809: Claire Saffitz’s Summer Baking and Next Book Plot Twist

22:29Matt Rodbard:You too.

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23:18Visit smithey.com, that's smithey.com, to explore their collection of American-made cast iron and carbon steel cookware. Every piece is made without chemical coatings and crafted to become an heirloom in your home. Again, use the code THISISTASTE for free U.S. shipping on your order at smithy.com. Thank you, everybody, for coming. Claire, this is going to be a lot of fun. I'm so excited. I'm really excited. So we're taping this live for This Is Taste, a podcast I co-host with Eliza Barbanel. Check it out. So how many of you have made a Claire recipe in the last month? Raise your hand. well geez it's pretty good okay uh youtube youtube oh wow look at that and then cookbook okay so we've got for the audience at home we've got about i think it's like 50 50 split is that do you find that's the case with with your audience 50 50 like youtube engaged in some way yeah it fit like youtube 50 and then cookbook 50 oh uh yeah that's an interesting i mean something I haven't thought about in a while because I haven't had a book come out in a while.

24:26We'll get to the plans for the future book. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, a lot of it is sort of age-based. It's like obviously younger bakers tend to engage more with YouTube and more like millennials like me and older tends to be book. But I love when it's both because to me they're really different. And even though it's all baking, you kind of go to them for different things, I think. Absolutely. um well i have to ask before we we talk about your career a little bit we'll talk about the production of your your youtube show because i think some behind the scenes is needed um and also we'll be taking questions at the end so think about your questions for claire when you're in the city you know you're the hudson valley you're in the city where have you been going out and like bakery wise what are you what are you doing right now so this question embarrassing to me always because I am I'm in this city for like doctor's appointments yeah and then I'm like in midtown trying to figure out like where can I go to get a cup of coffee so I'm not like I'm not dedicating a lot of time here to eating I wish I was um and so like I feel very behind like a lot of times when people ask me where should I go to eat I'm like can you tell me where to eat like I don't really know um I've had so I'm kind of going back like over the last couple months because I'm not really here that much and I am full-time in the Hudson Valley and now my husband and I, we have a toddler.

25:45So it's like, I was writing an email earlier and I was like about the idea of like being pulled away from home life for anything work. I was like, I don't, I think I would have to think twice about missing bedtime. Like even if I was invited to Taylor Swift's wedding or something, like it has to be a lot for me to, to miss that. So, but the few times I've been out to eat in the city, not really for bakery exploration, but there was a notable dinner in, was it late May or June, at a favorite restaurant of my husband and mine that I haven't been to in a long time, which is Tempura Matsui. Yes. Like a fine dining Tempura restaurant.

26:22Yeah. So good. And we had been several times pre-pandemic and maybe not since. And it was like going home again in a way. The maitre d' is like the most charming man. It's a tiny restaurant. there was like almost never anyone there when when we're there um and it is it doesn't quite have that like dining in a temple feeling where you don't want to like have fun and you feel like overly reserved but it's very peaceful and calm and just so amazing and yeah that was great it's it's kind of like it's like an omakase style for tempura and i feel there's a deep connection between pastry and what they're doing at at tempura maturi i feel that's it's totally your shit.

27:05Yes. It's so technical and so precise. And we sat at the bar where you can watch the chef, you know, doing all the tempura and like, it's so precise about the texture of the batter and the oil. And it's like, you're sitting right there and you don't smell a single thing. And they put the tempura on a little piece of paper on the bar and there's like no oil on it. It's so I love that place. And like, you've never eaten so much fried food and felt so amazing after the meal. It's that's one of my favorites. Uh, so that was really great to go back to that restaurant. We had done Le Vaudour a while ago by total chance, like happenstance.

27:39We did not have a reservation, but we had our, our baby. We were here in the city and put him to bed. And we had a friend, my husband had a friend over and he was like, do you guys want to go out? Like I'll hang out here while your baby is asleep. Truly the greatest gesture of friendship when you do something like, like spontaneous like that. Yes. I was like, I know he won't wake up. And so we called and they were like, we, we just two minutes ago had a cancellation. Can you be here in 15 minutes and we were like okay so that was amazing that was great i felt like for once i could actually not for once but for once in a very long time i'm like at a restaurant that while people are talking about it which is fun bakeries i have you know this there's a funny phenomenon where i don't eat a lot of pastries that i'm not making because it's like i can't eat that many pastries yeah i'm cooking i'm baking a lot yeah and so it's sort of a weird thing there's a lot i would love to try i haven't even i've not been to radio i've not wait stop really i've not you've not been a radio?

28:32No. I know. This is sort of shameful. No shame. I'm like, tell me your recommendations. I really need some time, like dedicated time to explore, but you know, it's like I'm staying pretty active on social media, paying attention to what's happening. I see the scene exploding and becoming incredible. I'm just like a little out of it. Yeah. Well, we have to shout out Margo's in Goshen, New York. Oh, yeah. Cafe Margo. We're legit friends. We see each other in the Hudson Valley. We hang out. Yeah, we hang. So we have to shut out our place. Okay, so let's go back a little bit to St. Louis. You're in high school.

29:09And we've talked about this before. And I don't think publicly or on the pod. What is it about baking and pastry that, like, keeps you home over the weekends from doing social stuff? And, like, you know, I love it. It's like you're, like, starting to hone your craft. and you're just thinking about baking at a time when, I don't know, Instagram was not around and baking was not pop culture the way to say thanks much to you and others. So what is it about baking in that early part of your life and really what are some of these recipes that are getting you super geeked out about this? Yeah, it was a good point that when I was getting into baking, it was not particularly popular.

29:52I guess in the popular consciousness in that sense. There was no social media. There was no the cookie or there was no like memes about boss cheesecake. You know, it wasn't happening. Right. No YouTube. I'm like thinking that far back. I'm like, no, that was before YouTube, which is crazy. So growing up, I had a very close friend who was chronically ill. And so we did not, not that we were cool enough to like go out, whatever that means in high school, but like we were, we stayed home a lot. So we came up with activities that we could do at home. and one of those activities was watching like the entire canon of classic horror movies yeah so i'm like very well versed in that yeah um and then the other thing was baking and i think it spoke to me at that age because i really i always loved crafts my sister made fun of me recently because we were talking about our lives like at sleepaway summer camp and she was doing like super outdoorsy activities and she was like you were at arts and crafts i was like yeah i liked i liked it and i was always doing art classes when i was a kid so the part of baking that appealed to me at that age was like the crafting portion, like putting it together, the construction, the decorating.

30:57I was not in it from like a culinary point of view. It was like boxed mixes, making like elaborate layer cakes that like the baking was kind of beside the point. But they looked really nice. They looked good. They looked good. And my mom would be like, how much money did you spend at the grocery store? I remember one, and also my mom always had a copy of Martha Stewart Living Around, which was very influential for me when I was a kid and tons of cookbooks. We were talking about Martha earlier. Like I'm a major Martha fan going back a long time. So I was always looking at those pages and admiring the way it looked.

31:27She had a Martha Stewart pies and tarts book. There's several, but this was like a classic one from the nineties, I guess. And everything was so decorated. And I got really into like making pastry leaves, like little, you know, decorated leaves around the border of a pie, that kind of thing. So I loved making things look really beautiful and the taste was not really the point. But then of course I got much more into that later on. So when you started thinking about a career and going to college, do you like put the baking on the back burner, go to college? Yes. That truly is it. So when you're in college, are you, are you returning to the arts and crafts kind of ethic, thinking more about flavored eating in Boston at bakeries or what?

32:07College was like, I was always really into school. I was like, I'm really good at school. I thrive in school. I love learning. I love being a student. I'm super type A. Like I'm, I'm, I'm like achieving. I was like, I'm just going to do this. I'm just going to do school forever. Like I'll be an academic. That's right. Um, and so that was really the plan. I did not go to college with any kind of, um, any thought in my mind about pursuing a culinary career. No one talked about it. It was really like, I was saying the story earlier to this, to my sister and I was talking to, like she was asking me about my first job and did I always want to do that?

32:44And I was like, I didn't even really think about a thing called food media until I was out of college. I just wasn't, of course I knew that there were magazines, but I never thought about what that meant. The people who made them did not matter. The work behind it. You weren't like thinking about Susan Spungin. It wasn't like on your... I wish I was. Shouts to Susan Spungin, by the way. I just wanted to, all those Martha stories, I was like, we got to give Susan some credit for that. Yeah, totally. Susan Spungin is like, she's an amazing, she's a cookbook author, amazing food stylist. I met her through working at Bon Appetit.

33:12Every year she food styled the cookie story. So we became friends that way. And she's incredible. But I didn't know that that was a career. So I had no inkling around that at all. And so it was really, once I graduated from college, it was 2009. So it was like, right, following the 2008 financial crisis, it was really hard to find a job. I had majored in the humanities. Everyone was like, what are you going to do with that? I was like, I don't know. So I was looking for a job. and that's when I got back into cooking. And I had grown up as like a part of the kind of like food network generation, like watching a lot of food shows, like Emeril, you know, all the classics.

33:54And was just, and just sort of became sensitized to that. And then I thought like, how can I do this as a career? And I kind of, it took me a little while to figure it out. I went to culinary school. I figured out at that point that I definitely did not want to work in a restaurant because I just could not stand a lifestyle of rushing all the time. I just do not want to have that frenetic pace. And we see that time and again on the YouTube channel because the energy, I mean, how many of you just watch Claire just to like not think about the crazy shit in the world? Like a lot of us, including myself.

34:30And it's interesting that it comes from that. I don't want to be at a restaurant rushing. Yeah. And it's amazing. And it's part of the culture. Like my husband's a chef. And so I like kind of witnessed a lot of like the restaurant culture that goes on. And it's like it doesn't really matter how much work you have to do or how much time you have. You have to move fast no matter what. And I did not want to live like that. And it's just not – it doesn't work with like my constitution. So but I – and so then I sort of – and then I was like, well, maybe I'll like go back to the academia thing. But I can write about food.

35:01And then I felt like I missed being in the kitchen. And so food media threaded this perfect needle of like you can cook and you can write, but you don't have to work in a restaurant and you can write for a popular audience. And that was perfect. And the rest is history. We know the story of what happened at BA and truly your career with cookbooks and now on YouTube and all the work you do. I want to dig into a couple specific recent YouTube recipes and get a little behind the scenes because I think it's cool the way you do it knowing what I know. But let's tell them. Boss Cheesecake. So you take on Bosque cheesecake, which there are a lot of Bosque cheesecake recipes.

35:39And you have a twist with lemon. So when you're thinking about ideation and like how you're, I know you just put a strawberry cake just up today. Like when you're thinking about your board of recipes, what's the ideation process like? And why Bosque cheesecake? No criticism, by the way. No, it's a good question. So that recipe I did in collaboration with NYT Cooking. Right, right. So we had this thing where, because I've done recipes for them a lot in the past, and I went into their studio and did videos for the recipes. But we tried this thing where they were like, why don't you do a recipe on your YouTube?

36:15And they kind of host the official recipe on their site as part of my collection of recipes with no paywall. The idea is to kind of like capture like people going to both places. That's a real content strategy. Yeah, right? Yeah. Well, it's been working really well, so that's nice. And they were the ones, I spoke to Emily Fleishigur, who I've known for a long time, who heads up their video strategy. I don't even really know what her job description is because I've known her for so long, I never even really thought about it. But she was like, hey, what do you think about a fast cheesecake? And I liked the idea instantly because I hadn't tackled it.

36:49And so I'm kind of at this point in my career where it's like if there is something I haven't done yet, I've done a lot. And so if there's something I haven't done, I'm like, oh, this is a great, like, let's try it. so I did heavy heavy research on it also people I made the mistake of reading the comments on the on the recipe on NYT cooking so such a mistake people were really upset people like hate the lemon like throwing in citrus is like the you know the the folks at San Sebastian are gonna come get you yeah right it was some terrible sin I'm like guys it's just like some lemon zest yeah everyone chill and you know I think that is a recipe where like the history is super interesting because people think, oh, it's called Bass Cheesecake.

37:27It must be 100 years old. It's really not. It's from like the 90s. Yeah, we were just in Lavinia in San Sebastian. Did you try it? Yeah, we tried it. Clayton and I, we did an episode at This Is Taste with it. And thumbs down. No way. Absolute thumbs down. Not a fan. Tell me more. It's just, it's one of those dishes that needs acid and they don't serve any fruit with egg. It's at the source, Lavinia. They've been doing it since the 90s and they have a great hustle there. I mean, it looks amazing. but truly it's one of those recipes yeah again like it doesn't have depth to it at all was it very medium rare like gooey in the middle of course and it's it's like the way you want your cheese but you don't want your pastry that way interesting okay so this is where i felt like i had something to contribute creating a recipe for something that has you know been iterated on so endlessly with that idea of cooking it so hot and so fast and being so opposite in cooking method from a New York style cheesecake.

38:22That was really interesting to me. And so it's like, how can you achieve something really, really, really dark and burnished and that has that kind of like medium rare center? Because a lot of the recipes I saw don't address that really. They're just kind of like cook it until it's dark. And for me at that point, it was overcooked. Absolutely. You have to have that final 60 seconds. Right, right. So in my recipe, you broil it. Broil it, exactly. Because it's like most home ovens, like I'm sure that the ovens at LaVinia, the whole point of the development of that recipe is that the ovens run super hot.

38:52Exactly. And so it's like most home ovens don't run that hot. So how do you, you have to cook it until it's done. But at that point in most ovens, done and like you temp it, like you use a thermometer. Yeah, that's the cool part about that. And Nicola Lamb was like such an amazing, amazing pastry chef and developer. Had a really deep dive on bass cheesecake that was like really informative for me when I was researching. And that was where I was like, and I tried it a couple of times without temping it. And I was like, I think Nicola's right. Like, I think you really need to stick a thermometer in it.

39:19So I felt like that I had something to say about that recipe for the home cook. Like I'm not going to make a new version of it. It doesn't need that. But I have technique that I think will be really informative and instructive for people at home to achieve something really cool. So I was like, I can tackle this. I love it. So I'm hearing definitely a little bit of a twist, a little bit of a take, but also really quick learning for your audience, like technique. Yes. So like with certain recipes, that doesn't translate to YouTube. Right. So you have to think about that. Interesting. And whenever I'm developing a recipe, I'm always thinking about the video because it's always an opportunity to explain something I cannot articulate in the writing of the recipe.

39:57And if I were to put everything in the written recipe that I want to say about it, it would be so long. No one would, everyone would look at it and just be instantly turned off. It's like, who wants to read a thousand words about a cake, basically? Literally, that's everybody these days at the demise of media. Yeah, right. So I want to go behind the scenes. What you're willing to share about the production with Vinny and crew. Anything you want to know. Wild stuff. No secrets. So you show your kitchen. It's not like a huge test kitchen. It's not an apartment kitchen. But how do you – I know Vinny doesn't live in New York.

40:31And how do you – like you're basically – and I'll say just knowing Claire. Like you basically like make your house – you turn it upside down to make these productions. and take us through like a shoot day to shoot one or possibly one and a half recipes and what's like a production like for you? Yeah, so our average pace is two recipes a day, two episodes a day, one in the morning, one in the afternoon. And it does turn our lives upside down. I can't do more than a three-day shoot because it's too much chaos. Like I really respond to my surroundings and if it seems disordered, I like start to lose my mind.

41:04Do you snap sometimes? no I just like get exhausted yes okay you know good answer I figured like it would be I mean maybe a Harris would be like oh yeah you snap uh for sure I guess I just save it for him but um so they so I have so Vinnie so Vince Cross Vincent Cross um who I met over 10 years ago working at Bon Appetit he was in the video department and we became friends and you know then I left and I went and I started my first cook I worked on my first cookbook and I wanted to start YouTube in 2020 to coincide with the launch of dessert person. And I called him and he and his now wife were on their way in their car, with all their stuff packed up, moving from Williamsburg to Texas.

41:46So it was like terrible timing. I was like, do you want to work on this with me? And so, but he still said yes. And so he comes from Texas and his production partner is this great guy named Cal Robertson. And like, we're all such good friends now. And like now Harris is really good friends with them and like distracts them and like tries to hang out with them. Like we're here to work. We have to do two recipes today, Harris. Like, we're working. And he's, like, trying to hang out with them. And Cal lives in Connecticut. So, like, everyone converges on our house. And they – I actually think people might be surprised at the level of production because it is very – I mean, it's a little homespun, but it's, like, you know, we're in my environment and it's casual.

42:24But, like, we have lights and there's sound and there's equipment. There's cutaways. There's swaps. It's, like, a TV production. Right. There's some music in it. So like, and Vince, you know, Vince does top to bottom production. He is my producer and weighs in a lot in the creative. Like my, my basic feeling and approach to YouTube is like, I couldn't sustain it and do it longterm if I had to do anything other than just show up and cook. I just can't, I don't, I don't really care to like work on those other parts of it. And I don't think it's worth it for me to learn. So like Vince, God bless him.

42:54He touches the cannons. He does everything. He's the guy. Yes. Yeah. He's the one. Right. Like, do I know how to upload a video to my YouTube channel? I do not. And you know what? That's great. And respect to your team for doing that. Years ago, we did this. This was a one-off. It was really fun. But we did this video with Emma Chamberlain where we took the show on the road to LA, which we never do. But it was mostly because we had a big sponsor to do it. Yeah, yeah. And we were talking to her. And she was saying how she edits every video herself and has major burnout. And I was like, you do? I get it.

43:29It's her editing style is her thing. So it makes sense. But I was just like, I could not. No. I can't do it. We've been doing the YouTube channel now for almost six years. Like, it's been a while. And it's because I can just focus on the creative side. And Vince does what he's good at. Yeah. And also participates in the creative. So anyway, getting back to the point. Like, they bring all the equipment. We plan our lineup of recipes. We make our schedule. And that's well in advance. You have that lineup. Yeah, like, sometimes not so far in advance. Sometimes you're just, like, going out and. Yeah, I mean, right now.

43:59So the channel launched initially to promote the book, the Dessert Person. And so it was all recipes from Dessert Person. And then the second book came out, and we did recipes from What's for Dessert. And now we're kind of at the point where it's like we're just doing original recipes for YouTube. But to me, it's a different set of criteria, I think, for YouTube recipes versus stuff for the book. It's a different level of development. It's a moving target, too. The algorithm is always letting you down, maybe. Right. YouTube's crazy. Well, it's like maybe it is, but do I pay attention? It's a good thing I don't sort of pay attention.

44:35This is pure creator energy. Like be pure and don't think about the actual like, you know, monetization stuff. Yeah. I mean, I'm lucky. It's like we have really healthy subscribership. So it makes it like it's a luxury that I'm afforded to not have to like pay such close attention to it. But Vince is like in there like looking out at all the metrics and stuff. Speaking of which, I looked at the comments myself of your strawberry cake recipe that came out today. And somebody called you right at the top the anti-algo queen, which you had said in the episode. But she was like calling you like you're anti-algo.

45:08What did that mean exactly? I'm like, I don't remember saying that. Okay. Are you like one of the actors who doesn't watch your own movies? Sure. Like they shoot it and then you don't watch it? It's funny. Vince used to send me cuts to watch. You don't watch it. And approve. and I stopped doing it and he stopped sending them to me so I don't watch them. A lot of times my dad, who's like a super fan, will be like, oh, your video's out today. I was like, oh, it is? Like he tells me when stuff happens. This is amazing and the best. I just, I don't care. Yeah. But not, but I care about the work. I care about the work.

45:42Yeah, and you care about your 1.8 million people who are subscribing to you. Yeah, well, and I care, like I know Vince, I trust Vince. I know he's gonna do a great job. I'm like, I don't, I'm not gonna help this. I'm not gonna make it better. Like, just do it. What did that mean when you said anti-algo queen or anti-algo? I don't know. Yeah. Maybe if it was in the context of the recipe, I think I was probably just saying like, oh, I think, okay. I think I remember now. I think I was just saying like, I make what I want to make.

46:06Matt Rodbard:Yeah. I don't think, and this is a thing I think that is really important in food media is like, I have, I have a certain taste and that's what I want to think about and execute. I don't really want to think about what is the lowest comma denominator or like the average taste that I'm supposed to cater to because then you lose a point of view. Then why are people coming to you? I just want to do what I want to do because I find it interesting. So I can stay interested in what I'm doing. It's amazing that you're just not looking at like Google trends reports to see what's popping off on social.

46:44It's not going to tell me anything I don't already know. I think, you know? Yeah. Well, I want to talk about the recreates element of your life and Whoppers. I'm like, that's such a funny transition because I'm like, that is kind of telling, that is kind of giving people what they want. But in a way that I like. No, but I think it was something that you really codified while working at BA and it's a popular segment. And I think we all, like the science geeks in us and the ones who want to know how shit works, that's definitely your version of it. Right. The edible how stuff works. And the Whoppers challenge just jumped out to me.

47:17Because it's like the one I liked. I like Whoppers. It's the one you liked. That's it. How the hell do you think through these recreates? Because we know as fans of your YouTube, you're not phoning. This is like real investigative work. It's really cool. Yeah. Vince is always like, because the show follows a format. and there's like different sort of acts and like different beats that we hit and i'm always trying to get like right into the making and he's like hold on you gotta get the piece of paper out you gotta like measure it like you gotta show this whole part yeah i'm like can i just make it so um you know when i'm when i'm thinking about recreates and it's a conversation with like you know we have like our we have a it's fun we have a group chat called dessert people that's me and vince and cal and harris and like we're all talking about like what's the next recreate so what are we thinking and vince and cal are always like making suggestions and we take suggestions from commenters like we're always looking well we vince yeah is in the comments being like people are talking about this i wanted to do whoppers just because i like whoppers like i'm not like i'm not a snacker and i'm not really i don't really eat candy um yeah but but that is like a that is like my movie theater candy if i'm gonna pick one yeah whoppers like coke and whoppers what's the what's the beverage pairing oh you know what's interesting after 20 years this is a tangent of swearing off diet soda, I am so back on Coke Zero.

48:39Like it's a, I think it was, you know what it was? It was the fridge cigarette thing on social media. I was like, that is the most truest statement I've ever heard. Yeah, it's true. And now I can't, and now like the mini cans, like the mini can of Coke Zero is like my greatest pleasure. Do you have like a time in your head when it happens like a fridge cigarette? Like three, three or four. Like three, and it's zero not diet. Zero not diet, so important. I one time put Diet Coke on the grocery list and Harris brought home Diet Coke. And I was like, what is wrong with you? And he was like, it said Diet Coke.

49:11I was like, you know I mean Coke Zero. That's what that means. No, it has to be Coke Zero. Which, by the way, we did a Coca-Cola episode and I went in so cocky about it. And it really humbled me because it was impossible. It's impossible, right? Yeah, it's impossible. How much tamarind is in it? Oh, in my version, Zero. Okay, okay, okay. I didn't, like I should have put that in it. I don't know. That's been always my thought. I tasted it. That's a really good thought. It probably could have used it. My version was not good at all. But anyway, but Whoppers. So yes, Coke Zero and Whoppers at the movie theater.

49:43But I was like, I really like this thing. I can make it way better because the chocolate is not really chocolate. The chocolate is like a wax. Sub chocolate, yeah, wax. Like after eating, I have a box at the movie theater. Like it's coating your mouth. You can't taste anything. It's not good. So you know, anything that's chocolate based because it's being mass produced and it's being done as cheaply as possible. Number one is like, I can always make this better by using good chocolate. It's like the easiest, lowest lift change for any, any recreates. So, but I love malt. I love malted flavor so much.

50:13You see it throughout your books. I mean, it's, it's, it's, your book is filled with malt. Yeah. Malted milk powder is like the easiest supermarket thing and you can add it to so many recipes and it adds such a cool savory flavor. So I thought that would be great. And you know, the more recreates has really taught me the importance of texture. It's like, as I've really gotten into analyzing these popular foods and I try them. I'm like, it is in almost every single case, it's a texture thing, not a flavor thing. Cause the flavor is just sugar. The flavor is just mostly just sweet. You're kind of tricking your brain a little bit with that texture.

50:42You think that because it has this exceptional texture that there's something happening deeper with the flavor profile, but it's in fact, it's just sugar. Right. It's just sugar in almost all cases. Cause sugar is cheap. So it's like this textural thing of like crunchy and airy and creamy. And like that, that is really what I like investigating actually about recreate. So it's like, can I, in almost every case it's, can I get the texture while making it actually like the flavor of something I want to eat, you know? And I'm like pretty, um, I, I've all, as I've also gotten deeper into my career and more into development, I really understand how important nostalgia is and how powerful it is and how much the things you eat and love as a kid shape you and your palate and your brain, like it's wired into your brain.

51:26So I'm never like, giving anyone a hard time for liking anything. Because a lot of these things I did not have a connection with as a kid, so I'm trying them as an adult being like, this sucks, this is gross. That's the tendency as a creator chef person. But I never hold it against anyone for the thing that they love because it's so much more – I'm never going to get it. It's about this childhood wiring that you had because of how old you were and where you were and you were with your friends and you got it from the vending machine, whatever it is. So I generally, it's, yeah, right, right. It's the nostalgia of it, the comfort, the memories.

52:03And so people, I'm like, I always just let people have their tastes, except for one thing I did recently where I was like, guys, this is not good. No one should eat this. It was the, um, I guess this episode hasn't been out yet. So this is, I guess it's a scoop, but it's, um, like hostess fruit pies. You had one of those? I've had them. I've definitely recall the flavor being worse than the texture. It was so wild because it was the first thing I really tasted where I was like, if you closed your eyes, I could not pick out what this was. What it was, yeah. Like zero fruit flavor. Yeah. Zero. It was wild.

52:36So I was like, guys, this is just, this is not good. So did you take a pass? You did this. No, I still did it. I was like, I could do this with my eyes closed. You can make that. Yeah. Are there any that you will not, like just you will not touch? I mean, I have a preference, a strong preference away from like the gummy. Yeah. Not because I don't like them, but because it's just like hard. I just don't feel like toiling at home. Yeah, you'll spin sugar. You know your way around that. Yeah, the gummy texture is so specific. I guess I could try it. One thought is like I could try tapioca and go that route.

53:07Like I would maybe wade into those waters again. Yeah. We'll see. But I like to stay in like the chocolate realm. That's a good way. Can you make a better Reese's? Can you make a better Reese's? Yeah, I did that in like the original. BA probably. BA one. And it was, someone asked me that. I was at a 4th of July party at Cal's house and his 11-year-old was like, can you make Reese's? And I was like, that was easy. I already did that. You're like, that was season one, guys. It's summer. We're kind of getting into this great season, especially up in the Hudson Valley. It doesn't really start popping until September into October.

53:40So how are you looking at the New York farmer's markets and baking through the summer right now? Yeah, it always starts so much later than you think with strawberries. I mean, rhubarb comes first as far as like the baking fruits. Do we really want to mess with rhubarb? I love rhubarb. You love it. Okay. I love it. It's very dear to me. I think it's actually underrated. No, no, that's okay. I love rhubarb. I didn't mean to take on your family. No, no, no, no. It's interesting because I think there's other spring things where I'm like, it's just, we're just hyping it because it's spring and we're excited that it's a green thing and I'm not so into it.

54:16Like I don't. Fiddlehead ferns. Fiddleheads. Like do you really want to eat fiddlehead ferns? Tastes like dirt. Personally, no. Tastes like dirt. It's just like pure chlorophyll, basically. But rhubarb, I think it's like, I'm excited it's there. I'm excited to use it. I think it's awesome. I love stuff that's like so tart like that. And then strawberries. So we're still in that time period. Like stone fruit hasn't really hit yet. So it's like we're waiting. All these things are really hard-earned, I think, when they come in. And I just think summer baking, it's like galettes. It's three months of galettes.

54:48Three months of galettes. It's because you're just going to the market. You've got your galette style and you're just picking stone fruit or berries. Yeah. It's a time of year when you want to do as little as possible to the product. Yeah. Are apricots in yet? Are they? I haven't seen them. I mean, this season is going to be really tough because of the frost in April. Yeah. Like in the Hudson Valley. Yeah. I don't know how the peaches are going to be kind of – sorry, we're getting into a little stone fruit talk, but like the peaches are going to be kind of rough. We got Georgia peaches, which were amazing.

55:15The peach truck. Peach truck, peach truck. Peach truck is great. If you can find a peach truck on your corner, you got to go there. Yeah. That's great. Well, or you can drive an hour, which is also what we did. Last year, did I tell you this? We got 100 pounds of peaches last year and it was way too much. So you had a plug in Jersey, right? Or New York State? No, no. We went to Jersey. Yeah. And the peach truck from Georgia came up. Yeah. When is this happening? This happened last year later than it did this year. Last year, this must have been in July. So you've done it already? We already did it.

55:43Yeah. And got like a much smaller amount. But because it was great. A hundred pounds of peaches is truly insane. Like that was unhinged. A hundred pounds is a lot. And I made so much peach preserves. We still have some frozen. Like it was insane. Anyway, but so apricots are a favorite because like a lot of stone fruit, it's very interesting when they bake, they concentrate in tartness as well as sweetness. So you get like a more, it's just a more intense flavor. So those are great baked, but like you really want to do as little as possible. Like a little, you know, something on the base of the pastry to absorb some of the moisture, like a frangipan or like even a mixture of like ground nuts and like a little sugar and cornstarch.

56:21And then the really cool thing that I was doing is throwing it in the wood oven. Like to do a wood fired galette is really special and really cool. And so I built this oven and now I'm trying to use it because it's just sitting there. The oven has main character energy. Yes. In a lot of your. And like I was so painstaking in the building of it and it really holds heat. like it works well it functions so I'm like I should use this thing okay what can you tell us about your next book we're in a bookstore I know you've been working on it I know we want to buy it what can you say I'm so excited about this next book it's the first time I've been able to work on a book with like a very long runway and a lot of time and so the first so it's due out in fall 27 so a year from this fall and it's savory and I've had savory like savory we're doing it Claire Stafford Savory Book.

57:12You know, it's funny. It's like I can finally recipe test and eat the stuff I'm making to like sustain myself and my family versus like just trying to give it away to all the neighbors because like, you know, the thing I – when I was developing What's for Dessert, I lived off of frozen dumplings because I would recipe test all day and I was like, now I have to feed myself. Yeah, you don't balance it. Yeah, you cannot – Part of me was like, should I call this book? like people cannot live on sugar alone. Like that was what I tried doing for this book. So now it's so nice to develop a book where I can eat, like I want to eat the food.

57:50And it's not just that I want to eat it. It is food that is, these are recipes that I've made over and over again. I think moving to the Hudson Valley was so important for how this book came together because it is, we became home cooks. Like we have nary a restaurant within a 20 mile radius. Like we are cooking three meals a day for ourselves. And so I, over the years really developed a philosophy of home cooking and that's what I'm distilling in this next book. And so it's not, I feel like I can really get behind and make an argument for all the recipes because like this is stuff that I make at home all the time.

58:28Not every recipe, but give us one teaser. teaser? So I'm like halfway through the writing. I spent a long time thinking about it, which is important. And now an artist does, you get it. Yeah, you can figure out like, what it what is this project? So now I'm halfway through. So I'm in the pasta chapter. So I was just doing, I'm doing like a thing of like a make ahead sauces. Like you want to make your bolo, your vodka sauce, like stuff you can make ahead and an oven. This is a great recipe, an oven pomodoro. You just throw a couple cans of San Marzano canned whole tomatoes into a baking dish, take a lot of olive oil and a lot of garlic and sizzle it on the stovetop and then just pour it over and stick it in the oven.

59:11And you bake it until the top sort of starts to char a little bit. Brown, black, right? Getting into that black phase. That's so cool. And you can poke the garlic through so that the garlic doesn't get too brown. But the oil sits on top and it kind of just gets concentrated. And then you mash it with a potato. You mash it. Yeah. I like the masher because the hand blender will aerate it and turn a little orange. So I like just keeping it kind of coarse and just potato masher. And it's so easy you can forget about it. So now I'm kind of in the realm of talking about the pickup. What is a pickup?

59:42You make your sauce ahead of time and you got to pick it up. You got to cook your pasta and brown a little extra garlic and add a little olive oil and bring it together. So I'm in that realm. That's fun to use pickup and that kind of restaurant methodology in your development that's cool. It's a good example of a restaurant technique that you should use at home because you want to make your sauce ahead. You can kind of meal prep and you can freeze it and plan. Yeah, and honestly you have 15 minutes because your kid is doing something. Right, right, right. These are all recipes, unfortunately, that our toddler will eat.

1:00:13It's so great. Well, I cannot wait for your save return in the pages and we'll be here in a year or so to talk about it. Before we get to questions, so think about your questions. On this is a taste, we have a guest about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious. Taste check. Claire Saffitt's Rizzoli edition. One ingredient you're buying by the case this summer. Every summer, a flat, which is I think 16 pints. Yeah. A flat of sour cherries every year. That's awesome. And then pinning, washing, stemming, pitting, freezing. Do you use the tool?

1:00:49Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, the cherry pitter is like the one, it's like the pitter, the cherry pitter and the ricer are the two single use things in my kitchen that I'm like, it's worth it. It's like probably has like tape around the handle kind of thing. Oh, well, we've gone through, like the handle has fallen off. Yeah. Been there. Yeah. Okay. Big one. Dark bakeware or light bakeware. This is like for real. Yeah. I can't think of a single use for dark bakeware. Only light. Yeah. Yeah. For evenness of baking, if you're worried about sticking used parchment, like there's no, I don't think there's really a use for dark bakeware.

1:01:19The last thing you made that didn't work. oh okay so in the pasta chapter i'm working on i was really trying to make one pot pasta work but like it doesn't work you mean like the like red wine like no like cooking the dry pasta in the sauce yeah yeah okay it's like it just releases too much starch yeah starch yeah and the sauce becomes so gloopy so like my okay this is maybe more semantic than anything but i'm like If I boil the pasta and then drain it and use the same pot, am I calling it one pot? I think so. So I tried this like zucchini, this like brothy zucchini with like grated zucchini and or kitty.

1:01:58And it doesn't work. I just feel like use two pots. It's going to be better. Like to me it's worth it. Pasta has a right and wrong texture. Yeah. And one pot goes to the wrong side. The one pot method really encourages overcooking. Overcooking gluten development, not great. Couple more stand mixer, yes or no? This week? No. I have to lift it from like a lower shelf. It's almost never. Not there. Yeah. One thing your pizza oven journey has taught you about holistically about baking? I think the more I use it, the more I realize and think about the idea that like wood fired or open fire baking is baking.

1:02:47Like it's very primal. And when I go from using the outdoor oven to the indoor oven, I'm like, oh, the indoor oven's like kind of sad. It's like it wishes it was the outdoor oven, you know? But like baking with wood and flame is just so cool. I really love it. I love that. One holiday recipe you are working on right now. uh yeah this is not this follows like the i'm not doing this because it's summer and we're four months out from thanksgiving because like this is the time when all the magazines papers are working on thanksgiving but it is it's just coinciding but i was i am working on like a stuffing recipe for thanksgiving that is kind of just bread pudding not necessarily not bread it like leans into bread pudding and it has roasted squash in it because i'm like i just feel like you need to consolidate carbs at Thanksgiving.

1:03:35Otherwise, 70 % of the table is carbs. And so I'm like, can you put the squash side dish into the stuffing and give it a kind of like creaminess, like throw in some Gruyere cheese? Because the thing I don't like about stuffing is how it can be so wet. And I'm like, I think it needs more egg and like, why not throw in a little dairy? And just make it like a savory bread pudding. Go full bread pudding. Don't go halfway, go full way. We're not making health food at Thanksgiving. So I'm like, go further in that direction and just make it custard basically. It's really good. It's, I bet. What are you eating for dessert tonight?

1:04:09Uh, we're having like a weird dessert. We're at a dessert desert at our house right now. And it's making me really mad because I'm developing savory. And so I just am like, I'm the only one making dessert and then it's not there and I'm annoyed. Uh, probably just, we have some like good, um, fruition milk chocolate at home. You had this fruition chocolate. It's made. Oh, from Colorado? No, no. I think it's Catskills. Okay. I think it's being made in the Catskills. It's really good. They have a brown butter, like made with Barney Brook brown butter, milk chocolate bar. It's really good. Really good.

1:04:43And then probably like some, we have like some peaches getting a little too ripe. So some fruit. Last one, as always, your favorite sandwich. Oh my, oh, BLT. Nice. Especially, yeah, getting in. I mean, I only, I only eat BLTs two months out of the year. Three, maybe. like kind of July, August, September, maybe August, September, October. And it's just such a good sandwich. Now, is it Duke's or Hellman's? Is it white bread? Is it sourdough? Let's just build it up just a little bit more and then we'll get to questions. Actually, Kewpie. Oh, you go Kewpie. My mayo of choice. Cool, cool. So creamy, so delicious.

1:05:21Good MSG. Yeah, good tang. Good tang. Little rice vinegar in there. Kewpie, I like to toast the bread and rub with garlic. I think that's really important. I think I need the raw garlic on there. Otherwise it doesn't pop as much like super heavily salt. The tomato, I like thick slices. Any vin on the tomato? Yes. A little red wine vinegar. A little bit like a dash. Okay. And then that's, that's really it. And I, I think I do like a more of like a sourdough, but I just don't want the bread to be so hard that it, like it's already a hard enough sandwich to eat. I'm, I'm, I'm, you don't want the, the tomato just like going out.

1:05:58Sorry, you don't want the tomato to shoot out. That's the worst. You don't want to pull the whole piece of bacon out with you, you know, when you bite it. So I'm like very, I'm super, super picky about sandwich construction. And like, I don't like when a sandwich, like you take one bite from one spot and it's different than the bite you get from the other spot, you know? The French are so good at distribution of like the homon bear. Like it's always like a bite of the three things. I do love like the, I want it to be consistent throughout. So yeah, but I think, I think it is the best sandwich.

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1:07:52That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash taste for free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash taste. All right, we have a few minutes for questions and we'll get to signing. Yeah, right there. Thank you. First one, you're just like right there. You just did it. I'm ready. You're ready. Can you tell us across all your books the hardest recipe to develop and why? Oh, the hardest recipe to develop. up? Um, it's always the easy ones because easy is not, or the simple ones I should say, because simple is not easy. Simple is really hard. There is a recipe in the, the first thing that comes to mind, there's a recipe in what's for dessert.

1:08:30That's like a polenta pound cake. I tested that so many times. And usually it's because I have an idea in my head of what I want it to be like. And I'm just trying to get there. It doesn't mean that like the tests themselves aren't good. I very frequently like give away the tests and people are like, this is great like what's wrong with it I'm like it's just not what I want it to be um so I gave that to my neighbors a lot and they were like this rules they were just like why are you still making this um like it's just not quite there so it landed in a good place but I do like to go back to recipes and think like maybe I got 90 of the way there can I get to 100 and and see and play around with it so yeah that that one was maybe like definitely double digits testing um and like probably could have kept going.

1:09:15But for your sanity and like just notions about waste, you got to call it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. All right. Another question. We'll go here and then in the back. Thank you. I'm sure you've gotten this question lots, but with all of your experimenting and like trials, have you found any gluten-free flour that like can live up to the texture of like the normal baking that you would do? It's a good question. And I do get this question sometimes, but I, and I don't have a great answer because I feel like that's just not my realm. And I always refer people, um, to Erin Goyaga's work. Um, she's like Canel and Vinny and has so many amazing gluten-free.

1:09:58So I think she does her own blend for sure. That's a blend of several different, and it was like brown rice flour in it and maybe some potato starch, that kind of thing. Um, I mean, I've heard good things with the King Arthur blend that it's like a pretty good one for one. A lot of times it just depends on what your, like it can perform well in certain baked goods and not as well in others. So it really depends on that. Um, so I think like there might be a time where I tackle gluten-free, but I feel like Erin does it so well and she's like a master. So I'm like, I've had people ask me, I'm like just her books that those would be my Bibles.

1:10:33Collab. Yeah. The two of you. She's so wonderful. She's so nice. She's great. Yeah. Lovely. Someone right there, I think kind of question. Yeah. um when you're developing new recipes like for your new cookbook do you feel any pressure to like follow trends or is that not even a consideration for you um that's a good question

1:10:54i generally no i don't really feel pressure to follow trends there's certain other considerations though where it's like maybe i feel like i have to include something here because it rounds it out or Or there has to be a Caesar salad because someone who's going to buy this book is going to want a recipe for that. It's almost the opposite of following trends. It's like I have to sort of include some of the old faithful standby recipes.

1:11:25So it's not so much trends, but there are certain things where I think like, do I need to put this in there? And a lot of thinking about a book is like looking at how the recipes speak to each other, how the chapters speak to each other. I just wrapped up my salads chapter. So it's like I'm looking at my table of contents thinking like – I really like where it landed. But it's like do I need another leafy salad in here? Do I need something – like I don't have any – I don't have a lot of avocado or I don't have a lot of radishes. Like do I need that? And then you end up, you have to be careful because then you end up in a place where you're putting something in that maybe is justified like in a global sense, but sort of as its own standalone recipe, you're sort of like, what is this really adding kind of, you know?

1:12:11So there's a lot of editing, really. And I've gotten better at that over time. In my first book, I remember my editor was kind of like, like sent me a list of recipes that she thought I should cut. And at first I was like, how dare you? And then I looked at them and I was like, no, you're right. This is for a different book. It doesn't belong in this book. Yeah, when you get that note and that memo, it's like, it's heartbreaking. But they're always right. But now I love cutting. I'm always trying to throw stuff out in my house, get rid of stuff. I like that feeling, actually. So it's nice to cut stuff.

1:12:45More questions. All right. We got one right. Izzy, to your right. Okay, well, go ahead. Yeah, then you. Sorry. Hi. This is kind of similar to the question. you answered before about the one pasta, but is there like specifically a dessert maybe that you tried to develop that sounded so good in your head, but for some reason or another, you just were never able to do it, like your white whale desserts or something? Yeah, not so much a white whale, but there are ideas that I've come up with where I'm like, it doesn't exist for a reason. I mean, I generally think in the realm of desserts, I'm almost never trying to do something new because I don't think it's possible.

1:13:23Really? I'm not going to come up with a new dessert, really. If I do, it's just like an iteration on something, or I'm kind of combining two ideas, or it's a variation on something that already exists. I truly do not think that I'm going to invent anything new. Even the things that we think are new are just, like the Basque cheesecake is just someone's, like a Basque chef's interpretation of a New York cheesecake, like made in his kitchen. So that being said, there are some ideas where I was like, oh, this would be fun. Like, what if I try this and it doesn't work? I did try like a, this is for the, for what's for dessert.

1:13:58I tried a grapes flambe. I was like, oh, you could do like cherries Jubilee and, and like bananas foster, like a flambe dessert. I was like, what if I did grapes and I used grappa? I'm like, isn't that so clever? But like, it doesn't work. They get pulpy. They lose, they have, they're too juicy. I tried like three times and I was like, oh, that's why, that's why no one does this. It doesn't work. So yeah. So you're looking for that proof of concept. on the first couple tests, and sometimes you don't get it, and then it's time to go on. Unfortunately, with my polenta pound cake, it worked pretty well the first time, and then I just spun my wheels for like 10 more tests.

1:14:33So, yeah. Hi. I was wondering that when you began your career in recipe development, how do you approach failure, assuming that you went through several iterations? Yeah, how did I approach failure? I mean, in my early days of recipe developing, I started by being a tester. Like I started by testing other people's recipes that they developed and they would hand me. And then I had like already tasted. So that's how I really learned. And I started off my career like very gradually, moving from that like testing role to a developer role. And so I'm working for a big national food magazine. it's like I wasn't really reinventing the wheel in any way.

1:15:19Like I wasn't taking big risks. So I didn't really have a lot of failure as far as recipes in the beginning. I remember like the first recipe I ever developed. Actually, this is a funny story. I've told this before, but the first recipe I was ever allowed to develop on my own for the magazine was a peanut butter and jelly. It was a peanut butter blondie with like strawberry jam, like peanut butter and jelly. And I made it the first time and I put it up for tasting and everyone liked it. But there was like, oh, can you like make it a little saltier, like a little bit this or a little that, like just small tweaks.

1:15:45And then I made it like five more times and they kept getting, I kept getting more feedback. Yeah. That stuff to change. And then I went back to the original recipe and they were like, you nailed it. I was like, you guys, I didn't tell them. It's amazing. But I went, yeah. So, yeah. So, you know, I think it's like people, like it's their job to give me feedback. And so that's what they're doing. Yeah. That's the thing about magazines. There's just like too many people whose job is to give feedback. It was a lot of metaphorical cooks. A lot of, a lot of cooks in there. so I think like just knowing that I was starting out and had a lot to learn I was pretty I felt pretty magnanimous about like feedback and and that idea of like you didn't you didn't really nail it you know um so I think having that open-mindedness was really good for me it was humbling like you know being in a kitchen and being like I know the least out of everyone here but it's a good place to start I like your point about testing if anybody here listening on the show is interested in getting into cookbooks and writing and writing recipes, truly the best way to start is to reach out to your favorite creator, writer, and offer your services to test a recipe because they're always needed.

1:16:53And that's a great way, as you did, to test recipes, to get kind of in the flow of thinking of these recipes. It's just terrific. Reach out. Yeah. It's the best way to learn writing, how to write a recipe. That was so important. Such a good skill that I picked up from that. Two more? Let's take two more. Okay. Yeah, we have one right there. And then we'll do one there. Hi, Claire. Hi. I love both books that you've released. I think my favorite chapter from both is actually your last one because I think that they're just helpful reference recipes that I go to over and over again, like your brioche.

1:17:28I'm just wondering, what are your reference recipes? What books are you sourcing from when you just need to pull a shortbread? Yeah, really good question. So the last two chapters of both books were like the foundational recipes of like, and sort of technique based, like your all purpose pastry, like your, your friend Japan. Um, I have certain sources that I go to, like, I think of sort of like, who is the best person to go to for this recipe that I'm thinking of. And like, right now I'm in a savory realm. So it's like, I'm looking at references and a lot of times I'm not going to a, sometimes I'm going to a book, but sometimes I'm just looking online of like, you know, I'm sure this has been published somewhere.

1:18:04Like what is, like, what is Marcella's recipe for, like, mania cauda, that kind of thing, you know, sort of looking at like, and it's really about evaluating. And I'm not usually making them, but I'm just looking at them to see, like, what is, what are the sets of judgments here and calls? Like, what is the ingredient list? What are they including? What are the proportions? so I'm sort of thinking about who is the right person to to fall back on for this particular thing that I that I want to research and now I'm kind of at the point in my career where I've developed so many things like my I am my own reference like I look back and I'm like oh yeah like that from dessert person like I have a recipe for that like I'll use that yeah but but you're not on like TikTok no you're not like I don't have I actually think Vince made me at TikTok a while ago, but I do not have the app on my phone.

1:18:59You might find me out there. I actually don't know. Okay. Let's see one more. We have right there and we'll do a signing after. And if you have Claire's books, you're in this beautiful bookstore and you're looking for a book, the reference to Nicola Lam's book, Sift is just so good. So just direct there. Yeah. Excellent. I was wondering like when the books come out and you're thinking of videos that you're going to make based on the recipes, how do you decide which recipes from the book get a video or like the priority of them? Is it the easiest, the ones you think most people will make, the most difficult to have like a video guide for those people?

1:19:34Yeah, really good question. And I'm kind of at that point now because I'm developing for the next book, like thinking about what would be good, what would make good videos and how do I want to introduce the book to people via YouTube and kind of explain it. So just kind of thinking about like what recipes are emblematic of what this book is about. for dessert person, like the tart tatin or like the apple tart. Like I just, I love apple desserts. Like that felt really important in the book. And like not every recipe, you can't, they can't all be everything you want. Like so at the James Beard Awards a few years ago where we were hanging out, it was 23?

1:20:17Was it 23? Yeah, 23, yeah. I was talking to Nicole Rucker who was explaining like the testing process that like, when you're testing a book for the beard awards like you're not you're not no one can cook all the books like it's really like you're kind of like by chance like letting people you know people just kind of picking recipes from your book to test and kind of judging the book based on that so that makes you feel like oh I want every single recipe to totally nail it and be like the most perfect recipe hit every point but it just can't it just doesn't happen that way um there every There's not filler, but there's recipes that kind of stitch it together.

1:20:55And so you think about there's just a feeling about certain recipes where it's like, oh, I just really like this one. This is a really good one. And it might just be really clever or it might be really beautiful or it might be somehow greater than the sum of its parts. So there's just recipes that are a little extra sparkly that I think like this would be great to show people, to explain what this book is. But your books are all killer, no filler, I must say. Every single recipe and every single book is perfect. Claire, this has been so much fun. You've been a great audience. Thank you so much for joining.

1:21:36This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skrzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste. Thank you.