In short
Renata Ameni, chef partner of Birdie Bakery and all-day café in Williamsburg, discusses her path from Brazil to elite fine dining, then shifting to a more comforting, neighborhood-focused bakery; she also covers Birdie’s menu philosophy, signature items, and how popular products rise and fall.
Guest background
Brazilian-born pastry chef with fine-dining experience including Eleven Madison Park and Crown Shy (with James Kent). She studied advertising/marketing and hotel management, learned pastry through strict apprenticeship in São Paulo, then worked in the U.S. at Ritz-Carlton (Denver), June George, and Manresa (Los Gatos).
Key claims
She aims for “comforting and familiar” flavors with Michelin-level technique; she uses a “three-ingredient” focus to avoid overcomplication; Birdie’s bread service was designed to be shareable and free at Crown Shy, and that approach carried over.
Notable examples
Crown Shy’s Parker-house-style pull-apart bread; Birdie’s chicken milanese and tuna melt (croissant + mozzarella, plancha-crisp/melty); churro croissant with dulce de leche (started as a mistake); guava-and-cheese Danish (“Romeo and Juliet”); seasonal peach trifle.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOEarly Food Memories
0:03 to 0:31
Renata shares her nostalgic food memories that shaped her culinary path.
“So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for.”
Early Food Memories
1:41 to 4:10
Renata shares her nostalgic food memories that shaped her culinary path.
“Today on the show, we talk about bridging the gap between different styles of restaurants, making singular pastries, and more.”
Path to Pastry Chef
4:10 to 6:12
Renata discusses her unconventional journey into the culinary world without formal training.
“No, I wouldn't just go like a piece of cake.”
Early Career in New York
6:12 to 8:36
Renata reflects on her experiences in New York's restaurant scene and her early jobs.
“And, you know, back in the day, cookbooks were, it's not that the cookbooks are not important.”
Crown Shy Experience
8:36 to 10:40
Renata details her time at Crown Shy, discussing challenges and successes.
“And we would literally go to farms and get the produce from the actual farms.”
Opening Birdie Bakery
10:40 to 13:14
Renata shares her transition from Crown Shy to launching Birdie Bakery.
“I mean, I'm not like bragging or anything.”
Opening Birdie Bakery
14:00 to 14:22
Renata shares her transition from Crown Shy to launching Birdie Bakery.
“shipping on your order with the code THISISTASTE.”
Opening Birdie Bakery
14:26 to 14:42
Renata shares her transition from Crown Shy to launching Birdie Bakery.
“their collection of American-made cast iron and carbon steel cookware.”
The Journey of Birdee Bakery
15:10 to 15:31
Discover how Renata Ameni transitioned from restaurant work to opening her bakery.
“These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration.”
Inception of Birdee Bakery
15:31 to 17:25
Renata shares the story of how the idea for Birdee Bakery began during the pandemic.
“So when did you first start hearing about Birdie as a project?”
Show all 22 chapters
Location and Aesthetics of Birdee Bakery
17:26 to 19:32
Explore the unique location and design of Birdee Bakery in the historic Domino Sugar Factory.
“Yeah and it is such a special location not only because it's on the waterfront in Williamsburg it's so beautiful but also the Domino Sugar Factory used to be one of the biggest sugar factories in the country.”
Menu Highlights and Comforting Flavors
19:33 to 21:45
Renata discusses the comforting and familiar flavors featured in Birdee's menu.
“And when you opened it, I was scared to break into anything.”
Signature Pastries and Their Origins
21:46 to 24:40
Learn about the popular pastries at Birdee Bakery and their unique backgrounds.
“I think those are like, oh, we have the bacon, egg, and cheese too, which is in a Parker house bun.”
Balancing Menu Items and Seasonal Specials
24:41 to 28:00
Renata explains how she balances core items with new additions and seasonal specials.
“pastries i i don't eat them because i know i get so sick of them because first when i when i'm working on something i just like i spend months you know like working on and i taste it like so much.”
Exploring the Neighborhood Bakery Scene
28:00 to 29:14
Discussion about the community aspect of bakeries and their accessibility.
“A lot of people come there like every day.”
Transitioning from Fine Dining to Bakery
29:14 to 30:26
Renata shares her shift from high-end dining to running a bakery and her style evolution.
“I'm thinking about you talking about having to maybe, you know, tone down your style when you went from these kind of three-star places to Crown Shy and then also going to a bakery like Birdie.”
Three Ingredients Approach to Baking
30:26 to 31:49
Discussion on simplifying recipes to enhance clarity and efficiency in baking.
“And people obviously dine in and this kind of peach trifle, for example, that's a plated dessert, basically, that someone can sit down and eat.”
Bakeries and Brazilian Cuisine in NYC
31:49 to 34:24
Renata talks about her favorite bakeries and the challenges of finding Brazilian ingredients in New York.
“I focus on these three ingredients and make it good.”
Bakeries and Brazilian Cuisine in NYC
35:05 to 35:30
Renata talks about her favorite bakeries and the challenges of finding Brazilian ingredients in New York.
“Experience a membership that backs your business journey with American Express Business Platinum.”
Rapid Fire Favorites Game
36:06 to 38:09
Renata plays a rapid-fire game revealing her favorites in baking and dining.
“I'm going to make you pick some favorites and you can just tell me the first answer that comes to mind.”
Reflections on Fictional Food Scenes
38:09 to 42:01
Discussion surrounding fictional food scenes and their impact on bakers.
“But yeah, it's like a cycle of new things in New York.”
Reflections on Fictional Food Scenes
42:40 to 43:15
Discussion surrounding fictional food scenes and their impact on bakers.
“Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Renata Ameni:This episode is brought to you by Facebook. So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for. You sent a message and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew. Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for. From a browse to a bike ride, this summer, find more on Facebook. Class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look.
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1:06Evan Kleiman:To this day, sometimes I'm like, oh, I can't believe I actually have a bakery in this building, right? Because when I'm there every day, I become like Jada. But sometimes when you are like at the bridge, you're like driving, and then you see the building, and you're like, oh, my God, holy shit, that's where I work.
1:23Renata Ameni:Oh, I wonder what's there. Oh, it's my bakery. Exactly. This is Taste. I'm your host, Eliza Barbinell. Henata Ameni is the chef partner of Birdie, a bakery and all-day cafe on the Williamsburg waterfront. The Brazilian-born chef is a fine dining veteran who worked at Eleven Madison Park and opened Crown Shy before hopping over into more casual territory. Today on the show, we talk about bridging the gap between different styles of restaurants, making singular pastries, and more. Hinata Amey, this is Taze. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you for having me. How did I do with my Brazilian pronunciation?
2:05Evan Kleiman:You know, absolutely perfect. Okay, I'm ready to go to Brazil.
2:10Renata Ameni:I'm really happy to have you in the studio. I think your pastries are so delicious and your career is so interesting. And I'm excited to get into all of that. But beforehand, I'm wondering if you would tell me an early food memory from growing up that you think somehow, you know, shows your point of view was important to you?
2:28Evan Kleiman:I have a memory. It's not like any specific food, but when I was little, my dad used to take us to dinner every Friday night. So it was something that, and all kinds of restaurants. And in Brazil, we don't have kids' menus. So you would just eat whatever your parents would like would order for you. And that's, I like, I have this memory. I think that's one of the reasons why I kind of started going, like working in restaurants. It's just like very like nostalgic. Yeah. And yeah, but like one, I remember the first time like I tried like oysters, but I don't have like a specific food memory. Did you like oysters the first time?
3:09Evan Kleiman:I did. I loved it. Yeah. And then I just made my dad like, like order more. It was, it's, yeah, it was weird. I loved it. I think it was like eight years old or something.
3:18Renata Ameni:Wow. Well, to be honest, I still don't really like oysters. So eight-year-old you has something up on me. And can you tell me about when did you first decide that you wanted to work in food and what did your career kind of look like?
3:33Evan Kleiman:um well i actually i went to i didn't go to culinary school at all um so i i've been doing this for like 22 years so 20 years ago like in brazil there wasn't even like a culinary school i actually went to school for advertising and marketing and then there was there wasn't a culinary school but there was a hotel management school and i'm like oh this could be cool you know a little bit more I didn't really like what I was studying and like I need to find something else but I want to kind of like finish what I was doing so I kind of double major I went to like two schools in hotel management and then you have a little bit of like culinary like lessons and then I mean I really liked it but I didn't want to do savory I thought it was really complicated so I decided to do pastry and little did I know that it's actually more complicated so much harder um and that's uh kind of how I got into did you have a big sweet tooth growing up or you kind of like I want to make the things I like eating or um I always like to eat a little like dessert but it wasn't like like crazy but I like I want to like a little things sweet but after I I would eat something savory.
4:55Evan Kleiman:No, I wouldn't just go like a piece of cake. I wanted to have maybe like some potato chips and then the piece of cake.
5:02Renata Ameni:Yeah.
5:02Evan Kleiman:Sounds very unhealthy.
5:03Renata Ameni:It would be good potato chip cake, actually. A little salty sweet.
5:07Evan Kleiman:I know. It's delicious.
5:08Renata Ameni:So you learned in restaurants.
5:10Evan Kleiman:I learned in restaurants. Yes. So I started working in this pastry shop in Sao Paulo, Brazil. and it was at the time, it was one of the only ones. And it was with this French pastry chef and he was very strict and it was great. I learned a lot, I learned a lot of discipline. And I was there for four years. And then I moved to the States. Because there, like I said, today the food scene has changed so much over there. But 20 years ago, there was not a lot of opportunities, especially for pastry. So I came here and I started working at the Ritz-Carlton. I was in Denver, Colorado. And then after two years, I moved to New York.
5:59Evan Kleiman:And do you remember why you wanted to move to New York? I don't know. I always wanted to move to New York because there's so many. Right? There's just like so many restaurants and so many like new things to learn. And, you know, back in the day, cookbooks were, it's not that the cookbooks are not important. But before you just had cookbooks. There was no like internet. Right. I sound like ancient. I sound like I'm 100. You look very young.
6:26Renata Ameni:So it's very jarring for me.
6:30Evan Kleiman:Yeah. Anyway, so we get cookbooks from all these chefs that had restaurants in New York. And I was like, no, I need to be like in New York. Not just because of the food scene, but just I feel and I still feel like I'm part of something. like being in New York. Me too. Right? Yeah. Like even though like I don't do much, believe me. It's not like I'm out and about all the time, but it's still like you feel like, I feel like I belong. Yeah.
6:56Renata Ameni:And what was your first restaurant job in New York?
6:58Evan Kleiman:It was June George. I was at June George for about like a year and a half. Then I wanted to work for Angela Pinkerton at 11 Madison Park. And I was there for five years. that must have been intense it was intense it was a great experience it I mean it changed my life working there but it was really really fun also you know everyone was kind of like on the same boat you know everyone had the same like goals and we everyone was like in the shits yeah You know, all the time. So it kind of like everyone kind of like bonded. Right. So it was really, it was amazing. And that's where I met James Kinch.
7:46Evan Kleiman:So I consider that 11 Madison Park to like change my life. Yeah. And then I moved to California for a year and a half, almost like two years. I went to work at Manresa in Los Gatos, David Kinch's restaurant. Also amazing. He is such a great chef, a great inspiration. The produce in California, you know, I always say like cooking in California feels like you're cheating because the produce is so good. You don't really have to do like a lot.
8:18Renata Ameni:Yeah, I'm from California. So I still think about how I wish I had that produce. Although we have nice produce here. We do, but I don't think that we can't really compare.
8:30Evan Kleiman:It's the best. It's the best.
8:31Renata Ameni:And Manresa has such an established bread program. I imagine you got to do kind of different things there as well.
8:39Evan Kleiman:Yeah. And we would literally go to farms and get the produce from the actual farms. That had never happened to me in New York. You order stuff from farms, but you don't actually go over there to pick up. Right. So it was really interesting. I got to travel a lot with them, which was great. And then, but I wanted to come back to New York. Like, you know, like I like California, but, and California too, it's really far from Brazil. And I had to, it was like a 12-hour flight or something, and New York's like a lot closer. and I wanted to come back to the city and James Kent, who I worked with at 11 Madison Park, which we actually, he was there for 10 years.
9:26Evan Kleiman:I was there for five and we left the company exactly the same day. It was like such a coincidence. Wow. And he was opening Crown Shy and I wanted to come back to New York and then we connected and then I opened the restaurant with him. I started, I think, like four months before we opened. And then we opened Crown Shy. And we were like really busy right out of the bed. Yeah.
9:57Renata Ameni:Do you remember the four months kind of before it opened? What were you trying to accomplish? What was your kind of vision for the food there?
10:05Evan Kleiman:I wanted to, and we were literally like cooking. Because Crown Shy and Saga, they are in a building, right? In Seventy Pine Building. and we were testing recipes. We had a penthouse in the building. It was pretty nice. It was really nice. We were in the kitchen, this like beautiful view. But it was just like a home kitchen and I was trying to like do breads and ice creams and it was like very challenging, but it was great. I tried to, in the beginning, it was a little bit hard for me because I've only worked in, I mean, I'm not like bragging or anything. I feel like I only had worked in three Michelin Stars restaurants.
10:48Evan Kleiman:You know, I've never like worked any like what else? I sound obnoxious. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's just obnoxious. It's okay. And then so for me to do something that had a little bit to tone down like a little, you know, my desserts and to do something more casual, it was challenging in the beginning, you know? Yeah.
11:07Renata Ameni:And that really speaks to the restaurants you were at before, because I don't think a lot of people would look at Crown Chi and say, oh, this is like a casual restaurant. Right. It's still I mean, it's literally elevated up above the city and it has a certain level of that in the food.
11:23Evan Kleiman:Yes. But from where I was coming from, you know, it was like more casual. And then I would like talk to James about something that I wanted to do or like I would show him. And he's like, Renata, we are like, we're supposed to be casual, right? And, but then like, I kind of like learn and we kind of like learn together how we wanted the dessert, the food to be, you know, because the desserts, it needs to make sense with this, like the savory food. I cannot just be doing like a random thing, you know. And James, he wanted everything to be really like shareable. and I know one of the first things that he told me, he wanted to have a bread service, but he wanted it to be free.
12:09Evan Kleiman:He wanted everyone to start the meal with the bread. So you kind of like you were breaking bread. That's one of his favorite things. Yeah, and then the bread at Cronchie ended up becoming super popular and well-known. I didn't think it was going to be like that at all. you know and it's and can you describe that bread a little bit so is um it's a parker house though and we i made it like they're like pull apart now so cute we'll sheet it we'll like roll it and punch and then put the filling side and then uh we fold uh the circle so it looks like a little taco. Yeah. And then we put in the bread pan.
12:57Evan Kleiman:And super time consuming. But, you know, and then I couldn't change it. I thought about it, but I'm like, no, Renata, you have to. We can't change this like ever again. And they still do it at Crown Shy. And then how long were you there? I've been with the company for eight years. I was at Crown until I basically opened Birdie. No, because I was at Crown until I think like 2024. And then I became, because I was doing Crown Shy and Saga. Yeah. And then I became, because there was other projects like happening. So I became the pastry chef for the group.
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15:09Renata Ameni:Calm today. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla? Smooth caramel, maybe. Or a white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. So when did you first start hearing about Birdie as a project?
15:35Evan Kleiman:Well, actually, it started in during the pandemic. everyone was trying to, like, I don't know, do what they can, right? Figure it out. Figure it. And I started doing, I started to do this breakfast boxes. We were at Crown Shy and I started doing breakfast boxes. And, you know, everyone was bored and so people were buying. It was, like, kind of successful. Did they come and pick it up at their restaurant or would get delivered? They would have to come and pick it up at the restaurant. Actually, we were delivering some, but it was mostly pick up at the restaurant. Yeah. And then it was like very successful and James and I were like, oh, maybe when they open a bakery, maybe when they would open a bakery.
16:16Evan Kleiman:We actually talked a lot more about opening an ice cream shop because the ice creams at Crunchyrie became popular and one of my favorite things to do. But then, yeah, let's open a bakery one day. And then this was like 2020 and then four years had passed. And then one day I'm like, chef, where is my bakery? You were getting bored. I'm like, yeah, I'm like, where's my bakery? Let's go. And it was like, it was funny because it's like, okay, Renata, there is this, the Domino Sugar building, people had reached out to us to see if you wanted to do anything there. And then he's like, actually, we have this place that maybe we can go look at.
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17:01Evan Kleiman:And we did the week after. And the place was beautiful. and I think like two weeks after that the deal was like signed. Wow. Yeah and Chef James he wasn't even in town I kind of went like signed the deal and he comes back he's like Renata what happened? I leave town I come back you have a bakery. Yeah. So that's pretty much kind of like how it started.
17:26Renata Ameni:Yeah and it is such a special location not only because it's on the waterfront in Williamsburg it's so beautiful but also the Domino Sugar Factory used to be one of the biggest sugar factories in the country. It feels very fitting to have a bakery there.
17:38Evan Kleiman:Yeah, it is. It is so fitting. And to this day, sometimes I'm like, oh, I can't believe I actually have a bakery in this building. Right. Because when I'm there every day, I become like, Jay, that's just the place that I work. Right. But sometimes when you are like at the bridge, you're like driving and then you see the building and you're like, oh, my God, holy shit. That's where I. Yeah. That's where I work.
18:00Renata Ameni:Oh, I wonder what's there. Oh, it's my bakery. Exactly.
18:04Evan Kleiman:And they did such a good job with that building, keeping historic, but inside it's beautiful. It's all glass.
18:13Renata Ameni:Yeah, it's very contemporary.
18:15Evan Kleiman:Yeah, it's very contemporary inside, but the outside it's still the cap as well.
18:20Renata Ameni:Yeah, it feels fitting to the pastry menu and the kind of food menu as well. But I'm wondering if you could speak to what was your early vision for what the food would be like at Birdie? Are there any menu items that you think really kind of showcase that?
18:35Evan Kleiman:I wanted to make things that felt like comforting and like flavors that are like very like familiar. And I've kind of always been like this with my desserts. I'm not super adventurous in terms of like flavor. You know, you're never going to see me making like a beet dessert. No, it's just not me. I don't think I'm like creative enough to make something with like something with unusual ingredients and make it like super good. I'm more like vanilla and caramel. But the execution and the technique in the package. Yes, that's a little bit more like that. And I wanted to make things that people really like to eat and it's comforting, but that looked really nice and like and perfect.
19:25Evan Kleiman:That's the Michelin star experience that I had. Yeah, and they do look perfect.
19:32Renata Ameni:Like you brought a pastry box in here today, which was very kind of you. And when you opened it, I was scared to break into anything. And I've seen these pastries before, but still, every single one, it looks like a cartoon of what a croissant would look like.
19:46Evan Kleiman:Thank you. That's the goal. But hopefully they taste good, too. Yeah, no, I mean, obviously they taste even better.
19:53Renata Ameni:They taste even better, but you look at it and you know, okay, someone has put a lot of care into this and the technique must be really strong to have it be so perfect and consistent as well.
20:07Evan Kleiman:Yeah.
20:08Renata Ameni:And there's also not just the pastry case, but a whole kind of food program. Can you speak to that?
20:13Evan Kleiman:We do. We have a bunch of, like, sandwiches. We have salads. And I, honestly, I cannot take really a lot of credit for that. So, Justin, I had a really good friend, and he worked at Kent Hospitality for, like, since the beginning. We worked together since the beginning. He was the culinary director as was opening birdie. I'm like, Justin, can you help me with this? And he's, like, he's pretty incredible. He's really creative. And then we created kind of like together. I make the bread and he came up with the feeling. What goes in between the bread. What goes in between it. So it was really like a collaboration.
20:56Evan Kleiman:And I think one of our most popular items is the chicken milanese sandwich and the tuna melt too.
21:05Renata Ameni:I love a tuna melt. What is the breakdown of this tuna melt? What kind of cheese is it?
21:10Evan Kleiman:It was American cheese, but then it's actually mozzarella. Oh. Now, yeah. I think that it wasn't like melty like enough, you know. He played around with that a little bit. What kind of bread is it on? It's a croissant. That it's a round croissant. And then the tuna salad. And then it's just mozzarella. Yeah. We put mozzarella on the plancha. So it's kind of crispy on one side and melty on the other side. Oh, I'm so mad I haven't had this yet. That sounds like a really good tuna melt. Yeah, it's really good. I really like tuna melts. I think those are like, oh, we have the bacon, egg, and cheese too, which is in a Parker house bun.
21:52Evan Kleiman:All the breads are like made in house. Yeah.
21:55Renata Ameni:These are some of the kind of most popular savory kind of sandwich items. Do you have a sense of which pastries are the most popular?
22:03Evan Kleiman:Basically, I feel like the churros and the banana cinnamon bun.
22:07Renata Ameni:What about the churros do you think is special?
22:11Evan Kleiman:Okay, the churros, honestly, it was by accident that that happened. We were making, in the very beginning, I think it was like our fourth day, we were making the croissant roll for the tuna melt. And it came out not good at all. It was our fourth day. We had no idea what we were doing. Right. And then my sous chef, Serafina, she's like, oh, maybe we should toss it in cinnamon sugar. I'm like, Seraphine, this looks horrible. You know, like me, I want it to be everything like really perfect. She's like, let's toss in cinnamon sugar. I'm like, okay, sure. And I'm like, well, let's put, because in Brazil, the churros that we eat, they're filled with doce de leche.
22:51Evan Kleiman:Yeah. And then I'm like, well, let's put a doce de leche on top. And I'm like, we call it a churro croissant. It was like a one day only thing. And then it became so popular. Then we start like making it. And yeah, and then it became like it's the dulce de leche is, yeah, it's exactly like we have churros in Brazil.
23:14Renata Ameni:It's so good. And I have I've only had like maybe a Mexican style of churro before where you would like dip it in chocolate or it's like long and skinny. And the dulce de leche is such a just soul satisfying, like it's very rich and delicious. It's such a good combination.
23:32Evan Kleiman:combination yeah and then we try just put a little dollop like on top yeah i didn't want to fill or anything because it's just too much it would be hard too rich yeah the the banana in the morning bun or the dulce de leche i feel like i see these kind of little touches of brazil on the menu do
23:48Renata Ameni:you think there are there's that something you like to do often are there other um bakery items that kind of do that like i do actually there is the um there's a danish that it's uh cheese and guava vanish and i call it romeo and juliet for some reason in brazil we eat um like the guava
24:08Evan Kleiman:paste with with a slice of cheese yeah and it's like a dessert and for some reason it's called romeo and julieta which is romeo and juliet but it's a cute name yeah and then it's i only make those on on the weekends because i cannot get enough of the like the guava yeah but yeah that's also like very very popular i love guava cheese is like my favorite combination i think that is
24:36Renata Ameni:my favorite the favorite pastry that we make it must be hard to choose you're always making
24:41Evan Kleiman:pastries i i don't eat them because i know i get so sick of them because first when i when i'm working on something i just like i spend months you know like working on and i taste it like so much. And then by the end of it, when I finally like it, I'm like, okay, I'm done with this.
25:00Renata Ameni:You know, I know a lot of pastry chefs who say the same thing to me. It's something about working on something all day that you just can't actually get around to eating it after all of that.
25:09Evan Kleiman:Yeah, exactly. We're finally getting some really nice fruit here in New York for the summer.
25:14Renata Ameni:Are you planning any sort of seasonal specials, things like that?
25:17Evan Kleiman:I'm going to start to use the black plums now. They look really beautiful right now and they're pretty good. Peaches too, I'm going to make a trifle like a peach melba like play on the peach melba, like trifle. It's not going to be like a pastry like a viennose or anything. Right, it's like a plated dessert. Yeah, it's going to be in a little cup and then people can just spoon it up. It's good for like an afternoon. Sometimes you don't want to eat like a chocolate frisson in the middle of the afternoon. Yeah. Just want a little like sweet bite.
25:55Renata Ameni:I think it's always interesting, even what you said about the croissant. Sometimes people at a bakery mean something to just be a special, but then it gets a following and people keep asking for it. Like, how do you kind of balance having core items that are always on the menu versus new additions? Yeah.
26:12Evan Kleiman:Okay. So we probably have our kind of like five items that I always have to have. and you know like pretty much a birdie I can try whatever you know like I can try something and even like I talk to my sous chef say what would you like to do I'm like well let's try it and if it doesn't sell it doesn't sell we stop making it you know that's the that's the nice thing about being in a bakery it's you have more freedom than you have in a restaurant you know I feel like for me even though yeah like james always gave me like a lot of freedom i could pretty much do whatever i wanted but it's still like if it's a restaurant it's on the menu you cannot just like take something off the menu like no during the the day off right and then with pastries a little bit with the bakeries a little bit more different more flexibility more flexible yeah and uh and you know it's something that i've been noticing uh sometimes you have things that were really popular one example i had a cherry pistachio milk bread it was very very popular but uh i took it off the menu for during the fall in the winter and now in the spring i said let's bring it back because it was so popular and then it's back and it doesn't sell as much as like it used to before you know yeah people have moved on and the same thing we had like the praline caramel and people and then people are obsessed about it and they're like, when does it come back?
27:41Evan Kleiman:When does it come back? And it came back. And then people just like, it didn't sell as much as it used to. That was so interesting to me. Do you think their attention got directed to something else? Yes. There's like so much going on. Because after a month, they like forget. And then they just want to try like new things, especially because we have a lot of regulars. In the neighborhood? In the neighborhood, yes. A lot. A lot of people come there like every day. Wow. Yeah, so I have to have a good variety. And I have like 25 items. Yeah. And it always needs to be like rotating.
28:20Renata Ameni:That feels like it might be a change. I mean, I'm sure there were regulars at Crown Shy, but it's not necessarily a place you can go to every day in that same way.
28:29Evan Kleiman:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I feel like, I think most of the bakeries, it's a neighborhood. place, right? People go there and then they grab their, they have like their favorite coffee spot and they go every day and grab the bakery, the pastries. And it's a little, it's not easy to get to Birdie. The waterfront, it's like 20 minutes walk from all the trains. But if you like to bike, the bike path is right there. The bike path. And there's a ferry too. The ferry, the most romantic way to travel. Yeah, exactly. There's a ferry, yeah. And then the Domino Park is really nice. You can spend the entire afternoon there.
29:05Renata Ameni:Yeah, you can get all of your picnic supplies at Birdie and then walk over.
29:08Evan Kleiman:You can have breakfast at Birdie, spend some time at Domino Park and come back for lunch.
29:13Renata Ameni:Oh, that's perfect. I'm thinking about you talking about having to maybe, you know, tone down your style when you went from these kind of three-star places to Crown Shy and then also going to a bakery like Birdie. Obviously, you're doing really ambitious things, but was that also kind of a shift for you in terms of the style of food that you were doing?
29:34Evan Kleiman:Oh, they're very different. I'm not, I'm a baker now, but I wasn't a baker before. No, I was, it's different to be a baker and a pastry chef, right? And I actually, I still don't consider myself a baker because I don't make bread. I don't do, I don't make sourdough or like a baguette. It's not my, it's not my specialty, you know? And there's so many good ones in the city. And I'm like, you know what? I'm going to let the real bakers like do that. I'm going to focus on the vieux nazari and the cakes and the cookies. Yeah. But yes, it was definitely like very different because sometimes I'm so, I was so used to having like components, right, on a plate.
30:20Evan Kleiman:And then sometimes you wanted to put a lot of things like on top. And I started realizing I don't need that. Right. Like, you know.
30:26Renata Ameni:And people obviously dine in and this kind of peach trifle, for example, that's a plated dessert, basically, that someone can sit down and eat. But some of the things are being made to be taken away and like eat it in the park and it can't be so messy.
30:39Evan Kleiman:No, it's the way that I've always worked. I don't know. I think that's how I learned. I work with three ingredients. So when I come up with something, so I have the main ingredient and usually have like other two that complement. Yeah. You know, and it's all I try not to do more than that. So that's a good kind of way to navigate, because I imagine you probably have a lot of ideas of, you know, new flavors, especially at this moment in time in New York.
31:08Renata Ameni:There are so many bakeries that, you know, are doing really kind of like splashy, like collab, like two different kinds of pastries being like mashed together. You know, there's a lot of kind of noise. do you feel like having that kind of three ingredient approach gives you kind of clarity
31:26Evan Kleiman:or a focus yeah i'm i have a hard time like focusing uh i come okay look so i'm gonna do i don't know like a turkey croissant and then i'm like okay let's put turkey let's put cream cheese and like the scallion you know but then like my mind oh no why should i put this should i put that And then I have to focus now. I focus on these three ingredients and make it good. Otherwise, it would take me forever to come up with one pastry.
31:59Renata Ameni:And then the production time also, I guess, if you have a million ingredients going into something, it probably is not as streamlined as it could be. Yeah, absolutely. Are there any bakeries or maybe even pastry chefs at restaurants that you like going to that you find interesting or inspiring?
32:18Evan Kleiman:I mean, the bakery is in New York now. The bakery scene here, it's like ridiculous. It's ridiculously good. And it just keeps getting better. Yeah. I really like Libre a lot. I like the flavors. I like the things I like more simple. You know, I like that a lot. I do like La Partente F for bread. They have a really great baguette.
32:44Renata Ameni:I just had a the ham sandwich on the baguette that they do take away and it was a perfect ham
32:52Evan Kleiman:everything about it was great yeah the baguette is it's amazing so those are I think they're like my two favorite um yeah this is like in this in the city like right now but there's so many that I've never even had a chance to go yet right I mean that's the problem of having your own bakery is that you're probably busy there yeah exactly i'm also i was i'm curious about
33:16Renata Ameni:brazilian food if there's any places you like to eat brazilian food in the city
33:21Evan Kleiman:that's a tough one there is not a lot of like brazilian restaurants here i've heard this and
33:26Renata Ameni:i've heard that there are some good brazilian grocery stores in queens but they're also not the easiest to get to no it's still not it's it's it's you can find you know like but like
33:38Evan Kleiman:the staples but it's nothing like you can't you can't find a very specific like ingredient you know that's why the brazilian restaurant they're here it's more of uh like basic brazilian food the one that we eat like yeah like day to day which is amazing it's great i i'm so glad that we have them but you don't have restaurants that are like bringing things from the amazon or very specific Brazilian ingredients because it's just hard to import, you know? We can't even like import. Even like there's cheeses that I would love to get and we just, you know, we can't. Yeah. Just like, yeah, it's a shame.
34:20Evan Kleiman:Hopefully that's gonna start changing a little bit.
34:23Renata Ameni:Yeah, I think maybe looking back at how much bakeries have grown in the city, obviously logistics are really different when you're talking about getting these ingredients over, but hopefully over time that will get easier as well. Yeah, hopefully. That refresh you've been putting off until the right deal came along? It's here. Wayfair's Black Friday in July sale is happening now so you can finally get the style you've been waiting for for less. Get up to 80 % off area rugs and up to 60 % off outdoor and bedroom furniture. Shop Wayfair's huge selection of styles and find the piece to fit your style, budget, and space.
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36:12Evan Kleiman:Oh my God, that's so hard. I'm not very interested, honestly. I don't go out much.
36:17Renata Ameni:I mean, I've had a very interesting conversation with you, so I'm sure your answers are going to be great. Your favorite season for baking? Fall. Why fall?
36:28Evan Kleiman:It feels like a baking season. Yeah.
36:31Renata Ameni:Right?
36:31Evan Kleiman:For some reason.
36:32Renata Ameni:It's cozy. It's just cozy. Yeah. Okay. A Brazilian pastry or dessert that you think should be more widely known outside of Brazil? I mean, there's like, there's the brigadeiro.
36:45Evan Kleiman:It's my favorite like Brazilian dessert. It's this little chocolate ball. It's like fudgy and like with sprinkles, chocolate sprinkles around it. It's very simple, but it's also very nostalgic because it's something that you eat at kids' birthday parties. Yeah. But everybody loves it. So, yeah, I think that this should be, if I had to say, a Brazilian dessert. That's a good answer.
37:12Renata Ameni:Your favorite neighborhood for eating out and going to restaurants in New York?
37:18Evan Kleiman:Okay, I'm going to be really basic. but I like the, I live in the West Village, so I don't live like very much, you know, like I'd stay around like that area, but I feel like downtown, like the entire East Village, Greenwich Village, they have, there's something for like everyone. Yeah.
37:35Renata Ameni:And we have to defend the West Village because yes, some people think it's basic, but also a lot of non-basic people like yourself live there and that's valid. Well, I actually like love basic. Yeah. Are you in the Froyo line?
37:49Evan Kleiman:No, I'm not. I'm not in the Froyo lines. It's actually too much for me.
37:55Renata Ameni:But it is whenever I walk through. It doesn't matter the time of day. It doesn't matter the day of the week. There's always going to be a Froyo line.
38:03Evan Kleiman:Yeah, I feel like now it's the new thing. Yeah. Right. And it's okay. We'll have it happen. Yeah. I mean, it's good. It's delicious. Yeah. But yeah, it's like a cycle of new things in New York.
38:18Renata Ameni:a favorite restaurant or bakery that's outside of New York. It's not here.
38:23Evan Kleiman:Butter and crumble in San Francisco. Ooh, I've never been there. I mean, their stuff is like, there's always like a line and line and line, but their stuff is very like interesting and like, like beautiful too.
38:37Renata Ameni:An ingredient that you think more people should bake with?
38:40Evan Kleiman:I don't think people use pineapple as much as it should be.
38:45Renata Ameni:Yeah, I have never baked with pineapple. do you use the fresh or the canned no i don't like the can i like i like fresh but our pineapple
38:53Evan Kleiman:here is is not very good you know it's not but when you bake you know the stuff you can't you can always do like roasted by pineapple i love roasting fruit um so if you can roast a pineapple and i could see that being really good so even just like vanilla ice cream or something exactly vanilla ice cream and roasted pineapple is it's really delicious oh i love that yeah and the carrot cake that I make has pineapple in it.
39:16Renata Ameni:I like carrot cake with pineapple. Okay, your favorite occasion restaurant in New York, if you're going to go celebrate?
39:23Evan Kleiman:You know where I would go? To the Cheesecake Factory.
39:28Renata Ameni:Wow, do you like the Cheesecake Factory?
39:30Evan Kleiman:I love the Cheesecake Factory. And I feel like that's because it's a place that I can never, there's no Cheesecake Factory in New York. You know, It's like it's far and I never get to go. And the food is so good. It's so, I don't know. I love it. And their cheesecake is the best. Wow.
39:47Renata Ameni:I love this answer so much.
39:49Evan Kleiman:I don't know why I love the Cheesecake Factory. It's good. And I think it's really good. And it's a really good.
39:55Renata Ameni:And also, you know what? It's exactly what you expect it to be.
40:00Evan Kleiman:It's very consistent. And, you know, they make everything in-house. Really? Yeah. They make everything.
40:06Renata Ameni:Wow. I like their chocolate peanut butter cheesecake, but I do feel like I'm going to die after I eat all of it. Exactly.
40:13Evan Kleiman:And then the portions are so big and then I can take home. I can't eat Cheesecake Factory for like three days. And the bread, the brown bread that they have. It's so good. It's so good. And I tried making it and it was pretty close. Wow.
40:27Renata Ameni:There was an article in The Atlantic a couple of months ago about like looking for the best bread in America. Did you see this? No, I didn't. I'll send it to you. But Katie Weaver, who's a very funny writer, writes it. And she basically solicits all of these people who sent her what they think is the best bread in the country, the best free bread in the country. And she goes to all of them. And easily the one that people say the most is the brown bread from the Cheesecake Factory. And she goes there and eats it. And she goes, actually, like, this might be it. Yeah. And she's going to, like, you know, steakhouses.
40:57Renata Ameni:She's going to the grill. She's going everywhere. But it's the Cheesecake Factory.
41:00Evan Kleiman:Yeah, it is delicious.
41:02Renata Ameni:Okay, final question. Is a fictional food scene from a book or a movie or something made up that you wish you could eat in real life?
41:11Evan Kleiman:Okay, I don't know if I'm going to like this. It's not like a really food scene that I could eat. It's kind of a little bit of a cliche. You know that movie, Stranger Than Fiction? That you have that scene that Will Ferrell, he's kind of like having a thing with this baker. and then he brings flowers to her. But it's not like flowers, it's a flower. So it's like, holy flowers. So he comes in, he's like, I brought you flowers. And it's just so cute because it's just flowers for her to bake.
41:44Renata Ameni:Yeah, and you want that to happen to you.
41:50Evan Kleiman:They're just like so good. Four people that are like are bakers and pastry chefs that scene is like, oh my God, that's the cutest.
41:56Renata Ameni:Yeah, he sees me, he gets it.
41:57Evan Kleiman:He sees me, yeah, he gets me, yeah.
41:59Renata Ameni:Yeah, that's such a sweet answer. No one has said that before. So I appreciate the reminder to go watch that movie. And thank you for coming on the show. It's been so fun.
42:09Evan Kleiman:Of course. Thank you so much for having me.
42:15Renata Ameni:This is Taste is hosted and produced by Matt Rodbard and me, Eliza Abarbanel. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumber and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media Production and Development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergang Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skurzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.
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From the publisher
Renata Ameni is chef partner of Birdee, a bakery and all-day café on the Williamsburg waterfront. The Brazilian-born chef is a fine-dining veteran who worked at Eleven Madison Park and opened Crown Shy before hopping over to more casual territory. Today on the show, we talk about bridging the gap between different styles of restaurants, making singular pastries, and more.
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