805: Real Talk About Drinks Writing and Trend-Chasing Bars with Echo Lake’s Chloe Frechette 

0:00Hey, it's Christy from Lululemon and I'm here at the office checking out the Shake It Out shorts. These have been my go-tos and I kind of think of them as a middle ground between a true run short and a more playful, athletic, sporty short. They have all the performance you want for running, so a comfy liner, our lightweight, swift fabric, even a pocket for your keys. But what I really like is the flowy fit and layered hem. It gives it a little bit of volume, a little bit of fun, so they feel as good on a run as they do just at coffee afterwards. You can find the Shake It Out shorts in-store now or online at lululemon.com.

0:30Plan B is a backup birth control option that's there for you when things don't go according to plan. It specifically works after unprotected sex and before pregnancy occurs by temporarily delaying ovulation. Plan B is available nationwide at all major retailers and through delivery apps like DoorDash. No ID, prescription or age requirement. It's the number one OBGYN recommended brand of emergency contraception. And it won't impact your future fertility. That's freedom to be. Use as directed.

1:07We call it skimmer, dipper, diver. If someone walks through the door and they've never had rum or they think they don't like rum, we have something for them. And the person who's like, I've had a lot of Jamaican rum and I want to try some Guyanese rum, then we can sort of meet them there. And then for the diver who's been a rum nerd for a decade, plus we have something that's going to be exciting to them too. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard. Chloe Frechette spent nearly a decade as executive editor at Punch, the James Beard Award-winning drinks media brand, writing seriously about cocktails and the culture around them.

1:46Then she did what most drinks writers most certainly do not. She opened a bar. Echo Lake and Undercurrent, her two-story rum destination in Williamsburg with partner Paul McGee, opened this spring. One, a breezy daiquiri bar, the other, an intimate den of rare and vintage spirits. On this episode, I speak with Chloe about making the jump from writing about bars to running one, the vintage rum collection that includes pre-embargo Cuban Bacardi, and so much more. I hope you enjoy this episode.

2:21Chloe Frechette, welcome to This Is Today. So great to see you. Great to see you as well. It feels good to be here.

2:27Chloe Frechette:Yeah, back in the building. We used to work here together. Yeah, full circle moment. It's amazing. Well, I have so much to cover with you. You know, as an editor at Punch, we collaborated on that in the brief time I worked on it. And I just loved working with you. You're obviously an awesome hang, but also such a great journalist and writer and thinker about drinks and culture. And now you are a co-owner of a bar. Correct. Yeah. Kind of another weird, like, maybe it's not a full circle. It's a half circle. Half circle. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's sort of logical in a way to go from, you know, covering this industry for a decade to now sort of working in the industry.

3:09But it's also it's a little it's odd.

3:12Chloe Frechette:Yeah. I mean, I think you you come at it with such a journalistic rigor and an open mind and open heart, but also having strong opinions about what's working, what's not. Yeah. Great blend of skills. We'll get to all of that. I have to ask before we jump in, when you're not on the clock working long hours, I worked late last night, where are you dining out and where are you drinking in New York? I am one. I mean, I'm lucky that I live half a block from Stars, which just opened not that long ago from the Claude and Penny team. and that place has just like there's a completeness to the vision of that place that i am just find so appealing like it's like because even if your place goes all in on design and they nail everything and every little detail um you know the napkins are branded and blah blah blah this place not only does it design like it feels perfect but the the food and drink matches that and the style of service too it all just comes together in this way where it's like this was a complete vision and they nailed it i'm sure if you ask them there's stuff they're not happy with but i remember the first time i went there and i was just like it's a just 12 seat bar it's like so so cool and And then I like I went to use the bathroom and even the bathroom was just like every single detail was like thought out completely.

4:39And I was just like I was like they really nailed it.

4:42Chloe Frechette:When you look at the list at Starz, I mean, I don't know too much about it. Is it like grower champagnes if I remember? They have a yeah. I mean, they have a kind of awesome like curated wine list at all of their spots. But it's a lot. I mean, Paul, my partner Paul and I go there and neither of us is particularly like a big wine person. We're more spirits people. Um, so to be honest, we often get like the vermouth there, which they, they have like some nice vermouths on the menu and just vermouth and soda or just the vermouth on the rocks. Um, that's kind of what we gravitate towards. It's a great space to be in.

5:13Um, we also go to Bar Contra. Yeah. That's like, we're big Dave Arnold fans. He's actually there a lot of the time, which is awesome. Um, I sort of stand firm in the opinion that Dave Arnold's the only person who should be allowed to clarify any cocktails. He's like, he sort of unleashed this whole clarified cocktail, sort of like science-y cocktails. He wrote Liquid Intelligence, and that sort of became a textbook for a lot of bartenders. But it just got out of hand. And so I'm like, I like going to his bar and seeing how he's using the techniques that he pioneered. And to me, it's just like so, so dialed in.

5:55Chloe Frechette:And just a real pioneer with Booker and Dax. Oh, yeah. And really just going back further. And a good point about, you know, if you have a centrifuge, it doesn't mean you can make a great cocktail. Right. You can buy those on Amazon. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of clarifying for the sake of clarifying. And I think that's, we should really dial back on that. Well, tell me about Echo Lake and Undercurrent and really how you and Paul took your time to think about location and concept. And really just from the jump, what is happening in this space? because I went a couple weeks ago, and there's a lot of cool spaces there.

6:31Yeah. And that was a big draw of the actual space, which I'll talk about. But Echo Lake is a rum bar, an everyday rum bar. So it's not a tiki bar. It's not a Caribbean bar. It's really a showcase for the spirit and sort of the diversity of the spirit. um we sort of really knew we didn't want to lean into tiki specifically because as much as we like going to tiki bars and they can have amazing back bars and amazing drinks often what draws guests to them is sort of that immersive experience and like the theatricality of it and i think that can sort of um you know the rum can sort of get lost in that so we wanted to do you know, sort of showcase rum in a more everyday context and that really let the spirit shine.

7:19So that's kind of what we're going for at Echo Lake. And then undercurrent is our small 20-seat bar that's downstairs from Echo Lake. And the idea is that as you descend from Echo Lake to undercurrent, you're really diving deeper into rum because the back bar down there is a lot of rare, limited, hard to find rums, some vintage rums. And it's a very personal collection too, to me and Paul. And it's sort of a nice foil to what's upstairs. You sort of upstairs is like light and bright, tall ceilings. You sort of, the cocktails are very approachable. We want to sort of get people excited, dip their toe into rum.

8:00And then once they're converted, we want them to come downstairs and just see some of the really, really special stuff that we have.

8:08Chloe Frechette:The list is incredible. Yeah. And you can really geek out down there. And I like what you say. It's a rum bar for everyday people, essentially, I'm paraphrasing. And, like, there's so much context around rum. You wrote a book about tiki. There's charged opinions around rum. And I think sometimes we forget that it is truly a spirit in a glass. And I think the style of the bar, it's not ornamental. It doesn't say that you're in a tropical this or that. You have a cool fish tank, though. And just define what that means and rum, rum, agricole, what your menu really means. Yeah. I think, again, it was like we created, like when we were creating the menu, we had a philosophy in mind, which is sort of something we think about a lot with everything we do.

8:59We call it skimmer, dipper, diver. and the idea is that if someone walks through the door and they've never had rum or they think they don't like rum, we have something for them. And the person who's like, you know what, I really do, I've had a lot of Jamaican rum and I want to try some Guyanese rum, then we can sort of meet them there. And then for the diver who's been a rum nerd for a decade, plus we have something that's going to be exciting to them too. And so that's sort of like how we went about thinking about the whole concept to be honest. Basically we say there's a rum for everyone and we stand by that.

9:36Chloe Frechette:It's very very smart and I think it's a spirit that and when when whiskey and bourbon was taking so much oxygen out of the room, rum probably got a little forgotten. Yeah, yeah completely. Of course now the the whiskey guys are coming for rum too but so you have to be careful they're coming for the four squares specifically but yeah that's it's been a little bit unsung I think that's fair fair to say and i think people it's really exciting to watch them sort of like be converted at the bar and sort of like we've had people come in who think they're just going to order a glass of wine and um our team sort of talks them into a cocktail and like watching them try it yeah and really like you can see that they're enjoying it on their face is it's really cool yeah i didn't prep for this but by the way the menu the food at your bar is incredible oh thank you we're not gonna talk about it that much but yeah yeah i think i talked about in three things.

10:29I'm glad to hear that. Cast iron has been a staple in kitchens for generations, and Smithy is bringing that tradition into the modern kitchen. They craft vintage-inspired cast iron that, unlike the rough and bumpy cookware you may be used to, is polished smooth for a naturally nonstick cooking surface that only gets better with time. As a listener of This Is Taste, we're excited to offer you free U.S. shipping on your order with the code THISISTAST. Whether you're searing the perfect steak, baking cornbread, or cooking Sunday breakfast for the family, Smithy Cookware is built to perform for a lifetime.

11:09It's the kind of cookware you'll reach for every day and one day pass down to the next generation. Visit smithey.com, that's smithey.com, to explore their collection of American-made cast iron and carbon steel cookware. Every piece is made without chemical coatings and crafted to become an heirloom in your home. Again, use the code THISISTASTE for free U.S. shipping on your order at smithy.com.

11:42David! Yes? I'm just speaking for myself here. Uh, okay. I cannot speak for anyone else. Good. Me, personally, in my lived experience, summer does change the way I get dressed. Oh, yeah. Right. You do it backwards all other times of year. I wear fewer parkas in the summer. That's true. The long underwear stays in the closet. Just some puffer jackets. I wear a couple. Do I wear the snow boots? Three days out of the week, not all seven. You know, at summertime, you want the pieces that feel lighter, more breathable. I'm joking. Of course, I sweat so much. I need light, breathable things, and I love a weather that is conducive to that.

12:21Maybe some linen, some soft organic cotton. Well, I do like the sound of that. Well, Quince focuses on high quality essentials like that. They're going to feel, they're going to look amazing. Maybe you want Quince European linen pants and shirts. Okay. Starting at just$34. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80 % less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And they go way beyond clothing. They've got sofas. They got cookware. They got bedding. You're going to recommend this brand for everything truly as someone with a Quinn's comforter.

12:56Can I share a product that I really love from Quinn? Please, please, please, I beg of you. An organic Turkish waffle robe. That's right, fellas. I get out of the shower. Maybe I need this. Instead of just toweling off, I'm throwing a robe over my ass. Your wife must love that. Yep. And I got it in a color. It's a green color. Moss. Moss. I like these names for the colors. Well, elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash check for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's quince.com slash check for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash check.

13:43This episode is brought to you by Goodr. This show takes me everywhere. farmers markets at 8 a.m., outdoor food festivals, and on the road recording Taste Travels episodes. During much of this time, the sun is absolutely cooking me. For all of it, I've been wearing gooder sunglasses, and honestly, they've become one of those things I didn't know I needed. There's no slip, no bounce, and polarized lenses. They just stay on your face while you're moving through the world, and they look great doing it. The colors can be bold if that's your style. I like mine in black, and I truly wear these all the time now.

14:22I love these sunglasses. Head to goodr.com slash taste. That's G-O-O-D-R dot com slash taste to claim$10 off your first order.

14:33Chloe Frechette:That's goodr.com slash taste. But back to your work at Punch, I think it's so interesting. nearly a decade leading that publication with talia baioki and just really creating a real universe for really serious drinks journalism but also a lot of heart and fun yeah kind of woven in really a huge accomplishment there what made you leave the publication to open this bar because i know you just personally knew you were so invested in punch yeah i love punch it's awesome um i i Loved working there. Talia Bayoke is like an amazing boss and mentor to me. But I, you know, I was there for like 10 years, just just under 10 years.

15:14And it's sort of like there's like a bartender adage. It's like the more successful you are, the less you bartend. And that's sort of something that I felt as well, whereas like sort of the higher I climbed the ladder, so to speak, I was, you know, becoming more removed from some of my favorite parts of the job, which was really interacting with the industry and sort of getting to peek behind the scenes and just getting this glimpse into a world that I think is actually, at least at that time, felt very, like, obscured. And so I didn't know that I would go into bar ownership, but I did feel like for a while that my next move would be more towards this industry in some way.

15:55Um, and you know, 10 years in, it just felt like it's a good, good time. It's a good run.

16:04Chloe Frechette:And I have to ask you, you know, I just remember being in the room when you were deciding on best bartenders of the year and just like scrutinizing service and having these strong opinions. What did you learn? And this is a big question, right? From, from that time as a journalist, uh, to like actually creating a business plan, operating, opening. you're now a couple months in like it's is it is it like a lot different than you thought and maybe looking back maybe were you too hard on bars as a writer who didn't actually have to work at them well you know what's funny is like one of the things that I noticed sort of an immediate thing that happened was like I became much worse at responding to emails and I used to used to drive me crazy trying to like you know it was like getting in touch with bartenders like herding cats and now that I'm on the other side I'm like they're trying their best and they're really like and I know how important it is to like stay on top of your email and like being on the other side of it I'm like I'm not ignoring you but I kind of am but it's not on purpose I really do want to talk to you one thing that I think I sort of took away from covering the industry for so long is that there's a lot of trend chasing that happens and I you know drinks media plays a part in that and sort of naming these trends and then, you know, perpetuating them.

17:20But I think when I think about the bars that I want to go to, the bars that I really like, they sort of exist outside of those cycles. And they sort of recognize that, I don't know, like to actually, they basically, they have a real point of view and they're trying to do something that will stand the test of time, rather than that will get sort of that quick instant, you know, flash in the pan moment. And that's something we've taken to heart. Like, I feel like we really stand behind what we're doing. It's not we weren't like, oh, I bet this would like really be like a clicky drink because I can think of some drinks that I'm like, you know, people would love that on Instagram.

18:01It's just not that's not what drove us in this whole process. and just sort of one like granular thing that I learned from being on like the media side for so long. It used to drive me crazy when bars didn't put their location in their bio. Like the city, I'm like, what city are you in? What country are you in? Like I'm now having to click out of Instagram and like Google. Wild stuff. It's just like, and you don't think of it because you're just, I mean, I guess you don't think of it, but it used to drive me crazy.

18:28Chloe Frechette:Wild stuff. So I've got the address in the bio and I've got the menu on the website and those two things used to drive me crazy. Menu on the website, address on the website. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you have a cool like aesthetic there. Maybe minimal, but like no dress. It's so interesting when you talk about buzz because I wanted to ask you a little bit of a media question. Like, you know, punch 10 years and going, you know, doing serious journalism around drinks. But it seems it's it's pretty obvious that the influencer culture has taken over drinks media. Yeah. And the shift is real. Yeah.

19:01Chloe Frechette:And I want to know your take on current strengths, media, and how this shift has really changed the way bars operate, et cetera? I mean, I think you're seeing, I mean, I think this is happening sort of like broadly in culture with sort of this whole Instagram first mentality. Like it just leads to this sameness that, you know, and it's like, there's sort of a sameness and like a rapid sameness because, Because, you know, what used to take, I don't know, months or years to sort of travel from one area to another can happen sort of instantly because a bartender in London can see what a bartender in New York is doing in real time and sort of, you know, then they can go and R &D it themselves the next day, you know.

19:49So it's like there's this sort of, I mean, especially on the 50 best, no offense, but there's sort of a 50 best style that's like, and to me, it's very same, same. So it's like I could go to any of those bars and I couldn't tell you what country I was in because the drinks are all the same. And I'm going to get a lot of hate for that. But no, it's not.

20:09Chloe Frechette:You're speaking truths. And I echo that, too, with even food as well, to some extent, the restaurant list. Yeah. A lot of the same tricks, a lot of the same green bottles of water in those spaces, too. And like, yeah, guys, like, what are we doing here? Yeah. And I think it was like a personal sort of pet peeve of mine is, you know, as much as I do think like these bars are doing really creative things, they are creating delicious drinks. Like they're so driven by sort of like the concept of the drink. And often that concept is like a single flavor. So it's like apple or, you know, strawberries and cream.

20:46And then they achieve that flavor really well through what they're mixing in the glass. But you can't taste the base spirit. You couldn't like I cannot name as much as I think it's delicious. I can't taste the base spirit. And that's like a major pet peeve of mine.

21:02Chloe Frechette:You might as well be drinking boba. Right. Like you can't taste like the the boozyness in different degrees. Of course, it doesn't have to be overtly boozy. Yeah. It's a cocktail and it starts with the base spirit. Yeah. And the base spirit is like what. Yeah. It's what it should be built around in my opinion. But as far as like sort of the influencer of it all, I think what you're seeing is, again, we're not really geared towards that. And that might be why we're hurting a little bit because we're not really sort of designing these drinks to sort of blow up on Instagram. but um it's like what i miss about sort of the more like rigorous drinks media or even like food media as well is like especially i guess specifically with like criticism when a critic goes to a bar restaurant writes about it then when a reader or just a guest goes and like they've read that piece they sort of have they can sort of agree or disagree but there's something to engage with.

22:03Whereas I think with like when you go to a bar because an influencer went there and like took a video and, you know, said, wow, you have to check out this speakeasy in Brooklyn. It's so cool. You know what I mean? Like there's nothing in that to engage with. So then what happens is like you're the followers, they go, they take the same video, they post the same video, but they haven't, they don't even really care necessarily.

22:27Chloe Frechette:And their chances of going back is zero. Exactly. They do the flick and then it's over. It's the checkbox. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, listen, you should be packed. Like, go to Echo Lake. And like, I'm putting it in the show notes with the address. Thank you. I feel like this is such a great culmination of yours and Paul's careers and salve service cuisine. It's really one of my favorite bars. And one more question for you about just running a bar. What struck me when working with you is you never struck me as a big drinker. And I always thought I was respected that in some ways like that because I'm not a drinker, but I really do care about spirits.

23:07Chloe Frechette:Yeah. The world around it. You write a lot about spirits. And how does that work now? I mean, are you more in the spaces? No, you're absolutely right. I think it's a fair characterization. I'm not a big drinker. I subscribe to this sort of drink less, drink better philosophy, which I think is actually like quite pervasive now. I do think sort of like post pandemic, like not, not, we're not post wellness, but I think we all sort of had this moment of like realizing, okay, maybe just drinking sort of indiscriminately is not good for you. Um, but I think, yeah, I think like having this focus, such a focus, like I try everything, but I really am when I go anywhere I go, I'm like, I'm it's one or two drinks really.