815: Anthony Bourdain’s Life Was a Movie. Matt Johnson Directed It.

0:07Matt Johnson:You know what strikes me? Bourdain, half of his style is from this random guy in Provincetown who writes about food with such a folksy, immediate... That's so fascinating. And so I'm reading the book and I'm like, oh my God, I found the Rosetta Stone. Like, what the hell is this? This is TASTE. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard.

0:35Matt Johnson directed the films Blackberry and the DIY comedy Nirvana the Band the Show the Movie. Now he's taking on Anthony Bourdain. His new film Tony, out in August from A24, skips the traditional biopic format entirely, compressing three formative Provincetown summers from Kitchen Confidential into one transformative season for a 19-year-old pre-fame Bourdain. Johnson joins us to talk about adapting a book everyone already loves, directing Dominic Sessa away from doing an impression, and his love for the Canadian band Sloan. And before that, I share some recent restaurant visits, including stops at Tide Diner, Keen's, and Goosefeather.

1:18I hope you enjoy this episode.

1:24Clayton, what is up, man? How are you doing? Good, Matt. How are you? Good. You are both producing and recording this right now. I love it. Thank you. Let's see it. A man of two talents. Well, you're in Eliza's chair, and I felt like with this great conversation with Matt Johnson, I wanted to talk about restaurants. I've been out to a number of them, and really, you know, Tony's a chef, and this film has a lot of food scenes and is based in a restaurant. So how about we talk about some restaurants? Sounds great. I have three of them I want to talk about. The first is a visit I made recently to Thai Diner, which is one of my longtime favorite restaurants in New York.

2:02And I try to pop in a few times a year, if not more. And I hadn't had dinner there in a while. I'm usually there for breakfast, actually, and it's great breakfast. But I wanted to go over it. As a reminder, Thai Diner is from Anne Redding and Matt Danzer. They were behind Uncle Boone's, which earned a Michelin star in 2016. This restaurant has a Bib Gourmand, and it's, again, really, really one of my favorites. I'm going to start with the Bon Salad, which is kind of their signature salad. I posted it on Instagram, and I had two friends reach out and said, You had the salad? And I was like, I didn't realize the salad had so much play online.

2:39Oh. It's a viral salad, which I shouldn't say viral salad right now because of what's going on. No talk about viral salads in this studio. Well, this salad is very good. I mean, it's with, I think the big kicker of the white so different is it has a crown of crispy red curry rice. So it's got lots of pops in there, romaine, watercress, avocado, and this great, you know, Thai dressing. Fish sauce is in there. There's some sweetness. I love it. We had some grilled oysters, which I had never had there. And really Thai grilled oysters is really has, you know, a Namjim finishing. So it's like chili lime and fish sauce finishing over the grilled oysters.

3:21A terrific couple of other highlights. I mean, I'm always ordering the vegetables there. I love Morning Glory. I try to get that as much as I can when I see it at Chinese restaurants or Thai restaurants. And this one was so great. It had, you know, I think Morning Glory is also like a water, kind of like a water spinach. Someone asked me, one of my dining companions, what it was. And I was like stumped for a second. I was like, what is Morning Glory? Water spinach. And really, it's in the wok. It's really fast. It's got the wok hay going on. And I really enjoyed it. It's got a little bit of this turmeric broth going on in there in the sauce.

3:59And I love that. And then we had some green curry fried rice, which really, really good new dish. I really enjoyed that. I think this restaurant is such a great restaurant because of service. They always have really nice people working the floor who know the menu top to bottom, and it needs some explaining and really needs some suggestions because there's so many inviting little areas in it. And I just loved our server, this restaurant. Lots of lines. You can book it on Resi. And, you know, let's go. Like, we should go sometime. I'd love to. Let's do it. But you and I haven't really had a lunch because we've been recording so many episodes.

4:38Absolutely. All right. The next one up is Keene's. Keene's, man. Again, you can book it on Resi. I love it as an institution of New York. And as a reminder, it was founded in 1885 by a guy named Albert Keene who apparently really loved church warden pipes. So if you go to the dining room upstairs and you look up, there's 50 ,000 of these pipes on the ceiling. It's kind of amazing, actually. I'm not trying to be funny here. I don't know what they were smoking in it. Probably tobacco. Okay. Really, really good aesthetics and vibes there. The servers are lifers. You can just tell. And really, you go to Keen's for a couple things.

5:22You go there for the mutton. I did not have the mutton this time, but I've had it before. And it's quite good. but we really we had a few things we had some some raw oysters which you know again i'm i'm feeling oysters these year these days and um pretty pretty pretty classic you know minuet and you know cocktail sauce and do it do what you will shrimp cocktail pretty good wouldn't say it's my favorite but still we ordered it but really the steaks we went with sirloins and a steak sandwich and really um for lunch um we were dining there for lunch it's a great um spot to take out-of-towners because I think Keene's is one of those institutions in New York that you just can't beat that dining room and these steaks were cooked perfectly and to me there's a lot of steakhouses out there.

6:09I was actually just on another podcast called Put It In Your Mouth. What a title. Really nice show and they the hosts of the show have a steak club which I think is really sweet. It's five of them in this club, and every month they go to a different steakhouse in the city. And they have a sixth seat, and it's an open seat, and they invite somebody along. Did you get the coveted invite? I got the invite. I'm really, really happy that I did, and I'm going to take them up on it. Do you think it was a... Listen, I love eating with you. We eat together a lot. A lot, yeah. Do you think it was a courtesy invite as a guest on the podcast, or do you think they You really meant it because you can smell you're in the media.

6:51You're you're a reporter. You you you know when somebody's blowing blowing smoke up your church pipe or whatnot. The courtesy invite. They brought it up and then they didn't even miss a beat. And they said you should come. So there was no like me saying, oh, cool. How do you pick that six? Yeah. I wasn't trying to ask for that. You weren't hoping for the six seat. You were. Yeah, it was. It was seamless. So I'm going to report back about that meal wherever we end up going. I mean, they've been doing it, I think they said, over 25 they've been to. Wow. Now, do you know, did you get into this? Do they rank them?

7:29Do they have a spreadsheet? Yeah, they do. And they told me on the episode, and actually, I'm going to link to that episode. I rarely even link to other podcasts on our podcast because, you know, we're competitive. Yeah, of course. Just kidding. We actually do. And I'm going to link to it because it's a really fun convo and it's a pretty new show. So I want to, you know, you should check it out. But on the episode, we do talk about their ranking, I do believe. So I can't remember. But they'll give into a bunch. Okay. I have one more restaurant. And I made a return visit to Goose Feather in Tarrytown, New York.

8:00You can book it on Resi. It's a restaurant that has a bit of history to it. But mostly the name of the game here is Dale Tall Day. The name, the chef, the real inspiration of this restaurant is a chef that I absolutely love. I've known Dale a long time, like when he worked at Budokan and was on Top Chef. And that was probably, I'm going to say, 19, 20 years ago. He was the chef there and he had a restaurant in Brooklyn called Tall Day that was in Park Slope. I loved it. I think some of our listeners may remember Tall Day. And really, if you miss Tall Day, if you live in Brooklyn and you're like, man, I wish I had that restaurant, you should go to Goose Feather, which is a short ride on the Metro North up to Tarrytown.

8:44Or if you have a car, you can take a quick trip up there. And it's a cool place because it's in this mansion. So he's got this space. It's called the King Mansion at Tarrytown House Estate. And it is the former home of Washington Irving of Sleepy Hollow fame. So it's got these old bones. But then Dale decided, you know, let's add some really cool modern art to it. And there's pops of color everywhere. And there's lots of Chinese art. and really an aesthetic that it's like a push and a pull between old and new. And I love the vibe in there. And the restaurant concept and his cooking has been kind of all over the spectrum.

9:24But this is really Hong Kong-style Cantonese is really the core here. There's dim sum and noodles and Chinese barbecue. It's really, really good. And I have so many highlights I want to go over because I really enjoyed my meal. And really, it's such an underrated place. It hasn't been on the beards in a number of years to my dismay because I think this should be recognized, at least longlisted. And, I mean, it's packed. People like it. But, like, it's just a little outside of the city. It doesn't get as much press. So I really like it. I talked about this on Three Things maybe a couple years ago, and it still is one of my favorite salads.

10:02And it is not with leafy greens, so we don't have to worry. It's a stretch to tell a shaved snow pea salad. And it's so terrific. It's got this hunk of strachetella in the middle, and it's got these really nice knife cuts on the snow peas. And kind of the vibe is tamarind and Thai chili, and there's like really – there's herbs in there. It's such a great salad. We had wok charred greens again, you know. Got to get your vegetables, and he does them really, really well. And lots of wok hay and lots of like kind of those caramely notes that you love in like a wok vegetable. And he did these little corn ribs, these sweet summer corn ribs with a five spice and brown butter labneh.

10:45It's just like thinking all over the place. Like he's got, obviously it's Cantonese at its core, but he's taking inspiration from all over Europe. And I love it. He has these great scallion pancakes, his crab rangoon style with lump crab and whipped marscapone. And it's really cool to see rangoon in pancake form. That sounds really good. Yeah, man. It was a really good dish. What else? Other highlights. He had salmon tartare over crispy rice, which was really, you know, as advertised, like crispy rice plus raw fish. Like, let's go. A wild mushroom rice noodle with a tamarind, black bean, and hazelnut.

11:28Love that. And it's just like top to bottom. Like, there were really, like, very few skips. I really also enjoyed the crab rice, which is kind of one of his signatures. I think he did it at Tall Day. And it's definitely with this jalapeno aioli and tobiko in it. And it's really pretty on the plate and really I highly recommend it. And for the protein, we only had one. It was a char siu Berkshire pork belly with black cherries and toasted coconut and Chinese mustard. So he's really thinking, again, Cantonese at the core, but inspiration from all over. Really great vibe. And the cool thing about Goose Feather is you can dine inside and see this cool art, or you can dine outside.

12:10And they have this really big lawn, and you can dine if the weather is nice, under the stars. And it's really a great restaurant. I'm always so happy to visit Goose Feather. And it's in Tarrytown? Yeah, Tarrytown, New York. What brought you out to Tarrytown? We were meeting up with some friends. I drove over from my home. It wasn't that far of a drive. And listen, I haven't spent too much time in Tarrytown. It seems like a lovely town. It's around the Hudson River. Yeah, it's a nice part of Westchester. Great. Is there a lot of restaurants around there? Or is this sort of one of the bright, shining stars?

12:50Listen, Clayton, are you suggesting a Taste Travels Westchester? Are you saying that we go and find the spots? because I know they are there. Yeah, I mean, that was what I was alluding to. I know. Yeah, you sniffed that out pretty quickly. I know they're there. I haven't spent too much time. I've been to Katona a bit, and there's some nice restaurants there. Westchester's cool. We are working on, and I don't want to spoil it, but we have a Taste Travels coming out next week, and we're staying a little closer to home. So that's all I'm going to say. It's a city that I really love. I've talked about it a lot on the show, so a little teaser there.

13:23We're working on it in the studio, It's going to be really, it's a great episode. Matt, thanks for sharing some recent restaurant visits with me. It's always great to catch up with you, Clayton.

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14:52Matt Johnson:storm zero sugar 200 milligrams of caffeine and immunity support storm energy for life this episode is brought to you by facebook so you were scrolling on marketplace and there it was the bike you'd been searching for you sent a message and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew, well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for. From a browse to a bike ride, this summer, find more on Facebook. Matt Johnson, welcome to SIS. It's really nice to meet you.

15:32How are you doing?

15:33Matt Johnson:I'm great. It's nice to meet you too. We're talking about Whitby, Ontario. From the jump, are you a fan of Sloan? Huge, well I mean Sloan and Chris Murphy really starred in the television show I made with my friends in 2015 to 2018, Nirvana the Band the Show And Murphy as a character in Toronto is one of the few celebrities you will see when you grew up there at the time that I did And later on my friend Jay McCarroll I think played in bands with him but Sloan is a legendary Canadian band. They're one of those bands that when you grow up in Ontario, you think, oh my gosh, these people are world famous.

16:13Matt Johnson:Like everybody knows them, just like the Tragically Hip or any number of Canadian bands. Then you penetrate the border and you realize, oh, I mean, I think that Money City Maniacs did well in the United States, but nothing like in Ontario. I'm like a Pretty Together guy, like the Jay Ferguson album. Oh, so you're a real fan. Yeah, I've seen them. I'm a huge fan, but we're not here to talk about that. You know what song I really love by them? Except for one verse I always think is awkward. But The Other Man. The Other Man, that's from Together. I think this song is so beautiful. It's so pretty.

16:44Matt Johnson:But then there's that lyric that says, nature will abhor me. And I was like, I don't know about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's a masterpiece. It's a masterpiece. I think it's written about Feist. Yeah, it's definitely my favorite album. So when you're in New York, where do you like to dine out? I look. So as soon as I started making this movie, I realized, oh, I need to eat at all of the spots that Anthony Bourdain went to. And so the ones that are still around, I try to go to as many as I can. And it's so funny. I really should know the name of this restaurant. But there was a place that Bourdain went to constantly that I've now gone to twice where they serve mutton.

17:22Matt Johnson:And it's all these old Keens. Yeah, this place is unbelievable. But I also love the hamburger at Lord's. Have you eaten this? Yeah, it's great. Oh, you have? Oh, I know the burger, dude. I'm going to tell you a story about this. I get into the place and I sit down at 530 because I hear that they only make 12 of these things. Okay. So I sit down and right away, within about three minutes of me literally sitting down, a guy flustered, sweating, runs over to me. And he looks at me and goes, are you having the hamburger? And I look at him and I go, yeah, I think so. And he goes, just one? And I go, no.

17:59Matt Johnson:Yeah, yeah. And he goes, great. And then he runs away. And he's not dressed like a waiter. He works there, but his job seems to be emergency seeing if people are getting the burgers. Anyway, I order the hamburger. Were you with one of the actors? No, I wasn't. You were like low key. Yeah. Well, yes. You're right. You're right. That's a great distinction because then they would have been treating me differently. I order the hamburger. I as i'm waiting for the hamburger two guys beside me I think from the financial district I've got the same burger. They take a bite of it The one guy turns to the other guy and he says I think this is the best hamburger i've ever had in my life And i'm like it can't be that good I take a bite of my hamburger and the person i'm having dinner with I say I think this is the best hamburger i've had in my life Like uh disconnected from that and then the guy beside me taps me and I turn he's this old guy And he goes, hey, what do you think of this hamburger?

18:51Matt Johnson:And I said, I think it's amazing. And he says, I think it's the best hamburger I've ever had in my life. So all three of us said the exact same thing, unconnected to one another. And it's just a hamburger, a slice of cheese, and I think, what, some onions? I think it's a very austere burger. I think it's just the quality of the beef and definitely cooking it correctly. That's a beautiful term for it. It's very Spartan. It's very Spartan. Okay, so the big creative decision you made was this time period in Tony's life. You know, it depends how you view that. But yes, I'll follow your train of thought.

19:19Matt Johnson:Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The flaw logic of me. Okay. So, I mean, I think it's not, you can do Cradle to the Grave. That's challenging. But you could have expanded it outside of this three, compressed three-year window that you based it on. I have a secret. Please share. And that it really is. It's expanded. What we did was we basically took Anthony Bourdain from age 15 to about age 26. Yeah, yeah. And so I'm stealing details from way before this summer and way after. So I don't mean to elude your question, but... No, please do. Dodge it. But Antonio Banderas is kind of playing an ersatz version of his first big boss, Bigfoot.

20:02Matt Johnson:I'm not sure if you know... Yeah, of course. Yeah. And so a lot of the biographical information around that character, who is a major influence on Bourdain. Reading Bourdain, you realize that there was these three or four role models that were so central to him that nobody else really comes close. And this is self-report. This is him talking about his own life. But I realized that if we are going to isolate this story to this one summer, which obviously is so foundational to him, we are going to need to at least have some rhyming characters with the five years before and the five years after. I mean, you could have had Gladys and Pierre's section be very long.

20:42Because, like, that's a crazy – I mean, I knew Tony, like, going back to 2000 and knew him pretty well. Oh, so you knew everything. Yeah, right. Oh, yeah, yeah. I knew Tony.

20:50Matt Johnson:There's a whole movie there about him and his mother, in my opinion. Yeah, and his mother and you really captured it in the three minutes of time. Well, that's all Dagmara. It was such a challenging role in that this character appears only in two, three scenes. But you need to somehow not only have those scenes set up the entire movie, but you need to realize – well, actually, I don't want to give away the movie. Yeah, don't give away the movie. We don't like to do that. It's a great movie, by the way, and I support your work. I feel like Tony hated sentiment. You know, this was part of his brand, but also privately.

21:26He just suffered no fools when it came to that. So how would he have viewed your approach to it? I mean, because like on camera, of course, he hated everything that was biopic-y. But then like privately, he respected our tours and he probably would have seen BlackBerry or would have seen it or maybe in that reality would have enjoyed your work.

21:47Matt Johnson:Well, you know what? I mean, we certainly are assuming. I had never thought about that, the BlackBerry connection and what his particular interest because he's such a cinephile. He really is, yeah. And his cinephilia actually was one of the major inspirations for the film and shooting the film the way that we shot it. But I am cautious about wading into the waters of my interpretation of his interpretation of this movie. So I have no idea, but I'll take your point about sentimentality, which I also found in the text that a kind of allergy to sentimentality. But it extended also to, it's so odd because he would be, I would think, almost openly pretentious about food, saying that food itself could be bigger than what it was, like literally adding pretense to it.

22:43Matt Johnson:And yet in story drama and especially the way people would present their own brands, that he found sort of disgusting. And I wonder if that comes from the, I'll call it the privilege of making it in your 40s, where you have kind of gone through the slog of life where you thought, well, it's never going to happen to me. And so I'll be damned if I'm going to sacrifice my persona. Yeah. You know, I'm not going to trespass against my soul. I mean, yeah, if you read the unauthorized biography too, you know, he wanted to be famous in the 20s and 30s. That text is very telling. Oh, deeply. Of course, that's what the movie is about.

23:24Matt Johnson:Yeah. I mean, you really followed. I felt like you clearly had read that because and that's obviously off the family's version of the story, too. So I think. Did you like that unauthorized biography? I absolutely love it. So did I. Can we go off? Can we go off mic about it? Because like I have a lot of I mean, I listen, I'm a little close to the story, but I feel. Well, yes, I will go off mic with this one. But I think that it should be read. I think that came out during the pandemic and definitely for your purposes, it was probably pretty important. Oh, it was a central text. Yeah, yeah, yeah.