34:49Jack Schramm:So I love that. You mentioned that. It's nice. are great and I'm glad you mentioned that bar as being one of the exceptional ones have you been over to Chloe and Paul's place under undercurrent we went

35:03Jena Derman:haven't been to undercurrent

35:04Jack Schramm:well undercurrent is not open yet sorry what was it echo lake echo lake yeah we went

35:08Jena Derman:for one of the early like friends and family things they're so cool yeah delicious the drinks you went to yeah we're chatting with them about potentially some solid wiggles for undercurrent

35:19Jack Schramm:That would be great for her. I love those guys. Chloe's going to be on the show soon, my old colleague. And, you know, that's a great bar.

35:25Jena Derman:Yeah. It's a great time for tropical drinks in the city. I think Garrett Richards' work over at Sunken Harbor Club, you know, Garrett worked at existing conditions. And I've respected him, you know, long before that. Like I've been drinking his drinks for like 15 years. Love his work so much. I think those drinks are phenomenal. And Paradise Lost is such a fun vibe in East Village too. So great time to be drinking.

35:51Jack Schramm:This one thing I miss about not drinking is like the spaces and the people. Both were very important when I was writing a lot about cocktails and bar culture. And it seems like it's even better than ever. The spaces in particular. Yeah, definitely. And what about pastry and your own work? Like you have this business that's like research and development. I'm so fascinated. By the way, each of you could have had your own episodes. And this is nice that I'm kind of condensing it a little bit.

36:17Jena Derman:We do like to hang out. Yeah, you like that. It's true.

36:19Jack Schramm:Yeah, yeah. So tell me about your work.

36:21Jena Derman:Before Solid Wiggles, I was helping companies like take their little or companies or individuals take like their idea and like make it on large scale. So like, yeah, my, you know, doing bench testing for flavor and then like plant testing for like making something really on a large scale.

36:41Jack Schramm:So like the book opens with a do I party as kind of this existential question. I mean, like, is there an actual answer? I'll start with you, Jack.

36:50Jena Derman:I think that in this case, it's more of a mindset. Like, am I willing to go on an adventure at home? Yeah. And that's like what a party is to me in this case. It's like, am I willing to do something, you know, maybe a little outside my comfort zone, do something fun, interesting, artistic, thoughtful? That's the kind of party we're talking about. Yeah. It doesn't say, do I rage? Right.

37:16Jack Schramm:do I end up like on the subway passed out at Coney Island?

37:20Jena Derman:Yeah. No, that is definitely not. If that's you, this might not be the book for you.

37:24Jack Schramm:Might not be the book for you. I mean, yeah. 5 % artistic endeavors.

37:28Jena Derman:Yeah. Or at least like this is for the beginning of that night. Totally. Yeah. You can, you know, we don't want to tell anybody how to live their life. Yeah, absolutely not. You guys aren't cops. Yeah. I'm not doing that. Definitely no narc energy.

37:40Jack Schramm:No narc energy in this room. Absolutely not. And I have to mention, Hugo, you, you're a photographer. I've always been a fan of his work in New York Magazine, really kind of transforming the restaurant review photography. And, of course, the still. And so many great photographers have come out of New York Mag and particularly food. How did you guys link with Hugo?

37:57Jena Derman:Yeah. So our jellies, Solid Wiggles, like they really can hold light in such a specific way. And in part of the process of kind of building our team for the cookbook, we were really, really adamant and specific in the kind of interviewing process of like who's really going to be able to understand what we're trying to express in terms of how we want them to be lit and how we want them to look. It was actually quite a challenge in our kind of like ROP requests. We knew we didn't want it to be one of those books that's like tablecloth, three cake stands with jellies on each of them, you know, knife and fork, tablescape.

38:39Jena Derman:It's macro. Yeah. Yeah. We wanted specifically also for like in 20 years for this book not to be like, like kind of clumped together with other like styles of the time. Like we're already doing something that's so out of the box. um sure and so we just wanted to make sure that we had a real like one-of-a-kind look um and uh lizzie uh our book designer actually put us in touch with hugo originally and was like you know kind of like what about this as an alternative like what about using a still life photographer instead of uh like a still life photographer wizard um more than like a food photographer yeah she sent us some of his product shots that he'd done for like loeve for a shoot and it was like oh he understands exactly what we want dude shout out to lizzie allen yeah oh she's incredible

39:29Jack Schramm:dude i'm like my colleague here at crown she designed my second cookbook food iq amazing and uh an awesome one of one totally and a fun hang absolutely and such a vibe yeah dude i'm i forgot

39:42Jena Derman:we gotta shout out lizzie understood immediately what we wanted and what we were looking for and the vibe and then helped us fight for it.

39:51Jack Schramm:Yeah.

39:52Jena Derman:To make sure that it ended up on the page.

39:54Jack Schramm:That's cool. That's what you want to advocate in your design team. Absolutely. I'm just shouting out Crown here. We have incredible designers who do that. And so happy to hear you guys had that experience with Lizzie. Yeah. It's a really cool book. I say it from the jump. It's a really, really special book. Thank you. I feel super proud of it. Really appreciate it. Yeah. On a recent episode of This is Taste, we visited Colorado, a state that has quietly, and then not so quietly, been building one of the most exciting culinary scenes in America. From Denver's Michelin-starred restaurant boom to the peach orchards and wine country of the Grand Valley, we visited to find out why Colorado is a serious food destination, and came back convinced.

40:32Jack Schramm:Check out Taste Travels Colorado, episode 786, on the This Is Taste feed. This episode is brought to you by Rula. Finding a great therapist is hard. Finding one who actually takes your insurance, that's where most online platforms fall short. Rula does things differently. They work with over 100 insurance plans, so the average copay is just$15 a session. Real therapy from licensed professionals at a price that makes sense. They match you based on your goals, preferences, and background, with appointments available as soon as tomorrow. No wait lists, no runaround, just therapy that fits your personal needs.

41:06Jack Schramm:Rula patients typically pay$15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at rula.com slash taste. That's r-u-l-a dot com slash taste. This episode is brought to you by Wayfair. I spend a lot of time in restaurants thinking about how the spaces work and sometimes don't work. One of my favorite dining rooms in New York City is Michael's in Midtown. It's so inviting, and there's all this incredible art on the wall from Frank Stella, Jesper Johns, and David Hockney. And here's the thing. When I went home to my own outdoor space, it was kind of the opposite.

41:48Jack Schramm:There was no atmosphere or vibe, just a boring table and chairs. Wayfair helped me find a new outdoor set in zero time. Wayfair offers every style for every budget, and with over 20 million verified five-star reviews, there's no second-guessing. Plus, Wayfair Verified offers hand-vetted pieces and 10-point quality inspection, so you know exactly what you're getting before it shows up at your door. Get prepped for patio season for way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com. Wayfair. Every style, every home. Wayfair. Every style, every home. On This Is Taste, I asked guests about their discerning taste.

42:30Jack Schramm:So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Yes. So each of you can take these. I feel like I'll start with you, Jack. The best fruit.

42:42Jena Derman:The best fruit is Harry's berries from the Santa Monica Farmer's Market. Nice specifics. Yourself. Wow. Well, the first thing that came to mind was a kiwi, but I don't think I've ever said that before out loud. Well, you just have. Yeah. It's great. First thing into my brain. I love it.

42:59Jack Schramm:The worst vegetable.

43:01Jena Derman:This is harder because I love vegetables. I love basically all vegetables. I'm going to say...

43:12Jena Derman:Jenny, you go first. Now you can play with each other. Yeah, I don't even know. We're such a vegetable family. Fuck, parsnip.

43:21Jack Schramm:They're fine. Parsnip has taken so many L's in the show. It's like a... Many people. It's just a shittier carrot. It's a shittier carrot. What about you?

43:31Jena Derman:Well, I'm going to like twist it a little bit, which I'll say like least favorite herb, marjoram.

43:35Jack Schramm:Oh, fair.

43:36Jena Derman:Garbage.

43:38Jack Schramm:I should ask more about herbs because I think that's a great one. Yeah, just soapy and weird. I mean, not soapy, but yeah, it's not. We should let it go. Let it go. Let it loose. Let those fields go to like let the weeds take over those marjoram fields. All right. What is your typical breakfast?

43:55Jena Derman:There are two options here. I'm either eating overnight oats with like chocolate whey protein and goji berries and 2 % milk and, you know, like hemp seeds and ground flax. Or, yeah, or I'm having like three scrambled eggs, kimchi, toast, and like a quarter of an avocado.

44:17Jack Schramm:Yeah.

44:17Jena Derman:Both great directions, but very different. But I'm a big, I have to eat breakfast every morning and it needs to be substantial. Fair. I don't need to eat breakfast every morning so either nothing or like on the weekends I'll love like an ex-Florentine

44:32Jack Schramm:oh wonderful the best dessert

44:39Jena Derman:I actually do have an answer for this one for me it's panna cotta perfect panna cotta like the one at Estella where it's got like a really interesting vinegar on top and it's like that perfect balance of tart slightly savory gentle sweetness and it's a jelly yeah I was gonna say

45:00Jack Schramm:it's in the Wiggles family absolutely it's like a cousin of Wiggles

45:03Jena Derman:it's an extended family

45:04Jack Schramm:extended family it's not gelatin but it's the Wiggles

45:06Jena Derman:cinematic universe

45:07Jack Schramm:yeah yourself

45:09Jena Derman:well for me like my favorite thing to make and eat would be like some sort of tart I mean anything sour curds baked fruit that kind of thing it's pretty perfect love that

45:21Jack Schramm:A restaurant or a bar you wish you could bring back from the dead?

45:25Jena Derman:Sombar. Momofuku Sombar. Oof. I miss it. Definitely. I mean, it was attached to Booker and Dax. I know. But also it was, you know, I happened to work in the back room, but it was my favorite restaurant. Yeah, seriously, RIP. Yeah. So good. I'm going to say the first restaurant that I had, like my first like fancy meal, which was called Cafe on Clinton in Brooklyn.

45:46Jack Schramm:Yeah.

45:47Jena Derman:They had this dish, Chicken Frangelico, fell in love with that. and they also serve burgers on English muffins.

45:54Jack Schramm:I remember that era. I lived in that neighborhood in that era. Fuck yeah. Thank you for saying that one. That's a good one.

45:59Jena Derman:I have one more.

46:01Jack Schramm:Yeah, sure.

46:02Jena Derman:Great Donuts in Alamo, California. Okay. The town that I grew up in, the donut shop. It's one of the shops that's run by a family of Cambodian immigrants. You know, like there's that story of like all of the refugees from the war that came over and they started donut shops. and they made the most delicious donuts I've ever tasted. They're perfect. And it's not just like, you know, the rose colored glasses of history. They were the most incredible donuts I've ever had because I continually tasted them throughout my life. And they retired and sold the business because their kids, you know, did other stuff.

46:37So they really did the like immigrant dream

46:41Jena Derman:where you come, you work really hard and then you sell the business and retire and your kids do something different. and I'm so happy for them. But now it's a shop called Dainty Donuts. Doesn't it the same? No, it's not the same.

46:53Jack Schramm:I have to say, I grew up, my next town over was Alamo, Michigan. Oh, wow. So like twin cities. Also, what part of California is Alamo? East Bay. Oh, East Bay, cool. I haven't been over there. When you're craving fast food, where are you going? Taco Bell.

47:08Jena Derman:I'm going to say same. Yeah.

47:11Jack Schramm:It's my people here. I feel like we have similar tastes. Yeah, Taco Bell definitely from me.

47:15Jena Derman:Like there's definitely regional fast food that are exciting, but like if it's just like big fast food chain, Taco Bell, Popeyes.

47:23Jack Schramm:Oh, nice. Yeah. All right. Favorite city outside America to visit for food?

47:29Jena Derman:Paris or, I mean, I was just in Georgia, so. Cool. Tbilisi, I guess.

47:34Jack Schramm:Tbilisi, nice.

47:35Jena Derman:Yeah.

47:35Jack Schramm:Good trip?

47:36Jena Derman:Amazing trip. Nice.

47:38Jack Schramm:Love that. Life-changing. Life-changing. Any Solid Wiggles customers in Georgia?

47:43Jena Derman:No, but right after I was in Georgia, I was in Lisbon for a couple days. And I was talking to some random person. And they were like, oh, that sounds like a cool project. There are these people that are doing that in New York. And I was like, oh, that's definitely our company.

47:58Jack Schramm:That's definitely our company. Yeah. Oh, cool. That's great. You're like, oh, yeah, that's us. Yourself? Hong Kong. Yeah. It's just so good. Yeah. It's crazy. Last one, your favorite sandwich.

48:10Jena Derman:I'm going to go super traditional. turkey, Havarti, lettuce, tomato, onion, mayo, mustard, oil, vin, pepperoncini on a, you know, on a roll, on a sourdough roll. Just like a deli sandwich ass sandwich. It's perfect. Havarti doesn't get enough credit. It's such a good sandwich cheese. Such a good sandwich. Flavor and texture.

48:34Jack Schramm:Yeah, it has like the little bit of nubs on it.

48:36Jena Derman:Yeah.

48:37Jack Schramm:Little bit of air, little holes in it. Yeah. But not too many. You're like, maybe not. I love that we're talking about it. Havarti's great, man. What about yourself?

48:47Jena Derman:Yeah, for me, my deli order is honey, turkey, Swiss, pickles, pickled jalapenos, mayo, honey mustard on a roll. No lettuce, tomato.

48:57Jack Schramm:No lettuce, tomato. A little sweet heat. I love it. Honey mustard and mayo combo. Nice. Perfect. It's a great combination. Jenna and Jack, I'm going to have you back. I love catching up. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste.

49:09Jena Derman:Thanks for having us. Thanks so much.

49:15Jack Schramm:I'm thrilled that you invited us here to Noma in Copenhagen. We're in the Noma Lounge. If you've been living under a rock, you may not know, but Noma is not here right now. They're in LA. But you're here, and I want to talk to you about the first year of Noma Coffee and you running this program. We've been talking a lot off mic about your trip to Ethiopia, which you just came back from three weeks which is amazing to be at Origin that long and we look to Noma in the industry for a lot of progressive ideas and I think having a coffee program is massive for the industry and just to tell us about what you are planning to do with Noma and coffee.

49:57Jena Derman:In many ways this past year has been a lot about learning about one's limitations actually. We've wanted to roast for a very long time I mean I mentioned I bought the sample roaster out of my salary in 2019 I think it was and actually coming to do it you you realize actually how incredibly vast the coffee supply chain is and how challenging it can be to get stuff done right like so in this first year we set a lot of limitations for ourselves, you know, so that we could be much more intentional with what we're doing and also making sure that we don't spread ourselves too thin. I think you'd be forgiven for assuming, for example, that Noma would only serve very fermented coffees because we have a fermentation app.

50:53Jack Schramm:Oh, you're like co-ferment city here, of course. You need to process coffees in weird and creative ways. No, that's not what Noma's about.

51:00Jena Derman:No, not at all. I mean, I think that it's really important to make, to distinguish between what is a core value and what's like a core goal and what's a byproduct of that goal. Right. And in our case, something that resonates much more than, say, having something very funky or having something very exclusive, let's say, because we're also a restaurant that exists behind a reservations page is it's about relationships. and I think the goal of the restaurant has always been to distill the landscape onto a plate so right now that's what we're doing we're in the beginning stages of coming to understand the supply chain and that's why we for example serve primarily washed coffees we're trying to really understand what's going on and to evaluate the quality of the raw material at origin and in order to do that it's important that we can taste it without a mask of fermentation

52:01Jack Schramm:covering it right very very very articulate agree when when grading origin and terroir it's challenging with with naturally processed coffees there's a lot going on there so to focus

52:13Jena Derman:on wash makes a ton of sense no so yeah right now it's about learning that and then the very specific needs of each origin that we're working with um and that's a process right because if If you're really prioritizing relationships, you can't really take any shortcuts. You just got to go through the process and, yeah, give it time, I think.

52:36Jack Schramm:Yeah, I mean, you're managing the green coffee buying and the roasting production.

52:42Jena Derman:We have a head roaster. So he's taken that part on now, which is fantastic. So I can really focus on the creative and sourcing as well. Yeah, it feels like coming into this year, those roles have settled a little bit more. So I'm able to kind of take things off my plate and focus a bit more.

53:04Jack Schramm:And so you launched year one as strictly direct to consumer. So going to Noma Projects and purchasing a subscription of sorts. How does that evolve? Do you maintain that as your core offering or do you end up going into wholesale retail at like a place like Dayglo or Drip, like these great multi-roaster cafes, be fun to see Noma coffees on their shelves.

53:31Jena Derman:I think, so a subscription is a very good model for us, mostly from the perspective that whenever Noma does something, it can be very like, we have the enormous privilege of a lot of people being interested in what we do, right? So the interest is always very high at the beginning of a project. And then maybe a year later, we'll kind of figure out where the genuine interest level is. Right. So a subscription was a great way to start because it gives us clear like a clear framework within which to work. And it means that, you know, we can be we can make more predictable decisions. My worst nightmare is to, for example, default on an agreement with a supplier because we're capitalizing on that initial interest.

54:19Jena Derman:but then actually we end up buying less the year after. I want these relationships to grow as the roastery does, right? So yeah, subscription first. And then in regards of how we scale from here, that's definitely a question that we're still addressing. I mean, for this year, there's quite a clear answer to that because, you know, we have a pop-up on the other side of the world, which of course requires coffee. so that's sort of how we're scaling in the first half of 26 and then we're sort of taking everything one step at a time it's it's important that we don't run ourselves over I think let's stick with

55:00Jack Schramm:the the direct consumer Noma subscription where what coffees were you offering in your year in your first year in terms of origin and what were the you said they're all washed yeah most of them Most are watched.

55:14Jena Derman:We do have some naturals. You do have a few naturals in there too.

55:16Jack Schramm:What are you focusing on? Because when you launch, you have the ability to start from zero. So in terms of origin, you could be really going anywhere.

55:25Jena Derman:Yeah, you're quite right. I mean, the first origin that we sort of focused on was Mexico. Primarily because actually it was a Mexican coffee. That was the first coffee that I ever tried at the restaurant. I joined the team just after the Tulum pop-up. which of course means that I had to you know tolerate all of the inside jokes

55:48Jack Schramm:yeah from the team yeah who were like at summer camp for six months exactly why are they speaking people speaking Spanish but it was a Mexican coffee that

55:59Jena Derman:we were serving during the pop-up that we were still serving when I got back or when I joined the team rather and I remember being really touched by it because it so subverted my expectations of what Mexican coffee could be. And in the years since, I hadn't really seen anyone approach Mexico with that degree of specificity. So it was a single variety. It was a garnica from a single producer, from a single valley, from a single indigenous community in Mexico. And yeah, in the years since that experience, I'd only seen people really serving these community lots from Mexico and fairly generic coffees, right?

56:42Jena Derman:So when we were planning to do the roaster, I was like, okay. We have to, first of all, rediscover those coffees, but also dig a little bit more underneath the surface because that being the only experience that I'd had or the only positive experience of Mexican coffee that I had indicated to me that there was a lot of untapped potential there. so we started there and that was the first origin trip second origin trip actually and then you know you have to kind of make strategic decisions when you're building an entire supply chain by scratch so Mexican indigenous producers okay that's going to be a very laborious part of your sourcing strategy because you're handling I mean this year we're handling 24 different 100 to 200 kilo lots of coffee which is those are micro lots they're very small yeah it's not a lot of coffee yeah it's it's like the roastery equivalent of picking picking microgreens with a pair of tweezers in the kitchen i love that that's really well said

57:49Jack Schramm:yeah um which hey we're in noma so why not why not go there it makes sense yeah but um but then

57:57Jena Derman:you know as we're sort of sketching out what we want to do we're also thinking okay so that's teeny tiny lots what makes sense as the other origin to explore first to me that was Colombia now when we are approaching a new origin to work we're looking at it from the perspective of like is there value to ad as well and colombia might not seem like the most obvious origin from that perspective because you know you go into any specialty coffee shop in the world right now and they probably have

58:33Jack Schramm:colombian i mean there's massive coffee operations there yeah colombia yeah but um when we went there

58:42Jena Derman:so this was the first trip that we took we went to colombia because you know you can see a lot of coffee production happening on a trip to Colombia and it's fairly straightforward. We let farmers know that our objective is to find exceptional regeneratively farmed coffee and we were met with that's impossible. So yeah it just pointed to me that okay there is definitely value to add there and you know this is the primary challenge that our partners in for example Wheeler faces they desperately want to escape their kind of conventional agricultural cycle but they don't know how or they need support or they need resources or time or or or and like I said you can't take a shortcut with these things not least a practice that can feasibly cut your or yields in half for a few years.

59:47Jena Derman:So we're at the very beginning of that process of supporting them in that conversion. Like right now, it's mostly about building trust, building the relationship, doing smaller scale collaborations. Yeah. Yeah, so then Mexico and Colombia were the first two countries that we were active in. And then more recently, Peru, Ethiopia, and Rwanda as well.

1:00:13Jack Schramm:Well, Caroline, tell me about the actual structure of the subscription. How does it work? How do you order the coffees? And what's the release schedule like?

1:00:22Jena Derman:So the subscription is actually fairly basic. Bless you. It's made easy. Right now, it's a fairly static subscription. It's a filter coffee subscription. Right now, we haven't built in the complexity of espresso, although I anticipate that will probably change in the future. but you receive two bags of 250 grams of coffee every month yeah each bag of coffee is different and each month is different as well so pretty straightforward from that perspective yeah and then each release tends to be centered around a particular theme whether that be particular producer or a particular variety from different producers and we try to kind of curate it so that it these are coffees that make sense together and as we head into 2026 we hope to do a much better job as well of telling the stories of the relationships that we're building at Origin as well and because that's also a really important part of it so yeah we want it to feel like a complete experience when you receive your package.

1:01:34Jena Derman:You're not just getting kind of two bags of coffee and that's it, but you're also receiving active communication

1:01:41Jack Schramm:about these producers. Which is nice. I know we were talking off mic before, but you're maybe moving away from the standard subscription idea where you're going to get the two bags and a card that's printed with the name of the producer and perhaps a couple of great paragraphs discussing the coffees, which is great. Of course, more information, the better, but you're thinking beyond that a little bit.

1:02:00Jena Derman:Yeah, exactly. Like for us, a really big part of our service style at the restaurant is about storytelling. Yeah. Whether that's, you know, telling the story of a winemaker that, you know, you're drinking a glass of wine from or this dry aged smoked pumpkin, whatever thing that we made with a producer in Japan. So we want to bring more of that energy to it. Yeah. Trying to tell more quality driven stories, basically.

1:02:29Jack Schramm:I love that. And I think that the fact that you go to origin with some frequency allows you to tell the stories and spending that time with farmers, which is challenging work and committing to that. I appreciate that. What about Noma at the cafe level? I mean you've got this amazing idea of direct sourcing. You've got green coming in to Copenhagen. You're roasting it and selling it via subscription. But I mean you're a restaurant group. This is like serving people is what you're built here for. So to kind of not have a cafe, a Noma cafe would feel almost like a –

1:03:14Jena Derman:Weird. Yeah, weird.

1:03:16Jack Schramm:Yeah, you said it. It seems like a disconnect from the mission of Noma, which is a restaurant. So how do you think about that evolution?

1:03:24Jena Derman:Honestly, opening the shop has been incredible for us. You said it very well. We're hosts at the end of the day, right? But we're hosts that have existed behind a bookings page for a very, very long time. So having this space where we can be open to the public is quite special and of course of course we have something to contribute to a coffee shop context when you imagine that we have this amazing pastry team and people who who make their livelihood out of making people feel good so it felt like a very logical way to add value and to also build the brand around these kind of more human experiences.

1:04:18Jena Derman:And it's something that we're sort of trying to just reinforce because this is who we are and it's what we do. And let's see, like right now we're investigating, you know, okay, the relationship between these coffees and these different food items, what makes sense? How can we bring more value to people coming and seeing us? I mean, people already are coming here and almost spending an entire afternoon in the shop because they can start off by tasting all of the different fermented things and then they can come for a coffee and then they end up having a slice of cake and then they walk in the garden.

1:04:54Jena Derman:And, you know, that's really special. So how can we add even more value to that? And, you know, we're three months in, so we're just finding our feet, but I'm super excited about it.

1:05:07Jack Schramm:So the shop is up here at Noma Projects in the greenhouse.

1:05:10Jena Derman:Yeah, exactly.

1:05:10Jack Schramm:Yeah, so you come up to the restaurant, you can go in. I mean, it's truly like the coolest space to see all the Noma Projects products and some books and of course have a coffee, have some cake and get to see the restaurant. You can walk around the grounds. But honestly, what about opening cafes in like Copenhagen, like in the city center? Anything like that in your plans?

1:05:32Jena Derman:I don't know. Like for me, I don't necessarily get a lot of excitement by the idea of running a chain of coffee shops.

1:05:40Jack Schramm:Interesting. I like that.

1:05:41Jena Derman:um like for me it's more fun to really distill the energy out there and then to figure out how we can leverage this amazing space that we have on the edge of you know the city of copenia yeah um and then it's always going to be part of our part of our way to travel and to explore other parts of the world so i can imagine that that that we as noma cafe could travel with the noma team as well um i think the only reason that we don't do so in a more concrete sense in is because of the american love of permits and our lack thereof um but you know like i think that there's definitely more fun ways of hosting people in other spaces so I think yeah we're more interested in thinking outside the box as to how we can host people in places other than our own

1:06:42Jack Schramm:yeah I love that well tell us a little bit about the the coffee in LA I know you're not there but it's a permanent cafe because yes our permits are not the best foreign entities or even Americans But I want to hear about, you're going to be there, though, present during the pop-ups and like with Noma service here during the seasons in Copenhagen. You're going to have a coffee moment during the meal, which I think is so cool about Noma. It's always had that interest in coffee at the fine dining level, which is rare if almost non-existent. You go to most fine dining and the only coffee you're going to get is an Americano and it's mostly on the staff machine.

1:07:23Jack Schramm:but uh tell us about bringing some of the screen coffee that you've purchased from your farmers

1:07:29Jena Derman:to LA and who's going to be roasting it we wanted to have a little bit of fun yeah I can definitely say that so like the selection of coffees for LA we're going to have a little shop uh in the city so very similar to the shop out there except we won't have like a coffee bar where we brew coffee um we will have some coffee beverages but we're just not allowed to produce them on site okay so

1:07:51Jack Schramm:So maybe some like ready to drink moments where you crack a top and Noma coffee's in that vessel.

1:07:58Jena Derman:Exactly. And of course, we'll roast coffee for like in retail bags. Of course, we'll roast coffee for the restaurant as well. And the selection that we chose for LA, we did so like we wanted to use it as a kind of excuse to explore some ideas that we wouldn't necessarily do for Copenhagen. and to do some like one-off collaborations with farmers and maybe just to tell them, hey, don't worry, like let's try this thing. And if it works, cool. And if not, then, you know, it's only one lot of coffee. Like don't sweat it too much. And it allowed some of the people that we work with to be quite creative in what they bring to the table and some kind of more, let's say, fermented expressions as well.

1:08:46Jena Derman:as I mentioned before we've primarily focused on washed coffees but this felt like a little bit of a tangential product a project of like this isn't part of necessarily what we're trying to build overall but we can be a bit more explorative it's a pop-up too so exactly that's the impermanence of

1:09:03Jack Schramm:the idea of a pop-up you can be you can be adventurous in your coffee program as much as your dining program I mean will there be a riff on the great American creation of the espresso martini

1:09:15Jena Derman:I don't know. You have to ask our head barista that question. I'm trying to let him do his thing. Let's see. I mean, it's actually really, it's really nice. So I head barista Tsubasa, he's out there with one of our sommelier team, Max. And they're these two kind of like young, energetic dudes. And they're just fucking taking LA by storm, man. They're just exploring everything. and every couple of days I'm just getting you know whatsapp images of you know random beverages that they're making and experiments that they're trying and they just sound like they're having the whale of like a whale of a time and that those are the kinds of conditions that yield the best the best R &D right the best most tasty beverages so I'm sure they'll figure it out I mean I've said

1:10:08Jack Schramm:on the show many times LA is the most exciting city in America for coffee and I hope when you're out there this spring you can visit nicely able you can visit the original intelligentsia you can visit loquat you can visit I mean day glow multiple locations I could just keep going so much great coffee in LA and I think the fact that you're really thinking about coffee for the pop-up It just makes sense the way Renee has been embracing Los Angeles for months before the pop-up starts.

1:10:39Jena Derman:Yeah, 100%.

1:10:39Jack Schramm:Love it. Well, I'm going to leave it there. I really would love to have you back maybe in New York. We can grab a cup of coffee and hear, let's check in in a little bit because I want to hear, I think this is a great story to follow. I'm going to link in the show notes where you can buy the coffee subscription. Is it limited in terms of the amount of subscriptions you sell? or is it kind of like ongoing? Can you buy it now or is it kind of?

1:11:03Jena Derman:Yeah, you can buy it now.

1:11:04Jack Schramm:Yeah, it may sell out at some moments.

1:11:07Jena Derman:Please do.

1:11:08Jack Schramm:As you're talking into the lab mic. No, I think I'm going to link to in the show notes where you can buy the coffees. And I just know that the roasting here in Copenhagen is exceptional. And I just love, Caroline, what you've done with the sourcing. I really appreciate that.

1:11:22Jena Derman:I really appreciate it as well.

1:11:29Jack Schramm:This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skirzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.

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