822: How to Build a Booming Bakery Business at an Artisan Market with Zeena Lattouf Joy

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1:04I've made so many friends through this market, and I've actually met this woman. Her name is Nadine. She's a long-lost family member. Well, maybe not lost, but we didn't know we were extended family members. She had just moved from California. She tried our ma 'amul, took a bite of it, and was like, oh my God, this reminds me of my grandmother. This is Taste. I'm your host, Eliza Barbanel.

1:32Zina Latouf Joy is the founder and head baker of Zina Bakery, a Palestinian-American bakery based in Brooklyn. Their mamol, focaccia, and other treats are beloved mainstays of the artisan side of the Fort Green Farmers Market, and a regular part of my weekend routine. Today on the show, Zina talks about building a bakery that supports farmers in New York and the Levant, the realities of operating a bakery stand at the market, and her plans for the future. Zina Latoufjoy, this is Tace. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Thanks for having me, Eliza. I'm so happy to have you in the studio. I feel like we have had so many interactions across from the table at the farmer's market.

2:12So it's a new dynamic for us, which I love. Yes, 100 percent. I'm really happy to talk about Zina Bakery, which I think listeners of the podcast have heard me talk about how much I love your focaccia and mamoul and all of those things before. I have to ask you if you've had any pastries or baked goods yet today. um well i have but when i went to the kitchen to pack your pastries i snagged a couple of mameloo's for myself for breakfast uh mid-morning snack yeah probably um breakfast was at like you know 6 30 a.m right the life of a business owner and and mother yes do you feel like um you still have a big appetite for your own baked goods sometimes i talk to bakers who they've kind of crossed over and they don't want to eat that much sugar anymore?

3:00I do. So especially the mamul. I'm curious if there will ever be a day that I'm sick of eating mamul because it's so my palate, which is why I started the business on mamul because so many people don't know what it is. And I think it's exceptional. Other things, maybe one day, but still not yet. When I was pregnant, everything sounded horrible except mamul. So like when we're in the kitchen baking, it smelled terrible to me. But since then, I'm back on. I'm so glad that the mamul craving never left you. And I guess for someone who's listening who's maybe never had it before, can you explain like what this is and what's so special about it?

3:43Yeah. So mamul is a semolina cookie that's traditionally stuffed with either date or walnut or pistachio. And there are some other aromatics like cinnamon or cardamom or orange blossom water and very buttery like shortbread experience and what I love about mamul especially the ones that we make is that they're they're not too sweet and they go really nicely with coffee or tea they do and they almost are they feel like god I hate to say like protein packed because you know protein era but they do have not only to like the buttery shortbread quality but the fact that they're stuffed with the nuts, it does feel like it has a lot of nutrients or a lot kind of going on in the cookie.

4:25Totally. And especially the date ones, I always tell people like, this is a great pre-workout if you need a quick snack. And then of course, the walnut and pistachio are a great, maybe post-workout snack for the protein. Okay. We're not going to like hopefully go down the protein road too much. But while we're talking about just kind of the connections to the food that you make, I'm curious if you have an early childhood memory to share with me that somehow maybe encapsulates this point of view and perspective on food? Yeah, so my earliest food memories probably have to do with cooking or helping my grandmother cook at home.

5:00She lived with us starting in 2000 when we moved to America. She moved in with us. And my mom and dad were both worked full time. And so she took care of my siblings and I, but I'm the youngest, so really mostly me, and cooked for our family. And my earliest memories are really just sitting in the kitchen with her, watching her cook or getting a chance to help her. Right. Which was, you know, pass me the salt, pass me the pepper, etc. But I thought that that was so much fun. Yeah. And you're being so useful and helpful, I'm sure. Yeah, I thought I was. Did she have signature dishes that she would make?

5:35She had she did have signature dishes. One of them, our family signature dishes were often, you know, baked chicken with some sort of like stewy vegetable over rice. It's kind of a traditional Arabic or Palestinian dish. Her specialties, one of them is elayt bandora, which means sautéed tomatoes. But it's really composed of tomatoes, onion, garlic, bell peppers, or a hot pepper. She didn't like heat, so she usually didn't put something spicy in there. And that was the smell of tomatoes, onions, and garlic sauteing was the iconic, like, this is the smell of my house that I associated with my grandmother.

6:21And this is the dish that is the inspiration for the tomato, onion, focaccia that you do at the bakery, which is my favorite. I've had all of the focaccia, but there's something about the kind of, like, jammy, onion, like, moist tomato in a focaccia form that's so good to me. It's so good. And what I love about it is eláis ventura is traditionally eaten with bread. Like you dip it with bread. That's kind of the utensil. And so to put it on top of the focaccia is a really fun way to reimagine this dish. Yeah, I love seeing the kind of through line of how things can adapt and change. Have you always been drawn to baking?

7:00I have always been drawn to baking. I, when I was a child, the Food Network was like my favorite channel. And I really enjoyed both watching cooking, but mostly baking. And I later in life realized that now why I love baking is largely because of the chemistry as well. Like there's something really interesting about trying to perfect a recipe or create a recipe. And when you get it right with all the acid and the whatever that makes it up, that's probably one of the more satisfying experiences. I took chemistry in college. Didn't do well in chemistry. And I took organic chemistry. Didn't do well.

7:42Most people don't do well in organic chemistry, though. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I was average, I guess, because I didn't do well. But what I loved about it was the chemical reactions. And I felt like that's something I could carry forward with the baking. And again, it just reminds me of being with the older women in my family, whether it's my grandmother or my aunts. My mom, not so much. She really doesn't like being in the kitchen or baking. That's fair. We can't all be like the person that's passing down all the recipes. We need someone to be eating the food, too. Exactly. So can you tell me about kind of what drew you to launching Xena Bakery?

8:21What was kind of the early idea there and like the beginnings of how it kind of came together? When I started to think about Xena Bakery, I was working in a company where I was training people on how to be better communicators in the workplace. And I had studied public policy. I'd studied negotiation and leadership, and I really wanted to make an impact in Middle East policy. But at the time, I was working in the private sector. And the idea when I graduated from public policy school is if you enter the private sector, you can go into the public sector at a higher level where you can make a bigger difference.

9:02And at some point I realized, like, I don't think I'm going to be making the difference I thought I would or I had hoped I would. and when in 2023 it was like a real real moment that kind of rocked my world like it did so many people both you know in the west but of course in the arab world and in palestine and gaza um and i just felt like i couldn't keep my status quo like it just i felt like everything i was doing was no longer useful because i knew at that point i don't think i'm going to make an impact the way I had initially set out to with what I'm doing on this path. So I felt the need to come up with something different.

9:43And I always loved baking. I always loved creating things. And I felt like this could be an interesting opportunity to merge my interest in, you know, the Arab world or public policy and baking and support people who produce the ingredients. So So for me, like Zena Bakery is about supporting farmers, whether they're New York state farmers or farmers in Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon. And I often say, like, I'm not selling a cookie with Mammul specifically. I'm selling everything behind it, the story behind it, the ingredients. It feels like there's so much more that you can share when you share something that people don't really know.

10:21And now I feel like a lot of people do know Mammul, at least in my little micro community at Fort Greene Park. Maybe because of us, maybe because, I don't know, Sahadis and the other the guys on Atlantic Avenue that are selling great sweets. There's one like great British bake off challenge where they all make mamul. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. A lot of people mentioned that episode to me in the beginning when I first started Zena Bakery. So, yeah, I would say that the inception of Zena Bakery was a combination of me having always wanted to do something related to Arab policy. And then when 2023 hit, things changed drastically.

10:56And I felt like I just I had to it was an immediate gut reaction. Yeah, I'm very sympathetic to being in that mentality and needing to do something different. And it's interesting because a lot of people talk about baking is like, well, just make like during the pandemic, for example. Right. Oh, like make banana bread and like you don't have to worry about things. And I think some people talk about baking as a way of maybe disengaging isn't the right word, but kind of like smooth brain activity. But it seems for you, rather, it's connecting very deeply into like culture and identity and like being able to share that with all kinds of people.

11:29Absolutely. I had and I still do in a way, but now I feel like I'm manifesting the energy. I had so much pent up energy and frustration and I just didn't know where to put it. And the topic of Palestine is extremely emotional for me. And it was very emotional growing up because I am kind of racially ambiguous. Like you look at me and you're like, you're Italian, you're Spanish, you're Greek, you're this, you're that, doesn't matter. And of course, growing up in the States in a post 9-11 world, you know, it worked to be able to blend in the ways that I did. But it was a very emotional discussion.

12:05And it's because it was emotional for the people that were closest to me. Like my grandmother never wanted to talk about Palestine. My mom doesn't really want to talk about it. It's something that is this sort of cloud that was sometimes there when we were growing up. But we never directly talked about it. Or when we did, it was sadness and loss. So for me, it is a very emotional situation. I felt like I didn't know how to control all the emotion and baking in a way for me was a way to channel it. Like if I can just produce things with my hands and share them with other people, maybe that could make some sort of tiny butterfly effect that would increase awareness or just allow me to fuel all of this energy that I cannot control in a way that's productive.

12:55Right. Like you're making something. Yes. And it's physical. You know, it's for me, I love cooking and baking because you're producing a physical item that people consume and it nourishes them. Hopefully it nourishes them. And then you have to make it again. And hopefully it comes out like the same way every time. But there's kind of an iterative process that maybe is kind of useful as well. Yes. I mean, it's always in a bakery, we always hope it's going to come out the same way. And it's very difficult to control all the factors because humidity and heat and the fridge may be two degrees colder, which with bread could stop the proofing process altogether.

13:33Or two degrees hotter, which again with bread could overproof the dough. But that's the fun of it. That's where the chemistry comes in and thinking about the numbers and how we can constantly tweak them based on the environment that we're in at the time. Right. Cast iron has been a staple in kitchens for generations, and Smithy is bringing that tradition into the modern kitchen. They craft vintage-inspired cast iron that, unlike the rough and bumpy cookware you may be used to, is polished smooth for a naturally nonstick cooking surface that only gets better with time. As a listener of This Is Taste, we're excited to offer you free U.S.

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17:13These reviews include real photos from real houses, not just staged shots. It's a small thing, but having a guest room that doesn't feel like an afterthought changed how I think about hosting people. Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5 % back on every purchase and start saving on your next home upgrade. Head to Wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com. Wayfair, every style, every home. So I want to talk about the Fort Greene Farmers Market or the kind of, would you call it the artisan side of the market? Yeah, it is the artisan side. Yeah. So I have lived in Fort Greene for probably seven years and definitely since the pandemic, definitely over the past two or three years, the DeKalb side of the market, which is this artisan side of the market, has, I don't think it even, it was like four times bigger than it used to be.

18:06and the whole kind of larger neighborhood on market day. There's all kinds of people selling things. And it's been really interesting and kind of cool to see like what, who is selling there. And I don't really know anything about, like, I imagine maybe it's separate from GrowNYC, but how were you drawn to trying to sell there? Like, how did you kind of get into the market? What's happening? So I got into this market because I was Googling, like 2024, I started the business, start Googling, where can I sell my stuff? And GrowNYC is the most attractive place. It's the majority of the New York farmers markets or GrowNYC markets.

18:44And of course, Union Square is the iconic New York farmers market. Very difficult to get into that one. And you have to have proof of really large volume. But at the time, most of my products were not grown in New York. And the GrowNYC market requires you to be using ingredients that are grown within something like a 25 or 30 mile radius of New York City. Yeah. And I was only selling mamul at the time. So it was dates, walnuts, pistachios, clarified butter, semolina, like none of this stuff, besides maybe butter, is going to be found in the New York area. so the Brooklyn pop-up which is the name of the overarching organization that is the artisan side came up and I applied to them and I was admitted or accepted and I did my first pop-up with them I think it was April or May of 2024 and since then I mean even at the time that I had started there were several food vendors uh you know for green granola lisbanata at the time several others and now it's huge like the food side of the the Brooklyn pop-up the DeKalb Avenue side is robust it's bustling which is really cool yeah it used to be mostly like home goods or jewelry or candle I have this like the the West African basket guys like all of the baskets in my home are from them like they it would be more of that and it was more rare I think to see food and now it seems like it's maybe 50-50 food even or more.

20:22I'm not sure about the numbers exactly, but I would say that's probably accurate. I mean, I would say the food just has a big presence, whether it's really 50 % of the booths or not. Yeah, it's bustling. There's so many great food vendors. And a lot of the people that are the food vendors, I have gotten to know, of course, because we're all selling there every Saturday. But a lot of us also produce out of the same shared kitchen. So that's probably maybe how word got out really quickly about the Brooklyn pop-up as being a great place because when you go to this commercial kitchen and you see everybody else selling at the Fort Greene market, then you're also going to do it.

21:01And that's kind of how it's compounded. Yeah. Okay. So I'm so curious about like the logistics of selling at the market. What time does your day start on Saturday? What does it look like for you? So Zena Bakery's day starts at 4 a.m. on Saturday. My day when I used to be the one that baked and sold, at that time we were producing a lot less. So I would get to the kitchen at about 5.30 in the morning and make much smaller. Everything was less when it was just Zena doing everything. Now we have a team of four of us that are in the kitchen. But the people who are doing the baking on early Saturday morning usually get to the kitchen at 4.

21:39and that's when we start baking our focaccia and our kai, the semolina bread that we've recently started selling. It's like a beautiful loaf of bread. It is. It's very, yeah, it's a beautiful oblong oval type situation. And then what's kind of like production numbers you trying to hit now? When I started everything, but let's just say focaccia because that's a good comparison. When I started making the focaccia, I was actually making it at home and I would go to the commercial kitchen to make some of our items, but I didn't have enough time to do everything. So I was making four pans, like the, they're called half sheet trays, four half sheet trays at home.

22:20And then, then I did eight half sheet trays. And at that time, eight half sheet trays is a lot to bake out of one's own home. And so in terms of the dough storage, because I do a cold ferment, And that was really tricky. So I would actually come home from the kitchen and then start mixing the dough. And then I would put it in the fridge for whatever, as many hours as I could. And then at 1 a.m., take it out, put it in the trays. Then 3 a.m., do a fold. Then 5 a.m., start baking. And then be out the door by 7.30 so I can go to the market. Zena. I know. I didn't realize that that was ridiculous at the time, especially out of my tiny East Village kitchen.

23:04Right. And then you probably have room for like no groceries in your fridge because you're storing all of the dough in there. Absolutely. Yeah. Everything has to be out of the fridge at that point. And then so then it got to be eight was too many. So then I went to the sort of doing them out of the commercial kitchen and I would do four full sheet trays, which is about eight home trays. And we kept growing, growing. And the maximum that I could do by myself was 12. And at that point, I couldn't bake enough in the morning and then get out the door out of the kitchen commercial kitchen door to get to the markets so um that's when started hiring people our whole production changed but now we're making about 60 full sheet trays that'd be like 120 of the ones i made at home that must feel so good to look at how much more you're able to produce now it's it feels really good it feels like the idea for xena bakery to support farmers in Blah de Cham.

23:58That's like, you know, our, I guess, tagline is based in Brooklyn, born in Blah de Cham, which is the Arabic term for the Levant. So to be able to support those farmers and in New York farmers, it feels like now we're getting just on the cusp of our volume of products that we're selling, where we can start to actually meaningfully support farmers in both places, which is really exciting for us because it's just the beginning, really. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So is there a long-term goal to have a brick and mortar? Absolutely. Brick and mortar has been the goal from the beginning. As anybody can imagine and probably knows, New York real estate is really difficult to rent.

24:39It's expensive. There's all these permitting and zoning issues. So I've been waiting for the right time, which I know somebody might say there's never a right time. And I think that's true. But we've been trying to find the right time and hopefully we're getting close to having a brick and mortar because we'll be able to make a bigger impact, produce more, serve more people, more days a week. It'll feel like we can really start to create the community that we are creating now, but in a way that might be even more meaningful in the next few years. Yeah, it's really interesting to see the way that, and I'm curious for your perspective, of the farmer's market and the community that it provides because there are people who come every week and you know I wait in line at the stand and I see people wanting to have conversations with you guys but obviously there's more people behind them there's not a lot of room on the walking area like it seems that there's a lot of potential there and then also obviously limitations absolutely lots of opportunity lots of limitations but it's really it's so magical like just what you describe is we've created, I've made so many friends through this market.

25:50And I've actually met this woman. Her name is Nadine. She's a long lost family member. Well, maybe not lost, but we didn't know we were extended family members. And we met through the market. And the way we met was she tried our ma 'amul. She had just moved from California. She tried our ma 'amul, took a bite of it and was like, oh my God, this reminds me of my grandmother. And that day, my mom and dad had visited me at the market. And so she started chatting with them because I was too busy to be able to talk to her at that time. And my parents know so many more people, of course, than I do. And they said, well, who's your family?

26:29What's your grandmother's name? What's your parents' names? And we realized that her grandmother was related to my maternal grandfather. And during the NECPA, her grandmother took her aunts, because her mom was at that time in college in Lebanon. Her grandmother took her aunts to walked 14 miles to my grandfather's home and she lived there indefinitely when she was kicked out of her home. Wow. Can you believe it? No, I have actual goosebumps. That's so like the universe at work and the fact that, you know, I think people often talk about history and personal identity like wrapped up in food. But to be able to like have a bite of something and taste that family connection is so powerful.

27:15It's incredible. And I had when I set out to start Zena Bakery, I had never in my life imagined that I would make a connection like I have with Nadine or that. And many people have said they take they try our mamul and they say, oh, my gosh, reminds me of my grandmother's. I never thought that I would be able to recreate that. It's my grandmother's recipe. Right. So it doesn't surprise me, I guess. But it's incredible. It must have been really incredible for your parents also to be there and be like helping facilitate that connection. Oh, totally. My parents are my biggest supporters. Every Saturday, they text me at the end of the day.

27:48How was your day? Oh, you know, how are things going? They text me every Saturday morning at 5 a.m. because they know I'm awake. They're awesome. I think if my parents helped facilitate a long-lost family connection like that, we would talk about it every time we were together until the end of time probably. Yeah, totally. Wow, that's so beautiful. I guess since we're talking about mamul, I don't want you to kind of give away your grandma's whole recipe, but I'm curious if there are any steps or techniques that you think really make the mamul taste so special. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this.