In short
Ha Sung Lee (Netflix’s “Culinary Monster”) discusses his path through elite kitchens, competing under an alias on Culinary Class Wars, and opening his New York restaurant Oyette (“Oya”)—a contemporary, ingredient-driven tasting experience built around seasonal vegetables, ferments/preserves, and a two-level dining concept.
Guest backgrounds
Lee is a Korean chef who cooked for a decade in other restaurants including Gramercy Tavern, Geranium (Copenhagen), Automix, The French Laundry, and later helped open Atomix from scratch. He competed as “Culinary Monster,” reached the finals, and lost, but later opened Oyette aiming for Michelin stars.
Key claims
He says “there’s no such a master of cooking” and frames his career as constant learning. He describes Culinary Class Wars as mostly about cooking in the moment, not money. He emphasizes Oyette is not “Korean food” in a narrow sense; it’s contemporary cuisine using farm vegetables and top U.S. ingredients.
Notable examples
Palm Desert JW Marriott start; Geranium’s non-alcohol juice pairing; Atomix’s slow growth and R&D freedom; French Laundry’s daily menu system; Oyette dishes like mugwort ice cream with fava leaves and radish/end-of-season vegetable focus; downstairs lounge + upstairs dining; reservations open monthly with ~500 people on the waitlist.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOMatch Day Excitement
0:00 to 0:15
The hosts discuss the thrill of Match Day and its connection to food.
“And we're live on Match Day as Doug reaches for a buffalo wing.”
Culinary Background
2:02 to 2:58
Ha Sung Lee shares his experiences in the fine dining scene before appearing on Culinary Class Wars.
“I want to go over a lot of points in your career.”
Restaurant Preferences
2:58 to 4:06
Ha Sung discusses his favorite dining spots in New York and the cuisine he enjoys.
“If I go to Chinatown in New York, I like to go to Uncle Lou's.”
Starting in America
4:06 to 5:50
Ha Sung recounts his initial experiences working in America and the challenges he faced.
“There was kind of exchange student kind of program when I was in college in Korea.”
Early Culinary Experiences
5:50 to 7:40
Discussion of Ha Sung's early culinary roles and his journey to fine dining.
“You're in Palm Springs in the recession era, new to America.”
Learning and Fun in Cooking
7:40 to 9:10
Ha Sung describes why he finds joy in cooking and the learning process involved.
“And you said fun three times, which I love.”
The Food Truck Experience
9:10 to 11:13
Ha Sung reflects on his time operating a food truck in Korea after his initial stint in the U.S.
“So there's a constant learning and then new things to me.”
Career Development at Gramercy Tavern
11:13 to 13:20
Ha Sung discusses his externship at Gramercy Tavern and its impact on his career.
“And like, or I'll say you head back to America and you're at Gramercy Tavern.”
Career Development at Gramercy Tavern
14:02 to 14:15
Ha Sung discusses his externship at Gramercy Tavern and its impact on his career.
Summer Wardrobe Changes
15:19 to 17:00
Explore how summer influences personal clothing choices and preferences.
“Me personally, in my lived experience, summer does change the way I get dressed.”
Show all 27 chapters
Experience at Geranium
17:20 to 19:24
Discuss the legendary dining experience at Geranium and comparisons with Noma.
“So tell us about Geranium, about the experience of working in this kind of legendary place that in Copenhagen, you know, Noma obviously has its reputation, but Geranium was always right there with Noma.”
Transition to Spain
19:24 to 21:52
Haseong Lee shares his challenges in obtaining a working visa in Spain.
“So when I was there, I applied Blue Hill Stoneburns, Bennu, Borago in Chile, Astrums in Paris, Arpeggio in Paris.”
Building Atomix
21:52 to 24:13
Learn about the process of building Atomix from the ground up and the creative freedom involved.
“You're on JP's hip during the opening of that.”
Success and Departure from Atomix
24:13 to 28:00
Reflect on the accolades achieved at Atomix and the decision to leave for new opportunities.
“it's not always easy there's always challenges in restaurants but you always look at it as a learning opportunity why do you leave then?”
Trust and Transition in Culinary Career
28:00 to 29:30
Explore the trust placed in chefs and the journey of adapting to a renowned kitchen.
“I might visit a family because I haven't seen them over three years and then he said sure, so what's your starting date?”
Struggles and Team Dynamics
29:30 to 31:20
Learn about the challenges chefs face in high-pressure kitchens and the importance of teamwork.
“And first three months, six months, I was struggling a lot.”
The Road to Culinary Class Wars
31:20 to 33:00
Discover the turning point in Hasan's career and his aspirations for opening a restaurant.
“But it has to be different to manage the team.”
Investment Challenges and Opportunities
33:00 to 34:40
Understand the complexities of securing investments for a new culinary venture after a show.
“It's a tough time in 23, 24 in New York.”
Auditioning for the Culinary Show
34:40 to 37:30
Get insights into the audition process for a culinary competition show and the decisions involved.
“So I tried to meet a lot of people to find the investments.”
Culinary Monster: The Underlying Story
37:30 to 40:00
Learn about how Hasan embraced the nickname 'Culinary Monster' and his experiences on the show.
“Do you decide if you're on the black side or the white side, or did they decide?”
Post-Show Reflections and New Beginnings
40:00 to 42:00
Reflect on life after the show, including how a chance meeting leads to new opportunities.
“you make soondaegguk yeah which is a family recipe as the final dish you don't win spoiler but you make it just just there do you regret making that soondaegguk?”
The Journey to Netflix Stardom
42:00 to 43:14
Explore Hasung Lee's unexpected rise to fame after his show release.
“But they believed in this idea that Oya.”
Defining Oya: A Unique Culinary Experience
43:14 to 45:00
Discussing the concept and philosophy behind Hasung Lee's restaurant, Oya.
“I mean, there's these things that happen, but you're basically building a restaurant while you're becoming famous at the same time.”
Seasonal Ingredients and Creative Dishes
45:00 to 47:35
An overview of the seasonal ingredients and unique dishes served at Oya.
“The restaurant's not a Korean restaurant.”
Balancing Vegetables and Proteins
47:35 to 50:08
Hasung Lee shares his approach to balancing vegetables and proteins on the menu.
“The reason is that we don't have a greenhouse in the farm.”
Restaurant Success and Booking Insights
50:08 to 52:14
Insights on the restaurant's popularity and booking process.
“So it's not about like a protein heavy or vegetable heavy.”
Aiming for Michelin Stars and Sustainability
52:14 to 53:32
Hasung Lee discusses his goals regarding Michelin stars and sustainable practices.
“Getting a Michelin star is to have foundation for my team, for OYOT.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Hasung Lee:And we're live on Match Day as Doug reaches for a buffalo wing. He's got it! Oh, and he's gone for a can of Pepsi too!
0:07Zachary D. King:What a finish! There's no doubt about it, it just tastes better. Match Days deserve Pepsi.
0:15Hasung Lee:Plan B is a backup birth control option that's there for you when things don't go according to plan. It specifically works after unprotected sex and before pregnancy occurs by temporarily delaying ovulation. Plan B is available nationwide at all major retailers and through delivery apps like DoorDash. No ID, prescription, or age requirement. It's the number one OBGYN recommended brand of emergency contraception, and it won't impact your future fertility. That's Freedom to Be. Use as directed.
0:52Zachary D. King:When I was at a meet, sometimes I went to per se, maybe once a year, like twice a year. Every time I went there, they changed the menu. I was so surprised at the service, hardware, and everything. I was thinking, will I be able to ever build this kind of restaurant?
1:15Hasung Lee:This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard. Ha Sung Lee spent a decade cooking inside other people's restaurants. Gramercy Tavern, Geranium, Automix, The French Laundry, before Netflix viewers met him as Culinary Monster, the mysterious Black Spoon who muscled his way into the final round of Culinary Class Wars Season 2. While he lost in the finale, he opened Oyette anyways and is clearly shooting for Michelin stars. On this episode, I talk with Lee about what it's like to compete under an alias, and we hear about the chef's journey through some of the world's greatest chefs onto opening in New York City.
1:56Hasung Lee:I hope you enjoy this episode.
2:02Hasung Lee:Hasan Lee, welcome to This is Taste. It's so great to meet you finally.
2:06Zachary D. King:Yeah, great to meet you too. Thank you.
2:08Hasung Lee:Thanks for having me. I am very, very, very excited. We have a lot to cover. Your career is really cool. I want to go over a lot of points in your career. Well before Culinary Class Wars, I think you very much were part of the scene in fine dining, kind of under the radar. And now I walk into Oyat and I had a great meal there and I talked about it previously on Three Things. It's like they're all fans.
2:36Zachary D. King:Mostly. 90 % of the guests who watched the show and then was curious about the restaurant.
2:42Hasung Lee:Yeah. It's a pretty good business model.
2:46Zachary D. King:yes sure i mean i'm very lucky to have them of course running a restaurant in new york is not easy no and then once we open the door we are fully booked every night i think i would say i'm very fortunate absolutely well-deserved fortune we'll get to all that
3:03Hasung Lee:um before we start though when you're not on the clock working and i know you're working a lot it's a very labor-intensive service that you do at all yet um where are you dining out where do you like to go in New York?
3:17Zachary D. King:I love Chinese food. I often go to Flushing. If I go to Chinatown in New York, I like to go to Uncle Lou's. There. Or recently, I like to go to Muno.
3:32Hasung Lee:Yeah.
3:33Zachary D. King:It's a Korean restaurant. I think the food over there is way better than you can find in Korea, too. So, there. A lot of good places. I like Mama's, too. Pizza place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That one. I like casual food. Definitely.
3:50Hasung Lee:Yeah, with a friend. The naengmyeon at Muna's is really good. Yeah. Everything there is really good. It's one of those places, I know Eric Kim really likes it, and I've talked to him about it. It's not often in the top 10 of Korean restaurants in New York for some reason. I think what Chef Kim is doing over there is very typical Korean food you can find in K-Town, also in Korea.
4:16Zachary D. King:but in my opinion people not tend to pay a little bit more for finesse i mean if it's bulgogi it's two different bulgogi in my opinion it's not same a or b yeah the quality at muno is way higher but i don't know sometimes with the general diner in new york
4:38Hasung Lee:it doesn't matter of course you know and that's the problem when you're not in fine dining you're not in casual you're kind of in between we talk about muna a lot i'm glad you bring it up i wanted to give it some shine uh let's go back to your career uh you land in palm springs of all places for your first job in america your early job in america what's that like being new to america
4:59Zachary D. King:working out in the desert it was actually palm desert next to palm springs yeah yeah we'll It was JW Marriott Hotel. There was kind of exchange student kind of program when I was in college in Korea. And all Korean men has to serve military service for two years, but I didn't have to because I had a surgery when I was in high school. So I saved two years. I was thinking that, what should I do? Then, I don't know. For some reason, I can't even think about it right now. I just went to California, started working for a year in 2000, starting 2008. Yeah.
5:46Hasung Lee:It goes way back. Yeah. Almost 20 years ago. It's almost 20 years ago. You're in Palm Springs in the recession era, new to America. How's your English at that point? It was bad.
5:58Zachary D. King:I couldn't speak or a single word. I couldn't understand anything.
6:02Hasung Lee:Yeah.
6:03Zachary D. King:and there were some happenings but yeah
6:07Hasung Lee:it was fun tell me about the work you were doing and how are you starting to think about fine dining because your resume after that really it's fine dining it's some of the best in the world but you're starting at this JW Marriott in Palm Desert
6:21Zachary D. King:that was a moment I knew about like Michelins and then Culinary Institute of America back then when I was in college in Korea I was majoring culinary arts and I compared the curriculums the college in Korea and then the CIA it was totally different and I told my parents that I want to study more I think I can learn a lot more and after that there was like a one year working visa you can have that was a big thing that I one of the reasons I wanted to come to
7:01Hasung Lee:united states so you're in the desert are you are you cooking like are you on like the the different stations are you call me like what's yeah style it was actually i started at the seafood
7:14Zachary D. King:restaurant yeah but it was a 2008 economic uh in united states it was bad rough so the restaurant was closed down and a lot of people got fired but i have a contract to i have to work one year there so I transferred to Italian restaurant started working you know pasta grill etc it was a lot of fun and also it was in the Palm Springs so there was when there was like a US tennis open a lot of guests in the hotel we have I have to work in the banquet as well and I was maybe one of very few Asian guy in the hotel so the executive chef for the hotel asked me hey hasong if you want to work in the sushi bar sushi restaurant only in the weekend in the morning before you are you're shifting the italian restaurant so i said why not so in the weekend i went to the uh i went i worked for a sushi restaurant in the morning in the afternoon i work at italian restaurant and the weekdays i I sometimes go to the banquet kitchen.
8:25Zachary D. King:It was a busy restaurant.
8:26Hasung Lee:I bet. And you said fun three times, which I love. I mean, clearly you connect with cooking in a way that maybe some don't. You think of this as this is your life, your career, but this is also fun. Describe why this restaurant world, this industry, all this work that goes into what you do, why is it fun for you?
8:47Zachary D. King:It's because there is no such a master of cooking. True. I mean, I admire a lot of great chefs in the world, but I don't think they can make better kimchi jjigae than I make. Or, you know, if I adventure cuisine in Africa, I have no idea. So there's a constant learning and then new things to me.
9:14Hasung Lee:Yeah. so it's fun I mean the constant learning is obvious and if you like are surrounded by books and education and you love it I see the point I want to circle back you make the best kimchi in the world no I don't think so I thought I heard you were like saying your kimchi jjigae was no I'm just saying for example I don't mean to you know bait you into the culinary monster persona no no no No, no, you're off the clock for that. It's a more humble time now. It's a more humble time now. We'll get to that. Okay, so I see the movie of your life is you go back to Korea and you work on a food truck.
9:55Zachary D. King:Yes. So in 2008, the U.S. dollar was way expensive than the Korean money rate. So I saved a lot of money. So I went back to Korea. I wanted to do something exciting, fun.
10:12Hasung Lee:Yeah.
10:13Zachary D. King:So I bought a food truck and then ran that for a few months with my friends.
10:21Hasung Lee:Okay, so you start the food truck with your friends for a couple months. What's on the menu?
10:27Zachary D. King:It was, I mean, if you want to do the food truck in New York College, you don't want to sell expensive food, right? Everything can be a very reasonable price with a good quality. It was like chicken quesadilla, like braised tomato, like pork or something like that. Like Caesar salad, something like that.
10:52Hasung Lee:So you're hitting some like American and then like, you know, Mexican classics. No, it was more like whatever I wanted to do. Interesting. Yeah. Was this like a fun period in your life creatively? Were you just kind of riffing in this food truck? It was definitely a good experience. Yes. So back to the movie of your life, you head back to America. And like, or I'll say you head back to America and you're at Gramercy Tavern. But then you kind of knock off some incredible places. Like you work at Geranium in Copenhagen, Automix and French Laundry. And these are all incredible places to kind of start your career and develop.
11:31Hasung Lee:Talk about Gramercy Tavern. What is that like for you?
11:33Zachary D. King:so when i was at cia i did a ask my externship at grandma's tavern my opinion chef michael anthony he is really a mastering of the vegetables and then we but a lot of vegetables from uh union square market four times a week not only that we do whole like a butchery uh program from whole carcass to house made bacon and then the pastry program as well the burger buns in made in house everything pickles chips ketchup even ketchup like smoked onion aioli and a lot of things like a chicken liver pate during my time externship for four months was not enough to learn a lot of things so after graduating CIA I decided to go back to Gramercy to learn the rest but it was not even enough no I mean
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12:31Hasung Lee:but you get this itch and you then go to geranium yes because
12:38Zachary D. King:chef mike and grandma's tavern supported me the visa working visa process and then I got rejected rejected and then I ran out of money to apply another visa you know so I decided to leave United States and then I was thinking what's next and then grandma's tavern is a great restaurant and then with the high volume. So I was thinking maybe next step I'm going to do small like a cover count
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15:20Hasung Lee:Yes? I'm just speaking for myself here. Okay. I cannot speak for anyone else. Good. Me personally, in my lived experience, summer does change the way I get dressed. Oh, yeah. Right. You do it backwards all other times of year. I wear fewer parkas in the summer. That's true. The long underwear stays in the closet. Just some puffer jackets. I wear a couple. Do I wear the snow boots? Three days out of the week, not all seven. in. You know, at summertime you want the pieces that feel lighter, more breathable. I'm joking, of course. I sweat so much. I need light, breathable things and I love a weather that is conducive to that.
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17:19Hasung Lee:That's incredible. So tell us about Geranium, about the experience of working in this kind of legendary place that in Copenhagen, you know, Noma obviously has its reputation, but Geranium was always right there with Noma.
17:36Zachary D. King:When I was in Denmark, it was 2016. 16 and 17 10 years ago and my opinion I don't know Noma and geranium is not even comparable it's just two different style of cuisine back then Noma was a two Michelin star and then geranium was second year of the three Michelin star and the food when I look at him look at Chef Rasmus Kofut it was just art and then I research about him and then I find Booker's door. He was the only one chef who won the bronze, silver, and gold medal.
18:17Hasung Lee:They're all in the dining room too. Yeah. They're all sitting right. I dined there in - Have you been there? I dined there in 2016, so you were working there. One month? Yeah, I was there in August 2016. Okay. I was in Copenhagen for the Mad Symposium. Oh, okay. And my memory from Geranium is, of course, this art, and I agree with you, they're very different restaurants, No Man Geranium. Yes. What I most remember, and I've talked about a little on the show is the juice pairing.
18:42Zachary D. King:Yeah. Holy shit. Yeah, non-alcohol pairing.
18:45Hasung Lee:The non-alcohol pairing in 2016 at Geranium, I've never had anything like that.
18:48Zachary D. King:Yeah.
18:49Hasung Lee:Did you work on that?
18:50Zachary D. King:Yeah. Well, that's a dynamic team side. Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. But Soren, the owner and sommelier. Yeah, Soren. Yeah, he's really good at the wine program, the beverage program. So, yeah.
19:04Hasung Lee:How long did you work at Geranium?
19:06Zachary D. King:Unfortunately, it was only a year. Chef Rasmus also asked me to extend my visa.
19:11Hasung Lee:Yeah. But I was 29 years old, and I only had one year left to work overseas, other restaurants, like my visa thing.
19:23Zachary D. King:And so I actually went to Spain after geranium.
19:30Hasung Lee:What's that like? I didn't have that in my notes.
19:32Zachary D. King:Yeah. so first I went to Barcelona applied for Enigma tickets and then and I went to Bosque area applied for Azimendi some other places but there is no like a such thing agreement between Korea and Spain for like a working visa thing so it was really hard to get a visa there yeah you tried Yeah, tried. So when I was there, I applied Blue Hill Stoneburns, Bennu, Borago in Chile, Astrums in Paris, Arpeggio in Paris. And then some of them respond me that I had an interview and some of them didn't send me the response. So I actually decided to go to Bennu.
20:28Hasung Lee:Yeah. Yeah. So you're in San Francisco, you get a visa, you work there. No, I didn't actually.
20:34Zachary D. King:It's a lot of story, I'm sorry. So while I was doing my visa process with the venue, then Chef JB contacted me.
20:42Hasung Lee:Got it.
20:43Zachary D. King:Hey, Hassan, I'm opening a new restaurant in New York. The concept is like ABC. And would you join my team? And I sent him like this long email, like all the questions.
20:58Hasung Lee:Very long.
20:59Zachary D. King:Very long. Long email. Yeah. And then he, there was a click moment that he said, like, Hassan, I want to make two Michelin star from the scratch to get it with you. And Ben Woo was already three Michelin star restaurant. Yeah. It was already well-made. Chef Corey Lee, of course, everyone knows. And JP back then had Artoboy, no Artomix.
21:24Hasung Lee:Of course, yeah.
21:25Zachary D. King:I mean, Artoboy was successful, but it was more casual restaurant.
21:28Hasung Lee:Right.
21:29Zachary D. King:And then he didn't have a fine dining restaurant then. And I thought that that's going to be more fun from the scratch to go all the way up. So I joined the team.
21:43Hasung Lee:That's incredible. You started AutoMix from the ground up, pre-opening.
21:47Zachary D. King:Yeah, during construction. Little end of the stage of construction.
21:52Hasung Lee:Yeah, so tell us about that, working with JP and Elia and the team. You're on JP's hip during the opening of that. And I think I remember you now from the opening team. Oh, really? Yeah. I remember going early and loving it and having, because you would, you know, it's an open kitchen. So you would come out and serve dishes, you know, and talk with us, speak with us. Funny how that works. What's it like trying to get New Yorkers to buy into this concept at this price point? I think Korean food, especially in the fine dining sphere. there's obviously Jungshik downtown had certainly was there and had a reputation but it was still a very hard sell for New Yorkers myself covering it felt like it was not quite there I mean it was being overshadowed by a lot of other cuisines so what's it like to build out of mix with JP
22:45Zachary D. King:that part to attract more in New Yorkers I think it was more JP and Elliot I didn't do much to be honest what I did at out of mix was just full focus about the food. And JP and Ellie are smart enough to approach a little different way to have more guests. Not from the beginning. It was successful. We sometimes have empty seats. I recall hearing those stories. Yeah. Slow growth. Yes. Slow going. Yes. And JP gave me freedom about the food that I was able to do a lot of fun like experiments and there was no limit that Haseong you can't do this you can't do this I was just doing a lot of R &D stuff and then sometimes it works sometimes of course it doesn't work but yeah
23:43Hasung Lee:Would you say your time there was successful? Of course
23:47Zachary D. King:every time I go somewhere it's successful I think there's no failure because I learned at least one thing that's successful and yeah whether it's good or not it'll be helpful for me in the future if it's not good then I'll learn that oh in the future I wouldn't do this
24:11Hasung Lee:it's great mindset I love that so it's not always easy there's always challenges in restaurants but you always look at it as a learning opportunity why do you leave then?
24:23Zachary D. King:so I was there like three and a half years and then we achieved the two mission and star worth 50 best which we didn't expect it at all no a lot of things a lot of accolades like the James Beard yeah that like the New York Times
24:40Hasung Lee:it's the most decorated restaurant in New York in the past decade yeah hands down there's no award that Automix has not won and been recognized for it's truly that's objective yeah So I asked JP and Elia, what's next for me?
24:57Zachary D. King:Back then, they were preparing Nauru, Rockefeller Center. I suggest if I can oversee the entire restaurant's group, Atta Boy, Atta Mix, and Nauru. And then JP told me, I want you to just focus on the Atta Mix because we started from the ground together. and then you know the style of our cuisine and service. So to me, it was like I need more motivation.
25:29Hasung Lee:Yeah.
25:30Zachary D. King:And then sometimes when I was at a mix, sometimes I went to Per Se maybe once a year, like twice a year. Every time I went there, they changed the menu. I was so surprised that the service, hardware, and everything. I was thinking, will I be able to ever build this kind of restaurant? My answer was no, never.
25:57Hasung Lee:With your background at that point, up to the point at Automix? Yes, yes.
26:02Zachary D. King:So I decided to leave Automix and try to learn more. So I went to OG French Laundry.
26:10Hasung Lee:OG. OG. I mean, for fine dining in America, and especially in thinking about a restaurant that is a destination that is more than just sitting down and having a meal. Right.
26:23Zachary D. King:Clearly different. Yeah. And also, it was after COVID. And I've never seen the TKRG group hire as a kitchen manager from outside of the restaurant. They always have people promoted inside. So like Atomix, when I was there, I have an understanding of the cuisine and the style. But I saw the culinary agents, then they're hiring sous chef. So I sent my resume and then cover letter. And then a few days after, I was like, I told my friend, the chef de cuisine at Atomix, I don't get any response. Maybe I was rejected. and I got a phone call.
27:07Hasung Lee:That day?
27:08Zachary D. King:That day. So cool. Yeah. It was an executive sous chef back then. He left once I started working there. But, hey, I want to do the interview. And then, okay, yes, when is a good time for you. And I had a phone call with Chef David Britton. Oh, I'm still nervous. Yeah. You think back then, it was a nervy time. Yeah, of course. I mean it's the French laundry and then Chef Thomas Keller and David Briden he was there almost 20 years 20 years working there and he called me I still remember the phone call was only 3 minutes long hey how are you I'm good Chef how are you I'm good so what's your plan so I'm like yeah I'm gonna leave in a few months okay what do you do after that I might visit a family because I haven't seen them over three years and then he said sure, so what's your starting date?
28:13Zachary D. King:I was like I wasn't asked to come to trial or I don't know, like a FaceTime interview or something he doesn't even know my face he had done his homework though, David I don't think so maybe, I don't know
28:28Hasung Lee:he was asking around I mean, it's really cool to hear this story because this is how it works, the highest level of dining. If you've been at AutoMix for XYZ years with all the acclaim, there's a trust.
28:40Zachary D. King:Yeah.
28:41Hasung Lee:There's a trust there that you're going to figure it out.
28:44Zachary D. King:And then I told him, like, Chef, so I'm coming back from Korea, like this date. Okay, let's start that together. And then before I started working, I went to Napa Valley to meet him, of course.
28:57Hasung Lee:Yeah.
28:57Zachary D. King:And he gave me the tour of the restaurant and the garden, the farm.
29:01Hasung Lee:Yeah.
29:01Zachary D. King:Just two of us. And I had so many questions to him. Like, chef, why did you hire me? Because I don't have any French background, French cuisine background. Yeah. I don't know. Why? Why? And he's like, look at your resume. If I don't hire you, who do I hire? That's incredible. So I was like, thank you, chef.
29:24Hasung Lee:Yeah.
29:25Zachary D. King:Thank you, chef. And then I started working at the French Laundry as a sous chef. And first three months, six months, I was struggling a lot.
29:35Hasung Lee:Yeah.
29:37Zachary D. King:Because Atomix is such a small team.
29:40Hasung Lee:Yeah.
29:40Zachary D. King:And then Geranium is not like, I mean, the restaurant is big, but the number of team members are not big.
29:50Hasung Lee:Yeah.
29:51Zachary D. King:And then French Laundry, there's like 60 people in the kitchen.
29:54Hasung Lee:Yeah.
29:54Zachary D. King:200 people in the restaurant. I'm talking about employee and I was struggling a lot.
30:00Hasung Lee:Is it competitive amongst all the commis and the sous chefs and the folks above you? I think every restaurant has some competitions.
30:11Zachary D. King:If you have desire. If you don't, who cares? It's just a job. Just go home. Yeah, exactly. But it was more about teamwork, I would say. Of course. Because the system at the French lingerie is incredible. They change the menu every day. Depends on the produce coming from across the street. Yeah, the garden farm, yeah.
30:37Hasung Lee:Yeah.
30:38Zachary D. King:Every day we write the new menu. We change the new menu. And then we train and mentor the gourmets and the line cooks. The system is just incredible.
30:49Hasung Lee:You took to it. Even though you had struggles in the first months, you ended up rising through the organization. Yeah.
30:55Zachary D. King:So I was written up, actually, by Chef David. Hey, Hasan, if you work like this, then you can't work at the French Laundry anymore. You got to reprimand. Because of my verbiage, my action that I use in the kitchen. Because Outer Mix was my kitchen. And then the French Laundry, I have to be a part of the team. I'm not like a leader position. I mean, yes, I do. Yes, I am because I'm a sous chef. But it has to be different to manage the team. And then I was struggling, struggling. I had a hard time. And then one day I knocked the door, Chef Braden. Chef, I have something to tell you. I really want to do this job really good.
31:43Zachary D. King:I want to overcome this situation. I need your advice. I need your help. I really want to do better. And I think that there was a moment that Chef Braden showed me his trust to me, I think. Okay, this guy wants to do better. Really, I mean, he's not giving up. So, yeah.
32:06Hasung Lee:So then what do you change? How do you change your attitude? How do you change your direction? You obviously have the skills. There's clearly a communication. Maybe it's the way you're interacting with your fellow chefs is not working out dynamically.
32:22Zachary D. King:I don't think I have a problem with my cooking skills.
32:26Hasung Lee:No.
32:26Zachary D. King:It was more like management skill, communication with the team, the orders, organization, and everything. It's just about system, like I said. So that's the part I really learned a lot. Yeah.
32:42Hasung Lee:Yeah. So you rise and you thrive. I think so. Yeah. Where does that story kind of end, and where does culinary class wars, where does the culinary monster become born?
32:58Zachary D. King:It's not related to anything about my career and then my time at the show. Yeah, so I left the French Laundry. saying that chef keller that chef i'm gonna open my own restaurant before the tv show before way
33:19Hasung Lee:before it was like two years before the show what year are we talking right now 2023 okay so i was at the french laundry for two years and the chef keller and then chef britain knew that i
33:32Zachary D. King:came here like two three years and then i'm gonna open my own restaurant and i told chef keller chef I'm gonna leave and then he gave me a lot of advice real advice
33:45Hasung Lee:was he dressing a chicken while he gave you advice? joking I'm so joking it's that you got the joke
33:57Zachary D. King:so I came back to New York and then Kiro Kihun actually flew to San Francisco when I was there hey Hasan it's the time we do the restaurant together So I came back to New York, but at the time the investments and the space got all canceled.
34:18Hasung Lee:It's a tough time in 23, 24 in New York. Real estate is really still feeling the effects of the pandemic, and it's a crunch to find the right spaces.
34:27Zachary D. King:Also, opening a restaurant is not easy. It takes a lot of money. It takes a lot of time and energy. I was lost, basically, because I have no money. I have no space. What should I do? What should I do? So I tried to meet a lot of people to find the investments. And then so that culinary classwork was a small part of it. If I participate, make a good result, should I get any investment?
34:59Hasung Lee:Interesting. So you're talking to Kian, who's from Hand Hospitality. one of the he's the founder of the company and you're just trying to raise money with him yes but it's not an easy thing it's because Oya
35:13Zachary D. King:is not working with Hent Hospitality
35:15Hasung Lee:okay
35:17Zachary D. King:working with Kian personally
35:19Hasung Lee:got it so that's a good distinction I appreciate that it's important to say it's with Kian individually so do you just like are you recruited to audition for the show do you send in a tape how does how do you enter that world because at that point the show had been out right and you knew what was happening right so
35:41Zachary D. King:the filming the show was last year april and may yeah uh like a month and a half two months and then during the time when i was in korea i didn't talk to kiro at all at all and he didn't
35:58Hasung Lee:talk to me at all too you were sequestered you couldn't talk to anybody right while you're
36:03Zachary D. King:no no no when i was in korea my time in korea got it got it so i told i asked him like why don't you call me or text me or talk to me and he was like i want you to focus on the show to make a good result and uh after the show maybe uh two days after i came back to new york uh in the flight I was thinking that I might go back to Korea. What am I doing in New York? I have no money. I have no space. I think I'm done here.
36:36Hasung Lee:Let's back up before we get to the point of the flight. How do you get on the show? How does that happen?
36:42Zachary D. King:It's the same thing with my career. And then the producer team, production team, contacted me. Yeah. That would you participate in the show? I think I rejected at least three times.
36:53Hasung Lee:So they kept bugging you, and you're like, you just didn't want to do TV? You just felt it wasn't really true?
36:59Zachary D. King:I'm not like a media person, I would say. So I rejected a couple times. But one of my friends took a part for season one. So he told me that, like, hey, Hassan, do something. I think it'll be a great opportunity to find something out, you know. So I was thinking, yeah, maybe. So I call them back. I will do it.
37:27Hasung Lee:And they're like, okay, we want you in Korea in April to start, basically. Do you decide if you're on the black side or the white side, or did they decide? They decided. They decided that your profile wasn't big enough. And for those who don't know the show, the white team is more well-known, has profile, and black is more anonymous.
37:47Zachary D. King:Yeah, I agree. And also, I think now they want me to do like a kind of underdog thing. Yeah. So it's not because of my career. Yes, of course, I haven't been, I've never been the position like an owner chef.
38:07Hasung Lee:No. So, and also versus white spoon chefs are very well known. Yeah.
38:14Zachary D. King:either they are owner chef or the chef at the restaurant who achieved a lot of things already. Yeah. And I didn't at the moment.
38:24Hasung Lee:Talk about the production. Edward Lee is a good friend of mine and I talked to him about it off the mic, but also in an episode. And he was saying like when he was doing season one, he was in the hotel room like practicing, staying sharp.
38:37Zachary D. King:Yeah.
38:38Hasung Lee:What's it like for you while you're competing? Because it's over six weeks. It's a lot of like.
38:43Zachary D. King:right right it's a lot of work half of the uh mission was uh that i was able to prepare a little bit and then another half was like that i knew at the moment uh at the site on the site uh it was just i don't know i it was a lot of fun to be honest yeah Yes, I practiced a little bit, but it was more like I enjoyed the moments focused on the cooking. Not about the investment or the restaurant or like money whatsoever. Just like cooking food. So where does Culinary Monster come from? The team, the production team just had a name for me. They just named you one day? They gave me the name, Culinary Monster.
39:36Zachary D. King:and the chef, if you don't like, you can change it. I was like, what should I do? I didn't really care about the name, to be honest. I know. So I was just like, yeah, whatever, let's do it.
39:46Hasung Lee:I love it. And totally, I believe you on that. You're very straightforward with all of this and I appreciate that you're just like, all right, it's just a name, I'm going to do it. But as fans of the show know, of course, you really thrive on the show. You're winning. You make it to the finals. you make soondaegguk yeah which is a family recipe as the final dish you don't win spoiler but you make it just just there do you regret making that soondaegguk? not at all it's a great dish by the way I love that I love soondaegguk
40:21Zachary D. King:it was either jajangmyeon or soondaegguk for me my soul food definitely if I have to make one dish for myself it's either one but jajangmyeon is too I think too obvious.
40:34Hasung Lee:Yeah.
40:35Zachary D. King:Black team. Not that. Like, it has a strong characteristic for the food. Like, if I make it my own style of jjajangmyeon, I think it's just hard to beat the original one. And the sundae cook is just my soul food. So I decided to make it.
40:54Hasung Lee:The show wraps. You come back to New York. You're on that plane. Let's go back to that moment.
40:58Zachary D. King:Yeah. What's happening
40:59Hasung Lee:in your head? Because you know you did well. You can't really tell anyone though, right no like no one no one like not even family well back then i told now she's my wife but i told
41:09Zachary D. King:my wife and then yeah my parents okay you could tell some family that's good no i couldn't but i told my family yeah uh yeah so in the in the flight i thought that uh i'm gonna just go back to korea yeah to opening a small restaurant in korea it's gonna be easier than doing a new george so I arrived in New York about like midnight and I called Gihyeon that hey I'm back in New York and then he told me hey Haseong I have someone to introduce you let's meet tomorrow morning like at 9am 10am yeah sure so we met me and Giro another guy Giro saying that hey Haseong this is our investor wow I was like, holy.
42:02Zachary D. King:Okay, okay. Let's start the conversation.
42:04Hasung Lee:And they don't even know how you did. Not at all. You obviously haven't told them. No, no, no, no, no. They didn't know. No. No. But they believed in this idea that Oya.
42:13Zachary D. King:I think so. I think so. So that's how we met. For the first time, conversation started. And then now here you are. Incredible.
42:26Hasung Lee:more about the filming and really when the show drops it comes out I think December right December of last year January I mean you're an anonymous guy I mean you obviously are known in circles as Automix but you were at the French Laundry a year and a half ago possibly being fired all of a sudden you're on Netflix internationally what the hell is that like?
42:58Zachary D. King:I'm a type of guy I don't really have ups and downs so when the show released I was like okay sure and that was it it wasn't changed a lot of things to me maybe if I was in Korea yes a lot of people would recognize me I mean yes I am recognized a little bit in New York a lot of people came to come to the restaurant ask for photos yeah it's just like i i'm at the restaurant in the kitchen all day no i respect that i i
43:31Hasung Lee:it's sharing when dining there like literally i was there with a friend and everyone else is is likely korean yes many and everyone is there because of the show yeah they're very excited yes and i love it i love that attitude and energy in a restaurant it's almost like fan service in a way and that's a compliment you're you're playing for the fans in some ways and your Instagram goes up too. I mean, there's these things that happen, but you're basically building a restaurant while you're becoming famous at the same time. So people have kind of misunderstanding.
44:02Zachary D. King:Oh, this guy made a restaurant because of the show, has money now because the show released and then he was a second place. And then he probably has a lot of investment, like blah, blah, blah. But I don't need to explain all the small things, you know? I just need to show my cuisine and philosophy.
44:24Hasung Lee:So those assumptions are maybe not fully accurate?
44:29Zachary D. King:I think it doesn't really matter either way. Fair. Yeah, it's just what I do is just be in the kitchen and then try to make food, great food, and then try to provide a great service and then experience. And then for the guests, whether they know about the show or not, I want them to just enjoy the moment.
44:54Hasung Lee:Well, let's talk about the restaurant. I think that's an important segue to close this because I had a great meal there. I feel like my headline when talking about it on the show previously is while your profile, you're Korean and you did a show in Korea. The restaurant's not a Korean restaurant. And you talked about geranium and French laundry and Gramercy Tavern and you have a farm upstate. how do you describe Oya in your words for those who maybe think it's going to be sundaeguk on the menu when it wasn't there i didn't have that
45:28Zachary D. King:first of all i've never worked or learned deeply in korean cuisine so if i do i'm korean but if i do korean cuisine i don't think it's really working well and then second uh bread ellis the farmer at the Crown Daisy Farm. He used to be a head farmer at the French Laundry Garden. And we started a conversation. I'm very privileged to have him so that I can source a lot of fresh vegetables when I want, what I want. That. And then to explain about my restaurant and cuisine, it's more like a contemporary cuisine with lots of hyposeasonal ingredients. and sometimes like a week before we have, I don't know, like 100 pounds of radishes.
46:21Zachary D. King:What should I do? I can consume everything. So I have to preserve it or ferment it so that I can capture the moments and can use it later. So a lot of fresh vegetables with the ferments and then preserves. Yeah.
46:38Hasung Lee:It sounds like, I mean, I live in the Hudson Valley myself, So having a lot of radishes in like early June, late May, sounds like you're up there. I think there is obviously a bounty, especially September into October. But the Hudson Valley isn't California. You have a pretty narrow window. And I'll say one thing. I loved the mugwort ice cream with the fresh fava leaves. Yes. That pastry. Are you pastry as well? Do you have a pastry chef? You do everything. Yeah. You do everything. Yes. They're delicious. And I love seeing favas coming from the Hudson Valley in that dish. Talk about a couple of the dishes right now that are on the menu recording this in mid-June, late June.
47:21So I'd love to talk through a couple of things.
47:26Zachary D. King:Currently, on the menu, we have radishes, end of the season, but radishes, turnips, kohlrabi, carrots, lots of root vegetables, which you don't really see at the Union Square Market.
47:38Hasung Lee:No.
47:38Zachary D. King:The reason is that we don't have a greenhouse in the farm. Oh. We do. That's only for the seeding.
47:45Hasung Lee:Yeah.
47:46Zachary D. King:Sapling seedings, yeah. Yeah. So everything grows from the soil. So it takes more time. It takes more energy and effort. So it grows very slowly. And the season is different. It's two hours away from here. It's a little colder climate. So we still have a little bit of roof vegetable, but we are getting more cucumbers and you know eggplants and then summer vegetable very soon mugwort ice cream you talked about so one day brett gave me a tray of fava shoots hey haseng you want this i'm like yeah sure why not so i was thinking i tasted it what should i do i wanted to sell it for like atelier downstairs at the restaurant but if you go to france you know sometimes after your steak course, you have a salad.
48:35Zachary D. King:Absolutely. And then into desserts, right? Absolutely. So I was like, what if I do dessert slash salad? So the mugwort has very herbaceous flavor. The Mayan lemon has acidity.
48:47Hasung Lee:Yeah.
48:47Zachary D. King:And then the kiwi jerky has a texture and a sweetness. So is it salad desserts? But the components are pretty similar to salad. The acidity from the Mayan lemon, you know, XYZ.
49:02Hasung Lee:I love the dehydrated kiwi in there. And to know that you're doing the pastry side is just so impressive. It was one of the standouts of the meal was the final section. Thank you. Really amazing work. And I know you're working with, you know, you have a scallop, a signature scallop that you're putting on. You've got game birds. Not a lot of protein. You're not like going heavy. Right. Does that feel like a modern tasting menu to you?
49:29Zachary D. King:No, it's because I have to think about the circulation downstairs and then upstairs too. And the concept-wise, the space is different. So I decided to do more vegetable side that I want to present the vegetables from our farm. And then upstairs, I want to show more the finest ingredients I can find in the United States. So the quail we're getting from Sonoma, California. Lamb from Elisha and Fiddle Farm, one of the best lamb in the world. You know, butter is from Vermont. Yeah. Working at the Animal Farm Cramery. Beautiful bread service too. Really nice breads. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. So it's not about like a protein heavy or vegetable heavy.
50:19Zachary D. King:Yeah. But I want to show great vegetables, great protein. Not only the quantity wise, but the quality wise too.
50:27Hasung Lee:Yeah. Yeah. And you keep referring to the downstairs upstairs, just to clarify at this point is, is you start the courses downstairs in a lounge and then you, you step up some stairs and you're in this couple of dining rooms, beautiful space. Yeah. Be lots of light. It's cool. It's a, it's a nice evolution. Was that always the plan to have this two part?
50:46Zachary D. King:I wanted to always have a lounge area. Yeah. But when I found this space, the ceiling of the first floor is a way lower than the second floor. Yeah. So if guests comes for a tasting course who, like let's say A sits in the first floor, B sits in the second floor, I think that experience might be totally different. Completely agree. So I have to think that this will be one restaurant experience.
51:14Hasung Lee:Yeah.
51:14Zachary D. King:So I decided to have a lounge area, first floor, and then dining room, second floor. And then the interior also, all the wood we use for the interior sourcing from our farm. Plate as well, a lot of ceramics, design, space, and everything. It's really, really cool.
51:34Hasung Lee:How do you book there? It seems to be quite popular. I mean, you're booked out a little ways. You're laughing. It's got some ResiNotifies. people waiting
51:45Zachary D. King:we have about 500 people every day on the wait list yeah yeah we use actually 7 rooms yeah 7 rooms
51:53Hasung Lee:yeah
51:54Zachary D. King:so every month at noon we open the reservation for the next month for entire month I don't know just be ready click it click it
52:03Hasung Lee:it's the way it goes man with fine dining so you're booking out one month in advance right yes
52:09Zachary D. King:so soon July 1st we'll open Retovation for August. Yeah.
52:15Hasung Lee:It's really exciting for you. Are you going for Michelin stars? Am I? Yeah.
52:23Zachary D. King:Yes, but that's not my ultimate goal. What is the ultimate goal then? Getting a Michelin star is to have foundation for my team, for OYOT. I think, yes, I need to think about the business, but I also wanted to take care of my team, my people. So having alkaloids and the Michelin is not my final goal.
52:55Zachary D. King:Yeah, it's just my goal is to cook the food for a long time.
53:01Hasung Lee:I'm hearing that you want it to be a sustainable restaurant that opens and remains open for years to come.
53:08Zachary D. King:Yes. It took, from the projection, it took almost five years to open Oyat. So I collected a lot of references. I felt a lot of things about business side too. Yeah, but don't get me wrong. One day I want to get three Michelin star.
53:28Hasung Lee:There we go. You're honest once again. Hasan Lee, this has been a remarkable conversation. I'm a huge fan of yourself, just knowing you a little bit. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you.
53:45Hasung Lee:This Is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skirzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.
From the publisher
Hasung Lee spent a decade cooking inside other people’s restaurants—Gramercy Tavern, Geranium, Atomix, the French Laundry—before Netflix viewers met him as Culinary Monster, the mysterious “black spoon” who muscled his way into the final round of Culinary Class Wars season 2. While he lost in the finale, he opened Oyatte anyway and is clearly shooting for Michelin stars. In this episode, we talk with Lee about what it’s like to compete under an alias, and we hear about the chef’s journey through some of the world’s greatest kitchens.
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