828: Charlie Mitchell Is Why the Tasting Menu Is Changing

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1:04I used to say a joke that it's important that you can leave dinner here and still want to have sex. You know, like your body isn't like gross and you're like falling asleep in an Uber. Like if you want to drink that much and fall asleep in an Uber, that's up to you. But I think like the amount of food is also intentional from like the chef. You know what I mean? I think that's very important. I've had some meals, great ones, but I've definitely unbuttoned my pants at the table a few times. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard.

1:55On this episode, we talk about growing up in Detroit, his interest in Japan, and how he views the evolution of the tasting menu. I hope you enjoy this episode.

2:09Charlie Mitchell, welcome to This is Taste. It's so great to see you. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to see where this conversation goes because we both were raised in Michigan. I love speaking with a fellow Michigander. Yeah. We'll go there. And, of course, we'll talk about Saga and your work there. I had a meal a couple months ago and still thinking about it. It's really one of my highlights. Thank you. We'll get into your philosophy about the tasting menu because I think you're doing something very progressive. Before we get to all that, though, when you're off the clock in New York, where are you dining out these days?

2:44You know, I feel like it changes. I feel like I get hooked on, like, trends of what I like to eat right now. I think right now I've been really on a steakhouse kick, to be honest. Anything that's reminiscent of a steakhouse. I started back eating, low-key, I started back eating beef this year. Outside of work. At work, I always try it because I have to. So I've been obsessed with going to steakhouses a lot lately. Yeah, are there any that, are these like the modern steakhouses or the classics? Are you going to Keens? Yeah, I've done a couple of classics too. I've been to Keens for the first time recently.

3:16Went to Peter Lugers not too long ago. but also I like Diane Baloo's new steakhouse a lot with Teddor I go there probably a little bit too much I feel like the chef speaking to the chef via steakhouse like what Baloo's doing is pretty cool yeah well what about with Saga I know your menu is rotating somewhat and it's been a couple months what's on the menu recording this in early August what's exciting you I know you have a couple tasting menus, a couple styles, like lengths. But just tell us what's going on at Saga. Yeah, we actually just changed the menu to summer, like in the last two weeks.

4:00So, like, you're still inside of the first, I don't know, the first month of the menu, I feel like, is always being tweaked and is changing a lot. And it's always very exciting. So, when we do menu changes at Saga, we flip the entire menu.

4:10Charlie Mitchell:Wow. So it's kind of rare that anything, it was happening a couple of times, but it's kind of rare that anything really makes over to the next seasonal change. So it's always just like a lot for the team. And even for myself, like for the first couple of weeks, I'm kind of still figuring out like what dishes I like, you know, because it kind of comes out like, like one large dish in a way, like how we do the tasting menu. So I'm excited about it all. So, you know, I think we did like the fish and rice situation a couple of menus in a row. We switched that up. Now we do rice with the scallops is one of my favorite dishes.

4:45And then we do this like tau fish dish with butter beans that I love. I feel like I don't get a lot of beans and rice and tasting meals these days. So there are two dishes that really are like a little warm hug, if you will, in the middle of a tasting meal. That makes a lot of sense. I think the way I saw the spring menu was just like playing with format and it was very progressive. When you're working on a spring menu and you're building a summer, how do you find the time to do both? We don't. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like you should, but like, you know, we're not living in a dream world, right? We're not like, we don't have like 50 cooks, you know what I mean?

5:25But we, I mean, it takes, I mean, it takes experience, you know what I mean? Part of it is like being a chef and like being a little bit ahead. Like you kind of know what vegetables are coming. and you kind of, you know, talking to your providers about what's coming in season. And then you just cook off of a, you know, you kind of plan it out and cook off of a filling. You know what I mean? I think sometimes spring and summer can feel very similar. So I like to try to make distinctive things. Okay, what am I trying to, like how do we make a distinctive, like, change between how the menu kind of feels.

5:54You know, less about, but the ingredients too as well. Are there any summer products, ingredients that you just don't touch, that you just don't mess with? It used to be. I've gotten better at it. You know, I'm not a big tomato guy. I was wondering. Because I was like, fine dining and tomatoes sometimes don't quite fit. But it's like in summer you have to use tomatoes. So I find ways to use it where I love. I'm not the biggest eggplant guy. But I feel like eggplant and summer kind of go well together. So I'll find ways to sneak it in. But it's rare that I do like an eggplant-like centered dish or something like that.

6:28Those are probably two that come top of mind. What I liked about my meal at Saga was that through the many courses and the progression of the proteins and everything, it was a sizable amount of food, but I felt great. I want to touch on that because I think it feels very progressive to offer a tasting menu and have your diner not feel like they're being inundated with dairy, being inundated with luxury. How does Saga represent the modern tasting menu? Well, I think we do in a number of ways. I think just off the way the restaurant looks and feels when you walk in, like how we treat you, the music that plays, and the vibe in there, it starts there.

7:10And I think dining pacing is another big one, right? Like generations. Some people want to sit and eat for four hours, but most people my age may want that experience, but you want to be out of there under three, two and a half really, but under three right so i think that being a priority to us is important in the experience um and then i think the meal itself like how it how it eats um how you feel um i think represents like a more modern take on a tasting meal you know i mean i think you talk about the amount of food that was something that was really important to me it was very intentional you know i used to say a joke that it's important that you can leave dinner here and still want to have sex you know like your body isn't like gross you know like falling asleep in the uber like if you you know if you want to drink that much and fall asleep in the uber that's up to you but i think like the food should be the amount of food is also intentional from like the chef you know i mean i think that's very important i've had some meals great ones but i've definitely unbuttoned my pants at the table a few times it feels that way sometimes yeah it comes down to just that that final lamb three ways with that sauce and you've already had everything and it's it's yeah i mean i i feel uh let's talk about the quantity of you because you are like what are your two tasting styles right now like because it feels like a lot a lot of food yeah it can be but we offer the we do the shorter menu which is about six courses and then like well even right now we have terraces and open times we offer even a shorter menu on the terrace if you want things about four courses than six and our main menu is like around 10 courses.

8:50Yeah, yeah. But however, in my opinion, the 10 course like sounds like more food than it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really the courses are for like more for a dining time thing. Like, hey, if it's early in the week and you don't want to sit for that long, you can have a shorter menu kind of getting it out. But I think that the 10 course is designed for it to be like to not crush you with food either. We spoke briefly during service, but the server was very clear that the spring menu that I had was inspired by Japan. And I want to hear from you about that because you haven't been to Japan. And that doesn't matter.

9:23And I think this is part of the modern tasting menu and from aggressive cooking and award-winning cooking is you don't have to have done the stage for three years to represent a culture. How did Japan weave into that menu? Yeah, well, I think there's a line you have to write. I think if you want to dive too far into someone else's cuisine, you may have to go spend time there. um but it really started organically like through work through work experience and through like working with like the products and ingredients from japan and sourcing you know when i worked for chef ryan in dc was really when i got like a real crash course on working with like yeah for ingredients around the world um and then even at clover hill it kind of happened organically like i was at first i was trying to work with as much local stuff as possible yeah and i was having like complications with like quality and just working relationship and And then that's when I hit up, you know, the connection I had to like the Japanese fish purveyor.

10:17And then through just working, we just had such a good relationship with like knowing what we're trying to do, seeing how they stand behind what they do. And then I just kind of like got a little obsessed with it at that time. And then it became like a huge part of the way that I cook. And then I think, you know, on top of that, like eating a lot of like Japanese food and sushi and things like that really helped me with restraint and cooking. you know like i think growing up eating a lot of soul food and then being trained a lot of french food those two things can be very like not a lot of restraint and like the like the palate you know so i think it's been it's helped me really like kind of like rein in like how i season food that makes sense charlie i like that mentality what was a dish from the spring menu that felt really represented japan at least in technique me uh in my opinion i think well i don't know about and too far into technique because we kind of mix and match a little bit but i think like our you know the first course in spring i think we did like the shima aji with the strawberry and and uh basil and then we did like the pasta with like lavender and i just think like the subtlety of we have some dishes that are really big flavors and like spice and fat and things like that but i think those dishes were very nuanced with like really subtle flavors that really challenge your palate in a way that I feel, you know, when you're out having like great sushi, we really have to let, you can really like taste all of your food, you know?

11:43Yeah. So those two dishes really, the subtlety and the nuance there really was inspired from that. When you have sushi in the city and you want to really splash out, do you have a spot?

11:55I think I try them all. I used to love sushi or Suda a lot. I used to go there a lot. I think Nakazawa was my first fancy sushi in the city. Yeah. But recently I went to Sushi Show and that place was crazy. I've always wanted to go. Yeah. It was crazy. How was hospitality? Was it pretty cool? Yeah, it was pretty buttoned up. The buttoned up place. Cast iron has been a staple in kitchens for generations. And Smithy is bringing that tradition into the modern kitchen. They craft vintage inspired cast iron that unlike the rough and bumpy cookware you may be used to, is polished smooth for a naturally nonstick cooking surface that only gets better with time.

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14:50Try it. Style it. Make it yours. because the right pair doesn't just show up, it shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest croc store today. Well, let's head back to Detroit. I want to hear the story of getting into cooking. My research about you is that you were working as a valet at a restaurant and you found yourself in the kitchen. I love that. What drew you to that job? That's a good one to dig up. I don't know where you got that one. Is it true? Yeah. Okay, okay. Actually, what happened was, yeah, I was doing valet at the hotel, and I was actually shy about trying to get a job in the kitchen.

15:36And what actually happened was my best friend at the time asked a sous chef for a stage because we would, like, pull his car every day. And that's how I got my first stage in that kitchen. So the sous, you were pulling his car, and what do you say to him? Well, my homie asked, and he was like, sure, like, send him in tomorrow. and I had to go buy a knife and a peeler and stuff because I didn't have anything. I never worked in a kitchen before. And then I showed up and it was just not what I thought it was going to be. That was at 24 Grill? Yeah, yep. That was my first gig. It's a nice place. It was nice.

16:06I thought it was super fine dining at the time. It was like sushis on the plate and specials and all kind of crazy stuff. So it was really fancy to me back then. No, and I think it's in the Midwestern sense. In Detroit, it's nice. Yeah, it was nice. It's nice. And so what are those first like shifts like for you? I mean, you clearly connected with it in some way. Yeah, I think that, you know, I learned a lot at that first place, right? It was like, obviously, like my connection to food and like playing with food and serving food. Like it was really, it was like, wow, like you do really enjoy this.

16:40And I was really found myself, you know, very intrigued with learning and the experience of it. but at the same time you know that kitchen pushed me to seek out a more fine dining kitchen yeah you know because it was really like the environment of fine dining that drew me towards it and like the professionalism how the kitchen ran yeah that that first go around gave me a crash course into like crazy restaurant stuff yeah um and it was a little bit much yeah i can't imagine like just seeing the way the brigade worked and yeah was there some screaming from time to time yeah and just like a lot of that kitchen had a lot of older cooks yeah and i think for a young curious cook you're looking you're trying to latch on to people who teach you stuff you know i'm saying and i think in that kitchen once you got underneath the belly of it was like a lot of older cooks who were just kind of like doing it just for a job just to do it and then so it was like a mixed culture of like trying to learn from these guys and these guys are just like drinking beer out the low boy you know i'm saying and like which is cool but it's not what you're looking for like 20 years old you know i mean definitely not and you you definitely felt there was a craft there were you artistic as a kid like were you doing like handwork and stuff like that i wouldn't say so you know i mean i think i was playful with food right like growing up cooking yeah you know i always like claim like i played with the kitchen cabinets a lot right because you're like all right trying to make dinner at 13 so you're just like playing with every spice and seasoning whatever your mom has in the house.

18:07That's fun. So creative in that way, but I don't think, like I wasn't like a drawer or anything like that. Like, no. So interesting. I mean, I think chefs and especially fine dining chefs come from all sorts of backgrounds. But you know, this work that you do, it takes precise handwork. I mean, and you learn that over time. And I think it leads to, you know, you move on to EMP, Bettany, which is really cool, that part. And then John, we mentioned. So what are those jobs like? and you had some externships as well and some stages. Yeah. Some great places. So what's it like entering those kind of higher profile places?

18:44Well, I mean, it was crazy for me, right? Like I moved to New York in 2016 and I had about, I worked for my first chef about three years at that time. And, you know, I came here thinking I knew how to cook. At least I knew my way around the kitchen. And my first job was betting, like you said, and it was just like not what I thought it was going to be. Tell me why. The intensity was unreal, you know. The intensity and also, like, the expectation to, like, perform and do things the right way, which you kind of thought, you know, you kind of like to think that whatever restaurant you work at, you do have that level of standard.

19:20And so you walk to a place like that and you're like, nah. No, I don't. Who took you under a wing there? It was too much going on there for, I think, to be that tight. I mean, I have some sous-chips I was really tight with. Like, my buddy Mark Howard, I would say, was probably the one who made me, who I chose to work there for because he was, like, a good, he was one of the best cooks I've ever seen at that time. Yeah. So I really latched on to him at that time. But, yeah, coming to New York from Detroit, it was, like, a huge transition of, like, the work culture, the standards, and, like, how intense it was.

19:51You know? And then you get to EMP and you really saw, like, it was so professional. I think that it really kind of threw me for a loop you know what I mean were you like nervous before shifts like going in and having to work with these in these systems that were very foreign of course you are it was a nightmare going to work oh man you know what I'm saying like I mean when you're adjusting to it yeah you're like scared you don't want to go to work you're like yeah I mean some kids are crying before work you know what I mean like it can really be you definitely have to give yourself a pep talk sometimes yeah When you know the day is going to be rough, usually no matter what you do, it's going to be kind of a rough day.

20:32Do you find in that system some enjoyment in it? Yeah, I used to, for sure. I mean, because it kept me straight. It kept me disciplined. I think I enjoyed that about it. I enjoyed other people all trying to do something together as a team and kind of trying to conquer the day. So there are definitely things to enjoy about it. and then you have times where it's not so enjoyable, right? Like, you know, any of those times where you feel like somebody is, like, doing it just because, like, just because they're just trying to make a point or just because they just want to change energy in a space, those times are like, all right, man, like, nah, we don't have to do this right now.

21:12Nah, so a decade later you have your own kitchen, and it's a very open kitchen. I mean, you can, you just, like, it's, you know, it's literally at the 63rd floor. I mean, it's a crazy space, and I should have said that from the start, but it's like one of the most stunning rooms you can dine in on the East Coast. But you can't really hide as a chef or as a cook there. So I had witnessed a lot of smiles. I felt people were having a good time. I mean, you have your tough days. So let's just go back 10 years and to the present, let's go back and forth. How did you foster a culture that was much different?

21:51Well, it takes a lot of work, to be honest. right like throughout your career you you kind of grew kind of grew up in those kitchens and then like when you're a young sous chef depending on the chef you work for you're still you're kind of taught to manage in that way as well right so when you're a young sous chef like the easiest thing to do is to just be like aggressive and abrasive and like mean because like you you're young you don't really know how to teach it and like so you're frustrated every time somebody can't get something right and so you're just like screaming and shit all the time you know yeah um And over time, you just kind of learn.

22:21And for me, the biggest difference was like I looked back on my career and I saw how many of my like very, very talented peers like didn't turn into what I thought that they would. And I blame that a lot on the environments we had. You know what I mean? I think like it's just not for everybody. Like not everyone can learn in that environment just because I could. Right. Just because like it didn't bother me and I had thick skin and I could just, yeah, whatever and keep going. A lot of kids couldn't. You know, so for me, it's important that I don't have that kind of kitchen. Right. Like if it's about food, it's about food and we can teach you how to cook and how to work.

22:56You know, if you decide that what we're trying to do, you don't want you don't you're not trying to do, then that's OK. But I think it's important at the environment that everyone who wants to learn what we do can. Yeah, it's important. Right. And, you know, anyone who I think is going to make me scream at them, I just don't hire them. It's like it's pretty simple. that is a great tip yeah if they that is amazing like uh i'm processing that like you you hire people who like aren't gonna make you scream like yeah and you can you can tell sometimes if you interview and size right you can tell out this this person they don't they're too far from like getting what we want to do and like they're not gonna they're just gonna cause problems and like you just don't bring those people into the kitchen and it makes it a little bit easier not to be that That is modern.

23:43So how does Clover Hill happen? I mean, it's a short-lived restaurant, highly decorated restaurant. You win the James Beard Award for New York State, Michelin recognition. What takes you to like the kind of no man's land Brooklyn? I lived around there. Was like not the like place you would open like a hot restaurant? Yeah, it kind of honestly just happened. So, like, the back story is when they were originally opening, I was good friends with the original chef because I worked for him. He was a sous chef at Bettany. We were A &P at the same time. So we had a close relationship. And I was trying to move out the country.

24:25Really? And his sous chef at the time had a connection to a restaurant out the country. And so I was helping him open the original Clover Hill. And I was working part time to say, let's move out the country. and throughout being there like obviously i was i was opening it i knew ownership we kind of caught we kind of got cool and then shut down for covet like three months into being open and so i was there when it shut down and then let's say you know after covet slows down so it says a year and a half later one of the owners just sent me a text and was like yo what are you up to i'm trying to reopen clover hill and i was like what are you texting me for and he's like yo let's get coffee and then we got coffee and he asked me if I would do it.

25:09And I was like, at the time I was about to move out the country again. And I was like, well, you can move away and kind of go cook and just kind of, you know, nerd out a little bit or take this potential risk and run this restaurant broken and see what happens. And so at the time it was a good fit. And I thought the space was really unique. Yeah. And I thought it would be a good time. And honestly, my thought was like, well, if this place sucks, like nobody will ever find out. Like it's all the way in Brooklyn Heights. If we close in eight months, like no one will ever know I was here and it won't be like a blemish on like my resume.

25:45And if it works, it works. So that was actually how I was offered that job and why I took it. So the chef had left. Yeah, yeah. They didn't see out of eye about something. I think he wanted to cook vegan food or something like that. So they weren't aligned and we were a little bit aligned on like trying to make it, we knew it would be tough trying to make it a fine dining restaurant in that neighborhood. Like brunch did really great over there. But like for dinner, it was really challenging. And we knew that was a challenge, but we just wanted to do it anyways. Yeah. And it was like 305 for tasting.

26:17Eventually, yeah. We didn't start that expensive, but we ended on a menu that was 305. Yeah, I remember that vividly because it is like cool that you could command those prices in Brooklyn Heights. Yeah, I mean, it's challenging, but it was more like, it was such, it's almost like a remote location. So I was looking at it more like, hey, this is kind of like a destination restaurant. Like if you're going to come from Midtown and come eat here, like Jesus Christ, it better be worth it. Better be worth it. And you got to price it accordingly because it's going to be worth it. But it's short lived.