808: The Man Who Coined Fusion Cuisine and Discovered Charlie Trotter with Norman Van Aken

24:03Norman Van Aken:I know. It's amazing. me too that you know you hear it read it whatever didn't hear it debated as well but um I had chance to cross a book in the same bookstore that I bought my first cookbook in and this is a book by a Frenchman named Ravel from Jean Francois Ravel who was a very scholarly writer and I was I was surprised it surprises me that I would even pick it up to read it because I mean I love to read but this was a little over my head it was seemed to me but there was something about how he was talking about cooking. And so I bought it and took it home and it just changed my brain. I mean, it was like, it was the way he explained the arc of history from the time of Taillevant around 1350 to the time of the Nouvelle Cuisine Fouve movement, Gommel, and all of that was this perpetual pendulum swing between simplicity and ornate, and how the aristocratic cooking or the cooking of the papacy would be the aristocratic, I mean, the complex thing.

25:09Norman Van Aken:And then there'd be the pushback and things that would be much more maternal and rustic and native. And so, you know, his supposition or his preposition is that there's this grand quarrel that's gone on over the centuries. And I felt like, you know, I do want to make, know how to make all the complex sauces, the mother sauces. I do, I've taught myself how to do those things or taught myself by reading or being lucky enough to work next to somebody who had also been to school. I never went to school. But I also knew that I abdored the powerful flavors in the most simple restaurants or at homes.

25:48Norman Van Aken:And so I decided that instead of it being an either or situation, I would fuse those two ideas. And so in his book, there's this place where he talks about this lover's quarrel that ends up in a marriage. And I wrote into the margin, a fusion. I mean, the book is over my head right now on a shelf. And that book is highlighted and underlined in so many different places. So I became, I had this, okay, now what? You know, what am I going to do? And it was me. So I wrote this essay and I only wrote it for myself. It was me kind of like creating a template for where I was. I needed to go. I knew I didn't want to follow a bunch of other ideas.

26:34Norman Van Aken:I wanted to create my own voice. And so I wrote this thing and it was a little bit obsessive to say the least. How I wrote it, rewrote it. The woman who was really the manager, she typed and typed and typed it for me. So I got to this place where I thought it was good. But I had no place for it. It was not created for a speech. But then coincidentally, I was invited to come to Santa Fe, along with a bunch of other people in business in the world, the American world of food, to a symposium. And they said, we want you to make a speech. And on the stage that morning, all asked the same question were Emeril Gossi, Charlie Trotter, Lydia Shire, and Tom Douglas.

27:17Norman Van Aken:All asked the same question. Why do you cook the way you cook? I'm like, well, I guess I'll just read the paper. It's a page and a half or so. And so I got up and read the paper. And a woman named Regina Schramling was in the audience. her column is American Taste. I didn't know her. I didn't know her until later. She wrote about it for a newspaper in Virginia. I think it went out on the AP wire. And then it went out into the universe, the young universe of food writing that we had in 1989 pre-internet. And I thought that was it. I mean, I thought it was in the sense of, okay, that's what I'm doing.

28:04But then I came to see that it went, in today's speak, viral.

28:09Norman Van Aken:It went around. I mean, I go past restaurants in this town that do Jamaican Indonesian fusion cuisine. Now, I must say, you heard me talk about one of the definitions of fusion cuisine, which was the high and the low, if you will, or the complex and then the powerfully purposeful maternal. But there was, in the essay, it did talk about it in two ways. One, it was like that, and the other is like when a person who maybe was from another country came to a new country to them, they would fuse things together in ways they had never done before. And that's what happened to the entirety of North America after Columbus.

28:53Norman Van Aken:Columbus, in the post-Columbian world, there was this amazing upheaval in terms of what people had to cook with and the way they approached cooking that went back and forth between the new world and the old world. It's so interesting that I'm just going to stop you there because we have much to talk about on this topic. But, you know, I'll just say from my point of view, fusion has had its real ups and downs as a term. And like it's been maligned as a term. It's been maligned as a cuisine type. It's also been celebrated. But what you just said really struck me. The fact that you, in that early paper, in the first mention of fusion, you mentioned that fusion can mean when somebody from a single culture is cooking from another culture within their country of origin or wherever it may be.

29:45And it makes me think about an essay Solejo wrote for Taste years ago called Assimilation Cuisine or What is Assimilation Cuisine? And, you know, I think in that essay and really in the blowback for fusion, a lot of times the examples were like wasabi mashed potatoes, like the most like kind of ham fisted versions of fusion. But in fact, you, the originator of the term fusion, were essentially thinking about assimilation cuisine as the root of fusion. So it's really interesting and reassuring in some ways. And I've always been a fan of the term fusion. I've written essays that said fusion is not an F word.

30:24It's something to celebrate. And I just think it comes down to what is good fusion and creative fusion and what is bad fusion. And I think you and Soleil and others were and are talking the same language in many ways. Yeah.

30:39Norman Van Aken:It can be refrigerator magnet poetry in a bad way. Yes. When it's produced in a bad way. You know, I was simply just so inspired by where I was living. You know, when you taste plantains that have been caramelized properly and a squeeze of lime and the black beans, it's like I want to be able to know how to make that. I think your cuisine, too, as your restaurant career evolved, you really were able to articulate this. Give us some examples of the way this essay inspired in the 90s more of your cooking and your style that you became well regarded for. Well, fusion to me happens everywhere. And it's always happened.

31:17Norman Van Aken:I didn't create fusion cooking. I never would say that. Fusion has existed since time immemorial. What I more purposefully decided I would do with it all was to create a style of food that would resonate with Florida. What is Florida? What is the makeup of Florida? and a person who was more involved with marketing at the early stages of this said, what are you calling what you do, Norman, because you and a few other people are doing something with this Florida cuisine that hasn't been done before. And he said, you know, like the American Southwestern food movement or the California food movement.

31:57Norman Van Aken:And I thought, okay, I understand when people say that. I get, you know, that's a very shorthand way of describing those places and the food culture. And I think it was at the time of the 500th anniversary of Columbus arriving. So this was 1992 versus 1492. And so that was on my mind when he asked this question. And long story short, I decided that my catchphrase for it and what I was going to dedicate myself toward would be called New World Cuisine. It gave me a lot of latitude, Matt. You know, when people say, some people use this word Floribbean, which I detest. I think it's a hyphenation that's got handcuffs on it.

32:45Norman Van Aken:If it's Caribbean and Florida, then what about Brazil? What about Venezuela? What about all these other influences that are part of living in Florida? So by saying New World Cuisine, it gave me a very broad canvas on which to paint. It's amazing to think about that term, New World Cuisine, in this day and age, because there's many different new worlds in america but but really focusing in on florida a state that i think has a lot of love and there's a lot of people who obviously live there who listen to the show and know the culture there's also like people who assume many things about your your fine state like you know of course disney has a presence in orlando you've got um you know a lot of mixed feelings about um the west coast i mean i'm not gonna try to litigate florida but i want to hear from you just what is exciting about being somebody who's really made your career in Florida kind of going back to um you know the the example of Faulkner I mean he he became just this extraordinary writer by talking about a very specific place and I felt that that was um I don't I wouldn't say predestined but it's the way it turned out for me and I guess you know in some way seeing Jimmy's success, you know, making Key West like his, his mythological Margaritaville was an example of someone also keying very definitely into a specific place.

34:11Norman Van Aken:When I got to Miami, there was an acceleration to input and influences. So it was supposed to Key West, very Cuban, Haitian, Bahamian, and Southern, Old South, a lot of Navy presence. coming to Miami, a lot more cultures were around to try inspiration from. Even a lot of the mother countries, people don't always think about how much of an influence of China had on the sugar industry in Cuba. You can go in the history books and see Cuban restaurants that would have side by side Cuban food and Chinese food in two different columns. I just felt that it was really rich territory to plum and the ingredients going to the Caribbean markets in Miami were much bigger than anything that we saw in Key West.

35:06Key West is not a great place to grow much of anything.

35:10Norman Van Aken:It's so hot and the soil is not good. And not that Miami is great, but you have this reverence and love affair of tubers and the very different fruits that we see in the northern places. And so, again, all these became tools for me to differentiate my cuisine from my friends and colleagues in California or New York or Chicago. Yeah, I mean, it's tropical. It's a mixing bowl of culture. It has a lot of people going there for celebrations and vacations. I mean, so Florida is its own universe in many ways. and living in Miami right now and you have your restaurant in Orlando but I'm sure you're dining out in Miami.

35:54What's that like currently? I'd love to get your take of what excites you in Miami.

36:00Norman Van Aken:With few exceptions, I do not go out to dinner in Miami about the places that are written about because to me, they have nothing to do with Miami other than they want to make a lot of money and they think it's going to be easier in Miami than it was in New York. They don't talk about, They don't connect with Florida to me. They're steakhouses or they're steakhouses in disguise. There are some great chefs here that are fighting the good fight. Michael Beltran, Michael Parolo, Brad Kilgore. But it's really hard in this day and age. I really feel a lot of empathy for the people who are 30, 40 years old and are trying to exist in this financial climate because the rents have just gotten astronomical.

36:49Norman Van Aken:It's hard, hard, hard. I mean, of course, COVID disrupted everything, everywhere. So it's a challenge. But some people are still trying to do real food. And I go to those places and I go to the places that never would be in magazines and are very rarely would they be in magazines. They're the kind of places that are the mom and pop joints that during Nicaraguan food or Indian food, you name it. You can go in there and have a great meal for 16, 17 bucks. Yeah. I mean, is that what your typical restaurant diet is like in in South Florida? These smaller, smaller mom and pops? Yeah, I mean, 98 percent.

37:31Norman Van Aken:But if somebody does something, I mean, I might do an event with another restaurant. Like I just did a pop-up with a young chef, and that was fun. And he's doing really good food at the tambourine room, young, young chef. But I cook at home all the time. I still love – I bounce back and forth between doing work on the computer, communicating with whatever, different things that I'm into, my nonprofits, as well as the restaurant. of course, but then I'm always working in a circle around what are we going to have for lunch? Of course. We're two of a kind in that way. Let's talk about your restaurant in Orlando.

38:11I mean, in 2024, it was named the best restaurant in Orlando. And I feel like that's got to be a really great moment for you, for a longstanding chef to get that recognition for a very, I'd say like underrated restaurant city. I've heard great things about Orlando as a restaurant destination.

38:30Norman Van Aken:Yeah, Orlando's got a lot of opportunity. They were very surprised when they first learned we were going to open up in Orlando, but the Ritz-Carlton came calling and made us a really nice space. And we were one of the first places that were not chain restaurant. But because of the financial wherewithal of Orlando, you do see this budding sort of entrepreneurial sort of opportunity that's coming along and young chefs are doing more their, you know, bistro price pointed places. And I think that's fantastic. That's what makes every city, you know, Paris, you can go to the most little hole in the wall village place and go, wow, that Gaukevin was amazing.

39:16How often are you up there in Orlando working at the restaurant? Are you there like quite a bit?

39:21Norman Van Aken:Every month, unless there's other circumstances, but it's not set. I usually time it around some, you know, event or something like that. We just, we did two huge events this year. We did the, uh, we did a James Beard fundraiser that I brought in like eight different chefs from Orlando. And then we did the Jacques Pepin gala, the 90 at 90, one that also brought in, um, another 10 chefs. Uh, and so that was a lot, um, a lot of great, you know, getting together, celebrating the life of Beard and then celebrating the life of Jacques Pepin. Actually, I'm going to be doing some new things with the Jacques Pepin Foundation soon that I'll be able to talk about.

40:04Really, really cool. I love that you have philanthropy in mind and really staying connected with the restaurant scene. How do you stay in touch with younger rising talent? You said you just did a pop-up with a young chef. How do you stay up to date?

40:17Norman Van Aken:I think by being relentlessly naturally curious is how any artist stays up to date and that was that's what always drew me to life itself was finding a metier that was going to allow that curiosity to always be a part of breathing you know people sometimes say don't you want to retire and I'm like retire from what retiring from the thing I want to do no so you know I if you if you're at all sentient you're going to read about what's going on and hear from people. And a lot of the people who are, let's say, major players in the business in Miami and Orlando used to work for me as life cooks. So the family tree is good and thriving.

41:06Norman Van Aken:Yeah. Well, let's go back in time and tell me about hiring a young college grad named Charlie Trotter. This would be Charlie Trotter's first kitchen job. And you two remained friends until his death in 2013.

41:24Norman Van Aken:Charlie came to me. Janet and I had our son in 1980 and she got homesick. We were from the same town. So we went up to Illinois and I got hired because Gordon Sinclair hired me. A lot of people say because my astrology chart worked out for him. But anyway, I got hired as the chef de cuisine. We'd been open maybe a couple weeks. And the busboy asked me for a minute, and I said, what's up? And he said, I want to work in the kitchen. And I said, what? Whoa, where have you worked before? And he goes, well, I have never worked in the kitchen. He wasn't Charlie at that point. He was known as Chuck. And I said, well, Chuck, we don't have any openings right now.

42:15Norman Van Aken:And we came back like the next day and the next day and the next day. And my sous chef at the time, Carrie Nahabidian, who's a great chef, said, hey, you know, the salad department's down one. Somebody quit. Let's put him over there. I said, OK, but he's your project. And so we hired him. And it was, you know, I mean, it was, of course, it was not evident of what was going to happen in the course of a few years. But he put his head down and got to work. And I remember him cutting himself and burning himself so often that I was, I pretended to be mad at him because he was using up all the bandages.

42:53Norman Van Aken:But he came to work. He went out to California to go to school, did it for a little bit, but then he got hired away. Well, no, he didn't quit school because it was too slow for him. He worked for Brad Ogden for a minute. And then he heard, I had returned to Florida to open up another restaurant for the same people. They wanted help down there. And Janet was so sick of winter after two winters again. So we returned to Florida, and he called me up and said, you need any help down there? And I said, yeah. So he drove across the country. And it's a longer story than we probably would have time for, but it's a fun story that's in the memoir.

43:35Norman Van Aken:And so he worked with me there, and then he worked with me in Key West too before he opened up. what are you actually talking about? are you guys riffing on New American Cuisine this kind of burgeoning farmers driven style of cooking that he would really latch on to? were you talking about the business side? oh no we didn't talk about the business side his father was a business genius and that wouldn't we talked about literature as much as we talked about cooking we talked about films he was all into everything and remained I mean, he read as much or more than anybody I ever met in the business.

44:13So we would talk about, you know, in this, while we were talking about a dish that Paula

44:17Norman Van Aken:Walford had in her book, The Cooking of Southwest France, we would talk about Henry Miller and Tropic of Cancer or something like that. We would, it was this, that's what brought us together was this, this, this connection through all of that literature, music, huge music all the time, all those conversations. he wrote me more than anybody I'd ever known before. I am putting together what may become a book about all of that because I have so many postcards, letters, menus, photos, and times that we spent in almost 30 years of being alive together. Yeah. The erudite chef and bibliophile is quite a style and a genre.

45:03I mean, you talked about Bourdain early. he certainly fell into that as well. And I think there's a lot of you in the industry, you know, who always have a book by their side and always are wanting to talk about, nerd out about regional cooking, but also talk about music as passionately. And it's just like, it's this intensity that you all have, like this industry. You guys like don't have like a break sometimes.

45:32Norman Van Aken:sometimes not want not really wanting that break from that anyway sometimes we want to break from the monotony of you know business and just get to that art how do we get to that art how do we get to the plate how do we get to the flavor how do we get to the essence of it well i want to continue this i'm gonna i'm gonna pick up your memoir and get a little more background and we're gonna go through your story even more when you come back on cast iron has been a staple in kitchens for generations and smithy is bringing that tradition into the modern kitchen. They craft vintage-inspired cast iron that, unlike the rough and bumpy cookware you may be used to, is polished smooth for a naturally nonstick cooking surface that only gets better with time.

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48:25Did you know Sam's Club isn't a store? It's actually a club with cool finds and like a whole community. It's a club. Of course, Jason. It's in the name. Sam's Club. Oh, yeah. Come join us. Sam's Club. On This Is Taste, we ask guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid-fire Fast and Furious taste check. Are you ready? I'm ready.

48:48Norman Van Aken:The best fruit. Well, if I have to be limited to one, I'd say watermelons. Mark Twain said something like, when one has tasted watermelon, he knows what the angels eat. Wow. He had some good watermelons, I'm sure, that gentleman. I feel like in South Florida, you probably have a very nice watermelon. there's so many beautiful fruits there you know tropical fruits that are here yeah a big part of our repertoire the worst vegetable

49:20Norman Van Aken:i i don't have any vegetables i hate but when i was a kid i hated lima beans i don't hate them anymore yeah i mean the canned version i'm sure what is your typical breakfast a bowl of cafe con leche some freshly pressed orange juice from the old-fashioned crank that i've got um a fat slice of toasted sourdough from one of two local bakeries that i love here slathered with a great amount of butter and drizzled with some hot hot honey oh nice you and hot honey. I love that. The best dessert?

50:08A classic flan

50:11Norman Van Aken:with a side of a Cuban cortadito. Sitting in the sunlit cafe is a simple dessert that I always love. A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead? Oh, easy. If I'm allowed to, they're both in New York. Chanterelle by David and Karen Waltock and Prune by Gabrielle Hamilton. Yeah, I love those two choices. Really, really, really special restaurants and really great alumni from those restaurants. When you're craving fast food, where are you going? Well, kind of circling back to what we talked about before in Miami and Key West too and in other parts. Florida primarily, there's walk-ups called ventanitas, essentially a window that's cut into what is often a full restaurant, but you walk up to it from the sidewalk.

51:08Norman Van Aken:And sometimes ventanitas are also in gas stations or laundromats, and they are fast, they're inexpensive and convivial. And the Caribbean snacks and other fare that would be there would be my take on what I would go for fast food. I never get a craving for anything like a McDonald's or anything like that. I meant to be snobbish. I just... No, it's your truth. There's so many alternatives that are just as cheap and are so much more interesting. It's your truth, man. A couple more. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food? I haven't been to as many as I'd like, so sorry for those I'm not mentioning, but Barcelona comes to mind most quickly.

51:48Norman Van Aken:Very cool. Last one, your favorite sandwich. Okay, a BLT. You have to be in season, tomatoes. I love the cristal bread that you get when you get a proper tomato bread in a Spanish restaurant. So I like that grilled cristal bread. And then mayonnaise that's been laced with some finely diced tinned fish, whichever one I'm liking at the time. And then some pickled chilies worked into that mayonnaise too. So that's my BLT. I love that combination. What's the bacon looking like? growing up in the midwest we had new skis bacon yeah yeah of course yeah it's a really good bacon i love benton's but i like it a little less smoky for the sandwich for the sandwich it overpowers it totally good call normally then he can thank you so much for joining this taste well thank you for having me on matt i appreciate it and uh look forward to doing this in person.

52:43Norman Van Aken:Yeah, definitely.

52:48My name is Matt Rodbarg. We're recording this live for This Is Taste, our podcast. These collaborations have been amazing. Great, you know, diverse points of view here in terms of Jewish food. Nikki, I'll start with you. I want to hear about, like, when you woke up this morning and you were like, I'm going to meet some people. I'm going to try some food. What were you most excited about? I mean, I was just excited to see friends collab with friends and honestly i've just been working so at our booth so much i haven't tried too much yet but what i just had was not at a booth but behind backstage the fabulous women at uh dacha 46 yeah this kapusta prudishki it's like so delicious so delicious so they taught everyone how to make it i yeah great demo eat tomorrow how about yourself when you when you saw the lineup Really tough question because the daikon cake sounded amazing and I love what you do and Sailor, of course.

53:45But a friend of ours from Australia told us about the Caribbean bagel. I don't know how they heard about it, but they said, this is what you're checking off the list. So I will check all of it off the list. Yeah, it's a great one. Yourself, Mike? So I, the only thing that I've gotten to eat just because I got here before everybody else was the Bread's Hamburger America mashup. And that was like unbelievably good. But if you look around, I mean, the collabs on the entire island are like unbelievable. And don't you, I mean, we do this stuff all the time. I don't think that there's one kiosk or tent that doesn't look incredible.

54:28like so no skips no skips no and i think we should give an extra big shout out to nama chefie yeah for absolutely agree i mean i like whenever nama asks me to do anything i just say yes chef and just kind of put my head down and do it but this morning i got on the island and i was like i cannot believe how incredible this is and like the talent and the friends and the community it It is like so amazing to be here. And Nama created this. So it's really amazing. Nama, Jewish Food Society, Mitchell, Amanda, everybody there. Okay. I want to go back to Nikki and talk about non-Jewish customers coming to Rustin Daughters.

55:11And for each of you, your own restaurants. What's it like when you are representing your Jewishness through your food to non-Jews? people who maybe have that one opinion about Jews and Judaism, and they have a lox or some babka, and maybe things change, maybe they don't. What's it like representing Jewish identity through your restaurant? I mean, it's an honor. And the whole world comes to Russ and Daughters every day. So you have people for whom literally this was the food served at their bris, or they're, you know, a family member of Shiva. And then you have people who are visiting and they just heard that when you're in New York, you're supposed to go eat at Russ and Daughters.

56:02And I love it because it's just really in the act of people being in our space, you know, and whether they're aware of the fact that it's 112 years old, that this is, you know, iconic New York Jewish food or not, they're taking it in, literally. Some days, for example, during the era of Yom Kippur, the day before Yom Kippur is one of the busiest days at Russ and Daughters. And so Jews come because they're gearing up to get all their breakfast. They're rushing. But they're ready to wait hours, you know, because people are buying a pound of Nova and, you know, two pounds of whitefish salad and, you know, three herrings, whatever it is.

56:45and I love when you know you you know you take a number at Russ and Daughters you wait your turn and I love it when a non-Jewish person usually someone visiting it's finally their turn and they've waited an hour and a half or more and they order one bagel and lox and I feel in a way so sad for them but also so impressed and they're like happy to be there they're like wow this is an amazing experience only in New York could I have this they don't sometimes they don't even know what they walked into Yom Kippur what is that it's just such a New York moment to have all these people together enjoying our food correct that order so like if if it's more than lox and bagels, what's like the perfect order then for the person who's waited an hour and a half?

57:38Oh, if I could like, yeah, yeah. Correct it. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, uh, well, I definitely add pickled herring. Herring is how my great grandfather started Russ and daughter as a street peddler over a century ago. And it's so delicious. Um, I would, uh, give them, um, a side of, whitefish salad and a slice of Bob. or black and white. Love that order. All the food groups. Itamar, non-Jews come to your two honeys. How do you feel interacting with them, representing your Jewishness, and maybe answering questions they may have about Judaism, about Jewish food culture? Well, you know, I think I was talking to Mike before.

58:20We always, you know, like, again, London is a global city, much like New York. We have sort of really diverse population. And we, the food that we serve, or we try to sort of serve really traditional home food, not just from Israel, but from the region, like the diasporic food and Palestinian food and from our travels. And we used to get a huge clientele from the Gulf coming and really suddenly tasting the food that they knew from home with the values that they knew from home, the value of generosity, freshness, And suddenly you connect over that and we've formed some really beautiful, meaningful friendships.

59:08So that's one population. I think, you know, sadly coming less and less. With the local British population, we're still trying to convince them that salad is a breakfast dish. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Like we started when we started, we do like the breakfast, we'll do shakshuka and all the things, chopped salad on the side. And we'll get like clean plates coming back. Salad untouched. Untouched. Really? Even in this protein era, like a salad and protein wouldn't... Before noon, an uncooked vegetable? No. No. So we're like, okay, we're not chopping the salad anymore. Just like slices of tomatoes.

59:49We marinate them delicious. Untouched. So this is kind of like a conversation that we have that on one hand, you're like, this is the food, this is what we are. And of course, Israelis, we are always wanting to eat salad to meeting people where they are. And like, no, I'm not throwing more tomatoes to the bin. These are good tomatoes. I pay a lot of money for them. So some battles we fight, some battles we don't. But the conversation is always ongoing and always interesting and nourishing. Mike, yourself. I'll sort of echo with everybody else. Like the experience of eating food is so visceral and, you know, to sort of connect with people, even though that sounds cliched, even though we're not going to break bread and there's not going to be peace by that.

1:00:38It is really amazing the way that it sort of touches everybody. I want to move this along and talk about Jewish food and the trajectory, because I think this day really represents how, you know, Jewish food is not Ashkenazi food per se. And, you know, babka has had its moment. Hummus has had its moment. When I say moment, food media, where I work, you know, we've had these moments. Wonderful foods, but there's more to the story. We'll start with Itamar, go to Mike and back to Nikki. where do you see Jewish food going in the next decade Itamar? Wow really interesting I do think that sort of and this really it pains me to say and it's crazy because you know I'm Sephardi don't look it and you know I have an Ashkenazi grandma and we would sort of no we would never want to eat there but i think ashkenazi food is is a space it's a vibe yeah and you know we start so low there's always room for you're being so polite my friend sorry i'm like but we we do we had like ashkenazi grandma and we would like we weren't as kids we'd be like in terror going there for dinner because we're like the vegetables the vegetables the boiled vegetables but they've been they've been killed yeah no but but i think this is can only go up yeah in the best way possible your food is amazing you're amazing i i worship your face i mean even there's a lot of not good jewish food out there you know of course yes and And yet you can also make it really good.

1:02:25Yeah. Mike, you wanted to jump in. Even though I cook mostly Sephardic food or Mizrahi, I have to say I want to represent, I want to give a shout out to Ashkenazi food. I think that representation of Ashkenazi food was just not wonderful because most people that cooked it in North America were fleeing pogroms. They came from a different place where you could forage mushrooms, pick berries, cook goose, and they came to cities where they really had nothing and they were like, we've got to boil some chicken with no salt. So I don't think, I think that back in Hungary, Poland, Russia, Ashkenazi food was so different.

1:03:03Even if you go now to Budapest, if you ask somebody in the street, and listen, Hungary's relationship with Jews is complicated, right? If you ask a non-Jew in Budapest where this one restaurant is, they'll be like, oh, that's a Jewish restaurant and it's goose, it's goose fat, it's foie gras. It's like, it's like cool stuff. All right, on This is Taste, we ask guests about their discerning tastes. So to close this session, this interview, here's a little Fast and Furious rapid fire taste check. Jewish foods edition. I'll start with you, Nikki. Last thing you ate that made you feel like a Jewish food cliche, but loved it anyways.

1:03:44I was just in Chicago a few weekends ago because our cookbook was nominated for a James Beard Award. Shout out. It's such a good book. And I went to visit a very Chicago family, and they served Manny's. Manny's is like this classic Jewish deli where Obama went there to order and get his picture taken. It's that kind of place. And I have to say, part of me, when I heard that we were going to eat Manny's, I thought, really? I'm in Chicago? For just two days, I'd love to have something not different from my world. Once we were sitting there and I'm trying their matzo ball soup and their latkes, it was so perfect to see how these foods are loved and these places are loved in cities and places around the country.

1:04:43Yourself eat tomorrow. Well, again, I'm so sorry, but I'm such a cliche, but whenever I land in New York, the first thing I get is Russian doctors. Oh, yeah. So I've been brought to my room very kindly by my wife and friend, smoked salmon bagel and a herring bun. It was beautiful. And I unapologetically love it. I can be a cliche 24-7. Oh, it's beautiful. Yourself, Mike? I mean, I feel like I just got a copy of your book. And I was eating, like, take out Chinese while, like, on my counter. That's how chefs eat, right? Over the sink or whatever. But I was flipping through the book. And I got something that had, like, a ton of treif on your book.

1:05:23And I was like, this is like Christmas Eve right now. Yeah. The Chinese Jewish delegation. Honestly, it's the best tradition. A Jewish food that is criminally underrated. Stick with you, Mike I feel like I'm going to be I don't know I'm scared Because of I've heard all the opinions Yeah, we have opinions How many Are there 100 people here? Yeah, we got 300 opinions about Like what I'm about to say Underrated Jewish Actually Pcha See what I mean? I heard shouts And I heard size I mean, somebody's going to stab me in the kidneys So pcha is actually Israel's national dish I don't know if you know that.

1:06:06And it is Cav's foot that is poached, is pulled apart. It is set in jelly with an egg and like a ton of like raw garlic. And the window between it being delicious and disgusting is this big. Yeah. But I feel like pia can be really, really good. The last place I had it was actually on the last food tour that I led in Israel. And we went through Meir Sharim and ate p 'cha and Meir Sharim. And there was so much gelatin, like natural jelly in it, that it actually didn't dissolve in my mouth. And I spit it out like an ice cube. You're selling it hard, Mike. And nobody ate after that, yeah. You're selling it hard, Mike.

1:06:57Yeah, I know. What do you guys think? Yeah, so I say pachah. Itamar, yourself. Wow, how do I follow that? How do I follow that? It's in Pepto-Bismol. Completely. Again, I'm going to get sort of driven off the island with pitchforks, but am I that crazy about Ashkenazi chicken soup? No. That's okay. Yeah, Itamar, get the fuck out of here. That's the overrated. You took the overrated on that one. We had like Yemeni soup. Yemeni soup is unbelievable. that my grandmother used to make, and we would come, and you'd have the chicken claws coming out of the pan, the most amazing smell. And then if I put that next to Ashkenazi chicken soup, I'm like...

1:07:38All right. We get the point. Sorry, guys. It's okay. I love you. Don't hate me. Okay, yourself. Criminally underrated. I am the evangelist, the Jewish evangelist for herring. I think herring is underrated. Yeah. Right? It really is. You're right. And herring is not only so delicious, It's one of the healthiest things you can eat. You don't need to take an omega-3 pill. Just eat a herring. But it's one of these foods that transports us and connects us back to our ancestors. And if, but there's also a lot of, if you've only had the jarred herring, you know, from the supermarket, I don't, you know, judge you for not liking it.

1:08:21But I challenge you right now, this is the moment to be eating herring because we, there's a, We import a seasonal herring called the new catch shawl and herring. And if you like, don't think about it like herring. If you like sushi or sashimi, this herring is like butter in your mouth. And that's what it's in our head. And you can have it just straight. So delicious. Or we may put it in one of our challah buns with cornichons and Vidalia onion. And it is actually spectacular. Such a great pairing. Oh, my God. That's so incredible to hear that. Last question. I'll start with you, Mike. Lox or pastrami?

1:09:00Lox or pastrami? Remember who you're on stage with, Mike. Lox or pastrami? I don't, I... Pastrami, I mean pastrami, but only by a little bit. Only by a hair, okay. Itamar? Lox every single time. Lox every single time. Every single time. I mean, is there a question, like, for me? Yeah. Lox is literally, like, in my... It's in your blood. Where do you like pastrami in the city? Loaded question. I'll follow up with them. Listen, it's not a coincidence that on East Houston Street on the Lower East Side, you have Russ and Daughters, and then just down the block you have Katz's because we are like sister food businesses representing, I think, the paradigm of delicatessen and appetizing.

1:09:45So that's the perfect combo. Do you guys do like a sit-down, like a family sit-down, like the the cats crew and you guys and do like uh like talk some strategy uh you know uh jake dell and my cousin josh and i were we're all kind of the same generation yeah it's not we don't have sit-downs but we'll text each other or bail each other out when we need help with something um so it's very friendly in that way and it's nice to be able to get into cats without waiting well you guys have all been a great audience thank you so much before we close just remind everybody i'll go down and start with you, Nikki, where you're at and what you're serving right now, where everybody can go out.

1:10:25So, we have a delicious collab with Bonnie's. It's a daikon radish cake with pastrami cured salmon, sesame seeds, creme fraiche pastrami cured salmon, and salmon roe. Beautiful. Itamar, yourself. We're collaborating with the amazing Ops Pizza, amazing Ops Pizza, and they're doing, yes, yes, yes, yes. Thank you. And they're doing two recipes from our cookbook. One is for a pizza top with potatoes, smoked cheese, little thyme oil. Potato pizza. Thank you so much. It's a good one. Potato pizza. Underrated. And the other one is tomatoes, olives, capers. Delicious, delicious, delicious. We've had lots of lovely people coming to us, and we feel very honored and humbled to come here to New York and cook pizza.

1:11:18And you just released your cookbook, too. Yes. So your cookbook is out. My cookbook is out. Our cookbook is out. My wife is catching around somewhere. I don't know where she is. She's making pizza. Honey and Co. Daily. Get it. Christmas is coming. You have nephews. Christmas is coming. You have nieces. And the Russ and Daughters cookbook, too, is just incredible. I sat down and read the whole thing in one evening. It's so readable, so amazing. Mike, closing, remind us where you're at today. Oh, yeah. We're doing potato boricas with a veg curry from Sailor. Thank you all again. Enjoy the rest of the great nosh.

1:11:56I'm Matt from This Is Taste. You can check it out on the podcast. Thanks, guys.

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