In short
Tadashi Ono’s “long road home” through French fine dining to Japanese comfort food, plus his latest cookbook Japanese Comfort Cooking and how he translates Japanese flavors into approachable, weeknight-friendly dishes.
Guest backgrounds
Tadashi Ono is a Japanese chef and cookbook author. He spent nine years as executive chef at La Caravelle in New York, earning New York Times three-star reviews twice, then left to pursue Japanese cooking. He later ran Matsuri and Maison Oh, co-authored four cookbooks with Harris Salat, and opened Turuko at the Hotel Chelsea (sushi bar/Japanese restaurant). He also worked in Los Angeles in the early 1980s, including L’Orangerie.
Key claims
He helped bring ingredients like yuzu kosho and umeboshi into mainstream fine dining. His “Japanese soul/comfort” approach is accessible, not just for special occasions. Japanese food excels at refining and polishing daily staples.
Notable examples
yuzu kosho–topped “frouk sashimi,” steak with umeboshi sauce, tofu pudding with shiso, chicken karaage (boneless thighs), tamago kake gohan (raw egg + steamed rice + soy), kale with sesame/wasabi dressing, teriyaki salmon with sancho powder, and Nagoya Kochin chicken nabe/miso udon.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOIntroduction to Tadashi Ono
0:39 to 2:24
Host Matt Rodbart introduces chef Tadashi Ono and his culinary background.
“We had like frouque sashimi with yuzu kosho, you know?”
Exploring Japanese Comfort Cooking
2:24 to 3:50
Tadashi discusses his new cookbook and the concept of Japanese comfort food.
“Tadashi, I've been a huge fan of your work as a chef for nearly 20 years here in New York.”
Dining Out in New York
3:50 to 5:25
Tadashi shares his favorite dining spots in New York when not working.
“We got some book stuff to talk about, but let's get into the chef world.”
Culinary Journey: From LA to New York
5:25 to 7:39
Tadashi recounts his experiences cooking in LA and transitioning to NYC.
“So, you know, when I left this Japanese restaurant, I started to work with this California kind of, you know, Japanese-French fusion type of restaurant called Chaya.”
Cooking at Le Caravelle
7:39 to 10:10
Tadashi reflects on his time at Le Caravelle and its impact on his career.
“You end up moving to New York and working at Le Caravelle.”
Innovation in Japanese Cuisine
10:10 to 11:49
Tadashi discusses introducing Japanese flavors into French cuisine at Le Caravelle.
“Then it could adapt to some other cuisine other than Japanese.”
Innovation in Japanese Cuisine
13:59 to 14:56
Tadashi discusses introducing Japanese flavors into French cuisine at Le Caravelle.
“The market is completely oversaturated with overpriced, over-engineered pairs that slide off your face the moment you start sweating.”
The Evolution of Matsuri
14:56 to 16:58
Discussion on the Matsuri restaurant's concept and its innovative menu.
“Which, you know, from my memory and experience, it's a very Tadashi Ono kind of place you see it at Teruko now.”
Collaborative Menu Creation at Teruko
16:58 to 19:38
Exploring the collaborative process behind the menu at Teruko and its unique dishes.
“But they're being framed around a way that like everyone at any time could be interested in.”
Cheruco and Celebrity Guests
19:38 to 21:30
Insight into running a restaurant in the iconic Chelsea Hotel and its clientele.
“You walk up to the Chelsea and you go down some stairs.”
Show all 21 chapters
The Fresh Ingredients at Teruko
21:30 to 23:28
Discussion about the ingredients sourced for the restaurant's menu, especially sushi.
“and like I want to go back to like the menu because it is true you could you have like a market price sushi counter where you can have sushi service.”
The Joy of Cookbooks
23:28 to 24:30
Tadashi Ono reflects on his passion for writing cookbooks and introducing Japanese cuisine.
“Well, first, you know, it's fun doing it.”
Karaage and Comfort Food
24:30 to 26:17
Exploration of Karaage and the concept of comfort food in Japanese cooking.
“So, like, what does comfort cooking mean to you?”
Simple Pleasures: Tamago Kake Gohan
26:17 to 28:00
Discussion on the simplicity and joy of Tamago Kake Gohan as a comfort dish.
“So it was like, you know, tears comes out of my eye when I tasted it.”
Exploring Unique Japanese Dishes
28:00 to 30:40
Learn about the innovative uses of raw egg and sesame dressing in Japanese cuisine.
“but, like, it cooks a little bit with the steamed rice, and you're going to be okay.”
The Versatility of Sancho Chili Powder
30:40 to 34:10
Discover how sancho chili powder enhances dishes like teriyaki salmon and its unique properties.
“So the teriyaki salmon recipe is really, really simple.”
Nagoya's Culinary Heritage
34:10 to 36:20
Uncover the significance of Nagoya Kochin chicken and its preparation methods in Japanese cuisine.
“Just that miso has a little, like, this type of, you know, smell to it.”
The Evolution of Japanese Cuisine in NYC
36:20 to 39:20
Examine the growth of Japanese food culture in New York and the impact of Tadashi's book.
“Looking back at old books is always a curious exercise.”
Tadashi's Experience in Japan
39:20 to 42:00
Hear about Tadashi's experiences working in Japan and how it influenced his culinary perspective.
“They might not create something totally new, but they're just polishing it, refining it.”
Tadashi's Experience in Japan
43:00 to 43:43
Hear about Tadashi's experiences working in Japan and how it influenced his culinary perspective.
“Finding one who actually takes your insurance, that's where most online platforms fall short.”
Rapid-Fire Taste Check with Tadashi Ono
44:10 to 47:53
Tadashi Ono answers rapid-fire questions about his favorite foods and culinary experiences.
“So to close this interview, here's a little rapid-fire Fast and Furious taste check.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Tadashi Ono:Attention, this is Tate's listeners living in New York City. I am so excited to host a live conversation with my friend, the best-selling cookbook author, Claire Saffitz, at Rizzoli Bookstore on July 7th. Claire and I will be talking all about summer baking and so much more live in Manhattan. Tickets are$5 and available now. Claire will be hanging out after the conversation to sign copies of her books. and you must reserve your seat because this will sell out. It's on July 7th. Visit RizzoliBookstore.com or check out the link in the show notes.
0:39Harris Salat:I'm not giving up. I am selling the building.
0:43Tadashi Ono:The final season of FX is the bear. The restaurant is flooded. Everything's either going to be okay. Or not.
0:55Harris Salat:We are outgunned and we are outmanned. We have each other.
1:01Tadashi Ono:FX's The Bear, the final season. All episodes now streaming on Disney+.
1:14Harris Salat:We had like frouque sashimi with yuzu kosho, you know? Yeah. Yuzu kosho oil. It looks like Italian, but flavor is like Japanese, you know, something like that. So it gives more umami and flavor.
1:32Tadashi Ono:This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbart.
1:42Tadashi Ono:Tadashi Yono spent nine years as the executive chef at La Caravelle, one of America's great French restaurants, twice earning a three-star New York Times review before walking away to cook the Japanese food he actually wanted to cook. Since then, he's run Matsuri and Maison Oh, written four cookbooks with Hera salad on Japanese hotpots, grilling, and comfort food, and opened Turuko, a sushi bar and Japanese restaurant in the subterranean belly of the Hotel Chelsea. On this episode, we talk about Tadashi's long career and his latest cookbook, Japanese Comfort Cooking. I hope you enjoy this episode.
2:23Tadashi Ono:Tadashi Ono, welcome to This Is Taste. It's so great to have you here. Oh, thank you for having me. It's so good to be here. Tadashi, I've been a huge fan of your work as a chef for nearly 20 years here in New York. Wow. I'm also such a fan of your cookbooks, the books you've created with Haris Salat. Yes. we'll get into the brand new book Japanese Comfort Cooking which is out this summer Japanese soul food is like for me it was such an inspiration for when I started writing my own books I just think you're terrific
2:56Harris Salat:oh thank you we're very happy about this new coming book and the Japanese soul cooking is doing really well it's been already 12-13 years since it's published it sells well and we have a very good feedback for it.
3:14Tadashi Ono:It should sell well because it really defined a style of Japanese cooking that hadn't really been brought to the mainstream. At the time, 13 years ago, a lot of Japanese cookbooks were rooted in tradition of sushi or fine dining. Right. And you were able to define this new category.
3:31Harris Salat:Right, yeah. We're just trying to introduce more daily basis Japanese food in Japan and how good it could be. And we're pretty sure that people will enjoy it in this country too.
3:50Tadashi Ono:We got some book stuff to talk about, but let's get into the chef world. I mean, you're the executive chef at Teruco in the Chelsea Hotel. You have a long history in New York. Before I get to all that, let me ask you, where do you like to dine out in New York when you're not working?
4:06Harris Salat:Oh, I love going to this little place called Maison Premier in Brooklyn, Williamsburg. But also, you know, I wanted to go to a great sushi joint like Sushi Nozu, you know, into Sushi Show. You know, these places, you know, is my favorite place to go. But I also like to go very casual pizza joint and all that stuff. so yeah
4:33Tadashi Ono:what's it like when you dine at sushi show as a as a chef yourself I thought
4:39Harris Salat:it was really really on top of everything and so good yeah yeah but it just could be a little very pricey right so you cannot you cannot go all the time I know that's the thing
4:53Tadashi Ono:I haven't been well you have such a cool cooking resume you worked in Los Angeles in the early 80s including at lingerie, kind of an iconic restaurant, French restaurant in LA. What was your time like cooking there?
5:12Harris Salat:Oh, I enjoyed it a lot and I learned a lot too. First I was working for this Japanese restaurant and they provide me visa and green card and everything. But California was a booming of the California cuisine around that time. So, you know, when I left this Japanese restaurant, I started to work with this California kind of, you know, Japanese-French fusion type of restaurant called Chaya. And I, you know, I enjoy working there, but they had to close somehow. Then the chef Chaya and Olaanji chef was a friend, so they introduced me. And I also wanted to learn more, you know, Western type of cooking, So French restaurant might be the good choice to do it.
6:02Harris Salat:So that's how I get in. I learned a lot. It was very fun working in L 'Orangerie. There's two chefs. One came from Trois Gros. One came from Girarde. Wow. Yeah, so they were kind of competing every day, showing something new, something interesting. And yeah, so it was so much fun working there.
6:26Tadashi Ono:Those Twog Road, Girardet rivalries back in the kitchens in the 80s.
6:31Harris Salat:Yeah, it was amazing. Yeah, it was amazing.
6:34Tadashi Ono:And what's it like, you know, cooking in L.A. at that time when this restaurant was very buzzy? Right. It's like a place, I mean, along with Michael's and, you know, other places, Wolfgang Puck.
6:46Harris Salat:Yeah, the oldest good place that I've been. I didn't, you know, that time I didn't speak very good English. I didn't know what to do with it. So that's why I went to Chaya, which is owned by Japanese people. Yeah. And then, you know, I started a little bit of a Western type of cooking. Yeah. So then French place. So that, I think this California type of cuisine or, you know, American cuisine, the base is very much like French stuff, right? Or Italian. Yeah. So I thought I should learn more about that part of the cuisine rather than just going into, you know, like more innovative American cooking.
7:35Harris Salat:Yeah.
7:35Tadashi Ono:So you really got your French chops there. Right. You end up moving to New York and working at Le Caravelle. As executive chef, you were there for nine years. You earned three stars, New York Times twice. And, you know, Caravelle is part of that Le Caravelle restaurant pedigree that we think about, we talk about a little bit, but we kind of have forgotten, at least in terms of New York restaurant scene. But these were very important places. You know, what was it like to cook at Le Caravelle kind of at the, I call it like the sunset of its prominence in New York?
8:10Harris Salat:True. It's very traditional, authentic, you know, French cooking. they were serving for many, many years in New York. Yeah, all the newcomers coming, Chef John George was opening his own and David Boulay, chef, was very much of the iconic chef around the time. So yeah, the booming of this newcomer, new idea, new cooking. So this whole institution started to be a little, you know, like you say, I don't know if sunset or something, but what we did was we kept all this traditional cooking, but also when I became chef, I put little, you know, accent or little, you know, like a stuff that is more influenced by Japanese, you know, ingredients and, you know, method too so that we had like kind of two you know like a line of the menu so i think i think people start to get interested about it and you know we get uh uh very good feedback and we start to get busy again so it was a really good experience it makes a lot of sense and and
9:30Tadashi Ono:just talking it through we're talking about the late 80s here you know you got chefs like like like Jean-Georges with Vong. Right. And later on, other iterations kind of bringing in Asia into this French cooking. You've got Le Bernardin later where it's a seafood restaurant, but Eric Repair is inspired by East Asia tremendously. Sure. But you were also doing it. And was this an era that New York diners were starting to see Japanese flavors as not only reserved for Japanese restaurants?
10:02Harris Salat:Right. Yeah, it was interesting for me to introduce all these ingredients or the flavoring. Then it could adapt to some other cuisine other than Japanese. So I guess it came out pretty good.
10:23Tadashi Ono:Yeah, give me an example of a dish that you put on the Le Caravelle menu that had Japan at its center.
10:30Harris Salat:We had like frouk sashimi with yuzu kosho, you know, like yuzu kosho oil pour around the sashimi. It looks like Italian, but flavor like Japanese, you know, something like that. So that was one good thing. And we did a steak with a umeboshi sauce type of thing, you know. So it just, yeah, something like that. Using soy sauce here and there, it gives more umami and flavor.
11:07Tadashi Ono:It's very understated, this important moment, what you're doing here in the late 80s, introducing fine dining restaurant goers to Yuzukosho and Umaboshi. Not many people were doing that, Tadashi.
11:21Harris Salat:No thought of it. Well, you know, I became a chef, right? And, you know, yes, there's a way to do, of course, you can do like very, you know, like technically perfection and all that stuff. That's very important, too. But also like something more playful could be something interesting for, you know, people like you. So I was just trying doing it.
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14:30Tadashi Ono:And they come in colors and styles that are legitimately fun. These are not your boring athletic eyewear. these are not jokelies. I've been wearing mine on morning runs, at the beach, while shopping at the farmer's market. They go with every occasion. Claim$10 off your first pair at goodr.com slash taste. That's G-O-O-D-R dot com slash taste. Well, I think your time at La Caravelle really sets up Matsuri. Right. Which, you know, from my memory and experience, it's a very Tadashi Ono kind of place you see it at Teruko now. It's, first off, it's like a fun place. It's like in, you know, it has a little bit more of a, it leans a little more club and like party vibe than like the traditional Japanese.
15:19Tadashi Ono:It's also on the menu, it's like you've got polished and classic flavors and even technique, but there's some kind of twist and there's some fusion-y elements in there that I just love. It's really fun Japanese cooking. Now, again, this is the early 2000s. You're doing this at Mansuri. Another pioneering moment for sure.
15:39Harris Salat:Yes, the Matsuri is a gigantic restaurant, right? And, you know, we have the menu that I created was executable for such a volume. But also, you know, I want to keep some authentic Japanese, you know, structure to it. Plus, like you say, some kind of accent with more new stuff. stuff and that was you know it was fun doing it and the matsuri means festival yeah so it has to be fun having you know like a party you know enjoyable and shareable that was the things i
16:18Tadashi Ono:was you know thinking about doing the menu very innovative was it you think so i think so i mean it predated Budokan, right?
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16:28Harris Salat:Yeah.
16:29Tadashi Ono:It predated Budokan. Right. And then, you know, Mr. Chow is, of course, happening before.
16:35Harris Salat:Right, of course, for a long time.
16:37Tadashi Ono:A long time. So there's definitely a history of, like, larger and then, like, more, like, splashier. I think in modern day, you call them splashier. But there's something about the flavors here that you're cooking these dishes that have real populist appeal. They're just delicious and they're Japanese. Right. But they're being framed around a way that like everyone at any time could be interested in. Was this a strategy or formula that you're using?
17:06Harris Salat:Well, I think also to order to cater to a lot of people, a lot of customers in the restaurant, it has to be fun and also it has to be approachable. You cannot really do something crazy. But I always think that part of the idea too, it's just my cookbook and all that stuff, it has to be accessible in a way. Not only like price and all that, but more like ideally.
17:43Tadashi Ono:Yeah, there has to be something that connects. So if it's a krage. Exactly. Like harage and fried chicken are the connection.
17:51Harris Salat:Exactly, yeah. More fundamental.
17:53Tadashi Ono:Yeah. More authentic in a way. I mean, I think of that in Teruko, like the fresh tofu pudding-like, but it has this herb chunkier sauce. I talked about it in Three Things. Right. Really, it's like one of my favorite bites this year. I love that dish. Oh, you do?
18:12Harris Salat:I loved it. That's, you know, when we create the menu, it was a collaboration with owners, you know, the operator, which is the Sunday hospitality. Yep. You know, a lot of good, you know, like very good people, right? So, especially this tofu dish was, gave idea from the Sean McPherson. He's an owner, one of the Chelsea hotels. Sure, yeah. He had these tofu dishes in L.A. in Chinese restaurant. He really loved it. So he just, you know, sent it to me, to us to see it. And it was really good. But it's just a little off with cilantro and all the other, you know. Yeah, there's like cilantro.
19:00Tadashi Ono:Is there some kind of other green? Is there like parsley?
19:04Harris Salat:Yeah, but we put instead of cilantro, we put shiso. Shiso, that's it. And scallion, ginger, and all that stuff, sancho a little bit. So you make it into more, you know, Japanese instead of just being Chinese food, right? So all the menus very collaborate with other people.
19:24Tadashi Ono:Yeah, Sean McPherson, come on the show. We can talk about, you know, giving Tadashi notes. I love that story that it came from an operator and not...
19:31Harris Salat:Yeah, exactly. It's always like that, you know? Yeah. Not just me.
19:36Tadashi Ono:It's just the teamwork, right? Yeah. So let's talk about Cheruco. It's in this cool space, subterranean. You walk up to the Chelsea and you go down some stairs. I remember going there for parties in the early 2000s. Now it's been transformed into this restaurant. I mean, what's it like running a restaurant at the Chelsea Hotel?
19:56Harris Salat:Oh, it's a very iconic, you know, hotel. You know, the restaurant that we have in the hotel. You know, we have all kinds of celebrity, you know, like very interesting people, artists, you know, like the writer, actor. it's just but Teruko were trying to do not just cater to this you know interesting people right more people who wants to spend money or people who wants to dine really seriously in a way you know for the good food so you know every day it's fun you know to cooking for kinds of diverse people. Who's come in celebrity-wise? Oh, it's okay to say. Totally. Camelon Diaz was there almost every week.
20:53Tadashi Ono:Who do you got? Give us some, I think it's cool. Like, it builds that. Keanu Reeves had just a party there.
20:59Harris Salat:Yeah. Like, his wife's birthday. And, you know, I'm sure there's a lot of different, you know, interesting or famous people, but I just don't know much. so yeah yeah
21:13Tadashi Ono:you're a Matrix fan you got
21:15Harris Salat:yeah I'm in the kitchen I don't you know of course I don't go out and take a look
21:19Tadashi Ono:all the time so yeah all good you know you don't need to name names it's I mean Chelsea has a lot of cool people hanging out there and residents and people staying at the hotel yes and like I want to go back to like the menu because it is true you could you have like a market price sushi counter where you can have sushi service.
21:44Harris Salat:Sushi is a big, you know, big element of the Teruko too. Right. And all these ingredients is flowing from Japan daily basis. We use, you know, very fresh, you know, seasonal or interesting, you know, the fishes from Japan. So, and our sushi chef, his name's Hide. It's an amazing sushi chef too. So, you know, it's a great stuff we have.
22:14Tadashi Ono:And I had like this great tonkatsu. Right. I had some great beef there. I mean, it's a really cool menu. The pastries are excellent. Yeah. I really... You have a good pastry chef. You have a talented pastry chef.
22:27Harris Salat:She is. Call her out. She does all the pastry or the dessert for the whole hotel. Who is that? Her name is Patty. Yeah. He's from... She's from Mexico, but she's really good, though. Yeah. We also, you know, collaborate with her, making it into more Japanese, you know, stuff. Right now, we have a cherry blossom jelly type of thing. It's just beautiful. She did exactly what I said. You know, it's amazing. That's great.
23:02Tadashi Ono:Yeah. Good chef. Yeah. Yeah, so you've got this restaurant, but you also are releasing this book, and I want to talk a little bit about it. Again, you're prolific. You're the authors of Japanese Grill, Japanese Hot Pot. We talked about Japanese Soul Cooking, and now Japanese Comfort Cooking. That's a lot of work, Tadashi. You're a prolific cookbook author. What draws you to working on cookbooks?
23:30Harris Salat:Well, first, you know, it's fun doing it. And also, you know, me and Harris wanted to just introduce the Japanese cooking. It's more than just sushi and, you know, teriyaki, right? There's a lot of tips to it. And we really believe that this daily basis comfort food could be executable and enjoyable for the American audience. You know, so that's why it's opinionated, right? It's like we strongly believe this, you know, that people, you know, enjoy daily basis, right? Weeknight, weekday, weekend, you know. Yeah. all the way. So that's the bottom line.
24:21Tadashi Ono:Is that the opinionated part, that cooking Japanese cuisine is not for a special occasion?
24:26Harris Salat:No, not at all. Yeah. Yeah.
24:29Tadashi Ono:Yeah, I mean. Exactly. So, like, what does comfort cooking mean to you?
24:36Harris Salat:Oh, it just makes me feel warm, right? It makes me comfortable, but also enjoyable.
24:45Tadashi Ono:Yeah. And, you know, it's just fun. When you think about a dish or two from the book, what pops in your mind first? What are some dishes that you love? Oh, karaage is good.
24:57Harris Salat:Yeah. Chicken karaage is just a little step up, ordinary karaage. So it just, you know, it happens to be really juicy, flavorful, tender.
25:12Tadashi Ono:Yeah, it's a cool recipe. I checked it out. It's definitely like multi-step. Yes, it is.
25:17Harris Salat:It is a little more complicated, but it's worth it. It's worth doing it.
25:22Tadashi Ono:Completely. I think that that's the point with this is some of it is stovetop.
25:25Harris Salat:Right.
25:26Tadashi Ono:But while others' dishes require a little bit more time, but I love that about this book. Right. You can pick your own way, and I think having a brine step, a seasoning step, and then the frying off of the karaage. Right. It's so nice. What's the idea of buying chicken for karaage? Because I think with karaage, it's all about the knife cuts. Right. You want it to be the right size to get the right ratio?
25:49Harris Salat:Yeah, it's slightly bigger, so you have more bite to it. Yeah. And it keeps the juice inside better, so it's more meaty. But, you know, when you bite it, it's just the juice comes out in your mouth, right? Yeah. That's a good part of it. And the first time I try, you know, blinding it, just a little piece of chicken, that the flavor could dilute it into the water and that's flavorful. But it doesn't. It just makes it better. So it was like, you know, tears comes out of my eye when I tasted it. Oh, wow, it's so fucking good. Kind of stuff, yeah.
26:30Tadashi Ono:So, yeah, I enjoyed it. I cannot wait to cook that recipe. Yeah. And we're talking about like boneless chicken thighs? Yes, boneless chicken thighs. That's the always the cut. Yeah, that's the winner. That's the winner. You can't go wipe me with the karaage. Like, don't even think about it. Yeah. I love this dish. Tamago kake gohan TKG. Wow, I know. Tell me about that. It looks so good.
26:53Harris Salat:This is very, like, fast cooking. You know, when you're hungry and you want to eat something, if you have a steamed rice already cooked, you just put the raw egg and put a little soy sauce and mix it up and eat it. it's like so simple but it could be so good you know just amazingly egg, soy sauce, rice and rice should be warm so when you mix it egg gets slightly cooked and also this steam rice does magic of this steam coming into your back of the nose so it's like it makes taste better, right? Everything with steamed rice makes things, you know, Totally agree. Yeah, so it does the magic.
27:44Tadashi Ono:Steamed rice, raw egg, and a quality soy sauce. Yes. I think it's a great way to cook with, like, if you're at the farmer's market and you have really nice eggs and you're thinking about what can I do with these. Yes. And, you know, the raw egg, you know, we might be a little scared of raw, but, like, it cooks a little bit with the steamed rice, and you're going to be okay.
28:04Harris Salat:You know, time change, you know, things change. Raw egg, eating just like that, it could be like 20 years ago, people go, woo. And then right now at Teruko, we serve this chicken meatball with a raw egg and a little yakitori sauce.
28:22Tadashi Ono:Oh, yeah.
28:23Harris Salat:People loving it, loving it. And also just mix the sauce and raw egg like this and just make it into sauce.
28:29Tadashi Ono:I mean, we all know that when you have certain types of yakitori, you're having that raw egg next to it. the meatball right i mean that's the only yeah that's yeah that's a winner too oh such a winner all right tell me about this kale salad because i had a really good kale salad at churuko oh you did and so is this the recipe for the restaurant dish yes almost yes it's more i mean the kale simplified in the book but uh it's it's pretty similar what are you doing with this dressing because like like when you have a good salad dressing in new york yes i mean i think like dojo had that ginger dressing that we still want all the time long closed right tarugo's got this it's
29:15Harris Salat:just so amazing i love that it's basically sesame paste right and rice vinegar soy sauce uh but what But we put a little wasabi in there, it might kick a little bit. And the wasabi's nose makes it more flavorful maybe.
29:37Tadashi Ono:A little bit of wasabi. Isn't that freshly grated?
29:39Harris Salat:Yeah, freshly grated. And also the sesame has such strong flavor and texture to it. Sesame paste. Yeah. Yeah, and a lot of umami in the dressing too.
29:56Tadashi Ono:And it's great to see it with kale because I feel like that pairing is less common.
30:00Harris Salat:Yeah, kale itself is very bitter, right? Very, you know, strong. But I think the strongness of the kale and the strongness of this sesame dressing blends in perfectly. So, yeah, that's what I thought. It's really cool to see that pairing. It's less common. And also the salad has avocado. Yes. So it's kind of fatty in a way, more, you know, more volume in your bite, right? Yeah.
30:31Tadashi Ono:Yeah. I mean, I'm going to go order that. I'm going to go back to Chiruko and order the salad. Oh, please. Anytime. I'm just like, I really like the salad. We're doing like five minutes on a salad. Right. All right. So the teriyaki salmon recipe is really, really simple. In the book. Yeah. Yeah. From the book. and it uses these dried sancho chili powder. Right. I love that combo. I feel like sancho powder isn't used that much in cooking.
31:00Harris Salat:At least... Oh, I love sancho. I'm really into it now. Yeah. I put everything on sancho. Apparently, this sancho makes ingredients taste better. They do some kind of a chemical reaction in your mouth. Yeah, totally. I don't know what it is, but, you know, I like to put sancho on everything, but especially salmon, little fatty, could be a little fishy, right? So putting sancho could, you know, like cut this fishy part of the salmon. So, yeah, that's the thing. And also teriyaki, salmon teriyaki is such a simple. Simple. you know every day everywhere type of thing but you know putting sancho makes it into totally different stuff so you know more interesting stuff so yeah i'm gonna go buy
31:55Tadashi Ono:some sancho like h mart oh yeah i wanna it's very you know i think we went a little hard with togarashi i thought togarashi was being put on so many things right and it's fine i mean togarashi is good but like sancho yeah it makes things better i love it yeah so tadashi tell me about Nagoya, this city that has a special and deep connection to chicken.
32:19Harris Salat:The most famous chicken in Japan grew in the Nagoya area called Nagoya Kochin. That's the name of this chicken. It's one of a few jidori in Japan. It's not much. Nagoya Kochin was one of the jidori satisfied by government. So it's a really good chicken. It's a little tougher meat, but it has a lot of flavor. Yeah. The legs are really reddish too, you know. Oh, wow. Cool. Yeah, yeah. It's almost like a duck type of. Yeah. But it's very springy, you know, great texture. And every time you have a bite, it has, you know, flavor. So how is it being prepared in Nagoya, the chicken? Nagoya, they make nabe, you know, like a chicken sukiyaki type of thing.
33:10Harris Salat:Yeah. Which we had it a lot. So we enjoyed it. And we also had a, you know, udon type of kishimen. It's like flattened noodle with Nagoya miso, which is like 100 % soybean miso. Kohacho miso, right? Oh. It's like miso udon with Nagoya chicken in there. It was so good. So we're trying to duplicate in the book too.
33:38Tadashi Ono:So 100 % soybean miso feels like Tenjan. Korean tenjean.
33:44Harris Salat:Correct, but this one's aged. Yeah. Like three years minimum age. Yeah. The hachou miso, it's very dark. Yeah. Yeah, so... There's no wheat in it, though.
33:55Tadashi Ono:It's only soybeans.
33:57Harris Salat:It's only soybean and salt. That's it, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
34:00Tadashi Ono:And water. I want to try this because I, I mean...
34:03Harris Salat:Hachou miso is really interesting miso. It's very, very earthy. Yeah. But it's same time, not so fungus-y. You know what I mean? Just that miso has a little, like, this type of, you know, smell to it. Yeah, because it's been shot with the bacteria. If you put a sugar and eat it, it tastes like chocolate almost. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
34:31Tadashi Ono:It's amazing stuff, yeah. So let's go back to Japanese soul cooking, which came out in 2013. I mean, this was like before ramen really had taken over New York and Japanese food was part of like a cultural phenomenon in many ways. And of course, we see that today with many cuisines of Asia, Korea, Thai. I mean, so many listeners of the show and fans of food are just eating at these restaurants many times a week. But back then it was different. You know, it was, you know, Japanese food was in a very specific place. it felt. Did you feel that you were tapping into a cultural phenomenon with this book?
35:08Tadashi Ono:Japanese soul cooking.
35:11Harris Salat:Yeah, that was a goal, I think. Like ramen, for instance, it just started to be very popular around the time. And then, you know, we should just get into more variety of ramen, which we have like five different recipes of ramen in the book. But also, I think it's just happening in New York naturally, right? People find something good and, you know, they become really popular. And then because of that, they might bought our book too. Who knows, right? The ramen was the first thing seen in the book, if I believe correctly. I remember correctly. Yeah, it was. It kicked it off for sure. I think we put some kind of weight onto the book, the ramen part of it.
36:01Tadashi Ono:Well, I mean, it's obvious that Many chefs picked up your book. I've seen it in restaurants. I mean, it's around. And the industry was thinking. I see it.
36:10Harris Salat:I really do see that book. Well, time changes. Things change. I know. 13 years ago, it was very fresh. But nowadays, it's like I make better ramen, some chefs say. Of course. Of course, right?
36:22Tadashi Ono:Looking back at old books is always a curious exercise. I must agree. Well, speaking of ramen, you and Harris, you opened up a ramen shop. It was called Ganso Yaki and Ramen. I really was a fan. Oh, you were.
36:39Harris Salat:You live around there, too.
36:41Tadashi Ono:I was in downtown Brooklyn, and I definitely went back. And I remember you had some cool folks working there. What was that like collaborating with Harris, your co-author, on a restaurant?
36:52Harris Salat:Oh, he knows what audience want, right? And he knows a lot of things about Japanese cooking. Japanese food. He was married to a Japanese wife, you know, lady too, back then. So, he find this is the way that people, the audience who enjoy. But it's basically that's kind of came from him. He lived in Japan for a little bit. he tried all this food he enjoyed the food his experience and the palate remember all the good things right that was a collaboration that we made he tell me what he liked and he think it's you know it's gonna be hit and all the stuff so and I came up with a recipe you know the stuff so it's just Just a great collaboration.
38:01Tadashi Ono:Yeah, it was open for a long time.
38:02Harris Salat:Yeah, it made me realize, you know, I'm Japanese. I know a little Japanese food, right? Kind of, you know, daily basis, maybe a little upscale. But, you know, what I enjoy and what people enjoy here could be a little different too, right? So just this matching is very important to the restaurants. so yeah
38:28Tadashi Ono:what were you after Gonzo Yaki closed what were you up to because I missed you you weren't working in New York because I always loved
38:36Harris Salat:yeah I was working in Japan for almost five years you were living in Japan yeah yeah I lived there I you know occasionally coming I had to come back every every six months because of the
38:50Tadashi Ono:my visa
38:51Harris Salat:will expire if I don't do it well that was a good moment so you know I you know, food world in Japan, a progress daily basis, you know, like little by little, but it changes, right? So, you know, 20, 30 years ago, I thought I enjoyed this kind of food, but this just, they make it even better, you know, every day. That's what Japanese is good about, right? They might not create something totally new, but they're just polishing it, refining it. And those things that I could see around the time while I was working in Japan, so it made me realize how interesting Japanese food could be again.
39:43Tadashi Ono:What kind of restaurants were you working in?
39:45Harris Salat:It was, I was doing some consulting work, opening up the new building who called. I was putting all these restaurants to put like some American steakhouse, Japanese izakaya, you know, like Indian curry shop kind of stuff. So then I also opened this food, like a private club, bar and a restaurant, which is no longer there anymore because pandemic just killed this project. They opened like six months before pandemic. Oh, yeah. It's challenging.
40:23Tadashi Ono:Yeah. What city was this in?
40:26Harris Salat:What is it? Tokyo.
40:27Tadashi Ono:Tokyo. Yeah.
40:28Harris Salat:Aoyama area.
40:30Tadashi Ono:Yeah. So what was it like living back in Japan after spending so much time in the States?
40:36Harris Salat:Great. Always. It's my roots and nature. But also, I'm very much Americanized, so I say whatever I think. Japanese people don't say much. It's like, oh, come on, say it. It's okay. I knew that, but it's very hard to be patient sometimes.
41:04Tadashi Ono:Did you lose some of your Japanese language skills when you were there? Were you speaking Japanese fluently?
41:09Harris Salat:I speak Japanese still. I speak to Japanese to Japanese people, naturally. They don't speak much of English. Some does, but it's become much better. Like, past 10 years, it's just, you know, every year Japanese, more Japanese people speaking. Yeah.
41:31Tadashi Ono:But to bring that American sensibility into the Japanese restaurant culture, was it challenging to work with Japanese staff and crew? In Japan, yeah. Yeah, was that challenging for you after spending decades?
41:47Harris Salat:It wasn't that bad, challenging, but just a little nuance that it could be different. Yeah. So it was okay.
42:00Tadashi Ono:It's cool. I'm glad you're back. Oh, thank you. I'm glad to be here, too. You're great. You're terrific.
42:07Harris Salat:Oh, thank you.
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44:04Tadashi Ono:Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. On This Is Taste, we ask guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid-fire Fast and Furious taste check. Are you ready?
44:18Harris Salat:Okay, very fast.
44:20Tadashi Ono:Yeah, we'll do it fast. Okay. The best fruit. Japanese strawberry. So totally good. So good the worst vegetable.
44:30Harris Salat:I don't have it not one
44:32Tadashi Ono:I eat everything. Yeah everything everything.
44:34Harris Salat:Yeah, I don't like it. I don't have anything.
44:36Tadashi Ono:I don't want you get a pass for that Yeah, yeah. What is your typical breakfast?
44:41Harris Salat:Miso soup and rice every day not though
44:44Tadashi Ono:Not so great or soba.
44:47Harris Salat:Oh, yeah, I like soba in the morning. Yeah, you make that at home No, I buy just dry soba. Yeah, yeah. But I like especially with grated mountain potato. Oh, yeah.
44:59Tadashi Ono:Yeah, it's good. I like that a lot. And I think the grating of vegetables found in the book in many places. Yes, yes. Love that. I love that. The best dessert? Japanese fruits. Yeah. Yeah.
45:14Harris Salat:Everything Japanese.
45:15Tadashi Ono:Hey, fair, fair, fair. Yeah. When you're craving fast food, where are you going? Pizza. Yeah? Yeah, pizza joint. Do you have a favorite one?
45:25Harris Salat:I live in Westchester, right? Yeah. There's a pizza joint called Pizza de la Rosa in New Rochelle. Oh, yeah. It's really good. Yeah. I like the place. I love that. Also, Mamaronek, you know, the South. Oh, yeah. That's from Narimac. Yeah, that's her favorite. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
45:45Tadashi Ono:A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead.
45:49Harris Salat:La Calavera. Yeah. Yeah, it's a really good place. Really, really good.
45:54Tadashi Ono:Are you still in touch with the family?
45:56Harris Salat:Yes. Yes, we're very good friends. Yeah, they're nice people. Rita Jamey, Andre Jamey, they're doing a phenomenal wine champagne business too. They sure are, yeah. And their son Nick runs to be green. They're really working hard and product is amazingly good.
46:12Tadashi Ono:Yeah. Yeah. Have they ever talked about rebooting it? Like bringing it back as a proper full time?
46:17Harris Salat:We have some point. And there is a talk we're going to open in Tokyo too.
46:23Tadashi Ono:Yeah.
46:24Harris Salat:Yeah, but it didn't happen.
46:26Tadashi Ono:Yeah, it's challenging to open restaurants. Oh, God. Yeah. Your favorite city to visit for food? Tokyo. Yeah. Yeah.
46:37Harris Salat:Oh, nowhere else. Do you go back often? I do, yeah. Yeah. Like twice a year.
46:43Tadashi Ono:Oh, that's nice.
46:43Harris Salat:Yeah, yeah. Well, just, you know, I mean, Japanese restaurant business, right? Yeah. So all these ideas and things, I always get there.
46:53Tadashi Ono:Do you take some of your colleagues from this new project to Japan?
46:58Harris Salat:Well, last year we went with people from the Rural 3rd or the Sunday hospitality. We traveled together a little bit, yes.
47:09Tadashi Ono:That'd be fun.
47:09Harris Salat:Yeah, that was good. good you know we've been some some of the best restaurant a good restaurant in tokyo yeah
47:16Tadashi Ono:that'd be fun right last one your favorite sandwich tonkatsu sandwich oh yeah yeah pork cutlets sandwich oh so good oh wow what's this what's the condiment typically on that
47:33Harris Salat:tonkatsu sauce yeah it's a katsu sauce right cabbage shirade cabbage yeah yeah milk bread
47:40Tadashi Ono:Milk bread, yes. Milk bread. Exactly, yeah, Japanese bread. Oh my gosh, making me hungry.
47:46Harris Salat:Good panko.
47:47Tadashi Ono:Oh yeah, great, great fry on it. Yeah. Tadashi Ono, I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much for joining This is Taste.
47:55Harris Salat:I enjoyed this, Matt. Thank you for having me.
48:01Tadashi Ono:This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skirzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.
48:41Tadashi Ono:This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18+.
49:30Harris Salat:Visit Aurora.net for details.
From the publisher
Tadashi Ono spent nine years as executive chef of La Caravelle, one of America’'s great French restaurants—twice earning a three-star New York Times review—before walking away to cook the Japanese food he actually wanted to cook. Since then, he’s run Matsuri and Maison O; written four cookbooks with Harris Salat on Japanese hot pots, grilling, and comfort food; and opened Teruko, a sushi bar and Japanese restaurant in the subterranean belly of the Hotel Chelsea. We talk about his long career and his latest cookbook, Japanese Comfort Cooking.
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