In short
Carla Lalli’s new book Food is a Feeling and how cooking became her emotional lifeline after her divorce—reframing “comfort food” away from guilt and “guilty pleasure.” She also discusses writing/voice, stepping back from social-media food photos, and the practical process of writing (including using popcorn as a “pause”). She shares recipe philosophy: recipes are driven by lived experience and memory rather than boxed categories.
Guest backgrounds
Carla Lalli Stopped performing and started cooking for herself. Carla Lalli is a former Bon Appétit test kitchen cook and editor, later independent, publishing two bestselling cookbooks before Food is a Feeling. She runs a Substack (Food as a Feeling / Food Processing) and previously built a YouTube audience.
Key claims
Comfort and nourishment can be “pure, beautiful” during hard times; emotional eating isn’t inherently bad. Cookbook voice doesn’t need to stay consistent with brand “tone.” Social-media food photographing feels exhausting and unnecessary now.
Notable examples
Her “deluxe” Tribeca sandwich (warm baguette, European butter, Forme d’Ambert, cracked black pepper); stovetop popcorn with vegetable oil, nutritional yeast, Aleppo/Urfa garlic powder, salt, MSG, and olive oil; her stovetop popcorn “no kernel left unpopped” method.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOOverview of 'Food is a Feeling'
2:19 to 3:01
Carla discusses her new book and its unique narrative structure.
“We haven't had a conversation in the studio since 2019.”
Dining Out in New York
3:01 to 4:06
Carla shares her favorite local dining spots and their cuisines.
“And the recipes that are in the book actually reflect like what was going on either in my life or in the memory that I'm talking about in the essay.”
The Impact of Personal Loss
4:06 to 5:15
Carla reflects on her father's passing and its effect on her cooking.
“I think that something that's going on in New York right now is that dining out is like astronomically expensive.”
Emotional Connections to Food
5:15 to 8:05
Exploring how emotional experiences shape our cooking and food preferences.
“And so that part of the year where normally I would have been like super jazzed up about, you know, scapes or whatever, I kind of like May is just like a kind of a blur.”
Reconceptualizing Comfort Food
8:05 to 13:33
Carla discusses redefining comfort food in the context of nourishment.
“my own kind of like working through the emotions around everything that was happening changed how I was cooking and eating.”
Reconceptualizing Comfort Food
13:59 to 15:07
Carla discusses redefining comfort food in the context of nourishment.
“Quince's Japanese Damascus knives earned that place almost immediately.”
Reconceptualizing Comfort Food
15:30 to 16:35
Carla discusses redefining comfort food in the context of nourishment.
“When you travel for a living the way we do for taste travels, you see the same thing over and over.”
Exploring Voice in Cooking
16:44 to 19:06
Carla discusses the evolution of her writing voice and authenticity.
“Let's talk about voice because you write an essay about voice.”
Procrastination and Writing Processes
19:06 to 21:46
The conversation dives into procrastination and the writing process for cookbooks.
“Yeah, and really cook to use a pun, you know, you're cooking there with the voice.”
The Art of Making Popcorn
21:46 to 25:26
Carla shares her preferred method and seasoning for making popcorn.
“I mean, I talk about inactive time and comparing it to recipes and that there's a little bit of flurry of activity that you need to do to get the thing going.”
Show all 24 chapters
Memories from Montrachet
25:26 to 28:00
Carla reminisces about her time at Montrachet and memorable culinary experiences.
“which is usually the very hard part, that was almost like taking a break from the writing.”
Reflections on a Culinary Journey
28:00 to 29:40
Explore the narrator's early experiences after graduating culinary school and their nostalgic memories of working in a restaurant.
“And that's like I was taken back because I recall a time myself when you could take a break and not have a phone.”
The Thrill of Kitchen Life
29:40 to 31:10
Discover the intensity and excitement of working in a high-pressure kitchen environment and the impact of teamwork on cooking.
“actually know, but I know what that whole thing felt like.”
Dreams of Opening a Restaurant
31:10 to 34:05
Delve into the aspirations and realizations of wanting to open a restaurant and the challenges faced in the industry.
“And And being there, I was lucky there was another female line cook in that kitchen because I think it would have been much, much more intimidating.”
Reality TV Experience
34:05 to 36:50
Hear about the narrator's experience on a reality TV cooking show and the surprising realities of televised restaurant drama.
“So for on the tour that I'm going on for Food is a Feeling, I'm doing a few pop ups and they're called Beans, Greens and Sardines.”
Navigating Substack and Culinary Writing
36:50 to 42:05
Learn about the narrator's transition to writing on Substack and the challenges of balancing audience expectations with personal expression.
“It was crazy because also the restaurant was a real restaurant that they did not shore up the financials of that.”
Exploring Recipe Strategy and Audience Engagement
42:05 to 45:12
Learn about the importance of revisiting and promoting old recipes while engaging with the audience.
“So we're either going to make people happy, attract new people who are going to become happy or like maybe not do well at all.”
Reflections on Recognition and Influence
45:12 to 48:50
Discover Carla's thoughts on being recognized and the impact of her cooking on others.
“And as people start to see that, this is a fun thing to get in your inbox, not like a bad, like, all birds send.”
Reflections on Recognition and Influence
52:21 to 53:37
Discover Carla's thoughts on being recognized and the impact of her cooking on others.
“One thing nobody tells you about moving out of a one-bedroom rental apartment in Brooklyn and into an actual house upstate is that people start visiting.”
Rapid Fire Taste Check
53:48 to 56:00
Engage with Carla's quick responses to questions about her favorite foods and dining experiences.
“Carla, on This Is Taste, we ask guests about their discerning taste.”
Memorable Dining Experiences
56:00 to 57:29
Explore nostalgic dining memories and favorite fast food spots.
“There was a diner on the corner of 86th and Columbus that we used to go to in a high school that everyone who worked there was like 312 years old.”
Cooking at Home: Soba Noodles and Protein
57:30 to 58:58
Discuss the last home-cooked meal and the importance of protein.
“The last thing you cook for yourself at home.”
Salad Sandwich Love
58:59 to 59:49
Uncover the joys of salad sandwiches and beach sandwich innovations.
“It's something I have always loved, like a dressed salad that you then put in between two slices of bread.”
Wrap-Up and Appreciation
59:50 to 1:00:14
Reflect on the conversation and appreciation between hosts and guest.
“the flat parts of the cabbage leaf you know if you cut a cabbage into a quarter and just peel off those those whatever that in a sandwich which has kind of become clutch at the beach.”
Transcript
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1:07You know, when I started really thinking about comfort and nourishment, why do we associate comfort food with, like, overdoing it? And how really closely linked that idea is to guilty pleasure, which is another sort of demonic thing that we've created to link the pleasure and enjoyment of food with somehow feeling bad. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard. Carla Lally built her name in the Bon Appetit test kitchen before going independent and publishing two best-selling cookbooks. Yet, there was much more going on in her life. 24 years into her marriage, it ended. And her sparkling new book, Food is a Feeling, tells the story through 65 recipes and 30 essays that treat cooking not as a lifestyle brand extension, but as the thing that got her through it all.
2:01On this episode, Carla and I talk Substack life, savvy recipe shortcuts, and getting it all down in a voice that feels true to real life, not online life. I hope you enjoy this episode.
2:16Carla Lally, welcome. This is Taze. So great to see you. You too. Oh my gosh. We haven't had a conversation in the studio since 2019. I know. It's really crazy. It's crazy. Yeah. I absolutely love your book. Thank you. The writing is just so great. Thank you. It's full voice. It's just really like you're drawn into the story and we'll get to the story. But also just the way you weave wet recipes, it's not easy. No, I really wanted to kind of flip the way that we normally or that I would normally develop a recipe and then write something to go with the recipe. And in this book, I wanted to tell a story that sets up the recipes.
3:01So it's just like a total flip. And the recipes that are in the book actually reflect like what was going on either in my life or in the memory that I'm talking about in the essay. So there is like a little bit of a randomness to the recipes because they're driven by the experience instead of breaking something up into categories and being like, we need a carrot recipe. See, I like that more than like forcing recipes into boxes. People do that well. It's the vocabulary work with most cookbooks. Yeah. When you can nail it and the randomness feels less random as you read, it's a special book. Thank you.
3:45Yeah. Before we get to the themes and a bunch of essays I want to talk about, we'll talk about Montreux a little bit. Okay. Got to go back there. Yeah. Always want to talk about Montreux. You know, you cook so much, but you also dine out. I know you do both. Where have you been dining out in New York recently? Oh, my goodness. Where have I been dining out? I don't go to new places that often. I think that something that's going on in New York right now is that dining out is like astronomically expensive. I would say the most frequently visited restaurants are within a city block of my house. So I go to Zong Zong, which is on my block.
4:30Amazing noodle soups and wontons. I go to Burritos Juarez, which also I don't have to cross the street to go to. Just incredible flour tortillas and delicious burritos and salsas. And then I always call it Green Mountain, but I think it's actually Mint Heights is like also a really good Indian place that like is also half a block from my house. house. So those are in high rotation. Yeah. And what about cooking? We'll say that too. I know it's a busy time. Yeah. Getting ready to release this book and go to a tour. Yeah. But I know you're still cooking. It's farmer's market season. For sure. Yeah.
5:10It's been a weird year for me. I kind of missed out on spring. I lost my dad at the end of April. And so that part of the year where normally I would have been like super jazzed up about, you know, scapes or whatever, I kind of like May is just like a kind of a blur. So I've been catching up. I did recently go out to visit a friend out in Amagansett and went back to Balsam Farms, which is like my happy place, actually a place that inspired where cooking begins, like the whole shopping and cooking philosophy. Really started with a summer shopping at Balsam. So I got like delicious cantaloupe, Had my first corn.
5:53Yeah. That's great. Yeah. And your previous two books, I mean, they're terrific. Thank you. I was looking back at them as well and prepping for this. And I forget how they're very special books and very popular too. Yeah. I think people a lot of times who maybe caught up with me like later in my career once Bon Appetit had like, you know, happened. They'll say a lot, you know, I love your book. And whenever I hear that, I know they're referring to that sounds so good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it was the second one. But I think both of those books are good examples of how I had prioritized editorial service in all of my recipe development and food writing.
6:36It was really about teaching, calling out technique, just much more focused on the mechanics of doing this and instilling confidence. And this book is so different because I actually prioritized emotional connection before service. Yeah, it's like two for them, one for you. Right. Mentality. Yeah, exactly. I appreciate it. I'm so happy we publish it here. Yeah. And let's talk about flipping the script a little bit, thinking about the narrative and speaking candidly in the text about your divorce, you know, as a theme. This is, you know, there's a long history of writing about divorce. You know, you've got Heartburn and so on.
7:19Wonderful books. But you haven't seen it in this form, which is why I think everyone should pick it up and read it just for a literary work. I think that for me, I know that the book being positioned as like a divorce memoir is not accurate. But the book really starts with the moment that I am single for the first time. So I write really very little about the marriage or the whys of why the breakup happened or the ins and outs of it. And I think people associate like the idea of a divorce memoir with, you know, revenge or, you know, really getting into nitty gritty. And like you're not going to find that necessarily in food and a feeling.
8:07What happened was that event happened in my life and it actually the experiences that I went through in the immediate after of figuring out who I was, what my relationship to my kids was going to be, you know, as a as a co-parent and not as a, you know, both parents in the house. my own kind of like working through the emotions around everything that was happening changed how I was cooking and eating. So in the middle of this experience, I kind of looked up one day and was like, oh, I've always known that I have this like deep emotional connection to food in my life and my family and cooking as like, you know, a form of pleasure and eating for sure.
9:04But it was the experiences themselves and the way that I was thinking about food and the memories that were coming up that inspired the book. So I didn't have a book three waiting in the wings you know there was it was it came from that experience um and what's weird for me there's there's personal photos that I like took on my iPhone that we were able to to weave into the design of the book there's dishes in there that I was cooking that I had no idea would end up being recipes in this book it was like looking back on it being like oh I had already started creating the material for this book without knowing that this book was going to exist.
9:48Let's talk about the change in the cooking and how you mentioned that. I could see a couple of ways. Change could be maybe certain things don't matter. You're going through this big life change. It also could be things matter more, and I'm getting more time for myself. How do you define the change? Yeah, I think it's a mix, and this is why I think that the I hope that the book will appeal to so many people who whose lives are filled with just a mix of experiences, because I really saw it as an opportunity to rethink what comfort food means and how we position that idea. definitely in food editorial as like this kind of sinful thing of like, you know, be lying in bed, eating brownie bites or like, you know, it's always like kind of couched around some sort of decadence.
10:46And, and as I was sort of thinking through how I was comforting myself with cooking and eating, it wasn't that at all. It was like, you know, my mom's fried bread with like a big vinegary salad piled on top of it. It was personal pot of beans and greens. It was, you know, sometimes it was like a big bowl of popcorn and like housewives. So, you know, when I started really thinking about comfort and nourishment, it brought up all this stuff around like, why do we associate comfort food with like, overdoing it? And how really closely linked that idea is to guilty pleasure, which is another sort of demonic thing that we've created to make, to link the pleasure and enjoyment of food with somehow feeling bad.
11:39So I really wanted to like, think about that. And that emotional eating is also like a bad thing. And actually, it was like the most sort of pure, beautiful thing that was happening during a really difficult time was that I did have, you know, three moments in a day to kind of turn off everything else that's going on and like take care of myself with food. I'm grateful that I have like a healthy relationship to food. I know that that can be like loaded for people who have EDs. And I've certainly, you know, talked to lots of people who experienced that. But it was like, when things are hard, this one thing doesn't have to be.
12:25Yeah, I love that. So articulate about the way, the guilty pleasure of consuming during trauma or stress. Yeah. Like, yes, a pot of beans is comforting and that is satisfying. And that can be for many people, the food that gets them through it. Yeah. And celebrating it in this book is very special. Cast iron has been a staple in kitchens for generations and Smithy is bringing that tradition into the modern kitchen. They craft vintage-inspired cast iron that, unlike the rough and bumpy cookware you may be used to, is polished smooth for a naturally nonstick cooking surface that only gets better with time.
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16:48And I think running a test kitchen at BA, you know, you're like set in the BA voice, right? Like in point of view. And you really kind of, you push back on this idea that cookbooks need to have consistent voice. Yeah. And I love it. Very literary book that you've written and we need more of them. I'm all about it. And talk about coming from that like big institution of like the BA voice. Yeah. Other publications for sure into this world. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's like one thing that happens when you work for a brand is like you inhabit that tone and BA in particular had like a lot of tone. Yeah.
17:25And being kind of free in this book to have the work reflect the fact that I have changed, that my experience has deepened, that my connection to the food and maybe, you know, being more comfortable writing than I was five years ago, eight years ago. it felt like it would be really bizarre in a way, just from where I was and what I was going through to then re-represent myself in the same kind of voice. And I talked about this a little bit in a YouTube video, which might've been about personal pot of beans and greens. I can't remember which one, but when I was finally able to be on my videos and talk about what was going on in my personal life because I it was private it was secret so I was still making videos and being yeah Carla making beans yeah hello welcome yeah voice just still like quirky goofy blah blah blah and like meanwhile behind the scenes like you know things were gnarly yeah so when I could kind of finally be like actually this is the real thing that is happening and how that influences my work.
18:44It was very, it felt, I know this is overused word, but like it did feel really authentic and more truthful. And I kind of wanted to break a bunch of rules in this book because it was atypical and it didn't follow a model that already existed. So in maybe changing recipe voice is linked to a lot of decisions that we made, like even about the size and format of the book, the way that the recipes were going to be laid out, the fact that there was going to be 30 plus essays, you know, it all kind of was an invitation to like do it totally differently. Yeah, and really cook to use a pun, you know, you're cooking there with the voice.
19:33In one of the essays, you write about how you can no longer, you no longer have the instinct to take a picture of your food. I mean, tell me your secret. Yeah. Because I, listen, I can't. Yeah. So please. It's like one of those things where it just has become like really boring to me. Yeah. And I, it's exhausting. I have a lot of like feelings about social media in general. Yeah. but it's just one of those things where I'm like what do I what do I have to say you know what I mean like I I can't yeah and you know I think that that also happened I could look at my own cookbooks I can look at that sounds so good and look at the images and be like I literally could not do a cookbook like that now so everything that it took to kind of like do that I don't have And it's not something I like made a conscious decision about necessarily.
20:35But, you know, I've been very online since probably 20. 12? I mean, I don't think things got really crazy with social until maybe like 2016. But that's 10. It's 10 years. You know, sometimes I just want to throw my phone across the room. Yeah, absolutely. And you have in many ways. And you write about it. And I appreciate it. I appreciate that you're honest about social media and food and being part of food media. And it may be not being the healthiest thing to like take a snap of everything you're eating. Totally. Yeah. No, totally, totally respect that. Yeah. And you need to like figure out how to do that.
21:18Yeah. Yeah. Alone popcorn. Great recipe. We can get into the recipe, which I want to. But it's a great essay about like procrastination while writing, which as someone I've written cookbooks myself, it's so hard sometimes to just get in onto the horse and bang out the writing. A hundred percent. I love the essay so much. So like why? And I recognize that you need popcorn to write sometimes. Yeah, I think that essay being about that's another thing that I'm trying to like, we need a new word for procrastination that doesn't have the negative connotations. Marination? Totally. I mean, I talk about inactive time and comparing it to recipes and that there's a little bit of flurry of activity that you need to do to get the thing going.
22:00And then there could be a period of time where it doesn't seem like anything is happening. But like things are collagen is melting, like things are happening. So because this was my third book, I thought surely this time it's all going to like click. I'm going to do the thing where I like get up, walk the dog, do the thing, come back to the house, like right uninterrupted for four hours, you know, and then it's going to be noon. And then I'm going to have lunch and I'm going to go work out and then I'm going to come back and I'm going to work for three. I'm not going to do any of those things.
22:33It's like that is not what's going to maybe one day that will happen because that is what happens. Yeah. You're in like flow state that one day and it works. A hundred percent. But I mean, this was probably from when I had a deal to write the book. About eight months went by where I really had not written anything. Okay. And by the time I started writing with the angel Alex Beggs, who was my top editor. Amazing person, friend, editor. That you said her name. Yeah, she's incredible. We had like six months, you know. Yeah. And so at that point, it was do or die kind of. And I worked seven days a week.
23:25I worked, if it was happening in the morning, I wrote in the morning. If it was happening at midnight, I wrote at midnight. And sometimes I would be able to think about an essay for five days, not write anything, sit down, write it in 45 minutes. Other essays like Segments, which is about feeding an orange to my younger son when he was a baby. that essay had started as a journal entry during the summer of separation and took like 10 times of sitting down and re-editing and going over it so it was just like I don't know I'm not I you know Patty Smith supposedly gets up at four in the morning and used to write for three or four hours before her kids went to school amazing I just gave I've let that go And so the reason I, one of the ways that I procrastinate or delay or like build in downtime is I'll just decide like I surely have another more important kitchen project.
24:26Right. And making popcorn is a step away from the desk. But when you are eating popcorn, you also cannot type. It is so true. You need those pauses. and if you if you're a measured popcorn eater and some like just go ham and it's like 30 seconds you're done maybe that's me but some people you can have a few and then you got to stop you wipe your hands and you hit it yeah yeah to carla it's need a minute and also like ruminating this is like very metaphor but ruminating as like a thought process but also chewing and chewing on something and like noodling around, like walking the dog. There were lots of times where it was like, it's not happening.
25:07So I'm going to go do this other thing. And then I'd be like, oh, maybe I had to do that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think of it like a lot more too. Yeah. When I write, like that's my visualization. I need to like do something that's like a couple of pranks. That's like my visual. Like when I need to step away and like go outside. Yeah. And like do something. I mean, it was funny because like doing the recipe development for this, which is usually the very hard part, that was almost like taking a break from the writing. And it felt like a relief, you know, because some of the writing I had to go back and get in the headspace of like a really gnarly time, you know?
25:46And so no wonder like my brain was like, let's maybe not. You were suppressing a lot of it at times, I'm sure. It's just like hard to, you know, anyone who's gone through a hard decision or a big loss or like, you know, even like something like leaving a job or having a friend breakup, like whatever sort of those things that we all experience to talk about. It means like putting yourself back there. And that can just be like, you know, tough. It's like hard to then immerse yourself back into it and you'll feel all those same feelings again. What's the recipe for the popcorn? What's your way of doing popcorn?
26:26Oh, I mean, popping the popcorn, I have very strong feelings about. Last night I made popcorn, actually, and no kernel left unpopped. I mean, that's, you know, that's the goal. I pop my popcorn on stovetop. I use vegetable oil. I think a third of a cup is like an amount that is massive, but also is an amount that I would like to eat. and then my seasoning has evolved a bit over the years but nutritional yeast you know plays a very big part Aleppo garlic powder salt obviously MSG a little olive oil Tossy Toss yeah I love Aleppo in popcorn I do too and I'm out of it right now so if I don't have it I'll use Gochugaru but last night I had Urfa Urfa I was gonna say Urfa is the other one so good so smoky and like, yeah, just like, it's the same but different.
27:26It tastes so good. That's my writing partner, Daniel Holzman's preferred popcorn is Urfa. With Urfa? Yeah, yeah, that's his move. Well, let's go back to the Montrachet days. Okay. You write an essay that is really lovely about making yourself a sandwich. Yeah. Like a baguette with butter and a great French cheese. And, you know, you're on break at this legendary Tribeca restaurant. Yeah. And you're sitting there having this sandwich and you see a guy and there's an interaction, which I think is really lovely. But it also just like took us back to this like pre-cell phone era where like breaks meant literally sitting and staring into space.
28:01And that's like I was taken back because I recall a time myself when you could take a break and not have a phone. Yeah. Take us back to that time in your life when you're working at this restaurant. Yeah. So that was when I graduated from culinary school, which I guess was the end of 98. ate and I had done my like externship at Montrachet and then they hired me as a line cook. So on Fridays we worked, it was the only day that we worked lunch and dinner. So you get this like midday break in between and whatever was left on the cheese board was like kind of up for grabs. And there was always baguette left in this like tiny toaster.
28:43And it was the first time I had ever had Formed Umber, which is like a creamy blue veined, like bloomy rind cheese. That's like, I love blue cheeses, but it's not super salty and crazy. So my deluxe sandwich was just like, you know, that warm baguette, European butter, a slab of Formed Umber, a bunch of cracked black pepper. And so I was sitting, I took my sandwich outside and just like sat down on a tiny little stoop and you know I had my chef whites on and was eating eating this sandwich and this guy very Tribeca guy who in my mind now I'm sure I've like my memory of him is this is another thing but like what I see in my memory might not have matched reality and like that's also kind of the beautiful thing about not having a phone like I don't actually know, but I know what that whole thing felt like.
29:44And he saw me sitting and eating in my whites and kind of, you know, gave me a little salute and said, bon appetit, chef. And I was like, you know, and it was kind of like, and good day to you, you know, and it was like being seen, being seen outside of the kitchen as a cook was rare because we were not even supposed to walk through the kitchen this is like open kitchens are not cool in 1998 the this was a very french sort of three star that we are invisible back there um cooking for the kind of guy who was like walking down the street and it was this moment of like he's seeing me i'm seeing him um and sort of like recognizing that i'm working hard yeah you know is that the boulet era of montresay or is that after boulet it was after boulet okay yeah yeah what's it like working in that kitchen i mean it was terrifying incredible adrenaline anxiety making most intense learning experience in the shortest amount of time.
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30:56I think that was where the, I think I like call it a lightning bolt of like recognition and inspiration happened the first night of service where I was just like, this is the most thrilling and exciting workspace I could ever imagine being in. And And being there, I was lucky there was another female line cook in that kitchen because I think it would have been much, much more intimidating. Although she was really intimidating. She was sort of like, she was mean, but in the way that you are like really attracted to the bad witch kind of. Yeah. Tonya Bush writes about that in her memoir. She worked with somebody like that.
31:48Yeah. Which there's kind of a draw. Yeah. To the bad things. Like I say, I was like, well, I couldn't figure out if I wanted to be her or if I wanted to date her or if I like, you know, wanted to get away from her. It was like this really intense mix. But that was where through repetition of what cooking and service is, you know, by definition, that I really learned like and became embodied in the cooking where the motions become kind of just like you're just in your body. and that feeling of working alongside other cooks where when it clicks, it's like the most amazing dance. And then on a bad night, it's like, you, you know, you just want to crawl under the metro shelf and like die.
32:39Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, during this time of change and really changing your life in many aspects, did you ever get like a pang to open something, restaurant, cafe, something where you were doing the cooking or at least overseeing the cooking for the public? Yeah, my original goal when I got out of culinary school was, this is it, I'm gonna be a line cook, then I'm gonna be this, then I'm gonna be CDC, then I'm back, I wanna open my own business. My dad and I actually had a one sheet for like a wine bar that we were gonna do together, yeah. That would've been cool. It would've been awesome.
33:19and I thought that was the path I was pursuing. Then I got to Union Pacific, was a line cook there, became the back of house manager and was responsible for like budget and scheduling and people calling out and then realized like, oh, this is like terrible. You know, this is - The job is terrible. Well, like running a restaurant is financially, insane, you know, and in New York City. And sort of once I learned the margins and what was involved, I was like, maybe not with my own money, you know, like. You're wise to recognize that at a young age because it takes sometimes a long time for people to realize that.
34:04Totally. I think about it actually. So for on the tour that I'm going on for Food is a Feeling, I'm doing a few pop ups and they're called Beans, Greens and Sardines. Fun. So that title is like a fake made up restaurant that I have talked about doing with or without my sister. And so it's an imaginary place that we will bring to life for a few nights. Wonderful to do that. On tour. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Speaking of the restaurant, I read somewhere and correct me if it's true. You made a cameo on The Restaurant, the reality TV show with Rocco Despierdo in like early 2000s. That's amazing. Yes.
34:46So again, it is like one of these incredibly lucky things that that happened kind of pre-digitizing everything. And it's actually like quite hard to get your hands on those episodes, but it is possible. I didn't look. No, no, no. Once in a while, people will be like, I, you know, they've started to trickle onto YouTube. Like, don't go look for them. Please. But yeah, that was Mark Burnett. Yeah, exactly. And it was I was so naive at that time. I was a huge Survivor fan. And I really there was like not that much reality. There was cooking shows that were real like Multimario and Two Hot Tamales.
35:41But there wasn't workplace drama reality. And so I was just very naive because I had always thought like, oh, you wouldn't have to do anything to make a restaurant show. so like interesting and fun. It's like, just set up a camera in the corner of the room, you know? And what really did not understand like how producers produce drama. Yeah, manipulate. So, and then just by happenstance, I was pregnant with my first child during the shooting of the first season. I was so sick to my stomach. We were doing like martini tastings. I was just like hiding it from everyone. So it was kind of torture. And the second season, the second season.
36:25Well, you were on two seasons. Yeah, there were two seasons. And you were on both. I was. And then the second season, I'm gigantically pregnant. Like, get away from me. So the producers would come into like, you know, the reservation room where we had computers or where I would have conversations with staff. And they would listen in and then be like, oh, we didn't get like great audio on that. Could you could you guys have that conversation again? and I would just look at them and be like no I can't I have to do service so that was my way of like not being on camera that was great smart move to like just push back I'm not I didn't know but I kind of knew yeah yeah we had Rocco in a few years ago we talked about the restaurant that what it meant for his career yeah it was really wild wild times and and really it is a pivotal moment for reality tv like it definitely was the first and it was like probably the most expensive in history.
37:17It was crazy because also the restaurant was a real restaurant that they did not shore up the financials of that. Was that like Rocco's on 22? Yeah. I definitely dined there. Yeah. Cool restaurant. Totally. Amazing beaded mural of the Bay of Naples. That was amazing. Yeah, it was a really handsome restaurant and also Union Pacific too. Yeah. Great restaurant. I mean, that's amazing. that early in your career, you worked at some really great restaurants. I want to talk about Substack. Okay. The business of it a little bit. I think it's so cool to have somebody in here. You know, the Substack feels like slightly an incubator for this book in some ways.
37:56Like you're writing in this form and really getting yourself out there. And I don't want to, you've written very honestly about pivoting from YouTube to Substack. And I'll link to your essays about that because I think it's very fascinating about the transparency of the economics. But how do you think about the Substack Carla versus maybe the Book Carla? And like what is your Substack providing your thousands, tens of thousands of subscribers? Yeah. So I write food processing as my newsletter on Substack. And it has been a mix. It's actually an interesting puzzle that I'm still trying to figure out because the Substack corresponds like very closely to when I launched my YouTube channel and started making Carla's cooking show, which corresponds with the publication of That Sounds So Good.
38:48So the bulk of it has been linked to this pattern of recipe development, video dropping, newsletter coming out to promote the video and release the recipe. And I think that writing was more about what I was talking about at the beginning, like, come up with a recipe, tell a story about it after. And once I started writing food as a feeling, I started thinking about, like, how is this going to work, you know, and how do I kind of bring my audience with me to understand that we're going to flip that. So that the, that the connection, the writing about food, the role that food plays, might now be coming before for the editorial service of the payoff of a recipe.
39:39And like, to be honest, I don't know if my existing audience, if that's what they want. And it's really scary, you know? I think there's people who have been paid subs for a long time who have been with me for like, the whole ride, and they're kind of like down for whatever. And I think there's a really large part of people who subscribe that are maybe not paid subscribers who are needing to find that reason to convert. and in a lot of different ways I've tried to talk about how this is you know by far my biggest source of income that Substack has replaced you know the volume of brand deals or collabs that I used to do in the past like I think I've done one branded deal in 2026 and it hasn't even come out yet.
40:42So it's really a user sub based model for your income. Yeah. Yes. And I think that in the time I've been on Substack, it has changed dramatically. Competition has changed. Competition has changed in just like, you know, just the addition of notes and chat and that the homepage of Substack now feels more like you're in a passive scroll, whereas before it was much more destination oriented and you were going because you know there was a new drop from the you know the writer that you follow so I'm still like figuring figuring that out um and either there will be I guess there's three scenarios either there will be growth in an audience that is like psyched for where I am right now.
41:36S.A. Carla. S.A. Carla. We're still talking about food, but also I'm very interested in also talking about the business of publishing right now. I wrote another newsletter about the cookbook shoot. I spent$57 ,000 and that was actually before I had to reshoot the cover. So I'm working on another story about how cookbook covers get made. So a mix of like talking about process, talking about food and recipes. So we're either going to make people happy, attract new people who are going to become happy or like maybe not do well at all. And like those are all possibilities. Yeah, it's good. You're a clear-eyed going into this kind of strategy.
42:24It really is a strategy. You've thought it through. And, you know, there's going to be recipes there, though, right? For sure. Always. And that's another – I think that's another thing for me, and maybe it links back to what we were talking about, about taking – why I'm, like, not that interested to take a picture of food is, like, sometimes I realize that I have not re-promoted the body of work that I've created, that I've put so much emphasis on, like, this one's new. this one's new never never released this one's new and kind of looking back and being like there's a there's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of recipes here yeah and maybe like um expanding them yeah talking about them more I mean I just made my mom's famous pasta salad like that was one of the things that with the food that I got at balsam farms um which is I've been making it forever my mom's been making it forever and I also like love making the same things over and over again.
43:20And people might have missed that recipe the first time, forgotten that it existed, need to be reminded because none of us have any idea what's going on ever. You know, so yeah, there's definitely, there's definitely recipes and I think it'll just more closely follow what I'm actually doing. It's like kind of a hang too. I mean, the best substacks are like definitely an element of we're hanging with you. Here's what's on your line. There might be some links or maybe some stuff to buy yeah add a recipe revise something from one of your two books yeah i feel yeah you have every right to do that yeah it'd be like a brand new yeah that's like there are like a lot of recipes totally i mean sometimes there's days where i pick up a tool that i use constantly in my kitchen i'm like i've never written about this like that's so dumb this thing is this is fucking amazing i love this thing i use it every day you know and it's like that's the kind of thing but also sometimes i'll look at the bestseller in the in the food category the bestsellers list on sub stack and realize like the top five are very committed to meal prep yeah i know which is an amazing yeah um practice yeah i know you just had caro on yeah yeah um that's not what i do definitely so sometimes it's like shit will i never be in the top five you know bestsellers of substack if i don't start doing meal prep content and knowing that like i'm that's not gonna work yeah yeah i mean i'll say you could just do the carla version of meal prep which is like i don't meal prep okay there you go like anti meal prep um i think batch of lentils which i did totally like have rent lentils for five days yes and like like like love it yeah like like love it yeah i think uh yeah i I mean, the audience is growing.
45:09It's still early innings for Substack and the newsletter ecosystem. And as people start to see that, this is a fun thing to get in your inbox, not like a bad, like, all birds send. Do you feel like it's early? I still do. Because I think of our show. We're getting into – we're later in the episode, so we're getting a little media talk here. I think it's fine. I do. I think we think about this show and what we do at Taste as this, like, big ocean of people and even podcasts. Like there's still a lot of people who have never like listened to a podcast consistently. Everyone, of course, is listening to a podcast.
45:43But with Substacks, I think people are still finding out that the newsletter is not like a flash sale for a trip from Delta Airlines. It is actually editorial. It is replacing magazines. It is replacing media. and I think that maybe media circles in coastal cities, it's maybe saturated, but especially with food, people are going to be introduced to you through this book tour and this book and they're going to be like, this is cool. I want to like hang with Carla. So that's my take. I could be so wrong and it could be totally saturated. No, I just, yeah. It feels new because there's new changes to the platform and then in other ways, it feels like extremely saturated.
46:29So, yeah, time will tell. And as you get out there and you find new audience, you know, after the book, you're going to people are going to be, oh, yeah, that's cool. Like, I want more of this. I want to say a little bit about B.A. Do you miss working in an editorial office and having co-workers? uh i miss having co-workers yeah i do not miss going to an office and i don't have any plans to work for yeah a brand like that yeah yeah yeah yeah but are you are you in touch with some of your former co-workers like of course yeah you guys like hang out and all that yeah yeah we've had many on and it's just been so cool to see where everyone has ended up um It's such a special time.
47:18What you built there, like running the kitchen and just like the way it just changed everything about food on video, food on social. You deserve the flowers. I think it was a very important time. Thanks. One thing I want to ask you about is this essay about going to the Salton Room solo, which is like a really cool club here in Brooklyn. And you like bumped into a reader. Yeah. You were at a club, which I think I love that you wrote that essay and that you or that story comes out. Because I think that's really that's like why I love reading your work. Because it's like it's like, you know, it's conversational.
47:57It's it's like New York. It's very New York. And the Salt and Roo, I was like, that's cool. Then you went to Salt and Roo. Yeah. Well, that story, I think I told in the New York article that Ella Quintner wrote. And the context for it is really that this many years later after first, you know, putting videos, being part of videos that were on YouTube and sort of living a little bit more publicly, I'm still surprised and blown away every time I get recognized. and it is like such a thing that feels the same exact way that it did when the first time it ever happened which was none of us thought anything like that so when people come up to me and they're like hey you know it still is like it feels so special um and yeah especially that was like you know a dance party that my friend louis was djing you know during pride weekend and like so yeah that particular person was like you know definitely didn't think they were going to run to me there.
49:16So fun. But it's still for me like such a treat and especially when it's a young person who is talking about how my recipes or my cooking has influenced their life at home. I mean, that's the best. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. That sentiment. Yeah. And that you recognize how special it is. Yeah. And connects with you, IRL. You know, on the flip side, don't be creepy, listeners, when you approach these people. Yeah. Don't be creepy. I'm like trying to think if anyone. I'm not playing. I've had some creepy DMs, I guess. But people who feel like coming up to me in public generally are not. Yeah.
50:03Yeah, no. Wonderful to hear that. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Quince. After a summer on the road, including trips to Spain, Colorado, and Chicago, coming home and cooking in my own kitchen just hits different. And this year, that kitchen looks a lot nicer because I've been cooking with Quinn's cookware. Full disclosure, I use this stuff, and you should too. Their stainless steel pans heat evenly and just don't quit. And their ceramic nonstick collection makes cleanup almost insultingly easy. and their chef's knives are sharp and balanced to take care of that guacamole recipe you've been looking to perfect.
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52:07I went with the classic black pair. There are styles for everyone. Head to gooder.com slash taste to claim$10 off your first order. That's G-O-O-D-R dot com slash taste. This episode is brought to you by Wayfair. One thing nobody tells you about moving out of a one-bedroom rental apartment in Brooklyn and into an actual house upstate is that people start visiting. Lots of people. Friends, family, the occasional podcast guest who ends up staying over after a long taping day. So last year, I finally furnished a real guest room, mostly through Wayfair. I scored a bed frame dresser and a great set of Egyptian cotton sheets.
52:48The new room sure beats throwing an air mattress on the floor like I used to. I went with Wayfair Verified on the bed frame specifically, since that's the piece that actually needs to hold up, and knowing it passed their 10-point quality check on materials and functionality made that decision very easy. I'm also a Wayfair Rewards member, so I got 5 % back on the whole order, and I combed through a long scroll of the 20 million plus verified 5-star reviews before committing. These reviews include real photos from real houses, not just staged shots. It's a small thing, but having a guest room that doesn't feel like an afterthought changed how I think about hosting people.
53:30Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5 % back on every purchase and start saving on your next home upgrade. Head to Wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com. Wayfair, every style, every home. Carla, on This Is Taste, we ask guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Mm-hmm. The best fruit. I am in love with passion fruit. They have the sweet and sour tangy like a thing that is so magic. And I don't think I'd ever had a fresh passion fruit until like six years ago. And I honestly feel like they fixed something inside of me.
54:18Yeah. I mean, it's hard to find fresh passion fruit for one. And I love the idea of a fruit fixing because it really is like we know passion fruit is a flavor. it's like in pastry all over the place and it's delicious but when you hit that i've had it as well fresh it's it's like a zip of electricity inside of you it is my late winter like in february is when they're in season and it's this like treat so i'll order them i'll order a flat from baldor and then for the next two weeks it's like in the worst part of the winter i'm getting this like perfect sunshiny thing. The worst vegetable. I think like when cucumbers get gross in the crisper drawer, like the combination of like a bloomy mold with liquefaction, I think that's the worst vegetable.
55:15Yeah, like day 26 in plastic wrap is probably not the best time to throw it into a salad. Yeah, it's like semi-solid at that point. Yeah, I don't like that. No, no. What is your typical breakfast? Vyvanse and a Wilbutrin. I love it. That's, you know what? Let's keep - To all the Vyvanse girlies out there, I see you. The best dessert? The best dessert? I mean I'm sure it's something I've never had before okay right like I don't I haven't been I haven't been the only country in Asia that I've been to is India so like yeah I don't know there's there's a world yeah out there in Japan there's something sitting there that you haven't had for sure I love that answer never been you're acing this this is an A plus taste check I mean for real A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead.
56:18There was a diner on the corner of 86th and Columbus that we used to go to in a high school that everyone who worked there was like 312 years old. And six 15-year-olds could get in a booth and order two cups of coffee and like be there for six hours. It's gone. you know and like that i wish there was more i wish that was still there yeah love the memory yeah when you're craving fast food where are you going i mean i think i mentioned zong zong yeah i think zong zong uh i think xian famous foods i think burritos juarez are just like three examples i think joe and sal's on myrtle for a for a pepperoni slice i think like those are the meals that I'm like, I don't want to think about this.
57:14And I could go walk in, sit down and be eating in 10 minutes. And I crave the A1 Yang Pi from Xi 'an. Like I wrote an essay about it. I crave that. That's my number one. And when I feel the craving, it's like a magnetic pull. It's happening. I have to go. Yeah. The last thing you cook for yourself at home. I made some cold soba noodles with like a sesame paste dressing, lots of black vinegar and soy and and mama tees, hot garlic. And I had that with some cabbage and bok choy and heart boiled eggs. Oh, fun. The eggs at the end. Boom. Got to do the eggs. We're trying to get the protein. I was like, I'm worried.
58:02You know, I know. You're good. You're good. I know. I mean, you can have soba without protein for a meal. That's totally. I'm trying. I wrote an essay also about my coach, Ross. That's called Eat Sleep Protein. And sometimes he'll be like, how many grams of protein have we had today? And I'm like, how many grams are in like the four glugs of kefir that I, you know, chugged literally before I left the house to come on the train to get here today? Seven. What did Chris Ross say? Grams. Not enough. Not enough. He's like, it's not enough. Does Coach Ross have like a recommendation of how to get protein?
58:39His thing with me right now is like, can we just be consistent? Got it. Just like, let's just be consistent. That's a good mantra for protein. Yeah. No need to macro, just be consistent, do the same thing. Yes. He's like, we can't get into like the whole macro suite, but just trying to do better. Do better. I can see Coach Ross. Literally do better. Coach Ross. He's like, do better. Coach Ross is like, do better, Carla. Literally, yes. Last one, your favorite sandwich.
59:10Oh, I'll say salad sandwich. It's in the book. It's something I have always loved, like a dressed salad that you then put in between two slices of bread. And I think the one in the book has like an aged cheddar in there too. Yeah. I love salad sandwich. It reminds me of the best like subs, like Italian cold cut combo when it has like an extra amount of lettuce but like sometimes you just don't need that cold cut you just like want the lettuce and the vin totally a new thing I've been doing for my beach sandwiches is actually green cabbage instead of lettuce because it stays crispy so like the flat parts of the cabbage leaf you know if you cut a cabbage into a quarter and just peel off those those whatever that in a sandwich which has kind of become clutch at the beach.
1:00:03What's your beach of choice in New York? I love going to Reese. Reese is it, yeah. And I know Eliza's a huge fan of the beach sandwich, so I appreciate that you have your choice beach sandwich. For sure. Carla, I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining This is Taste. My pleasure.
1:00:25This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skirzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.
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From the publisher
Carla Lalli built her name in the Bon Appétit Test Kitchen before going independent and publishing two best-selling cookbooks. Yet there was much more going on in her life. Her marriage ended after 24 years, and her sparkling new book, Food Is a Feeling, tells the story through 65 recipes and 30 essays that treat cooking not as a lifestyle brand extension but as the thing that got her through it all. In this episode, Carla and Matt talk Substack life, savvy recipe shortcuts, and getting it all down in a voice that feels true to real life, not online life.
Read Carla’s Substack: Food Processing
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