819: Confessions of a Cookbook Literary Agent with Sally Ekus

24:45So there's the big shiny advance and that's great. But when you've been writing, when you've been agenting books for as long as the agency has and I have, the advance is almost, I mean, it's incredibly important, but it's all the other stuff that is the next three years of our life together. And that advance is what it says. It's truly the budget that you need to create the book. I'm going to set the record straight. Actually, all three of my books did sell on first submission, so I'm clean sheet there. I was fired from a project, though. Ooh. Can you talk about that? Early in my career. I'm not going to say with the agent.

25:18Yeah. But why? It was early in my career. I just sold Koreatown and I was working on a second book. I'd worked on the proposal. It was really good. And I just think the agent with the person I was collaborating with. And like this was a collaboration. Dookie and I and Dan Holzman and I did co-authorship. And that's my style typically. I don't really with credit with people. It's just my. And I think this lesson is like, oh, I'll never do with credits. Well, that's other Inside Baseball that we should clarify. There's with and and. Totally. And the nuances of which, like, in some ways matter a lot and some ways don't matter at all, depending on, like, what the goals of the collaboration are.

25:56And so that's really important to establish at the beginning. And I think the proposal is such a good barometer for how you work with the co and whatever it is. So, you know, if you're removed from the project, it's better to know at the proposal stage. I agree. I think the book ended up being published and won some awards. It's good for them. I thought I wrote a better proposal. So good for me. Painful, though. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. It's just to be booted from a project, especially after you invest a lot of time. Absolutely. You don't really get paid a lot. It's part of the game, though. And there's so much rejection in this industry.

26:28Talk a little bit about coaching your clients and just talking with them, because I think any author has had some form of rejection. Oh, it's part of the process. Yeah. When this might be unique to my representation, but when that first pass comes in, when we're out on sub, even for books that go to auction, in every project, there's going to be a pass. No, there's not a case in 17 years of agenting where every single house that I submitted to was interested. Yeah. And so that first pass comes in. I send a congratulation notes to my client and I say, here's the pass. Congratulations. You're on the way to being published.

27:01I love that. Every single time. That's like a really, really important message to send. Yeah. Because you start getting these forwards of these passes. Yes. And, you know, it can be in the 15 to 20 sometimes. Oh, yeah. And similar to how do you make decisions best? I ask, how do you like to receive feedback? Yeah. So do you want me to send all these emails along? Do you want me to consolidate them and summarize? Do you want to just know when there's interest? If there's specific and detailed feedback from, you know, a handful of editors, then that tells us There might be something to tweak here, revise or talk about.

27:36And that is also incredibly informative. And I have incredible clients. They receive feedback fairly easily and are looking to publish their books. So they know this is part of the process. And if there's difficult conversations to have, we have them. Like, I mean, trust and communication are pillars of the agent author relationship. Okay, so the deal is done. There's a direct deposit for first payment and the author is on their way. Like many months later, yes. Yeah, many months later, you've got to go through contracts. But the author is on their way. Yeah. And this is really the most difficult part, I think.

28:14And I talk to authors all the time off the record. I make calls because I think there's a lot of agency that the author is given. I think the best publishers allow their authors to cook, truly. Like really allow them to write the book that they've always wanted to write. They don't step in. They don't throw elbows. And like that's terrifying, particularly for a first time author who's never had to deal with the 75 ,000 word manuscript deadline. So you're saying it's terrifying to then be given like, yeah, go do the creative thing you love. And without much guardrails. And in fact, you know, maybe go away for 10 months and we don't need to talk again.

28:51Most of my clients are kind of talkers. They do like a touch point and I try to build in emotional reassurance checkpoints with the authors and their editors. And when I don't hear for a while, my spidey sentence goes up and I'm like, I'm just going to touch base with everyone because no news is never good news. Absolutely not in publishing. Absolutely not. Transparency and communication is paramount. Yeah. And I think like, you know, falling into the game of like having a few sample chapters submitted. Well, that's why the better the proposal, the better the book deal, and also the more comfortable you will be throughout this process.

29:24If you want to change a table of contents, you want to change whatever, that's fine and very possible. But if you have a great proposal, we can always come back to that as the anchor. It's such a key point, Sally. Thank you for bringing that up. The proposal is truly the book. Totally. And you're doing all that hard work. Sometimes it takes a year to write the proposal. And that's the reason is that this is part of the book writing process. And if you write that crack proposal with a great TOC and like some sample chapters that are actually publishable, you're already 30 % there in many ways. Oh, yeah.

30:01I have clients that I think that creative freedom can be confusing. And also, they're like, wait, it's really this? And I'm like, yeah, write the proposal you want. I can help guide you if it's not saleable or we want to add some language in. But of course, we're open to the publisher's collaboration. But ultimately, you benefit, you're giving your future self a gift by writing a really comprehensive proposal. How do you work with your clients when they think about the perceived gravity of publishing a book like, say, Penguin Random House? And I say perceived gravity with all respect. I walked in this building every day with immense pride and I love working here at Penguin Random House.

30:39I think it definitely can make authors extremely intimidated thinking that this keystroke is going to be in this book and it'll be on the shelves forever. It's permanent. And that I don't think is necessarily the best mindset because there's a lot of books. You can get people to read like 5 % of your cookbook. You've won. Totally. Well, I think the statistic is people cook an average of three recipes per book. Probably not the taste listeners. They cook more for sure. No, definitely agree. But if you just ask a random friend, they're buying the books for a different reason. They're appreciating them for more than the recipes.

31:13The recipes need to be tight for sure. Yes. But there's magic in there. I mean, it's a creative medium. And I don't know. I think my clients understand that gravitas. And also, and again, this might be because I'm not based in the epicenter of New York publishing. I'm in Western Massachusetts where we have parking and trees and space. And so I'm working with clients that are really looking for a breadth of publishing experience. And I work outside of the big five publishers too. I sell to the big five and I also sell to independent houses and I do small deals or I do medium deals. And I look for I say this to clients when I'm scouting and when I'm and when I'm offering representation, I look for the best deal.

32:06And to me, that is equal parts financial. You can say yes to this and fit. You're excited to work with this publishing partner and they're excited to work with you. And I do quirky, small niche projects all the time. That's not going to be a six figure with a big five because the author has expectations that match what I think the market and the industry will yield. And I'm incredibly lucky to have taken on ownership and then merged a legacy of Backlist. And so I have the privilege of taking on maybe a smaller deal financially to bring that book and that concept to market. And not all agents are in that position.

32:46Rare. I was going to say it's rare. Your POV is very, very atypical for agents. I know, which is why I feel so strongly about sharing it. Yeah. And understand that it is not the masses. And I'm not looking to, I'm just looking to add another perspective because there's so much conversation about the big five. There's so much conversation about huge following, big numbers, huge audience, massive advance. And that is certainly there. And I play in that pond. I love doing the backstroke in that pond. And also I'm like swimming in streams over here and it's cool and it is nice. Nice metaphor. Thank you.

33:20Just made that up. You're good. You're good. You're good with those. Let's talk about the transparency element of the sub stack. Like, no. Not so secret agent. I mean, it's a great title. And really, you're adamant that you're kind of pushing back against this idea of gatekeeping. Yeah. Similarly to what we've been talking about, there's like a brand of the industry as gatekeeping. And I want to offer another perspective into what gatekeeping can be because there should be some gatekeeping, right? We need people to be an expert in the industry, evaluate things. and my version of gatekeeping is offering information to the access that people need to be in this space because what they do with it is what matters right I can give you all the information on how to write a book proposal how I sign clients how to contact me but it's what you do with it that's gonna that's gonna stand out to me and so I I'm sort of like you know trying to rebrand gatekeeping as abundancy and community and information sharing yeah and I think the best agents like yourself are saying that these tools are pretty basic.

34:31You have to be the one to dig deep for the ideas and the execution. Right. Because it's still your creativity. It's your passion. It's your expertise. And that's what's so awesome. I've never pitched a new idea, very rarely. What I'm pitched is somebody's perspective or their lived experience in a way And I'm just like, oh, I want to know more about that. And in fact, not only do I want to know more, but I can see that there's a market for this. And that's where I can provide the liaison and the matchmaking and the connecting. Big question. What are you looking for in terms of authors and books and topics?

35:07And what aren't you looking for? I think it's very clear that publishers are not buying all kinds of books right now. There are certain books that publishers are looking for and certain books that maybe have been overpublished and they're looking for less of? Yeah, because it's such a data-backed time, it's a little bit like in every editor meeting, I'm always asking, what are you looking for? And then my job is to go get it, you know? So I'm very familiar with that question. And I have a really full client list. So I'm not actually looking to fill a lot of what is being asked of in the industry because it's hyper-specific.

35:44It's really data-backed, super trend. So if I I have a client that can write about it. Like last year, we had a publishing house ask for a book on apres bites and drinks. And one of my clients, Maureen Piotrowski, the book is coming out this fall. You know, that was something that was a category and a concept. And she's a lifestyle expert. She's been on the Today Show like a million times. She does fabulous cocktails and mocktails. So it's like she'd be perfect. She's in my roster. Great. That's a no brainer. But really, at this point, I'm looking for the people. The people that teach me something, techniques, cuisines, food, I'm a savory person.

36:23So if you hit me with something spicy and savory, I'm in. If you make me laugh in a proposal or in a query, I'm definitely interested. And if somehow I make it to the end of your query and through the first 10 pages of your proposal without looking at my phone or my email, I'm also interested. Great acid test. I think humor really plays well. Totally. On the page because these are serious topics and I think some potential authors maybe kind of lean into the serious side of it and don't think about the readers. And humor can work. There's been a lot of trauma in the past, you know, few decades.

36:57So it's like, we can get to that and a great way to heal that is through food. Great point. But if you like bring me in with laughter, I think we're probably gonna have a better time at the table. Great point. Great point. So I ask booksellers this all the time and have had many on the show. and I want to ask you, you know, you're looking through, you know, Kitchen Arts and Letters or Omnivore or wherever you may be going and you're looking around. Is there a book that you just wish was published? You know, I wish I had more brain space to, I wish I had the luxury of thinking about that more. Yeah.

37:32I, I don't know. There's, there's some books that I. I know you're being diplomatic and it's part of your job. I would just say, like, is there a underserved cuisine region, dietary lifestyle that you think has a lot of potential and maybe is being underpublished when you look at an indie shop? OK, great, great reframe. Reframe. Couple things. Personally, I've been through some crazy health stuff in my life. I'm a childhood cancer survivor, which has gifted me with a not by choice restricted diet of a lot of the world's delicious things. I'm glad you're okay. Thank you. And so though the audience is niche for special diets and there's been a bunch of books on every diet, there's always space for the innovation around like gut health and restricted diet books.

38:33And I use the word diet for like medical reasons, not weight loss reasons. On the cuisine and culture side, I mean, I am endlessly pitched books that I think deserve to be published in cookbook form to bring that medium to the forefront of their cuisine and culture. I mean, pick a country and break it up by region. Yeah. Especially. And I think some of that is coming. And we've had some of it, too. And Koreatown is a great example of paving the way for a lot of that. Like you have to start big and broad. And at the time you were told it's small and niche, but now that's big and broad and it's opened up more opportunity for other cuisines.

39:17And so I'm always wrestling when I get queries about, you know, a specific part of Africa or the Caribbean or Asia. How do we frame this sense, this place geographically in the context that the industry needs? So now, because it's so data driven, we can look at population size. We can look at consumer behavior. We can look at other products. You know, you just were talking to Dan from the from Fancy Food Show. Like now I'm able to pull consumer reports and trend reports to create a business reason to invest in these stories and these these places. And that to me is a very exciting time and also high pressure.

40:06You know, when we're talking about I'm going through this experience now with titling a project and making sure that it is very explicit to the consumer who doesn't know exactly what this book is about, that it's a cookbook and that, you know, we're we're needing it to fit on that thumbnail and also honors that sense of place and where that author is coming from. And that's a very exciting time to be in. So challenging. Weaving answer to your question. A great answer is challenging when you say you want sales, but you want to honor the cuisine. Yeah. I mean, that's what no one wants watered down.

40:38Right. Like, especially when you're talking about family heritage. Right. Nationality, et cetera. You just can't water it down. But sometimes the publishing side needs to frame in a way that's more accessible. Yes. And that's always the trick. Do you turn down influencers, meaning you are pitched a potential client with, you know, a six figure social following and you're just like, sorry. Often. Yeah. Why? Why? A couple of reasons. I mean, I do have clients that have very large social followings and might be first and foremost considered an influencer. And I'm endlessly pitched, usually from a manager who doesn't know book publishing at all, with all respect to the managers that I love working with.

41:22you know I'll get pitches like I have a client they have they have a hundred they have 1.5 million followers and they're ready to do a book and I'm just like I don't know what to do with it I don't care I mean I'm glad that they're contributing to the growing interest in the culinary space and not everyone needs to write a cookbook and writing a cookbook is really hard and a ton of work and I work with authors who are looking to often write more than one book and an influencer doing a cookbook sometimes is a really strategic extension of their career and their brand and their message, and that's great.

41:58And I'm not the agent that typically represents all the influencers. Yeah, yeah. And I think we love many of the influencer books, especially we publish here at Crown. I think they do an amazing job, you know, working with agents to find the right ones, making them really excellent books and being very special. But a lot of times in the social media world, the influencer world, you know, the results are pretty instantaneous. Yes. And that mindset just does not flow in our world. I said this just the other day, you know, when you're working in an influencer-based pace and world, the timeline and the reciprocal relationship with your followers is so different than book publishing.

42:40And so there's a certain type of influencer that's looking to also experience the book publishing timeline and the effort that goes into laying the ground work for a pre-order campaign and going out and hustling that book years later. And, you know, we talked a little bit before we got on about my love for the backlist. And I am curious of the influencer books that have come out in the past five years and are coming out in the next five years, how many of those are going to be backlist titles? And is that because of the author or is it because of the topic? Yep. TBD. Yeah. And to clarify, backlist means it's not in the current seasons, so typically not in the current year.

43:18So books have been published 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 20, 30 years ago. And ones that still have sales velocity that keep them in print, meaning they're not shelved to the remainder pile and taken off Amazon, et cetera, and taken out of shelves. Backlist is super key. I think we have such a heritage here at Crown with our backlist and so many authors who have published a book and then wait five years and publish the second one. And then, hey, that first one's pretty good, too. I love to see that in the industry. Yeah. A second book can really help the first book have another spike. The first book often sells better than the second book.

43:55And again, because I've taken over and I was Lisa's succession plan for the agency, I have royalty statements and historical knowledge about literally thousands of book titles and concepts. And so, you know, from a 50 ,000 foot view, I can look and see what is that cycle of this concept or this thing in the zeitgeist that's coming back. And that's what's really fun. And so I'm all about that backlist. Is there a client that you just regret passing on? Well, you obviously. All right. Me excluded. Regret is a hard word. There are a couple of people that I now have become more friendly with because they didn't pick me as their agent.

44:41Abina Anam-Sama, who's amazing. And she is so she's an amazing hands with Adriana Stamolo, who's another really awesome cookbook agent. I I had the opportunity to sort of interview with Randy Lau from and he's bringing an incredible book to fruition with his family. And that just that really speaks to me. And he has a huge audience. So that's kind of best case scenario. You know, so there's there's some ones that sort of got away. But now I get to just like be friends with them, which is honestly so much less stressful. Yeah. Yeah. The friendship can kind of become professional when you start when you sign on that dotted line.

45:22Yeah. For representation. I think you're right. Like it's nice to be friends and not client. Yeah. And because of our history in the industry and the newsletter, I get to have all these other touch points with people. So when I'm not able to formally represent someone, I still get to be in their world and vice versa. And that's really fun for me. Well, I love that you're on Substack and you're active and you have a great following because it really relates to potential authors. I know we in this building, we obviously look at Instagram and TikTok and all those metrics for insights, but we also look at paid community.

45:57Oh, yeah. The fact that you're part of this community gives you a little bit of... I've never been in a cool club where people are doing stuff and that's what Substack makes you feel like. You are cool. You're really cool. And honestly, how do you think about potential authors launching their sub stack? Because of my newsletter, I understand a dashboard for the first time. And so when I'm talking to clients about if they're thinking about moving a sub stack, I feel like I can have a pretty educated conversation with them about it. And we can tinker with things in a way that I've never been able to speak to before.

46:29So we're looking at, you know, paid readers. We're looking at rate of growth. I'm also looking at how different clients use notes. But what works for me is not going to necessarily work for one of my clients. And I don't do anything that's recipe driven. So it's a completely different vertical. But it's been really fun to speak the same language with them. And then also with publishers, I have some colleagues in the industry that also read the newsletter. And so they know that when I'm pitching something nuanced about my client's substack, they know I'm speaking from a place of experience. And I can get really granular.

47:04Yeah, it's great to know that dashboard. And it just feels like if you have even a couple thousand followers on Substack and reading you every week, that would translate to book sales. Well, here's the thing about Substack is that there's followers and there's subscribers, which I have feelings about. But if somebody is subscribing to you, then they are opting in for your content. And there is such a higher conversion to buying a book via Substack audience or newsletter audience, Substack being under the microscope right now, versus followers on a social media account because of the algorithm.

47:40And because on your newsletter, people are saying, like, I want to hear from you. And if you can build that relationship with them well before you're then asking them for something, they are more likely to buy in because they really value what you're sharing. And in fact, if you go another level and then they're actually paying. Exactly. Then you're like, OK, well, those people are going to. Right. They're already giving you money. So like, why not just give you a little bit more? Right. Well, I want to wrap it and talk about the fall season. And we're really in the midst of planning a lot of conversations here.

48:12And amazing, amazing list from Crown and in the world of cookbooks. And can't wait to have all these authors on. What are you looking forward to with the fall season, Sally? Well, fall's at heavy hitting time. Yeah, it sure is. I'm excited that Melissa Clark has a new book coming out. Not my client. Obviously, big fan. I'll have to say, by the way, Dinner, this kind of like a follow-up to that, that is like truly one of my favorite cookbooks of all time, maybe seven or eight years ago. And this is her, I'm possibly having a live conversation with her in New York and all this stuff for that. Yeah.

48:45I, on the client side, I have a book from Tiffany Berrier called Good Spirits that's coming out. And this is her debut book about the history of drinking and the joy of drinking, both mocktails and spirits and the classics are in there. And there's a lot of history and culture. and this is one of those books that is just so highly anticipated by her community and the industry at large. We have a Clerks and Potter book, The Coffee for Here from Morgan Eckroft that's coming out. It's going to be stunning. It is a stunning book. I've seen it. I'm really excited for her community to have access to her first book and then also coffee culture.

49:27I'm thrilled with that book. Coffee. Her work is so beautiful. It's truly a big moment for coffee publishing. Yes. But when was the last time we said something like that? Big moment for coffee publishing. I know. It's incredible. I think Jordan and the Sprudge team have put out some great books. Yeah. And there's been a little bit of a history there. And I think with Morgan's following and just general knowledge, I've seen this book for a couple months now. Yeah. So good. Yeah. Buy that book. So good. Thank you. Not My Client, Really Excited, Food is a Feeling, Carl O 'Ally. Yeah. Yeah. It's another Clarkson Potter one that's coming.

50:03I'm really excited for Sitting the Month from Clarissa Wey. Really excited about that book. Looks beautiful. And then I have no affiliation with this book either, but the Radicchio book that's coming out. I don't know about this. Oh, my gosh. So it's from Timber Press. So part of a smaller publishing arm, super niche, love bitter Radicchio. Been a huge fan for a long time. And I was just, and also it's such a beautiful vegetable like i'm just so excited to see a book about radicchio it's so cool i think single topic can go in so many exciting directions totally i'm i'm thrilled that there's a radicchio book i know you gotta have a you gotta have a full podcast dedicated to radicchio like let's do it i feel like people are gonna you know you're this is the listenership for strong feelings about radicchio yeah if you get if you've gotten this far in the show you you might be picking up that radicchio book that's right that's right yeah um anyway yeah i'm very excited and then i have a almost seven year old at home so i heard that there's a elephant and piggy cookbook coming out which i'm thrilled about and mo willems um is actually in our area where i live western mass so we have a thriving children's book um and uh seen out there like so many amazing children's book authors live out there so i'm pretty excited to see what's in that cookbook i appreciate this this amazing list your clients what are you excited about this oh my gosh I have too many to name I think two of my favorites Mirawana Rani's number one Indian Cookbook World yes I know I almost mentioned that one too also that title it's a great title great title a lot of message and meaning behind that and then Mauricio Leo's book The Perfect Pizza these are my friends so I'm showing you my friends but both books here at Crown and amazing books but so many great books outside of Crown too that will be covering Eliza and I We'll do a fall preview and we'll talk to so many authors.

51:54How do you define fall? Indeed, that's a question that is on a spreadsheet in Google Docs. Yep. I see the date August 3rd. That is maybe fall. Okay. So in that case, I got to plug Martin Sorge's Great Bakes book. That's from Agate Publishing, small indie publisher in the Midwest. And he was the winner of the Great American Baking Show, which as you can imagine is not quite as popular as all the uh british ones and he has a completely charming hyper specific sense of place to great great bakes in in the midwest he's a home baker and enormously talented stunning illustrated cover so curious what your listeners think of the cover but full photography throughout from this fantastic do you know kevin miyazaki the food photographer no i don't oh he's he's done amazing books um but you know it's an august pub and so So it's like, that's fall to me.

52:50And I love that before all, you know, like Ina's big book because we need that space. And that's, I think, also just so representative of the breadth and depth of where we are in the cookbook industry right now. Well, Martin and I will be appearing at the Traverse City. Oh, that's right. Yes, yes. That's right. So excited to be there. And I have to say, like, Pierce Abernathy's debut is an August release. Yep. I'm calling it like fall adjacent. Love that. And I think that's a really, really good book here. Yeah. At Crown. And I mean, thank you for this conversation. Thank you so much. It's been really enlightening.

53:20I think many of our listeners will take a lot away from it. How do you, how do they get in touch? I'm highly accessible online. You can check out the newsletter, Not So Secret Agent on Substack. You find me on Instagram, Sally Ekis. And then my email is all over the place online. And I'm highly accessible. And the best thing to do is like do a little bit of poking around, do a little bit of research. And if you're interested in connecting, please feel free because I absolutely adore supporting this community. I love it. Well, Sally, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste.

53:51Thank you, Matt.

53:55Rebecca Eisenberg, welcome to This Is Taste. So great to have you on. Thank you so much for having me. This is really exciting. Absolutely. Small batch breads. We'll talk all about your new cookbook. But I want to know, just from the jump, what have you been baking recently? Recently, honestly, the thing I'm baking the most is banana bread. I have a one and a half year old. And so we buy a lot of bananas and then don't go through all the bananas. And then she loves banana bread. So there's a lot of banana bread happening. And when it's not that, I'm working on scaling up some of the small batch recipes from the book to share on my website.

54:30Oh, right. So, OK, first question, banana bread. Are we chocolate chips or no chocolate chips? I'm chocolate chips whenever possible. Chocolate chips in anything. Correct answer. Absolutely agree. That's the way to do it. I mean, I feel like some people like to make a mission statement that there are like no chocolate chips are allowed in banana bread. But those folks aren't invited on our show. Yeah. All right. Good. I like that. So I love that you mentioned scaling because small batch breads is such a it's a cool idea that all of these bread recipes require one cup of flour or less. How did you come across that need to create recipes that used smaller amounts?

55:15Well, it started during the pandemic. I had been blogging for, it started in late 2019 and then lockdowns happened early 2020. and I was working on a focaccia recipe and flour was hard to come by and we weren't having dinner parties so I had nowhere to take the focaccia. Focaccia has a very short shelf life and I was like eight full-size focaccias in when I was like this is just there's I don't need this much focaccia. What if I try scaling it down and I'll do my tests that way and then I can scale it back up at the end and once I scaled it down we found it's just me and my husband at the time uh the little focaccia was just perfect for for our needs and I started to think other people might actually want the small batch too um and I shared it and it didn't quite take off right away but about a year later suddenly everyone was it like went super viral but my initial inclination to do these smaller recipes was purely practical.

56:25I needed to conserve flour. I needed to do many iterations and I needed to not be wasting so much bread. So organic the way that the concept of this book came about. And I think, yeah, a lot of bakers are baking for one or two and certainly don't want to have to buy like four bags of flour. I love it. Let's talk a little bit about your career before now. You worked in tech and media, BuzzFeed and others. What's that career like for you? And what was happening in your life right before you burned out that created you to pivot away from that career? I think the biggest thing, I had worked in media and tech and I really enjoyed sort of viral media, keeping up with internet trends, news, stuff like that.

57:23But my last job, well, I was freelancing, but my last job before freelancing was at Headspace. And I moved across the country to do that. And it just ended up not quite being the job that I wanted it to be. They were kind of in a period of flux. And so there were a lot of people coming and going. And so I was only there for about a year before I left and began freelancing. But it was really unstable, like feeling to have moved across the country for something that didn't turn out to be what I envisioned it to be. And I was feeling, you know, even though my husband was out there with me, and I did have friends in LA, it was feeling professionally kind of isolating.

58:10And so I started freelancing and there were some good steady freelance jobs, but the nature of freelancing is you're constantly hustling, constantly pitching yourself. And then media jobs began to sort of get consolidated. There were lots of layoffs and it just felt, there was like just this feeling of this utter lack of control over your own career, your own ability to provide for yourself. And it was exhausting. And so while I was freelancing, because I had like a steady 20 hour a week gig and then, you know, picked up things here and there, I decided to start the blog because I was thinking maybe I'll go into food media.

58:55And I didn't have any clips on food writing. I knew I liked baking and cooking, but I hadn't written in that space before. So as I was kind of burning out, chasing after like tech bros who needed writers for things. And, you know, I was just I felt like I was contorting myself to be all these things other people wanted me to be. And the blog was the one place where I could just be myself. And my hope was that like it would resonate with other people. And that was sort of the thing that like saved me from the burnout and allowed me to, you know, move away from this constant hustle of freelancing.

59:36Well, welcome to Food Media, first off. I'm glad that the tech bros didn't come with you in some ways. Yeah. I mean, I appreciate your honesty about one job leading to another and launching the blog. And you clearly had a lot of savvy when it came to digital media by launching it. And like you launch it, you're freelancing. Do you have like some nice success when launching it and actually start making some money? Yeah, I mean, it took a bit to actually like really earn money. But I knew so initially when I started it, it was like this will be a portfolio of writing. But I did know that it was possible to monetize blogs eventually.

1:00:19And I had a friend who I think he had like a, it was like a sports blog or a parenting blog or something. But I, he at least helped me get the infrastructure right so that if it took off, I wouldn't have to like restart the entire site on like a different platform. And then I was very lucky that in part because I had an audience from my previous roles as like a journalist and an editor, I was able to share, you know, my newest recipes with them and start building an audience for the blog. And then it was again, the pandemic started and I had written like some little guides to sourdough. And of course everyone was making sourdough.

1:01:04So it was maybe six or seven months into having the blog that I started to get a few posts like really taking off because everyone was searching for sourdough answers um so that was very fulfilling enter uh pastry school so you you go to you go to culinary school and you you learn um you know to be to be a professional essentially i mean what is that what does the training teach you what's what's entering school like after working in media is it hard and like yo you're the valedictorian i mean that's rarely do we get to have a shot at valedictorian after high school and you know you got it yeah i mean i will say it was a very small class we were we were taking classes during the pandemic so it wasn't you know the 20 people that are usually in class but i will still take every little bit of credit for that take that valedictorian title um it was very weird going back to school I was like in my early 30s and um I remember the first day in class when it wasn't the first day of class but the first day that they were like and there will be a quiz tomorrow I had a real like wait a minute you're quizzing like I volunteered I wanted to be here and you're quizzing me um moment but I got out on my flashcards and I studied and I I the quizzes were not as scary as I thought they were going to be.

1:02:33But pastry school was huge for me because prior to pastry school, even though I knew a lot from being a hobby baker and you can read a lot on baking and everything, pastry school was the first place where someone broke it down for me in like methods and processes that are sort of applied across recipes. Prior to that, every recipe felt like brand new information. So even though every cake recipe or almost every cake, you know, uses the creaming method, you cream the butter and sugar, you add the eggs one at a time, you alternate adding dry and wet ingredients just until combined. Every time I made a cake recipe, it felt like, what do I start with?

1:03:19What do I do next? What do I, and you're, it just made the whole process feel frantic. But once you go to pastry school and you're being trained to memorize these processes and these sort of routines, it really freed me up to then be thinking about ingredient quantities and what ingredients were being used, what temperatures the ingredients were at, because I didn't have to think anymore about like what order I was combining everything. in oh wow i mean were you like a crafty person growing up did you have like the hand skills that i feel like pastry scroll requires yeah i mean i always liked arts and painting and crafts and kind of building things um yeah i i always kind of liked that stuff and i find bread making is a very fun way to kind of use your hands no doubt the mini chocolate babka uh is is a really cool recipe to do babka with only one cup of flour you know what's it like developing that recipe tell us a bit about that that was one of the recipes when i first sat down to sort of plan out my recipes for the book it was one that was like in the back of my mind like i i need to do this this has to be in here um and i'm just so delighted with how it turned out it's surprisingly substantial.

1:04:39Like throughout the book, I'm consistently surprised by just how far a cup of flour can go. But the little babka you can share with like four to six people and I bake it in like a little square four by four pan and it's like coiled up. So it ends up being the height of like a regular babka loaf. But I know not everyone has that pan. So I did test it in like a regular loaf pan. And even that it's like you get like, you know, it's not the height of a regular babka, but it it's a good, nice, like snack and it's rich and it's decadent and it still has the simple syrup on top and the chocolate filling.

1:05:18And like, we're not skipping steps here. It's just smaller. It's just not a full size babka. And it's it's great. Every time I make it, I'm like so delighted to turn it out of the pan and see what it looks like. Sounds great. I have to ask you about the digital scale. I wrote a piece where we published a piece on taste in 2018, which is like, you know, buy an effing digital scale people. And you also share this opinion. I want to ask you, you know, you work in media, you understand like the needs of people and like you're not just a cookbook author. so I think you have insight into the psychology of like why would somebody not buy a digital scale I mean there is cost involved but you can get them for very cheap but like there's just something about digital skills that people just don't like or something I don't I'm tell me Rebecca yeah I have a couple of theories on this I think the the biggest one is fear um I know for me I had a fear of it for a long time.

1:06:25For some reason, I thought it would involve doing like more math. Yes. If you've never seen someone use one, it's just like, I think if you've grown up with cups, you just are like, I don't understand what's happening. And I think a lot about, and I, this may not be true, but I feel like I've heard that like boxed cake mix, you don't necessarily need to use an egg, but they have you put an egg in it because people gave the feedback that it didn't feel like baking unless they cracked an egg. And I feel like it's the same kind of if you've grown up with cups and then suddenly someone's like, yeah, you can make the cookies without cups.

1:07:00People are like, I don't understand. That doesn't feel like baking. The first thing I do when I bake is I get out my cups. And so I feel like there's changing that kind of perception is part of it. And then you're looking at, you know, I know roughly what one cup of something looks like, but when you're new to weight measurements and someone says a hundred grams, you have no idea is that one cup or is that 10 cups so it does take some adjusting to get used to but I've found the best argument that I can make for people when they're like I don't know I just don't want to do it as I ask them if they've ever made a recipe multiple times and it's turned out great sometimes and not great other times and usually they're like yeah I just thought that was how baking worked.

1:07:49Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And I'm like, no, no, that's not how it should be. If you use a scale, you'll actually like succeed most of the time. Um, and then it starts to click for them a little bit. Yeah. You, you were up for the challenge. You, you really explained it well. I think people have rituals and certainly the math part of it is metric. If you're, uh, you know, not used to using metric it could be but also it's it's i think the the counterpoint and like when people see the light is like like literally what does a cup of anything mean like just like tapping just the just the slightest bit of a cup of flour will create a different recipe and people oh yeah also like who the hell wants to clean out like a molasses maple syrup or honey from a cup totally And sometimes in a, like, I don't know anyone, I mean, maybe baker, proficient bakers, but most people only have one set of measuring cups.

1:08:51And if you've measured the honey and now you need to measure the flour, you know, you got to do more dishes. And yeah, I, I've also found, I've put it to my audience at times to, to say to them, like, if you have a scale and you don't use it for baking, get out your cup and measure a cup and then dump the cup out and scoop it again. is it the same number yeah and that usually all of a sudden they're like yeah i see why those cookies are those exactly those one cookies that are you know that are your friends so proud of but then it's like this is cake this is not a cookie this is like a cake cookie and then you pretend you're like oh i love cake cookies they're so great most people are like oh yeah and then you're like those are the worst cookies it's because of flour people put too much flour in yeah it is it is and i have people say to me like give me an answer that's not measure with a scale and i'm like there's there is no other answer measure with a scale yeah and you will solve your problem yeah it's just something i think the ritual part is so smart i agree people just feel like it's not baking um so you've done a lot of projects and i love that your background is not necessarily always has been in baking but tell me about writing this cookbook and how has it been different than any other project you've worked on it was so much fun writing this cookbook um i am very much like an immediate gratification person and so the blog has been wonderful for that because i developed the rest i'm usually working on two or three at a time but i kind of develop them photograph them video them get them written up post them move on to the next one um the cookbook was the first time i really had to like sit on all these recipes for like two years.

1:10:41And it was really hard to not be getting that kind of immediate feedback from my readers. I'm a big proponent of like, do it messy, clean it up later, which isn't to say that I put up imperfect recipes on purpose. But with a website, the recipe can be as long as you want. There's no like word count, page layout, anything. You know, I can go back in and reshoot the photos if I want. If I realize people are getting confused by an instruction, I can edit it. Doing a cookbook, you really have to get it as perfect as possible before you send it out into the world. So it was great. This was the first time I had really worked with like a dedicated recipe cross tester who was wonderful.

1:11:29She tested every recipe by weight and by volume just to make sure that all of my volume conversions were correct. Because I do feel, even though I'm team kitchen scale, I describe these books as being made with one cup of flour. Yes, you have to have that volumetric. So I did have to have the volume conversions. And so I had her test everything twice to make sure that both worked. um and yeah I mean it was just it was it was such a cool experience I think also because part of writing a blog the unfortunate part of writing a blog is that you're a little bit at the whim of SEO and and what people are searching for and so there's certain recipes people are searching for scaled down but there's a lot I wanted to make that wouldn't necessarily you know be something people were searching for enough for it to make sense for me to do the recipe for my site but I do think there is a need and a desire for these recipes and so the book was my way of being able to still put those recipes that I really wanted to share out into the world and to make sure that people who you know live alone or are empty nesters or have tiny kitchens can make such a variety of breads without kind of being at the whim of like what the Google algorithm or whatever, you know, says people want to see.

1:12:56Rebecca, this has been a lot of fun. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you for having me. This was a lot of fun.

1:13:07This Is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Barbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skirzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com And make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.